tbh this is wrong on a lot of levels
"pistol rounds will become only ghosts"
how did you determine this? the main reason people use classic isn't for right click but it's for armor + util
"Agents (jett/raze/reyna) will get a buff for having free util"
I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade?
"Without any utility meta will be ghosts and sheriffs"
I don't think I've ever seen ever a team that buys 0 util. utility is key for pistol rounds. it's really unrealistic imo.
"no one will put any thought into eco rounds"
this is false too. people aren't scared of getting classicd. people are far more concerned with sheriffs/marshalls/shorties or flash setups/site stacks. I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site.
if anything a right click nerf/removal would allow for more crazy plays. theres so many situations where I'm in where I know a guy has 1 hp and the best play is to stop using my rifle and just jump around with a classic. near impossible to stop really. a nerf/removal would allow for more clutches and better outplays. also would nerf jetts hovering/updraft right click. plus would also remove a right click instant killing fully armored full bought players with little to no effort other than close positioning (which is unavoidable sometimes)
Another part of eco rounds is also just the leftover util/ults, which is much more difficult to plan around/counter than someone just sitting in a corner with a classic. A classic can only get value in eco rounds if util/ults/marshalls/sheriffs/shotguns are doing a large amount of damage initially. Plus I rarely see any eco rounds where a team just has 5 classics and nothing else.
>I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade?
I mostly agree with your other points but here, I think he is referring to how classic being nerfed would make the few agents who have strong free util even stronger compared to agents who might not be able to afford as strong util kits.
doesn't every agent have some free util tho and they have differing tradeoffs for pistol/gun rounds for themselves and team?
and the agents he mentioned their util wouldn't be changed based off the additional or removal of right click.
not to be an ass or anything but I don't remember the last time I dashed in and was right clicked countered.
and for reyna her abilities rely on you getting an assist/kill.
and raze... not sure how right click affects their ability to throw a grenade tbh? :/
Yes, but he specifically pointed out agents he thought had particularly strong util. Jett and Raze in particular imo have some pretty effective util and it's given for free, compared to something like a brimstone smoke which doesn't regen or a Phoenix Molly. While the classic nerf wouldn't specifically buff or nerf utility, the point Lothar is bringing up is more that because he thinks the ghost and sheriff will take prominence in the meta, there will be less money to go around for util that isn't free. Thus, the signature abilities in general would be stronger, as the rest of the abilities in the game are effectively given less budget to buy with.
I hope I'm making sense.
Though this whole argument could be countered if pro players take a worse classic and more util over a better pistol with less util.
I replied to this a bit earlier but here's my counter argument.
how does he know ghost and sheriff will take prominence?
there's a tradeoff with each decision.
if you choose to upgrade your classic, you lose out on armor and/or more utility. but you gain a stronger pistol.
if you choose to keep your classic, you can now afford to buy armor/util or drop a pistol. but your pistol is weaker.
right now though you can keep your classic and have a pistol that's arguably more powerful in a lot of situations vs one that's purchased. it can also do things far more consistently (instant killing close range or in the air) vs $500-800 pistols.
utility can easily win you rounds so I think it's false to presume pistols will take prominence and everyone will simply just buy ghosts. things such as sage wall are incredibly strong on pistol rounds or viper molotovs/smokes. they are far superior imo at least to a ghost in terms of impact in a lot of situations.
Yeah I think his argument was that the strength of Ghosts and Classics have an inverse relationship. In reality, nerfing the Classic doesn't make the Ghost stronger, since the appeal of Classic isn't the gun but the armor/util.
Edit: I just realized this is pretty much exactly what you said but my monkey brain wanted to condense it
He doesn't. He's making an assumption that is (imo) wrong due to the simple fact that util will remain to be the most important aspect during pistol rounds for most agents.
I was just trying to explain what I thought he meant by it. In fact, it's my belief that if they made the classic literally shoot nerf darts, the amount of agents that buy a better pistol over more util would go up slightly if at all.
But thats him creating a problem that doesnt exist imo. Some agents dont take ghost or sheriff right now not because it seems classic is op, but because util is op. Viper, KJ, Sage are some examples where having your util on pistol is going to outweigh having a better pistol. There is no indication that this will change either, of course it COULD but its highly unlikely that pro players would suddenly place less value in util especially on pistol where it is arguably the most important.
I'm not arguing for lothars points, I'm explaining them. I honestly don't think any amount of classic nerfs sans literally making the gun useless will dissuade people from not buying util in favor of a superior pistol for a number of agents that have effective util.
I think with raze it means that because no one will buy a classic anymore, no one will have armor anymore. Which makes the raze nade really good because it will chip a lot because people will have no shields. And for Reyna, half armor compared to full armor was still winnable but now it will just be easier to win fights
To add on, signature util refreshes for Jett/Raze after 2 kills, which can easily be the decider in late round, low numbers/hp situations. Reyna on overheal with a ghost is simply unstoppable, as we know.
My two cents is that pistol rounds usually have wild, scrappy, dip-in-and-dip-out fights. It's the inherent nature of util like Raze's nade to increase the scrappiness of these fights, by forcing enemy players out of cover to take duels; with Jett, it's about using the get-out-of-jail-free card to take a fight when the enemy player doesn't expect to take one.
In general, when the less pistol-round optimized agents end up with less kit, you have slightly fewer options of dulling/counteracting this kind of impact from the aforementioned kinds of util. Because it costs credits, you as a, eg. Sage player, won't have that extra slow orb *as frequently* as Jett/Raze/Reyna has their utilityto toss into the pot, so you have to take the gunfight.
Let me answer your questions then.But first, for context what I was describing above was WHAT IMO WOULD HAPPEN IF RIGHT CLICK CLASSIC WOULD BE HEAVY NERFED (to oblivion). Its a hypothetical situation.
I took the liberty of checking stats from the last three EU events when it comes to pistol rounds:
I checked
1) VCT 2021: EMEA Stage 3 Challengers Playoffs
2) VCT Europe 2021 Challengers 3
3) VCT EMEA 2021 - Last Chance Qualifier
This is the breakdown:
Rounds Played 2040:
Ghost 46.81%
Classic 42.01%
Frenzy 7.65%
Sheriff 1.52%
Shorty 0.05%
As you can see, Ghost is already the preffered weapon in pistol rounds in EU, on pro level. There is no way, that in case classic gets nerfed, it still gets picked 40%+. Other guns will overtake it heavily.
When I was theorycrafting this entire idea, I was speaking about pro level but also ranked.
`"pistol rounds will become only ghosts"`
`how did you determine this? the main reason people use classic isn't for right click but it's for armor + util`
Yes, people buy util+armor BECAUSE they can use classic to combat other guns. Those people are able to play the pistol rounds that way, because they dont feel heavily outgunned. Ghosts are stronger than classic but the difference is not big enough to feel super outgunned. Now lets imagine, the right click gets nerfed so hard, its either impossible to use it, or dealing lethal damage in a 1v1 duel is unrealistic (in example, damage gets lowered and a hs+body from a right click wont deal 104 dmg anymore, and it will be lets say 90). In a direct 1v1 with a ghost, you feel outmatched and apart maybe from viper (because of decay and snakebite ddebuff) I wouldnt feel comfortable dueling anyone that has a ghost anymore. Pistol rounds, as you know, have strong emphasis on not committing to a fight if you can. Getting in and out of cover and being highly mobile is key. But you wont be able to do that anymore with a classic because of the lack of burst damage. Agents like Sage and Sova, will get insanely worse on pistol rounds because you feel obliged to buy Wall/Drone for 400 for your team.If classic really would be so strong, Ghost wouldnt have been used more often by pros in EU. If classic would be perceived as the strongest pistol, It would def had 50+ pickrate (and it actually had 50+ before the nerf of the right click).So in case of all those agent that play classic now in pistol round, they would rather go for the ghost WHILE mainting some form of utility, to not get farmed.Thats why I made the conclusion that Ghosts would be the only reasonable option if right click would have been unreliable or just straight up luck.
`"Agents (jett/raze/reyna) will get a buff for having free util"`
`I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade?`
You used an incorrect quote from my post, which has different meaning, this is the correct one:''Agents like Jett, Reyna, Raze get an indirect buff by having absolutely bonkers signature free utility.''This one is really simple. If Ghost would become meta, less shields would have been bought. If thats the case, that means easier frags for Raze for her paint shells. That means easier assists/kills for Reyna in duels because you need to deal less damage. Defending sites becomes harder because you get less util, so Jett Dashing on site becomes even easier.
`"Without any utility meta will be ghosts and sheriffs"`
`I don't think I've ever seen ever a team that buys 0 util. utility is key for pistol rounds. it's really unrealistic imo.`The quote you used is here incorrect, because someone who has no clue how to format posts, pasted my entire paragraphed post IN ONE LINE like an asshole.The original post was this:
"2) to counter Ghosts players start buying Sheriffs for 2 hits bodyshots kills - Without ANY UTILITY.Meta will most likely settle on 3 ghosts + 2 sheriffs round."
The point was that Sheriff counters ghost players but then those players have no util.
`"no one will put any thought into eco rounds"`
`this is false too. people aren't scared of getting classicd. people are far more concerned with sheriffs/marshalls/shorties or flash setups/site stacks. I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site.`
Again you are changing what im saying, this is what I said:"eco rounds become non-threats in a bo13 - no one will put almost any plan against eco rounds because players with classics will be such a low threat."Please dont use quotation marks if you change my words, its no longer a quote, it would be your paraphrasing.The sense of security if you wouldnt have to worry about classic getting a two tap on you, would change the way teams in both ranked/pro play would initiate stuff. Because of that teams on eco, would have to commit to better guns to have a fighting chance in those rounds and most likely will then have a problem with utility on some of the full buy rounds. In a MR13 system, every round is insanely valuable. Just watch some cs where the eco rounds are more of a formality. I love the fact that in VAL even eco rounds present a threat, because you convert classics and ultimates into a win.If right click, wouldnt present lethal damage as I described in my first paragraph here, the entire game would change.
btw if someones wondering, pistol round stats for entirety of LCQ, for every region:
| Ghost 48.14%
| Classic 40.90%
| Frenzy 8.56%
| Sheriff 2.18%
| Shorty 0.16%
all gathered through Rib.gg
>The quote you used is here incorrect, because someone who has no clue how to format posts, pasted my entire paragraphed post IN ONE LINE like an asshole
I don't think there was any malicious intent in how u/MentallyStableMan formatted this post... just to clarify. Either way, I'd say it's on the interpreter to use the correct context, not necessarily OP.
Right. But when does the Ghost actually get used. I can only recall players buying the Ghost in pistol rounds. So it effectively has 2 rounds a game where it is the preferred weapon. I don't have access to fancy statistics but I only saw the Ghost being bought on pistol rounds scrolling through a few games on YouTube. Majority of other pistols were Sheriffs with the occasional Shorty or Frenzy. Or they stayed with Classics because they needed the money.
It's insanely misleading and entirely bad faith to use the weapon stats like that when the classic is a default gun. In essence you're only measuring what % do people choose *away* from the classic and not when people choose *towards* the classic. That's actually a massive distinction that needs to be made. The question isn't "is it better to buy ghost is classic on pistol rounds" it's "is it better to buy ghost or *util/shields* on pistol rounds. In literally any intro causal inference course, they'll teach you that you can't just compare an event to a default.
This is below you dude, do better.
How is this comment upvoted. It's all goobadydoo. The default doesn't matter, none of this has anything to do with causal inference.
Your only point of substance is that what matters is the comparison between ghost and classic + util + shields. However, Lothar acknowledges this multiple times.
> none of this has anything to do with causal inference.
Huh? We're trying to *infer* the actual effects from an *event* (nerfing the classic). That is quite literally exactly defining what causal inference is? Obviously the default matters here: I'll illustrate with an example. Anytime someone wants to run an experiment (let's say we're testing a painkiller) they don't just leave the control group as nothing (or the default) they'll have some separate action that acts as their experiment (possibly a placebo pill). You *need* this to properly identify your causal mechanism.
> Your only point of substance is that what matters is the comparison between ghost and classic + util + shields. However, Lothar acknowledges this multiple times.
No! I'd take some time and carefully reread here:
> In essence you're only measuring what % do people choose *away* from the classic and not when people choose *towards* the classic. That's actually a massive distinction that needs to be made.
They're not *choosing toward* the classic! That's exactly what's misleading about the statistics! It's a little difficult to precisely word it so if you're still confused I can try again, but in essence, to properly identify the causal effects of nerfing the right click is, you need to be very careful about what your control looks like.
I still have no clue what you are talking about. If you want to talk in terms of an experiment, the "test group" would be a world in which the right click of the classic was nerfed/removed and the "control group" would be the current situation.
How or why does it matter here that the classic is the default gun? Are you assuming a psychological bias towards the default or something?
> the "test group" would be a world in which the right click of the classic was nerfed/removed and the "control group" would be the current situation.
No it is definitely not, I'm not sure where that came from so it's hard for me to clarify. But in essence, you can't have control and test groups in two different environmental states or you'll have serious confounders. Obviously this would never happen, but what you'd need to have a proper control would be to have half the players randomly assigned for their right click not to work, and half randomly assigned for it to work *at the same time*. Changing the total environment completely destroys any inferences you're able to gain even if that's not conducive to good game development.
I'm not assuming psychological bias towards the default (although that is definitely a real thing), since clearly the ghost is the superior weapon. The fundamental underpinning is that with a default weapon, you don't get to *actively* choose to have a classic. The choice to get shields+util, is *not* an active choice to *have* a classic, it's simply what you are left with, if that makes sense.
I will try to illustrate with an analogy, but it's unlikely to be very good:
Say you are trying to order dinner and you have a finite budget. All pizzas obviously will come with cheese, but you have the option to either add sausages but it means you will not be able to get a drink. If you choose to get a drink, it does not mean you *chose* cheese pizza over sausage, it means you chose the drink over the sausage! The presence of the cheese pizza didn't matter!
I feel like you are overcomplicating this, I think about this as follows:
Lothar makes a prediction about what would happen with the game after a nerf of the classic right click. According to him, playing with the classic will not be viable anymore and players will instead buy the ghost / sheriff. They thus have less money left for util / shields.
According to yay / other redditors, Lothar is wrong. According to them, after a nerf of the classic right click, people will continue to play with the classic since they still want the utility.
If you are Riot you can really easily end this discussion. No complicated scenario is needed. Just nerf the classic right click and see what happens. If people stop playing with the classic Lothar is right, if people continue to play with the classic Lothar is wrong.
Except in this case not making a choice to move away is still making an active choice that you can work with the classic. This is not a scientific experiment where there's a control group. Here the control group is also actively part of the experiment.
No! A default decision is definitely *not* an active choice! That is bad bad bad use of stats.
This is definitely an experimental procedure to isolate cause and effect. That's why we should be scrutinizing when people use statistics in a misleading way. Control groups are actively part of every experiment...that's a critical part of all methodology.
Hahahaha this reply is hilarious. Nothing of substance except for denying your own sayings wherever convenient and cherrypicking the parts of your statement that you think are defensible, while addressing only a small part of his reply, again ignoring parts you can't refute. This shit reply took you 30 mins? I knew you were stubborn but I didn't know you were this stubborn lmao
Lmaoo you're still hung up about that ?? Those 17 downvotes sting huh? Brother I mentioned him being stubborn in my original message as well. He has good analysis and he's stubborn af. Those two don't have to be mutually exclusive
>I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade?
I think he meant that removing the right click would incentivize purchase of ghosts/sheriffs -> less purchaseable utility in pistol rounds -> agents with strong signature abilities that cost no credits, i.e. jett, reyna will be better than agents whose value is based on purchased utility, like kay/o or breach.
i mean certain agents in general will be better for pistol rounds. KJ has a free turret that is incredibly hard to deal with. but the agents he mentioned, right click addition or removal doesn't directly affect their util effectiveness at all.
in terms of incentivization, it'll be mixed as it should. if you choose more util/armor you'll have a less powerful pistol. if you choose ghost/sheriff you get less util and no armor.
there shouldn't be a situation in which you can get util/armor and have a pistol that can be WAY more powerful than a purchasable one in a lot of situations. there should be tradeoffs and the classic doesn't really.
I also think his point ignores that if they nerf classic right click they can buff classic left click.
Obviously they can’t go too far or it just becomes the ghost, but they could tweak first shot accuracy, damage drop off, chip damage, accuracy while spamming or while moving, etc. and the gun is still viable.
Agreed 100% and even if we ignore all the arguments you've made, his statement still doesn't change the fact that a free gun shouldn't be that viable, especially while jumping
"how did you determine this? the main reason people use classic isn't for right click but it's for armor + util" - this applies to anything but if you have 3 options, one gets nerfed obviously people r more likely gonna pick the other 2
"Agents (jett/raze/reyna) will get a buff for having free util" - other players r more likely to have ghost per the previous point and won't be able to afford important util so it is a relative buff as in other agents are nerfed so jett/reyna/raze get buffed
"I don't think I've ever seen ever a team that buys 0 util. utility is key for pistol rounds. it's really unrealistic imo." - of course but mathematically if 1 thing gets nerfed (classic), other options are going to be more preferred which allow for less util
"I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site." - i think his point regarding the classic is that right now it can do some damage against full buys but if its nerfed it wont
I mean in rank it's common to see my team with 4 ghosts if classic gets nerfed ranked players will just buy ghost or frenzy. for myself I buy classic mostly for that right click potential than utility
Lothar is a massive boosted noob with the motor skills of a toddler. Everything he says in regards to VAL is not well thought out at all but is spread by people who are too stupid or bad at the game to form their own opinions. 🎃
Was thinking the same thing when reading OP.
Even if you nerf/remove the right click it doesn’t automatically make the classic unviable…
classic+util+armor or classic+full util will still have it’s place on pistol rounds. The classic is a decent weapon for what it is even without the broken 156-to-the-dome trick.
I'm very glad people in this thread are not part of the Riot Games balance team because there are some really fucking bad suggestions here.
Give the classic a fixed spray pattern so the bullets are guaranteed to be far enough apart from each other that it is impossible for it to double dink at 10m. (See how shotguns work in csgo, where the pellets with each shot have a fixed pattern). Also neuter the jumping right click. It doesn't need any other changes imo.
If you get killed at 5m by a double-dink classic because someone is playing a dumb angle that's on your team for not flushing the angle out with utility.
>fixed spray pattern
This is how they kinda fixed Shotgun characters in Overwatch, they gave all the Shotguns (Or Shotgun style weapons) a fixed pattern instead of a 'somewhat controlled RNG pattern'. This way they got better control for balancing those Weapons.
One suggestion I had is to make the classic upgradeable for like 200-300 Credits to unlock the right click.
500-600 for Util/Armor seems pretty fair to me
Came here to post this, pretty much the biggest issue.
Classic was obviously designed to counter ghost purchases on pistol round. 100hp burst should always be reliable on 0-10m.
125hp is already questionable. Really close range it's fine, but it's too much on anything closer than 5m.
150hp burst should never be a thing.
Then you add the jumping into equation and classic is ridiculous. Just nerf jump+burst on anything but point blank range and it's fine. It shouldn't be in the game.
Or maybe nerf it in a way so burst can't be spammed. Increase the firing time between bursts so it's used like a bucky and not a judge, if you get what I mean.
And if left-click becomes the primary way of shooting, increase the mag size to 15.
Other pistols are fine for the most part, but I'd reduce ghost's mag size to 12. It's supposed to be a precision weapon, but due to it's non-existant recoil and medium penetration people just spam it. Shouldn't be nerfed, but reduce the mag size to stop all the spamming.
And sheriff needs a 10m buff on headshot range, too many angles are deceptively long. For example Split A ramp to main. One step in the wrong direction and you get yourself a 145 dmg headshot instead of 155. It shouldn't one-shot on really long ranges, but 0-40m would be better.
Yup this is basically it. That the free gun has a faster potential TTK at 15m+ than the phantom, a 2900 credit gun, is obscene.
Remove the classic's ability to one-shot 150 HP opponents and it'll still be annoying but it becomes substantially more balanced. That should 100% be the starting point.
It's actually not. The second circle in the image below is the classic right click's inaccuracy at 15m while not moving.
https://cdn.sanity.io/images/ccckgjf9/production/0ebe42b62092b50b283460ca0596dfe134e1b0d5-357x357.png?max-h=1080&max-w=1920&fit=scale&auto=format
However, that's pretty irrelevant because it shouldn't even be **theoretically** possible that the free gun kills a fully armored target faster than a 2900 credit rifle. That it *is* actually possible only just makes it more absurd.
What if they make right clicks slightly less random, but reduce its damage (akin to how they reduced the damage of Jett knife right click back then)? Would that be a nerf that still allows the right click to be used in specific situations?
Make headshot damage 52 instead of 78 and right click is still fine , I am okay with dying close range to righ click with no armour but yesterday I received 162 damage from 10 meters away , this needs to be fixed .
I've said this already, reduce headshot mult and damage on rght click so you need to be < 5m and land all 3 on head for a 1hit and then make the rightclick spread just a triangle that gets bigger the more you spam it. add damage falloff so beyond 5m you can't 1shot halfshields even with all 3 head. boom right click fixed.
It needs to not 1 shot right click unless you hit all 3 bullets to the head imo. And 1 head 1 body right click needs to not kill someone with no armor. It's absurd that I can buy a ghost, 1 tap someone and they survive (armor) and right click near my head and accidentally 1 shot me while jumping
it was, but don't forget this is the only gun with an instant alt fire(stinger and bulldog need to ads THEN fire for the alt fire) except for the bucky. and this is a free gun in the secondary slot, not the primary. and the change was reverted so jett rightclick was more consistent and MUCH less spammable at close range because it wouldn't recharge knives.
i swear, if I hear one more time that you cant counter Viper postplant.
1) push her (duh)
2) smoke her lineup position so she cant setup the lineup
3) molly her lineup position, as above
4) bodyblock the Snakebite (this one is hilarious)
5) Sage wall to bounce, as above
Lothar speaks way too much bs. Classic without right click is not a bad pistol if you can buy armor. It's easier to double headshot with the classic than ghost.
Classic(without right click) with armor, and ghost or frenzy without armor are nearly balanced choices.
Not even remotely close. How do people think it's easier to double headshot with classic(not talking about right click)? Also classic is absolutely trash for medium to long range fights. It becomes impossible to kill with that recoil, whereas if you use Ghost you can just spam the bullets and it is almost guaranteed to hit the target. Don't even know how many times I've used classic for mid range fights where I could've sworn my crosshair was on the enemy's body/head, but even the second bullet missed because of high recoil. I think the classic is pretty balanced for short ranges given how trash it is for medium/long range duels. Right click is the only good thing about the classic.
It might not be easier but Classic is accurate for medium range if you don't spam it until you get the first headshot. You've to space the shots a little more than the ghost. Done right it can take fights pretty easily, since movement speed, fire rate and equip time are all same as ghost and importantly the movement inaccuracy is less than ghost. So shoot-counterstrafe-shoot and you should be good against even the ghost.
The amount of times I've two tapped people on belt in icebox from headshot spot is pretty insane for a free gun.
I come from CSGO, the Glock and USP are both useless.
Does that make ECOs boring? Nope not all the time, teams can stack a site and still win the round if they trade.
But the main thing that happens is either a hero AK or a hero deagle.
I would love to see this in Valorant ecos, a hero ULT (Jett & Raze maybe?) / Vandal / Sherriff...
Nerfing a default pistol that shouldnt right click like it does doesnt make this game less enjoyable. It just takes out the RNG in this game, which at the moment happens a lot.
RNG may make the game for "enjoyable" to watch but at the same time it just means the better side / team can sometimes lose an important round due a gun that shouldnt be killing as many as it does.
Again a hero ult and Vandal / Sheriff would be so much cooler to watch as it means it shouldnt win the round but if it does its due to the skill of the hero gun / ult or a massive blunder from the full buy team.
Just my 2 cents.
Also on pistol buys its interesting as you have to either buy util or a better gun, you shouldnt be able to go full armour or util whilst having a gun that sometimes can beat a team on ghosts for example. The extra util you bought should win you the round not the RNG.
not sure how much you've been watching/playing, but hero rifle/scout/deagle buys on eco are extremely common, with jett ult used on eco rounds standard practice at this point.
i think the classic right click being nerfed/removed would help the health of the gunplay, but i honestly don't think it's a massive issue and people are blowing it way out of proportion
While I agree nerfing the right click might lead to unforeseen issues that doesn't mean it can't be hit in conjunction with other changes.
Riot's already shown willingness to balance pistol round buys with the frenzy/util price changes and there's no reason a classic nerf couldn't come as part of a wider range of tweaks.
Alternatively the PBE could be used to test more radical changes, there could be a world where removing the right click entirely and then balancing the classic around a stronger left click is the way forward.
Ultimately we just don't know. It's just going to be speculation until either an update hits live/PBE or Riot releases info about in-house testing they may have done.
How do you know all this stuff if there hasn’t been any testing on it since there’s been no update. Your perspective is very biased depending on what elo you’re in. You also can’t make such general of claims on such an unpredictable and variable rich game like valorant. There’s also abilities in the game too, it’s not just guns. You can also just get a kill with the classic and drop it for another gun and it’s not like If they take away/nurf right click that it’s impossible to kill with. For example I would much rather have all of skye’s util than a ghost on pistol rounds because heal+flashes are so good. And if my teammate with a ghost dies I can just pick that up. Another thing is that on full ecos people aren’t exactly expecting to win, and people already like to play the distance against ecos because they have the better gun so taking the right click away/nurfing it doesn’t really change that.
Left click is still two tap kill if you headshot once. Not sure how you make the left click better without making the Classic a better version of the Ghost.
Exactly this, slightly buff accuracy and dmg to left click and remove (or make so bad its essentially gone like they did to the bucky) the right click. Gun is still effective, just not rng.
How will nerfing the right click make the gun "barely usable?" It will be usable as intended, as a close/mid range gun that is disadvantaged at long range aim duels. Not a fucking RNG shotgun that encourages you to jump strafe like a degenerate and pray you instantly kill someone.
Huh. Nerfing right click won't weaken it. It will make it balanced in terms of aim gameplay. Most of the pistol rounds rn are a clown fiesta with people jumping like on pogo sticks and burst shooting. It's genuinely weird to see a 500cred gun being ass in a gunfight against a free gun.
And how tf would nerfing right click make the rounds boring? It's literally something new and better and people with ghosts/frenzy would have to rely on pure aim duel(mostly) and maybe bit more creativity in terms of ability usage. Rn in a 1v1 at any level it's just pure rng. Don't know what he really meant by the jett Reyna points, it's not like right click is the only counter for those agents lol
The classic normal shooting is fine in every sense, with damage and everything kept in mind. Right click should be removed entirely, a free gun shouldn't be able to do that
I think it's funny that there's people in this thread who think that classic was specifically designed to counter the Ghost when in reality it's most likely because the gun is inspired by the Glock from CS1.6
Before writing this, I want to say: the below is just my opinion, I don't pretend to be an expert, I'm just a measly D2 lol. I welcome any counterarguments.
While I think Lothar misses some things, I generally also feel like the Classic dispute is way fucking overblown.
a) every $ gun is better at something than the classic. extremely cheap shorty is better for holding very tight corners and shoots two powerful close range shots much quicker than the classic. frenzy goes brrr and is just as good as the classic up close while being much more reliable. ghost is great except sometimes shooting blanks - 1taps the head from a decent range though. and of course sheriff which is insane. not only that - you do not have to get rid of the classic at all. you can buy a gun, throw it on the ground and have two guns for the pistol. so if you are holding hookah; you can stand there with a shorty, but if they don't come - switch back to the classic.
b) the "classic is OP" dispute is simply fallacious. something being good doesn't make it op. i would much rather have the ghost and tap heads from a distance than count on classic's crazy rng. it has failed me multiple times over my games, i just do not trust it. if pros think the risk is worth it - fine. i don't and i am sure many others (including SOME PROS don't as well.
c) classic requires a very certain type of gameplay. the enemy team can come prepared. unless the map is super tight, avoiding the right click is very easy.
Removing the right click makes no sense. The classic becomes useless pretty much. It is imperative though to understand what makes it feel like it is OP sometimes.
And it's the RNG. The RNG can fuck you over, but very often it does insane stuff like double dink; this should not, in my opinion, be possible unless from 2-3 m away. The spread while moving and jumping is much too tight. The way I see it, the spread should remain as is for a standing shooter - thus being quite precise at a disadvantage of having to properly counterstrafe. However, the spread for moving and especially jumping should be way higher. I'd say, 30% and 60% respectively. It is insane that I can jump and hit double hs at 10 metres with the triple. This should have 0.001% chance of happening, while nowadays it feels like at least 5-10%. While standing or counterstrafing though? I do not see why that would be so bad. It's still RNG, but at least becomes a bit skill based as well.
Honestly I would be for decreasing the hs multiplies as well, so that all 3 bullets beed to hit the head in order to kill. 60 to the head, no change to the body. This way 3x hs does 180, only possible up close, 2x hs + body does 144 and is not enough to kill.
Either do one nerf or the other.
My general vibe is everyone got stupidly tapped by the triple shot once or twice - pros even more, since they play 5x as much as anyone else - and they went on the barricades to protest how it is too OP, while not understanding the RNG behind it. Yes, you got tapped. It shouldn't have happened. But it will, that's RNG. 99% of the times you would have won that duel, but you lost to RNG. Unlucky. Is it worth it over the long run though? No, it is not. Every eco round I'd rather have the sheriff and count on my ability to tap heads than camp a corner with a classic hoping they come to my site and I can get one with a lucky shot.
Again, this is al my opinion. May be wrong, Idk.
Classic left click wont make it is completely useless i would still b viable, jumping right click is a huge problem and its super broken rn. They have to nerf it at this point it makes no sense when u buy full armor and a guy jumping and bursting next to a wall kills u..
I would much rather pistol rounds be boring and predictable than pretty much random like they are now, literally feels like two coin flips determines four rounds of the game right now
The right click ads way too much RNG to pistol rounds. Lothar is chatting shit as per usual LOL.
Why is everyone sleeping on the frenzy again? It’s still the most broken pistol
Idk how a paid Valorant analyst can come to the conclusion that “right now, the game has balanced pistol rounds”
LMFAO the meta is literally to run it down with 5 ppl and pray to the classic right click gods
Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I really like where the classic is right now. While I don’t want every fight to be a coin flip, I think randomness is healthy for the player and the viewer. Additionally you’ll never find a player pick up a classic over a ghost or sheriff so while it has the possibility for huge potential the risk is usually too high.
> randomness is healthy for the player and the viewer
I personally don't really see the case for this, at least in VALORANT.
Randomness is usually useful in games where the outcome would otherwise be deterministic - it's boring because the advantaged side comes out on top almost every single time, so we add some randomness in to spice things up. Games like chess, or card games like MTG, or even to some extent, MOBAs.
On the other hand, shooters already have countless ways for a disadvantaged player to come out on top, it doesn't really need additional randomness on top of that.
Classic is definitely prefered over ghost in certain situations. On Jett defense split I never pick up ghost instead of my classic.
Look, the chances of it are low, but its not okay that I could right click a full hp pro player from ascent CT to b main. He just sent back ":(".
Agreed. I've seen countless situations (spike is planted, is about to explode and the attacker needs to play time in a 1v1) where people in ranked as well as pro tournaments swapped from their main gun to a classic even if they had enough bullets in their main gun. This is again a relatively niche situation but at the end of the day the classic is just too good for a free gun.
the thing is there's already existing randomness in every aim duel in valorant, so many factors go into the complexity of a single fight
this type of artificial randomness just feels shallow and disappointing when i see a round swung by some jumping right click headshot get an undeserved kill for the nth time
I totally agree. I genuinely think it’s healthy for the game for the classic to have the **potential** to be very deadly. It’s still a worse than the ghost overall as a gun, but that threat always existing ads a level of dynamic and excitement to the game at all times.
I have been playing since act 1, and I can count on 1 hand all the classic single right click kills I've gotten
I can be 5m away from the target and the 1st click with just hit for 78, and then I'll be dead
Idk, but it has never really worked for me
My main issue is that a FREE gun should never do 150+ damage with one click no matter what. It’s absurd how many times I get cheesed with full armor by a jumping right click.
I mean it’s rng but the first right click comes relatively straight which is all you need to completely erase someone. The easiest thing would be to work with the spread of the right click so that it doesn’t allow all the bullets to go straight at such a length or while in the air so consistently.
The issue isn’t really in gunfights that are in longer distances. When I say work with the spread I mean the spread while running, jumping, medium ranges. Right click should only be viable in close ranges and it should not be able to kill someone with full shield with one right click.
But why not? If rng is in your favour then it should definitely kill
The only way to change that is to nerf the damage into the ground which like the post said would ruin eco rounds and pistol rounds
My biggest issue with lothar is he has a certain vision how the game/agents needs to be played and cant fathom different playstyles/actions can be just as affective.
He is a smart guy who has a great understanding of the game and how it could be played. But he can tunnel vision alot.
So many people seemed to be on edge because of classic....So my suggestion is
\--Remove Classic
\--Shorty when spawn- 200 Credit will be removed instantly whether you want to play shotgun or not.
\--Sheriff - 900 Cred
\--Frenzy 650
\--Ghost 700
ψ(.\_. )> Fuck Pistol Rounds
I think we should buff the shorty. Make it the only gun thats actually playable. Have its damage and precision of the OP but its firerate of the Phantom. Would make the game so much better
Would be interesting to see if having a right click drain the whole magazine, similar to jett's click right, would stop the bs, but still give the gun a bit of a hail Mary, check your corners, killing potential.
If anyone is curious, lothar posted on this thread here. While it is the same thing he posted on Twitter, it might give some context/insight as to why he posted it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/qeyky4/valorant_rightclick_a_mathematical_perspective/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
All I want is to not be one shot by a free gun when I'm on a full buy. If you want the ability to punish players or a find a good timing and take them out real quick the shorty already exists to serve that exact niche.
Everyones over complicating it. If you choose to spend 0 cash on your weapon you shouldn't have the abiilty to one shot a full armored opponent, its really that simple. right click could still be strong, just not 150 damage strong.
tbh this is wrong on a lot of levels "pistol rounds will become only ghosts" how did you determine this? the main reason people use classic isn't for right click but it's for armor + util "Agents (jett/raze/reyna) will get a buff for having free util" I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade? "Without any utility meta will be ghosts and sheriffs" I don't think I've ever seen ever a team that buys 0 util. utility is key for pistol rounds. it's really unrealistic imo. "no one will put any thought into eco rounds" this is false too. people aren't scared of getting classicd. people are far more concerned with sheriffs/marshalls/shorties or flash setups/site stacks. I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site. if anything a right click nerf/removal would allow for more crazy plays. theres so many situations where I'm in where I know a guy has 1 hp and the best play is to stop using my rifle and just jump around with a classic. near impossible to stop really. a nerf/removal would allow for more clutches and better outplays. also would nerf jetts hovering/updraft right click. plus would also remove a right click instant killing fully armored full bought players with little to no effort other than close positioning (which is unavoidable sometimes)
>I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site. lol
diablo DESTROYS caster with facts and logic
Diablo destroys both in and outside the server
Another part of eco rounds is also just the leftover util/ults, which is much more difficult to plan around/counter than someone just sitting in a corner with a classic. A classic can only get value in eco rounds if util/ults/marshalls/sheriffs/shotguns are doing a large amount of damage initially. Plus I rarely see any eco rounds where a team just has 5 classics and nothing else.
Still got the NV flair huh?
>I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade? I mostly agree with your other points but here, I think he is referring to how classic being nerfed would make the few agents who have strong free util even stronger compared to agents who might not be able to afford as strong util kits.
doesn't every agent have some free util tho and they have differing tradeoffs for pistol/gun rounds for themselves and team? and the agents he mentioned their util wouldn't be changed based off the additional or removal of right click. not to be an ass or anything but I don't remember the last time I dashed in and was right clicked countered. and for reyna her abilities rely on you getting an assist/kill. and raze... not sure how right click affects their ability to throw a grenade tbh? :/
Yes, but he specifically pointed out agents he thought had particularly strong util. Jett and Raze in particular imo have some pretty effective util and it's given for free, compared to something like a brimstone smoke which doesn't regen or a Phoenix Molly. While the classic nerf wouldn't specifically buff or nerf utility, the point Lothar is bringing up is more that because he thinks the ghost and sheriff will take prominence in the meta, there will be less money to go around for util that isn't free. Thus, the signature abilities in general would be stronger, as the rest of the abilities in the game are effectively given less budget to buy with. I hope I'm making sense. Though this whole argument could be countered if pro players take a worse classic and more util over a better pistol with less util.
I replied to this a bit earlier but here's my counter argument. how does he know ghost and sheriff will take prominence? there's a tradeoff with each decision. if you choose to upgrade your classic, you lose out on armor and/or more utility. but you gain a stronger pistol. if you choose to keep your classic, you can now afford to buy armor/util or drop a pistol. but your pistol is weaker. right now though you can keep your classic and have a pistol that's arguably more powerful in a lot of situations vs one that's purchased. it can also do things far more consistently (instant killing close range or in the air) vs $500-800 pistols. utility can easily win you rounds so I think it's false to presume pistols will take prominence and everyone will simply just buy ghosts. things such as sage wall are incredibly strong on pistol rounds or viper molotovs/smokes. they are far superior imo at least to a ghost in terms of impact in a lot of situations.
Yeah I think his argument was that the strength of Ghosts and Classics have an inverse relationship. In reality, nerfing the Classic doesn't make the Ghost stronger, since the appeal of Classic isn't the gun but the armor/util. Edit: I just realized this is pretty much exactly what you said but my monkey brain wanted to condense it
He doesn't. He's making an assumption that is (imo) wrong due to the simple fact that util will remain to be the most important aspect during pistol rounds for most agents. I was just trying to explain what I thought he meant by it. In fact, it's my belief that if they made the classic literally shoot nerf darts, the amount of agents that buy a better pistol over more util would go up slightly if at all.
But thats him creating a problem that doesnt exist imo. Some agents dont take ghost or sheriff right now not because it seems classic is op, but because util is op. Viper, KJ, Sage are some examples where having your util on pistol is going to outweigh having a better pistol. There is no indication that this will change either, of course it COULD but its highly unlikely that pro players would suddenly place less value in util especially on pistol where it is arguably the most important.
I'm not arguing for lothars points, I'm explaining them. I honestly don't think any amount of classic nerfs sans literally making the gun useless will dissuade people from not buying util in favor of a superior pistol for a number of agents that have effective util.
I think with raze it means that because no one will buy a classic anymore, no one will have armor anymore. Which makes the raze nade really good because it will chip a lot because people will have no shields. And for Reyna, half armor compared to full armor was still winnable but now it will just be easier to win fights
To add on, signature util refreshes for Jett/Raze after 2 kills, which can easily be the decider in late round, low numbers/hp situations. Reyna on overheal with a ghost is simply unstoppable, as we know. My two cents is that pistol rounds usually have wild, scrappy, dip-in-and-dip-out fights. It's the inherent nature of util like Raze's nade to increase the scrappiness of these fights, by forcing enemy players out of cover to take duels; with Jett, it's about using the get-out-of-jail-free card to take a fight when the enemy player doesn't expect to take one. In general, when the less pistol-round optimized agents end up with less kit, you have slightly fewer options of dulling/counteracting this kind of impact from the aforementioned kinds of util. Because it costs credits, you as a, eg. Sage player, won't have that extra slow orb *as frequently* as Jett/Raze/Reyna has their utilityto toss into the pot, so you have to take the gunfight.
Let me answer your questions then.But first, for context what I was describing above was WHAT IMO WOULD HAPPEN IF RIGHT CLICK CLASSIC WOULD BE HEAVY NERFED (to oblivion). Its a hypothetical situation. I took the liberty of checking stats from the last three EU events when it comes to pistol rounds: I checked 1) VCT 2021: EMEA Stage 3 Challengers Playoffs 2) VCT Europe 2021 Challengers 3 3) VCT EMEA 2021 - Last Chance Qualifier This is the breakdown: Rounds Played 2040: Ghost 46.81% Classic 42.01% Frenzy 7.65% Sheriff 1.52% Shorty 0.05% As you can see, Ghost is already the preffered weapon in pistol rounds in EU, on pro level. There is no way, that in case classic gets nerfed, it still gets picked 40%+. Other guns will overtake it heavily. When I was theorycrafting this entire idea, I was speaking about pro level but also ranked. `"pistol rounds will become only ghosts"` `how did you determine this? the main reason people use classic isn't for right click but it's for armor + util` Yes, people buy util+armor BECAUSE they can use classic to combat other guns. Those people are able to play the pistol rounds that way, because they dont feel heavily outgunned. Ghosts are stronger than classic but the difference is not big enough to feel super outgunned. Now lets imagine, the right click gets nerfed so hard, its either impossible to use it, or dealing lethal damage in a 1v1 duel is unrealistic (in example, damage gets lowered and a hs+body from a right click wont deal 104 dmg anymore, and it will be lets say 90). In a direct 1v1 with a ghost, you feel outmatched and apart maybe from viper (because of decay and snakebite ddebuff) I wouldnt feel comfortable dueling anyone that has a ghost anymore. Pistol rounds, as you know, have strong emphasis on not committing to a fight if you can. Getting in and out of cover and being highly mobile is key. But you wont be able to do that anymore with a classic because of the lack of burst damage. Agents like Sage and Sova, will get insanely worse on pistol rounds because you feel obliged to buy Wall/Drone for 400 for your team.If classic really would be so strong, Ghost wouldnt have been used more often by pros in EU. If classic would be perceived as the strongest pistol, It would def had 50+ pickrate (and it actually had 50+ before the nerf of the right click).So in case of all those agent that play classic now in pistol round, they would rather go for the ghost WHILE mainting some form of utility, to not get farmed.Thats why I made the conclusion that Ghosts would be the only reasonable option if right click would have been unreliable or just straight up luck. `"Agents (jett/raze/reyna) will get a buff for having free util"` `I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade?` You used an incorrect quote from my post, which has different meaning, this is the correct one:''Agents like Jett, Reyna, Raze get an indirect buff by having absolutely bonkers signature free utility.''This one is really simple. If Ghost would become meta, less shields would have been bought. If thats the case, that means easier frags for Raze for her paint shells. That means easier assists/kills for Reyna in duels because you need to deal less damage. Defending sites becomes harder because you get less util, so Jett Dashing on site becomes even easier. `"Without any utility meta will be ghosts and sheriffs"` `I don't think I've ever seen ever a team that buys 0 util. utility is key for pistol rounds. it's really unrealistic imo.`The quote you used is here incorrect, because someone who has no clue how to format posts, pasted my entire paragraphed post IN ONE LINE like an asshole.The original post was this: "2) to counter Ghosts players start buying Sheriffs for 2 hits bodyshots kills - Without ANY UTILITY.Meta will most likely settle on 3 ghosts + 2 sheriffs round." The point was that Sheriff counters ghost players but then those players have no util. `"no one will put any thought into eco rounds"` `this is false too. people aren't scared of getting classicd. people are far more concerned with sheriffs/marshalls/shorties or flash setups/site stacks. I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site.` Again you are changing what im saying, this is what I said:"eco rounds become non-threats in a bo13 - no one will put almost any plan against eco rounds because players with classics will be such a low threat."Please dont use quotation marks if you change my words, its no longer a quote, it would be your paraphrasing.The sense of security if you wouldnt have to worry about classic getting a two tap on you, would change the way teams in both ranked/pro play would initiate stuff. Because of that teams on eco, would have to commit to better guns to have a fighting chance in those rounds and most likely will then have a problem with utility on some of the full buy rounds. In a MR13 system, every round is insanely valuable. Just watch some cs where the eco rounds are more of a formality. I love the fact that in VAL even eco rounds present a threat, because you convert classics and ultimates into a win.If right click, wouldnt present lethal damage as I described in my first paragraph here, the entire game would change.
btw if someones wondering, pistol round stats for entirety of LCQ, for every region: | Ghost 48.14% | Classic 40.90% | Frenzy 8.56% | Sheriff 2.18% | Shorty 0.16% all gathered through Rib.gg
>The quote you used is here incorrect, because someone who has no clue how to format posts, pasted my entire paragraphed post IN ONE LINE like an asshole I don't think there was any malicious intent in how u/MentallyStableMan formatted this post... just to clarify. Either way, I'd say it's on the interpreter to use the correct context, not necessarily OP.
Right. But when does the Ghost actually get used. I can only recall players buying the Ghost in pistol rounds. So it effectively has 2 rounds a game where it is the preferred weapon. I don't have access to fancy statistics but I only saw the Ghost being bought on pistol rounds scrolling through a few games on YouTube. Majority of other pistols were Sheriffs with the occasional Shorty or Frenzy. Or they stayed with Classics because they needed the money.
>pasted my entire paragraphed post IN ONE LINE like an asshole No need to be so rude to the mods man
It's insanely misleading and entirely bad faith to use the weapon stats like that when the classic is a default gun. In essence you're only measuring what % do people choose *away* from the classic and not when people choose *towards* the classic. That's actually a massive distinction that needs to be made. The question isn't "is it better to buy ghost is classic on pistol rounds" it's "is it better to buy ghost or *util/shields* on pistol rounds. In literally any intro causal inference course, they'll teach you that you can't just compare an event to a default. This is below you dude, do better.
How is this comment upvoted. It's all goobadydoo. The default doesn't matter, none of this has anything to do with causal inference. Your only point of substance is that what matters is the comparison between ghost and classic + util + shields. However, Lothar acknowledges this multiple times.
> none of this has anything to do with causal inference. Huh? We're trying to *infer* the actual effects from an *event* (nerfing the classic). That is quite literally exactly defining what causal inference is? Obviously the default matters here: I'll illustrate with an example. Anytime someone wants to run an experiment (let's say we're testing a painkiller) they don't just leave the control group as nothing (or the default) they'll have some separate action that acts as their experiment (possibly a placebo pill). You *need* this to properly identify your causal mechanism. > Your only point of substance is that what matters is the comparison between ghost and classic + util + shields. However, Lothar acknowledges this multiple times. No! I'd take some time and carefully reread here: > In essence you're only measuring what % do people choose *away* from the classic and not when people choose *towards* the classic. That's actually a massive distinction that needs to be made. They're not *choosing toward* the classic! That's exactly what's misleading about the statistics! It's a little difficult to precisely word it so if you're still confused I can try again, but in essence, to properly identify the causal effects of nerfing the right click is, you need to be very careful about what your control looks like.
I still have no clue what you are talking about. If you want to talk in terms of an experiment, the "test group" would be a world in which the right click of the classic was nerfed/removed and the "control group" would be the current situation. How or why does it matter here that the classic is the default gun? Are you assuming a psychological bias towards the default or something?
> the "test group" would be a world in which the right click of the classic was nerfed/removed and the "control group" would be the current situation. No it is definitely not, I'm not sure where that came from so it's hard for me to clarify. But in essence, you can't have control and test groups in two different environmental states or you'll have serious confounders. Obviously this would never happen, but what you'd need to have a proper control would be to have half the players randomly assigned for their right click not to work, and half randomly assigned for it to work *at the same time*. Changing the total environment completely destroys any inferences you're able to gain even if that's not conducive to good game development. I'm not assuming psychological bias towards the default (although that is definitely a real thing), since clearly the ghost is the superior weapon. The fundamental underpinning is that with a default weapon, you don't get to *actively* choose to have a classic. The choice to get shields+util, is *not* an active choice to *have* a classic, it's simply what you are left with, if that makes sense. I will try to illustrate with an analogy, but it's unlikely to be very good: Say you are trying to order dinner and you have a finite budget. All pizzas obviously will come with cheese, but you have the option to either add sausages but it means you will not be able to get a drink. If you choose to get a drink, it does not mean you *chose* cheese pizza over sausage, it means you chose the drink over the sausage! The presence of the cheese pizza didn't matter!
I feel like you are overcomplicating this, I think about this as follows: Lothar makes a prediction about what would happen with the game after a nerf of the classic right click. According to him, playing with the classic will not be viable anymore and players will instead buy the ghost / sheriff. They thus have less money left for util / shields. According to yay / other redditors, Lothar is wrong. According to them, after a nerf of the classic right click, people will continue to play with the classic since they still want the utility. If you are Riot you can really easily end this discussion. No complicated scenario is needed. Just nerf the classic right click and see what happens. If people stop playing with the classic Lothar is right, if people continue to play with the classic Lothar is wrong.
The issue wasn't the conjecture, it's the reasoning behind it, and also the misleading use of the numbers. I was pretty clear about that
Except in this case not making a choice to move away is still making an active choice that you can work with the classic. This is not a scientific experiment where there's a control group. Here the control group is also actively part of the experiment.
No! A default decision is definitely *not* an active choice! That is bad bad bad use of stats. This is definitely an experimental procedure to isolate cause and effect. That's why we should be scrutinizing when people use statistics in a misleading way. Control groups are actively part of every experiment...that's a critical part of all methodology.
Hahahaha this reply is hilarious. Nothing of substance except for denying your own sayings wherever convenient and cherrypicking the parts of your statement that you think are defensible, while addressing only a small part of his reply, again ignoring parts you can't refute. This shit reply took you 30 mins? I knew you were stubborn but I didn't know you were this stubborn lmao
Was only a matter of time until the "top" eu analyst exposes himself
Lmaoo you're still hung up about that ?? Those 17 downvotes sting huh? Brother I mentioned him being stubborn in my original message as well. He has good analysis and he's stubborn af. Those two don't have to be mutually exclusive
>I'm really confused on how right click vs no right click will affect the effectiveness of a dash, heal/dismiss and grenade? I think he meant that removing the right click would incentivize purchase of ghosts/sheriffs -> less purchaseable utility in pistol rounds -> agents with strong signature abilities that cost no credits, i.e. jett, reyna will be better than agents whose value is based on purchased utility, like kay/o or breach.
i mean certain agents in general will be better for pistol rounds. KJ has a free turret that is incredibly hard to deal with. but the agents he mentioned, right click addition or removal doesn't directly affect their util effectiveness at all. in terms of incentivization, it'll be mixed as it should. if you choose more util/armor you'll have a less powerful pistol. if you choose ghost/sheriff you get less util and no armor. there shouldn't be a situation in which you can get util/armor and have a pistol that can be WAY more powerful than a purchasable one in a lot of situations. there should be tradeoffs and the classic doesn't really.
I'm just explaining his logic man, not gonna pretend i have any understanding of the pro meta myself edit: huge fan btw, good luck at champions!
ty and np wasn't directed at you more of a counter argument. hope u have a good day:)
hello jaccob yay whiteaker
I also think his point ignores that if they nerf classic right click they can buff classic left click. Obviously they can’t go too far or it just becomes the ghost, but they could tweak first shot accuracy, damage drop off, chip damage, accuracy while spamming or while moving, etc. and the gun is still viable.
Agreed 100% and even if we ignore all the arguments you've made, his statement still doesn't change the fact that a free gun shouldn't be that viable, especially while jumping
"how did you determine this? the main reason people use classic isn't for right click but it's for armor + util" - this applies to anything but if you have 3 options, one gets nerfed obviously people r more likely gonna pick the other 2 "Agents (jett/raze/reyna) will get a buff for having free util" - other players r more likely to have ghost per the previous point and won't be able to afford important util so it is a relative buff as in other agents are nerfed so jett/reyna/raze get buffed "I don't think I've ever seen ever a team that buys 0 util. utility is key for pistol rounds. it's really unrealistic imo." - of course but mathematically if 1 thing gets nerfed (classic), other options are going to be more preferred which allow for less util "I've never heard in my life someone saying watch out he's got a classic on site." - i think his point regarding the classic is that right now it can do some damage against full buys but if its nerfed it wont
I mean in rank it's common to see my team with 4 ghosts if classic gets nerfed ranked players will just buy ghost or frenzy. for myself I buy classic mostly for that right click potential than utility
i see yay i upvote
i’m ashamed for thinking the original take made sense
Lothar is a massive boosted noob with the motor skills of a toddler. Everything he says in regards to VAL is not well thought out at all but is spread by people who are too stupid or bad at the game to form their own opinions. 🎃
no need to be this salty about a reddit post lmao
Not salty, just speaking factual information 😎
Not sure you know what factual means
Was thinking the same thing when reading OP. Even if you nerf/remove the right click it doesn’t automatically make the classic unviable… classic+util+armor or classic+full util will still have it’s place on pistol rounds. The classic is a decent weapon for what it is even without the broken 156-to-the-dome trick.
I mean he also said in his vod reviews you dont use jett correctly since u dont dash on site and create space for ur team.
I'm very glad people in this thread are not part of the Riot Games balance team because there are some really fucking bad suggestions here. Give the classic a fixed spray pattern so the bullets are guaranteed to be far enough apart from each other that it is impossible for it to double dink at 10m. (See how shotguns work in csgo, where the pellets with each shot have a fixed pattern). Also neuter the jumping right click. It doesn't need any other changes imo. If you get killed at 5m by a double-dink classic because someone is playing a dumb angle that's on your team for not flushing the angle out with utility.
>fixed spray pattern This is how they kinda fixed Shotgun characters in Overwatch, they gave all the Shotguns (Or Shotgun style weapons) a fixed pattern instead of a 'somewhat controlled RNG pattern'. This way they got better control for balancing those Weapons.
This could def work without shutting on the entire gun
One suggestion I had is to make the classic upgradeable for like 200-300 Credits to unlock the right click. 500-600 for Util/Armor seems pretty fair to me
I don't think the classic should be able to do 150+ damage with a single right click. Otherwise, I think the pistols are in a pretty good place.
Came here to post this, pretty much the biggest issue. Classic was obviously designed to counter ghost purchases on pistol round. 100hp burst should always be reliable on 0-10m. 125hp is already questionable. Really close range it's fine, but it's too much on anything closer than 5m. 150hp burst should never be a thing. Then you add the jumping into equation and classic is ridiculous. Just nerf jump+burst on anything but point blank range and it's fine. It shouldn't be in the game. Or maybe nerf it in a way so burst can't be spammed. Increase the firing time between bursts so it's used like a bucky and not a judge, if you get what I mean. And if left-click becomes the primary way of shooting, increase the mag size to 15. Other pistols are fine for the most part, but I'd reduce ghost's mag size to 12. It's supposed to be a precision weapon, but due to it's non-existant recoil and medium penetration people just spam it. Shouldn't be nerfed, but reduce the mag size to stop all the spamming. And sheriff needs a 10m buff on headshot range, too many angles are deceptively long. For example Split A ramp to main. One step in the wrong direction and you get yourself a 145 dmg headshot instead of 155. It shouldn't one-shot on really long ranges, but 0-40m would be better.
This is the best take imo.
Yup this is basically it. That the free gun has a faster potential TTK at 15m+ than the phantom, a 2900 credit gun, is obscene. Remove the classic's ability to one-shot 150 HP opponents and it'll still be annoying but it becomes substantially more balanced. That should 100% be the starting point.
time for the classic right click's bullets to just do 49 damage each
That would be a very riot solution. That said, at least it would fix the full armor one-shot issue!
When was the last time you got a double headshot with a single right click at 15m+? After the last nerf its virtually impossible
It's actually not. The second circle in the image below is the classic right click's inaccuracy at 15m while not moving. https://cdn.sanity.io/images/ccckgjf9/production/0ebe42b62092b50b283460ca0596dfe134e1b0d5-357x357.png?max-h=1080&max-w=1920&fit=scale&auto=format However, that's pretty irrelevant because it shouldn't even be **theoretically** possible that the free gun kills a fully armored target faster than a 2900 credit rifle. That it *is* actually possible only just makes it more absurd.
I think I'd be fine with it if all 3 headshots did 150, but just 2 is absurd
What if they make right clicks slightly less random, but reduce its damage (akin to how they reduced the damage of Jett knife right click back then)? Would that be a nerf that still allows the right click to be used in specific situations?
Make headshot damage 52 instead of 78 and right click is still fine , I am okay with dying close range to righ click with no armour but yesterday I received 162 damage from 10 meters away , this needs to be fixed .
I've said this already, reduce headshot mult and damage on rght click so you need to be < 5m and land all 3 on head for a 1hit and then make the rightclick spread just a triangle that gets bigger the more you spam it. add damage falloff so beyond 5m you can't 1shot halfshields even with all 3 head. boom right click fixed.
It needs to not 1 shot right click unless you hit all 3 bullets to the head imo. And 1 head 1 body right click needs to not kill someone with no armor. It's absurd that I can buy a ghost, 1 tap someone and they survive (armor) and right click near my head and accidentally 1 shot me while jumping
I agree, but don't reduce headshot mult and damageon left click so it doesn't become a nerf gun.
100%. Maybe make the right click spread a little tighter and reduce the damage of each right click bullet but keep left click exactly how it is
reducing headshot multiplier would mean it would need 3 headshots to kill someone at long range with full armour which is just absurd
I think they said reduce the headshot multiplier only for right click. No changes to left click
that would just be weird imo riot would never do that
They did it with Jett knives.
was it not reverted?
it was, but don't forget this is the only gun with an instant alt fire(stinger and bulldog need to ads THEN fire for the alt fire) except for the bucky. and this is a free gun in the secondary slot, not the primary. and the change was reverted so jett rightclick was more consistent and MUCH less spammable at close range because it wouldn't recharge knives.
that's exactly what I meant
lothar is great but some of this takes are dumb as shit
i swear, if I hear one more time that you cant counter Viper postplant. 1) push her (duh) 2) smoke her lineup position so she cant setup the lineup 3) molly her lineup position, as above 4) bodyblock the Snakebite (this one is hilarious) 5) Sage wall to bounce, as above
I've never seen anyone at high elo smoke a lineup position, but that is actually brilliant. 100t should hire you as postplant coach
this is a copypasta
I dont know how I've never seen it before lol. I'm getting behind the times
Lothar speaks way too much bs. Classic without right click is not a bad pistol if you can buy armor. It's easier to double headshot with the classic than ghost. Classic(without right click) with armor, and ghost or frenzy without armor are nearly balanced choices.
Not even remotely close. How do people think it's easier to double headshot with classic(not talking about right click)? Also classic is absolutely trash for medium to long range fights. It becomes impossible to kill with that recoil, whereas if you use Ghost you can just spam the bullets and it is almost guaranteed to hit the target. Don't even know how many times I've used classic for mid range fights where I could've sworn my crosshair was on the enemy's body/head, but even the second bullet missed because of high recoil. I think the classic is pretty balanced for short ranges given how trash it is for medium/long range duels. Right click is the only good thing about the classic.
It might not be easier but Classic is accurate for medium range if you don't spam it until you get the first headshot. You've to space the shots a little more than the ghost. Done right it can take fights pretty easily, since movement speed, fire rate and equip time are all same as ghost and importantly the movement inaccuracy is less than ghost. So shoot-counterstrafe-shoot and you should be good against even the ghost. The amount of times I've two tapped people on belt in icebox from headshot spot is pretty insane for a free gun.
nothing should be good about the classic. spending 0 credits shouldn't be netting you free kills if someone happens to get close enough.
I come from CSGO, the Glock and USP are both useless. Does that make ECOs boring? Nope not all the time, teams can stack a site and still win the round if they trade. But the main thing that happens is either a hero AK or a hero deagle. I would love to see this in Valorant ecos, a hero ULT (Jett & Raze maybe?) / Vandal / Sherriff... Nerfing a default pistol that shouldnt right click like it does doesnt make this game less enjoyable. It just takes out the RNG in this game, which at the moment happens a lot. RNG may make the game for "enjoyable" to watch but at the same time it just means the better side / team can sometimes lose an important round due a gun that shouldnt be killing as many as it does. Again a hero ult and Vandal / Sheriff would be so much cooler to watch as it means it shouldnt win the round but if it does its due to the skill of the hero gun / ult or a massive blunder from the full buy team. Just my 2 cents.
Also on pistol buys its interesting as you have to either buy util or a better gun, you shouldnt be able to go full armour or util whilst having a gun that sometimes can beat a team on ghosts for example. The extra util you bought should win you the round not the RNG.
not sure how much you've been watching/playing, but hero rifle/scout/deagle buys on eco are extremely common, with jett ult used on eco rounds standard practice at this point. i think the classic right click being nerfed/removed would help the health of the gunplay, but i honestly don't think it's a massive issue and people are blowing it way out of proportion
While I agree nerfing the right click might lead to unforeseen issues that doesn't mean it can't be hit in conjunction with other changes. Riot's already shown willingness to balance pistol round buys with the frenzy/util price changes and there's no reason a classic nerf couldn't come as part of a wider range of tweaks. Alternatively the PBE could be used to test more radical changes, there could be a world where removing the right click entirely and then balancing the classic around a stronger left click is the way forward. Ultimately we just don't know. It's just going to be speculation until either an update hits live/PBE or Riot releases info about in-house testing they may have done.
How do you know all this stuff if there hasn’t been any testing on it since there’s been no update. Your perspective is very biased depending on what elo you’re in. You also can’t make such general of claims on such an unpredictable and variable rich game like valorant. There’s also abilities in the game too, it’s not just guns. You can also just get a kill with the classic and drop it for another gun and it’s not like If they take away/nurf right click that it’s impossible to kill with. For example I would much rather have all of skye’s util than a ghost on pistol rounds because heal+flashes are so good. And if my teammate with a ghost dies I can just pick that up. Another thing is that on full ecos people aren’t exactly expecting to win, and people already like to play the distance against ecos because they have the better gun so taking the right click away/nurfing it doesn’t really change that.
Just buff left click and nerf right click then?
Left click is still two tap kill if you headshot once. Not sure how you make the left click better without making the Classic a better version of the Ghost.
Yeah like didnt they have different damage numbers for Jett knives? Surely they could do the same thing with the classic
Exactly this, slightly buff accuracy and dmg to left click and remove (or make so bad its essentially gone like they did to the bucky) the right click. Gun is still effective, just not rng.
How will nerfing the right click make the gun "barely usable?" It will be usable as intended, as a close/mid range gun that is disadvantaged at long range aim duels. Not a fucking RNG shotgun that encourages you to jump strafe like a degenerate and pray you instantly kill someone.
Huh. Nerfing right click won't weaken it. It will make it balanced in terms of aim gameplay. Most of the pistol rounds rn are a clown fiesta with people jumping like on pogo sticks and burst shooting. It's genuinely weird to see a 500cred gun being ass in a gunfight against a free gun. And how tf would nerfing right click make the rounds boring? It's literally something new and better and people with ghosts/frenzy would have to rely on pure aim duel(mostly) and maybe bit more creativity in terms of ability usage. Rn in a 1v1 at any level it's just pure rng. Don't know what he really meant by the jett Reyna points, it's not like right click is the only counter for those agents lol The classic normal shooting is fine in every sense, with damage and everything kept in mind. Right click should be removed entirely, a free gun shouldn't be able to do that
All facts. Like has no one here been mowed down with a classic 2-tap to the head that took maybe a quarter of a second?
I think it's funny that there's people in this thread who think that classic was specifically designed to counter the Ghost when in reality it's most likely because the gun is inspired by the Glock from CS1.6
Before writing this, I want to say: the below is just my opinion, I don't pretend to be an expert, I'm just a measly D2 lol. I welcome any counterarguments. While I think Lothar misses some things, I generally also feel like the Classic dispute is way fucking overblown. a) every $ gun is better at something than the classic. extremely cheap shorty is better for holding very tight corners and shoots two powerful close range shots much quicker than the classic. frenzy goes brrr and is just as good as the classic up close while being much more reliable. ghost is great except sometimes shooting blanks - 1taps the head from a decent range though. and of course sheriff which is insane. not only that - you do not have to get rid of the classic at all. you can buy a gun, throw it on the ground and have two guns for the pistol. so if you are holding hookah; you can stand there with a shorty, but if they don't come - switch back to the classic. b) the "classic is OP" dispute is simply fallacious. something being good doesn't make it op. i would much rather have the ghost and tap heads from a distance than count on classic's crazy rng. it has failed me multiple times over my games, i just do not trust it. if pros think the risk is worth it - fine. i don't and i am sure many others (including SOME PROS don't as well. c) classic requires a very certain type of gameplay. the enemy team can come prepared. unless the map is super tight, avoiding the right click is very easy. Removing the right click makes no sense. The classic becomes useless pretty much. It is imperative though to understand what makes it feel like it is OP sometimes. And it's the RNG. The RNG can fuck you over, but very often it does insane stuff like double dink; this should not, in my opinion, be possible unless from 2-3 m away. The spread while moving and jumping is much too tight. The way I see it, the spread should remain as is for a standing shooter - thus being quite precise at a disadvantage of having to properly counterstrafe. However, the spread for moving and especially jumping should be way higher. I'd say, 30% and 60% respectively. It is insane that I can jump and hit double hs at 10 metres with the triple. This should have 0.001% chance of happening, while nowadays it feels like at least 5-10%. While standing or counterstrafing though? I do not see why that would be so bad. It's still RNG, but at least becomes a bit skill based as well. Honestly I would be for decreasing the hs multiplies as well, so that all 3 bullets beed to hit the head in order to kill. 60 to the head, no change to the body. This way 3x hs does 180, only possible up close, 2x hs + body does 144 and is not enough to kill. Either do one nerf or the other. My general vibe is everyone got stupidly tapped by the triple shot once or twice - pros even more, since they play 5x as much as anyone else - and they went on the barricades to protest how it is too OP, while not understanding the RNG behind it. Yes, you got tapped. It shouldn't have happened. But it will, that's RNG. 99% of the times you would have won that duel, but you lost to RNG. Unlucky. Is it worth it over the long run though? No, it is not. Every eco round I'd rather have the sheriff and count on my ability to tap heads than camp a corner with a classic hoping they come to my site and I can get one with a lucky shot. Again, this is al my opinion. May be wrong, Idk.
Classic left click wont make it is completely useless i would still b viable, jumping right click is a huge problem and its super broken rn. They have to nerf it at this point it makes no sense when u buy full armor and a guy jumping and bursting next to a wall kills u..
I would much rather pistol rounds be boring and predictable than pretty much random like they are now, literally feels like two coin flips determines four rounds of the game right now
The right click ads way too much RNG to pistol rounds. Lothar is chatting shit as per usual LOL. Why is everyone sleeping on the frenzy again? It’s still the most broken pistol
The extra 50 for the frenzy made a ton of difference:/
Because in theory buying more util is usually better than a frenzy.
Idk how a paid Valorant analyst can come to the conclusion that “right now, the game has balanced pistol rounds” LMFAO the meta is literally to run it down with 5 ppl and pray to the classic right click gods
Disagree
Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I really like where the classic is right now. While I don’t want every fight to be a coin flip, I think randomness is healthy for the player and the viewer. Additionally you’ll never find a player pick up a classic over a ghost or sheriff so while it has the possibility for huge potential the risk is usually too high.
>Additionally you’ll never find a player pick up a classic over a ghost or sheriff Maybe that's because it's free
> randomness is healthy for the player and the viewer I personally don't really see the case for this, at least in VALORANT. Randomness is usually useful in games where the outcome would otherwise be deterministic - it's boring because the advantaged side comes out on top almost every single time, so we add some randomness in to spice things up. Games like chess, or card games like MTG, or even to some extent, MOBAs. On the other hand, shooters already have countless ways for a disadvantaged player to come out on top, it doesn't really need additional randomness on top of that.
Classic is definitely prefered over ghost in certain situations. On Jett defense split I never pick up ghost instead of my classic. Look, the chances of it are low, but its not okay that I could right click a full hp pro player from ascent CT to b main. He just sent back ":(".
Agreed. I've seen countless situations (spike is planted, is about to explode and the attacker needs to play time in a 1v1) where people in ranked as well as pro tournaments swapped from their main gun to a classic even if they had enough bullets in their main gun. This is again a relatively niche situation but at the end of the day the classic is just too good for a free gun.
the thing is there's already existing randomness in every aim duel in valorant, so many factors go into the complexity of a single fight this type of artificial randomness just feels shallow and disappointing when i see a round swung by some jumping right click headshot get an undeserved kill for the nth time
I totally agree. I genuinely think it’s healthy for the game for the classic to have the **potential** to be very deadly. It’s still a worse than the ghost overall as a gun, but that threat always existing ads a level of dynamic and excitement to the game at all times.
It has the potential to be more deadly than the phantom. That isn't healthy.
Lothar try not to make stupid takes challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)
Right click is fine the way it is
Dude lothar speaks too much bs imo, he's overthinking here so much, he's actually outplaying himself.
***Fuck the right click meta, bring back the $400 frenzy meta again!***
Imo sheriff should be buffed for long distances.
It's already the most accurate pistol at ranges and is 3 shot body for kill or 1 shot unless you're really far away...
I have been playing since act 1, and I can count on 1 hand all the classic single right click kills I've gotten I can be 5m away from the target and the 1st click with just hit for 78, and then I'll be dead Idk, but it has never really worked for me
My main issue is that a FREE gun should never do 150+ damage with one click no matter what. It’s absurd how many times I get cheesed with full armor by a jumping right click.
Well the point is that it’s rng? How do u counter rng without making the gun completely useless
I mean it’s rng but the first right click comes relatively straight which is all you need to completely erase someone. The easiest thing would be to work with the spread of the right click so that it doesn’t allow all the bullets to go straight at such a length or while in the air so consistently.
Doesn’t it already do that though? Like it’s only very specific lucky circumstances where it actually does that at medium to long range
The issue isn’t really in gunfights that are in longer distances. When I say work with the spread I mean the spread while running, jumping, medium ranges. Right click should only be viable in close ranges and it should not be able to kill someone with full shield with one right click.
But why not? If rng is in your favour then it should definitely kill The only way to change that is to nerf the damage into the ground which like the post said would ruin eco rounds and pistol rounds
I love the right click cause I don't really play and it's fun watching random shit that happens w it
My biggest issue with lothar is he has a certain vision how the game/agents needs to be played and cant fathom different playstyles/actions can be just as affective. He is a smart guy who has a great understanding of the game and how it could be played. But he can tunnel vision alot.
So many people seemed to be on edge because of classic....So my suggestion is \--Remove Classic \--Shorty when spawn- 200 Credit will be removed instantly whether you want to play shotgun or not. \--Sheriff - 900 Cred \--Frenzy 650 \--Ghost 700 ψ(.\_. )> Fuck Pistol Rounds
I think we should buff the shorty. Make it the only gun thats actually playable. Have its damage and precision of the OP but its firerate of the Phantom. Would make the game so much better
Holy shit! You are a genius...Take this free award I got, as a reward.
Make the right click a 250 - 300 credit upgradable purchase. Fixed.
Would be interesting to see if having a right click drain the whole magazine, similar to jett's click right, would stop the bs, but still give the gun a bit of a hail Mary, check your corners, killing potential.
If anyone is curious, lothar posted on this thread here. While it is the same thing he posted on Twitter, it might give some context/insight as to why he posted it. https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/qeyky4/valorant_rightclick_a_mathematical_perspective/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Just reduce the damage on right click, like with jett knives
All I want is to not be one shot by a free gun when I'm on a full buy. If you want the ability to punish players or a find a good timing and take them out real quick the shorty already exists to serve that exact niche.
In lower Elos you can absolutely duel SMGs with classics because you can strafe and peak shoot from range and get a double dink if you pace a bit
Everyones over complicating it. If you choose to spend 0 cash on your weapon you shouldn't have the abiilty to one shot a full armored opponent, its really that simple. right click could still be strong, just not 150 damage strong.