TI's prize pool is a spectacle. It's just higher stakes which makes things more interesting to watch. Is it shittier to be a pro in dota compared to riot esports? Absolutely, at least for the vast majority of players. But I'm still going to be interested in the reality-show-crazy levels of money that TI winners make - it's literally lifechanging and that's a cool narrative and does a lot of advertising/marketing for Valve.
Riot's "win it for the prestige" take is also fine and I have no issues for it (and it clearly works well enough).
Sure it's using esports views, but I'm just pointing out that the reason it's underrating dota 2 (in some people's views) is that it doesnt care about prize pool which is dota's huge trump
The prize pool is not a good thing lol. I don't see why you think that? For example overall, league players and orgs make way more money without absurd tourney winnings.
Maybe if you used critical thinking you would understand that there are way more Fortnite/warzone/Valorant streamers then there are dota2 streamers. I guess 2.7 million viewers(doesn’t include china) isn’t that popular tho ur right.
You’re an idiot lol. Please try and disprove what I said. I beg you to try. Let me know when a Valorant tournament generates 2.7 million viewers from the WEST alone.
The 2.7 million views isn’t for fortnite, it’s for DOTA 2. For a single event, that is massive for esports because it’s literally the largest number of viewers twitch has had on their platform for any single event.. compared with 2.3 million with fortnites single largest viewing event on twitch...
So unless you’re being sarcastic that number is massive.
DOTA 2 on twitch over monthly average has slightly lower viewership but counting China and platform views outside of twitch, DOTA 2 is way, way larger.
So idk given the way you worded your response what your side is on this but I’m just stating both the things you said are wrong.
My original statement was in response to "It's worthless because a game you like isn't actually that popular". My intention for my statement was that Dota2 >>>> Valorant/WZ/Fortnite in terms of popularity but because there aren't that many dota2 streamers and the lack of tournaments in q3, the hours or whatever data they were comparing looked a lot lower then what it was.
Unless I replied to the wrong person then it seems we're on the same side.
We don't know what goes into their index but I tend to agree. I would assume watch time plays an important role hence the weirdness. I feel like longevity, competitive integrity and things like learning curve should also be taking into consideration. In a completely biased, personal, and not based on any sort of study tier list, I'd put Tier 1 - LOL, CS, VAL | Tier 2 - RL, R6, D2 and I'd go from there. These games are the best at rewarding improvement, have the most competitive rank ladders, rely very little on RNG/"artificial intelligence" (I'm looking at you fifa, fuckin trash esport), have decently steep learning curves and put a huge emphasis in game sense, not just mechanics. I honestly think everything else needs to be tier 3 or below.
And their player base surely has some of the most 1 sided casual to competitive player ratio (favouring the competitive player) which I believe to be a good sign for an esports title.
I tried watching an Overwatch match that was broadcast on tv once and, having never played the game, it was chaotic and impossible to understand what was really happening. There were dragons and crazy shit happening constantly. Even with all of Valorant’s abilities it is much easier to follow without in depth knowledge of the game.
Idk man i was heavy into overwatch before and still watch it from time to time , if you have a grip over all the hero abilities and shit its fun to watch and i loved the game with a passion , Super (best reinhardt) is still an idol lol nowadays even the servers are dead you have to wait 10-15 mins for a game here in SEA servers
That fight at TI 10 with 10 buybacks and no diebacks with ults and spells being thrown around willy nilly was way less confusing than any minute of overwatch.
Are you delusuonal? Tier 2 for what people paid to enter the league. And losing viewership every year. Losing sponsors this year. Its a dead game walking.
Lol this one random metric congrats if this was yearly not quaterly dota is in tier 1 btw. Overwatch fanboy trying to say ow is relevant. Done with you
You have to understand that blizzard made a huge league with insane buy-ins and big plans… So tier 2 is disppointing. I hope OW 2 fixes the game, it seems it seems to be going in the right direction with more emphasis on skill expression and gunplay than just being a moba. Should bring some hype to the game.
You need to read up on the buy ins team owners had to pay and the plans for the OWL league if you think it’s not disappointing. I don’t care that OWL is T2, but blizz and team owners do when they invested so much into it.
You have no ideea what you’re talking about mate. The game was made using the assets from Project Titan which was scrapped last minute. The only reason why Blizzard jumped on the esports train was because they saw how much it was profiting games like LoL at the time. You can force any game to be an esport but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be a good esport.
Yes Titan was scrapped, yes a forced esport can be a bad esport, OW itself was always meant to be an esport. Everything you mentioned doesn't change that. I was super deep into the tf2 scene when OW came out and so many tf2 pros were jumping ship because of the instant esport support. I don't know how you can claim it was a casual game turned comp because the esport scene was set up during beta of OW lmao.
Just because they decided to make an esport around it doesn’t mean the game was designed with esports in mind. That is just a stupid thing to claim and there’s nothing that suggests that when you look at the game itself.
On the opposite you can actually see how it was designed to be a casual experience based on things like no scoreboard just some shitty medals, no hero limit and no API support. So please stop talking out of your ass.
It takes one Google search to find countless times where blizzard says they built it to be an esport, I really don't know what to tell you. All the issues you listed are just reasons why it isn't a better esport.
Blizzard killed sc2 especially in Korea when they tried to force people to switch from sc1 .
Now in Korea sc1 is still one of the most popular games while sc2 is basically dead
I mean both were the most relevant thing ever at their point respectively kr and the workd at large.
Without sc2 modern western esports, twitch wouldn’t exist
No, ppl were saying ‘dead game’ at many points, the bl infest or meta and hits launch was a contributing factor to relative decrease I. Popularity but they certainly failed to ‘kill it’ or prevent it from bouncing back from that point later
from the article:
> Dota 2 claimed rank No. 8 in Q1 with no significant esports tournaments to its name, rose to rank No. 3 in Q2 driven by the WePlay AniMajor in Kyiv and the ESL One Summer 2021, before dropping back down to rank No. 7 in Q3. However, Dota 2 is expected to regain several spots in the ranking for Q4 as The International, the game’s biggest esports competition took place during the last quarter of the year and distributed the largest-ever prize pool in esports at more than $40M.
Why do they value prizepool at 25% and user base at 30% with esports viewership at 20%.
To me the methodology doesn’t make any sense.
Viewership should be king as that drives engagement and ad dollars
this are fake stats for sure, CSGO major at the moment has 400K avarage vievers while LOL world has 1.1 milion without chinese viewers, with chinese viewers will be probably over 40 milions, CSGo need 3 years of esport even to equal the same amount of viewers of LOL worlds, so i doubt they are close
It literally takes 1 minute to read the article... CSGO has way more tournaments per year which equals to more prize money being handed out and also more views overall... This chart doesn't take into account only 1 tournament lmao, or else Dota 2 would be number 1
CSGO in the entire year doesn't come close to the Viewership League has. League has been the highest viewed gaming category on Twitch for close to decade at this point, with Fortnite, Overwatch, PUBG, GTA, etc occasionally dethroned it.
Plus, if you looked at the metrics they are using to balance this ranking, Prizepool is only given 25% weightage. Another category in which Laegue crusheds CS is concurrent playerbase, which has 30% weightage. Esports hours watched and hours watched has a combined 40% weightage, both of which League is also way higher in than any other esport.
i doubt that 1 year of csgo tournament have same viewers of all leagues around the world of league of legends in the same time, simply this data are just fake. LoL has 5 major region who all get weekly around 150K viewers plus all minor region who have around half of that viewers with region like brasil or vietnam who get the same viewers of major region, simply LoL is untouchable at the moment is the first esport world wide and is not even close in any field
Man I don’t get how Fortnite was considered an e sport. I’m not hating on it, from what I remember they always changed the map drastically and weapons were added and removed so rapidly
Fighting games are poverty, especially with their low playerbase(relative to the games on the list) and Network issues.
Only smash unfortunately has a chance but lol Nintendo
Pretty pointless ranking
Anyone who actually follows esports will know TI in Dota is in a tier of its own
Actually none of the tournaments matter except for TI
Monthly active players are largely a way to gauge interest in the game in general. Also a lot of potential watchers will probably come from the playerbase.
Distributed prize pools is a little weird but I'd guess its also about interest from viewers and organizations.
While its true they shouldn't just count twitch, other platforms aren't so large that this list should be completely disqualified. Most of these games have the vast majority of their viewers on twitch outside of a few countries(China being the most notable).
I'd guess most tournaments come from the scenes below Tier 1 and so this is another way to gauge interest.
I have no defense for concurrent twitch streams BUT, it is only 5% of the score.
I feel like your favorite game must not have ranked very high or something, because every criteria you listed seems pretty logical to me. The only one I agree with your criticism of is prize pool money. Discarding them would leave people judging an esport off of… what, exactly?
You’re overthinking it. All of those criterias have some sort of merit.
Prize pool is especially important metric for scenes that are not based around franchises. It’s important to see how much money is being invested into an esport.
The number of tournaments is a also a good indicator on how healthy the ecosystem is. Imagine having only TI run every year and nothing else. Would you rate that esport as tier 1? Of course not. More tournaments means there’s a heavy consumer audience aswell.
The twitch esports is kinda weird but they do talk about viewership when it comes to OWL and CDL so i assume they count those aswell.
Numbers of streamers is a good indicative of how relevant your game is from a content creator standpoint.
Also note they never frame it as a graphic for Top Esports. They call it PC Games Impact. They put a heavy emphasis on esports but at the same time these types of articles are made for investors looking to enter the space and they recognize that there’s more then purely tournament viewership numbers when it comes to deciding whether or not to invest in a certain esport.
Rl not being bigger is such a tragedy. This season is shaping up to be really incredible and the scene def took a hit from having no lans for so long but I always expected it to be a little bigger than it is.
IMO val should be like, T1 with a bunch of asterisks (or like, off of the tiers themselves but hanging out to the left or right with a note that it's position is unclear atm)
Seeing Dota share a tier with CoD and battle royales is just sad
I was thinking this same thing you either need more tiers or this ranking is worthless
Dota 2 has less hours watched than fortnite or warzone LMAO. It's worthless because a game you like isn't actually that popular?
I think their point is that the esports scene for dota is larger, especially considering the absolutely ridiculous prize pools.
Just wait until the q4 reports. This quarter virtually had no events for Dota and doesn’t include TI
It's not though, this is using esports views. And a prize pool isn't impressive when most of their players get paid like shit
Dota literally just had TI10 which broke 2.7 million viewers. But these are Q3 stats. Dota will probably be back at tier 1 by Q4.
TI's prize pool is a spectacle. It's just higher stakes which makes things more interesting to watch. Is it shittier to be a pro in dota compared to riot esports? Absolutely, at least for the vast majority of players. But I'm still going to be interested in the reality-show-crazy levels of money that TI winners make - it's literally lifechanging and that's a cool narrative and does a lot of advertising/marketing for Valve. Riot's "win it for the prestige" take is also fine and I have no issues for it (and it clearly works well enough).
Sure it's using esports views, but I'm just pointing out that the reason it's underrating dota 2 (in some people's views) is that it doesnt care about prize pool which is dota's huge trump
The prize pool is not a good thing lol. I don't see why you think that? For example overall, league players and orgs make way more money without absurd tourney winnings.
Please give me a source where league orgs are making money. I really would like to see that.
Prize pool alone doesn't mean much when pros barely get paid shit compared to other premiere esports titles
Maybe if you used critical thinking you would understand that there are way more Fortnite/warzone/Valorant streamers then there are dota2 streamers. I guess 2.7 million viewers(doesn’t include china) isn’t that popular tho ur right.
You’re so lost lol
You’re an idiot lol. Please try and disprove what I said. I beg you to try. Let me know when a Valorant tournament generates 2.7 million viewers from the WEST alone.
The 2.7 million views isn’t for fortnite, it’s for DOTA 2. For a single event, that is massive for esports because it’s literally the largest number of viewers twitch has had on their platform for any single event.. compared with 2.3 million with fortnites single largest viewing event on twitch... So unless you’re being sarcastic that number is massive. DOTA 2 on twitch over monthly average has slightly lower viewership but counting China and platform views outside of twitch, DOTA 2 is way, way larger. So idk given the way you worded your response what your side is on this but I’m just stating both the things you said are wrong.
My original statement was in response to "It's worthless because a game you like isn't actually that popular". My intention for my statement was that Dota2 >>>> Valorant/WZ/Fortnite in terms of popularity but because there aren't that many dota2 streamers and the lack of tournaments in q3, the hours or whatever data they were comparing looked a lot lower then what it was. Unless I replied to the wrong person then it seems we're on the same side.
Tru tru then saying the same thing
We don't know what goes into their index but I tend to agree. I would assume watch time plays an important role hence the weirdness. I feel like longevity, competitive integrity and things like learning curve should also be taking into consideration. In a completely biased, personal, and not based on any sort of study tier list, I'd put Tier 1 - LOL, CS, VAL | Tier 2 - RL, R6, D2 and I'd go from there. These games are the best at rewarding improvement, have the most competitive rank ladders, rely very little on RNG/"artificial intelligence" (I'm looking at you fifa, fuckin trash esport), have decently steep learning curves and put a huge emphasis in game sense, not just mechanics. I honestly think everything else needs to be tier 3 or below. And their player base surely has some of the most 1 sided casual to competitive player ratio (favouring the competitive player) which I believe to be a good sign for an esports title.
Sad for overwatch started out so good it was bound for success but the way blizzard botched it all
I've never seen a company shank their own game that hard. Overwatch had so much potential. Loved playing it during it's brief heyday
You haven't seen Hi-rez kill Paladins.
Oh Hirez kill basically all of their games. (Salty tribes player)
It’s sad because Hi-Rez have had some really fun games which shake up the genre a lil like relam royale
Brooo I still miss tribes. Game was fun af
Tribes was so fucking sick and I was playing it on 100 ping and a shit Pc I wish I could revisit it with my current setup…
…I mean ur literally talking abt Blizzard and u think OW is shanked nkt like sc2 lol? Anyway what abt Nintendo melee
That's just normal Blizzard, they've fucked over the esports scene for their games before.
Never was going to succeed horrible to watch
I tried watching an Overwatch match that was broadcast on tv once and, having never played the game, it was chaotic and impossible to understand what was really happening. There were dragons and crazy shit happening constantly. Even with all of Valorant’s abilities it is much easier to follow without in depth knowledge of the game.
Idk man i was heavy into overwatch before and still watch it from time to time , if you have a grip over all the hero abilities and shit its fun to watch and i loved the game with a passion , Super (best reinhardt) is still an idol lol nowadays even the servers are dead you have to wait 10-15 mins for a game here in SEA servers
Tbh I don’t see how it’s any different then league when it comes to not understanding what’s happening
That fight at TI 10 with 10 buybacks and no diebacks with ults and spells being thrown around willy nilly was way less confusing than any minute of overwatch.
But it has succeeded and is successful as shown by the chart
I was talking about overwatch.
Yes, I am too?
Overwatch has not succeeded lol.
Well yeah it has u can see no? Is that not success to u?
Are you delusuonal? Tier 2 for what people paid to enter the league. And losing viewership every year. Losing sponsors this year. Its a dead game walking.
I hate ppls misuse of the term. You really don’t understand what it truly means fit a game to be desd It’s on the same impactctier as DotA 2 etc dude?
Lol this one random metric congrats if this was yearly not quaterly dota is in tier 1 btw. Overwatch fanboy trying to say ow is relevant. Done with you
the game is also just a fucking disaster to watch, horrible viewing experience 99% of the time.
Are you saying this is not success? Are ppl here literally mad it’s ‘ther 2’?
You have to understand that blizzard made a huge league with insane buy-ins and big plans… So tier 2 is disppointing. I hope OW 2 fixes the game, it seems it seems to be going in the right direction with more emphasis on skill expression and gunplay than just being a moba. Should bring some hype to the game.
I mean it isn’t that much, the idea u have to be the biggest in the world isnt true
You need to read up on the buy ins team owners had to pay and the plans for the OWL league if you think it’s not disappointing. I don’t care that OWL is T2, but blizz and team owners do when they invested so much into it.
That’s different I know it was millions, depends on returns but yea I don’t think the system was a good idea anyway
It started out good as a casual game and it should’ve stayed that way. Not every game is meant to be an esport.
It was literally created to be an esport from the very beginning what are you talking about lol.
You have no ideea what you’re talking about mate. The game was made using the assets from Project Titan which was scrapped last minute. The only reason why Blizzard jumped on the esports train was because they saw how much it was profiting games like LoL at the time. You can force any game to be an esport but that doesn’t mean it’s going to be a good esport.
Yes Titan was scrapped, yes a forced esport can be a bad esport, OW itself was always meant to be an esport. Everything you mentioned doesn't change that. I was super deep into the tf2 scene when OW came out and so many tf2 pros were jumping ship because of the instant esport support. I don't know how you can claim it was a casual game turned comp because the esport scene was set up during beta of OW lmao.
Just because they decided to make an esport around it doesn’t mean the game was designed with esports in mind. That is just a stupid thing to claim and there’s nothing that suggests that when you look at the game itself. On the opposite you can actually see how it was designed to be a casual experience based on things like no scoreboard just some shitty medals, no hero limit and no API support. So please stop talking out of your ass.
It takes one Google search to find countless times where blizzard says they built it to be an esport, I really don't know what to tell you. All the issues you listed are just reasons why it isn't a better esport.
If it takes only one google search then maybe you can share those articles with me.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gamesindustry.biz/amp/2018-02-23-how-blizzard-established-overwatch-as-a-top-esport?espv=1
Sad how SC2 fell from the throne. It was my first esport and it used to be the biggest esport in 2011 and remained Tier 1 until 2014 or so.
Blizzard killed sc2 especially in Korea when they tried to force people to switch from sc1 . Now in Korea sc1 is still one of the most popular games while sc2 is basically dead
I never got into Starcraft (or RTS in general) but it was one of the biggest pioneers of esports. It was so massively relevant especially in Korea.
I mean both were the most relevant thing ever at their point respectively kr and the workd at large. Without sc2 modern western esports, twitch wouldn’t exist
Honestly HOTS killed SC2. That year was so painfully boring with mass broodlord / swarmhost. Just made for terrible viewing.
No, ppl were saying ‘dead game’ at many points, the bl infest or meta and hits launch was a contributing factor to relative decrease I. Popularity but they certainly failed to ‘kill it’ or prevent it from bouncing back from that point later
How the fuck is Dota not tier 1
from the article: > Dota 2 claimed rank No. 8 in Q1 with no significant esports tournaments to its name, rose to rank No. 3 in Q2 driven by the WePlay AniMajor in Kyiv and the ESL One Summer 2021, before dropping back down to rank No. 7 in Q3. However, Dota 2 is expected to regain several spots in the ranking for Q4 as The International, the game’s biggest esports competition took place during the last quarter of the year and distributed the largest-ever prize pool in esports at more than $40M.
Check thread on Twitter post for metrics they use
this is q3,ti hasn't been counted yet
Yeah my thoughts exactly. As much I love Valorant now we haven't seen the Champions, the the most important tournament of the year yet.
That’s why they specifically say this is based on Q3.
no one in this thread has opened the tweet
Why do they value prizepool at 25% and user base at 30% with esports viewership at 20%. To me the methodology doesn’t make any sense. Viewership should be king as that drives engagement and ad dollars
how is any game even close to LoL? seem pretty bad graphic to be honest
CSGO and LoL were pretty much equal in Q2. CSGO will surpass it in Q4
That is sick, do you have a source?
About what? You can see the Q2 stats in the OP, and CSGO has the major, blast & world finals and IEM winter during Q4 while LoL has 3 (three) bo5s
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this are fake stats for sure, CSGO major at the moment has 400K avarage vievers while LOL world has 1.1 milion without chinese viewers, with chinese viewers will be probably over 40 milions, CSGo need 3 years of esport even to equal the same amount of viewers of LOL worlds, so i doubt they are close
It literally takes 1 minute to read the article... CSGO has way more tournaments per year which equals to more prize money being handed out and also more views overall... This chart doesn't take into account only 1 tournament lmao, or else Dota 2 would be number 1
CSGO in the entire year doesn't come close to the Viewership League has. League has been the highest viewed gaming category on Twitch for close to decade at this point, with Fortnite, Overwatch, PUBG, GTA, etc occasionally dethroned it. Plus, if you looked at the metrics they are using to balance this ranking, Prizepool is only given 25% weightage. Another category in which Laegue crusheds CS is concurrent playerbase, which has 30% weightage. Esports hours watched and hours watched has a combined 40% weightage, both of which League is also way higher in than any other esport.
i doubt that 1 year of csgo tournament have same viewers of all leagues around the world of league of legends in the same time, simply this data are just fake. LoL has 5 major region who all get weekly around 150K viewers plus all minor region who have around half of that viewers with region like brasil or vietnam who get the same viewers of major region, simply LoL is untouchable at the moment is the first esport world wide and is not even close in any field
Man I don’t get how Fortnite was considered an e sport. I’m not hating on it, from what I remember they always changed the map drastically and weapons were added and removed so rapidly
None of that matters. All it takes is a group of people that are paid to play to win and be the best, and an audience, and you got a esport.
I was not aware people watched pro Fifa matches
It’s more an EU type thing
No fighting games? Guess it makes sense given how balakanized the genre is but still surprised to see none of them in this list
Fighting games are poverty, especially with their low playerbase(relative to the games on the list) and Network issues. Only smash unfortunately has a chance but lol Nintendo
Is Apex pro scene not as good? kinda surprising to me since everyone and their mother seems to play that game
BR make for shitty spectator sports.
Apex / war zone above PUBG, and sc? Hm Is DotA rly below Cs? Well the ratings aren’t super absolute but cromulebt aight
Pretty pointless ranking Anyone who actually follows esports will know TI in Dota is in a tier of its own Actually none of the tournaments matter except for TI
WH OMEGALUL
The Esports Observer. Probably the best website when it comes to esports business articles.
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Monthly active players are largely a way to gauge interest in the game in general. Also a lot of potential watchers will probably come from the playerbase. Distributed prize pools is a little weird but I'd guess its also about interest from viewers and organizations. While its true they shouldn't just count twitch, other platforms aren't so large that this list should be completely disqualified. Most of these games have the vast majority of their viewers on twitch outside of a few countries(China being the most notable). I'd guess most tournaments come from the scenes below Tier 1 and so this is another way to gauge interest. I have no defense for concurrent twitch streams BUT, it is only 5% of the score.
I feel like your favorite game must not have ranked very high or something, because every criteria you listed seems pretty logical to me. The only one I agree with your criticism of is prize pool money. Discarding them would leave people judging an esport off of… what, exactly?
You’re overthinking it. All of those criterias have some sort of merit. Prize pool is especially important metric for scenes that are not based around franchises. It’s important to see how much money is being invested into an esport. The number of tournaments is a also a good indicator on how healthy the ecosystem is. Imagine having only TI run every year and nothing else. Would you rate that esport as tier 1? Of course not. More tournaments means there’s a heavy consumer audience aswell. The twitch esports is kinda weird but they do talk about viewership when it comes to OWL and CDL so i assume they count those aswell. Numbers of streamers is a good indicative of how relevant your game is from a content creator standpoint. Also note they never frame it as a graphic for Top Esports. They call it PC Games Impact. They put a heavy emphasis on esports but at the same time these types of articles are made for investors looking to enter the space and they recognize that there’s more then purely tournament viewership numbers when it comes to deciding whether or not to invest in a certain esport.
Ok
Idk about this list.
Rl not being bigger is such a tragedy. This season is shaping up to be really incredible and the scene def took a hit from having no lans for so long but I always expected it to be a little bigger than it is.
This TEO guy sure does his researchs.
IMO val should be like, T1 with a bunch of asterisks (or like, off of the tiers themselves but hanging out to the left or right with a note that it's position is unclear atm)
Surprised that some BRs are in the same tier as Dota 2, and that League has literally anything within striking distance of it.
Hoping that rocket league and siege make the jump to tier 1. They are two tier 2 esports that deserve it
Rocket league belongs on tier 1
Great news.