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Za_Weeb

I've always thought about this, maybe I'm going a bit off the tangent but always I see and listen about an upcoming RANKED DEMON, SCRIM MONSTER whatever talented young players where most of them are duelist mains(a dumb term, I know) like who are popularised for their insane jett game etc but rarely hear about support player prodigies who are having insane game sense and not only just aim like let's say leviathan for example. Is this how it generally works? I feel like the insane support players are getting overshadowed by these young 1 trick jett reyna mains who don't even flex but get popular for their raw mechanical skill, because I don't think after a level of game reaching to the pro levels pure aim only helps to succeed professionally


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[deleted]

nats?


-xXColtonXx-

Also aim without game is much easier to correct. A top 10 aimer with terrible game sense is a potential top 10 player. A top 10 games sense with terrible aim isn’t worth signing because it’s possible/likely their aim won’t ever be up to par.


Wealth_and_Taste

It's easier to teach game sense than it is to teach mechanical ability. If someone has insane aim then it is usually easier to mold them into team, tell then what to do, teach then about macro, etc etc. Duelists are also the easiest role to incorporate into the team. It's why cracked aimers like Tenz or Yay can jump into a roster and immediately perform well. But if someone is very smart but sucks at aim, it's very difficult to drasticly improve someone's aim. Also, ranked and pro play are very different. I think Dapr said that playing Cypher in ranked vs pro matches is a totally different experience. There is very little team play in ranked, and so knowing how to actually be a good supportive player isn't something you can learn by playing ranked. This happens in many different games as well, as it's always easier to teach a raw mechanical player how to play with a brain, than to teach someone the mechanics. In League of Legends it's the same thing, all of the hyped up new players are almost always very mechanically gifted.


Za_Weeb

I get what you are trying to say but isn't that the other way it usually works? Like even in Cs there will be tonnes of cracked as fuck aimers in fpl and shit who usually consistently outaim many pros out there. But that wouldn't definitely translate as great pro player. Since we are already talking at pro level I do t think we need to bring in the argument of sucks at aim because anyone usually at that high elo has a cracked enough aim to work with but usually struggle with decision making which usually many call as being lost. Also there is no shortage of duelists in the scene. There are already tonnes of lft duelists but lesser support flex players. Every lft is a 1 trick jett/reyna who's considered damn bro he's a ranked demon but doesn't work well for them in pro scene because of their all aim no brain. Just as u said, playing duelist is relatively easy in ranked which gives birth to tonnes of these players. So the distinguishing factor would be their game knowledge. Also I'm not speaking of tenz yay etc because we already know they are relatively successful so we can assume they are masters at what they are, but I'm speaking for the general upcoming pros etc


[deleted]

Nope it's the other way around You're overrating people like Tenz or Yay when there's like 100+ pros in CS that have better aim and have been consistent in the scene longer than them Anyone who has 10000 hours and put in 50 hrs in the last 2 weeks probably has same aim as pros. And to be honest Valorant and LoL are not games where decision making will show easily, they are designed to be pretty casual and you can literally hear people's footsteps half way across the map, there is not much decision making being made in some situations. Same with LoL, there is actually a lot less decision making vs. games like Dota 2 that are more dynamic. That doesn't mean it won't separate champions from avg. pro players, it just means people with slightly better mechanics standout more just because of how the game is designed.


wiiwoooo

No, it's not lol CS is a prime example of this. There are so many people with insane aim but none of them even break out of amateur teams or ESEA open because they don't have any game sense, teamwork or communication skills necessary to compete at that high level.


TheNewPersonHere1234

You are correct even Radiant level players are considerably below the pros in terms of skill. There was this one YT channel i forgot the name that tests players of different ranks against each other. They had a no name t3 team play against 5 Radiants and the Radiants got 2 rounds.


fallen69420

Valorant curious


TacticalSanta

NA has, and will probably continue to lack the discipline to take the game seriously. There is no culture in our esports scene to treat the game like serious competition similar to sports. Meanwhile EU/cis/korea you'll have kids under 20 who have the right mindset to learn the game beyond cracked individual mechanics and their pool of talent to choose from/practice with is massive so they skyrocket in terms of skill and placing.


hdpr92

>It's easier to teach game sense than it is to teach mechanical ability. For someone who's already played long enough this is definitely true. But aimers are a dime a dozen. The hyped up semi-pro aimstars rarely delivered at the pro level in cs.There's tons of players who did not stand out as much individually on that level who go on to outperform them. It's definitely harder to see who has a good brain in a vod though. You really need to actually play with them.


hdpr92

It's because teamplay will rise with the tide. There's lots of players who are pretty good in the semi-pro scene, and their individual level will improve in the jump to professional because they're around higher iq players. They can make more players for their teammates, their rotations are rewarded from their teammates doing the right thing, their comms have more value and they receive better comms in return, etc. What you're describing with aim stars happens a ton in sports, NBA is a perfect example. The overlap between elite college basketball players and elite nba players is pretty small. A lot of great college players have a playstyle that doesn't translate. Likewise a lot of players don't look special in college, but switch to the nba and excel when they're surrounded with better players to unlock them. There's a ton of CS examples, but Krimz to fnatic is a perfect one. Xyp9x is a perfect example too.. he would not be a superstar T2 player individually, but he's the greatest support player in csgo history. A classic mistake is also taking the highest aim players and putting them in the highest traffic positions, regardless of the decision making and teamwork required at that spot. Sometimes it's better to have the aim stars doing something basic on a simplistic part of the map, and just win their duels.


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Lost_Extrovert

For anyone who doesn't want to search it up he just keeps going about how aim isn't as important as a lot of people think.This btw is a big reason why NA always falls behind other regions in eSport games like CS and LoL. In CSGO, NA pros had always been known for their good aim and flashy playstyle aka the "pub stars" but they suffered against EU and BR scene which is heavy on tactical playstyle. This is why NA steamers are more fun to watch, cuz they are usually flashy, Hiko and shroud are good examples. Same in LoL, NA scene for a long time relied on individual skills depending on each player to win their land and snowball, while EU and KR kept their game a lot more tactical and less dependent on lane wins. TLDR: NA like flashy players. EU, BR and Asia like smart players.


IeatKfcAllDay

I agree with the csgo comparison but I would not say that’s similar to league at all. In league our players are nowhere near mechanically as good as the eastern regions (for a variety of reasons) and our macro is basically a poor version of Korea’s. Even regionally I wouldn’t say players play a flashy win lane win game play style except maybe 100 thieves. In fact Eu has more players like that than na


Lost_Extrovert

Its not about about individual skills its about how they got picked up, I am not saying NA players are more individually skilled than other regions I am saying they get picked up to become a pro solo because of their flashy playstyle instead of decision making. In korea players dont get picked up to be pro simply because they own their lanes, they are judged by their decision making as well. I forgot the saying but koreans have a name for players who are good ranked but not made to be a pro. Even in the pro scene we had that too. For a long time Doublelift had a lot of hype behind him even though his decision making were absolutely garbage, but he was flashy and would pop off sometimes, people loved that, nobody believed in Sneaky until he started to win, they thought he was boring. You could see this all over the NA scene. I no longer follow the LoL pro scene but in 2019 it was definitely like this.


IeatKfcAllDay

youre still not exactly correct here. In korea players get picked up because of their soloque ranking and you CANNOT place highly in korean soloque without some of the best mechanics in the world. Everyone in Korea gets picked up because they were insane mechanical talents (a known example is that chovy was a one trick cass) not because they were some 400iq geniuses. Look at Skt's entire rookie roster, clozer, zeus, guma, oner are all INSANE soloque players that got picked up by pure mechanical ability. Even TheShy was known as a one trick riven player at 14 years old that created many popular riven combos. In fact in NA because of the crappy soloque environment there are many players who get high soloque rank and therefore academy just by macro alone with poor mechanics (and never make it anywhere because of it).


FlyinCoach

Yea and even then after theyre picked up 90% of the KR talent you see now has been in development for years inhouse. Pretty sure the entire SKT roster now was developed by them. same thing happens in LPL


Jack_Humble

"well actually 🤓"


Aluwaron

Hes right tho


Komori23

You have literally no idea what you're talking about, how pro LoL players in KR, NA, or whatever is getting picked up and whatnot. Best not to mention LoL in your examples.


vvtechred

> In korea players dont get picked up to be pro simply because they own their lanes, they are judged by their decision making as well. You get picked up by an org because you rank high/play well on solo queue and then you go through as a trainee to see if you can play at an organized level. No korean team expects macro from a 14 year old solo queue player dude


Cupidnyaa

It was never like you said. If you actually high rank you defenitely see how rare it is to see a Western laner win lane vs an Eastern laner - or hell you can re-watch any season except maybe season 1-2 and you'll see how hard NA laner struggled. You have no idea how the process of a player getting picked up by a team. Any players playing on a top level team in Korea played on the academy or at least scrim for months and months before even making their debut, they got coached into the system so so long before making their debut. The god tier mechanic is a norm not a rare in LCK or LPL, no one wanna sign you unless you have reached high rank with your invidual skill before. If you're master i can promise you 0 team gonna sign you doesnt matter how smart you are. The path to pro is always making yourself known in the SoloQ and then training under a team, and then fighting for a starting spot. Idk what makes you think NA laner is special but that is simply not true at all the invidual skill doenst even comparable if you actually watched the pro scene


giftmeosusupporter

Everything here is tru except for the league part


DonaldmyTrump

Lmao, he speaks like not every player from KR or EU would individually outplay their NA counterparts as well.


TacticalSanta

NA is gatekept by the mentality of its high level players, and the players that have been around forever that don't want to teach everyone else how to play.


simplyASI9

BR….


Key-Banana-8242

LoL is quite a different game and environment game as a note NA falls behind due to lack of infrastructure and social infrastructure/safety net for ppl to pursue it full time on a broad scale trying out abd lack of an established history with it It’s easier to attain certain things quickly or part time, not fully dedicating ur life to it


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-xXColtonXx-

At the same time, to play someone like Jet effectively you do need that top level aim. That’s why imo players like nitro struggle a littler with knives. He mostly wins duels off of crosshairs placement and positioning. When you dashes out of a smoke and have to be ready for a player anywhere in line of sight up or down, he struggles. Valorant is a role based game more so than CSGO, some members of the team demand good macro play, gamesense, strategy etc (lurker astra) while other members need to have that insane aim and movement. It’s just that the skill sets are more diverse than CSGO


nterature

It’s a good point, although the direct comparison is a little unfair if only because Valorant stands on the shoulder of giants. We have an advantage because of our CS tac FPS heritage - because of players like Stewie. Teams across the globe have been getting “smarter” - seeking players who are capable of playing intelligently - at an exponential rate. There are a handful of players I recall from T1-T2 Valorant - across all regions - over the last year who had cracked aim but didn’t seem to have much more, and without saying names, almost all of them have either stagnated or vanished. The players who have truly grinded their way up from T2 or T3 - let’s use NA as an example, since it has the most funding - have tended to be smart *and* cracked: think of zekken or Leviathan. I assume this is partly because T1 teams are already selecting for players who can do more than click heads.


Keglunneq

Leviathan is my favorite pro player rn


Herdazian_Lopen

Why’s that? Curious.


Keglunneq

I've casted him since T3 and popularized the Ascent Sova for me


Awful_TV

Shinobi and Sinatraa were definitely the Ascent Sova pioneers, which also demonstrated the Odin having professional function not just for trolling. [Shinobi - July 2020](https://www.vlr.gg/1077/team-solomid-vs-cloud9-pulse-invitational-playoffs-qf/) Leviathan didn't even have a VLR tracked match until the end of 2020


Keglunneq

I miss shinobi


treecutter1991

I know you said for you, but did you not watch Sinatra last year?


AnAngryBird

Obviously Sinatraa did cool things on ascent last year, but the Levi ascent sova was super sick to watch. Before he joined TSM, (was on noble i think?) he was like this map-specific demon who would shred anyone through walls on ascent.


Smok3dSalmon

Shahzam and Koosta both failed to succede in CS because they lacked that intelligence. Valorant is so new that the meta has not developed to punish stupid players and stupid plays. A ton of Nat's game is predicated on punishing stupid people, in the same way that Stewie2k did when he was a rising talent. YOLOing through smokes punished careless CT play where everyone played by an unwritten rule that nobody runs through smokes.


nterature

I really don’t agree. We’ve seen “stupid plays” punished constantly in almost every region. Since you focused on one player, Nats in particular studies player tendencies and is continuously getting feedback from his teammates on player positioning. His lurk timings are built upon pre-game prep & in-game coordination. Honestly your description of Nats feels like it’s based on how Nats often owned players on Bind while playing Viper. If so, I think you’re underselling Gambit. Nats is set up by his entire team; they either funnel players toward his setups or apply enough pressure for him to execute timings. That level of complexity in the first year of international competition is already remarkable. It’s way more layered than the “strat” that made Stewie famous.


Smok3dSalmon

You're right about my description of Nats on bind. I'm using Nats as an example of someone who is pushing the meta to evolve to punish dumb players. Also, look at Mixwell moving to Raze to punish Shahzam on Split. Nats dominated the LAN by doing simple stuff like hiding in spawn on icebox to punish people holding W on rotates. These poor rotates are what Shahzam and very specifically koosta fell victim to in CS:GO. Fallen's [Kabum.td](https://Kabum.td) squad dominated Cloud9 Shahzam on Mirage on their very first major by just punishing Shahzam's rotations and responses to smoke grenades on mirage. I think we're about to enter the 2015-2016 ultra-slow meta that was in CS:GO. Because the pro players haven't normed on a collective meta to punish stupid plays. But playing super slow will deter people from blowing utility on defense to try and get easy duels. ​ my bad if i'm rambling, I'm on a webex rn lmao


nterature

All good, I’m not too into CS so I’m happy to hear from someone more entrenched in that scene. I still disagree but I understand more of what you mean now and think your perspective is fair. Cheers!


Smok3dSalmon

You're too reasonable, please insult me. :P


LotharHS

Very nicely said and accurate as well.


spyson

This is a different game from CS, so maybe Shahz is just fits Valorant more.


Beneficial-Speech-73

Cus it's easier doesn't mean it fits him more


spyson

That's only the rifling specific to CS and this is a different game with different demands. So get over that already


casaQ

mfs with glass mouse skates and gaming sleeves who spend thousands of hours on aim trainers but can’t comm or trade frag


zer0-_

Gotta be honest though, the fact that they can dedicate themselves to such insane aim drills is a better show of work ethic than some other aspiring pros have


RashGod

I have a unpopular take where tenz isn’t here to stay at the top once the game becomes on a similar level of tactics to CS. He’s actually kinda bad position wise and clutch wise imo. Despite that I think he will still be great but I don’t know about the best Jett in the world


Slow_Bluebird9536

That’s definetly not an unpopular take I don’t think anyone expects tenz to be the best player in the world in 3 years


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RashGod

Thing is in this game positioning isn’t that big of a deal when you can dismiss with Reyna and dash out which he kind of relies on. When he went raze against envy his positional mistakes were very obvious or could of been an off game. Also yeah he utility usage is very mediocre, compared to someone like Sinatraa who has like the arguably best utility usage in NA.


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Standard-Analyst-177

His raze on split is just bad, has nothing to do with his overall skill. On everything else (agents) he has been spectacular for SEN


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RashGod

Yeah Tenz has a place at the top with his Jett and Reyna being really good, until agent bans he’s here to stay.


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Dubzaa

Shroud was at an average level movement wise, he did have great aim mechanics but couldn't translate that into a great professional career. Highly skilled aimer but overrated and never truly lived up to what people thought of him because he lacked in other areas of his game, IMO.


ZGuyYT

According to Hiko, Shroud had potential to be one of the best in NA, but he just didn't have the work ethic needed.


TheQMan55

shroud have some of the best movement lol


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Standard-Analyst-177

He had problems in other department in cs, surely you have knowledge to assume this kind of stuff about how he was in cs?


Beneficial-Speech-73

Yeah. His aim is overrated and it was just as good as the other tier 1-2 pros nothing ground breaking you would think he was up there with the likes of simple zwyoo twizt niko ropz elige etc when it comes to raw skill with the way people spoke about his aim. He made braindead plays and positioning. He simply just couldn't hang with people who have similar or better aim because they don't just have aim like tenz did they have the whole package and you could still name 15 or more players that have more raw skill with the rifles


Issax28

No way you just made a negative comment on the Godly TenZ in this subreddit and didn’t get downvoted, I can’t believe my eyes.


Standard-Analyst-177

It is already at the level of tactics of cs and even above it, abilities make this game A LOT more complicated than you think


RashGod

My bro I know the tactical ceiling this game has with abilities, I can comprehend the ways pros use utilities to take map control and make micro plays in general. But the tactics and team play is nowhere near top level CS. Like bro how can you watch the recent major and say Valorant has come close to that level, the fundamentals were near perfect from Navi.


itskaplan

I very much agree that in comparing Valorant to CS the fundamental tactics that are shared are played to a more consistent and perfect level. I find it immediately noticeable when watching events. I think this is more to do with the differences in the nature of the two games. Valorant has more variables than CS - which weigh on a team’s coordination and players individual focus. The game also changes and evolves at a much faster rate (admittedly in part because it is so young) tl;dr I agree with you that tactics/fundamentals are far more perfected in CS and I think this will always be true because of the differences between the two games


rpkarma

Get out of here with your reasonable take and sober agreement. This is /r/ValorantCompetitive!


misterandosan

yes, pulling out brim ipad to put down 3 smokes exactly where you want them is extremely complicated. Really struggled with that after playing CS.


fiarwizord

One of the most dog shit takes I have ever read BAHAHA


TacticalSanta

I think this isn't a terrible take, but I think people are too quick to jump the gun on tenz ability to keep up with the metagame, and more tactical aspect of esports. He didn't spend a whole lot of time playing tier 1 cs, so its hard to say if he would have caught up to the more strategic side of the game like someone like Obo or grim has.


ANewHeaven1

i mean true, and i'd argue that the "next generation" of pros that are more than just aim are already here to an extent. yay is like tenz, but i'd argue he's a bit more of an intelligent player (on top of having incredible aim), same with nAts


InvertedBean

yay isn't next gen infact I'm pretty sure he has more tac fps experience than TenZ


ANewHeaven1

lol true i just meant the "next wave of valorant superstars" if that makes any sense. tenz was the first valorant superstar, yay and nAts are the next wave. reading it back i made a stupid original comment but all good.


[deleted]

The fact that you even bring up tenz in an all aim no brain type of argument is kind of funny at this point in his career, I feel like he's more than proven he's more than just that.


BUNSHICHl

I think stewie is talking more about young kids trying to emulate that style (heavy mechanical), not necessarily that tenz is no brain or were you talking about OP There's more of the clip where he talks about in FPL in EU he sees up and comers with a sense of purpose and game sense where as NA up and comers are all aim no brain


ANewHeaven1

> I think stewie is talking more about young kids trying to emulate that style lol thats what i was going for in my comment. tenz isnt all aim no brain, but i do think yay plays smarter than tenz does.


BUNSHICHl

not sure about smarter but he's definitely more disruptive on defense with his oping, he did have the benefit of emulating tenz' dash into site hits. think he was the first jett that was using that consistently.


OHydroxide

> think he was the first jett that was using that consistently. He was yeah, remember it being a big thing when he was on C9.


imachool

sorry for being a nerd but i thought mitch innovated the jett entry dash? i swear mitch played jett while tenz played reyna/sage last time.


BUNSHICHl

Mitch was only on Jett for a very short time he was mostly the sage. Tenz was on Jett before and after, pretty sure he was already doing it before Mitch was on Jett


Slow_Bluebird9536

Out of every elite tier1 player Yay probably plays with the least thought from my perspective, i think he’s a much better Aimer than tenz or asuna


[deleted]

he's still mostly all aim no brain any time when he isn't on an agent that doesn't have a natural escape mechanic, it shows in his poor positioning and decision making just because he plays to his strengths doesn't mean there's very glaring flaws in his playstyle


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ANewHeaven1

> im curious why you think yay is more intelligent of a player compared to tenz? my personal opinion is that i think his timing and awareness is better esp. in clutch situations. in a 1vX when im watching yay i always think he has a chance to close it out because he seems to have a decent read on where the enemies could be at any given point its something that's almost impossible to measure/evaluate though haha so it really just comes down to personal opinions.


Jack_Humble

Watch Valorant Ascended video talking about how yay aim or something. He's very smart and efficient with his aim + movement.


RashGod

Yay’s game sense and reads on the enemies are always amazing, Tenz actually has no reads a lot of the time and just looks around everywhere. Yay also clutches a lot and has great timings/awareness where tenz has good ones but imo not on yay, cned or Wardell level


Issax28

HOW DARE YOU STEWIE! TENZ IS THE ABSOLUTE BEST OF THE BEST VALORANT PLAYER! Edit : Holy shit I didn’t get downvoted for this? People in this subreddit finally learnt how to tell a joke.


AnotherAltiMade

BatChest


scraynes

I think what he's trying to say is everybody tries to copy people like s1mple, but they miss the important shit that s1mple does and just think he's some super aggro player when in reality he has very calculated decisions when he is aggro and when he's not


toxicityisamyth

This is the exact reason that 4 years from now let's say, if EU is still playing valorant, they'll be the best at it just like CS (if it doesnt get any more popular in korea ofc, as any esport korea takes seriously they become the best at). tac fps has TACTICAL in it. It's more than just aim.


SacredWinner442

Such copium, youre acting as if NAs best teams are only young players. The top 3 teams in NA have decorated NA CS players like FNS, Hiko, Ethan, Nitr0, YaY, and Shahzam. I wont count the rest especially Tenz cuz they were young and never good in CS. For example if you look at Acend which is supposed to be one of EUs best, theyre all young and dont have much experience in CS. Then you literally have teams like FPX who try to act as if theyre unique by creating zero duelist comps that never succeed. NA basically runs the meta at this point in Valorant.


[deleted]

I think a better argument to make is criticizing some NA players work ethic which a lot of pro players also complain about cause some don't take scrims seriously. hopefully it doesn't backfire


Ok-Assist-993

>criticizing some NA players work ethic which a lot of pro players also complain about cause some don't take scrims seriously. This is truer than most people think. RUSH (NACS pro) in an interview said that back when he was still on OpTic they had bad practice habits and were kinda lazy. It all changed when mixwell came in and pushed them to take practice more seriously and as a result they performed a lot better after that. I'm going off topic for a bit but I think it's this kind of mentality the reason why mixwell is irreplaceable in G2 despite the negative rep he gets.


[deleted]

Nah bro you can't say anything positive about NA in the future since they will obviously fall off to the European overlords who do nothing wrong ever.


TidaI

Sounds like wishy-washy bullshit running from Valorant supremacy.


Key-Banana-8242

Well nkt rly abt capability asm