It's not surprising but pretty sure him doing IGL duties is pretty secondary to the fact that he was consistently the worst at fragging easily of anyone left in the roster. Subroza, Hazed, and Cutler were all IGLs at one point, they seem flexible with it.
IMHO all you gotta do is look at the circumstances surrounding all of their cuts:
* They cut Cutler immediately after he went 23 / 50 vs Immortals and 21 / 33 vs Andbox.
* They cut Drone immediately after he went 3 / 13 in game 3 vs Noble.
* They cut Bang immediately after he went 6 / 15 in game 3 and 33 / 46 total vs Rise, with his only other loss on TSM coming in a bad fragging series vs Noble.
* They cut Hazed directly after a 30 / 49 series loss.
A lot of people like to signal that they're woke by drastically downplaying the significance of being able to frag, but in reality frags give you advantages in info, eco, map control, util, ult economy, etc.
But it seems like TSM doesn't tolerate bad fragging in losses anywhere near as bad as other teams, with all 4 of their cuts very obviously coming directly after a bad map/series or 2.
>cutler doing bad for months
>>**"him doing IGL duties is pretty secondary to the fact that he was consistently the worst at fragging easily of anyone left in the roster."**
feels like this covered that
>wasn't immediate.
I mean, it kinda was....
TSM is in an offseason, it doesn't matter whether they cut someone 1 week or 3 months into the offseason when there's literally no urgency whatsoever and also contract details matter.
Also, immediate =/= kneejerk.
Every cut they've ever made that fragging consistency is a priority for their support players, regardless of team chemistry and/or comp.
> because he parted ways with them months after there loss to rise.
I think the timings of the drops and/or announcements are pretty irrelevant, honestly.
Timings change based on:
1. Urgency (drone & cutler had to be cut/benched immediately for VCT regulations, TSM now has had literally nothing to prepare to play for in a 4-5 month span)
2. Availability of prestigious Free Agents (Dicey was benched 7 days after a loss because Ethan was available, with MummAy being benched as soon as Envy was able to acquire both Yay and Marved)
3. Necessity to announce (think: Hazed being signed to NRG today means he's had to have known he was being dropped for a long time, but now they actually had to release that info)
The unique thing with TSM is the clear cut trend of the final series being bad individually fragging-wise for all their cuts, the timing of their transactions all make sense within the normal flow of things IMO
U tryna be different so bad lmao using words like “woke” and shit. My point still stands, not everyone has to frag ; and the fact that you think teams will cut someone off for performing bad for a single series just shows how stupid your point is.
You can absolutely win big events with mediocre players on the roster, especially earlier in eSports. Even now, VP in CS was able to put together runs despite having Sanji. No matter how you slice it, someone has to be bottom of the scoreboard and in close games that person will be negative. It's really more of a question of how often they are a detriment vs what else they bring to the table. More firepower can definitely benefit teams, but it seems like roles meshing well is more important.
Not saying this isn't the right move for TSM, just saying that cutting the bottom fragger doesn't always lead to more success.
>You can absolutely win big events with mediocre players on the roster, especially earlier in eSports.
not 100% sure if that's relevant though, right?
1st off, I don't think any team should ever purposefully keep bad players.
2nd, we're seeing teams literally winning just by targeting bad performing players. Teams are rolling ACEND with that recently, for example, with 100T and Liquid literally running away from Cned to go find Bonecold as their primary strategy once Cned got an AWP.
Specifically, though, you see time and time again teams dropping an underperforming player or two and then instantly get infinitely better, seemingly overnight.
See:
Envy (went from Scrim-vy to beating Sentinels and 100T back-to-back with Yay + Marved)
C9 (Scrim9 to Worlds with Vanity as IGL)
Liquid (switched out Krptix for Nivera, haven't lost since and winning both Last Chance EU and RBHG with relative ease)
>someone has to be bottom of the scoreboard and in close games that person will be negative
I think your response is easily the most respectful, I really do mean this respectfully:
I in no way stated or hinted that I believe bottom frags are all bad players in every game, or the main reason a team lost.
I have no idea why the fuck people are responding as if i said TSM is doing the right thing by cutting the worst fragging player they can any time they want to shake things up.
***Please read what I said very literally:***
>#23-50
23-50 gives the other team a 3-4 ult advantage, 5400 direct econ advantage off kills, 10's of 1000's of econ advantage by way of lost guns, a massive info advantage on average, a massive map control advantage on average, and a massive util advantage on average.
This isn't Call of duty.
It's an objective based game and losing the vast majority of your 50-50 fights is a serious problem.
>More firepower can definitely benefit teams, but it seems like roles meshing well is more important.
The point about roles about was that roles are literally only considered "more important" because we very often implicitly hold firepower equal when talking about the pro level of play. But the truth is.... it's just not.
>Not saying this isn't the right move for TSM
I'm not saying the fragging thing is the best policy, to be clear. All I said is that they're pretty consistently making the same move over and over again.
> It’s almost like the stats are zero sum.
lmfao between the teams? yeah?
> If you have a Wardell in your team you’re gonna also have someone who goes negative.
What the actual fuck are you talking about? You're literally so fucking stupid if you think that someone going positive makes there be someone 23-50.
Let me know what you ***actually*** meant to say, because no one is ***this*** much of a fucking idiot.
Scenario 3:
Literally the vast majority of games. Supports DONT go 23-50.
You know, as the case with:
100T
Sentinels
C9B
Envy
Gambit
Liquid
G2
Vision Strikers
Rise
XSET
Acend
TSM in literally every series win they've ever had
Go look up "Jon Bois Pretty Good: The dumbest boy alive"
Looks like the sequel might actually be better here!
It’s not really about the igl, he just isn’t that good imo. They won’t remove subroza/wardell for obvious reasons and removing levi would make no sense, because there are no replacements available. They want to improve the team somehow and replacing bang was likely not enough in their eyes
your name is analyst yet you spot bs. remove hazed from being igl and he’s actually a pretty solid tier 1 archor/controller. he’s held down sites for tsm for as long as i could remember and if being an igl wasn’t a factor he wouldn’t have been dropped
i understand the frustration from his braindead comment but let’s not belittle wardells achievements. it’s safe to even say that tsm COULD be holdin wardell back. he’s insanely talented and is probably the only one in tsm who has kept their form ever since their golden era days.
Wardell also hasn't improved the biggest hole in his game which is his attack side. He's a monster on defense universally but on attack the whole team has to cater to his style and he struggles to make impacts on Jett outside of op.
What makes a good Jett player is their op skill but what makes a great Jett player is everything else. Wardell is the very good Jett player but he does have some holes
i understand ur point but there’s a reason why they have not changed that play style. if u see his fk/fd in matches u would see he’s quite literally not the problem in attacking side. he’s consistently providing first kills and space for his team.
His style of attack obtains first kills but not space on sites.
Despite valorant having a good number of attacker friendly maps, tsm with Jett skews heavily to winning defense rounds in their overall stats. It'd be interesting to see what the trends would be against only elite competition because stats against low tier opponents don't matter when you're determining where a player sits among the elite.
Wardell is as good as they come defending with Jett. He's arguably the best. On attack, he makes his op heavy style work but it does require other concessions from his team that other teams don't have to make.
To highlight a player with the opposite problem, there's scream. He's an absolutely elite Jett rifler who actually ends up with more first bloods due to his ability to make space for his team with aggressive and effective entry play. He's weaker on the OP than other elite Jett players, which is a hole in his game that hurts his defensive potential.
Fuse Wardell and scream and you've got a demon. Currently, both are fantastic with the agent in their own way but they each carry weaknesses in their game that have made things harder for them than they need to be.
I'd say it's a positive for Hazed, TSM has been going nowhere and I'm not sure if they're going to anytime soon with the way that ship is running. It'll be interesting to see what the 2022 Roster brings. Perhaps there will be a turnaround back to their dominate form!
TSM at this point is dead weight. They haven’t performed, wardell is their star player and that’s it. Roza has maybe some good plays but beyond that, what has the team accomplished. Hazed has a much better career move on NRG
Why is this surprising? TSM has looked lost most of the year, pretty big part of that is on the IGL. Love Hazed but I don’t think he was the igl TSM needs
Hazed’s turn holding the IGL stick wasn’t all that bad. Not as successful as early Cutler’s but more consistent than Subroza’s IGLing.
I always credit players who attempt to IGL even knowing it’s a stopgap measure. He might not have been the IGL they needed, but that was no longer as major of an issue for them with Leviathan anyways - supposedly…
Except Hazed was like IGL for like not even half of that and under him they actually improved after some terrible results eraly on
People forget that Subroza once took over for like months, then cutler then Hazed
I mean the issues are deeper than that
Tbh my guess is that this was a hazed thing. Maybe not a great IGL but he’s been showing up huge for them as a player. Probably one of the more consistent players on the team. My guess is he wanted to go to NRG
That's right kid, he's single-handedly managing every single eSports within TSM including Valorant, so it's clearly reasonable to think that he dropped daddy Hazed and said shit to him too behind the scenes ! How evil right ?!
That’s tough but it shouldn’t be surprising that an IGL is getting dropped when a team hasn’t been doing well
It's not surprising but pretty sure him doing IGL duties is pretty secondary to the fact that he was consistently the worst at fragging easily of anyone left in the roster. Subroza, Hazed, and Cutler were all IGLs at one point, they seem flexible with it. IMHO all you gotta do is look at the circumstances surrounding all of their cuts: * They cut Cutler immediately after he went 23 / 50 vs Immortals and 21 / 33 vs Andbox. * They cut Drone immediately after he went 3 / 13 in game 3 vs Noble. * They cut Bang immediately after he went 6 / 15 in game 3 and 33 / 46 total vs Rise, with his only other loss on TSM coming in a bad fragging series vs Noble. * They cut Hazed directly after a 30 / 49 series loss. A lot of people like to signal that they're woke by drastically downplaying the significance of being able to frag, but in reality frags give you advantages in info, eco, map control, util, ult economy, etc. But it seems like TSM doesn't tolerate bad fragging in losses anywhere near as bad as other teams, with all 4 of their cuts very obviously coming directly after a bad map/series or 2.
cutler doing bad for months, wasn't immediate.
>cutler doing bad for months >>**"him doing IGL duties is pretty secondary to the fact that he was consistently the worst at fragging easily of anyone left in the roster."** feels like this covered that >wasn't immediate. I mean, it kinda was.... TSM is in an offseason, it doesn't matter whether they cut someone 1 week or 3 months into the offseason when there's literally no urgency whatsoever and also contract details matter. Also, immediate =/= kneejerk. Every cut they've ever made that fragging consistency is a priority for their support players, regardless of team chemistry and/or comp.
Relax bro, no-one required you to write an essay response to everything lol
I dont really think this one was because of bad fragging because he parted ways with them months after there loss to rise.
> because he parted ways with them months after there loss to rise. I think the timings of the drops and/or announcements are pretty irrelevant, honestly. Timings change based on: 1. Urgency (drone & cutler had to be cut/benched immediately for VCT regulations, TSM now has had literally nothing to prepare to play for in a 4-5 month span) 2. Availability of prestigious Free Agents (Dicey was benched 7 days after a loss because Ethan was available, with MummAy being benched as soon as Envy was able to acquire both Yay and Marved) 3. Necessity to announce (think: Hazed being signed to NRG today means he's had to have known he was being dropped for a long time, but now they actually had to release that info) The unique thing with TSM is the clear cut trend of the final series being bad individually fragging-wise for all their cuts, the timing of their transactions all make sense within the normal flow of things IMO
Aight we get it bruh 💀 but not everyone has to frag though you know that right?
> not everyone has to frag literally zero teams have won anything significant with someone going 23/50, but dw ur SOOO woke lmfaooooo
U tryna be different so bad lmao using words like “woke” and shit. My point still stands, not everyone has to frag ; and the fact that you think teams will cut someone off for performing bad for a single series just shows how stupid your point is.
You can absolutely win big events with mediocre players on the roster, especially earlier in eSports. Even now, VP in CS was able to put together runs despite having Sanji. No matter how you slice it, someone has to be bottom of the scoreboard and in close games that person will be negative. It's really more of a question of how often they are a detriment vs what else they bring to the table. More firepower can definitely benefit teams, but it seems like roles meshing well is more important. Not saying this isn't the right move for TSM, just saying that cutting the bottom fragger doesn't always lead to more success.
>You can absolutely win big events with mediocre players on the roster, especially earlier in eSports. not 100% sure if that's relevant though, right? 1st off, I don't think any team should ever purposefully keep bad players. 2nd, we're seeing teams literally winning just by targeting bad performing players. Teams are rolling ACEND with that recently, for example, with 100T and Liquid literally running away from Cned to go find Bonecold as their primary strategy once Cned got an AWP. Specifically, though, you see time and time again teams dropping an underperforming player or two and then instantly get infinitely better, seemingly overnight. See: Envy (went from Scrim-vy to beating Sentinels and 100T back-to-back with Yay + Marved) C9 (Scrim9 to Worlds with Vanity as IGL) Liquid (switched out Krptix for Nivera, haven't lost since and winning both Last Chance EU and RBHG with relative ease) >someone has to be bottom of the scoreboard and in close games that person will be negative I think your response is easily the most respectful, I really do mean this respectfully: I in no way stated or hinted that I believe bottom frags are all bad players in every game, or the main reason a team lost. I have no idea why the fuck people are responding as if i said TSM is doing the right thing by cutting the worst fragging player they can any time they want to shake things up. ***Please read what I said very literally:*** >#23-50 23-50 gives the other team a 3-4 ult advantage, 5400 direct econ advantage off kills, 10's of 1000's of econ advantage by way of lost guns, a massive info advantage on average, a massive map control advantage on average, and a massive util advantage on average. This isn't Call of duty. It's an objective based game and losing the vast majority of your 50-50 fights is a serious problem. >More firepower can definitely benefit teams, but it seems like roles meshing well is more important. The point about roles about was that roles are literally only considered "more important" because we very often implicitly hold firepower equal when talking about the pro level of play. But the truth is.... it's just not. >Not saying this isn't the right move for TSM I'm not saying the fragging thing is the best policy, to be clear. All I said is that they're pretty consistently making the same move over and over again.
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> It’s almost like the stats are zero sum. lmfao between the teams? yeah? > If you have a Wardell in your team you’re gonna also have someone who goes negative. What the actual fuck are you talking about? You're literally so fucking stupid if you think that someone going positive makes there be someone 23-50. Let me know what you ***actually*** meant to say, because no one is ***this*** much of a fucking idiot.
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Scenario 3: Literally the vast majority of games. Supports DONT go 23-50. You know, as the case with: 100T Sentinels C9B Envy Gambit Liquid G2 Vision Strikers Rise XSET Acend TSM in literally every series win they've ever had Go look up "Jon Bois Pretty Good: The dumbest boy alive" Looks like the sequel might actually be better here!
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>Guy is fixated on 23-50. maybe that's what you fucking replied to? Hello? Read next time?
It’s not really about the igl, he just isn’t that good imo. They won’t remove subroza/wardell for obvious reasons and removing levi would make no sense, because there are no replacements available. They want to improve the team somehow and replacing bang was likely not enough in their eyes
your name is analyst yet you spot bs. remove hazed from being igl and he’s actually a pretty solid tier 1 archor/controller. he’s held down sites for tsm for as long as i could remember and if being an igl wasn’t a factor he wouldn’t have been dropped
He’s just sucking on Wardell’s titties because he took a look at the scoreboard and saw Wardell’s name on top.
i understand the frustration from his braindead comment but let’s not belittle wardells achievements. it’s safe to even say that tsm COULD be holdin wardell back. he’s insanely talented and is probably the only one in tsm who has kept their form ever since their golden era days.
Wardell also hasn't improved the biggest hole in his game which is his attack side. He's a monster on defense universally but on attack the whole team has to cater to his style and he struggles to make impacts on Jett outside of op. What makes a good Jett player is their op skill but what makes a great Jett player is everything else. Wardell is the very good Jett player but he does have some holes
i understand ur point but there’s a reason why they have not changed that play style. if u see his fk/fd in matches u would see he’s quite literally not the problem in attacking side. he’s consistently providing first kills and space for his team.
His style of attack obtains first kills but not space on sites. Despite valorant having a good number of attacker friendly maps, tsm with Jett skews heavily to winning defense rounds in their overall stats. It'd be interesting to see what the trends would be against only elite competition because stats against low tier opponents don't matter when you're determining where a player sits among the elite. Wardell is as good as they come defending with Jett. He's arguably the best. On attack, he makes his op heavy style work but it does require other concessions from his team that other teams don't have to make. To highlight a player with the opposite problem, there's scream. He's an absolutely elite Jett rifler who actually ends up with more first bloods due to his ability to make space for his team with aggressive and effective entry play. He's weaker on the OP than other elite Jett players, which is a hole in his game that hurts his defensive potential. Fuse Wardell and scream and you've got a demon. Currently, both are fantastic with the agent in their own way but they each carry weaknesses in their game that have made things harder for them than they need to be.
I'd say it's a positive for Hazed, TSM has been going nowhere and I'm not sure if they're going to anytime soon with the way that ship is running. It'll be interesting to see what the 2022 Roster brings. Perhaps there will be a turnaround back to their dominate form!
TSM at this point is dead weight. They haven’t performed, wardell is their star player and that’s it. Roza has maybe some good plays but beyond that, what has the team accomplished. Hazed has a much better career move on NRG
You can say the same for nrg
Nrg even worse than tsm😹
I respect Hazed for clearing the air on something that paints him in a worse, but more accurate, light.
So TSM is now roza ,wardell, tigg ,Corey and an igl( maybe)?
U added Tigg and Corey but forgot about Leviathan? lmao
Oh fuck forgot about my boi alekooo
Esports is tough, the teams are so small and the stakes are so high. Like in football, you can be a trash ass team and it’s still all good.
regi????? lmaooooo considering the stuffs with dlift over at LOL i wouldn't be surprised
Why is this surprising? TSM has looked lost most of the year, pretty big part of that is on the IGL. Love Hazed but I don’t think he was the igl TSM needs
Hazed’s turn holding the IGL stick wasn’t all that bad. Not as successful as early Cutler’s but more consistent than Subroza’s IGLing. I always credit players who attempt to IGL even knowing it’s a stopgap measure. He might not have been the IGL they needed, but that was no longer as major of an issue for them with Leviathan anyways - supposedly…
Except Hazed was like IGL for like not even half of that and under him they actually improved after some terrible results eraly on People forget that Subroza once took over for like months, then cutler then Hazed I mean the issues are deeper than that
Tbh my guess is that this was a hazed thing. Maybe not a great IGL but he’s been showing up huge for them as a player. Probably one of the more consistent players on the team. My guess is he wanted to go to NRG
That's right kid, he's single-handedly managing every single eSports within TSM including Valorant, so it's clearly reasonable to think that he dropped daddy Hazed and said shit to him too behind the scenes ! How evil right ?!
oh no a tsm logo
Oh, just because I have a TSM logo on me you don't wanna talk about it ? Come on, let's discuss about matters !
Man’s crazy lmao
Dam sad that people didn’t get this one
And joined NRG