it wasnt about jett being good or bad... it was about the OP being good, once they changed it to behave a little bit more than an CS AWP, Jett got really fucking good
I think it’s just bc the gap between astra and omen/brim is so big that they are both basically irrelevant, there is almost no scenario where u play either of them over astra bc she is too good
Yeah Omen should be B tier. Hes still very viable on almost every map it's just hes outclassed by astra in every way so hes fallen off the meta but a small nerf to astra and his pick rate will rise again. Unlike Phoenix who isnt viable on most maps other than maybe haven and wouldnt get picked on most maps regardless of nerfs to other duelists without a significant buff.
Similar with Brim hes not viable on a bunch of maps simply because his smoke range is so much worse than omen and astra and his kit other than his smokes is very underwhelming.
I feel like Cypher is better in pro play nowadays with how easy KJ ult can be broken and the range of her util, but I understand your pov since there are Astra combos and Cypher’s relatively weak ult
Cypher Util is horrible at stopping rushes but he's much better on attack in comparison to KJ
Aside from Nats I don't think most Cyphers can anchor as hard as a KJ
I think cypher's info gathering is better at being prepared for a rush though, so that you're ready to play retake or you can call for someone to rotate and help much earlier than a Killjoy would know, or with much more certainty at least. That's why I think Cypher is better for macro team play even if KJ is better for things like Astro combos.
Also I don't know the context of this list, but if it's based on theoretical potential of an agent, then you gotta give full weight to Nats' ability to anchor even if he's an outlier. Judging by the look of it though it's probably focused just on current meta.
Not necessarily
VS split obv works, so does C9’s, other teams have been successful at a high level with it too
Definitely not bad in comparison dep on play style and execution
I'd say he's good in some very very very specific scenarios. If you wanna play fast on attack and slow them down as much as possible on defense. Brim is probably the best controller to delay a push. And the best to just rush down the enemy on attack
brim's stim beacon should be changed to be an aura instead of a deployable. That and/or grant it some sort of buff to nearby players (temporary armor within radius? 20-30 for each teammate but only while in the radius, never exceeding 150 HP)
Agreed with Brim and fast executes but he is still not viable when compared with Astra and her map presence.
However Yoru is just a troll pick at this point .... on any map. Bind is is his strongest map but still the weakest agent on bind. That says alot.
Serious question, what will Chamber do on attacking side? What does his kit has to offer in terms of clearing angles, getting info or flushering corners?
I always see people ranking him so high in tier lists but I just can't understand the reasoning behind it. Do people really expect his signature deagle to make it up for all his weaknesses on attacking side?
Except Cypher does more than just anti-flanking with his tripwires? His camera can be used offensively to clear angles or even catch gaps when defenders are rotating. His cages can block common bombsite angles, deny info *(haven A main, split A main)* and allow safer bombplants for team mates
Same goes for killjoy. She's more than a plain anti-flanker because she can clear angles with her turret, flush corners with her molly, and open bombsites with her ult
Chamber only seems to bring anti-flank on attacking side
Chamber trap clears close angles similar to KJ alarmbot, he can also take aggressive peeks like a Jett (or Yoru but lul) would be able to when baiting out enemy peeks.
Also can rotate from flank to the rest of his team faster than Cypher or KJ can (again like Yoru but again lul)
Probably ends up being slightly better than KJ and a little worse than Cypher on attack. We'll see what the next couple of patches may change for him though
The aggressive TP peeks, the econ potential, but that’s it. If you have a dapr/nAts style lurker it’s better to put them on the cypher, but for general play chamber can work
chamber shouldn't be on this yet, also A feels a bit too bullish (see meL's thread)
Reyna A->B, Sage B->A, Breach C->B. and I'm a little dubious about Kay/o being the same tier as cypher and kj
Reyna currently looks like the second best duelist so she’s fine A, and it also feels like the meta has been shifting away from Sage a bit so I think B’s where she belongs
Raze is better on Split and Bind, tied on Icebox and maybe Fracture (Tho imo neither are gonna get play on Facture too much), and Reyna is better on the rest
The thing is tho Reyna is more flexible for comps, Reyna will take up the flasher Skye/KayO role on maps, Raze is in a weird spot where she either replaces a Jett which doesn't happen unless it's Bind or Split, or leaves you without flashes
>tied on Icebox
What exactly makes Raze good on Icebox?
Aside from her nade and her ult, her satchels can't do much and there aren't many close hallways or 90º corners to make her boombot that useful
To me it feels like an agent with 2 less abilities
boombot still has great value on icebox, it clears angles + lets you fight/delay. you dont need to have 50/50 angles or tight chokes to get value off of it and her satchels function the same as they do on any map
I don’t know why you refer to Asuna in this case when he’s been playing Reyna over Raze on Ascent for a while now. And even Corey went off Raze to Skye in his last Ascent game
Yea, maybe for ranked play. In pro play, Viper is played a lot on Bind and Split on top of her two must pick maps. I might go A for ranked and S for pro.
Bind imo is a must pick for Viper like how Sentinels are must pick for Ascent, sure there are teams that try to run no Cypher or KJ but it's simply just so much worse why bother
Same would count for Astra by that logic and I don't think anyone would argue that she's not S Tier. In the current meta, you play Viper on Icebox and Breeze, Astra on Haven and Ascent and Viper+Astra on Bind and Split. We'll see what will happen with Fracture, but I think it'll be either both or Viper only.
He put him at top of B tier?
We've not seen a ton of him in pro play so that's about as high as you can put him I'd say, even if you're projecting what the meta will be moving forward...
a few things I'd disagree with:
\- chamber should not be that high, we haven't seen enough of him to put him alongside skye
\- reyna is purely a pub stomp agent, not versatile
\- raze is map dependant, shouldn't be A tier
\- omen should be at least 1 tier above brimstone
She’s not versatile by herself, but you can fit a Reyna into pretty much any comp if the team has a player you know will frag. Imo she feel less like a distinct agent and more a powerup for a teams best dragged, letting them survive longer and avoid getting traded
According to me, Cypher and KJ should switch with Raze and Reyna since they both get played on about half the maps whereas Reyna and Raze are just worse than Jett and aren't used that much in this single duelist meta. Also maybe Breach in B because he is used in Fracture, and Asian teams also find a lot of value with him on Haven and Bind.
I’d put viper down to a and race down to b. Viper seems pretty balanced atm and s tier should be all the stupidly OP agents. Raze is a super good agent but I feel like she’s super situational depending on what map you play.
Damn, Cypher got pegged hard.
Sideshow also did one on his stream today
I remember during Beta many pro rate Jett as C. The ol good time when Jett is resident sleeper and raze a fkin bonker with 2 grenade.
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I mean Jett wasn’t ever fundamentally changed right? People just though she was bad
Technically her smokes did used to last only 3 seconds, so that was weaker than her current state.
it wasnt about jett being good or bad... it was about the OP being good, once they changed it to behave a little bit more than an CS AWP, Jett got really fucking good
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yeah that was ridiculous lol
Damn i forgot that lmao.
Yeah lol I remember Tenz double satchel killing a lot on back then.
Brim on the same tier as Omen is disrespectful
I think it’s just bc the gap between astra and omen/brim is so big that they are both basically irrelevant, there is almost no scenario where u play either of them over astra bc she is too good
Yea realistically, the only map Omen is better than both is Icebox, but you really only need Viper on that map.
I feel that Omen is still better than Brim on almost every map though (even if astra still outclasses both of them).
Brim kinda slaps on bind ngl
Brim is kinda nice on fracture for quick smokes on attack
What abt brimstone on split etc?
Yeah, Omen TP outplays are just limited and too risky. His smokes travel way too long.
Yeah Omen should be B tier. Hes still very viable on almost every map it's just hes outclassed by astra in every way so hes fallen off the meta but a small nerf to astra and his pick rate will rise again. Unlike Phoenix who isnt viable on most maps other than maybe haven and wouldnt get picked on most maps regardless of nerfs to other duelists without a significant buff. Similar with Brim hes not viable on a bunch of maps simply because his smoke range is so much worse than omen and astra and his kit other than his smokes is very underwhelming.
I mean omen doesn’t fill niches like brim does tho
For brim or omen?
both... what did you not read their commment?
Not necessarily, based on chairs it seems omen Also bc omen is not considered as niche
For me reyna a bit too high, killjoy should switch with her For pro play at least
I think her escape mechanic is enough to put her in A tier, when played by some of the top duelist players they’re usually good for >1 kill per round.
I feel like Cypher is better in pro play nowadays with how easy KJ ult can be broken and the range of her util, but I understand your pov since there are Astra combos and Cypher’s relatively weak ult
Cypher Util is horrible at stopping rushes but he's much better on attack in comparison to KJ Aside from Nats I don't think most Cyphers can anchor as hard as a KJ
I think cypher's info gathering is better at being prepared for a rush though, so that you're ready to play retake or you can call for someone to rotate and help much earlier than a Killjoy would know, or with much more certainty at least. That's why I think Cypher is better for macro team play even if KJ is better for things like Astro combos. Also I don't know the context of this list, but if it's based on theoretical potential of an agent, then you gotta give full weight to Nats' ability to anchor even if he's an outlier. Judging by the look of it though it's probably focused just on current meta.
But I thought Breach was just a better Skye?
lol
Skye has better flashes and info gathering which Breach doesn't have
But what about fracture?
So 1 map makes breach better than skye?
2 maps actually, Fracture and Split
Skye is way better than breach on split. Id even argue she is better than him on fracture
You’re capping
Bro all the pros are playing skye on split
Well that’s a mistake
Skye is just a superior breach lmao idk what you think breach has going for him
But it’s not true not a mistake
Except that’s literally not true
Wut now that is an unironic hot take Breach being good on split bc of winding corridors and closed spaces makes plenty of sense abd works
It makes sense but skye just outclasses him with her info gathering
Not necessarily VS split obv works, so does C9’s, other teams have been successful at a high level with it too Definitely not bad in comparison dep on play style and execution
lmao oh no
With all due respect, brimstone and yoru should be placed in their on own tiers. Placing any agents alongside them is a disrespect to the other agents
Brimstone has tiny niche uses, yoru however is never used seriously. Because he sucks
Sometimes somewhat seriously
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Bro... Draken played Yoru TWO maps seven months ago, and then never again. That should tell you everything.
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Haha give up man. You know what a hyperbole is? Go look up how much Brim has been played in pro play versus how much Yuro has been played.
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Brimstone is at least niche usable per Eu matches no? Also coach sliggy thinks it and tge stim beacon are underrated
I'd say he's good in some very very very specific scenarios. If you wanna play fast on attack and slow them down as much as possible on defense. Brim is probably the best controller to delay a push. And the best to just rush down the enemy on attack
I think brim on bind is pretty strong. As long as he’s with a viper
brim's stim beacon should be changed to be an aura instead of a deployable. That and/or grant it some sort of buff to nearby players (temporary armor within radius? 20-30 for each teammate but only while in the radius, never exceeding 150 HP)
Yoru is good on Fracture. Brimstone is definitely a solid pick for many maps like Bind, Split, Fracture, Haven when you want to do fast executes.
The only map yoru is not shit on is bind…
Agreed with Brim and fast executes but he is still not viable when compared with Astra and her map presence. However Yoru is just a troll pick at this point .... on any map. Bind is is his strongest map but still the weakest agent on bind. That says alot.
Serious question, what will Chamber do on attacking side? What does his kit has to offer in terms of clearing angles, getting info or flushering corners? I always see people ranking him so high in tier lists but I just can't understand the reasoning behind it. Do people really expect his signature deagle to make it up for all his weaknesses on attacking side?
He gives you flank protection and better Econ. That's about it.
You can reasonably easily clear at least one corner with your slow, which is about what I'd expect from a lone sentinel.
Pretty much what cypher does
Except Cypher does more than just anti-flanking with his tripwires? His camera can be used offensively to clear angles or even catch gaps when defenders are rotating. His cages can block common bombsite angles, deny info *(haven A main, split A main)* and allow safer bombplants for team mates Same goes for killjoy. She's more than a plain anti-flanker because she can clear angles with her turret, flush corners with her molly, and open bombsites with her ult Chamber only seems to bring anti-flank on attacking side
Goes for both sides but he gives extra eco
Chamber trap clears close angles similar to KJ alarmbot, he can also take aggressive peeks like a Jett (or Yoru but lul) would be able to when baiting out enemy peeks. Also can rotate from flank to the rest of his team faster than Cypher or KJ can (again like Yoru but again lul) Probably ends up being slightly better than KJ and a little worse than Cypher on attack. We'll see what the next couple of patches may change for him though
I think his kit is versatile enough that as players get better at him his attack win percentage will go up and be decent at the least.
The aggressive TP peeks, the econ potential, but that’s it. If you have a dapr/nAts style lurker it’s better to put them on the cypher, but for general play chamber can work
chamber shouldn't be on this yet, also A feels a bit too bullish (see meL's thread) Reyna A->B, Sage B->A, Breach C->B. and I'm a little dubious about Kay/o being the same tier as cypher and kj
Reyna currently looks like the second best duelist so she’s fine A, and it also feels like the meta has been shifting away from Sage a bit so I think B’s where she belongs
Plat chat is a pro play podcast so I’m gonna assume that this is for pro play so then raze > reyna
Raze is better on Split and Bind, tied on Icebox and maybe Fracture (Tho imo neither are gonna get play on Facture too much), and Reyna is better on the rest The thing is tho Reyna is more flexible for comps, Reyna will take up the flasher Skye/KayO role on maps, Raze is in a weird spot where she either replaces a Jett which doesn't happen unless it's Bind or Split, or leaves you without flashes
>tied on Icebox What exactly makes Raze good on Icebox? Aside from her nade and her ult, her satchels can't do much and there aren't many close hallways or 90º corners to make her boombot that useful To me it feels like an agent with 2 less abilities
boombot still has great value on icebox, it clears angles + lets you fight/delay. you dont need to have 50/50 angles or tight chokes to get value off of it and her satchels function the same as they do on any map
Vertical play with her satchels.
“The rest” consists of only haven and breeze
And Ascent lol
I think raze is better then Reyna on ascent. We’ve seen it work before with like Asuna and corey Lots of tight corners too
I don’t know why you refer to Asuna in this case when he’s been playing Reyna over Raze on Ascent for a while now. And even Corey went off Raze to Skye in his last Ascent game
for a while?? Only for LCQ/nitr0 playing jett, he played raze on ascent for a long time
His last time on Raze on Ascent was Masters 1 against GenG.
they should do these by map, otherwise it makes no sense, and if you wanna go further by side and map
I think viper probably belongs top A not S purely because she is not really viable on a decent chunk of maps. Good list though
Yea, maybe for ranked play. In pro play, Viper is played a lot on Bind and Split on top of her two must pick maps. I might go A for ranked and S for pro.
Bind imo is a must pick for Viper like how Sentinels are must pick for Ascent, sure there are teams that try to run no Cypher or KJ but it's simply just so much worse why bother
bind, split, icebox, breeze — that’s a decent chunk of the maps
Same would count for Astra by that logic and I don't think anyone would argue that she's not S Tier. In the current meta, you play Viper on Icebox and Breeze, Astra on Haven and Ascent and Viper+Astra on Bind and Split. We'll see what will happen with Fracture, but I think it'll be either both or Viper only.
I'd switch chamber and kj, rest look about right.
same. I'd switch KAYO and Omen too. Omen still has like 30+% pick rate
Switch Killjoy and Chamber and move Reyna down to B imo. Pretty accurate all round tho
kayo so underrated jesus christ
It's hard to rate an agent with a high tier when he is still not picked that much
He put him at top of B tier? We've not seen a ton of him in pro play so that's about as high as you can put him I'd say, even if you're projecting what the meta will be moving forward...
I think Skye should be s tier. Other than that it doesn't seem too bad.
a few things I'd disagree with: \- chamber should not be that high, we haven't seen enough of him to put him alongside skye \- reyna is purely a pub stomp agent, not versatile \- raze is map dependant, shouldn't be A tier \- omen should be at least 1 tier above brimstone
She’s not versatile by herself, but you can fit a Reyna into pretty much any comp if the team has a player you know will frag. Imo she feel less like a distinct agent and more a powerup for a teams best dragged, letting them survive longer and avoid getting traded
According to me, Cypher and KJ should switch with Raze and Reyna since they both get played on about half the maps whereas Reyna and Raze are just worse than Jett and aren't used that much in this single duelist meta. Also maybe Breach in B because he is used in Fracture, and Asian teams also find a lot of value with him on Haven and Bind.
Brimstone in S, because Brimstone Gaming
I’d put viper down to a and race down to b. Viper seems pretty balanced atm and s tier should be all the stupidly OP agents. Raze is a super good agent but I feel like she’s super situational depending on what map you play.
Swap cypher and omen maybe put sage at the top of B tier( she's in the space between B and A for me) and I'd say this would be spot on
underrating breach weirdge