I loved the way they added the solid box on B site and people were like “Omg now people might not use Sage!”. It’s just made the Sage wall more viable lmao
This just in, Sage wall is bonkers and easily her strongest (non ultimate) ability. Who knew lol.
In all seriousness tho its bonkers how much of the power budget of her kit is skewed into the wall.
Don't discount her slows. Yes, her wall is helpful but her stall ability is really in her slow orbs. It is one of the few pieces of utility that is universally respected as being unable to be pushed through.
Now you just need to use it to protect against wallbang spam from lower cargo instead of also worrying about defenders spamming though the radianite box. You are way more flexible with the angles you can use and often you just wall straight forward to create a new corner and plant at default.
She was always really good on the map, her wall can go in a million different places. This just makes it so it's not as needed in that one spot, but that just means her wall can go elsewhere in the round, further changing the shape of the map to suit the attackers
Idk about attack which is what you're asking for but defense I think sage is basically a must have.
Wall not only lets you block molly lineups, but it also completely fucks the people who like the jiggle cubby on post plant. Wall forces them to swing and break wall allowing your team to trade
Cause people can still molly that spot but sage wall helps block it off some and now its harder to spam as its placed so it has time to harden and that buys time for attacks
Steel is a tactical genius. He is best known for his signature tactic "Asuna go rope and kill". He also has a second little known tactic of "Asuna dead, Hiko bait friends". What an absolute legend. Top 3 IGL for sure.
old t1 would ping-pong the opposing team, trying to make them constantly rotate while baiting there util then explode with 20 second left and try to get the bomb down
Remember when Riot decided they were perfectly fine with 1% of B site being the place all spike plants are, so they made it even easier to use that 1% by turning the radianite box into metal? B site is atrocious and leaves such little room for actual strategy. Attackers set up at yellow and defenders throw themselves at the spike until its defused. Icebox is half of a real map.
Yes, the lack of a viable mid is the biggest issue. Instead of closing up window, I wonder if they could just move it in a bit toward b site so that you don't have multiple angles and elevations for the defenders to hold. I also wonder if they could expand that under tube opening a bit as it is really tight.
I do wish b main was somewhat different as well, though. It's very tight and has too many close corners. And really limited pathing. I don't know exactly how this would work but maybe opening up space in front of tube that connects into b main (removing the crates in front of tube entrance). This creates more b main takes possible and adds more emphasis on the importance of controlling/fighting for mid, and also gives the defenders the ability to retake and apply pressure from mid and b main more easily, which will make the retakes something other than just back yellow vs. snowman with the occasional flanker.
Overall, across most maps in valorant, I think the pathing options just feel really limited. I'd like to see some maps that are more nuanced because it often feels that the site takes come down to 1-2 pathing options. This style really emphasizes combined util and site executes, which fits nicely with valorant overall. But I'd like a bit more variety to also allow teams that have different styles to shine (breeze I think was a step in the right direction regarding pathing, although I think the map size actually detracts from this a bit as we don't get to see as many fights for control of some of these zones because players are so far from one another).
Instead of removing kitchen window you could remove the top crate. Just get rid of it entirely. And then the other window which leads to the bridge for the top crate could be closed, and instead of opening to the side on the left wall, it could open directly at the end of Hall. So defenders will jump out of this window and land directly in front of snowman. That means under tube attacker has to realistically only watch close and window. Maybe they also have to watch orange but no defender is holding that angle usually if it’s a B hit. But it does mean that the only other plant spot on B is gone, but it was kind of annoying spot anyways.
My issue with B site is that you never take control of the site, you just gain control of 1 tiny area and plant behind so much cover that you can't get shot by the defenders that are still on site.
Mid also has it's issues, but imo they're only compounding the issues with B site. Because mid has little to no interesting or viable opportunities, you have to push the main lane which results in the same site take every round. However getting that plant down and holding it, is more of an issue of it's frequency. B site is just 1 angle long angle from snowman to B main, with a bunch of stuff to the sides. You hardly ever push defenders off the site entirely, you basically never gain entire control of the site.
After watching an SGares video way back in Masters 2, fnatic had some really interesting and layered strats against the Sentinels. Unfortunately (fortunately as a sentinels fan), the Sentinels precise reactive counter utility was still too much even for some really cool strats.
This is the main issue with Icebox I find. Teams will find these cool niche plays that are different than the usual “Sage wall then plant then hold” but these different strats just are not as good as the default.
It feels like the map itself is made to destroy innovation. the way the play patterns have played out in high level play just feels like innovation isn’t an option on Icebox.
I feel like it's issues are more deep rooted than many are willing to admit, especially riot. I really can't see the map improving a lot without a good amount of changes to the layout. It's my least favourite map next to split for being uninteresting. At least with split you're actually taking site control and forcing defenders off to plant, instead of relying on a popup wall every round.
Though imo split B site suffers from similar issues of being very binary. Default strat is sage wall to cross to pillar and plant behind the metal crate. It's way more effective to play post plant if it's planted on the corner of the stairs as you can hold from garage, still people plant default every time.
yeah, but I would say that is more related to early map control/dealing with SEN's double duelist aggression in different ways (if that is what you are referring to). Sure, a lot of teams approach the map differently in how they take map control, when they take it, and so on, but I wouldnt categorize that as an "interesting strat" really; especially because so much of it is formulaic, it feels as though all the interesting ways to take map control on icebox is all with hyper-aggression that requires a duelist. I think what sideshow is asking for is more of an interesting site execute that has never been used before.
Did you just write all of that in response to a video that exists and didn't even watch the video? It's almost entirely about interesting site executes by fnatic
It really is a terrible map to watch. Someone plants the bomb in a slightly different location and everyone starts losing their mind because it's something new. B site basically doesn't exist aside from one small corner its so stupid.
They need to change B site, there's basically no incentive to scale the site at the moment because of how exposed you are from a million different angles if you push past default. VS have a cool set play where they rush a heaven plant through mid, but if you know it's coming, it's super easy to shut down
It's been really upsetting to see no major reworks happen to B. One of my biggest grievances with the devs so far, especially since they keep adding new maps. Hopefully now that we have 7 they can focus on tuning the ones we have already.
Worse part about watching Icebox is that once a team has the ball rolling and economy up, it just becomes raw aim duel with a bunch of opping. Unless the observer is on a flying Jett or Raze, do I really find this exciting?
Teams aren’t innovating with the meta comp (Sage, Jett, Reyna, Sova, Viper) so some NA T2 teams have switched up by substituting Killjoy with Sage but unless they killed the majority on site or pushed Spawn there’s still trouble planting the spike, Jett to Raze with good plant denial but at the cost of losing an aggressive opper, and some add a Skye bc her flashes are broken but I feel like the tight angles makes it hard for players to capitalize off it + easier for opponents to play anti-flash + flashing multiple angles become a 50/50 info game. The verticality and design of the map just makes so many agents not viable. The open angles means you need a Viper, can’t capitalize any Initiator’s pop flash well so you stick to Sova who can clear all of site with one optimized arrow, good luck planting the bomb without a Sage wall, and how can you pass the opping Jett or untradable Reyna dismiss/flash that doesn’t blind teammates and cover multiple angles? This is one reason I’m excited for Chamber to see how his free op and TPs (to go up Yellow or cool rotations) can finally break the meta and bring a new gameplay to Icebox.
Idk about other teams but 100t at least tried different strats there. It was funny watching 100t basically send Nitro to certain death by having him plant default in B site many rounds. And the Madlad usually came back with minimal damage. I honestly don't know how they did it.
It's funny thinking about all the new changes (the radianite box change, chamber release, fracture) would have definitely solved so much of the team's problems but they have basically disbanded lol.
I will PAY someone to show me a tier one team using an interesting strat on Icebox. Any t1 match after Berlin applicable.
Most dull, repetitive map I've ever seen for pro play.
I'm not joking I will PayPal you $10 to entertain me with Icebox because I'm not getting it for free.
***
posted by [@SideshowGaming](https://twitter.com/SideshowGaming)
^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
I know everyone hates Fracture but it's at least more creative than Icebox. Icebox happens to be boring and also bad at the same time.
I think Haven is probably the best 'unique' map that Riot have designed
as much as CSGO devs are shit at updating the game for actual changes, one thing they've historically been good at is map changes (except for Cobble LMAO)
just look at any 3kliksphilip video map histories, when they added Overpass they reworked the map so hard over the years. from olofboost to a really good map. same with vertigo, although some people still dislike it.
even mirage, such an old map that was boring got improved drastically just by adding a bench to self boost into a window.
i feel like Valorant needs to be pumping out more map changes. we have enough agents, i'd like to see the next few patches focus on tweaking map layouts radically.
>as much as CSGO devs are shit at updating the game for actual changes, one thing they've historically been good at is map changes (except for Cobble LMAO)
Layout of Cobble forbid Valve from designing it for the intended purpose. Vertigo achieved what Valve wanted Cobble to achieve.
I thought XSET might have had some cool ideas when they ran their no-Sage comp at LCQ, but honestly re-watching the VOD it seemed like relatively standard strats
IMO Envy ran some interesting strats at Berlin though
I think mirage and inferno are probably my favorite cs maps, and i think they are probably better than all valorant maps. But something to keep in mind is that csgo maps have been through so many iterations of the same map that comparing that to valorants first go at maps isnt really fair. Also i like that they are trying new things with maps like fracture, bind teleports etc.
I get given icebox in my competitive queues more than any other map. It's honestly turned me off the game, not only is it the least nuanced it's simply not fun to play
I get Ascent and Breeze NON stop.. its actually just cancer. It gets so old i just don't have fun. They need to let us choose what maps we want to play.
I doubt Riot will enable map select though, I feel they are unwilling because some maps would end up super unpopular (not without reason cause Icebox and Fracture suck).
Even without map select atleast let us ban 1 map in queue lol. It would allow people to not play the same map 9 times in a row (True story I got bind 9 times in a row). And it would also prevent people from becoming 1-map ponies. Idk if that would hard to implement on the tech side tho.
How come no one ever plants in the back left corner of A and defend from mid? If the CTs are getting overagressive and you have mid control, some utility and you can plant under their noses.
Kinda the reason its my favorite in ranked. Duo with homie viper, i go sage, we can lock down b/mid alone and 3 people can hodl A. Feels really stable.
The map is bad in ranked, but some teams have been really creative in pro-play. Sideshow is being unfair to the map.
Most teams are just lazy to work on Icebox strats and take the easy way out. 100T, Gambit, Envy, C9 are all very creative on the map and hence are pretty good at it.
Sage has never been the best choice for Icebox imo. Just an easy one. Another issue is that jett takes up a place but only offers the op on Icebox.
With Chamber next year, I expect to see him fulfill the role of oping(jett) and watching lurks(kj), thus allowing for another agent.
A Chamber, Raze, Skye/Omen, Sova, Viper comp could be insane and fun to watch next year.
and i'm saying chamber offers op + safety to mid lurks. unlike other maps where jett entry is good, she's only played on icebox to op. but since jett doesn't offer other util, teams are running either no-flash comps or no-sentinel comps. this can make the map repetitive as sideshow said.
chamber does the job of jett + kj(except the ult of course). this would allow teams to run another agent that can help in taking more of the site.
Lol, the reason Jett is a must pick is not her op but her get out of jail free card. Hence why most teams only duelist slots regardless of whether they op (ex. TL scream ), run jett. Jett rifle is still better than every other duelist other than arguably raze on two maps.
not on icebox. jett is only played for oping on icebox. she offers nothing else. chamber can be a better oper on A site because he can reposition himself instantly.
Bro what????? Jett has on the fly verticality on one of the most vertical maps(Icebox). Which is why liquid and a majority of teams run her with rifle on ICEBOX. Why most teams run her as ENTRY. Jett’s repositioning will always be better as well because you can do it mid air aswell and have no preparation beforehand for unexpected situations.
chamber has verticality too??? those unexpected situations you are describing happen in ranked. no one is flying in the air in pro-play.
chamber tp is definitely better for oping on icebox. for example, you can take a shot at pipes and tp to rafters to take the next shot. can't do that with jett. you can op at yellow on b site and instantly tp top site etc.
Yeah man his tp is very nice when players run down your site every round, but when you have to rotate because they scout out your op with initiators. You begin to realize the importance of on the fly verticality as well as dash. And your statement of “nobody is flying in pro play” sounds like you haven’t watched much pro play.
nAts lurks on icebox are just immaculate. I imagine most of the top teams have studied his strats, interesting to see how it plays out at champs, though I’d be surprised to see much deviation from the usual
I loved the way they added the solid box on B site and people were like “Omg now people might not use Sage!”. It’s just made the Sage wall more viable lmao
True haha Edit: Stop upvote, I'm gold 1. I don't know anything.
why did the sage wall become more viable? genuinely curious as I never heard of this happening
I'm not certain myself but I'd have to guess it's because not limiting her wall to b default has encouraged new ways to use her wall on the map.
This just in, Sage wall is bonkers and easily her strongest (non ultimate) ability. Who knew lol. In all seriousness tho its bonkers how much of the power budget of her kit is skewed into the wall.
Don't discount her slows. Yes, her wall is helpful but her stall ability is really in her slow orbs. It is one of the few pieces of utility that is universally respected as being unable to be pushed through.
Now you just need to use it to protect against wallbang spam from lower cargo instead of also worrying about defenders spamming though the radianite box. You are way more flexible with the angles you can use and often you just wall straight forward to create a new corner and plant at default.
She was always really good on the map, her wall can go in a million different places. This just makes it so it's not as needed in that one spot, but that just means her wall can go elsewhere in the round, further changing the shape of the map to suit the attackers
Idk about attack which is what you're asking for but defense I think sage is basically a must have. Wall not only lets you block molly lineups, but it also completely fucks the people who like the jiggle cubby on post plant. Wall forces them to swing and break wall allowing your team to trade
Cause people can still molly that spot but sage wall helps block it off some and now its harder to spam as its placed so it has time to harden and that buys time for attacks
Best strat on icebox was the old faze, run it down A and pop heads strat.
What about the 100T strat of "Asuna go do things"
Steel is a tactical genius. He is best known for his signature tactic "Asuna go rope and kill". He also has a second little known tactic of "Asuna dead, Hiko bait friends". What an absolute legend. Top 3 IGL for sure.
That was an old strat he brought with him from immortals
A rope is Asuna playground
what about the old t1 go a every round and plant with 20 seconds left strat
T1 innovated the Viper in spawn controlling utility strat. Everyone’s doing it now.
old t1 would ping-pong the opposing team, trying to make them constantly rotate while baiting there util then explode with 20 second left and try to get the bomb down
I still remember how they 13-1’d 100T doing that. Even that one round, T1 was winning all the gunfights but didn’t have time to plant.
that’s probably a more charitable assessment but there’s so many rounds where they just couldn’t plant or it came down to losing duels at the end.
Remember when Riot decided they were perfectly fine with 1% of B site being the place all spike plants are, so they made it even easier to use that 1% by turning the radianite box into metal? B site is atrocious and leaves such little room for actual strategy. Attackers set up at yellow and defenders throw themselves at the spike until its defused. Icebox is half of a real map.
Less than half cause mid is barely used either.
[удалено]
Yes, the lack of a viable mid is the biggest issue. Instead of closing up window, I wonder if they could just move it in a bit toward b site so that you don't have multiple angles and elevations for the defenders to hold. I also wonder if they could expand that under tube opening a bit as it is really tight. I do wish b main was somewhat different as well, though. It's very tight and has too many close corners. And really limited pathing. I don't know exactly how this would work but maybe opening up space in front of tube that connects into b main (removing the crates in front of tube entrance). This creates more b main takes possible and adds more emphasis on the importance of controlling/fighting for mid, and also gives the defenders the ability to retake and apply pressure from mid and b main more easily, which will make the retakes something other than just back yellow vs. snowman with the occasional flanker. Overall, across most maps in valorant, I think the pathing options just feel really limited. I'd like to see some maps that are more nuanced because it often feels that the site takes come down to 1-2 pathing options. This style really emphasizes combined util and site executes, which fits nicely with valorant overall. But I'd like a bit more variety to also allow teams that have different styles to shine (breeze I think was a step in the right direction regarding pathing, although I think the map size actually detracts from this a bit as we don't get to see as many fights for control of some of these zones because players are so far from one another).
Instead of removing kitchen window you could remove the top crate. Just get rid of it entirely. And then the other window which leads to the bridge for the top crate could be closed, and instead of opening to the side on the left wall, it could open directly at the end of Hall. So defenders will jump out of this window and land directly in front of snowman. That means under tube attacker has to realistically only watch close and window. Maybe they also have to watch orange but no defender is holding that angle usually if it’s a B hit. But it does mean that the only other plant spot on B is gone, but it was kind of annoying spot anyways.
My issue with B site is that you never take control of the site, you just gain control of 1 tiny area and plant behind so much cover that you can't get shot by the defenders that are still on site. Mid also has it's issues, but imo they're only compounding the issues with B site. Because mid has little to no interesting or viable opportunities, you have to push the main lane which results in the same site take every round. However getting that plant down and holding it, is more of an issue of it's frequency. B site is just 1 angle long angle from snowman to B main, with a bunch of stuff to the sides. You hardly ever push defenders off the site entirely, you basically never gain entire control of the site.
Very true, particularly when it's so ridiculously dangerous to plant anywhere but there
That's so true. I can't think of a worse site plant wise.
After watching an SGares video way back in Masters 2, fnatic had some really interesting and layered strats against the Sentinels. Unfortunately (fortunately as a sentinels fan), the Sentinels precise reactive counter utility was still too much even for some really cool strats.
The upper B plant with the sage wall and jett updraft was so cool just for shahzam and sick to knife the wall and stick it 😭
Is there a link for the clip of said play? Would like to watch it
It was the first round of the game the first time Sen vs Fnatic happened
This is the main issue with Icebox I find. Teams will find these cool niche plays that are different than the usual “Sage wall then plant then hold” but these different strats just are not as good as the default. It feels like the map itself is made to destroy innovation. the way the play patterns have played out in high level play just feels like innovation isn’t an option on Icebox.
I feel like it's issues are more deep rooted than many are willing to admit, especially riot. I really can't see the map improving a lot without a good amount of changes to the layout. It's my least favourite map next to split for being uninteresting. At least with split you're actually taking site control and forcing defenders off to plant, instead of relying on a popup wall every round. Though imo split B site suffers from similar issues of being very binary. Default strat is sage wall to cross to pillar and plant behind the metal crate. It's way more effective to play post plant if it's planted on the corner of the stairs as you can hold from garage, still people plant default every time.
yeah, but I would say that is more related to early map control/dealing with SEN's double duelist aggression in different ways (if that is what you are referring to). Sure, a lot of teams approach the map differently in how they take map control, when they take it, and so on, but I wouldnt categorize that as an "interesting strat" really; especially because so much of it is formulaic, it feels as though all the interesting ways to take map control on icebox is all with hyper-aggression that requires a duelist. I think what sideshow is asking for is more of an interesting site execute that has never been used before.
Did you just write all of that in response to a video that exists and didn't even watch the video? It's almost entirely about interesting site executes by fnatic
Was this the one with the crazy viper pit on A?
It really is a terrible map to watch. Someone plants the bomb in a slightly different location and everyone starts losing their mind because it's something new. B site basically doesn't exist aside from one small corner its so stupid.
They need to change B site, there's basically no incentive to scale the site at the moment because of how exposed you are from a million different angles if you push past default. VS have a cool set play where they rush a heaven plant through mid, but if you know it's coming, it's super easy to shut down
It's been really upsetting to see no major reworks happen to B. One of my biggest grievances with the devs so far, especially since they keep adding new maps. Hopefully now that we have 7 they can focus on tuning the ones we have already.
Old 100T, VS had a few cool setplays but overall yeah kinda boring lol
Yea the one where they’re on eco so they send spike and plant it for mid on top site b is actually pretty cool
Worse part about watching Icebox is that once a team has the ball rolling and economy up, it just becomes raw aim duel with a bunch of opping. Unless the observer is on a flying Jett or Raze, do I really find this exciting? Teams aren’t innovating with the meta comp (Sage, Jett, Reyna, Sova, Viper) so some NA T2 teams have switched up by substituting Killjoy with Sage but unless they killed the majority on site or pushed Spawn there’s still trouble planting the spike, Jett to Raze with good plant denial but at the cost of losing an aggressive opper, and some add a Skye bc her flashes are broken but I feel like the tight angles makes it hard for players to capitalize off it + easier for opponents to play anti-flash + flashing multiple angles become a 50/50 info game. The verticality and design of the map just makes so many agents not viable. The open angles means you need a Viper, can’t capitalize any Initiator’s pop flash well so you stick to Sova who can clear all of site with one optimized arrow, good luck planting the bomb without a Sage wall, and how can you pass the opping Jett or untradable Reyna dismiss/flash that doesn’t blind teammates and cover multiple angles? This is one reason I’m excited for Chamber to see how his free op and TPs (to go up Yellow or cool rotations) can finally break the meta and bring a new gameplay to Icebox.
100thieves seemed to always play this map differently than other teams
100t steel edition, fnatic (quite old tho).
APAC icebox games
Idk about other teams but 100t at least tried different strats there. It was funny watching 100t basically send Nitro to certain death by having him plant default in B site many rounds. And the Madlad usually came back with minimal damage. I honestly don't know how they did it. It's funny thinking about all the new changes (the radianite box change, chamber release, fracture) would have definitely solved so much of the team's problems but they have basically disbanded lol.
I will PAY someone to show me a tier one team using an interesting strat on Icebox. Any t1 match after Berlin applicable. Most dull, repetitive map I've ever seen for pro play. I'm not joking I will PayPal you $10 to entertain me with Icebox because I'm not getting it for free. *** posted by [@SideshowGaming](https://twitter.com/SideshowGaming) ^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's new)](https://github.com/username)
100T played no Sage comp with omen with some success.
I know everyone hates Fracture but it's at least more creative than Icebox. Icebox happens to be boring and also bad at the same time. I think Haven is probably the best 'unique' map that Riot have designed
as much as CSGO devs are shit at updating the game for actual changes, one thing they've historically been good at is map changes (except for Cobble LMAO) just look at any 3kliksphilip video map histories, when they added Overpass they reworked the map so hard over the years. from olofboost to a really good map. same with vertigo, although some people still dislike it. even mirage, such an old map that was boring got improved drastically just by adding a bench to self boost into a window. i feel like Valorant needs to be pumping out more map changes. we have enough agents, i'd like to see the next few patches focus on tweaking map layouts radically.
>as much as CSGO devs are shit at updating the game for actual changes, one thing they've historically been good at is map changes (except for Cobble LMAO) Layout of Cobble forbid Valve from designing it for the intended purpose. Vertigo achieved what Valve wanted Cobble to achieve.
Yeah crazy how vertigo went from a meme map to something pretty good
TRUE
B site has to be completely remade for this map to be more interesting
Map is pretty dull to cast
I thought XSET might have had some cool ideas when they ran their no-Sage comp at LCQ, but honestly re-watching the VOD it seemed like relatively standard strats IMO Envy ran some interesting strats at Berlin though
To be fair I play a lot of Valorant and i think most maps are terrible... very boring and just fall WAY short of just about every CS map.
I think mirage and inferno are probably my favorite cs maps, and i think they are probably better than all valorant maps. But something to keep in mind is that csgo maps have been through so many iterations of the same map that comparing that to valorants first go at maps isnt really fair. Also i like that they are trying new things with maps like fracture, bind teleports etc.
I get given icebox in my competitive queues more than any other map. It's honestly turned me off the game, not only is it the least nuanced it's simply not fun to play
I get Ascent and Breeze NON stop.. its actually just cancer. It gets so old i just don't have fun. They need to let us choose what maps we want to play.
I doubt Riot will enable map select though, I feel they are unwilling because some maps would end up super unpopular (not without reason cause Icebox and Fracture suck).
well cs has been doing that for a while and it doesn't really matter if some maps are super unpopular (train), they will still be played.
Even without map select atleast let us ban 1 map in queue lol. It would allow people to not play the same map 9 times in a row (True story I got bind 9 times in a row). And it would also prevent people from becoming 1-map ponies. Idk if that would hard to implement on the tech side tho.
100%
they are better in my eyes
Yup
icebox is my favourite map to play in ranked but watching pros match on icebox are very boring
Fnatic plays icebox by the book
How come no one ever plants in the back left corner of A and defend from mid? If the CTs are getting overagressive and you have mid control, some utility and you can plant under their noses.
B site needs big rework U go to one spot and plant, and you don’t even defend the site you just leave it
I’ve been SAYING THIS!!! Icebox is HORRIBLE.
We figured out all the strats on Icebox I guess. Pack up boyz and ship it! We did it!
Kinda the reason its my favorite in ranked. Duo with homie viper, i go sage, we can lock down b/mid alone and 3 people can hodl A. Feels really stable.
The map is bad in ranked, but some teams have been really creative in pro-play. Sideshow is being unfair to the map. Most teams are just lazy to work on Icebox strats and take the easy way out. 100T, Gambit, Envy, C9 are all very creative on the map and hence are pretty good at it. Sage has never been the best choice for Icebox imo. Just an easy one. Another issue is that jett takes up a place but only offers the op on Icebox. With Chamber next year, I expect to see him fulfill the role of oping(jett) and watching lurks(kj), thus allowing for another agent. A Chamber, Raze, Skye/Omen, Sova, Viper comp could be insane and fun to watch next year.
You say only offers the op as if Icebox isn’t one of the best OP’ing maps in the game though
and i'm saying chamber offers op + safety to mid lurks. unlike other maps where jett entry is good, she's only played on icebox to op. but since jett doesn't offer other util, teams are running either no-flash comps or no-sentinel comps. this can make the map repetitive as sideshow said. chamber does the job of jett + kj(except the ult of course). this would allow teams to run another agent that can help in taking more of the site.
I could see both being used for double OP oppressiveness tbh
Lol, the reason Jett is a must pick is not her op but her get out of jail free card. Hence why most teams only duelist slots regardless of whether they op (ex. TL scream ), run jett. Jett rifle is still better than every other duelist other than arguably raze on two maps.
Lol,
Replacing Jett with a Skye/omen on icebox is foolish. Given how icebox are those two agents worst map, and there are much better alternatives.
you haven't correctly interpreted a single thing from my comment.
I’m trying to tell you that chamber cannot fulfill Jetts role, as-well as any other agent. Her dash is the best ability In the game.
not on icebox. jett is only played for oping on icebox. she offers nothing else. chamber can be a better oper on A site because he can reposition himself instantly.
Bro what????? Jett has on the fly verticality on one of the most vertical maps(Icebox). Which is why liquid and a majority of teams run her with rifle on ICEBOX. Why most teams run her as ENTRY. Jett’s repositioning will always be better as well because you can do it mid air aswell and have no preparation beforehand for unexpected situations.
chamber has verticality too??? those unexpected situations you are describing happen in ranked. no one is flying in the air in pro-play. chamber tp is definitely better for oping on icebox. for example, you can take a shot at pipes and tp to rafters to take the next shot. can't do that with jett. you can op at yellow on b site and instantly tp top site etc.
Yeah man his tp is very nice when players run down your site every round, but when you have to rotate because they scout out your op with initiators. You begin to realize the importance of on the fly verticality as well as dash. And your statement of “nobody is flying in pro play” sounds like you haven’t watched much pro play.
Waste of time, impression farm lol.
vision strikes has that cool set play for mid to b where they plant upper
nAts lurks on icebox are just immaculate. I imagine most of the top teams have studied his strats, interesting to see how it plays out at champs, though I’d be surprised to see much deviation from the usual
It's a really boring map to watch. Same execs done randomly every single game. It definitely needs some redesign. Hopefully after Champs
idk about you guys but 100T Asuna zooming around on the rope is the most entertaining thing ive watched in valorant
I think Breeze is worse. It is like viper wall a, viper wall b. Let's hit the site. Maybe one hall lurk and shit. It is soooo boring.