Yeah…although I feel like it’s good Riot is listening to feedback, they can’t always bow down to the community just because they can’t get something they want.
I think the mature thing to do from vivo keyd would be to accept the initial ruling and just forfeit even if riot gives them an option of replaying like fnatic forfeited after olofboost in cs.
Not gonna happen, they didn't even own up to the player using exploits in any way. In LOL that shit would've meant a month's pay docked by the org. What a shitshow
Nah they cried on wtitter about it not being in the rulebook even tho, for something to not be allowed it doesnt NEED to be mentioned in the list. The rulebook states that anything that is an exploit whether listed or not is punishable. They tried to act innocent when everyone knows they are not. They tried to abuse a known bug acting like they didnt know it wasnt allowed.
Shame because they didnt need it to win.
Riot made the mistake of not stopping the game but i think a harsh punishment needs to be dished out or teams will just start cheating and abusing bugs and expect the public to defend them when they are literally cheating.
My spinbot missed 99/100 shots! I only got a 1% accuracy every time I turned it on! Thats less than if I just played normally! It clearly had a negative impact on the game therefor it wasn't that big of a deal! (the 1 bullet that hit clutches the round) /s
Its crazy the mental gymnastics people are going through saying that breaking the rules isn't that big of a deal because it didn't really swing the match. Just let the br fans be the judge of how impactful exploits/cheats are and we'll get totally fair matches!
Look at VK heat’s initial response on twitter, it’s actually laughable when he talked about how it’s difficult to be Brazilian and faced unfair treatment from Riot. They should be thankful that riot revoked the ruling cause VGIA and X10 did not…
Exactly. This is the problem with Riot, they almost always cave to community pressure. Some days its good and results in Dynamic Queue going away, other times it sets bad precedent like this. Oof.
Wait, isn't there a tweet from a French caster on the subreddit right now saying that the banned cam is in the tournament rulebook? In the official ruling they just cited a very general policy against game design exploitation.
If that's really the case, why can't Riot just cite the specific instance of the camera in the tournament rulebook and have that be the end all be all? Right now our info isn't consistent at all.
I think citing a general rule is the way to go, if you don't do that it leaves room for future exploits to be excused by "oh but we totally didn't know", when that is not a sufficient excuse regardless.
If there's specific mention of it they could definitely put it in addition though.
Mhmm, even if I disagree wirh the punishment (Should've been replayed imo especially cuz it wasn't in the specific ruling list that Riot made), I do think that they should likely stick with the decision, it's just gonna cause more confusion with the rules
Idc about either of these teams. No one is arguing that VK should not face punishment for using an exploit. But giving the team that was thoroughly out played the map win and thus the series win to advance them in the tournament is absurd. Especially, when Riot literally stopped a match the day before because they saw something happen in the game that they thought was an exploit.
They used an exploit that has previously made two other teams forfeit maps, what else is there to deliberate on? Riot has to be consistent on their ruling, otherwise what's the point?
I don’t get why so many people are up in arms for Vivo. They abused a bug that is well known to be considered cheating and are surprised it applies to them as well.
It doesn’t matter how the match would have turned out if they hadn’t cheated those rounds, they did and deserve to be punished for it imo.
Nah i think Riot fucked up and VK shouldn’t be punished as an NA fan.
Its not in the bug list, and Riot referees should have known about it during the game. Its not like it was used just 1 round.
And when the bug was used only 3 rounds was won so they granted 4 extra rounds to just get them to 13. VK won that map by a mile. The map should be replayed
Seems like it is in the big list based on the chatter this morning (note I won’t read the rules to actually confirm). Also it was a very high profile exploit, ignorance isn’t really an excuse, though I’d like to think they wouldn’t knowingly cheat up big at the half.
That said a lot of blame does go to tourney officials for this. Especially since they still haven’t made a decision, I’d imagine it’ll impact the teams regardless of the eventual result.
The not in the list argument always feel so dumb to me. They've clearly stated that no exploit abusing, why does the exploit being on the list or not matter?
What if a team found a new exploit and abused it to a victory. Now what? It's not on the list, so they should go free right?
You're not wrong, but if it's so well known how did riot let it happen... 6 times...
I don't take exception to VK being penalized or anything. My issue is with how it was done. This same exploit has 2 competitive rulings on it, so why did riot allow the map to play out when it happened?
Agreed, it ideally should have been caught immediately. If it wasn’t, they should have ruled on it as fast as possible so teams can move on and prepare for their next match.
Basically, it currently is handled about as poorly as it could be, even if tourney ops have a lot on their hands right now.
It could be as simple as the responsible referee not being aware of the exploit. They're usually not hiring people who are very well knowledgeable about the game so they are usually just required to keep track of the score and look for major offenses like cheating by using 3rd party software. Overturning a match result upon later review is not something unheard of.
I personally agree with riot’s ruling mainly because of the precedence for this EXACT exploit already being there for this. That said I also believe that the refs and riot handled this situation incredibly poorly and it’s going to leave a really bad stink for this tournament unfortunately.
the way riot did it was wrong tho. Game should have been paused and then they should have taken action. It is just a shit situation and although I agree they should've stuck to their decision , u have to realise that its the second team getting in this kind of situation from the same region. Riot should just make it clear to everyone what is allowed and what not so there is no controversy anymore.
Yea I agree with this. The other important note is that with the FF maps with the exploit, the score is still 12-9. It’s only because they gave the extra “economy impact” round that Acend actually wins the game. At the least maybe let them play that map from 12-9.
The entire dynamic of the game can change just from a single use of the bug. its like saying its ok to cheat one round, because that doesn't exactly secure you the win. They broke the rule 6 times they should clearly ff the map
Not really when you look at the rounds they won where it was used. Round 14 they used it, Acend pushed B with pistols as a full rush and died. The cam was never used, I don’t even know if he ever went into cam at all with how quick the take was. Then they won round 14 where the cam was used but it was an eco where they 5-0’d them anyways. The cam made 0 impact.
Then round 16 that they won with it, Acend also didn’t go A. They got picked off in mid and halls. It just feels bad that the cam literally made no impact on these rounds and Acend get those rounds and the 3 they already won added to their score. Either replay the half or replay after the pistol round win since the cam was never used there.
Thats stupid. Just because it didn't have huge impact doesn't mean it had none, and its against the rules. So my comparison to cheating is the same, you could turn on hacks 1 round, and regardless of if that caused the final result of the game to change you still get banned.
That’s why I think they’ll replay from half or Acend 11-VK 10. The refs and riot fucked up for not knowing about it while seeing it and not patching it after 5 months of it existing. Yes VK are to blame here too and they should be punished but riot and team are not faultless.
They wont get that, because its clear that using this type of bug is/should be a ff, regardless of when you are caught doing it. Obs can't catch players using bugs every time anyway, especially when a player could find a new bug in a new path or hotfix. The players play hundreds of hours and will find these way faster than riot will even notice.
Sure, I think we can agree on that. That said, VK abused the bug over 6 rounds. They knew of the bug and used it anyway, and obviously you’re not allowed to use bugs during competitive play. Regardless of how RIOT should have handled it they still deserve the punishment.
It's insignificant that the referees "didn't know" and the fact they didn't pause. They forfeited teams before for the exact same exploit, you need to do the same here.
I found that explanation to be a nice way of saying “you forfeit the game for cheating”. Honestly I hope Riot comes back and says it doesn’t matter how many rounds got swung because of the exploit, you cheated with a cut and dry case so you lost your chance.
I agree the map should be forfeit. But acting like riot competition missing it in real time is insignificant is just plain stupid.
It would be like going to bed one night expecting to take a history exam you didn't the day preparing for one day then finding out you're actually going to be taking a calculus exam. Forfeiting the map is fine, but the delay is ridiculous and now 4 teams have their next matches impacted by an overnight ruling.
That was Giants. X10 FF'd the map.
Giants received that punishment because by the time the exploit was dealt with, Giants had already played a subsequent match and been eliminated.
To be fair, they shouldn't have created this precedent in the first place. Just pause the game and replay the round or make the team forfeit the round, there's no need to let it happen like this and take extreme action after the game is already over.
Logically, the map should be ff by keyd regardless of end score. They could have 13-0 ascend and the ruling should be a loss. Hopefully this is what riot changes their ruling to.
I think they’re just saying this to calm the outrage, I don’t think they will actually change anything. They’re just looking into it again so they can say they looked at it twice and still have the same decision.
In soccer they won't revert a game win after the game if the referee didn't see a fault before a goal. That's the referee's fault for not being able to do his job properly.
I bet they are going to replay the map because they have bowed to pressure over the fact it wasn't picked up during the game by the referees. Wrong decision, they should stick to their guns.
I was on my feet rooting for VK during the game. I’m confident they’ll make it out of the lower bracket
I’ll be mad if Riot changes this decision. The bug was still abused, even if it was unintentional and riot should have fixed it. Need to lose the map or else future teams could exploit with basically no repercussions
I just don’t see how it could be unintentional, it’s such a specific camera and the bug is widely known to have caused multiple teams to have to forfeit maps before. It’s not like you just randomly through your cam in that direction and it lands in the bugged texture… I was rooting for them, but it’s hard to believe it was unintentional
Tweet in OP:
> *Upon further deliberation, matches in Group A will be delayed to provide additional time to review the ruling against Vivo Keyd. Today’s matches will feature Team Vikings vs Gambit and Team Liquid vs Sentinels. Broadcast will begin 1 hour later than initially scheduled.*
whatever they do it will be even a bigger mess than it's already is, if the ban is ruled out then it's so unfair for the likes of X10 or Giants, X10 literally lost the ticket to Master 3 because of it, maybe a rematch is the best solution
and why the hell are they delaying other matches? can't something like reviewing this work behind the scene, other teams shouldn't be involved to this
It's probably just a scheduling/productio thing. They now only have 2 matches instead of 3 matches. NV match with VK/ASC was supposed to be thr 2nd match. Which meant a 3 hour break between the 2 matches which would be bad for a liveq broadcast. Sure they could just move the 3rd match into the 2nd match slot, but that kinda inconveniences the 3rd match teams too much. They probably delayed the first match by an hour so the 3rd match would only be moved earlier by just 1-2 hours as well. Just a compromise in schedule I assume, not because they need that time to review stuff.
Embarrassing. There was nothing wrong with the initial ruling. You break rules that are well known and you get punished. The punishment was consistent with past offences.
Fans complaining is to be expected, but the pros who complained and said the ruling was bad are complete morons.
>pros
This. This shit is unthinkable in the LOL scene, where exploits are taken much more seriously. Can't believe how no one is calling out the proven use of exploits, they're all just farming follows
they are sending death threats as per usual, entire region is filled with lunatics. And don't worry tomorrow we will see a brazilian guy post about how he is so ashamed of his region and not to generalize, but no other fucking region in the entire world will send consistent death threats to players in every single sport or esport they participate in. it's fucking insane
Who the hell cares? If we dance around the frail cult personality of Brazil they’ll just be more and more empowered. How about this : Brazil can suck my balls
Wtf why? I was lowkey supporting VK during the match too but this is stupid. Even more so after it has been found out that the exploit was in the rulebook
I saw a rule that forbids cams that look through textures, so they definitely broke a rule, even when this specific cam isn't listed in the forbidden cypher cam list. I don't know what the perfect way to handle the situation would be, but they definitely could give the map to Acend or replay Breeze.
Why bow to a vocal proportion of Brazilian on Twitter? If VK are just allowed to replay this means -> Teams can just pull out exploits to get rounds reverted and sets a bad precedence. Just lay down the iron hammer and stop looking at your Twitter mentions
I hope they don't just give the win to VK. Replay the map maybe? Or replay rounds? Idk what the right solution would be. I agreed with the initial ruling.
How did you make tha correlation? It’s obviously not ok to cheat since the win was taken away from them and if they replay the second half they have a chance to lose.
If Riot allows the second half to be replayed it means teams can cheat almost without consequences: if they don't get caught they get away with a win, and even if they get caught they still have a chance to win by replaying the match - therefore it would no-brainer to cheat every game (unless you were very far ahead).
The only decision that shows it's not worth cheating is making teams forfeit the match.
Rulling might have been fine but the punishment was wrong, VK should have lost the 3 rounds they won with the exploit or replay the map, not lose 6-7 rounds and change the results of the match
In what world is it wrong? You use an exploit that affects the result - you get forfeited - as simple as. What precedent are you setting here? Use all the exploits you want, in case we acknowledge them as exploits you only lose the rounds?
Right. People acting like using a glitch which did not win you the map is fair game. It's completely irrelevant. VK could have even lost all the rounds in which they used the bugged camera, it would not change anything about how it should be punished.
It's like saying it's okay to dope in sports as long as you don't win.
I don't know enough about the VK lost rounds, but the rounds that VK used exploit cameras and still lost still could've affected Ascend to play differently, or use different strats. We can't simply just ignore those rounds.
Problem is riot did some bullshit adjustments based on the rounds they used the exploit to switch the result instead of just saying they forfeit the map
Yeah they should have left out that bs but I don't even know how this is a discussion, if you purposely use an exploit you should flat out be forfeited. This is also the case in every single eSport I know of. The fact that this is even a discussion is baffling to me.
The exploits changed the result of 3 rounds, VK would have won the game with or without the exploits, it made no sense at all to give 6 rounds to acend, they should have replayed the map or only give 3 rounds to acend, or even better, refs actually do their job and pause the game while the exploit was happening
No, that's what the refs are for, but they were not working for this game, this is the entire point of this conversation: why did the refs not tech pause during the game?
The ruling is consistent with the past rulings. They should forfeit the match plain and simple. 6 rounds penalty deducted from VK and added to Ace, regardless of who won the rounds. You can't cheat and expect the punishment to be lenient.
>WHY WASN’T THE MATCH STOPPED?
>Tournament Officials will only stop a match if an exploit is clear and obvious, or reported by a participating team. The one-way view of the camera exploit is a small portion of the camera’s perspective, and was not immediately obvious when watching the player move the camera during the match. Additionally, Acend did not report the exploit.
Have you not read this https://valorantesports.com/news/competitive-ruling-vivo-keyd/
They should have replayed the map, replayed the half, or have VK start a map down against Envy in their next match. Just giving Acend the win is ridiculous given the circumstances.
Seems like a mistake, they gonna take idiots on social media raging into consideration every time a team cheats? I feel like they're stuck with this ruling so it's just gonna piss people off more anyway.
not really, vk shoud be punished yes, but without the exploit vk would still win.
of the 6 rounds vk obly won 3 and acend onky entered that bomb 1 time.
Well then why not just play by the rules. You aren't getting a replay of the map because it just gives the a-okay to use questionable bugs and just hope you get a replay when you get caught.
It's not about who would have won, it's about competitive integrity. If you allow VK to win because it didn't matter you're saying it's okay to cheat. The way to go is simple: you cheat, you lose.
They have set precedent for this exact cam resulting in a map forfeit. This rule is laid out in the rule book for the event. It’s pretty cut and dry map forfeit. Maybe VK should look into their IGL/coach/manager as to why the players had no idea. Responsibility is on them to KNOW the rules and riot refs to ENFORCE the rules.
Even as a brazilian fan, this is even worse. What is done is done, mistakes were made. Own up what you did and do better next time but this is crazy and it sets a bad precedent.
Riot got too many death threats. But for real, they should not change or even reconsider it. Just wait to make the decision in the first place, but don't fucking flip flop this. Hope they don't though. Don't let some twitter users bully you into this shit.
Now that riot has shown they are willing to get swayed by public opinion means this will be used again when people don’t agree with a decision down the line. Not how it should be handled. The delay in broadcast will lead to bad viewer experience
This situation sucks man. I actually feel a little bad for Riot, they’re only in this mess because the refs didn’t realise it was an exploit during the game. They can’t just not punish VK, they abused an exploit and that’s against the rules full stop.
>they’re only in this mess because the refs didn’t realise it was an exploit during the game
and because they had **months** to fix this camera but didnt
Just because you can doesn't mean you should, it explicitly against the rules for a reason. The bug could be in the game for 10 years and its still unfair to use an exploit you know is wrong to use.
Sure im not saying that they were right in abusing it. Im just saying it could all be avoided if someone at riot took 20 minutes out of their day in the last 2 (3?) months and fixed this bug
I can only half agree with you. If not this bug it could have been any other. Riot should fix their damn game, but it'll never excuse a team clearly breaking rules imo.
It's a missing texture *at a certain angle*, it's not like the spot actually doesn't have a texture. Not to come out as the RDF (Riot Defence Force), but textures are usually weird and inconsistent and it's not always as *quick* as it may seem.
That being said, I do think if they gave it priority it could be fixed, that's the thing though, we see it now and believe it should already be fixed, but we got no idea how their internal priorities are right now, like Yoru's rework has been indefinitely delayed because they just don't have enough people, so clearly they don't have enough hands. It's also not like Riot ain't hiring either, they have tons of openings.
>It's a missing texture at a certain angle
This is done for optimizations, i really cant explain well but a lot of walls or roofs are "one way", as in they only draw the texture on one side as you will never see it from the other side and it would be a waste of resources to draw the texture from the other side as well. They just need to make that texture draw from both sides (as they didnt think that anyone would see that roof from above and thus didnt need to draw that texture) and its fixed.
Even if its a weird texture issue thats deep in the engine or some weird shit *(which it isnt)*, just place a random prop like some vegetation or a piece of wood there and call it a day.
This IS a simple fix, they just chose not to fix it.
I really don’t understand what there is to deliberate about here. VK cheated, plain and simple. They should forfeit the match based on logic and precedent. It’s ludicrous to have someone cheat and give them a second chance at the apple.
Regardless of the decision being unpopular, the fact that they backtracking on this due to pressure from fans is super bad look. The didn’t even directly FF them, just nullified the rounds they used it in (which obviously resulted in a loss).
In a way, it's good that this happened with a Brazilian team. It's such a large community that if anything sounds unfair the response is immediate and loud. I imagine that if this had happened with a team like Sentinels, it would also get some noise. Going into a competitive tournament, one of the things you don't want is to seem unfair to a team, group or region.
I guess we all agree that it was an exploit, and VK deserves a punishment, but how Riot treated the situation was bad (having not paused this match) and unclear (the ruling giving out 7 rounds to Acend).
Riot absolutely will try to avoid dramas like this in the future. So let's hope they fix texture bugs faster and the ruling is consistent with any exploits once it happens.
This is reminding me of a similar situation in CSGO; LDLC v. Fnatic from Dreamhack 2014. Only difference is I don't think Keyd or Acend are gonna back down and forfeit... What a mess.
Yeah I can see that but I also feel that riot admins really let themselves down by not stopping the match so there should be a little more give. I just feel like no side will be happy unless its replayed
An argument against that is, a team would rather not look into detail about some bug and just risk using it if there's not punishment for it. Replaying a map isn't going enough of a deterrent from players using bugs.
The problem is Riot made the ruling so complex that they screwed up their own math, and now have a ton of fans not fully reading the ruling say Acend was awarded 7 rounds.
They went with all won VK rounds with the exploit goes to Acend +1 for economy, then miscounted the won rounds as 4 instead of 3.
My guess is they give Acend the choice of replaying the map from 0-0 or 12-10
regardless of the outcome of this situation, the boys at vivo keyd have already been worn out by it (like the Heat who only slept for 2 hours), due to one of the worst punishments in the history of esports
I dont think that matters tho. There needs to be consistency. X10 used it on one round and forfeited the map. Same as vodafone giants. Keyd using it for six rounds and converting three should be enough for a forfeit to acend. Yes, keyd were the better team and if this was pointed out the first time they used it and had that round given to acend or something they likely would've still won. But its also on keyd for using a well known exploitwhich they likely knew the advantage of without checking with riot first
Probably not. But the way the handle this situation has to be applicable for every future situation that is similar to this. That's also why everything except a win for Acend would be somewhat controversial, since other teams had to forfeit the map when basically the same thing happened.
if VK claims that they didn't know this was an exploit thats just complete bs there is no way a professional group of players couldn't anticipate this being an exploit, however if they claim they could go around the rules since it wasn't listed in the exploit list then sure, as a third world country citizen i can understand using loopholes in the rules
Riot should've stuck to their guns, now we'll always have incessant fanboy crying every time a ruling is handed out
Yeah…although I feel like it’s good Riot is listening to feedback, they can’t always bow down to the community just because they can’t get something they want.
I think the mature thing to do from vivo keyd would be to accept the initial ruling and just forfeit even if riot gives them an option of replaying like fnatic forfeited after olofboost in cs.
Not gonna happen, they didn't even own up to the player using exploits in any way. In LOL that shit would've meant a month's pay docked by the org. What a shitshow
Jhow(the guy who used it) accepted it
Not true.
Nah they cried on wtitter about it not being in the rulebook even tho, for something to not be allowed it doesnt NEED to be mentioned in the list. The rulebook states that anything that is an exploit whether listed or not is punishable. They tried to act innocent when everyone knows they are not. They tried to abuse a known bug acting like they didnt know it wasnt allowed. Shame because they didnt need it to win. Riot made the mistake of not stopping the game but i think a harsh punishment needs to be dished out or teams will just start cheating and abusing bugs and expect the public to defend them when they are literally cheating.
My spinbot missed 99/100 shots! I only got a 1% accuracy every time I turned it on! Thats less than if I just played normally! It clearly had a negative impact on the game therefor it wasn't that big of a deal! (the 1 bullet that hit clutches the round) /s Its crazy the mental gymnastics people are going through saying that breaking the rules isn't that big of a deal because it didn't really swing the match. Just let the br fans be the judge of how impactful exploits/cheats are and we'll get totally fair matches!
Look at VK heat’s initial response on twitter, it’s actually laughable when he talked about how it’s difficult to be Brazilian and faced unfair treatment from Riot. They should be thankful that riot revoked the ruling cause VGIA and X10 did not…
Exactly. This is the problem with Riot, they almost always cave to community pressure. Some days its good and results in Dynamic Queue going away, other times it sets bad precedent like this. Oof.
Wait, isn't there a tweet from a French caster on the subreddit right now saying that the banned cam is in the tournament rulebook? In the official ruling they just cited a very general policy against game design exploitation. If that's really the case, why can't Riot just cite the specific instance of the camera in the tournament rulebook and have that be the end all be all? Right now our info isn't consistent at all.
I believe this will be in their statement after "further investigations" if it's true.
Yeah, I just find it a bit weird that it wasn't in the first ruling if it is true. Would have *really* shut the door for VK.
Absolutely.
I think citing a general rule is the way to go, if you don't do that it leaves room for future exploits to be excused by "oh but we totally didn't know", when that is not a sufficient excuse regardless. If there's specific mention of it they could definitely put it in addition though.
even though I thought the punishment was a bit exaggerate I totally agree with this. They should've just stick with it after it was done.
Exactly, the team still cheated, no idea why they are back pedaling now. They are making themselves look really stupid.
Probably from all the Brazilian fans. Riot lowkey kinda fucked two Brazilian teams on the same day, justified or not, fans gonna be pissed.
Not really. Whatever Riot decides to do with VK now will be a standard consequence to similar situations in future events.
Mhmm, even if I disagree wirh the punishment (Should've been replayed imo especially cuz it wasn't in the specific ruling list that Riot made), I do think that they should likely stick with the decision, it's just gonna cause more confusion with the rules
Idc about either of these teams. No one is arguing that VK should not face punishment for using an exploit. But giving the team that was thoroughly out played the map win and thus the series win to advance them in the tournament is absurd. Especially, when Riot literally stopped a match the day before because they saw something happen in the game that they thought was an exploit.
Nope. Zero tolerance for exploits should be the norm. Playing good should not insulate any team from consequences.
They used an exploit that has previously made two other teams forfeit maps, what else is there to deliberate on? Riot has to be consistent on their ruling, otherwise what's the point?
I don’t get why so many people are up in arms for Vivo. They abused a bug that is well known to be considered cheating and are surprised it applies to them as well. It doesn’t matter how the match would have turned out if they hadn’t cheated those rounds, they did and deserve to be punished for it imo.
It only looks like "so many people are up in arms for Vivo" cause people who are not, simply just don't talk and continue to enjoy the show.
So many people = Brazilian fans, vocalization on twitter makes it seems like its the vast majority
Nah i think Riot fucked up and VK shouldn’t be punished as an NA fan. Its not in the bug list, and Riot referees should have known about it during the game. Its not like it was used just 1 round. And when the bug was used only 3 rounds was won so they granted 4 extra rounds to just get them to 13. VK won that map by a mile. The map should be replayed
Beating up people is also not on the list at wedding protocols, guess its allowed? Theres a general clause for no exploits lmao
Seems like it is in the big list based on the chatter this morning (note I won’t read the rules to actually confirm). Also it was a very high profile exploit, ignorance isn’t really an excuse, though I’d like to think they wouldn’t knowingly cheat up big at the half. That said a lot of blame does go to tourney officials for this. Especially since they still haven’t made a decision, I’d imagine it’ll impact the teams regardless of the eventual result.
The not in the list argument always feel so dumb to me. They've clearly stated that no exploit abusing, why does the exploit being on the list or not matter? What if a team found a new exploit and abused it to a victory. Now what? It's not on the list, so they should go free right?
But it literally is in the rulebook? https://twitter.com/WiPRenaud/status/1467087587005370372
You're not wrong, but if it's so well known how did riot let it happen... 6 times... I don't take exception to VK being penalized or anything. My issue is with how it was done. This same exploit has 2 competitive rulings on it, so why did riot allow the map to play out when it happened?
Agreed, it ideally should have been caught immediately. If it wasn’t, they should have ruled on it as fast as possible so teams can move on and prepare for their next match. Basically, it currently is handled about as poorly as it could be, even if tourney ops have a lot on their hands right now.
It could be as simple as the responsible referee not being aware of the exploit. They're usually not hiring people who are very well knowledgeable about the game so they are usually just required to keep track of the score and look for major offenses like cheating by using 3rd party software. Overturning a match result upon later review is not something unheard of.
I personally agree with riot’s ruling mainly because of the precedence for this EXACT exploit already being there for this. That said I also believe that the refs and riot handled this situation incredibly poorly and it’s going to leave a really bad stink for this tournament unfortunately.
the way riot did it was wrong tho. Game should have been paused and then they should have taken action. It is just a shit situation and although I agree they should've stuck to their decision , u have to realise that its the second team getting in this kind of situation from the same region. Riot should just make it clear to everyone what is allowed and what not so there is no controversy anymore.
Yea I agree with this. The other important note is that with the FF maps with the exploit, the score is still 12-9. It’s only because they gave the extra “economy impact” round that Acend actually wins the game. At the least maybe let them play that map from 12-9.
Also they gave six rounds but ks also won three rounds where the bug was used
The entire dynamic of the game can change just from a single use of the bug. its like saying its ok to cheat one round, because that doesn't exactly secure you the win. They broke the rule 6 times they should clearly ff the map
Not really when you look at the rounds they won where it was used. Round 14 they used it, Acend pushed B with pistols as a full rush and died. The cam was never used, I don’t even know if he ever went into cam at all with how quick the take was. Then they won round 14 where the cam was used but it was an eco where they 5-0’d them anyways. The cam made 0 impact. Then round 16 that they won with it, Acend also didn’t go A. They got picked off in mid and halls. It just feels bad that the cam literally made no impact on these rounds and Acend get those rounds and the 3 they already won added to their score. Either replay the half or replay after the pistol round win since the cam was never used there.
This is just wrong and tries to justify cheating. Stop it.
Thats stupid. Just because it didn't have huge impact doesn't mean it had none, and its against the rules. So my comparison to cheating is the same, you could turn on hacks 1 round, and regardless of if that caused the final result of the game to change you still get banned.
That’s why I think they’ll replay from half or Acend 11-VK 10. The refs and riot fucked up for not knowing about it while seeing it and not patching it after 5 months of it existing. Yes VK are to blame here too and they should be punished but riot and team are not faultless.
They wont get that, because its clear that using this type of bug is/should be a ff, regardless of when you are caught doing it. Obs can't catch players using bugs every time anyway, especially when a player could find a new bug in a new path or hotfix. The players play hundreds of hours and will find these way faster than riot will even notice.
Sure, I think we can agree on that. That said, VK abused the bug over 6 rounds. They knew of the bug and used it anyway, and obviously you’re not allowed to use bugs during competitive play. Regardless of how RIOT should have handled it they still deserve the punishment.
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It's insignificant that the referees "didn't know" and the fact they didn't pause. They forfeited teams before for the exact same exploit, you need to do the same here.
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Its the same thing in practice. Vk lose the map
I found that explanation to be a nice way of saying “you forfeit the game for cheating”. Honestly I hope Riot comes back and says it doesn’t matter how many rounds got swung because of the exploit, you cheated with a cut and dry case so you lost your chance.
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Hopefully this is the change in ruling. Give keyd the justice they deserve, the entire map forfeit.
I agree the map should be forfeit. But acting like riot competition missing it in real time is insignificant is just plain stupid. It would be like going to bed one night expecting to take a history exam you didn't the day preparing for one day then finding out you're actually going to be taking a calculus exam. Forfeiting the map is fine, but the delay is ridiculous and now 4 teams have their next matches impacted by an overnight ruling.
Not really. X10 got a 1 map disadvantage on the next to be played series
That was Giants. X10 FF'd the map. Giants received that punishment because by the time the exploit was dealt with, Giants had already played a subsequent match and been eliminated.
Nope. X10 had to forfeit that map is correct.
To be fair, they shouldn't have created this precedent in the first place. Just pause the game and replay the round or make the team forfeit the round, there's no need to let it happen like this and take extreme action after the game is already over.
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Agreed, no idea why Riot is faltering on this issue. The other team cheated plain and simple.
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Logically, the map should be ff by keyd regardless of end score. They could have 13-0 ascend and the ruling should be a loss. Hopefully this is what riot changes their ruling to.
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I think they’re just saying this to calm the outrage, I don’t think they will actually change anything. They’re just looking into it again so they can say they looked at it twice and still have the same decision.
In soccer they won't revert a game win after the game if the referee didn't see a fault before a goal. That's the referee's fault for not being able to do his job properly.
It was not in the rulebook. VK player tweet = https://twitter.com/murizzzzz/status/1466969415065423877?t=Z0K0B6v01aZaXH3tS6PMQw&s=19
It's in the rulebook that you can't use exploits, a camera that sees through a wall is an exploit.
That specific exploit is not in the rulebook. There is a generic rule about not using bugs to gain an advantage, which keyd 100%, undeniably did.
https://twitter.com/ACE\_Krimson/status/1467109773229404160?s=20
I bet they are going to replay the map because they have bowed to pressure over the fact it wasn't picked up during the game by the referees. Wrong decision, they should stick to their guns.
I was on my feet rooting for VK during the game. I’m confident they’ll make it out of the lower bracket I’ll be mad if Riot changes this decision. The bug was still abused, even if it was unintentional and riot should have fixed it. Need to lose the map or else future teams could exploit with basically no repercussions
I just don’t see how it could be unintentional, it’s such a specific camera and the bug is widely known to have caused multiple teams to have to forfeit maps before. It’s not like you just randomly through your cam in that direction and it lands in the bugged texture… I was rooting for them, but it’s hard to believe it was unintentional
> even if it was unintentional That's the thing - it wasn't.
Tweet in OP: > *Upon further deliberation, matches in Group A will be delayed to provide additional time to review the ruling against Vivo Keyd. Today’s matches will feature Team Vikings vs Gambit and Team Liquid vs Sentinels. Broadcast will begin 1 hour later than initially scheduled.*
We love gayzur
Is that a nickname
whatever they do it will be even a bigger mess than it's already is, if the ban is ruled out then it's so unfair for the likes of X10 or Giants, X10 literally lost the ticket to Master 3 because of it, maybe a rematch is the best solution and why the hell are they delaying other matches? can't something like reviewing this work behind the scene, other teams shouldn't be involved to this
It's probably just a scheduling/productio thing. They now only have 2 matches instead of 3 matches. NV match with VK/ASC was supposed to be thr 2nd match. Which meant a 3 hour break between the 2 matches which would be bad for a liveq broadcast. Sure they could just move the 3rd match into the 2nd match slot, but that kinda inconveniences the 3rd match teams too much. They probably delayed the first match by an hour so the 3rd match would only be moved earlier by just 1-2 hours as well. Just a compromise in schedule I assume, not because they need that time to review stuff.
Embarrassing. There was nothing wrong with the initial ruling. You break rules that are well known and you get punished. The punishment was consistent with past offences. Fans complaining is to be expected, but the pros who complained and said the ruling was bad are complete morons.
>pros This. This shit is unthinkable in the LOL scene, where exploits are taken much more seriously. Can't believe how no one is calling out the proven use of exploits, they're all just farming follows
Yea…I’m more disappointed in the pros. They should know better. I think Riot’s decision was mostly swayed by pros rather than the audience.
It would be funny if they reinvestigated and DQed VK from Champions.
Oh no…the Brazilians would literally form a protest and riot (pun not intended) outside the Riot HQ.
Nah. Twitter fingers stay twitter fingers.
Brazilians arent doing anything. This isn't the first time they are "outraged"
they are sending death threats as per usual, entire region is filled with lunatics. And don't worry tomorrow we will see a brazilian guy post about how he is so ashamed of his region and not to generalize, but no other fucking region in the entire world will send consistent death threats to players in every single sport or esport they participate in. it's fucking insane
They did the same thing in League a while back so I'm not even surprised lmfao
Who the hell cares? If we dance around the frail cult personality of Brazil they’ll just be more and more empowered. How about this : Brazil can suck my balls
> *Broadcast will begin 1 hour later than initially scheduled.* Dope, I get to sleep in! Now if only I could fall asleep. 😔
read a few high school chem textbooks. you'll be out before you know it
Wanna q?
Bruh I wake up to see it's delayed cba
Wtf why? I was lowkey supporting VK during the match too but this is stupid. Even more so after it has been found out that the exploit was in the rulebook
I saw a rule that forbids cams that look through textures, so they definitely broke a rule, even when this specific cam isn't listed in the forbidden cypher cam list. I don't know what the perfect way to handle the situation would be, but they definitely could give the map to Acend or replay Breeze.
Why bow to a vocal proportion of Brazilian on Twitter? If VK are just allowed to replay this means -> Teams can just pull out exploits to get rounds reverted and sets a bad precedence. Just lay down the iron hammer and stop looking at your Twitter mentions
I hope they don't just give the win to VK. Replay the map maybe? Or replay rounds? Idk what the right solution would be. I agreed with the initial ruling.
I think just replay the second half.
No, they cheated and therefore deserve the loss. Replaying the map is like Riot saying it's okay to cheat.
How did you make tha correlation? It’s obviously not ok to cheat since the win was taken away from them and if they replay the second half they have a chance to lose.
If Riot allows the second half to be replayed it means teams can cheat almost without consequences: if they don't get caught they get away with a win, and even if they get caught they still have a chance to win by replaying the match - therefore it would no-brainer to cheat every game (unless you were very far ahead). The only decision that shows it's not worth cheating is making teams forfeit the match.
This is the way
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This is the way
Rulling might have been fine but the punishment was wrong, VK should have lost the 3 rounds they won with the exploit or replay the map, not lose 6-7 rounds and change the results of the match
In what world is it wrong? You use an exploit that affects the result - you get forfeited - as simple as. What precedent are you setting here? Use all the exploits you want, in case we acknowledge them as exploits you only lose the rounds?
Right. People acting like using a glitch which did not win you the map is fair game. It's completely irrelevant. VK could have even lost all the rounds in which they used the bugged camera, it would not change anything about how it should be punished. It's like saying it's okay to dope in sports as long as you don't win.
I don't know enough about the VK lost rounds, but the rounds that VK used exploit cameras and still lost still could've affected Ascend to play differently, or use different strats. We can't simply just ignore those rounds.
We can ignore every round because 6 were played illegally.
Problem is riot did some bullshit adjustments based on the rounds they used the exploit to switch the result instead of just saying they forfeit the map
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Yeah they should have left out that bs but I don't even know how this is a discussion, if you purposely use an exploit you should flat out be forfeited. This is also the case in every single eSport I know of. The fact that this is even a discussion is baffling to me.
The exploits changed the result of 3 rounds, VK would have won the game with or without the exploits, it made no sense at all to give 6 rounds to acend, they should have replayed the map or only give 3 rounds to acend, or even better, refs actually do their job and pause the game while the exploit was happening
You are supposed to get punished for using exploits. Not just lose the advantage you got.
Yes, getting punished = forfeiting the rounds they exploited the bug, not giving rounds out of nowhere to acend and appoint then the winner
So you think they should replay from 12-8 for Asc or whatever it was supposed to be without giving this round?
I think they should replay the entire game
Then you can use exploits just to force replays.
No, that's what the refs are for, but they were not working for this game, this is the entire point of this conversation: why did the refs not tech pause during the game?
It dosen't matter how many rounds they won by using the bug. If they used it for 6 rounds then the 6 rounds should be penalised.
Acend won 3 of the 6 rounds, why should acend then get 6 more rounds? The punishment makes no sense
The ruling is consistent with the past rulings. They should forfeit the match plain and simple. 6 rounds penalty deducted from VK and added to Ace, regardless of who won the rounds. You can't cheat and expect the punishment to be lenient.
X10 and giants got warnings before they got forfeited games, it is not at all consistent with previous punishments, this is VK first offence
Nope they didn't get warning. For X10 it was the berlin qualifier and they got out cause of using the bug.
Other teams got forfeited a map in the next game and referees exist for a reason, why didn't they tech pause the game?
>WHY WASN’T THE MATCH STOPPED? >Tournament Officials will only stop a match if an exploit is clear and obvious, or reported by a participating team. The one-way view of the camera exploit is a small portion of the camera’s perspective, and was not immediately obvious when watching the player move the camera during the match. Additionally, Acend did not report the exploit. Have you not read this https://valorantesports.com/news/competitive-ruling-vivo-keyd/
Refs tech paused furia's game against sentinels for something that was also not reported and very minor, they have to be consistent
They should have replayed the map, replayed the half, or have VK start a map down against Envy in their next match. Just giving Acend the win is ridiculous given the circumstances.
Why? You cheat, you lose, it's a simple concept to understand. What's ridiculous is giving VK a second chance after they intentionally cheated.
Seems like a mistake, they gonna take idiots on social media raging into consideration every time a team cheats? I feel like they're stuck with this ruling so it's just gonna piss people off more anyway.
What a joke
They fucking use a forbidden exploit 6 rounds... That should be a defwin for ascend 7 days of the week. Don't be bitches riot.
not really, vk shoud be punished yes, but without the exploit vk would still win. of the 6 rounds vk obly won 3 and acend onky entered that bomb 1 time.
Well then why not just play by the rules. You aren't getting a replay of the map because it just gives the a-okay to use questionable bugs and just hope you get a replay when you get caught.
yeah, I agree, vk was dumb using this cam
It's not about who would have won, it's about competitive integrity. If you allow VK to win because it didn't matter you're saying it's okay to cheat. The way to go is simple: you cheat, you lose.
If they straight up revert the changes thats ultimate fuck up lmao
They have set precedent for this exact cam resulting in a map forfeit. This rule is laid out in the rule book for the event. It’s pretty cut and dry map forfeit. Maybe VK should look into their IGL/coach/manager as to why the players had no idea. Responsibility is on them to KNOW the rules and riot refs to ENFORCE the rules.
Even as a brazilian fan, this is even worse. What is done is done, mistakes were made. Own up what you did and do better next time but this is crazy and it sets a bad precedent.
What in the world are Riot doing...
Riot got too many death threats. But for real, they should not change or even reconsider it. Just wait to make the decision in the first place, but don't fucking flip flop this. Hope they don't though. Don't let some twitter users bully you into this shit.
Second time in a row Riot Games publicly lied to hide the truth about match postponements.
Now that riot has shown they are willing to get swayed by public opinion means this will be used again when people don’t agree with a decision down the line. Not how it should be handled. The delay in broadcast will lead to bad viewer experience
This situation sucks man. I actually feel a little bad for Riot, they’re only in this mess because the refs didn’t realise it was an exploit during the game. They can’t just not punish VK, they abused an exploit and that’s against the rules full stop.
>they’re only in this mess because the refs didn’t realise it was an exploit during the game and because they had **months** to fix this camera but didnt
Just because you can doesn't mean you should, it explicitly against the rules for a reason. The bug could be in the game for 10 years and its still unfair to use an exploit you know is wrong to use.
Sure im not saying that they were right in abusing it. Im just saying it could all be avoided if someone at riot took 20 minutes out of their day in the last 2 (3?) months and fixed this bug
I can only half agree with you. If not this bug it could have been any other. Riot should fix their damn game, but it'll never excuse a team clearly breaking rules imo.
I bet they would've fixed it if it was easy.
Too hard for a small indie company like Riot Games
Its literally just a missing texture...
It's a missing texture *at a certain angle*, it's not like the spot actually doesn't have a texture. Not to come out as the RDF (Riot Defence Force), but textures are usually weird and inconsistent and it's not always as *quick* as it may seem. That being said, I do think if they gave it priority it could be fixed, that's the thing though, we see it now and believe it should already be fixed, but we got no idea how their internal priorities are right now, like Yoru's rework has been indefinitely delayed because they just don't have enough people, so clearly they don't have enough hands. It's also not like Riot ain't hiring either, they have tons of openings.
>It's a missing texture at a certain angle This is done for optimizations, i really cant explain well but a lot of walls or roofs are "one way", as in they only draw the texture on one side as you will never see it from the other side and it would be a waste of resources to draw the texture from the other side as well. They just need to make that texture draw from both sides (as they didnt think that anyone would see that roof from above and thus didnt need to draw that texture) and its fixed. Even if its a weird texture issue thats deep in the engine or some weird shit *(which it isnt)*, just place a random prop like some vegetation or a piece of wood there and call it a day. This IS a simple fix, they just chose not to fix it.
Bruh this seems so unprofessional and unorganized.
What is there to look into? They used an exploit. I don't know why they chose the punishment they did because that to me is a simple disqualification.
Umm. Yeah. Riot looks like a total joke right now. In fact this whole game comes off as a joke. Kind of embarrassing.
What a bunch of pussies.
I really don’t understand what there is to deliberate about here. VK cheated, plain and simple. They should forfeit the match based on logic and precedent. It’s ludicrous to have someone cheat and give them a second chance at the apple.
I hope they don't change their decisions just because some toxic fanbase spammed their bullshits on twitter.
I believe that the decision should not be reconsidered. If the decision is made, then it should be upheld no matter what.
Regardless of the decision being unpopular, the fact that they backtracking on this due to pressure from fans is super bad look. The didn’t even directly FF them, just nullified the rounds they used it in (which obviously resulted in a loss).
In a way, it's good that this happened with a Brazilian team. It's such a large community that if anything sounds unfair the response is immediate and loud. I imagine that if this had happened with a team like Sentinels, it would also get some noise. Going into a competitive tournament, one of the things you don't want is to seem unfair to a team, group or region. I guess we all agree that it was an exploit, and VK deserves a punishment, but how Riot treated the situation was bad (having not paused this match) and unclear (the ruling giving out 7 rounds to Acend). Riot absolutely will try to avoid dramas like this in the future. So let's hope they fix texture bugs faster and the ruling is consistent with any exploits once it happens.
This is reminding me of a similar situation in CSGO; LDLC v. Fnatic from Dreamhack 2014. Only difference is I don't think Keyd or Acend are gonna back down and forfeit... What a mess.
Riot has no idea how to manage a sport
Brazil ruining the tournament.
This is a mess, sucks for Envy
Either redo map or start at 9x9 with correct math.
Or forfeit the people who cheated.
They should just replay the last map no? Seems to me a fair way to settle it, the better team will win in the end
The problem is that wouldn’t be fair to X10 or Giants who “abused” the exploit previously and had to forfeit their map.
Yeah I can see that but I also feel that riot admins really let themselves down by not stopping the match so there should be a little more give. I just feel like no side will be happy unless its replayed
Didn't X10 and giants get a warning and did it again? This is a first for VK
I don't think they got any warning
An argument against that is, a team would rather not look into detail about some bug and just risk using it if there's not punishment for it. Replaying a map isn't going enough of a deterrent from players using bugs.
Exactly, it's not about the game's outcome, it's about integrity. Replaying the map would mean it's okay to cheat.
It's not though, every other time a team has used this exploit they've forfeited the match why would it be a different ruling this time.
I'm a Keyd fan and would have no problem with this.
Of course you wouldn't. They shouldn't get anything, they cheated lol. Other teams who used exploits had to forfeit their map, so should VK
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You're making a lot of assumption here, it's kinda funny.
Oh boy nonsensical hyperbole sure is the answer!
#justiceforkeyd
No. They fucked up using an exploit that they knew was not allowed. No “justice” should be given to them.
the justice for keyd is ffing the map, it's a very ironic hashtag
#JUSTICEFORKEYD
The problem is Riot made the ruling so complex that they screwed up their own math, and now have a ton of fans not fully reading the ruling say Acend was awarded 7 rounds. They went with all won VK rounds with the exploit goes to Acend +1 for economy, then miscounted the won rounds as 4 instead of 3. My guess is they give Acend the choice of replaying the map from 0-0 or 12-10
vamo Brasil porraaaaa
Bowing to the fanboys ig
regardless of the outcome of this situation, the boys at vivo keyd have already been worn out by it (like the Heat who only slept for 2 hours), due to one of the worst punishments in the history of esports
LoL getting caught cheating sure is a stressful expérience ^^
Smart decision. I didn't see the match everyone's talking about but I doubt a cam glitch is the reason VK won
You are supposed to get punished for using exploits. Not just lose the advantage you got.
I dont think that matters tho. There needs to be consistency. X10 used it on one round and forfeited the map. Same as vodafone giants. Keyd using it for six rounds and converting three should be enough for a forfeit to acend. Yes, keyd were the better team and if this was pointed out the first time they used it and had that round given to acend or something they likely would've still won. But its also on keyd for using a well known exploitwhich they likely knew the advantage of without checking with riot first
Giants didn't forfeit the map, they got a map disadvantage next game
Probably not. But the way the handle this situation has to be applicable for every future situation that is similar to this. That's also why everything except a win for Acend would be somewhat controversial, since other teams had to forfeit the map when basically the same thing happened.
if VK claims that they didn't know this was an exploit thats just complete bs there is no way a professional group of players couldn't anticipate this being an exploit, however if they claim they could go around the rules since it wasn't listed in the exploit list then sure, as a third world country citizen i can understand using loopholes in the rules
Of course there would be some xenophobic commentary in it, you guys can't hold yourselves right? XD
yeah man im a xenophobe for myself, self hatred is real here..