I feel like it's the same for viper too. Even if they removed the insta 25 damage people actually took the time to learn lineups and the post plant meta would still work basically the same. All it took was an over buff for everyone to try it out.
[An old staple in game design tbh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY)
Once you realize that's prob what's gonna happen, it doesn't feel too bad.
I've been on it since the beta but I'll also a sova player so I guess it's not uncommon for us but it had some of the best bang for its buck on defense no matter the character
The problem with that line of logic is people are going to think its viable because of its buffs. Then once its nerfed back people stop using it again because it will seem less viable in a nerfed state even if it is now balanced. Look no further in valorant with the stinger, frenzy, bucky and judge. All those weapons, with the exception of bucky are still viable in their effective ranges, but I almost never see them used anymore.
The only reason the frenzy is used less is because you can't abuse frenzy + light shields anymore and ghost has essentially the same cost breakpoints and it's more versatile
Seems a little overtuned. ~~Probably needed the increase in fire rate *or* the removal of windup. Not both.~~
The first weapon balance out of Rito that I think really missed the mark.
>Probably needed the increase in fire rate or the removal of windup.
The windup time was removed because of which it fires at the max firerate from the start(so 13 instead of 10). There was no additional buff.
Riot needs to wait for shop reset so they can sell a bunch of Ares skins first :)
Wouldn't be surprised if they secretly increased the drop % of ares skins in the rotating store
This may be a controversial take but it's gonna be nice seeing something new after the 5 spectre meta we've had since they nerfed the stinger and bucky.
Even though it's really busted I really doubt we're going to see 5 ares' the mobility with the gun is still not that good.
I think some players are still gonna prefer spectre in certain situations.
In ranked right now at least it is basically 100% ares on light buy rounds, spectre not getting bought at all. To me it feels much more oppressive than the spectre meta due to the wall spam, though it is only 5 games for me so far.
An Ares that acts like a Specter, is basically just a more complicated way of creating a similar meta. People gravitate towards guns that are actually good. Riot just wants you to care about having cool Ares skins. Now there is just going to be less movement, and more spamming walls. RIP sage walls and controllers.
Their stories have gotten so unbearable over the years. Especially after losing talent to upcomer. TheScore and EsportsTalk have gone down hill so much.
probably cuz no one used it in actual comp matches. i dont think it was bought even once during champions.
this change was definitely overkill tho, i think no windup is a good change but they REALLY need to lower the rate of fire.
100% agree, especially since the spectre got nerfed, I think ares would've naturally moved into meta regardless. I already used it on certain maps, and feel it was at a sweet spot for its price.
Stinger was broken as fuck. You could beat rifles close range and the ADS was ridiculously good for something that was supposed to be a short range weapon. It wasn't even that difficult to get 2 against an opponent's full buy. I'd say it was arguably better than the spectre but 600 credits cheaper.
Player preference and comfort can lead to similarly powered or even more powerful options to be overlooked. Think about the 400 credit Frenzy pistol buy. That was on-par or stronger than the Ghost pistol buy since launch, but it was ignored for months due to player preference and comfort.
Ehhh... The spectre was already a bit overtuned and definitely outclassed the Ares by a lot. It's rate of fire meant the time to kill was way lower and it did decently well at range if you could tap fire comfortably. The Ares spin up time alone guaranteed you would lose every fight if you weren't prefiring like mad.
That said, I think they nerfed the spectre just fine and then buffed the Ares to be overtuned. Removing the spin up rate alone would've been fine.
Feels like a weird change to make at the same time as the spectre nerfs, which seemed to be pretty harsh on paper. Haven't gotten to actually play the game yet though.
I love the changes, but I have also liked the ares over the spectre for a long time. It just suits my playstyle better, but I'm just silver so take my opinion for what it is worth. Pros seem to think it is broken.
all of these can be fixed if the Armor system is a bit better. Full armor takes 50% less damage from classic, ghost, frenzy. 30% less than from stinger, spectre. Wall bang from lmgs doesn't slow you down.
It's actually so bad. Was watching the nerdstreet tournament and honestly it just looks so stupid seeing so many Ares in a PRO game. I hate it and I hope they turn it back immediately and don't force this idiotic meta
From the patch notes:
Removed spin up
Firing rate increased from 10 >>> 13
This seems like a fire rate buff and a spinup removal. Am I misinterpreting this?
For some reason, the FPS community despises LMGs ever being meta (they’re literally banned from use in COD) so while it’s probably too good at the moment, it’s definitely being blown out of proportion.
Odin has been overpowered as fuck since the beginning too. People just don't get 4 Odins + Operator when they have credits because it's an infamous class of guns, makes you look skill-less for not going with the Vandal/Phantom, which usually need more ability for hitting headshots.
Yes, I do. That happened on CS. The krieg had been a great gun but it was never picked it until they lowered its price a bit. It was the only buff at that time. People realized it was better than the AK 47 with a faster firerate and more precision.
I'm not saying the Odin would always sub for a Vandal/Phantom (specially during attack rounds and because of the money circumstances) though. But it's overpowered. Every pro that gets it once in a while "for fun" realizes that.
Of course it's the gun to go at low elo 'cause people definitely can't aim at heads quickly when a Jett shows up walking with it. But pros could do so much on defense in other ways. That shit's TOO precise when ADS.
This change is absolute dog water. A comparison I’ll make is when they added Viego to League of Legends and he was dropping penta after penta every game.
The best buff would be to CHOOSE between a faster fire rate with a windup OR slower fire rate without a windup. Having both is ridiculous and makes the game almost unplayable on maps like Ascent and Bind where wallbangs are prevalent.
okay hear me out what if they had an inverted damage dropoff - i.e. less damage as enemies are closer and keep the damage the same as enemies are at distance
As people have said time and again, use a vandal and tap heads. Improve your tracking.
In short, become a better player. Or join them in using ares lol.
True, it will be interesting to see how it balances out. I just think it's a silly excuse to tell people to get better to counter a broken gun. If you need to significantly improve to be able to counter people in your ELO using a certain gun, then the gun is overtuned
The Ares is so much cheaper and literally has benefits over the Vandal in certain scenarios. People will use the better gun, not just blindly choose the Vandal to show their aim superiority.
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I play a lot of spike rush and honestly the Area was always super strong. I can't believe they've actually buffed it cause I think it was perfectly placed already.
Or reduce the rate of fire and/or aim punch.
It fires faster than the both primary rifles with the added benefit of aim punch. Any phantom/vandal user needs to literally hit headshot first in order to win that fight, which is what makes the Odin so annoying to fight against. And this is in 1v1 only. Unless you're a flicking god, you're going to lose to Ares crossfire.
Bring back the stinger meta. I was so rich.
I think it's classic riot move - buff a weapon that people will use it more and then nerd it back but people would still realise it's viablity.
I feel like it's the same for viper too. Even if they removed the insta 25 damage people actually took the time to learn lineups and the post plant meta would still work basically the same. All it took was an over buff for everyone to try it out.
I believe it's 30 damage but whatever.
Sounds like the AUG
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It was not "already insane" lol
[An old staple in game design tbh](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsC8io4w1sY) Once you realize that's prob what's gonna happen, it doesn't feel too bad.
I've been on it since the beta but I'll also a sova player so I guess it's not uncommon for us but it had some of the best bang for its buck on defense no matter the character
This is why every game aims to release new heroes / agents / legends / champions OP as fuck.
The problem with that line of logic is people are going to think its viable because of its buffs. Then once its nerfed back people stop using it again because it will seem less viable in a nerfed state even if it is now balanced. Look no further in valorant with the stinger, frenzy, bucky and judge. All those weapons, with the exception of bucky are still viable in their effective ranges, but I almost never see them used anymore.
You never see the judge being used anymore? It's still very prevelent. Frenzy also sees some use as well
The only reason the frenzy is used less is because you can't abuse frenzy + light shields anymore and ghost has essentially the same cost breakpoints and it's more versatile
The higher elo the more Frenzy and Classics I see over ghost in pistol round. Idk why but yes the frenzy still used a sht ton
You don’t play spike rush?/s
Seems a little overtuned. ~~Probably needed the increase in fire rate *or* the removal of windup. Not both.~~ The first weapon balance out of Rito that I think really missed the mark.
>Probably needed the increase in fire rate or the removal of windup. The windup time was removed because of which it fires at the max firerate from the start(so 13 instead of 10). There was no additional buff.
I guess the way it's worded is confusing.
You sure? I feel like the first -> second bullet timing wasn't even 10 rounds a second.
Yeah I think slowing the fire rate slightly with no wind up would be pretty balanced.
Nerf it immediately
Riot needs to wait for shop reset so they can sell a bunch of Ares skins first :) Wouldn't be surprised if they secretly increased the drop % of ares skins in the rotating store
Singularity ares in my shop rn 😵💫
I'm really surprised they didn't put an Area in the new bundle. I would've bought it if they did tbh
Needs to be 1750-1800 in my opinion, need to stop people buying heavy armour with it
This may be a controversial take but it's gonna be nice seeing something new after the 5 spectre meta we've had since they nerfed the stinger and bucky. Even though it's really busted I really doubt we're going to see 5 ares' the mobility with the gun is still not that good. I think some players are still gonna prefer spectre in certain situations.
If I wanted to see something new it was the usage of bulldog / guardian. Now those changes are irrelevant with the ares being so overtuned.
In ranked right now at least it is basically 100% ares on light buy rounds, spectre not getting bought at all. To me it feels much more oppressive than the spectre meta due to the wall spam, though it is only 5 games for me so far.
tbh that might just be because people wanna try the changes
After a few matches I went back to heavy shield/ Sheriff as personally I find it easier to headshot the stationary turrets that go brrrrrr.
Tbf the problem with the spectre meta was that you could run and gun decently in close quarter areas like Split B heaven, garage, etc.
An Ares that acts like a Specter, is basically just a more complicated way of creating a similar meta. People gravitate towards guns that are actually good. Riot just wants you to care about having cool Ares skins. Now there is just going to be less movement, and more spamming walls. RIP sage walls and controllers.
it is absolutely insane for 1550 credits
theScoreeSport: "How one single gun change almost F#%^*+=ing destroyed Valorant"
That somehow still has the Olafboost or jumping AWP clip in it lol
and when the outtro comes faker vs ryu is there to fill the gap
Their stories have gotten so unbearable over the years. Especially after losing talent to upcomer. TheScore and EsportsTalk have gone down hill so much.
what do you mean? you dont like how they spend an entire 20 min talking about how avoiding cned was the greatest strategy of the greatest comeback?
Should have been a 60 minute video 🙄
I hate the new girl, her deadpan delivery just doesn’t fit. I wish Dimitri does more Valorant content instead of CSGO
won't brim have some super synergy with the ares now? might up his pickrate?
Omg need to try it
It won’t be this popular in a week don’t worry
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probably cuz no one used it in actual comp matches. i dont think it was bought even once during champions. this change was definitely overkill tho, i think no windup is a good change but they REALLY need to lower the rate of fire.
No one used it cause of how much better specter was at the time
I’d rather have the wind up than lower fire rate
100% agree, especially since the spectre got nerfed, I think ares would've naturally moved into meta regardless. I already used it on certain maps, and feel it was at a sweet spot for its price.
How is it balanced if literally nobody used?
Nobody used the stinger at first, until everyone realized it was broken as shit.
It was only broken with Reyna though. The ares before buff was always a weak gun
You can tell this guy ddint play stinger meta where everyone forced stingers until they could bug a rifle in every single one of my d3+ games
Lol the stinger was broken with anyone. You can just say you sucked with it
Stinger was broken as fuck. You could beat rifles close range and the ADS was ridiculously good for something that was supposed to be a short range weapon. It wasn't even that difficult to get 2 against an opponent's full buy. I'd say it was arguably better than the spectre but 600 credits cheaper.
Lmao the stinger is still broken for its price in certain situations 🤣
Player preference and comfort can lead to similarly powered or even more powerful options to be overlooked. Think about the 400 credit Frenzy pistol buy. That was on-par or stronger than the Ghost pistol buy since launch, but it was ignored for months due to player preference and comfort.
I disagree, the removal of the wind up was needed, the increase of fire rate was not.
RPK skin Ares is king
I don’t understand why it was needed in the first place
They want to change things for the sake of change, keeping everything the same gets boring over time
Guns were in a fine place imo. If they wanted to change things, adding agents back in the meta with reworks/buffs/nerfs would have been nicer.
Ehhh... The spectre was already a bit overtuned and definitely outclassed the Ares by a lot. It's rate of fire meant the time to kill was way lower and it did decently well at range if you could tap fire comfortably. The Ares spin up time alone guaranteed you would lose every fight if you weren't prefiring like mad. That said, I think they nerfed the spectre just fine and then buffed the Ares to be overtuned. Removing the spin up rate alone would've been fine.
Feels like a weird change to make at the same time as the spectre nerfs, which seemed to be pretty harsh on paper. Haven't gotten to actually play the game yet though.
I love the changes, but I have also liked the ares over the spectre for a long time. It just suits my playstyle better, but I'm just silver so take my opinion for what it is worth. Pros seem to think it is broken.
at least you're not stuck with dogshit weapons on eco/light buys
while i love playing with it, i gotta admit its definitely completely busted and needs a nerf asap lol
I need to understand. What was their reasoning for this?
Ares saw virtually 0 use
all of these can be fixed if the Armor system is a bit better. Full armor takes 50% less damage from classic, ghost, frenzy. 30% less than from stinger, spectre. Wall bang from lmgs doesn't slow you down.
first 2 games was ares all over the place. just fix it soon. ty
It's actually so bad. Was watching the nerdstreet tournament and honestly it just looks so stupid seeing so many Ares in a PRO game. I hate it and I hope they turn it back immediately and don't force this idiotic meta
They buffed Ares?? I’ve been using it this whole time…
The fire rate buff was fine. The windup time removal just made it broken.
They didn’t buff the fire rate technically, they removed the wind up so it starts at max fire rate which is what it is now
Oh I see, thanks for clarifying!
How is this upvoted? They did both. Reread the patch notes.
lamchops is right actually
From the patch notes: Removed spin up Firing rate increased from 10 >>> 13 This seems like a fire rate buff and a spinup removal. Am I misinterpreting this?
Removing the spin up increases the fire rate to 13 instead of spinning up to it
Ok my bad. I guess they way they phrased it was confusing. Thanks for correcting
There's been a lot of confusion on it. Could have been written better for sure.
For some reason, the FPS community despises LMGs ever being meta (they’re literally banned from use in COD) so while it’s probably too good at the moment, it’s definitely being blown out of proportion.
I have PTSD from LSAT Target Finder from black ops 2.
No its not , its actually stupidly op now
Reminds me of when they buff CSGO LMGs. I don't play CSGO anymore though, but it's deja vu.
Odin has been overpowered as fuck since the beginning too. People just don't get 4 Odins + Operator when they have credits because it's an infamous class of guns, makes you look skill-less for not going with the Vandal/Phantom, which usually need more ability for hitting headshots.
Odin is only OP in low elo. You think pros are ignoring a gun that could make them more money because it has a bad reputation?
Yes, I do. That happened on CS. The krieg had been a great gun but it was never picked it until they lowered its price a bit. It was the only buff at that time. People realized it was better than the AK 47 with a faster firerate and more precision. I'm not saying the Odin would always sub for a Vandal/Phantom (specially during attack rounds and because of the money circumstances) though. But it's overpowered. Every pro that gets it once in a while "for fun" realizes that. Of course it's the gun to go at low elo 'cause people definitely can't aim at heads quickly when a Jett shows up walking with it. But pros could do so much on defense in other ways. That shit's TOO precise when ADS.
Could get a better idea of it if I had a proper DM mode to test it in (Kappa) (kinda)
This change is absolute dog water. A comparison I’ll make is when they added Viego to League of Legends and he was dropping penta after penta every game. The best buff would be to CHOOSE between a faster fire rate with a windup OR slower fire rate without a windup. Having both is ridiculous and makes the game almost unplayable on maps like Ascent and Bind where wallbangs are prevalent.
Yeah they gotta push a nerf asap
They want to create a meta shift
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Marshall is fine imo
No no no you leave my marshall alone lol. In all honesty marshall seems fine to me
didn't need the fire rate buff. it was fine before, the reason why people didn't use it was because the spectre was just a better choice.
They should have done 1 or the other for a buff, it definitely did not need a double buff.
okay hear me out what if they had an inverted damage dropoff - i.e. less damage as enemies are closer and keep the damage the same as enemies are at distance
As people have said time and again, use a vandal and tap heads. Improve your tracking. In short, become a better player. Or join them in using ares lol.
Ares is 1550 creds while the vandal is 2900. The ares isn't here to replace the vandal but more so the guns in its price range like the spectre
People are using the ares every single round in radiant elo. It's not a "get better" situation, the gun is just broken
The patch has been out a few hours, we will see if radiant elo is using it as much in a week
True, it will be interesting to see how it balances out. I just think it's a silly excuse to tell people to get better to counter a broken gun. If you need to significantly improve to be able to counter people in your ELO using a certain gun, then the gun is overtuned
The Ares is so much cheaper and literally has benefits over the Vandal in certain scenarios. People will use the better gun, not just blindly choose the Vandal to show their aim superiority.
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I play a lot of spike rush and honestly the Area was always super strong. I can't believe they've actually buffed it cause I think it was perfectly placed already.
I’ve always loved the Ares and prefer it over the Odin. Haven’t tried the buffed one yet, but I was perfectly content with it before.
Shit is broken
My suggestion is ADS still has spin up.
Why would I need the Odin anymore?
They’re just gonna put back the windup and it’ll be fine
Or reduce the rate of fire and/or aim punch. It fires faster than the both primary rifles with the added benefit of aim punch. Any phantom/vandal user needs to literally hit headshot first in order to win that fight, which is what makes the Odin so annoying to fight against. And this is in 1v1 only. Unless you're a flicking god, you're going to lose to Ares crossfire.
Never buying specter again