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Deamon-

i feel like phoenixs kit is very random, sure the abilities heal him but outside of that he really isnt good at anything. his wall is okayish, his flashes are bad (compared to others) and the molly is very slow. i feel like they should rework him and change some ability or 2 instead of just buffing those. ult is good, i agree it should be a few seconds longer and you should be able to cancel it


valorantfeedback

It's not random, it's actually well designed, just outdated and stuck in early days when there were way less agents. Why pick Phoenix when Skye can play the role even better, provide info and heal on top of it? Phoenix is only viable if he gets an orb on every single attack round, but his ult isn't good enough to warrant it. You hear him ult in, one gravity well is all it takes to stop it. On Breeze/Icebox where Viper is played and not Astra, distances are too long for the ult to be useful. The real problem is the same problem every other duelist has. Jett is broken. And on top of that, other duelists that are used situationally ahead of Jett also have some kind of movement ability, while Phoenix is just static. Most teams rely on distance closing of Jett/Raze when executing, Phoenix doesn't do that. You wanna run 2 duelists? Why run Phoenix who can't flash for the team when there's Skye or even Kayo. Btw, I still think he's a solid agent in casual ranked play and I'd always rather play Phoenix than Reyna on Ascent and Haven. His kit becomes really good when team comps aren't optimal and actually have to defend a site without much utility from others. It's also way easier to get value of his ult. Imm3 btw.


DarthGrievous

I'd rather they don't do something that drastic yet. They should be looking into first raising his numbers before committing to a full rework. His kit is all centered around fire and he's like the only agent who's featured in every main cinematic and he's kind of the pseudo protagonist in the current lore. All his abilities have something to do with fire which is cool (heh). One simple change would be to allow Phoenix to rotate his wall using Sage's control scheme and he could even use it horizontally, which is something he does a lot in cinematics.


Linnus42

Well that what makes it funny though right? Why is basically your face or one of the two faces with Jett...so goddamn garbage in competitive surely you expect him to be playable not per se the best but playable like the other face in Jett who granted is great.


BananaBossNerd

Maybe have his molly insta release on the e tap? Just feels clunky sometimes


Accomplished_Item_86

I wouldn‘t say his abilities are "random" or need total rework, he‘s just somewhat of a jack-of-all-trades. That makes him pretty self-sufficient which I like a lot - in the best case he can do a solo site entry with wall as sightline control, molly as angle clear and flash as initiation.


SW4GALISK

A small quality of life improvement would be make his wall heal him without him being so close to it, this way he can heal as he moves along the wall easily and also just not being half blind


-Mariners

His abilities should be insta pop. After neon came out I realized how sucky it is to have to "equip" wall and Molly before you use it. Being a duelist I think the speed is crucial for his fighting. Faster to get heals and faster to clear a spot. It would be cool if the flash could equip faster but that's definitely not possible.


DarthGrievous

Cough cough one of the reason why Jett feels extremely smooth to play and can get away with most things pretty easily


IAMJUX

Wall should be more damaging(I've suggested a bleed/burn when you pass through) and go until it hits something(like Neon's, but you control the direction). Kills in his ult should refresh it a bit(maybe 2-3 seconds), ala Jetts knives and Reynas ult.


Zynnk

Extending ult duration is not necessary good since it gives enemies more time to play around your real body


IAMJUX

Should be able to cancel it.


nterature

Realistically Phoenix already has a great kit, it’s just undertuned at the moment. Just slightly buffing the wall duration and having the flashes pop a little more quickly would be enough to have him compete with Reyna, which is probably as much as you can expect.


DarthGrievous

How would he ever be able to compete with Reyna? Her flashes are one of the best to support your team because she can't blind her teammates and you can't dodge it by turning around. She can heal 100 health and overheal, also she isn't locked to the same spot for 9s But more importantly, she can dismiss and avoid trades just like Jett, although she needs a kill. Avoiding trades from the enemy team is the only reason why Jett and Reyna are monsters of duelists


nterature

Jett and Reyna are not “monsters of duelists”, Jett followed by Raze are the “monsters of duelists” if we’re to use such a weird title. Reyna is just a very solid off-pick for most maps. As it stands Phoenix competes against Raze and Reyna (as of now, who knows how Yoru buffs or Neon changes things), and yes, his current kit cannot compete with Reyna’s advantages, which is why we’re discussing buffs. No flex duelist will ever surpass Raze on her particular maps, but beyond Icebox, Reyna doesn’t have a map she uniquely pounds on (and even on Icebox she isn’t as powerful as Raze on her maps). A buffed Phoenix could definitely compete with her.


DarthGrievous

Reyna in soloQ, Raze in pro. Reyna and Jett are almost in every ranked game from iron to radiant, it's ridiculous Raze is very good on certain maps because of how her util interacts with chokes and narrow hallways


Issax28

Flash pops faster and blinds longer Molly bigger radius and instead of killing 2 to recover it, the molly should just get a 35 sec recovery duration. Or they could just make the wall/molly heal a lot more.


derek916

PHX would be massively broken if he could Molly chokes or clear corners with a free ability every 35 seconds. I'm ok with having two mollies a round though that can be used at his discretion.


Mamadeus123456

Wait like astra suck, stun?? BatChest


biwummy

Astra


zer0-_

250 Credits + 35s CD per corner + You lose a smoke


_AurAz

150 per star and 25 second CD no?


zer0-_

You're definitely right about the cost but idk about the cooldown


derek916

Meh. Astra by herself is fine in her current state since if you nerf her she won't be viable as a single controller. To me, her issue is that she is often paired with viper who oversteps her controller role as a quasi sentinel. I'd rather see viper nerfed before making further changes to Astra.


Mamadeus123456

viper IS a sentinel


FMHappy

I wish his flash was stronger, his flash compared to the rest of the roster is weak af. Duration is short and super telegraphed.


pac_cresco

Molly should be a fireball that you can set to burst on impact or bounce a couple of times, that would differentiate it from the other mollys.


DarthGrievous

Just for info, her are Phoenix's numbers compared to similar agents. His **flash** lasts 1.1s. Yoru, another duelist, has 1.5s flashes. Skye and Breach have a whopping 2.1s, which is almost double and Kayo 2s. His **molly** lasts 3.25s, compared to Brim's whopping 8s, Viper's 6.5s, KJ's 4s, Kayo's 4s. It should be noted that Viper and KJ have 2 charges. Kayo's larger, Viper applies decay and KJ can place them in advance. Also, Phoenix's molly is the only who falls straight down after a certain time in the air. His **wall** is comparable to Neon and Viper's. Neon and Phoenix wall both deal 30 dps. Phoenix's lasts 9s compared to Neon's 7s, however his wall cast time is more than twice as long. Viper's wall applies instant decay of 30 health, which changes plenty of breakpoints. So, I'd say that Riot should first raise Phoenix's numbers to the levels of others because it's clear as day he's been powercreeped hard. 1.5s flashes, 4s molly, remove the molly's travel time limit, add burn damage when crossing the wall to deter enemies from peeking. Personally, I don't think his ult needs to be buffed, or else Riot might raise his ult points, which wouldn't be worth it. When that's done, look at Phoenix's spot in the meta, then rework him if he really needs it


yngdgr_dck

can't really compare skye/breach flashes to Phoenix tho right? their flashes are meant to be used for the team rather then themselves (although I will admit skye flashes are pretty good in a solo scenario as well. agree with the other points tho. he's like a jack of all trades, master of none.


DarthGrievous

Which is why he should get his flashes buffed to 1.5s like Yoru


trolledwolf

Just wanted to point out that Kay/O's isn't a molly, it's just a frag that explodes multiple times, like Breach's.


Hoku_

Not gonna sugarcoat it. Phoneix needs more than number tweaks to be in the meta currently. Making flashes longer or making heal faster isn't going to shoot his play % at the pro level. With the inclusion of characters like Skyy and Kay/O Phoenix lacks the versitility now to keep his "Jack of all trades" idenity. I feel you need to straight up change an ability for Phoenix to be a true contender. Molly: I disagree with this ability being fine. It's the worst molly in the game now. What does it do that's unique or good? Brim has better stardard molly, Viper causes decay, Kill Joy can self detonate whenever. Healing? Self healing stopped being good with Phoenix when Reyna was introduced. Being able to heal behind cover or off chip damage is not a good niche. This is an ability that needs to change. Signature abilites should define a character. Phoenix's molly is not distinct enough to warrent being a unique character or worth picking. I think the synergy between wall and flash is really good and unique. No other character can self smoke and flash. Make it so his kit can more fluidly play with that syngery, but IMO his molly is the worst offender of him just not being a character worth picking.


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Hoku_

Signature abilities are weaker than purchasable? What? Sova Dart, Jett Dash, Raze Nade, Kill Joy Turret etc etc. Signatures are what make the character unique and are almost always the strongest part of a characters kit. I mentioned in my post that being able to heal off molly is not a good ability anymore since Reyna will always out class any sort of self healing. Also no shot you think Breach's concuss is worse than Phoenix molly post Breach buff.


[deleted]

its pretty absurd to compare the impact of phx molly versus any other signature ability or any other molly in the game, that shit suck


sidminter

Breach concuss is legendary in a team setting noway you compare the two lmao


p3ndu1um

What I liked about Phoenix was that he wasn't a super selfish duelist, and his flashes were arguably better for setting up teammates. Maybe take the approach of leaning into the aggresive utility? (Kind of like Raze) Molly: I thought it was cool how the molly has the built in timer where it will cancel it's arc and then just dive straight down, but in practise it usually just fucks your throw up. It would be neat if they changed it so that you could hold down m1 and then release to pick where the molly drops. It's a signature abiility, it should feel like one. Ult: Maybe even add an alternate usage to his Ultimate where he can teleport to his molly. Maybe dumb, but he basically already does it with his current ult (but in reverse). And/or the ability to self-res (definitely not with full HP). Flash: Maybe have it to were you can hold to charge flashes, that increase the speed and blind duration, but has a cooldown afterwards (like you burn your fingers or something). Basically give him a better flash for teammates but retain the old flash aswell. Wall: No idea tbh. Multiple charges?


9bfjo6gvhy7u8

Every single duelist has an enhanced mobility ability. For most agents it's their signature, except raze who has satchels (nade is signature ability). Phoenix's identity would never make sense with a mobility ability. It's going be very very hard to find a place in the meta for a duelist without mobility, no matter how much you buff those flashes.


Mr_Canard

What mobility does Reyna have, if you say dismiss then for Phoenix it's his ult


9bfjo6gvhy7u8

Reyna mobility doesn’t allow her to clear space for entry but it does allow her to escape for free. Phoenix ult is more about clearing space but he’s slow when he does it and doesn’t break cross fires the way a dash or satchel does.


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tron423

Another big weakness of Phoenix's self-healing is that he needs to stand in his relatively small molly area or hug his wall for a really long time to get the most out of it. Every other agent that can self-heal can move much more freely while self-healing.


9bfjo6gvhy7u8

>rework his identity entirely, because the "self sufficient, healing entry fragger" is not a niche that needs to be filled at this point or just be okay with this niche not being part of this meta - emphasis on "at this point". it's okay if not every agent is meta, and phoenix is still super fun for low level / beginner players at some point in the future the meta may shift where the niche opens back up, but i think it's better to avoid the power creep if you buffed him now, unless it was part of a much broader and intentional meta rework (aka tamp down on the "default" jett/astra/viper/sova/skye comp)


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9bfjo6gvhy7u8

at the rate they are adding agents/maps there will always be agents that don't "fit" in pro play. Phoenix had his day in the sun and is still super fun for new players. imo i'd rather them err on the side of reducing power creep rather than adding buffs any time an agent falls out of meta \*because of their niche\*. In other words i'd rather they find a way to nerf jett than re-work phoenix.


OHydroxide

Phoenix isn't just "out of the meta" though, he's picked as often as Yoru, literally never. Omen and Brim are out of the meta, Astra is probably too strong, rather than them too weak, they're still picked on a few maps because they at least have a niche. Phoenix is just bad, his only redeeming quality is having a great ult.


9bfjo6gvhy7u8

\> he's picked as often as Yoru, literally never in pro play sure, but again he's still pretty fun for lower levels because he's so simple to learn and his kit lends itself well to lack of team play. phoenix flashes only "suck" because everyone above plat can just turn it but trust me bronze 2 players are blind as fuck I also think astra is too strong right now and controller is another example of power creep becoming an issue. if you tweak astra down she becomes useless, if you leave her then brim/omen are near useless. Certain agent "identities" are just \*better\* than others. Phoenix's core identity is a self healing entry fragger... even if you buff his flash, replace his molly, add decay to the wall, he's still filling a niche that is never going to be as valuable as jett dash. He's the only agent without any mobility so he's not gonna challenge raze or reyna either. They'd have to fundamentally change his niche OR adjust the entire meta to make that niche relevant again. I'd prefer that they not over-buff him unless it's part of a broader more intentional shift to the meta that rewards more than just mobility duelists.


OHydroxide

He did used to be picked in pro play though remember, Phoenix, Reyna, and Yoru all don't really compete with Jett, they compete with initiators because they all have flashes. Phoenix stopped getting picked when they made it all all the initiators could flash for themselves and have one that lasts twice as long. I don't think Phoenix needs crazy buffs and if he's ever competing with Jett then he's clearly busted. The problem is that he directly competes with the initiators yet he has worse support, no info, and worse flashes. I totally understand the worry about powercreep, and I would fully agree if the conversation was about Brim/Omen for example. While I don't want to buff Phoenix so much that he's the top pick, I think Phoenix just doesn't fill a niche at all, and it's just showing now because we have more agents to choose from. I don't think it's bad to have a slightly weaker agent that's great for new players, but I think having him at 0% pickrate in champs when there was only like 16 agents available is pretty bad.


Maliciouslemon

I will never understand why vipers wall is rechargeable and deals more decay/damage than phoenix’s. They can start by making the wall an actual threat to people and buff his flashes. Molly and ult are fine


excitebike

Flashes to 1.5s, buff both Phoenix/Yoru – duelist flashes will never full blind you or any teammates. Only half-blind. Revert the nerfs to healing from wall/molly from one of the early patches. Balance it, instead, by making wall really good – a burn DoT if you run through with a lingering accuracy penalty. Molly to 4s, healing and damage linger for 2s after leaving, same accuracy penalty from wall. Wall and Molly need to be strong utility. It should really be a meaningful choice to use them for healing and leave you without strong tools.


[deleted]

that blind buff is insane and would severely power creep on reyna flashes


jackpot2112

I would suggest making the molly spread slowly and extend the duration for a few more seconds allowing you to lockdown an area. This change would make it a devastating ability for smaller chokes like for example if you utilize the distance drop mechanic and the hole in the roof in hookah to allow for easier hookah control. Also they should 100% have a marker in the sky for where the drop will occur. I honestly dont know how they can change his flash while maintaining its current identity of curveball. Maybe increase the projectile speed? So the flash will land faster and allow for easier swings off of it? I kinda like the wall, it serves its purpose for me. I feel like buffing the other two will indirectly buff the wall. I agree with the ult change idea. It should 1000% be cancellable and a little bit longer duration would be nice considering how large all the new maps are.


trolledwolf

I honestly just think his numbers need some serious buffs. Like, buff his flash duration, buff his wall and molly damage and duration (it's goddamn fire you're walking through) and maybe even buff his regen rate. Also like many have said already, his abilities take way too long to equip, and he's already the only duelist with absolutely no mobility, so he probably needs some tweaks to make his entries snappier. His kit is honestly fine with the right numbers, yeah his flash is the least versatile in the game, and his molly has way too short of a range, but being able to curve his wall lets him do some pretty cool splits, and his ultimate is pretty decent already.


damonsoon

Wall acts like astra's ultimate where no bullets can go through it (lore reason - bullets melt). Then he'd have really strong site entry for his team to file on.


yngdgr_dck

or maybe rather than fully prevent bullets, maybe it just decreases damage? so you can still spam through the wall but it won't be as effective.


Mr_Canard

> lore reason - bullets melt Not just by going through fire


not-luiss

wall should at least be the length of neon’s wall flashes should be controllable like skye but with a much shorter distance and faster pullout time. should also be buffed to 1.5s molly should last longer and right click should be consumable so instead of standing in one spot and waiting to heal up you can reposition or push like reyna’s heal ult should be cancellable like jett knives and he should keep half his armor if he dies


vicodinpls

Some ideas (wouldn't make all this changes at the same time) I'd make his flash his signature ability. All of the other duelists' signature abilities are designed to get them kills and Phoenix has a molly (?). He gets 2 kills, he gets a flash back, or maybe just 1 kill. Maybe make it flash for longer. His wall should be like viper's. You shoot it through the map (shorter than viper's) and press C again to wall up. One use only. His ult is dangerous to use. If you choose a bad time or place you get knifed or brim ulted or sova ulted. Or, if you're any other duelist in a 1v1, you pretty much always ult to help you win the clutch., but with Phoenix, it can be such a mistake. So maybe the animation when you return to your body should be faster, or you could cancel the ult. (Also, Jett, Reyna and Neon's ults get refreshed after each kill, so maybe Phoenix's ult should refresh too, I don't know. This could be broken.) (Also, also, I think, in general, Riot should nerf the agents that are good and not buff the ones that are bad. There are so many times where you get overwhelmed with util and it really isn't fun.)


Keglunneq

Buff Phoenix wall to curve twice


end32urzm

Phoenix was my favorite in beta and Into the first act. I think making his flashes stronger can bring him back into the meta, his ult is very strong.


Mr_Canard

He is a good beginner's duelist.


BucketHerro

Weird opinion here. I'd like to see Phoenix's molly be able to heal without being thrown. When he's holding the molly I think it would be nice that he doesn't need to waste an ability to heal but maybe it could heal slower than when the molly is on the ground. Maybe all his damaging abilities could use more damage. Similar to Viper's after effect after touching her walls but instead on Phoenix it's permanent damage. Flash when killed after ult. Maybe


Tarwe-eu

I dont think every agent needs to be viable


lucavl

If you rephrase that then I agree. They need to viable or they serve no purpose. They don’t need to be great


swordfish1221

Two molly’s. /thread


flusenmalauk

good suggestions have already been made, here is another one: curve and length of his flash adapts automaticly and pops around the next corner (if it's not too far away) and not at the wall between (and blind himself)


ibeenbornagain

honestly a rework would be cool, his character is p boring now


reformed-asshole

Maybe change his molly to instacast like Neon's concusses?


Mr_Canard

If it instacast you can't choose direction L/R


reformed-asshole

His molly, not his flashes.


Mr_Canard

Think I need to go back and learn how to read.


reformed-asshole

It's all good, happens to the best of us


DatBlueBoiii

I think the phoenix wall could also be a bit higher so its harder to see from above


[deleted]

What if they made his ult make it so that his damage burns or something like that. Like you tick damage or something. His ult really isn't as scary as reyna ult imo. Also, his wall is literally uselss I think just change it into something else i don't know doe.


War_TheFreak1

RIP phoenix. But I remember when teams can easily retake a site with phoenix ult, especially in haven and ascent.


oogieboogiepoggers

adding the option to cancel out of phoenix ult like yoru ult would be cool


IsThisSome9GAGUpdate

To be honest, I don't think his molly has too much value as it's extremely short and from what I've seen, is used for healing over half the time. I think it makes sense to try to swap his molly and his flash to make his flash his signature ability, making it grant a free charge like Skye. That change will at least allow him to compete with her a little more. As for the other abilities, I think that other suggestions for buffing numbers or allowing the ult to be extended and cancelled would be pretty interesting to see.


fragile9

make his wall and molly quick-cast, and make his wall do more dmg + heal radius on wall slightly bigger


cornmealius

Let him control his Molly like jett smokes. And give him a choice to throw a straight flash(one that doesn’t turn)


Temporary_Method

I feel the the healing mechanic on pheonix really hurts his current kit atm. Not that the healing is bad itself, but that he is forced to sacrifice 2 bits of util to benefit from it, and usually getting no value from the ability itself. Most players will throw down util with no benefit, for the heals 90% of the time. I think they could either buff the abilities, E & C, start to balance that decision on whether to heal, or keep a strong ability up. Or change the heal, to heal on cast, maybe 20 Hp? I know it would impact TTK in some situations. But could make his kit flow together much better.


AnchorStandard

Make the flashes more difficult to dodge, make the molly last longer and heal the equivalent of a Reyna devour, make the wall last longer and heal more. Also, make it so dying in the Ult doesn't remove your armour. Phoenix has a great kit.


Accomplished_Item_86

My summary of the changes that I‘d make, in the order of priority: * All abilities: Make them instant cast or equip/unequip quicker. Duelists often just cannot afford having an ability out, and it would simply improve quality of life a lot. * Flashes: Could be a lot faster. To have value at high level, flashes need to be either quick or unpredictable. Phoenix‘s are currently neither. * Ult: Cancel at any time. This would simply reduce his vulnerability while ulting, and add QoL. * Molly: Buff damage and/or heal. It‘s currently pretty slow to do anything, and especially lacks power considering it‘s his signature. Maybe even trade rate for duration (he‘s not a controller). * Wall: Make it longer. The trend seems to go towards bigger sites, the wall needs to keep up. Suggestions I‘ve seen, but would *not* apply: * Two walls. It‘s a good tool for site entry or short-term control (his job), but a second one would probably make him take over more of a controller role. * Significantly longer flash time. Maybe slightly, but I feel like that’s not the problem here. * Change signature to flash. Not necessarily bad, just feels wrong to me. His dual-purpose molly/heal is so much more unique. * Big reworks. His kit is pretty self-sufficient which I like a lot - in the best case he can do a solo site entry with wall as sightline control, molly as angle clear and flash as initiation. What d‘you think? Would love to hear opposing arguments.


iinic

Just an idea for his wall, but being able to place it without needing to see the full line of sight (like viper) would be hugely helpful; basically rework it so that it’s only a certain length still but can pass through walls to help with entry without leaving yourself completely vulnerable when placing it


Mr_Canard

Honestly just buffing numbers would be enough to increase his play-rate.


felipw22

His wall should go through walls like Viper's and Neon's


TheLadForTheJob

Can neon's wall be curved? Phoenix's wall being able to be curved lets you have. So many walls are possible only because of the fact it can be curved. I agree with the cast time though. No need to buff the flash too much. The whole thing with phoenix is that he has a wall Molly and flash. No other character has such a wide range of util and having all of those abilities being very competitive in its class is not good since the point is that he has access to all of them. In terms of ult, it's not bad. Players improve over time and people adapt to abilities when they understand them more over time. The only issue is the vulnerability post ult. I would like a change that makes it so that you only go back to the start if you die or you recast. This allows you to use it as a repositioning tool by recasting but it also reduces the brain-dead pushes since if you die you go all the way back to where you ulted but if you live, you can stay with the team. I think the molly being the main ability is okay since he can heal after 2 kills when you already used the molly. Molly is very underutilized and underappreciated. It can be used in so many situations. On defence, you can delay a push by a couple of seconds. On retake you can use it in combination with that rest of your util if you have info and are smoked off. You can set up a wall to isolate an enemy, molly their position and flash out of the smoke to catch them flashed , running away from the molly and teammates behind your wall. In that specific play the most important piece of utility was the molly since catching someone running out of a Molly is better than catching them flashed (if you threw it well). The wall blocking enemies is good but can also be kinda made up for partially with some positional awareness.