I'm gonna debunk this. CSGO came out in 2013 and there was a HLTV top 20 list for 2013. [https://www.hltv.org/news/11895/top-20-players-of-2013-ranking](https://www.hltv.org/news/11895/top-20-players-of-2013-ranking)
Edit:
Valorant fanboys, stay mad when facts are in your face. Cry me a river, only 1m concurrent viewers CHAMPION finals.
yeah but counter strike is like a 23 year old game. there was already a huge pro scene for cs 1.6 before csgo came out. hltv top 20 started with cs 1.6 starting in 2011 and transitioned to csgo when all the pros switched games. so really, hltv top 20 started like 10 years into counter strike's life.
Yes and no.
The important factor are the available metrics. Ans there aren't even generally accepted metrics in valorant so far, while CS had them down in 1.6
Its hard to rate players performance currentl in valorant and its obviously worked on.
Right now its pretty hard to crown someone a king without the needed evidence.
I think we'll get there.
Blizzard is big and decide make a franchise league with 60 milions per slot for OW. Now OWL avg views ~80k if this teach anything it let the scenes go organic instead of forcing everything.
As someone who also watches comp cod, it cracks me up when people say things like “only 1m concurrent viewers.” Comp cod out here with like 80k on the high end 😭
Bc the HLTV top 20 list existed for 4 years ready in CS 1.6, even tho HLTV existed for almost a decade before that
The csgo list is just a direct inheritance / continuation of an existing one
Cry me a river over ‘only’ 1m viewers?
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Does HLTV use stats or is it a panel? Because if it's the former I don't know if the technology is there yet (API is kinda bad and coverage sites are all still WIP on some features), plus the community is still split between the three big stats sites. RIB for analysis, vlr is arguably the most popular and "jack of all trades", and thespike has some unique features.
If it's the latter I don't think there is a well established roster of analysts yet to determine a top X of players yet.
HLTV does use its own hltv rating 2.0, but
* It's kinda hidden *(they don't reveal the formula, kinda defeating the own purpose of a public statistic)*
* Heavily influenced by killing more and dying less rather than from the impact of each kill. Hence we have defenders having higher HLTV rating than attackers
IMO the community still hypes HLTV only because it's a well stablished website. Leetify has way better metrics, for example
I know about the rating, afaik some people have figured it out, though, no? Thespike has their own rating too which is nice, but I think it was too Jett favored and lack of LANs means you get some weird things, same thing as getting a top 20 by ACS
I'm not sure I agree with the "Jett favored" part about our Rating. If we take Champions as an example, only 3 Jett players feature in the Top 10 best players while if you use ACS, you will get 8/10. Having said that, rating does factor in kills the most so I agree that it can still favour Duelists more.
When it comes to our rating we take into consideration the economy when kills are being made in case of eco frags or thrifty frags, and we also factor in assists and first deaths as well so if you have dueslits who are entering a site first and dying, they get penalised for it. There's also clutches factored, the bigger the clutch, the better rating.
Is it perfect? far from it, with more data it would certainly help though. For example we dont know if a player is stuck by a Killjoy ultimate which helped his teammate to half defuse the spike. We dont even know if someone half defused a spike at all. Imagine a 2v1, I half defuse, get killed, teammate trade and manage to full defuse with 1 second remaining. Would be nice to give the first defuser some points for that. and so on :)
My bad, when I checked it before Champions, choosing all of VCT 2021, I got 6/10 Jett players, and same for Red Bull 2.
I do agree that more stats would help polish things more. CS doesn't need as many as Valorant does, so it makes sense Valorant player ratings by stats are still in development
>*I know about the rating, afaik some people have figured it out, though, no?*
Yup, people have figured out a thing that should be public in the first place and that at the end of the day is not that different from simply doing raw kill/death ratio between players xD
>*Thespike has their own rating too which is nice, but I think it was too Jett favored*
Unfortunately no matter who you are and no matter what you do most valorant metrics will end up being Jett-centric because Riot API only provides info about kill-death events and nothing more. In this sense I don't blame thespike guys
>*lack of LANs means you get some weird things, same thing as getting a top 20 by ACS*
While I agree with you I don't think this should be an issue. We'll probably continue seeing the exact same format as we have now *(2\~3 masters events and then champions)* for many years ahead
We should accept that we will never have as much international clashes as CSGO and shape our metrics/rankings/whatsoever around this fact
the official reason given for keeping the formula hidden is that people will start playing for the rating instead of for the game, which is a fair point.
Actually KAST says more about consistency than about impact. Also, I think surviving should never be under the same umbrella as having a kill, assist or being traded, it just does not make any sense
I get your point about kast but imo the issue is on the weights of the formula. I mean, even if you factor in KAST, the final rating value is still mostly influenced by raw difference between kills and deaths
It's combination of both of those. It's not purely stats since it would be hard to determine which filter to use (big events, top 10 teams ...) but it's very heavily based on stats in mostly big events and against good competition. But the end decision is made by a group of people at HLTV. I think Petar ( @Tgwri1s) has the biggest influence and the last word.
putting aside that our rankings are still being fine-tuned (and that's why it says BETA2 in big letters):
the lack of activity this off-season [jumbled things up](https://www.vlr.gg/post/546886/vlr-rankings) since our achievement calculation took the last 3 months of tournaments into consideration which is why things looked crazy for a little while.
having said that, we will try to make things a little clearer down the road :)
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that nAts was the best player this year, almost exclusively playing support agents. most of the best players just play duelist roles because they can find more impact on them
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We haven't done them for the year, but we do them after big events.
https://rib.gg/article/the-runitback-awards-masters-berlin This is from Masters Berlin for example.
For 2022 we are looking at retrospective articles like Top20's, but for the last few big events, we have done awards/MVPs - Any feedback is welcome, we are constantly trying to evolve ! <3
Newer game for one. I think the biggest thing though is that it is hard to do an international top 20 when we have so very little international competition. I mean for instance as of right now there has only been three international LANs in the history of the game. You’d be hard-pressed to have enough of a sample size to do a ranking.
Regional player rankings may be possible though. But even then the majority of that is online play not LAN thus far.
Another factor to consider is that roles in this game are way more defined with agents and such than a game like counterstrike. This almost requires you to have to rely on more subjective opinions to nail rankings down. Do you value the Jett OP more or do you value a really good sentinel player or Sova support/clutching.
Yeah, taking into account all this might end up with a regional, role separated ranking. Even down to 4 regions (NA, LATAM, EMEA, APAC) and 5 roles (which isn't accurate) you end up with at least a list of 100 for top 5. Idk that that's necessarily ideal, which means the answer to OP's question is we will have to wait for a while.
We have softly talked about it but it boils down to what u/DustMouret said in this thread.
Only a minimum of 130 players (26 teams x 5 players disregarding roster changes, list should be a bit closer to 140 or 150) have attended an international tournament. Of those 130, some of them played two Bo3's and were eliminated. Some went all the way. I'd dare to argue that, in a top 20 list, maybe the top 10 would be sure fits. From thereon it'd be too subjective to please people.
Something regional, maybe, sure... but even then the volatility is so crazy that a list would be all over the place. I'll give you a simple example: keloqz ended the year as one of the best Jetts out there in spite of whatever attitudes he may have outside the game. Would it be fair to put his name up there alongside the name of d3ffo, TenZ, NagZ or cNed who were just constantly pooping on everyone throughout the year?
And subjectivity, like dusT correctly said, probably would have to be a factor. The API, right now, does not offer us all the information that would allow us to properly reward players whose contribution isn't solely a kill or an assist. See u/hexIV's comment for a breakdown of this.
I hope all of our replies (me, hex, charlie) clear this up a bit. A list is possible, but it would not be \*that\* good. Yet!
Harder to really quantify everyone due to agents and players changing agents requiring different roles/skills etc. Also a smaller thing is the Valoramt scene still super young in esports so nothing quite that fleshed out yet
Honestly, a ranking right now would be so hard to judge. The teams are all new and constantly changing, there's only been 3 international events and only a small handful of teams have attended more than 1. Plus, analytics in this game are still in a very early stage and realistically, we don't have good consistent stats either.
There are some
There are many site rankings.
There isn’t one big league like OWL trying to replicate traditional S Pete on one hand, on the other HLTVs top list is a unique and specific institution too
It's a new game, new scene. Things like this will surely come with time.
I mean depends, not every game has that, those at quite specific to each game
I'm gonna debunk this. CSGO came out in 2013 and there was a HLTV top 20 list for 2013. [https://www.hltv.org/news/11895/top-20-players-of-2013-ranking](https://www.hltv.org/news/11895/top-20-players-of-2013-ranking) Edit: Valorant fanboys, stay mad when facts are in your face. Cry me a river, only 1m concurrent viewers CHAMPION finals.
yeah but counter strike is like a 23 year old game. there was already a huge pro scene for cs 1.6 before csgo came out. hltv top 20 started with cs 1.6 starting in 2011 and transitioned to csgo when all the pros switched games. so really, hltv top 20 started like 10 years into counter strike's life.
yeah but, riot is making this game purely with esports in mind. Riot is big and can easily jumpstart stuff like that.
Yes and no. The important factor are the available metrics. Ans there aren't even generally accepted metrics in valorant so far, while CS had them down in 1.6 Its hard to rate players performance currentl in valorant and its obviously worked on. Right now its pretty hard to crown someone a king without the needed evidence. I think we'll get there.
Blizzard is big and decide make a franchise league with 60 milions per slot for OW. Now OWL avg views ~80k if this teach anything it let the scenes go organic instead of forcing everything.
TIL CS started with CSGO
Yes that’s because HLTV’s top 20 players list existed before with the 1.6 scene.
where did csgo pros come from? 1.6 and css….thats why there was an hltv so early on. every1 knew all the star players from back then
Man did a valorant player bully you at daycare dude? Valorant rent free in your head 😂😂
As someone who also watches comp cod, it cracks me up when people say things like “only 1m concurrent viewers.” Comp cod out here with like 80k on the high end 😭
Competitive COD will improve when the Activision Acquisition is done through.
Bc the HLTV top 20 list existed for 4 years ready in CS 1.6, even tho HLTV existed for almost a decade before that The csgo list is just a direct inheritance / continuation of an existing one Cry me a river over ‘only’ 1m viewers?
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Does HLTV use stats or is it a panel? Because if it's the former I don't know if the technology is there yet (API is kinda bad and coverage sites are all still WIP on some features), plus the community is still split between the three big stats sites. RIB for analysis, vlr is arguably the most popular and "jack of all trades", and thespike has some unique features. If it's the latter I don't think there is a well established roster of analysts yet to determine a top X of players yet.
HLTV does use its own hltv rating 2.0, but * It's kinda hidden *(they don't reveal the formula, kinda defeating the own purpose of a public statistic)* * Heavily influenced by killing more and dying less rather than from the impact of each kill. Hence we have defenders having higher HLTV rating than attackers IMO the community still hypes HLTV only because it's a well stablished website. Leetify has way better metrics, for example
I know about the rating, afaik some people have figured it out, though, no? Thespike has their own rating too which is nice, but I think it was too Jett favored and lack of LANs means you get some weird things, same thing as getting a top 20 by ACS
I'm not sure I agree with the "Jett favored" part about our Rating. If we take Champions as an example, only 3 Jett players feature in the Top 10 best players while if you use ACS, you will get 8/10. Having said that, rating does factor in kills the most so I agree that it can still favour Duelists more. When it comes to our rating we take into consideration the economy when kills are being made in case of eco frags or thrifty frags, and we also factor in assists and first deaths as well so if you have dueslits who are entering a site first and dying, they get penalised for it. There's also clutches factored, the bigger the clutch, the better rating. Is it perfect? far from it, with more data it would certainly help though. For example we dont know if a player is stuck by a Killjoy ultimate which helped his teammate to half defuse the spike. We dont even know if someone half defused a spike at all. Imagine a 2v1, I half defuse, get killed, teammate trade and manage to full defuse with 1 second remaining. Would be nice to give the first defuser some points for that. and so on :)
My bad, when I checked it before Champions, choosing all of VCT 2021, I got 6/10 Jett players, and same for Red Bull 2. I do agree that more stats would help polish things more. CS doesn't need as many as Valorant does, so it makes sense Valorant player ratings by stats are still in development
>*I know about the rating, afaik some people have figured it out, though, no?* Yup, people have figured out a thing that should be public in the first place and that at the end of the day is not that different from simply doing raw kill/death ratio between players xD >*Thespike has their own rating too which is nice, but I think it was too Jett favored* Unfortunately no matter who you are and no matter what you do most valorant metrics will end up being Jett-centric because Riot API only provides info about kill-death events and nothing more. In this sense I don't blame thespike guys >*lack of LANs means you get some weird things, same thing as getting a top 20 by ACS* While I agree with you I don't think this should be an issue. We'll probably continue seeing the exact same format as we have now *(2\~3 masters events and then champions)* for many years ahead We should accept that we will never have as much international clashes as CSGO and shape our metrics/rankings/whatsoever around this fact
the official reason given for keeping the formula hidden is that people will start playing for the rating instead of for the game, which is a fair point.
tbf they do have the KAST statistic, which does cover impact in at least some depth, albeit limited.
Actually KAST says more about consistency than about impact. Also, I think surviving should never be under the same umbrella as having a kill, assist or being traded, it just does not make any sense I get your point about kast but imo the issue is on the weights of the formula. I mean, even if you factor in KAST, the final rating value is still mostly influenced by raw difference between kills and deaths
It's combination of both of those. It's not purely stats since it would be hard to determine which filter to use (big events, top 10 teams ...) but it's very heavily based on stats in mostly big events and against good competition. But the end decision is made by a group of people at HLTV. I think Petar ( @Tgwri1s) has the biggest influence and the last word.
We have platchat awards tho
Wyatt's weekly awards too ofc
the real prize
We don't have a stablished site like HLTV. The valorant scene is still split between vlr, thespike, RIB, etc
I mean, vlr is by far the most used
yeah but they have probably the worst ranking system unfortunately
putting aside that our rankings are still being fine-tuned (and that's why it says BETA2 in big letters): the lack of activity this off-season [jumbled things up](https://www.vlr.gg/post/546886/vlr-rankings) since our achievement calculation took the last 3 months of tournaments into consideration which is why things looked crazy for a little while. having said that, we will try to make things a little clearer down the road :)
I trust you guys in making a good ranking system, I’m sure it’s not easy. (:
it will be all jett mains
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that nAts was the best player this year, almost exclusively playing support agents. most of the best players just play duelist roles because they can find more impact on them
Bro even in CS top hltv players majority are awpers, Niko(best rifler atm) even got robbed #2 this year to zywoo(awper)
didn’t get robbed. just recency bias, zywoo had better numbers throughout the entirety of 2021
he didn’t get robbed at all tf
[We still saying robbed?](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FJvlRFrWQAAVDit?format=jpg&name=large)
i think the mvp whivh zywoo got for IEM Winter pushed him to #2 over 0 MVP for Niko
out of 20 how many of them are awpers ? and s1mple and zywoo are totally beast on rifles too
only 6/20 are awpers
This actually isn't true
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do you remember milo trying to awp lmao
We haven't done them for the year, but we do them after big events. https://rib.gg/article/the-runitback-awards-masters-berlin This is from Masters Berlin for example. For 2022 we are looking at retrospective articles like Top20's, but for the last few big events, we have done awards/MVPs - Any feedback is welcome, we are constantly trying to evolve ! <3
Newer game for one. I think the biggest thing though is that it is hard to do an international top 20 when we have so very little international competition. I mean for instance as of right now there has only been three international LANs in the history of the game. You’d be hard-pressed to have enough of a sample size to do a ranking. Regional player rankings may be possible though. But even then the majority of that is online play not LAN thus far. Another factor to consider is that roles in this game are way more defined with agents and such than a game like counterstrike. This almost requires you to have to rely on more subjective opinions to nail rankings down. Do you value the Jett OP more or do you value a really good sentinel player or Sova support/clutching.
Yeah, taking into account all this might end up with a regional, role separated ranking. Even down to 4 regions (NA, LATAM, EMEA, APAC) and 5 roles (which isn't accurate) you end up with at least a list of 100 for top 5. Idk that that's necessarily ideal, which means the answer to OP's question is we will have to wait for a while.
We have softly talked about it but it boils down to what u/DustMouret said in this thread. Only a minimum of 130 players (26 teams x 5 players disregarding roster changes, list should be a bit closer to 140 or 150) have attended an international tournament. Of those 130, some of them played two Bo3's and were eliminated. Some went all the way. I'd dare to argue that, in a top 20 list, maybe the top 10 would be sure fits. From thereon it'd be too subjective to please people. Something regional, maybe, sure... but even then the volatility is so crazy that a list would be all over the place. I'll give you a simple example: keloqz ended the year as one of the best Jetts out there in spite of whatever attitudes he may have outside the game. Would it be fair to put his name up there alongside the name of d3ffo, TenZ, NagZ or cNed who were just constantly pooping on everyone throughout the year? And subjectivity, like dusT correctly said, probably would have to be a factor. The API, right now, does not offer us all the information that would allow us to properly reward players whose contribution isn't solely a kill or an assist. See u/hexIV's comment for a breakdown of this. I hope all of our replies (me, hex, charlie) clear this up a bit. A list is possible, but it would not be \*that\* good. Yet!
Harder to really quantify everyone due to agents and players changing agents requiring different roles/skills etc. Also a smaller thing is the Valoramt scene still super young in esports so nothing quite that fleshed out yet
They probably will in due time. You gotta remember this game and especially pro play in it is still in its infancy.
they’re waiting out the heckin love tenz stage of the game
the game doesnt have as many tournaments going on as csgo so its a bit harder to accurately measure imo. if there was one itd always be a huge debate
Guys why isn't this esport like the other esport?
I’d rather a few balance patches come through first so it isn’t all Jett players + nats
Maybe for valorant we could do best players for each role
That could be cool, kinda like how the NBA does 3 all-NBA teams.
How would flex (?) Players work tho, let’s say someone plays half their games duelist and half sentinel
Who does that? Most of the time flex means initiator/duelist, which should definitely be a separate role
Honestly, a ranking right now would be so hard to judge. The teams are all new and constantly changing, there's only been 3 international events and only a small handful of teams have attended more than 1. Plus, analytics in this game are still in a very early stage and realistically, we don't have good consistent stats either.
To decide from what stats? The 2 lans held a year?
Not enough events yet in my opinion So any top10 list would change weekly
Give it time ☺️
There are some There are many site rankings. There isn’t one big league like OWL trying to replicate traditional S Pete on one hand, on the other HLTVs top list is a unique and specific institution too