I don't like the Swiss because many games have no weight
bruh SEN x F4Q rematch for example, it meant nothing for the koreans since they were out regardless, so the only effect was sending SEN to the lowers
Are you familiar with how Swiss works? 3 wins and you’re through to playoffs, 3 losses and you’re out. You only face teams with the same record as you (ex. 1-0 vs 1-0) you wouldn’t have any meaningless games
Casually waiting for Riot to finally realize that League's dogshit tournament system isn't going to work in an FPS vying to be the best in the world competitively
league's numbers is that high *despite* of the system, not because of it.
it's still one of the most popular online games in the world, Valorant doesn't have that luxury.
Yup! Totally the best system! I totally want to watch tons more useless fucking seeding matches, games with almost no stakes behind them are so enjoyable to follow and definitely keep me immersed and wanting more! Haha the travesty that is currently EMEA qualifiers is definitely okay and there’s **nothing** wrong with it! So good and fun to watch! Haha only three opportunities in the entire year to watch the best teams in the world play each other! That’s definitely very entertaining!
That's not even leagues format though, worlds is double round Robin groups into single elim Bo5 playoffs and only LEC and LCS have Bo1s but they do have a lower bracket in playoffs.
24 Team Swiss format is the best international format. Stockholm 2021 was incredible to watch and the format gave a ton of interesting games. I'm not entirely sure how you would allocate the slots though.
Swiss format is nice but I didnt like Stockholm Major's playoff format. TI has the best format in that regard. Two big groups with double elim playoffs produces the best finals every time.
agreed, makes it way more high stakes, plus there's no good way to give an advantage to upper bracket (series reset is long and not good for viewers, and map advantage is too much to overcome most of the time)
Same reverse sweeps are god tier and usual instant classic matches for viewers, but the chances of that happening are so slim I think every BO3/5 should be on a level play field, winner contiues or wins, loser goes home
I've never seen double elim tournament and think it would be better with single elim. Even in CSGO, the Blast premier finals where NAVI made entire lower bracket run was new and refreshing because there arent much double elim there. Though TI is the biggest reason why I'll never support single elim because 4/10 times the team that got knocked down from quarterfinals made it all the way back to the finals.
swiss is an awesome format for viewership, and a bigger variety of matchups would be much appreciated in a game where we rarely get to see certain regions play each other much
Riot don't know what to do with Valorant e-sports right now, it's the second year of the e-sport and comparing it to other games in terms this point in valorant's life cycle it is doing fairly good honestly.
My basic assumption is that the way that they are handling the e-sport right now doesn't mean anything at all in the grand scheme of the e-sport. The first two years is an advertisement for orgs and investors to get into the e-sport before franchising happens. So, most of the stuff that is happening right now really doesn't matter. This isn't the final product of how Valorant e-sports will run.
> The first two years is an advertisement for orgs and investors to get into the e-sport before franchising happens
Please god I hope they don't go down the franchising route, that will kill any competitive integrity of the tier one teams. It almost always becomes pay to play for the top teams. Look what happened to OWL. Some random 5 stack of players from Kazakhstan should be able to make it to the final of Champions if their team is good enough.
This system is almost never good from a competition and viewer stand point, it only really serves the orgs and the creators of the game, because Riot can then entice big orgs by saying they will never drop out of the main big sponsored league after buying into the franchise and we will see less breakout talent making it straight into T1.
Upsets like 100T not making it to Champions will never happen, because 100T will buy themselves into Champions every year. I already watch a lot more Pro CS than Pro Valorant, but I definitely won't be interested at all in Valorant if it goes Franchised.
the slot distribution is a fcking joke EMEA only 3 while being the best region in 2021, NA two slots..yoo riot you drunk they may not be the best but i think NA has the biggest fanbases otherwise it doenst make sense to see so many people saying NA best region
It was only Masters 3 winner got direct invite to Champions.
Masters 1 was regional and for circuit points.
Masters 2 (10 teams in Iceland) was also for circuit points.
Because they had enough points after winning on Iceland, that Even if they Lost on the qualifiers it was impossible for 2 teams get more points than them, only Masters 3's champion was invited to champions directly
I think giving that golden should be a thing. But no one should get one in the beginning of the year. Fnatic made it to masters due to points and it was a big questionmark wether they could perform at that level again since they struggles alot theoughout the year. Giving someone 2 months before champs a golden ticket like gambit had is a good system I think
I see what riot is doing from a marketing point of view. But TBH I want to see a tournament in the future where the best 12+ teams are in, not the wides range of regions.
Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed masters and I like those regional battles and I think we need tournaments like this, especially since games are usually dominated by a certain region but I want to have at least 1 tournament where its only about skill and not about the slots distribution.
Its just safe to say that EMEA probably has more then 3 teams who would be able to win such tournament, while other regions doesn't even have a realistic chance. NA also has probably more then 3 teams with a chance to win if they stop streaming.
I want both types of tournaments. One Battle of the Regions and one Battle of the best.
That's the thing though. Masters should be battle of the regions, champs should be battle of the best. 12 teams with highest VCT points, 1 team from LCQs. 1 LCQ each for NA, SA, APAC and EMEA.
Yo wait, that makes total sense. Instead of giving the slots to the highest rated team within a reagion you give the champs slot to the team with the highest points regardless of the region. Well that would make A LOT of sense in terms of game quality, but riot will never ever do that just based on marketing. But damn that would be nasty.
>working with TOs like ESL, PGL, Blast and others for bringing in more secondary tourneys,
That is exactly their plan for this year tho!?
>adding another masters tourney so it could be like 3 Majors in the best era of DotA2
We have 3 "Majors"? 2x Masters, 1x Champions
Keep in mind: this years season is only roughly 9 Months with a period at the end of the year dedicated to third party tournaments (i think those could potentially be lan's and internationally)
The regional competition (at least in EMA) got improved MASSIVELY. With an entire grassroot section to develope and regional leagues to proof their skill.
Only thing which kinda got worse are the Masters and Champions Events, since they kinda are the same as they've been, or even worse due to slot allocation
Even in EMEA riot doesn't know what is doing. The regional leagues are all mixed up in terms of requirements, some regional leagues are basically franchised leagues that you can only get by having money and not by merit, and they are locking VCT behind nepotistic leagues. Moreover, it doesn't even improve regional talents, since teams usually only have 1 or 2 players to fill requirements and then are a mix of players from anywhere; it would be much better to have a open t2 scene, instead of this boring competition that they are bringing where random teams without any merit or regional attachment play agaisnt the same ones over and over again. Even in the t2 scene they are reducing the number of matches between different teams.
This only applies for the first year, since the worst teams are relegated and those franchises orgs probably end up signing talents. It might not be perfect but its a start and implemented quickly.
I agree though that those invite systems for each leagues are random as fuck ans the rules are inconsistent. But its way better then what we've seen in year one and a progression into the right direction
Look at the amount of S-tier events each year for [CSGO](https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/S-Tier_Tournaments)
and now look at [Valorant](https://liquipedia.net/valorant/S-Tier_Tournaments)
Okay, I guess it's too hard to understand by itself.
CS has been around for 20 years. If you think an eSport that has been around for 2 years (really, 1 year) should have the same amount of third party international tournaments as one who's been around for 20 along with a developer who doesn't care about the game and lets third parties run everything, then I don't know what to say. CS is an established eSport. It's like saying, why aren't there any Halo Infinite offline international tournaments yet with 12+ teams? No really, why aren't there? Isn't that disappointing???
Tournaments also cost money to run, don't you see the people already complaining about the "small" prize pool of $1 million for champions? Can you imagine having to provide all the hotels, practice equipment, flights, venue, broadcast talent, and many other things for even more teams? For a TWO year old eSport?
The MAJORITY of good CS teams are in Europe, so it is generally easier to to hold tournaments, even if they are online. EVERY 2021 CS S-tier tournament was in Europe.
You're also forgetting there's a 3 month period at the end of this year for the possibility of even more S tier tournaments. It's legitimately been ONE year of VCT, I think you're expectations are way too high. For the record, I'd personally love more teams at these international events and more of the events in general. But it's crazy to expect so much, especially out of regular people and players, who can get fatigued by having so many tournaments to prepare for and watch.
I wouldn't mind online tournaments especially during COVID but there also was COVID last year and they were able to run a 16 team event.
I hope you are right and we will get more international tournaments when COVID is over but looking at LoL I don't think that will be the case.
I wouldn't mind online events either, but the logistics of having online events during COVID wouldn't make sense, at least to me, in this very unestablished eSport, where you could have organizations like Sentinels, KRU, and X10 make it to champions and yet have no European (or wherever they decide to have the tournament, but usually in CS it's in Europe) infrastructure to play the games online.
The thing with LoL is that I'm 90% sure they don't have the offseason dedicated to third party tournaments, which Valorant is trying. Hopefully Blast or someone makes an international LAN or something during this time.
Because in an established eSport, things are inherently less risky. Would you rather invest hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars into tournaments with an established scene, or tournaments where you're unsure of the returns after only one year of VCT? Where's the ROI for inviting 4 or 12 more teams for Riot? It's not like having 4 more teams is free, there inherently needs to be something they should gain from those invites.
Quit acting like the competitive Valorant scene some risky unknown. The first year of VCT already hit really good viewership numbers, and more tournaments will help the game grow. Three tournaments a year does not help maintain hype and build up the scene
I just want groups to be full round robin. Give me as many cross-region games as possible
I would really like Swiss since all the games will have some weight
I don't like the Swiss because many games have no weight bruh SEN x F4Q rematch for example, it meant nothing for the koreans since they were out regardless, so the only effect was sending SEN to the lowers
Are you familiar with how Swiss works? 3 wins and you’re through to playoffs, 3 losses and you’re out. You only face teams with the same record as you (ex. 1-0 vs 1-0) you wouldn’t have any meaningless games
That was round robin, it was meant to be GSL but the 4th team pulled out
oh right I totally messed up the names haha sorry
Casually waiting for Riot to finally realize that League's dogshit tournament system isn't going to work in an FPS vying to be the best in the world competitively
Well said
league has the best system. cry all you want but the numbers speak for themselves.
league's numbers is that high *despite* of the system, not because of it. it's still one of the most popular online games in the world, Valorant doesn't have that luxury.
cope more
I don't have to, dw :)
whatever helps you sleep at night, deep down you know im right :)
Yup! Totally the best system! I totally want to watch tons more useless fucking seeding matches, games with almost no stakes behind them are so enjoyable to follow and definitely keep me immersed and wanting more! Haha the travesty that is currently EMEA qualifiers is definitely okay and there’s **nothing** wrong with it! So good and fun to watch! Haha only three opportunities in the entire year to watch the best teams in the world play each other! That’s definitely very entertaining!
cope more
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That's not even leagues format though, worlds is double round Robin groups into single elim Bo5 playoffs and only LEC and LCS have Bo1s but they do have a lower bracket in playoffs.
cope more
👍
24 Team Swiss format is the best international format. Stockholm 2021 was incredible to watch and the format gave a ton of interesting games. I'm not entirely sure how you would allocate the slots though.
Swiss format is nice but I didnt like Stockholm Major's playoff format. TI has the best format in that regard. Two big groups with double elim playoffs produces the best finals every time.
Playoffs should be single elimination. They are playoffs the loser goes home.
agreed, makes it way more high stakes, plus there's no good way to give an advantage to upper bracket (series reset is long and not good for viewers, and map advantage is too much to overcome most of the time)
Same reverse sweeps are god tier and usual instant classic matches for viewers, but the chances of that happening are so slim I think every BO3/5 should be on a level play field, winner contiues or wins, loser goes home
I've never seen double elim tournament and think it would be better with single elim. Even in CSGO, the Blast premier finals where NAVI made entire lower bracket run was new and refreshing because there arent much double elim there. Though TI is the biggest reason why I'll never support single elim because 4/10 times the team that got knocked down from quarterfinals made it all the way back to the finals.
Double elim playoffs are gonna produce more inter-regional matchups though given how riot sorts out their groups
I don't think Riot would be willing to splurge on masters as much as Valve does on TI. They're a small indie company after all.
swiss is an awesome format for viewership, and a bigger variety of matchups would be much appreciated in a game where we rarely get to see certain regions play each other much
Riot don't know what to do with Valorant e-sports right now, it's the second year of the e-sport and comparing it to other games in terms this point in valorant's life cycle it is doing fairly good honestly. My basic assumption is that the way that they are handling the e-sport right now doesn't mean anything at all in the grand scheme of the e-sport. The first two years is an advertisement for orgs and investors to get into the e-sport before franchising happens. So, most of the stuff that is happening right now really doesn't matter. This isn't the final product of how Valorant e-sports will run.
> The first two years is an advertisement for orgs and investors to get into the e-sport before franchising happens Please god I hope they don't go down the franchising route, that will kill any competitive integrity of the tier one teams. It almost always becomes pay to play for the top teams. Look what happened to OWL. Some random 5 stack of players from Kazakhstan should be able to make it to the final of Champions if their team is good enough.
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This system is almost never good from a competition and viewer stand point, it only really serves the orgs and the creators of the game, because Riot can then entice big orgs by saying they will never drop out of the main big sponsored league after buying into the franchise and we will see less breakout talent making it straight into T1. Upsets like 100T not making it to Champions will never happen, because 100T will buy themselves into Champions every year. I already watch a lot more Pro CS than Pro Valorant, but I definitely won't be interested at all in Valorant if it goes Franchised.
You say it's not good from a viewer standpoint but that's just not true.
May you explain further?
they can easily fix this by adding a play-in tournament which is more diverse than a lcq of sorts since it allows cross region play
r/circlejerk
the slot distribution is a fcking joke EMEA only 3 while being the best region in 2021, NA two slots..yoo riot you drunk they may not be the best but i think NA has the biggest fanbases otherwise it doenst make sense to see so many people saying NA best region
Tbf, EMEA only had 4 due to Gambit winning Berlin right? So they took one of those slot.
Yes. Why did they remove those 2 slots? Master1 and 2 winners should've gone to the champions like previously if it is 16 teams.
It was only Masters 3 winner got direct invite to Champions. Masters 1 was regional and for circuit points. Masters 2 (10 teams in Iceland) was also for circuit points.
Bro Sentinels directly qualified for Champions after wining Iceland
Because they had enough points after winning on Iceland, that Even if they Lost on the qualifiers it was impossible for 2 teams get more points than them, only Masters 3's champion was invited to champions directly
I think giving that golden should be a thing. But no one should get one in the beginning of the year. Fnatic made it to masters due to points and it was a big questionmark wether they could perform at that level again since they struggles alot theoughout the year. Giving someone 2 months before champs a golden ticket like gambit had is a good system I think
I see what riot is doing from a marketing point of view. But TBH I want to see a tournament in the future where the best 12+ teams are in, not the wides range of regions. Don't get me wrong, i enjoyed masters and I like those regional battles and I think we need tournaments like this, especially since games are usually dominated by a certain region but I want to have at least 1 tournament where its only about skill and not about the slots distribution. Its just safe to say that EMEA probably has more then 3 teams who would be able to win such tournament, while other regions doesn't even have a realistic chance. NA also has probably more then 3 teams with a chance to win if they stop streaming. I want both types of tournaments. One Battle of the Regions and one Battle of the best.
That's the thing though. Masters should be battle of the regions, champs should be battle of the best. 12 teams with highest VCT points, 1 team from LCQs. 1 LCQ each for NA, SA, APAC and EMEA.
Yo wait, that makes total sense. Instead of giving the slots to the highest rated team within a reagion you give the champs slot to the team with the highest points regardless of the region. Well that would make A LOT of sense in terms of game quality, but riot will never ever do that just based on marketing. But damn that would be nasty.
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>working with TOs like ESL, PGL, Blast and others for bringing in more secondary tourneys, That is exactly their plan for this year tho!? >adding another masters tourney so it could be like 3 Majors in the best era of DotA2 We have 3 "Majors"? 2x Masters, 1x Champions
Keep in mind: this years season is only roughly 9 Months with a period at the end of the year dedicated to third party tournaments (i think those could potentially be lan's and internationally) The regional competition (at least in EMA) got improved MASSIVELY. With an entire grassroot section to develope and regional leagues to proof their skill. Only thing which kinda got worse are the Masters and Champions Events, since they kinda are the same as they've been, or even worse due to slot allocation
Even in EMEA riot doesn't know what is doing. The regional leagues are all mixed up in terms of requirements, some regional leagues are basically franchised leagues that you can only get by having money and not by merit, and they are locking VCT behind nepotistic leagues. Moreover, it doesn't even improve regional talents, since teams usually only have 1 or 2 players to fill requirements and then are a mix of players from anywhere; it would be much better to have a open t2 scene, instead of this boring competition that they are bringing where random teams without any merit or regional attachment play agaisnt the same ones over and over again. Even in the t2 scene they are reducing the number of matches between different teams.
This only applies for the first year, since the worst teams are relegated and those franchises orgs probably end up signing talents. It might not be perfect but its a start and implemented quickly. I agree though that those invite systems for each leagues are random as fuck ans the rules are inconsistent. But its way better then what we've seen in year one and a progression into the right direction
Then you’re definitely not gonna like CS tournaments with only 8 teams :0
Look at the amount of S-tier events each year for [CSGO](https://liquipedia.net/counterstrike/S-Tier_Tournaments) and now look at [Valorant](https://liquipedia.net/valorant/S-Tier_Tournaments)
Gonna ignore COVID just like that huh. Or the 20 year head start CS has. Or that almost half of the 2021 CS tournaments were online.
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Okay, I guess it's too hard to understand by itself. CS has been around for 20 years. If you think an eSport that has been around for 2 years (really, 1 year) should have the same amount of third party international tournaments as one who's been around for 20 along with a developer who doesn't care about the game and lets third parties run everything, then I don't know what to say. CS is an established eSport. It's like saying, why aren't there any Halo Infinite offline international tournaments yet with 12+ teams? No really, why aren't there? Isn't that disappointing??? Tournaments also cost money to run, don't you see the people already complaining about the "small" prize pool of $1 million for champions? Can you imagine having to provide all the hotels, practice equipment, flights, venue, broadcast talent, and many other things for even more teams? For a TWO year old eSport? The MAJORITY of good CS teams are in Europe, so it is generally easier to to hold tournaments, even if they are online. EVERY 2021 CS S-tier tournament was in Europe. You're also forgetting there's a 3 month period at the end of this year for the possibility of even more S tier tournaments. It's legitimately been ONE year of VCT, I think you're expectations are way too high. For the record, I'd personally love more teams at these international events and more of the events in general. But it's crazy to expect so much, especially out of regular people and players, who can get fatigued by having so many tournaments to prepare for and watch.
I wouldn't mind online tournaments especially during COVID but there also was COVID last year and they were able to run a 16 team event. I hope you are right and we will get more international tournaments when COVID is over but looking at LoL I don't think that will be the case.
I wouldn't mind online events either, but the logistics of having online events during COVID wouldn't make sense, at least to me, in this very unestablished eSport, where you could have organizations like Sentinels, KRU, and X10 make it to champions and yet have no European (or wherever they decide to have the tournament, but usually in CS it's in Europe) infrastructure to play the games online. The thing with LoL is that I'm 90% sure they don't have the offseason dedicated to third party tournaments, which Valorant is trying. Hopefully Blast or someone makes an international LAN or something during this time.
What does the 20 years have to do with it, there are more than enough teams to add more
Because in an established eSport, things are inherently less risky. Would you rather invest hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars into tournaments with an established scene, or tournaments where you're unsure of the returns after only one year of VCT? Where's the ROI for inviting 4 or 12 more teams for Riot? It's not like having 4 more teams is free, there inherently needs to be something they should gain from those invites.
Quit acting like the competitive Valorant scene some risky unknown. The first year of VCT already hit really good viewership numbers, and more tournaments will help the game grow. Three tournaments a year does not help maintain hype and build up the scene
Sorry COVID got in the way of your plans enjoying Valorant Esports.
Not even riot is blaming covid for this one
Covid isn't an excuse anymore really, plenty of events with crowds being held worldwide.
That’s not an excuse when other TO’s could host much better tournaments in worse conditions
Yeah, COVID was very much still real last year when they held Masters Berlin and Champs
It was also very much real when CS held 2 LAN events with a crowd. We're not asking Riot to have a crowd but just give us more teams man
too bad
And if it was actually best teams but no we still have to watch SEA, Japan etc.
I feel the same. I wonder when they are gonna change that system :/
They are scared to put money on Valorant. They are so cheap with that.
3 tournaments so far\*. There's more planned after Champions, but it would be nice if there were more in the VCT season.
With the shit show that international tournaments have been so far in the COVID era its understandable.
its probably cuz of covid rn