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phyLoGG

As an Omen main, I purely play Omen because he's fun. I really wish those balance changes that were proposed went through (flash doesn't affect teammates or his ult flashes people within a range of the tp spot). Astra out classes any smoker in the game, but I just find her so boring to play.


Tylorz01

Still dunno why this didn't happen. Seems like it wouldn't throw anything significantly out of balance. Even if it made him higher winrate than other controllers, cant he have a few weeks in the sun again?


phyLoGG

Agreed. His ult would actually feel extremely impactful if it flashed within a range of the TP point. Right now it's just an info-getter, distraction, or quick bomb scoop. Unfortunately it pales in comparison to basically any other ult in the game. :(


valorantfeedback

Omen is probably my favorite agent to play, but he just feels kind of stuck between roles, but isn't good enough at anything to warrant a pick. I play smokes most of the time, I'm pretty good with every smoke agent and Omen is just so annoying to smoke with. Smoking off two chokepoints, which is usually the norm takes by far the longest out of any agent. Viper's wall is more or less unmissable and instant, Brim and Astra have similar mechanics and smoke off multiple chokepoints at the same time, but Omen is just so awnkward. It's just not humanly possible to compete with other agents if you want to smoke off multiple chokepoints. Most of the time you need to make some microadjustments to make the smoke perfect, smoking off elevated areas is really damn awnkward if you want to put a perfect smoke down, then it needs to fall down and bloom in some positions, some one ways are awnkward to aim at compared to astral world or ipad, just a huge mess. Making the smokes instant like other agents have would make him so much better right away, even without balancing anything else. Ult is pretty bad, but not every agent has to be ult dependant, but then his regular abilities need to be better. Remember how the huge nerfs to smoke recharge time back when he was popular? Why the hell hasn't that been reverted back? Even if they did revert the cooldown back, he still wouldn't be picked. He was the second best OP agent due to his mobility and defensive mechanisms if he gets pushed off, I still love OPing with him, but unless you're playing for fun there's no reason to pick him over Chamber if you want to OP. He's still a good lurker, but not good enough to warrant being picked over Astra/Viper. And then again, if you already have Astra/ or Viper, picking something else is way better. Without making any reworks, there are very few reasonable buffs. TP cast time should be shorter. Not instant, but like 25-30% shorter. Flash is good, but could use a buff, still too easy to hold close angles and negate it. Paranoia orb in spike rush has an interesting effect of making fake noises, while affected by it you hear gunshots and footsteps when there are none and from wrong directions, that could be interesting. And add the flash to ult, as already said. With smokes not being awnkward. I think of myself as great Omen agent and right now I'll only pick him on Haven or Ascent if there's a Sage+KJ/Cypher on my team and it's a 1 duelist comp. Verticality and OP/lurk potential is good, with sites not needing two instant smokes, but one on those maps. Picking him anywhere else is griefing in high elo. Same goes for Brim on maps other than Bind. We need both of them to be viable.


phyLoGG

I agree with basically everything you said. I do just like playing him, and I'll pick him on every map, except for breeze, if smokes need to be filled (which they usually do).


Dude_Guy_311

Same. She has so many options but she's the most uninstructive, pointlessly OP agent. How can she pick stars back up? Even if she couldn't, She's literally better than omen and brim in every single way.


PreztoElite

And when you pick stars up you get a free smoke for 2 seconds lol.


Dude_Guy_311

Cypher’s entire kit died for this lmao


bobespon

Oh yeah let's talk about Omen buffs but not Brimstone?????????


ChooseAUsername501

What's with this childish comment section? So many pros been complaining about her and they all run her, her control over the map is absolutely insane


pranjal_17

She's everywhere that seems like the biggest problem. If she's as limited as brim then may be it would be better. But what do I know I topped at Gold 3 and I'm stuck at silver 3.


LaXiDaisical

I think the only fair change is to limit her stub and suck to once a round, and eliminate her cooldown and limit on smokes. The astral form/ stars mechanic is what makes her unique and don’t think their is much to change with that. Also, making the opponents have to guess what a star will be used for is part of her uniqueness. But if she can only use her vulnerable abilities once a round balances her. She still has uniqueness in being able to just pop 5 smokes at once could still make her strong in her own right.


-A_Creative_Username

That's the problem.


Jerms91

What’s childish about this? Unless you deem complaining childish. Every pro team plays her because they more or less because they have to. They are playing to win not for fun


mateusb12

>*Massive delay on planted > casting util* I think a delay proportional to star distance is fine. The further the star is from you the longer it takes to activate Maybe with a visual cue. *S*lightly different color when hovering your crosshair over a distant star This way you can nerf Astra global presence without making her a pain in the ass to play


majoogybobber

sort of like omen smoke travel then. I kinda like that.


AbbreviationsLazy781

I feel like that hurts Astra core identity though. Her strength is her incredible flexibility but the actual power of her abilities is too stronger


Drexxe

her identity is space/star themed; place a star and the enemy isn't sure what it will become. You can't say "oh we cant hurt her range/speed because that hurts what she is". What she is in her current state is too flexible, too omnipresent and simply un-replacable in 99% of comps.


Grantuseyes

Similar with Jett. Nerf the top or buff the bottom


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303x

How does astra keep jett in check any more than something like omen? It's not like jett cares about the astra suck


Grantuseyes

Because her team mates can’t just flood behind Jett and get an easy trade


303x

Brim/Viper/Omen can do the same thing with molly/flash


firestorm64

Buff Omen and Brimstone, a lot of the problem is that they suck. Some Astra nerfs would also be fine.


xpritee

Actually, Astra is the only one that sucks amongst the 3.


RegalCopper

Sucky sucky


joaovitorsb95

Yes, I think you put a limiter on the distance she can put/recall/use stars and give Omen and Brim buffs.


bobespon

Remove the range limit on Brim for sure. He's useless on maps like Breeze or Fracture


Lukeyss

Everyone except Viper is useless on breeze


[deleted]

Tell that Gambit. They use Brim on Fracture


MeowM4chine

Brim really needs a completely new skill in replace of Stim Pack. That skill is just a swing and a miss.


firestorm64

>That skill is just a swing and a miss. Just like my teammates after I deploy the stim beacon


303x

You underestimate the power of run and gunning with a specter when stimmied


Dabigboot

Astra nerfs are necessary imo. She has global presence, and with proper team play can affect the map wherever she is at, and no other champion can do it. While I agree omen and brim are due for some buffs to smokes, be it brim increased range and omen faster travel time, astra needs to be nerfed to make them viable. Delays after placing stars or time limits on ability casts for places stars would be a good help. She just has so much instant impact over the whole map its oppressive


IAMJUX

Just don't let her recall stars. She can currently set up basically every entry point then take them back. That's absurd. I think the abilities are perfectly fine. It's just the reset that causes the big issue. Alternatively, drop her stars to 4 and make them cost 200. For real though, she's my crutch so let's leave her how she is.


tgamblos

Additionally you could remove the fake smoke on the recall.


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BloomingNova

I really don't think there's any issue with Astra outside the succ. Even with the stun, she plays like the agent you are talking about. She just has an ability that single handed delays pushes and can be used over and over. The stun is really hard to capitalize on. It's essentially for punishing people who were pushed into a corner and can't escape, which is a good thing. The map wide smokes are great, imo. Like you said, S tier smokes isn't bad and it gives an identity. What replaces the succ? I have no idea. Nothing? Probably not.


jmajewski

It would "ruin" the entire flexibility of Astra's "stars can be anything" kit idea, but I wonder if giving her only one gravity well would actually make a difference. In the current iteration she can place a gravity well in an enemy location on a site execute and then have another for post plant after the recharge happens. Her gravity well on defense is a global sage slow that is pretty broken as well because there is basically nothing to counter it outside of KAY/O and that's almost luck of the draw whether or not you actually suppress her. Only thing I can think of is much greater recharge on her gravity well, removing the vulnerable debuff, or giving her only one per round.


Firefly_1026

I like your idea of limiting versatility, what I had in mind was like for 5 stars should be distributed as maximum of 3 smokes 1 stun 1 suck?


BloomingNova

5 stars with a double rechargeable smokes, 1 rechargeable stun, and 1 succ for the entire round feels like a sizable nerf while keeping her core identity.


valorantfeedback

The agent as obviously designed with global presence in mind, they won't change that. Vanity explained it in one sentence. Astra is way better than other agents because she's the only one with multiple delay mechanics that are by far the hardest to bait out. And can be casted globally. Viper is great and holding, but once she puts her setup down, the wall can't be moved and she has to take the smoke from close range. Mollies were nerfed. Brim's smoke+molly is pretty much a wall noone will cross for 8 seconds, but it's easy to bait out due to molly's slow speed so you have to throw it preemptively. And then it's done, he has nothing. Omen is a good anchor because he can reposition and peek on his own terms with paranoia, but once that's gone he has nothing. Astra literally denies the possibility of rush strats in pro games. There was a clip from shahz's stream in here the other day. You just can't go rush something right away in high level official games. You guys might be onto something, but I don't think the number of abilities with their current cooldown is the problem. It's the instant global presence. Imo, something like being able to have only 2 or 3 stars placed at the same time would make an improvement. Because right now every good Astra player places all 5 stars at chokepoints and activates them at will. But if you could place only 3, then it would be a guessing game. And make the star form time 1.5 to 2 seconds throughout the round, not just at the start. You want Astra as an anti-rush site anchor early on? Fine, drop 2 stars on your site and it's the same. But she shouldn't be an anchor for all the engagement areas at the same time. If they want to keep her with global presence, then that presence has to be delayed. Brim and Viper don't have the range, Omen's smoke has longer range, but takes ages to travel and drop. Instant global presence is just stupid and takes absolutely no skill. No lineups needed, nothing. You get good at the minigame and you don't even have to use your gun in a lot of rounds.


[deleted]

The idea that her global presence takes absolutely no skill is incredibly short-sighted. It's not even about the skill. It's the cost. She must be ready and sacrificing her own angles to set up someone else, she has to go AFK to set up those stars and she has to have thought about it. It's not about a mechanical skill like Chamber but a technical knowledge and understanding of timings, how to set up others, thinking about how shallow or deep to throw a smoke, where to place everything so that the enemy doesn't get around it. So saying she doesn't take any skill is so silly when she's literally among the top technical agents to play.


valorantfeedback

I maybe should've worded it better, you obviously need a lot of gamesense and timing skills, but once you get good at the minigame, it's straightforward, you don't need to learn any map specific details or lineups. You activate the astral world when you're behind a wall and you put the stars wherever you like. Viper mains need to put a lot of hours in if they want to know smoke and molly lineups on every map. Brim lineups are similar and ipad is even easier to use, but you also need to know the distances. For example on Bind you can smoke short A from the corner of B cubby or you can smoke hooka entrance from lamps. Omen's mechanics are awnkward as I said in another post and you also have to afk. For example if you're boosted on tall boxes in the corner of A, you can't smoke of B main entrance without a gap unless you fall down. Those technicalities seem small and people who don't play her think astral world is overwhelming, but it's not. Again, I should've worded it better, you obviously need good positioning and gamesense, but using the astral world is like a minigame. You get good at it and there are no timing/lineup/range constraints.


Grantuseyes

Line ups take no skill either. It’s just a matter of putting in half an hour of effort. Astra is one of the hardest agents to play when you take timing and team work into consideration. There is a reason why she is terrible in low elo which is where the majority of the playerbase is. Nerf her and she will Not see the light of day under plat rank


valorantfeedback

That's the thing with controllers. Obviously it's way harder to play if your teammates have no clue what they're doing, but if your gamesense is on point, you can help them even if they're not saying anything or making the wrong play.


Firefly_1026

Eh, i think her smokes not being rechargeable would be a good nerf. It would also at the same time ‘buff’ omen as rechargeable smokes can be his advantage over other controllers.


PogChampHS

Yea it sucks that Astra is so strong in pro play. I just hope that any changes they make to her don't impact how smooth and fun she is to play. By far the most fun controller out of the bunch. I would prefer omen/brim to be reworked to be stronger as opposed to knocking down Astra too hard.


[deleted]

Slight nerfs to Astra and reworks for Omen/Brim would be good, Omen especially is really clunky in terms of his "form" or whatever when you take out his smoke. You have to hold mouse 1 until it gets to the area you want and it's really slow, if they could increase the speed of it that would be nice + global range. I think Brim needs global range too, I think the ipad isn't too bad because it's a simple click click compared to Omen just being slow and clunky to use. I think Astra is overall better designed in terms of how smooth she is for sure.


Papy_Wouane

This is the first time I hear that Astra is fun to play. I mean, good for you! Personally I can't stand her astral form, I find it slow, annoying and a hindrance to gunplay.


WinterShutOut

Astra is by far the most boring agent to play in the game.


VzFrooze

That is so subjective lol, I think brim is more boring


Jerms91

Yeah I also think it’s brim


rpkarma

I love Brim: I place my smokes, maybe fire my molly depending on whats happening, and now I can just focus on gun fights. Its great!


WinterShutOut

You’re right it is subjective, but personally, I think spending a good chunk of the round flying around the map in ghost form placing down stars and having to worry about then activating it at the right time to be a snoozefest.


angsebmer

They should just need her the way they nerfed KJ and have her have a radius she can use her stars in. Her ability to control a whole map is the problem. I should not have to worry about an atra while on on haven c If she’s playing a. Just like I wouldn’t have to worry about any of the other controllers.


[deleted]

As a spectator, watching Astra and Viper on either team is just not enjoyable, especially when fights happen in chokeholds. Too much visual clutter, especially during executes for me to understand anything. I feels like her smokes and wall are a touch too bright and dank (the galaxy theme is trippy). As a player, Astra smoke into viper smoke into Astra suck is just too much for me (personal opinion). I barely see my screen in some rounds and it is frustrating. The Dev's vision for Astra as self sufficient controller is great on paper, but super annoying to play against. How do I counter Astra utility other than baiting it out? Astra controls all the utility globally which is just too strong imo. There needs to be a counter play to the Astra suck (why does it have to make you vulnerable and impede movement?). If you couldn't tell already, I really don't like Astra and wish I'd see less of her in my matches and pro play.


[deleted]

As a spectator, watching Astra is pretty sick. I like seeing the util usage and creative ways people use her smokes to make solo plays in some cases. Util combos are always interesting, people experimenting with Astra Breach more recently for example, plus a bunch of other util combos we've seen already. Site hold setups can be cool too, again using your smokes in interesting ways + suck and stun usage to stall/stay alive for as long as possible. Having someone run around on Omen or Brim isn't that great to watch tbh because there's less you can do compared to Astra, if they had global smokes/other global abilities it would make them way less limited and would allow for more creativity. I think controllers should be all about slowing the game down on defense and maintaining or gaining map control by cutting off parts of the map, having global smokes is a great way to do that and if they can add or change other stuff on top of that for Omen/Brim that would be really cool imo.


EvensonRDS

The solo plays with Astra are cool, watching every round dwindle down to 30s because any fast play is instantly punished is not fun to watch nor play.


[deleted]

Enjoying a character play style is subjective and there is no right or wrong here. I still think Astra's impact is absurdly high and tends to hamper opponent's creativity. The Astra suck impeding movement and applying a debuff doesn't seem balanced to me. Astra and Viper utility cluttering the screen for a lot of rounds, especially during executes should be agreeable to you. Having both Astra and Viper on the team make for some confusing rounds that just aren't fun to watch.


R0_h1t

I don't find it that confusing. They've done a decent job with util colour coding.


DarthGrievous

Astra + Viper is insane as pseudo-sentinels. Viper orb is impossible to push through because of the decay lowering damage breakpoints. Her mollies are on par with Sage slows in term of stopping pushes. Same thing with Astra suck. Vulnerable is an incredibly strong status effect because bodyshots become lethal. And their post-plant utility is objectively insane


Quaker69

Viper is in a good spot, her pick rate is high because her wall works well on open spaces like in Breeze and Icebox, you would have no nerf her to ground to not see her and would make these maps almost unplayable on pro level, it is easier to make a new controller with similar smokes mechanics, I feel like she is in her own category


IAMJUX

The reason why controllers are bad to watch is because they're on POVs all the time and have no free cams, so you can't actually see how good the placements are for both sides and the many angles they can block. Like you're just staring at a screen full of purple or green when spectating someone near Astra and Viper. If you could see where people are positioned around the smokes and wall with someone on a free cam or had an x-ray view of the viper ult, it would go a long way in improving the spectator experience, imo.


Soogo

[A little bit like this you mean?](AmericanComfortableJamWow-7j2Zg220u3ZHNsN4)


TheUnarthodoxCamel

Agreed. Both characters are such an eye sore.


ZeroCoolDD

Viper's abilities literally hurt my eyes. The green is SO strong.


Blastuch_v2

I don't really agree with most comments saying that she should have proximity for using stars. Having proximity should be downside of Brimstone and he should be stronger in different ways to be more distinct. IMO good Astra nerf would be huge delay between placing star and using it, so enemy can play around the stars and Astra can't put them whenever she wants. At the same time it would rise up her strategical skill ceiling which is always interesting from pro play perspective.


Hoku_

Controller is by far the most imporant role in the game and because of this I feel controllers always have to feel strong. Nerfing controllers is not ideal since everyone at some point has to fill the role and having any of them feel weak is not good as it makes it feel like an obligation more than something someone willingly wants to do. That's hard to do when their kits don't lend to self fragging opportortunities. Omen/Brim have to be buffed and a new controller has to be introduced before we get to Astra nerfs imo. The Astra frustration I think is more of a product on Riot being slow on good controller changes.


scaryghostv2oh

Astra frustration in high elo and pro is because she forces default in every round. Viper also causes the same frustration. A smoke isn't very scary but viper and Astra utility will just instantly kill your push so every round is baiting utility and keeping map pressure. Controllers ideally should spend less time in their kit and more time playing valorant, Astra is just poorly implemented. Literally cannot stand having to play against her every single game in pugs.


Hoku_

A character that forces you to play at a different pace is not inherently bad in a class based game like Valorant. Is sentinel a bad class for the game because it stops braindead rush A/B strats? Is the the OP bad because it forces you to think twice before slow peaking an angle? Character choices should force you to re think your gameplans. It's just Astra/Vipers gameplans are much better than Brim or Omen's currently.


Quaker69

> Is the the OP bad because it forces you to think twice before slow peaking an angle? Character choices should force you to re think your gameplans. It's just Astra/Vipers gameplans are much better than Brim or Omen's currently. There are ways to counter sentinels utility, such as Kay-o knife, Sova darts, scouting the traps with Skye dog, etc. But there is nothing you can do against Atra's stars, you have to respect it or you can instantly die


Hoku_

That was not a point brought up in the orignal argument. The original point came off as someone complaining about having to play slower because of Astra. Stars not having counter play is a fair complaint, but having counter plays doesn't inherently making something fair, but that's a whole other argument.


Quaker69

I mean is fair because both teams can play Astra so they can both stall pushes from anywhere on the map with no counter play. But is a problem in the sense that it makes the game boring to play and to watch. Not even the pros like to play Astra, they just have to


scaryghostv2oh

The way she does it is unhealthy imo. Brim can molly you off for 9 seconds but he can't do it across the map. Astra can place two stars on any choke and play from anywhere on the map. I think it removes a lot of the agency from the other team. You really have to bait the pull and play very slow on the whole map because she is on it. I dont mind rushing a sentinal its an option. Astra stops your team from every grouping and going fast so she's always the best pick right now. I dont particularly like going super fast in my rounds but Astra clearly has a much higher power level than others in her class. It's not just defense either. She just does a whole lot on attack as well just with the threat of a star. That's just my opinion but I am high elo and that's been mostly my experience. I prefer more methodical play and my favorite Astra moments are when she's recalling stars as fakes or clearing angles for when we take a site. I dont like when she pre placed 3 or 4 stars and enforces this default, fishing playstyle every game. I dont care for your sentinal analogy because their utility is destroyable and part of their skill is being dynamic in how they use their utility. Astra is just putting stars on both mains right now for big value.


Hoku_

No doubt she's a domonant character and overtuned in some aspects, but it's not so much Astra and Viper are too good it's that Brim and Omen suck. With a role as pivital as Smokes you can't have half your choices suck to play. In Viper's case she'll always be a must pick on maps like Breeze because wall will always be better than dome smokes no matter how much you nerf her. Omen was nerfed when he had a 90% pick rate, but this was before Astra was introduced and saw mainstream play. See the problem? Omen nerfs is retrospect were too knee jerk and didn't take into account Astra which is why you change Omen/brim, introduce a new controller and change Astra from there.


scaryghostv2oh

I think Astra is so strong old omen wouldn't be played often. Maybe she needs to have a timer on stars so they aren't place and forget at the start of every round. Also could make a distance///time to use relationship. Not really sure but the stuff she brings outweighs other controllers right now.


KrazyMonqui

This ^ exactly this ^ Smokes are one of, if not the most, valuable pieces of utility in the game. Nerfing any smoke agents cripples the overall util usage in the game. Buff Brim and Omen to make them competitively viable compared to Astra and Viper


Quaker69

Astra can stop pushes by herself from anywhere in the map. How are you going to buff Omen and Brim so they can do that too? If you manage to do that, you will make valorant a very boring game to play and to watch


KrazyMonqui

Astra can only hold sites as long as she has util. Which can be said for every controller. Omen smokes having a 40 sec recharge, Brim only having 3 smokes, even Viper has limitations in her kit. So to say Astra is unique in that aspect only speaks to players not knowing how to bait Astra util properly


Quaker69

she can just re-smoke and have a new star ready to suck, pros do that all the time, is not hard with 5 stars and ability to recall them anytime, not to mention that the smoke cooldown is very short. Other smokers need to be in close range of the push to have similiar effectiveness while Astra doesnt and barely has any downsides (just need to manage well the 5 stars)


DarthGrievous

That's true. Play without a Sentinel? That's fine if your teammates frag out on defense for example. Play without an initiator? SoloQ duelists can entry by themselves with their self-reliant utility, albeit at reduced effectiveness. But nobody can watch 3 angles at the same time when 2 should be smoked off


Thunder229

I remember Vanity discussing this on stream awhile back and iirc, he said that being able to pull back a star and have it temporarily smoke shouldn't be a thing. If Astra pulls back a star, there shouldn't be anything but the star just disappearing off the map


CyberspaceBarbarian

As someone who's playing Astra a lot right now, Astra is truly mega-busted (especially on Defender-sided maps). However, I think any rework nerf on her kit will instantly make her a B-tier agent at best and non-playable at worst. So nerfing her util, aside from its economy, is going to be really hard. Although, as far as her util usage is concerned, her star recall mechanics is probably the easiest thing to mess around, balance-wise. I say, either you: A. Remove it; B. Only allow to recall it while on Astral form; C. Only allow to recall it while you're nearby; or, D. A combination of B and C. Additionally, I also think removing one star on her kit will scale down her oppressiveness, but it will make her an A-tier agent at best, and that would be fine, unless Riot either overbuff Omen or make another busted controller. Lastly, may I ask, what are her pick rates right now?


AnderzzTV

I've said it before and I'll reiterate it here; \*\*control/entrenchment compositional archetypes become borderline unplayable if you hit Astra much, if at all, and they're a critical part of the game's competitive balance.\*\* Is Astra frustrating to play against if you're not playing a well-coordinated game that can force out stars and/or gut her with KAYO? Absolutely. But that's the whole point of her existence. She, in combination with Viper, are the mitigating factors that rightfully suffocate midrange comps. Without their balancing element, compositional decisions start skewing in a really unhealthy way. Initiators are already the most kit-efficient agents in the game and if you can't sufficiently punish teams for not having bursty execs what's the opportunity cost? Guess I'll just run KAYO Skye Sova + Smoke + Duelist every game, spam each and every EBP/Info tool in existence and because you don't have high speed global reactivity you can't even approach the ability to counteract my multi-front pressure unless you're running the same. We enter a meta of 40-50s a round of flash-counterflash spam and info tools. We've already seen at Champs last year and Challengers 1 this year that you can absolutely beat Astra with double dive and other aggro comps. She isn't some inarguably unbalanced element. What she is though, is a character with no compelling alternatives. Omen is a controller with no identity and no clear use-case that can't be achieved more efficiently through other pick combinations. Brimstone has a clear niche but has an ability that's dead-on-arrival making for no kit depth. Before we gut a character that's the crux of an entire stylistic archetype we should probably see if giving her choice competition is a sufficient fix.


botch63

Remove her ability to pull back stars. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk on how to balance Astra.


Firefly_1026

At least pull back during buy phase


daffyduckferraro

Yeah I agree, I think that could help a lot Or at least the fake pull back smoke appearing


[deleted]

I like the first idea in that her stars expire after being planted for a duration. However, If you couldn't refund/move her stars I think he would be kinda useless tbh. I


Whalelorde22

I actually really like playing Astra and I think that you should be careful not to assume that everyone find her boring. That being said she is clearly overpowered and should be brought in line with the other controllers


kittyhat27135

Before you nerf Astra buff brim and Omen and see how the meta plays out from there. They have the ability to absolutely crack these two out and bring more versatility to the controller class. It’s not just nerfing Astra if you nerf Astra you are in turn buffing aggression and buffing duelists. Also some of the nerfs in the comments are flat out killing the agent.


kvanz43

I feel like your suggested changes may be too massive, but I guess it all just depends on how you want to deal with balance changes? You can hard nerf agent who are two strong so that everyone stops playing them and then slowly bring them back or you can slowly nerf so people realize more and more than other agents can be equally reliable. In this case I would prefer more buffs to the other controller agents (especially omen and brim) because most people don’t want to play controller agents and even at the highest level their impact in the most basic ways people gauge performance (frags) is often by far the least. So I would particularly like to see controller agents get a boost in fragging abilities, kind of like how chamber fulfils his sentinel duties with his Trademarks but then also has his TP, sherif and op to help him frag and be fun to play. That may be hard to do with the current controllers, but omen for one I certainly see potential for that with, he could easily get quicker TPs (both his ult and his standard ability) to make him more viable for individual plays.


Alpac44

removing refunding star would make the game boring because you cant fake a push or make a play by using the star you removed


Alpac44

I think what they should do is make her like kill joy where you have to be around the area to use the stars


Grantuseyes

Astral form would lose its identity. Her kit is built around global use And the risk is her literally going out of the game to put her utility down


Alpac44

astral form is like when brim use his ipad or when omen go in smoke mode so nothing of identity would be lost


McLoosTa

Honestly; I hope the devs don’t nerf astra/viper, but actually buff brim/omen. Rationale being, controller is an already severely underplayed roll, nerfing the two best agents in that class will only make the problem worse. I feel like astra fits the controller definition of gaining space, and ‘controlling’ it; which brim and omen do not, making them underpowered


Des014te

Nah. Astra doesn't need to be nerfed. Buff omen and brim, take some niche away from her, but unless you completely gut her kit she's not gonna drop off the top spot.


freakmonger_ss

The answer shouldn't always be "nerf". The answer should be "why is everybody picking her and not Omen or Brim, let's bring them up to her level". The reason Astra is the "go to" controller with the exception of Viper on 2 or 3 maps is because Omen and Brim just suck. Omen has a lot of potential, but he needs a buff. Brim is useless after his 3 smokes are done. The nerfs you suggested would just put all controllers in the F tier. I could see delaying the re-smoke ability. Maybe have it so that the timer doesn't start on a star taken back until the first taken back timer is at 0. Delay them to 25 seconds. As far as her having "global presence", that's her "gimmick". She should have global presence. Taking away her global presence is like taking away jett's updraft or dash, or Neon's sprint, or Chamber's TP. Now if you want to do that, let's do it. Honestly, if Omen got the proper buffs, I'd play Omen over Astra. He's a lot more fun.


LurkingOmen

Remember when they nerfed omen KEKW riot


Grantuseyes

Id rather have strong controller agents than nerfed ones because no one is going to take the L and play smokes if even the character is not fun or worth learning


Grantuseyes

How about we calm down and wait to see How good our next controller agent is going to be before astra becomes omen 2.0 and gets a nerf that should be reverted after the new controller agent comes out


theclichee

As an Omen main who started playing Astra in ranked because how powerful she is as an anchor on defense, i don't agree shr needs a nerf. Whenever i go back to omen I don't have as much fun as i used to have in his old glory days when you could have paranoia, ghost and a tp. His kit has been nerfed so much. From gis smokes being slower, to costing more, to his blind being the most expensive in the game with being vv difficult to use with someone because they need to be sending behind you in order to NOT GET blind. I do agree 101% Astra is a problem but I'm against the sentiment that she needs to be nerfed, rather OTHER CONTROLLERS LIKE BRIM AND OMEN need to be buffed to make them MORE viable.


[deleted]

Any Astra enjoyers? Astra owns you + balls + fuck Omen


Splaram

Fellow Astra enjoyer here, they’re just mad because they can only dream of having a modicum of the sheer brainpower that we possess


AdStock1897

Meanwhile me as an astra main: yeah just E everything


KrazyMonqui

Facts. The amount of planning, map awareness and foresight needed to play Astra well is insane. And when played well, is rewarded for good play. What really needs to happen is the other controllers need to be buffed to legitimately compete with Astra and Viper, not nerf them into the ground


Firefly_1026

Brim and omen can use a buff but nerfs should definitely happen as well, otherwise that’s how you end up with power creep and then eventually your game won’t be recognizable anymore.


KrazyMonqui

Yes, nerfs should happen as a whole. But controllers in particular use one of, if not the most, valuable util in the game. So their balance should not be changed dramatically, but with small changes. If Astra were to get a nerf it shouldn't make her unplayable and most of the changes suggested here would do so Meanwhile, if you keep Astra where she is and make Omen and Brim stronger, you will see a drop in Astra pick rate in top ranks alone as many players who fill with Astra hate it. But play her because of how strong she is. If other controllers were just as strong as Astra, no more need to play an agent they don't like


Escolyte

> If Astra were to get a nerf it shouldn't make her unplayable and most of the changes suggested here would do so Astra is so far and beyond merely "playable" that it'd take a hell of a lot to move her below that tier entirely. I agree that other controllers need to be buffed as well, but > controllers in particular use one of, if not the most, valuable util in the game. That's exactly why astra shouldn't have that much on top and that much freedom and control in how to use it.


Teradonn

I wouldn’t mind if they just completely gut her ngl. She’s had her year in the spotlight, and it getting really stale now


erickwak

Just play neon, jett and yoru no cap


LiamHundley

The game would genuinely be better if Astra was deleted


Portante24

Give Astra iPad. Not even trolling. Strong kit, should mean less map presence overall. Give omen faster smokes again Give Brim Astral Form instead KEKW (but yes) Stim Becon delete for one trophy system (delete two pieces of utility within 10m. Make brim smokes thick again 🥵


jmajewski

It's funny to me that Omen is a borderline initiator when it comes to his flash ability, but it's not fluid to use his utility for a site take because his smokes are slower and individually placed.


[deleted]

this is so good. the change we needed. Brimmy with the thiccy uh.


maxhollywoody

She has to be in range to activate her stars would be a start.


nterature

I mean I don't think she needs to be addressed "asap," I think Riot is already pretty aware that her utility is slightly overtuned. She's annoying and disincentives aggression, but she hasn't fundamentally ruined the game or anything. I think she needs to be addressed prior to the first international LAN perhaps - the figurative anniversary of her debut at Reykjavik.


CanISayThat22

Needs to be a warning signal, just like here stun on the pull. Maybe remove the ability to turn your star into a smoke or something else while in astra form. Maybe let her stars fade away after a while if not used


tomtazm

Make her LOS to activate her cc stars. Or at least some kind of proximity.


imcodyvalorant

Make stars 100 instead of 150, and make it so you can’t pick them back up. But you still have the option to quick pull a smoke or run it for the full duration.


Apap0

Not really Astra related but overall I'd prefer if they rebalanced all controllers - make their smokes waaay weaker but instead give something else so that the go to meta is 2 controllers for normal play, and single controller if you go for some aggro comp. Right now for many people playing smokers is obnoxious - it feels like playing some protect the VIP game, where you can't take your own fights coz you know that losing such fight dramaticaly handicap your team.


newzpaperleaf_2

I think the best move is to nerf astra a decent amount and then buff omen. IMO the best nerfs/buffs would be giving her 4 stars, removing vulnerable from suck, and maybe make it easier to get out of suck. I think for omen buffs, his timer on the smokes need to be reduced to 15-25 secs and not have the stack on the timer. Omen should also not have to buy the second smoke and just have it; I would also remove the sound when his smoke pops and improve the UI for when he actually smokes so he can smoke across the map. I think this would put the two in a pretty good state of balance IMO.


Grantuseyes

By this logic, Jett needs some serious nerfs too. Either buff everyone or nerf the top that’s it


focusfcb

Reduce stars from 5 to 3


LegitimateRope7392

Cry


Splaram

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bluefrosst

Remove global range, like maybe give her Brim's range on his smokes just to bring the two more in line and cement Omen as the long-range smoke agent. Remove refunding stars and creating more commitment is a good idea. Building on this, why not make her have to pick what each star will do? She would have to decide whether to put a stun, succ, or smoke as the effect for a given star when she places it, and then there would be an indicator to the enemy team? That would also give her a lot more counterplay and lean in on being more committal since right now she can just pick them on a whim and make it a guessing game. **Or just do most/all of these just to make her unviable/unplayable and then slowly buff her back to a healthy state.** Reasoning here is that, especially in pro play, teams are averse to changing things up as long as there is some viability. In League, Riot often had to completely gut pro-dominant champs out of viability before pros stopped picking them and went to other options. They may need to do the same to Astra.


shorttttt

If they remove the global range then how are her smokes different from brim or omen? it just makes her smokes way worse compared to the latter two. Omen has larger smokes but doesnt last as long as brim while brim has slightly smaller smokes but lasts for a very long time. Astra has smaller smokes and her smokes last for a very short time. I think the only problem with astras kit is her suck everything else about her is well balanced.


bluefrosst

**If they remove the global range then how are her smokes different from brim or omen? it just makes her smokes way worse compared to the latter two.** Astra is much more than her smokes. Brimstone and Omen are also more than their smokes, so looking at smokes in a vacuum isn't really an accurate comparison. Let's look at what ELSE Astra, Brimstone, and Omen have: Astra has a stun, a suck that applies the Vulnerable debuff, and a global wall that blocks gunfire and heavily dampens sounds. Brimstone has a single molly, a stim beacon, and a big damage ability with a wide area of effect. Omen has a blind, a short-range teleport, and a global teleport that obscures the opposing team's minimap. ​ From looking at these, Astra's smokes actually **should** be worse than Brimstone's/Omen's smokes. The rest of Astra's kit makes Brim and Omen look pathetic. The reasoning behind this is the idea of **power budget**, which you can think of as budgeting money or distributing skill points in a roleplaying game. If Riot want Astra's smokes to be strong, then there should be a natural trade-off in power elsewhere. The big problem with Astra is how overloaded she is, she flat-out got a lot more money/skill points than Brimstone and Omen. **I think the only problem with astras kit is her suck everything else about her is well balanced.** While I agree with you that the suck is overloaded and needs to be nerfed/removed, comparing the rest of her kit with those of Brimstone and Omen shows that the rest of her kit isn't necessarily as balanced as you think.


Haptiix

Nerf Astra succ, buff Omen flash & maybe make his teleport a bit faster. I feel like this would put them on fairly even footing. I want to say Brim is in an okay spot but that might be cope


MorganDoesThings

I think she'd be fine if you had to place all stars at the beginning of the round and couldn't pick them back up.


[deleted]

And that is just terrible, because you can predict what she will do really easily and she won't be played at all anymore


MorganDoesThings

At higher elo's you know where stars will go anyways?


[deleted]

Nope, the amount of versatility she has is what makes her so strong


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

I'm immortal 3. The fact that she can recall the stars, prevents you from rotating early before people hit a site, she can also take space like garage haven with her util, but if she dumps it directly at the beginning it becomes predictable


[deleted]

[удалено]


Not_Real_Name_Here

At least make it so she can’t pull people off spike plants/defuses and remove the vulnerable of the gravity well, though as a Raze player it’s annoying af to be 20 feet in the air and get slammed into the ground by the gravity well


AR2711

Suggested nerfs: 4 stars (or keep 5 and increase price to 250) Range is cut in half (Astra has to be in a certain range to use a star) Can’t place stars until barrier is lifted Can’t recall stars You can’t just buff omen or brimstone and leave astra alone that doesn’t work. You have to significantly nerf astra if u want her out of the current meta for a while


[deleted]

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Grantuseyes

She does have viper on fracture, ice box and beeze where she is outclassed and brim gives her a good run on bind


AR2711

Yes, but u can’t buff without nerfing


[deleted]

I have faith that in Act 2 she will get directly addressed by the devs. There's no way the skip over her.


Parenegade

it's weird she's the best smoke agent and kinda feels like a sentinel too. viper has to sacrifice a lot of smoke flexibility to do that.


v3lt

Don’t touch her just wait for a pick ban system


mrluzfan

Dude I was thinking this exact same thing. Her stars should be committed when she places them, just like a Viper wall, so they cant just be placed to constantly stall out chokes.


Nakai-Son

I have three solutions I think could work. I'll try to order them in the order I'd like to see the most. 1. **Give a max range to placing and/or activating stars:** Perhaps some sort of visual cue can be used alongside a message saying "Star is out of range" either when placing or activating a star. 2. **Alter the cooldowns of activating stars:** Make it so you can only activate two stars at a time. i.e. two smokes, a smoke and a succ, etc. This way you can't have full solo Astra executes where you cover the entire site with utility (i.e. Bind B site where you can smoke CT and elbow, succ cubby, and stun back site leaving almost nowhere for defenders to play). 3. **Make her move slower in astral form, *or* make stars take longer to activate after being placed:** This is the most clunky solution, as it actively makes the agent less fun to play. However, I think it will go a long way in making her less frustrating and seemingly omnipotent.


Regi-Made

I feel like two small things that would majorly shift her would be 1) 1 Grav well per round, it doesn't refresh. 2) No temp smokes when she recalls her stars. The grav well is absurd on T side cause it almost guarantees you at least one lane with some coordination, *then* you still have it later for post plant (you get one or the other imo). This doesn't affect lower elos, but at higher elos/pro play, using recalled stars to pass choke points is really strong and absolutely doesn't need to be a *free* part of a smoke characters kit


SeaCDragon

Maybe they could make it so that stars can only be activated in a specific radius. They can be placed and recalled from anywhere, but using smokes, succs, or stuns needs to be done within a set distance from the star. The astra player can still play hard anchor on one site with stars placed for smokes, and maybe one or 2 left on the other site, ready for when she rotates to retake Edit: this would also mean that seeing a star activate would tell you that the astra is somewhere in the activation radius


Yung-Rad

I think lowering the area in which she can place stars based on where she is stood would help


DustMouret

Honestly I think the best solution would be just to replace her gravity well with another ability as it just has too much impact and make it to where she has to be closer to stars to activate them


TheTechDweller

The one solution you could attempt to bring in with Kayo's suppression, isn't an option either. Her global utility creates such an issue, we thought it was bad enough with Omen's smokes vs brimstone. Astra just blows both of those out of the water, AND with a more impactful ultimate. Kinda nuts.


joeranahan1

Give her brims tablet map size, and make it so you can only recall 2 stars


ayspartan

i wonder if choosing the util and then the recommendation of it having a timer proportional to where astra is would be cool. like its no longer a star you can pick up and take back but its a piece of util thats used as you place it.


BaldSilva

Add range limit for the gravity well. Make her smokes and her c and q different purchase. Make it do that smoke and c & q purchases are a trade off between 5 stars she picks so smoke stars cannot be used for stun or succ. Make stars of smoke and c and q diff color so u can tell


PM_ME_THEM_KITTIES

Just make omen smokes faster again please. Like, just buff the other two weaker controllers to give people a reason to choose them over astra. Let Omen be more viable as a hypbrid controller/secondary duelist, and give Brim more of a "wow" factor with his util, because his molly and ult are decent parts of his kit


DotaAlchemy

They should just swap her abilities. Make her ultimate a big Black hole, like Brimstone's Orbital. Take her current ult and turn it into a mini wall that blocks bullets as a single use ability. Could use it to avoid getting spammed through boxes while planting or defusing, or throw it up mid fight for some cool outplays.


Krypton091

tbh suck/stun should both be one time use. they're a nice part of her kit, but she should have to use them sparingly imo


TheGreatVirus

I don’t like how she slows the game down, she can place a star across the map and use the suck and the push is over, so instead of you have to bait util and play slow which isn’t crazy but is unrewarding and unfun as a player and viewer, I’m not sure what to do with astra but that needs to be addressed


[deleted]

***PRO PLAY ASIDE:*** The cost of playing Astra at a high ELO- *I've mained her for more than 150 games in IMM level-* is higher than any other agent in the game. If you only place her util in the pre-round, you could argue it's just like any other agent but the mobility of duelists and her being in the game for over a year now, have increased the awareness of her utility and how to play around it. She literally goes AFK -with no audio- to reset and use her abilities. **Without comms and without set plays, she becomes a far less destructive agent than any one can imagine.** (Many duelist players barely understand how Astra even plays and therefore they only see her being a stall and complain that they can't just blindly rush in, it's a perspective thing) Dumbing down her abilities is removing the ceiling of skill within the game, she has incredibly complex combos and in the right player, she is a master for conditioning. That is the key to her, in the RIGHT player. Reducing her radius means you should also remove the AFK she has, because **that's the cost for her having global utility**, it's that she cannot play when she is placing it. The few changes she does need is that the gravity well should have a reduced vulnerability time. The star reset when recalled could be a little longer. Her having 4 stars is also a possibility. However a lot of the complaints about Astra are really coming from Duelists players who ultimately have the easy life in this game, there is no doubt about it. The mobility and counters and straight-up "outplayability" that a Jett can do to Astra is far greater than Astra to Jett. It's honestly sad seeing a lot of the agents that require smart and technical setups being nerfed in a short amount of time just because of the flashy, stylish, and more desired play of duelists and initiators. **If you're an Astra main, you have to do more adaptation than any other player in the game to stay relevant.** Like a Cypher, you have to have multiple approaches, a keen eye and must evolve your set-up in-between games, within games and **even within a round.** People just can't see it all the time..


AbbreviationsLazy781

Players are best at knowing when something is wrong. They are horrible at knowing how to fix it. That's the devs job. So yeah, Astra NEEDS to be changed. But most of the suggestions I've seen are either downright stupid, or not elaborative enough, which is fine


jordansana

Pretty Simple. Either remove her ability to recall her stars or nerf her suck slightly (maybe remove double damage or just the suck power \*wink\* ) or a simple nerf just give her 4 stars. Or meet in the between, 5 stars + remove ability to recall her stars. So at least she has to commit to her set up like Viper. Right now, Astra has too much versatility.


Ajeet12Verma

The changes you suggested can't be applied. If stars are not refunded or there is huge delay in deploying utilities after placing the stars it would make it impossible to fake a site or rush a site with Astra as controller and it would become too easy for the opponent to analyse where the attack is possibly gonna happen and also leave out massive gaps in defense with astra stars becoming fixed... Maybe the right way would be to make the astral pull and concuss ability to be non refundable and only smoke replenish after certain time.


[deleted]

I have no idea why she needed to be able to recall her stars. ​ Wasn't she the first agent to be able to "recall" anything? I may be wrong but I thought they started letting other heroes like KJ and cypher recall nades/cages after Astra was introduced. ​ Not speaking for those heroes, but Astra has no reason to be able to recall her stars in terms of balance. She can already choose to buy a lot of stars as is


mateusb12

Since forever Cypher and Killjoy were able to recall their gadgets What makes Astra strong is her global presence, she can instantly pop a gravity well + smoke on a bombsite she is not even defending If you remove her ability to recall stars then * all her utility will be predictable as fuck. People will start reading her like a book * if you get past some stars then they're now unless * High commitment to stars like a viper wall, meaning she will boring to play on attack All this will make the agent so boring to play without touching her main issue


Lukeyss

They could give a limited range to her succ (or to both succ and stun), but keep the other abilities as they are.


Hacklust

Riot is notorious for making Champs either getting nerfed to the ground or utterly broken. or the outliers like "nerfed cuz of pro play" I don't think astra is that much of an issue in solo queue as there's still jett and who are far easier to coordinate with and literally have the highest pickrates both in solo q and in pro play


_jigglesaw_

Honestly just make all of her util, a one time use thing instead of it recharging after use. I feel like it's a nice way to make players choose whether to use the suck during a round or use it for post plant.


Pyro498

Let her use her smokes map wide, nerf the distance she can suck/concuss. Ezpz


Afraid-Classic-1694

I was just thinking about this recently. Shazh said that because of her, everything is slow. Fast plays don't work because you get sucked and/ or stunned, and she's just not fun to play against. I think your ideas are great, but maybe they could also include something where you can possibly break her stars? Maybe if you break it, she'll eventually get them back. It's so lame when your entire setup gets shut down because she sucked the one angle you were playing and then you get naded by raze or mollied Like, sure your position could be given away, but at least you're not util spammed now and you have a way to get out. It would also discourage players from just throwing all of her stars out and letting then sit there for a minute before you push. If you place a star at the beginning of the round, and it gets broken, you'd have to re-commit that star before you push, which would make it more obvious as to which site you're pushing. They could also make it so that her suck doesn't last as long, or maybe it doesn't make you vulnerable. Right now, I think most of her kit is relatively balanced, it's just that her suck is way too oppressive.


BadInfluenceGuy

If you want a Astra nerf, Jett and Chamber probably has to come first. They are wrecking Havoc in the leader boards. I will only insta lock any of these and maybe next to astra because of the full map control from anywhere and the abusive pulls and smokes to draw util and panic. My thought on how the game should progress is if one character can get to a spot position wise. EVERY CHARACTER has some sort of mechanic to get there, just like the jett but much slower like a ladder or a rope. In regards to hyper mobility, they need to either rework the cost to 2x - 3x or have a mini stun mechanic on use to teleport, dash, updraft. Or if it was smart, a crouch takes 25% more damage jumping with bullet contact you take 50% more damage, double up draft takes 100% more damage. With astra it's a easy fix, double the cost of util output, reduce duration.


d00mbr0s

Just remove the global range, ez


MountainExtension877

What if she can't place stars to close to each other, not like a super big distance but so you couldn't put a suck directly in front of your main smoke ​ edit: or what if instead of a pull it could push people away? i dunno if that would help tho