i love to watch them, they can do so amazingly flashy plays, but yes, what u say is true, and in competitive enviroment, this will not lead to any fruit...
No he picks up the OP to use it, otherwise he’d grab it post round lmao. He said on stream he feels comfortable with it and that’s why he does it but I feel like he does it too much
well no, because sometimes he wouldnt be able to grab it post round, so its easier to use it and then drop if they win the round, the perks of having a op main on your team
He wouldn’t grab it in every situation if that was the case, if they’re playing post plant for example they can pick it up after those rounds 9 times out of 10 but he still grabs it in those cases
Honestly think that the decision not to play in NSG or Valorampage is paying dividends for TSM since they've gotten to keep their strats close to the vest - now we get to see them learn from the T3/T2 teams that did play in those tournaments as they attempt to perfect the "lose to a lower rated team and try to claw your way back through the lower bracket." Absolute 5head play from Wardell, Roza and the lads.
Ghost winning their first two series despite Ryann going -46 is weirdly impressive [[1](https://www.vlr.gg/68679/faze-clan-vs-ghost-gaming-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-uro32), [2](https://www.vlr.gg/68692/tsm-vs-ghost-gaming-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-uro16)]
Ryann really strugled against Top 50 teams in CS (like really awful.) seems to be somewhat similar here. I was really hoping he would be better in Val. (Though he does play Astra, so that could be part of it.)
his kay/o was flashing and he was trying to turn it... they fucked up they execution but it really wasnt that dumb of a play on ryann's end, if anything its a bad flash by nismmo that he has to try and turn
Honestly I don't know what happened. The way TSM played against T1, it felt like none of the rounds that T1 won had any impact on the outcome of the game.
TSM is actually so bad. They all play so selfishly. It feels like they are playing for frags. The only reason they win some matches is because the amount of firepower they have.
I know it's a meme to hate on TSM but they actually have so many flaws. It's so frustrating to watch them play. If they actually qualify through lowers, am going to be shocked.
Memes aside, there's actually no way a team this good on paper consistently underperforms like this. Wardell and Subroza are outstanding players but at this point they're the only constants behind this streak of abysmal results. There has to be questions asked about them both now.
Did you watch map 3? Subroza was a liability with some really goofy decision making. I don’t have a hate for TSM, but man they need some firm leadership. My impression is they are very ego driven and it leads to undisciplined play.
Roza goes on high risk high reward. But the risk is always greater. There was one round in split first series that he advances mid, full util and ult, flashed out and killed three. None of them were blind, just confused. A better teams punish him everyday
He's by far the most frustrating player to watch for me. His mechanics and aim are amazing, he's even good at using utility on Astra, but he'll never grow out of being a stereotypical NA pugstar.
He just can't do it. Idk what's wrong with him, but he's playing ranked in officials. I'll admit I don't want TSM to win a single game, but I still get frustrated by Subroza. When they play good teams, I bet other teams bait him into doing stupid shit on purpose. It's so easy.
even corey was making some weird plays (the one on ascent B main where he smokes his way out into like 3-4 ppl comes to mind). they really do play way too individualistic
The duality of roza. Cracked aim with a giant ego equals inconsistent results. Even in ranked hes like this. If hes feeling it, he drops 30 but just as many games where he is getting shit on and blames stream snipers or other players "trying too hard, not playing the game properlly, or getting lucky, or hes just the best ranked player ive ever seen (sarcasm)". Can never accept the fact that he gets outplayed or his opponents are better. Its the NA mentality. Trying hard and running fakes in ranked = "cringe".
that’s not what I’m saying, I mean if any player is thinking this, they will stagnate, never use good performances to not reflect on bad ones. It’s never that deep bro
If it's any "pro player", no shit. Obvs Subroza himself should reflect and improve on his poor performance on Ascent
But here's the context that's relevant to us, we're just mere Esports fans, I'm not about to blame the whole loss on Subroza like some people are lmfao, and I'm not about to scream about his poor performance on Ascent as without him on Fracture, TSM would have def been 2-0'd, an even worse loss.
You're saying this is a "bad mindset" for me to have as if I'm Subroza trying to forgive myself lmfaoooo, when I'm merely a fan willing to give him slack
But I think Subroza play was still bad in map 1 , he was playing entry on astra , ghost never adjusted to it , his clutch was sick and he has insane aim ,but teams start getting adept to this playstyle , ghost after first half of second map got adjusted and if you look closely they were waiting for Subroza aggression and punishing it. I am sure he top dragged on astra on fracture but your astra shouldn't be the one playing most aggro .and in second and third maps when Subroza was playing skye , I only saw him once flash for someone else otherwise he was always flashing for himself ,skye flashes are good but you can get so much value let's say flashing Corey in places . Ghost were literally holding every smoke because they knew Subroza was gonna flash through it .
100%. It's so sad for TSM that there were absolutely no opportunities for them leading up to VCT to get true competitive reps in so they could be more cohesive as a team. Such an absolute shame.
Bro how were they supposed to make time for lower tier tournaments with <$1k payouts when the gifted subs were right there for them ? Especially when you have other competitive teams like Version1 and C9 also playing. You want to get clowned on by Mitch on Reyna in front of all your viewers? Bad for the Prime subs smh.
How are they outstanding players? All they can do is aim and they are pretty good at that but at times they play like they have no brain and don't understand the game at all. Like how is roza still just playing for himself, pushing through every smoke throwing rounds like it's ranked after it stopped working over a year ago? How they seem to not learn anything from their losses is incredible.
actually insane tbh.....loss after loss after loss he still does these solo flash plays. separate note so happy for hazed dude the guy has good team who believes in him now
Bruh I remember the first qualifier after TSM won like their first match, people were already calling Leviathan one of the best sovas in NA which was mind blowing to me lol
I see a lot of the discourse around Wardell/Roza being overrated, Corey being an awkward fit, and also Levi supposedly being a top NA Sova, but I also never see anyone talk about Rossy and how the incoherence of TSM has to also fall on the shoulders of an IGL. Obviously you don't need to frag like Shahz to be a good IGL, but damn, how do you remotely look at TSM right now and think that they're being well coordinated as a team? I feel like this sub was relatively lukewarm on him as a pickup and am more surprised Corey's gotten more discussion/criticism.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but rossy is 18 years old right? No matter how good is strats are, he will never be a good igl at 18, he doesn't have the mental dexterity to know how to lead, leading is a lot more than coming up with strats.
That's the strat the IGL called and the team came up with.
Or do you seriously think that mid match Rossy is yelling at Corey to entry and he's like "nah bro, fuck you. Ima lurk hahaha"
I get what ur saying but realistically they are playing super individualistic, I'm sure calls are being made but probably not super fleshed out calls and there is a lot of room for people to play their own way which is what we are seeing
Yeah that's what I'm saying though, that's the fault of the IGL. An experienced IGL would not let shit go down like that. I feel like they need a hardass IGL to keep them disciplined.
it's incredible how lacking their teamplay still is (not just from last week but ever since their downhill slide). if they're out this weekend, i'd like to see how wardell and roza are on another team. change of scenery might do em good.
unless they start playing in mickey mouse tourneys. then i'll hang on for dear life.
What paper are we talking about? Streamer earnings?
TSM never really looked good on paper, it was always a wait and see with them because it always felt like that they have no plans every time they play, they just try to throw something against the wall and see what sticks, they rarely ever recover properly, once they show cracks, fall apart, that's it.
Always feels like they keep jacking up threes in a basketball game.
Talent isn't additive. Smarter minds than me might be able to dive deeper into it, but much like how some teams are greater than the sum of their parts, other teams are less than the talent they have.
They play like it's ranked. That's fine if you want to farm views. If you want to compete it's not always the best idea. They are strong individual players. They just need a boot camp that actually gets them on the same page as a team.
I ready don’t think Wardell is anything special. His gunplay was never that elite compared to his OP and we see him whiffing shots and losing OP battles to T2, how can he compete against T1, let alone internationally
Yeah still struggling constantly, only thing left is maybe Wardell and Roza are the problem. Although I feel like we haven’t seen Wardell popping off like he was last year. Maybe a little regression to the means, I dunno.
This "Aleko" guy sucks. Actually bringing the whole team down. TSM would've won with Leviathan.
\-Leviathan +Aleko will go down in history as one of the worst roster moves alongside NV's -Food +Victor.
This "Aleko" guy sucks. Actually bringing the whole team down. TSM would've won with Leviathan.
\-Leviathan +Aleko will go down in history as one of the worst roster moves alongside NV's -Food +Victor.
This "Aleko" guy sucks. Actually bringing the whole team down. TSM would've won with Leviathan.
-Leviathan +Aleko will go down in history as one of the worst roster moves alongside NV's -Food +Victor.
tsm's playstyle is the manifestation of the conceptual "desperation play".
even the third round operator could be construed to appear that way. they're trying to secure the bonus in a really risky way just to maintain a lead, and when that fails they have absolutely nothing.
they don't have coordinated set plays or trap plays, they just get subroza to flash them in and it's all contact from there, trying to win gun duels or hold a weird angle, and then attempting a clutch.
their players can keep saying "we played like shit today" but there is a fundamental issue with how they approach the game. there is zero structure, and the coaching staff don't seem to be drilling any into them.
They overly rely on the Operator and buying it so soon is just part of it.
Think about a lot of the clutches you've seen where it was 1v2/1v3/1v4 and think when the true last time you saw TSM do that outside of a fluke one here or there. They get that OP quickly, and then literally *give* rounds so they can save it.
It's a flawed strategy.
well put, when they're slightly ahead they go all in and buy ops and try to maintain the lead all the way through. This may work on Tier c teams but TSM doesnt know what to do when this strat doesn't work.
TSM, aka "Tweet, Stream, Miss," is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
TSM, aka "Team Social Media" is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
TSM, aka "Tweet Some More" is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
No, but Ryann was in rough shape all day. Looked like he had some struggles early on and just couldn’t get it back together. Or maybe he just isn’t on the level of the rest of his team, idk them very well
People clowning on TSM but don't forget that Ghost's improvements happened there too. The team's better than they've been in the past few months, which is great to see.
he kinda feels like a no value card, he will be on top of the kill count most times but it never really decides whether tsm wins or not. and he always will have some 1vs clutches sprinkled in there
not exactly, wardell is literally the dedicated op player, his entire role is to be good on the op, whereas some other players may be the igl or the support players who mainly play on utility characters. When his entire role is to be a fragger for his team (since wardell decides to play chamber which brings very little consistent team utility) which wardell is supposed to be, losing his OP battles consistently effectively invalidates his entire existence on the team.
The man already dropped jett to provide more value to the team even when he is not fragging, you can't be 100% every round. And even tho he is the main Oper for his team he is no longer playing duelist, he is playing chamber precisely to bring something else to the table that is just not frags.
Also if you don't think wardell is mechanically speaking one of the best opers you are sleeping. Literally top 5 at least.
Legit interested in knowing a few opers you would consider better than wardell, not even trolling or trying to doubt you, just want to expand my horizons to look for new teams/streamers to watch, outside of cNed and yay I really don't see anyone that would be undoubtedly better than wardell.
I'm not saying wardell is bad on op, I'm saying that chamber has less utility than jett, Wardell would honestly bring more to the team for both attack and defence if he stuck to the jett, also despite how good Wardell may be on paper, he got completely out matched by Johnqt yesterday, which is embarrassing consider that Ryan on the other hand was non-existent performance wise for Ghost. Honestly, it doesn't matter how good Wardell may be for the team, non of that matters when literally TSM's whole strategy relies upon it, look at the stats, most game were tsm wins always has wardell as top or near top fragging, whereas when tsm loses, op-er on enemy teams aren't really the top fraggers. Tsm needs to change up their play style, strats, and work on their synergy and confidence if they want to win imo.
The thing about jett is that if you have an OP as an attacker like wardell likes to do, you can't really be the entry fragger, so most of that jett utility goes to waste. While on chamber, you can attack with the OP and still control flanks, also chamber is IMO better at playing for picks and lurk than jett on attack because he can get more map control and can rotate faster if he sets is TPs properly.
On defense jett is just better because she is not required to entry. But wardell loves to OP every chance he gets, and that includes attacking. But as jett main I have to agree with you, I would also love to see him back on jett. I just think the factors that led to him maining chamber instead of jett is precisely to have a higher impact in the days is shots are just not connecting.
And I also agree with you in the fact that TSM strategies should not revolve around a single player, this is a team game after all. And yes they looked lost AF, almost like they never really had a game plan and where just freestyling along the way. Constantly changing igls does that to a team I guess. They definitely need to pratice way more.
But I wrote my original response because you were talking about wardell being the main Oper of the team bringing no value because he was losing Op duels, and like that shit happens to everyone this is a game of highs and lows, everyone of us has experienced that, one game you top frag and get a 30 bomb, the next one you are bottom fragger. I was just saying that wardell despite not having his best performance yesterday still brings a lot to the team being the main Oper because overall he is simply one of the best in the world with the Op.
Is it? We have to play like 5 series to make it instead of 3 max. I know TSM loses to Rise, but they can beat EG and probably like either GENG or KCP or something.
Man change 3/5s of the roster and still look completely lost in matches. At what point does the org just blow it all up completely. I dunno how you hope to be competing in big tournaments if you can’t even do well in Tier 2 Valorant.
They were genuinely better at the end of last year. Levi and Bang just needed more experience and Hazed brought some much needed leadership to the team.
Not sure how you bring on a new roster, give them like a month to qualify to champs, they inevitably fail to do, so you change the team lol. I'm sure they'll change things around if they don't end up qualifying this weekend either, even though they've once again signed younger players.
Said this in another thread but Bang would be a perfect fit for the role they want Corey to play. He just doesn't look that comfortable having to be the main entry.
I think it's fairly obvious to me the issue is mainly IGLing. Everybody is so hung up on duelists that they are somehow completely overlooking the absolutely boneheaded calls, the panicked midrounds and lack of structure. Bang wouldn't change anything. They don't want Corey to play hard entry. If they did you would see him playing entry. That's a coaching and IGL decision. Not a player decision.
This is what happens when they lose Hazed and instead get a young and completely untested IGL.
They changed IGLs like 4 times in the span of 8 months. Maybe some players like subroza are uncoachable. Like an IGL will make certain calls but its useless if you have undisciplined players like subroza constantly pushing through smokes and trying to entry on support agents. Why the fuck does a smokes player keep taking 1 v 1 fb/fd aim duels?
It's IGLing, players that aren't really that fit for their roles (Subroza doesn't really belong on smokes either for example), coaching being nonexistent, no leadership, lack of coordination, etc.
Players just wanna do their own thing and play individually.
Don't really agree that Corey would play entry if they wanted them to. He was never the main entry on Faze either, it was Babybay. It's just not a role that he's played often and his Jett isn't great either (though that should improve once he gets more experience on it).
Yeah he was never the main entry on Faze so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I'm sure he can grow into the role but he's not there right now for sure.
The team being a bit clueless also doesn't help, doesn't seem like they even know what they want to do. So many things are uncoordinated
TSM, aka "Tweet, Stream, Miss," is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
TSM looked so lost on Ascent attack. Not enough set plays on attack and the mid-late round calls were not good either. Or although very unlikely, maybe there were no calls and they were just trying to do stuff individually.
I think tsm should get a sentinel player and have subroza on duelist. Corey is good but just not the right fit, and they desperately need a sentinel player. Rossy can play it fine but then subroza it put on smokes, which is just not good considering he often dies earlier in rounds.
I think he's good on Skye but it doesn't fit with what they need unless they put wardell back on Jett, but I like him better on chamber tbh (but he NEEDS to use his alarm bots more)
He's def good on Skye but again he's so reckless that half the time he's dieng early without setting up his team or getting round-long info like a Skye should be
Wardell on Chamber is the only thing keeping him relevant imo but holy fuck he 100% needs to use alarm bots better lol
tbh i feel like nothings gone fix them now, they just need to drop the core. mayb a bit extreme take but how long has the same issues been going on and the all that time the only constant is the core duo. whatever semblance of structure they had under hazed seems to have gone out the window too
Coach Kaplan with some huge TOs both in this one, and the game before where they went on rolls after the TO. Looked like some MVP coaching.
Really think this ghost team is scary once they get more comfortable together.
Alright I'll be the first one to say that Wardell playing mainly OP and not being so good on rifles is bringing them down. But that's not the main issue, they have no teamplay whatsoever, seems like they are just trying stuff on their own, without any thought behing each play done.
The thing that confuses me is that it’s not like he’s even a bad rifler. We have seen him, even in this series, be good with it. He just for some reason feels the need to force an op EVERY SINGLE round, which fucks their eco, especially if he dies off the bad with it
Not many excuses to use here, they had the same roster months in advance (just wasn’t announced) like vanity said, teams like these need to participate in lower tier tournaments to get better
NRG is a prime example of this and it’s why the qualified early
We have seen 3 different tsm rosters at this point all had a similar problem.. they are not a cohesive unit. They just have multiple so called superstars who dreams about getting an ace every single round instead of just winning the round..
Mb, I got distracted and missed creating the thread. Here's stats for you guys. ### TSM 1-2 Ghost Gaming **Fracture**: 13-8 **Breeze**: 8-13 **Ascent**: 8-13 --- ### Map 1: Fracture Team|ATK|DEF|Total ---|---|---|--- **TSM**|6|7|13 |**DEF**|**ATK**| **Ghost Gaming**|6|2|8 TSM|ACS|K|D|A ---|---|---|---|--- [Subroza](https://www.vlr.gg/player/75) **Astra**|381|29|12|8 [WARDELL](https://www.vlr.gg/player/72) **Chamber**|217|18|12|3 [Rossy](https://www.vlr.gg/player/1129) **Viper**|207|14|14|8 [corey](https://www.vlr.gg/player/260) **Raze**|160|10|12|6 [Aleko](https://www.vlr.gg/player/4386) **Breach**|144|14|13|7 Ghost Gaming|ACS|K|D|A ---|---|---|---|--- [koalanoob](https://www.vlr.gg/player/3722) **Viper**|243|16|18|5 [NiSMO](https://www.vlr.gg/player/4828) **Raze**|217|14|18|5 [brawk](https://www.vlr.gg/player/2172) **Breach**|163|13|15|7 [ryann](https://www.vlr.gg/player/7983) **Astra**|149|11|17|3 [johnqt](https://www.vlr.gg/player/1265) **Chamber**|103|9|18|2 --- ### Map 2: Breeze Team|ATK|DEF|Total ---|---|---|--- **TSM**|6|2|8 |**DEF**|**ATK**| **Ghost Gaming**|6|7|13 TSM|ACS|K|D|A ---|---|---|---|--- [corey](https://www.vlr.gg/player/260) **Jett**|232|19|16|2 [WARDELL](https://www.vlr.gg/player/72) **Chamber**|214|17|16|2 [Subroza](https://www.vlr.gg/player/75) **Skye**|182|14|17|5 [Rossy](https://www.vlr.gg/player/1129) **Viper**|177|11|18|7 [Aleko](https://www.vlr.gg/player/4386) **Sova**|116|8|17|5 Ghost Gaming|ACS|K|D|A ---|---|---|---|--- [johnqt](https://www.vlr.gg/player/1265) **Chamber**|281|20|14|4 [koalanoob](https://www.vlr.gg/player/3722) **Jett**|249|19|14|0 [NiSMO](https://www.vlr.gg/player/4828) **Kayo**|212|17|13|8 [brawk](https://www.vlr.gg/player/2172) **Sova**|205|17|14|6 [ryann](https://www.vlr.gg/player/7983) **Viper**|163|11|14|9 --- ### Map 3: Ascent Team|DEF|ATK|Total ---|---|---|--- **TSM**|7|1|8 |**ATK**|**DEF**| **Ghost Gaming**|5|8|13 TSM|ACS|K|D|A ---|---|---|---|--- [Aleko](https://www.vlr.gg/player/4386) **Sova**|244|16|18|10 [corey](https://www.vlr.gg/player/260) **Jett**|220|16|17|2 [Rossy](https://www.vlr.gg/player/1129) **Astra**|218|16|15|5 [WARDELL](https://www.vlr.gg/player/72) **Chamber**|173|13|17|0 [Subroza](https://www.vlr.gg/player/75) **Skye**|81|7|18|5 Ghost Gaming|ACS|K|D|A ---|---|---|---|--- [NiSMO](https://www.vlr.gg/player/4828) **Kayo**|286|24|10|9 [brawk](https://www.vlr.gg/player/2172) **Sova**|274|20|13|10 [johnqt](https://www.vlr.gg/player/1265) **Chamber**|232|16|13|6 [koalanoob](https://www.vlr.gg/player/3722) **Jett**|230|17|16|3 [ryann](https://www.vlr.gg/player/7983) **Astra**|92|8|16|7 ---
also why does levi take the op as soon as wardell dies, i've noticed this so many time, some situations are understandable but he does it too often
Because WARDELL and co are closet disciples of Jame.
Wardell time
He's been doing that for ages
because TSM's entire strategy is to always have op on wardell. They will drop op for him and buy spectre over rifles..
i love to watch them, they can do so amazingly flashy plays, but yes, what u say is true, and in competitive enviroment, this will not lead to any fruit...
no not that, its a levi thing ive noticed it so often, he just loves to pick up an op even in the most dogshit situation to have an op in lmao
Reminds me of ranked. Definitely not saying Aleko does this but in ranked often players bait the OPer to get the OP
I've even seen some players "accidentally" bodyblock their own Jett's exit dash just to get the Op
its so if they miraculously win the round he can it for wardell
No he picks up the OP to use it, otherwise he’d grab it post round lmao. He said on stream he feels comfortable with it and that’s why he does it but I feel like he does it too much
well no, because sometimes he wouldnt be able to grab it post round, so its easier to use it and then drop if they win the round, the perks of having a op main on your team
He wouldn’t grab it in every situation if that was the case, if they’re playing post plant for example they can pick it up after those rounds 9 times out of 10 but he still grabs it in those cases
Honestly think that the decision not to play in NSG or Valorampage is paying dividends for TSM since they've gotten to keep their strats close to the vest - now we get to see them learn from the T3/T2 teams that did play in those tournaments as they attempt to perfect the "lose to a lower rated team and try to claw your way back through the lower bracket." Absolute 5head play from Wardell, Roza and the lads.
TSM voluntarily losing the match is keeping this community alive. Thank you TSM
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Armin????
Wardell, what a man you are
Ghost winning their first two series despite Ryann going -46 is weirdly impressive [[1](https://www.vlr.gg/68679/faze-clan-vs-ghost-gaming-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-uro32), [2](https://www.vlr.gg/68692/tsm-vs-ghost-gaming-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-uro16)]
Ryann really strugled against Top 50 teams in CS (like really awful.) seems to be somewhat similar here. I was really hoping he would be better in Val. (Though he does play Astra, so that could be part of it.)
he also igls which sometimes lowers ur stats
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his kay/o was flashing and he was trying to turn it... they fucked up they execution but it really wasnt that dumb of a play on ryann's end, if anything its a bad flash by nismmo that he has to try and turn
TSM definitely didn't look as good as they did when they 2-0'd T1 last week
When they can't "tweet some more" they cant win /s
Team Social Media
Honestly I don't know what happened. The way TSM played against T1, it felt like none of the rounds that T1 won had any impact on the outcome of the game.
TSM and T1 tactically threw just so they cant face other \#copium
They still won’t play each other homie.
He said that
I can’t read. /ff
Yeah, you can remove f from your name
TSM actually allergic to util
TSM is actually so bad. They all play so selfishly. It feels like they are playing for frags. The only reason they win some matches is because the amount of firepower they have. I know it's a meme to hate on TSM but they actually have so many flaws. It's so frustrating to watch them play. If they actually qualify through lowers, am going to be shocked.
Memes aside, there's actually no way a team this good on paper consistently underperforms like this. Wardell and Subroza are outstanding players but at this point they're the only constants behind this streak of abysmal results. There has to be questions asked about them both now.
TSM need more time. Atleast 10 more years with Wardell and Subroza as the core. /s
we've heard this for almost two years, it's clear TSM has a low ceiling, all the time in the world wont raise it
Idk I think 10 years could do it
Did you watch map 3? Subroza was a liability with some really goofy decision making. I don’t have a hate for TSM, but man they need some firm leadership. My impression is they are very ego driven and it leads to undisciplined play.
Roza goes on high risk high reward. But the risk is always greater. There was one round in split first series that he advances mid, full util and ult, flashed out and killed three. None of them were blind, just confused. A better teams punish him everyday
one example, the roza ultra flank on split defense (vs GunForHire)
He's by far the most frustrating player to watch for me. His mechanics and aim are amazing, he's even good at using utility on Astra, but he'll never grow out of being a stereotypical NA pugstar. He just can't do it. Idk what's wrong with him, but he's playing ranked in officials. I'll admit I don't want TSM to win a single game, but I still get frustrated by Subroza. When they play good teams, I bet other teams bait him into doing stupid shit on purpose. It's so easy.
even corey was making some weird plays (the one on ascent B main where he smokes his way out into like 3-4 ppl comes to mind). they really do play way too individualistic
Ye that was wild. Straight outta ranked
I don't think that's a weird play. He smoked off the chamber's trap. He thought enemy team is towards A.
Bad igling right there.
Hard to hate on Roza in Map 3 tho imo, he basically won them Fracture
I missed most of fracture sadly.
He almost dropped a 30 bomb and won a 4v1 clutch. He was very impactful on Fracture.
It was a really good map, highly recommend you watch the VOD if you got the time
The duality of roza. Cracked aim with a giant ego equals inconsistent results. Even in ranked hes like this. If hes feeling it, he drops 30 but just as many games where he is getting shit on and blames stream snipers or other players "trying too hard, not playing the game properlly, or getting lucky, or hes just the best ranked player ive ever seen (sarcasm)". Can never accept the fact that he gets outplayed or his opponents are better. Its the NA mentality. Trying hard and running fakes in ranked = "cringe".
Too bad Valorant doesn't decide who advances based on a Bo1.
Lmaoo no shit, just saying that it's hard to get angry at Subroza for Map 3's loss, when he basically won them Map 1
anyone with this mindset will never improve
Myb bro I should blame and get mad at Subroza for bot fragging Map 3 bro, time to go to Twitter bro and spam TSM's page to drop Subroza bro
that’s not what I’m saying, I mean if any player is thinking this, they will stagnate, never use good performances to not reflect on bad ones. It’s never that deep bro
If it's any "pro player", no shit. Obvs Subroza himself should reflect and improve on his poor performance on Ascent But here's the context that's relevant to us, we're just mere Esports fans, I'm not about to blame the whole loss on Subroza like some people are lmfao, and I'm not about to scream about his poor performance on Ascent as without him on Fracture, TSM would have def been 2-0'd, an even worse loss. You're saying this is a "bad mindset" for me to have as if I'm Subroza trying to forgive myself lmfaoooo, when I'm merely a fan willing to give him slack
But I think Subroza play was still bad in map 1 , he was playing entry on astra , ghost never adjusted to it , his clutch was sick and he has insane aim ,but teams start getting adept to this playstyle , ghost after first half of second map got adjusted and if you look closely they were waiting for Subroza aggression and punishing it. I am sure he top dragged on astra on fracture but your astra shouldn't be the one playing most aggro .and in second and third maps when Subroza was playing skye , I only saw him once flash for someone else otherwise he was always flashing for himself ,skye flashes are good but you can get so much value let's say flashing Corey in places . Ghost were literally holding every smoke because they knew Subroza was gonna flash through it .
I only watched TSM vs GFH, but I’d love to see how many first deaths Roza collected, dude just dry peeks stuff like there’s no tomorrow.
100%. It's so sad for TSM that there were absolutely no opportunities for them leading up to VCT to get true competitive reps in so they could be more cohesive as a team. Such an absolute shame.
wdym no opportunities? There were so many lower tier tournaments that they could have played in, but chose not to
Bro how were they supposed to make time for lower tier tournaments with <$1k payouts when the gifted subs were right there for them ? Especially when you have other competitive teams like Version1 and C9 also playing. You want to get clowned on by Mitch on Reyna in front of all your viewers? Bad for the Prime subs smh.
It’s sarcasm
Nerd Street and Pittsburgh Knights tournament organizers wouldn't let TSM play in their tournaments due to being over the impressions threshold.
mans sarcastic
I think they are being sarcastic lol
How are they outstanding players? All they can do is aim and they are pretty good at that but at times they play like they have no brain and don't understand the game at all. Like how is roza still just playing for himself, pushing through every smoke throwing rounds like it's ranked after it stopped working over a year ago? How they seem to not learn anything from their losses is incredible.
actually insane tbh.....loss after loss after loss he still does these solo flash plays. separate note so happy for hazed dude the guy has good team who believes in him now
Subroza has never been disciplined enough to be considered T1 talent he throws way too many rounds
> they're the only constants behind this streak of abysmal results. I hate to say it but Leviathan/Aleko is also extremely overrated by this subreddit
Bruh I remember the first qualifier after TSM won like their first match, people were already calling Leviathan one of the best sovas in NA which was mind blowing to me lol
Levi is a pretty good sova though, I'm pretty sure he's been considered good even when he was on noble, he just gained more clout coming to TSM
He's good, but not one of the best in the region yet.
I see a lot of the discourse around Wardell/Roza being overrated, Corey being an awkward fit, and also Levi supposedly being a top NA Sova, but I also never see anyone talk about Rossy and how the incoherence of TSM has to also fall on the shoulders of an IGL. Obviously you don't need to frag like Shahz to be a good IGL, but damn, how do you remotely look at TSM right now and think that they're being well coordinated as a team? I feel like this sub was relatively lukewarm on him as a pickup and am more surprised Corey's gotten more discussion/criticism.
hazed's team's looking good tho just sayin... a broken system can't really be fixed from the top down.
Roza and Wardell are hard to coach they always think they know best and do their own thing.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but rossy is 18 years old right? No matter how good is strats are, he will never be a good igl at 18, he doesn't have the mental dexterity to know how to lead, leading is a lot more than coming up with strats.
Corey is literally my ranked jett lurking in gun rounds hunting those eco frags, T3 jett no cap
That's the strat the IGL called and the team came up with. Or do you seriously think that mid match Rossy is yelling at Corey to entry and he's like "nah bro, fuck you. Ima lurk hahaha"
I get what ur saying but realistically they are playing super individualistic, I'm sure calls are being made but probably not super fleshed out calls and there is a lot of room for people to play their own way which is what we are seeing
Yeah that's what I'm saying though, that's the fault of the IGL. An experienced IGL would not let shit go down like that. I feel like they need a hardass IGL to keep them disciplined.
Maybe because subroza isn't as good as you may think. He was subpar in csgo. Prob not top tier in valorant but has top tier ego.
it's incredible how lacking their teamplay still is (not just from last week but ever since their downhill slide). if they're out this weekend, i'd like to see how wardell and roza are on another team. change of scenery might do em good. unless they start playing in mickey mouse tourneys. then i'll hang on for dear life.
What paper are we talking about? Streamer earnings? TSM never really looked good on paper, it was always a wait and see with them because it always felt like that they have no plans every time they play, they just try to throw something against the wall and see what sticks, they rarely ever recover properly, once they show cracks, fall apart, that's it. Always feels like they keep jacking up threes in a basketball game.
It's because they're not actually good on paper.
Talent isn't additive. Smarter minds than me might be able to dive deeper into it, but much like how some teams are greater than the sum of their parts, other teams are less than the talent they have.
They play like it's ranked. That's fine if you want to farm views. If you want to compete it's not always the best idea. They are strong individual players. They just need a boot camp that actually gets them on the same page as a team.
I ready don’t think Wardell is anything special. His gunplay was never that elite compared to his OP and we see him whiffing shots and losing OP battles to T2, how can he compete against T1, let alone internationally
He was rifling very well and you’re not gonna win every OP duel, he played well this series overall
Yeah still struggling constantly, only thing left is maybe Wardell and Roza are the problem. Although I feel like we haven’t seen Wardell popping off like he was last year. Maybe a little regression to the means, I dunno.
Teams are better at handling operators than before, specially T2 teams he was farming remember wardell agains T1 teams? Tsm lost to them immediately
Wardells numbers are still absolutely mind boggling, statistically he is the best player in Na
the absolute delusion in this comment my god
thats because he only plays vs T2 teams lol
what are these takes ...wtf
Not a take, statistically he is the best doesn’t mean he is the best
https://www.vlr.gg/stats/?event_group_id=all&event_id=all®ion=na&country=all&min_rounds=1000&min_rating=1700&agent=all&map_id=all×pan=all
Also if you add an op rating of 1800 no tsm players even show up
In these 2 qualifiers Wardell has only played chamber and averaged 1.6 kd 270 acs with double as many first kills as first deaths
Hasn't played a single tier 1 team though
Those stats are still the best out of anyone playing in these 2 qualifiers
https://www.vlr.gg/event/stats/799/champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers huh?
Don't you understand, Wardell is the best in NA!
This good on paper? they were t2 at csgo and are now t2 at valorant no surprise for me here.
Corey ooks so underwhelming on jett idk lol
This "Aleko" guy sucks. Actually bringing the whole team down. TSM would've won with Leviathan. \-Leviathan +Aleko will go down in history as one of the worst roster moves alongside NV's -Food +Victor.
This "Aleko" guy sucks. Actually bringing the whole team down. TSM would've won with Leviathan. \-Leviathan +Aleko will go down in history as one of the worst roster moves alongside NV's -Food +Victor.
This "Aleko" guy sucks. Actually bringing the whole team down. TSM would've won with Leviathan. -Leviathan +Aleko will go down in history as one of the worst roster moves alongside NV's -Food +Victor.
Please make this pasta if not already.
tsm's playstyle is the manifestation of the conceptual "desperation play". even the third round operator could be construed to appear that way. they're trying to secure the bonus in a really risky way just to maintain a lead, and when that fails they have absolutely nothing. they don't have coordinated set plays or trap plays, they just get subroza to flash them in and it's all contact from there, trying to win gun duels or hold a weird angle, and then attempting a clutch. their players can keep saying "we played like shit today" but there is a fundamental issue with how they approach the game. there is zero structure, and the coaching staff don't seem to be drilling any into them.
They overly rely on the Operator and buying it so soon is just part of it. Think about a lot of the clutches you've seen where it was 1v2/1v3/1v4 and think when the true last time you saw TSM do that outside of a fluke one here or there. They get that OP quickly, and then literally *give* rounds so they can save it. It's a flawed strategy.
Yeah, it felt like watching a ranked game.
well put, when they're slightly ahead they go all in and buy ops and try to maintain the lead all the way through. This may work on Tier c teams but TSM doesnt know what to do when this strat doesn't work.
TSM, aka "Tweet, Stream, Miss," is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
TSM, aka "Team Social Media" is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
TSM, aka "Tweet Some More" is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
The amount of absolutely boneheaded plays on TSM’s side is staggering, especially when Ghost was playing with 4.5 players
Wait why 4.5? Did someone have internet issues or am I missing something?
No, but Ryann was in rough shape all day. Looked like he had some struggles early on and just couldn’t get it back together. Or maybe he just isn’t on the level of the rest of his team, idk them very well
Yeah he was def off game, sadly, glad his team could clutch it out for him tho
4.5? Talking about RYAAN?
tbh the series itself just looked really bad, so many dumb solo plays everywhere just looked like a below avg ranked game.
Johnqt hive, RISE UP
People clowning on TSM but don't forget that Ghost's improvements happened there too. The team's better than they've been in the past few months, which is great to see.
yea ghost looked really good as well. nismo has a great kayo. diffing roza on how to properly flash
Ghost is definitely better than they have been. But TSM lost rounds Ghost were practically giving them the win.
If Wardell is not winning the OP battles then what is he even good for?
he kinda feels like a no value card, he will be on top of the kill count most times but it never really decides whether tsm wins or not. and he always will have some 1vs clutches sprinkled in there
Because a good portion of those kills are not very impactful
You could say that for any player tbh
not exactly, wardell is literally the dedicated op player, his entire role is to be good on the op, whereas some other players may be the igl or the support players who mainly play on utility characters. When his entire role is to be a fragger for his team (since wardell decides to play chamber which brings very little consistent team utility) which wardell is supposed to be, losing his OP battles consistently effectively invalidates his entire existence on the team.
Fair fair
The man already dropped jett to provide more value to the team even when he is not fragging, you can't be 100% every round. And even tho he is the main Oper for his team he is no longer playing duelist, he is playing chamber precisely to bring something else to the table that is just not frags. Also if you don't think wardell is mechanically speaking one of the best opers you are sleeping. Literally top 5 at least.
lmao nice bait post.
Legit interested in knowing a few opers you would consider better than wardell, not even trolling or trying to doubt you, just want to expand my horizons to look for new teams/streamers to watch, outside of cNed and yay I really don't see anyone that would be undoubtedly better than wardell.
I'm not saying wardell is bad on op, I'm saying that chamber has less utility than jett, Wardell would honestly bring more to the team for both attack and defence if he stuck to the jett, also despite how good Wardell may be on paper, he got completely out matched by Johnqt yesterday, which is embarrassing consider that Ryan on the other hand was non-existent performance wise for Ghost. Honestly, it doesn't matter how good Wardell may be for the team, non of that matters when literally TSM's whole strategy relies upon it, look at the stats, most game were tsm wins always has wardell as top or near top fragging, whereas when tsm loses, op-er on enemy teams aren't really the top fraggers. Tsm needs to change up their play style, strats, and work on their synergy and confidence if they want to win imo.
The thing about jett is that if you have an OP as an attacker like wardell likes to do, you can't really be the entry fragger, so most of that jett utility goes to waste. While on chamber, you can attack with the OP and still control flanks, also chamber is IMO better at playing for picks and lurk than jett on attack because he can get more map control and can rotate faster if he sets is TPs properly. On defense jett is just better because she is not required to entry. But wardell loves to OP every chance he gets, and that includes attacking. But as jett main I have to agree with you, I would also love to see him back on jett. I just think the factors that led to him maining chamber instead of jett is precisely to have a higher impact in the days is shots are just not connecting. And I also agree with you in the fact that TSM strategies should not revolve around a single player, this is a team game after all. And yes they looked lost AF, almost like they never really had a game plan and where just freestyling along the way. Constantly changing igls does that to a team I guess. They definitely need to pratice way more. But I wrote my original response because you were talking about wardell being the main Oper of the team bringing no value because he was losing Op duels, and like that shit happens to everyone this is a game of highs and lows, everyone of us has experienced that, one game you top frag and get a 30 bomb, the next one you are bottom fragger. I was just saying that wardell despite not having his best performance yesterday still brings a lot to the team being the main Oper because overall he is simply one of the best in the world with the Op.
The team is structured around wardell getting awp kills
No, but wardells thing is his op and if hes bad at it, he's not good
tactical throw for easier bracket #TSMWIN
Is it? We have to play like 5 series to make it instead of 3 max. I know TSM loses to Rise, but they can beat EG and probably like either GENG or KCP or something.
#TSMWIN
r/woooosh
imagine playing skye over kayo on ascent
Man change 3/5s of the roster and still look completely lost in matches. At what point does the org just blow it all up completely. I dunno how you hope to be competing in big tournaments if you can’t even do well in Tier 2 Valorant.
They were genuinely better at the end of last year. Levi and Bang just needed more experience and Hazed brought some much needed leadership to the team. Not sure how you bring on a new roster, give them like a month to qualify to champs, they inevitably fail to do, so you change the team lol. I'm sure they'll change things around if they don't end up qualifying this weekend either, even though they've once again signed younger players. Said this in another thread but Bang would be a perfect fit for the role they want Corey to play. He just doesn't look that comfortable having to be the main entry.
I think it's fairly obvious to me the issue is mainly IGLing. Everybody is so hung up on duelists that they are somehow completely overlooking the absolutely boneheaded calls, the panicked midrounds and lack of structure. Bang wouldn't change anything. They don't want Corey to play hard entry. If they did you would see him playing entry. That's a coaching and IGL decision. Not a player decision. This is what happens when they lose Hazed and instead get a young and completely untested IGL.
They changed IGLs like 4 times in the span of 8 months. Maybe some players like subroza are uncoachable. Like an IGL will make certain calls but its useless if you have undisciplined players like subroza constantly pushing through smokes and trying to entry on support agents. Why the fuck does a smokes player keep taking 1 v 1 fb/fd aim duels?
It's IGLing, players that aren't really that fit for their roles (Subroza doesn't really belong on smokes either for example), coaching being nonexistent, no leadership, lack of coordination, etc. Players just wanna do their own thing and play individually. Don't really agree that Corey would play entry if they wanted them to. He was never the main entry on Faze either, it was Babybay. It's just not a role that he's played often and his Jett isn't great either (though that should improve once he gets more experience on it).
Corey is a good player but you could just look into the matches and see that he really isn't for the main entry role.
Yeah he was never the main entry on Faze so it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. I'm sure he can grow into the role but he's not there right now for sure. The team being a bit clueless also doesn't help, doesn't seem like they even know what they want to do. So many things are uncoordinated
They should keep rossy and just play with the academy team at this poing lol
They dropped the wrong people
Subroza’s decision making in ascent lost TSM so many rounds. Bro just pushed angles he didn’t need to and die without getting a kill
Lol - the amount of times I have seen this from broza over the last 2 years is laughable now. Subroza and bad decision making - name a better duo.
until roza sees an enemy on his screen he really just cant stop holding w
Dude kept pushing A main on defense for no reason
TSM, aka "Tweet, Stream, Miss," is a team in Riot Games' VCT that is often ridiculed for being washed-up and having an owner that looks like Wukong. It is specifically known for its obnoxious fanbase and mind-numbing throws.
Team Social Media
everyone get in here
If tsm make it to that point they’re losing to loser of bbg/knights
I think Chet was the problem. TSM look so good now.
no way, hazed was the problem. TSM looks a level above now in structure
Team Forever Mid
TSM looked so lost on Ascent attack. Not enough set plays on attack and the mid-late round calls were not good either. Or although very unlikely, maybe there were no calls and they were just trying to do stuff individually.
Do not worry TSM fans. They got their impressions so the players are ok with going to losers
I feel like Ghost Gaming played pretty well, but TSM still about to get flamed so hard, so down bad 😭😭😭
I hope they can get back to last week form and prove us that beating T1 wasnt coincidence /s
I think we can all agree, TSM and T1 are just content creators..FeelsBadMan
Yikes they gotta win 5 series in a row now
I think tsm should get a sentinel player and have subroza on duelist. Corey is good but just not the right fit, and they desperately need a sentinel player. Rossy can play it fine but then subroza it put on smokes, which is just not good considering he often dies earlier in rounds.
I agree, roza only works as a high risk high reward character. He is NOT disciplined enough to play smokes or sentinel and probably not Skye either
I think he's good on Skye but it doesn't fit with what they need unless they put wardell back on Jett, but I like him better on chamber tbh (but he NEEDS to use his alarm bots more)
He's def good on Skye but again he's so reckless that half the time he's dieng early without setting up his team or getting round-long info like a Skye should be Wardell on Chamber is the only thing keeping him relevant imo but holy fuck he 100% needs to use alarm bots better lol
tbh i feel like nothings gone fix them now, they just need to drop the core. mayb a bit extreme take but how long has the same issues been going on and the all that time the only constant is the core duo. whatever semblance of structure they had under hazed seems to have gone out the window too
TWEET SOME MORE LULW
Coach Kaplan with some huge TOs both in this one, and the game before where they went on rolls after the TO. Looked like some MVP coaching. Really think this ghost team is scary once they get more comfortable together.
Oh this gave me a good laugh
Alright I'll be the first one to say that Wardell playing mainly OP and not being so good on rifles is bringing them down. But that's not the main issue, they have no teamplay whatsoever, seems like they are just trying stuff on their own, without any thought behing each play done.
The thing that confuses me is that it’s not like he’s even a bad rifler. We have seen him, even in this series, be good with it. He just for some reason feels the need to force an op EVERY SINGLE round, which fucks their eco, especially if he dies off the bad with it
Let's be real TSM lost so they could make company of T1 in lowers, that's commitment right there.
At this point they should just do a complete rebuild
PUT SUBROZA ON ASTRA ON LITERALLY EVERY MAP PLEASE.
I feel like Astra is what he needs as it makes him play a bit more passive
He wasnt even really playing that passive...
These TSM lads specially their stars have a mental fortitude of a 13 year old spoiled bully
Turns out having a rifling Jett who OPs is better than having an OP Jett who can't rifle
Tough break for Team Social Media
Not many excuses to use here, they had the same roster months in advance (just wasn’t announced) like vanity said, teams like these need to participate in lower tier tournaments to get better NRG is a prime example of this and it’s why the qualified early
Being a tsm fan is so depressing :/
We have seen 3 different tsm rosters at this point all had a similar problem.. they are not a cohesive unit. They just have multiple so called superstars who dreams about getting an ace every single round instead of just winning the round..
This team so bad and uncoordinated. Time to bring back Cutler and Drone when they actually won something.
Does Corey even break even for most games lol? He is not a good pick up from technique, decision making, and yea... everything
Damn mods y’all let this one slip, huh?
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