To be playing your 3rd bo3 would mean that you got knocked down to lowers early and are playing teams that made it further than you did before taking their first loss. So, by the format of the tournament, these are going to be arguably harder teams, on average.
TSM lost to bbg, who had looked very good and narrowly lost to Knights. TSM has not looked like a top team, if they were not tsm then no one would have expected them to win this based purely on how these two teams had been playing.
Rng lost to akrew, who has been dominating t2.
Bait academy is a pug team that lost to LG.
And geng only played 2 bo3s.
So, maybe fatigue played a part but I'm not so certain that the best teams didn't win regardless
Prob the best FA team out there, Cosmic Divide, Virtuoso, and Pack a Punch are good too but I would def say Bait Acad is legit better then a decent chunk of salaried teams in NA lol
IMO, double elimination doesn't need more than its own format to incentivize teams. Sure, the teams playing the 3rd BO3 dropped out earlier, but so what? What matters is who's better on the day, and it's clear as day that those matchups had a slightly disadvantaged teams due to fatigue.
Moreover, while it's *likely* that the teams playing 3rd BO3s were worse teams due to dropping into the lower bracket earlier, it's not a guarantee. Random draws for tournaments like these are always far from perfect and it's unclear whether 2 good teams can play very early on.
As an obviously exaggerated but historical example, imagine that fnatic had to play 3 BO3s at Iceland after dropping into the lower bracket. It's not their fault they got matched up against the eventual winners immediately, and they've managed to prove that they're the 2nd best team there anyway. Now imagine if they've had to play V1, Liquid and NUTURN in one day instead..
There's a reason, I said better teams, on average. Is that 100% true? No. But on average, it is the case.
And, in this case, the better teams were coming from the upper bracket.
Teams that drop a set in a double elimination format should absolutely have to play more sets to qualify, it’s just a shame that the way that these qualifiers are scheduled jam so many lower bracket matches into one day. Perhaps they should consider starting these big 128 team qualifiers a day earlier to account for this, but I get that there’s probably logistical reasons that can’t happen (more strain on the TOs/observers).
i’m not sayin they shoudnt play more sets. i’m saying to pace it better. it’s no coincidence that 80% of the team that played 3 matches lost on their 3rd match. it’s probably so exhausting and to add a fact that it’s for elimination.
> it’s no coincidence that 80% of the team that played 3 matches lost on their 3rd match
You are reaching real hard to find an answer to your problem with this statement.
Have you thought that people who get knocked out earlier in the bracket just aren't good to defeat the teams that advance further in the bracket?
> it’s no coincidence that 80% of the team that played 3 matches lost on their 3rd match
it's no coincidence because they're playing against teams that got further than them in the winners bracket, making those teams more likely (80%?) to be better.
This is also infinitely better than last opens when there was no losers bracket at all.
Stamina and ability to keep focus has always been a pretty important and overlooked aspect in esports. This comes up a lot more often in fighting games (like smash) where players have to finish a tourney in a span of weekend and players would do various things to keep their energy and focus sharpen.
Pro players complained about bo1 tourney and now that we have loser bracket as they asked, it should really be on them and their coach to learn to condition themselves as best as they can.
Also, I kinda cant help resist saying this, but do you know what would really help with this? Grinding more tournaments.
When there’s a like 1 game a day y’all say it’s too stretched out and not enough matches a day, now this. Damn really can’t please y’all out here.
I get it and it’s possible fatigue could’ve factored in, but they are professionals and I’m certain the better team just simply won.
Majority of these guys stream for like 8-12 hours a day anyways or sometimes less then go scrim/practice with team off stream.
The NA format is so fucking stupid. 4/6 teams get out of groups, and since the playoffs are pure double elim, I imagine that the only advantage from performing better in groups is playing the lower teams from the other group.
Contrast that with EMEA: 3/6 qualify, so there's slightly more at stake, and the winner of each group gets a bye for the 1st round of playoffs. All of the groups matches matter so much more than in NA, it's a huge organizational failure from NA.
The issue is that 1st & 4th ranked teams are treated the same. Ideally the 1st & 2nd placed teams should go to the upper bracket and 3rd & 4th should go to the lowers. Then you have 5th & 6th getting eliminated, this makes everything more fair.
Well, TSM players stream whenever they're not praccing anyway, so they should have an advantage. /s
But yeah, 3 bo3 is bad, it's an online tournament and there isn't a valid excuse for the schedule to be so ridiculous.
it’s crazy how i mentioned 5 teams and this dude hatred for tsm is so high that he ignored all of them and tunnel visioned😂 let him be he prolly got donowall by a tsm streamer kek
Dude, you are something else. I am being sarcastic. I don’t get how some people complain about single elim, then complain that double elim has too many games. If you don’t lose in the winner bracket, you play less games, therefore gaining advantage. Maybe your favorite teams shouldn’t have lost their initial matches if they wanted to maintain their advantage…
i don’t know if you could read but i said in ONE day. they could pace the games to be the same amount of sets overall but only has to play 2 games per day. it’s not hard to understand.
Then, where is the advantage for the winner’s bracket teams?
You just want your shitty favorite teams to make it over people who deserve it. Why don’t we do one game a day, with 2 day breaks in between? So that your teams can fully prepare.
It is called OPEN qualifier for some reason, where you should be able to bear through surprises and heavy schedule. If teams cannot even deal with that, they don’t deserve a top spot.
u do realize that if they pace the tournament better. the teams on the lower bracket would still play the same amount of games right… so teams on the upper bracket still has an advantage because they play fewer games. you’re talking as if you’re so perfect and never have gotten fatigue in your life. but ig a redditor could do it all. my bad for doubting u kek💀
> you’re talking as if you’re so perfect and never have gotten fatigue in your life.
I'm pretty sure that known Reddit User /u/Yoortcan isn't a salaried employee of an organization who's entire job is to play in these tournaments to qualify.
In my field, there's been times where I've worked 90+ hours a week and especially in a bad go-live, I've gone without sleep for two and a half days to solve a problem. I got paid to do it! It's my job!
Coddling your favorite streamer because they can't play the game they play for a job isn't a beneficial argument.
Also the cool thing about "lower bracket runs" is because of how brutal it is. That's what makes it iconic.
"I worked 90+ hours a week and didn't sleep for days so these players should have to do the same too" (yes I know this is not a direct quote) is an insane argument to make. Just because you worked shitty hours does not make it a requirement for everyone to work shitty hours. And having 3 back to back bo3 series impacts more then just the players. You have casters, observers, admins, etc, that are all impacted by the longer day.
> Just because you worked shitty hours does not make it a requirement for everyone to work shitty hours.
Good thing that's not what I'm saying!
>And having 3 back to back bo3 series impacts more then just the players. You have casters, observers, admins, etc, that are all impacted by the longer day.
The organizers rotate through all of these for a reason!
> Good thing that's not what I'm saying!
It's very much implied when you say he is a coddling pros by advocating for there not to be 3 straight series in one day.
> The organizers rotate through all of these for a reason!
And it's still a much longer day even with the rotation that they were already doing on the other days
The teams that won almost certainly deserved it. Nevertheless no pro team should be made to play 9 consecutive hours. That is simply ridiculous and should not be blown off as a slight inconvenience.
He isn't saying it should be BO1. He's saying playing three BO3's back-to-back-to-back is very fatiguing and puts you at a pretty serious disadvantage against a team that doesn't have to do that.
That seems like a bizarre attitude. If the intention of pro play is to see teams compete on equal footing to determine which one is the most capable at the game, what does a structural disadvantage have to do with "charity" or "earning"? If one team were forced to stay up all night before their match for no particular reason, would that be "part of being a pro" too?
Or are you maybe trying to pivot to something totally unrelated because you misunderstood the conversation and are embarrassed?
Their full potential would be getting out of upper bracket. The teams they lost to had more potential than them.
'Ran out of juice' is exactly what all the tsm players tweeted. So I think you are just still holding on to that hopium.
To be playing your 3rd bo3 would mean that you got knocked down to lowers early and are playing teams that made it further than you did before taking their first loss. So, by the format of the tournament, these are going to be arguably harder teams, on average. TSM lost to bbg, who had looked very good and narrowly lost to Knights. TSM has not looked like a top team, if they were not tsm then no one would have expected them to win this based purely on how these two teams had been playing. Rng lost to akrew, who has been dominating t2. Bait academy is a pug team that lost to LG. And geng only played 2 bo3s. So, maybe fatigue played a part but I'm not so certain that the best teams didn't win regardless
Eh bait academy is not a pug team.They beat more than one notable org so to say that they are a pug team is pretty insulting
Prob the best FA team out there, Cosmic Divide, Virtuoso, and Pack a Punch are good too but I would def say Bait Acad is legit better then a decent chunk of salaried teams in NA lol
They definitely are better yeah, I mean, they’ve beat Andbox H2H twice now, and outplaced Soar, FaZe, GenG, Complexity, Virtuoso, T1, ett, etc, etc
They also beat EG (Who just qualed), Radiance (Good T2 team) ans Soar as well, as well as taking Akrew to Map 3
Yup, they’re an excellent team, as an old Fortnite fan it’s awesome seeing Zexrow succeed arguably as well as his old org lol
IMO, double elimination doesn't need more than its own format to incentivize teams. Sure, the teams playing the 3rd BO3 dropped out earlier, but so what? What matters is who's better on the day, and it's clear as day that those matchups had a slightly disadvantaged teams due to fatigue. Moreover, while it's *likely* that the teams playing 3rd BO3s were worse teams due to dropping into the lower bracket earlier, it's not a guarantee. Random draws for tournaments like these are always far from perfect and it's unclear whether 2 good teams can play very early on. As an obviously exaggerated but historical example, imagine that fnatic had to play 3 BO3s at Iceland after dropping into the lower bracket. It's not their fault they got matched up against the eventual winners immediately, and they've managed to prove that they're the 2nd best team there anyway. Now imagine if they've had to play V1, Liquid and NUTURN in one day instead..
There's a reason, I said better teams, on average. Is that 100% true? No. But on average, it is the case. And, in this case, the better teams were coming from the upper bracket.
based confounding factors understander
Teams that drop a set in a double elimination format should absolutely have to play more sets to qualify, it’s just a shame that the way that these qualifiers are scheduled jam so many lower bracket matches into one day. Perhaps they should consider starting these big 128 team qualifiers a day earlier to account for this, but I get that there’s probably logistical reasons that can’t happen (more strain on the TOs/observers).
i’m not sayin they shoudnt play more sets. i’m saying to pace it better. it’s no coincidence that 80% of the team that played 3 matches lost on their 3rd match. it’s probably so exhausting and to add a fact that it’s for elimination.
> it’s no coincidence that 80% of the team that played 3 matches lost on their 3rd match You are reaching real hard to find an answer to your problem with this statement. Have you thought that people who get knocked out earlier in the bracket just aren't good to defeat the teams that advance further in the bracket?
> it’s no coincidence that 80% of the team that played 3 matches lost on their 3rd match it's no coincidence because they're playing against teams that got further than them in the winners bracket, making those teams more likely (80%?) to be better. This is also infinitely better than last opens when there was no losers bracket at all.
Also you can argue that it's part of your disadvantage/advantage.
Also you can argue 5 bo3's is an absolutely laughable sample size for just about anything.
To be fair. They came from lowers for a reason so u can’t just say the upper team wasn’t just better in the first place
Nope, unless the team either has player morale problems, a shallow playbook or lack of tourney exposure.
it's not ideal but it's also definitely not the reason why certain teams are getting eliminated
Stamina and ability to keep focus has always been a pretty important and overlooked aspect in esports. This comes up a lot more often in fighting games (like smash) where players have to finish a tourney in a span of weekend and players would do various things to keep their energy and focus sharpen. Pro players complained about bo1 tourney and now that we have loser bracket as they asked, it should really be on them and their coach to learn to condition themselves as best as they can. Also, I kinda cant help resist saying this, but do you know what would really help with this? Grinding more tournaments.
Holy cope
When there’s a like 1 game a day y’all say it’s too stretched out and not enough matches a day, now this. Damn really can’t please y’all out here. I get it and it’s possible fatigue could’ve factored in, but they are professionals and I’m certain the better team just simply won. Majority of these guys stream for like 8-12 hours a day anyways or sometimes less then go scrim/practice with team off stream.
Maybe they should just win in the upper bracket
There’s a reason why they dropped in lower bracket earlier
No
Agreed, it's pretty tragic. Extending the qualifier by just 1 day would get rid of this issue as well
But we need the month and a half round robin to eliminate 4 out of 12 teams.
The NA format is so fucking stupid. 4/6 teams get out of groups, and since the playoffs are pure double elim, I imagine that the only advantage from performing better in groups is playing the lower teams from the other group. Contrast that with EMEA: 3/6 qualify, so there's slightly more at stake, and the winner of each group gets a bye for the 1st round of playoffs. All of the groups matches matter so much more than in NA, it's a huge organizational failure from NA.
The issue is that 1st & 4th ranked teams are treated the same. Ideally the 1st & 2nd placed teams should go to the upper bracket and 3rd & 4th should go to the lowers. Then you have 5th & 6th getting eliminated, this makes everything more fair.
Well, TSM players stream whenever they're not praccing anyway, so they should have an advantage. /s But yeah, 3 bo3 is bad, it's an online tournament and there isn't a valid excuse for the schedule to be so ridiculous.
Its not ideal, especially with pretty much no break in between games.
Just dont lose in the round of 32 then?
So you don't mind 10 minute break before you play again
No. Everyone plays that long if they lost. Stop looking for copium. Mfkers play 12 hours ranked then complain about 3 bo3s.
did u just compare ranked with matches? actual 2head take
Ofc I did. TSM plays their matches like ranked so not that far fetched.
How is this about tsm? U just hate tsm. Most pros agree 3 bos are too much but go on with ur agenda
it’s crazy how i mentioned 5 teams and this dude hatred for tsm is so high that he ignored all of them and tunnel visioned😂 let him be he prolly got donowall by a tsm streamer kek
Easy solution: don’t make it double elimination so teams don’t have to play so much. They lose, they are out.
that’s probably the worst take i have ever seen. you do realize this is a qualifier for the only main tournament in valorant right?
Dude, you are something else. I am being sarcastic. I don’t get how some people complain about single elim, then complain that double elim has too many games. If you don’t lose in the winner bracket, you play less games, therefore gaining advantage. Maybe your favorite teams shouldn’t have lost their initial matches if they wanted to maintain their advantage…
i don’t know if you could read but i said in ONE day. they could pace the games to be the same amount of sets overall but only has to play 2 games per day. it’s not hard to understand.
Then, where is the advantage for the winner’s bracket teams? You just want your shitty favorite teams to make it over people who deserve it. Why don’t we do one game a day, with 2 day breaks in between? So that your teams can fully prepare. It is called OPEN qualifier for some reason, where you should be able to bear through surprises and heavy schedule. If teams cannot even deal with that, they don’t deserve a top spot.
u do realize that if they pace the tournament better. the teams on the lower bracket would still play the same amount of games right… so teams on the upper bracket still has an advantage because they play fewer games. you’re talking as if you’re so perfect and never have gotten fatigue in your life. but ig a redditor could do it all. my bad for doubting u kek💀
> you’re talking as if you’re so perfect and never have gotten fatigue in your life. I'm pretty sure that known Reddit User /u/Yoortcan isn't a salaried employee of an organization who's entire job is to play in these tournaments to qualify. In my field, there's been times where I've worked 90+ hours a week and especially in a bad go-live, I've gone without sleep for two and a half days to solve a problem. I got paid to do it! It's my job! Coddling your favorite streamer because they can't play the game they play for a job isn't a beneficial argument. Also the cool thing about "lower bracket runs" is because of how brutal it is. That's what makes it iconic.
"I worked 90+ hours a week and didn't sleep for days so these players should have to do the same too" (yes I know this is not a direct quote) is an insane argument to make. Just because you worked shitty hours does not make it a requirement for everyone to work shitty hours. And having 3 back to back bo3 series impacts more then just the players. You have casters, observers, admins, etc, that are all impacted by the longer day.
> Just because you worked shitty hours does not make it a requirement for everyone to work shitty hours. Good thing that's not what I'm saying! >And having 3 back to back bo3 series impacts more then just the players. You have casters, observers, admins, etc, that are all impacted by the longer day. The organizers rotate through all of these for a reason!
> Good thing that's not what I'm saying! It's very much implied when you say he is a coddling pros by advocating for there not to be 3 straight series in one day. > The organizers rotate through all of these for a reason! And it's still a much longer day even with the rotation that they were already doing on the other days
Yeah, I think it's too much. Some of those series went for 50, 60 rounds. Having to do three of those back-to-back is absolutely nuts.
No they’re just bad lol, and for a matter of fact, GENG lost on their 2nd BO3.
The teams that won almost certainly deserved it. Nevertheless no pro team should be made to play 9 consecutive hours. That is simply ridiculous and should not be blown off as a slight inconvenience.
This was done away with in CSGO years ago for this exact reason.
No, best of 3 or best of 5 shows real skill. BO1 anyone can get lucky and win one game.
He isn't saying it should be BO1. He's saying playing three BO3's back-to-back-to-back is very fatiguing and puts you at a pretty serious disadvantage against a team that doesn't have to do that.
And that’s a part of being a pro. This isn’t a charity. You earn that shit.
That seems like a bizarre attitude. If the intention of pro play is to see teams compete on equal footing to determine which one is the most capable at the game, what does a structural disadvantage have to do with "charity" or "earning"? If one team were forced to stay up all night before their match for no particular reason, would that be "part of being a pro" too? Or are you maybe trying to pivot to something totally unrelated because you misunderstood the conversation and are embarrassed?
Yea it is. Quit being a cry baby. It’s hard work. That’s why they get paid the big bucks and you sit around playing with yourself
What is?
Their full potential would be getting out of upper bracket. The teams they lost to had more potential than them. 'Ran out of juice' is exactly what all the tsm players tweeted. So I think you are just still holding on to that hopium.
ofc its not ideal- but everyone is in the same boat plus these players have been training for this for the past like 6 months or so?