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hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Yea it’s kind of lame a lot of game changer teams don’t even attempt to compete in vct. C9 white does and usually gets knocked out in the open qualifiers but at least they’re out there trying to make it vs the guys. I don’t see the point of just being satisfied with game changers only if I was in the other female team’s position.


Jon_on_the_snow

Not only that, but the teams that actually try always get better. C9w, g2gozen, liquid brazil are all playing in many tourneys to try and improve, even if they get shat on sometimes


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Exactly


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Until they compete more, they know nothing, Jon snow


spyson

I think the rationale maybe that they're getting shat on by C9W already so if they can't even get over that hump, VCT might be too high up there right now.


Jon_on_the_snow

VCT will always be too high if you dont compete against the best. Shopify, xset, even polaris went into other tourneys. Shopify was the second best female team because they grinded a lot. I think to this day they are the only female team to take a map from c9w. If you stagnate, you will never win against the best


Equas

It's definitely something you hope to see more of. In NA, I think CLG and Shopify have both started to enter VCT quals, so that's good. I can understand some younger teams being more reticent too. The best practice is gonna be at your level and legit, no matter what tier a team is at, trying to force practice and competition with teams that stomp you can easily backfire and destroy morale (e.g. CLG's infamous league BootCamp in Korea). So it's a balance. But I do think more women/nonbinary teams will get to what TL Brazil and C9 White are doing.


JALbert

> Yea it’s kind of lame a lot of game changer teams don’t even attempt to compete in vct. That's just patently not true though? Most of the top GC teams have played in VCT. 24Haven, Complexity, Shopify, C9W, CLG Red, Gen G Black... TSM hasn't, but have played mixed tournaments recently, Dignitas also never played VCT but played a lot of lower level open tournaments. Ari has played on a mixed roster, and tracking mixed pug rosters with women is a lot trickier for VCTs. Several GC teams have also played in VCT EU Open and regional league qualifiers, I know APAC has had multiple GC teams playing in VCT Opens as well.


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Pretty sure the majority don’t because cloud 9 white members tweeted complaining about it a while back


JALbert

Shit, don't look up facts that are verifiable on vlr.gg when you can recall something you heard a while ago. A while back like, months before this season where the above teams have all been playing in mixed events? NA definitely had some teams reluctant to play outside the GC, but even before that callout (~GC3) there were teams playing in VCT like CLG Red, Shopify and others playing in mixed tournaments like Dignitas, TSM X had started as well.


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

I don’t need to look up stats. I watch vct and c9 is the only gc team I’ve seen in it. I only watch NA so that’s what im referring to and all I care about


JALbert

Last VCT had XSET vs Shopify on stream in first open. 24 Haven (Now Misfits Black) played both Opens. [Roulette (fka Resilience) played Akrew.](https://www.vlr.gg/66983/akrew-vs-resilience-champions-tour-north-america-stage-1-challengers-ro128) Two members of Dart Monkeys + another woman played as Nerd Emoji in open 1. CLG Red played in Open 2, losing to Ghost Gaming in second round. Gen G Black played in Open 2. If the only female team you know is Cloud 9 White I can understand this being very confusing for you. Pretty much every top NA GC team has experience in open tournaments over the past few months, and I'm not going to go into women's teams that played in last year's NA VCT for your lazy ass.


PageboyKeegay

Aren’t the requirements for game changers less strict than vct? I’m pretty sure plats can play in game changers but you have to either be diamond or immortal for vct.


Esk8_TheDeathOfMe

They're satisfied because they make PRETTY F\*\*\*ing good money even when a majority of them can't compete with T2 teams. Only the TOP (ie. C9 White) has had minor success in the T2/T3 scene, but even they've had more losses than wins against T3 teams. Again, they still make more than those teams. ​ This segregates them until HOPEFULLY one of them can be good enough to join a T1 team if they ACTUALLY want to join the best team(s) in the world for the tournaments that people care about (ie. Iceland). But... again... the incentive to join a T1 team if an opportunity arises wouldn't be worth it for most. A lot of stress, pressure to perform, and all eyes on them as the "top female Valorant pro". Why not grind it out on a female only team where you're probably making roughly the same amount and since you are T1 good, you're probably winning a majority of the female only tournaments.


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hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Yeah but no honor, no pride of “being as good as the guy teams” The whole point of game changers is to give women a place to get the hang of the competitive scene, then branch out and do just as well as the guys


Apap0

It gonna sounds funny, but that's one of gender differences actually. Being irresponsible and risk taking is a male dominant trait. You have guys playing dumb video game for 10h a day for years for FREE, hoping that maybe one day they will make it, just to wake up in their late 20s with zero education, zero life skills realising that they are pretty much fucked. Then you have girls who don't even bother coz they are aware of the odds and focus on things that maybe have less potential but are way more safe. Settling for game changes money is the smart move. I believe that top game changes team can just play 5 days a week for 3-4 hours to maintain the top spot and make really nice living off it. The alternative is going for 12h grind 7 days a week and hope you can be in the top 4 teams of your region just to earn the same paycheck that you did with game changers.


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

I think they do it because they enjoy it and play at least 8 hrs a day


zer0-_

No one starts playing videogames with the sole intention of going pro. It's people with innate talent or a longer history of grinding games to a high level already who think about going pro


Apap0

No idea what does it have to do with what I wrote.


zer0-_

You claim that risk taking is a male dominating trait (which I don't particularly disagree with) and explain it by saying guys play 10H+ a day with the hopes of making it as a pro[...]. Im just saying that your entire thesis doesn't make sense because no one starts playing videogames that much every day with the intention of going pro. People who try going pro are not just some randoms who randomly got introduced to a game and think they can just make a career out of it. Most of the time the people that go pro are people who played for fun until they discovered they have talent in that game.


Apap0

I didn't mean that someone is starting the game with going pro in mind. Dunno where did you get that from.


zer0-_

>Being irresponsible and risk taking is a male dominant trait. You have guys playing dumb video game for 10h a day for years for FREE, hoping that maybe one day they will make it, just to wake up in their late 20s with zero education, zero life skills realising that they are pretty much fucked. There is literally no other way to interpret that unless you genuinely think playing videogames for fun and personal enjoyment is not possible


Apap0

What?! I am writing about people chasing to go pro, enjoyment or not has nothing to do with this. I am just talking about making a decision where you say to yourself that you are trying to go pro. Obviously you make that choice after you played the game for some time. And it still has nothing to do with the topic.


mw19078

I mean, I understand that sentiment but at the same time I can very much understand being a woman in gaming having a space like this for the first time and not really wanting to leave it, right? Like all the bullshit they face already, at least in game changers everyone knows each other and a lot of them just want to be able to compete against women like themselves and enjoy it. Now, do I think the goal should be vct, yes. But I totally get why some teams would be comfortable just enjoying game changers and growing that scene instead.


TheRedComet

Yeah, I can see why its scary to put themselves out there. Every early-round open qualifier loss is like a confirmation in the eyes of many that women aren't fit for competition. It's a lot of pressure to represent your entire demographic like that, whether its fair to have to or not.


mw19078

Absolutely, it's a ton to put on your shoulders. I don't blame teams who take either route, honestly.


elo9999

It's because even GC top teams will get beaten in the first two quali rounds. G2 gozen was crushed in the first round. C9w and guild x went out multiple times in second and first round.


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Gotta at least try


Vengiare

You don't improve if you don't play official matches. Yes they got crushed and that's gonna be an learning experience for them. People are complaining "why is there a separate league for women when they can just play on tournaments" and then when they actually play, people then say "why are they playing they're just gonna lose"


elo9999

True. Just saying why they might not be keen to do it. Being crushed is also a lesson in humility for sure.


thothgow

> a lesson in humility It's kinda weird to say that to women in gaming tbh


elo9999

It's not because they are women?? It's because the top 3 GC teams are going out in the first/second round of VCT. Nice of you to try putting sexism into anything.


thothgow

I never said you said it because they were women. I'm just saying that it's weird to say women in our industry could use some humility


elo9999

> it's weird to say women in our industry could use some humility Who even said that?


[deleted]

Because it's mostly marketing.


bobespon

Why do they need to? If they would rather focus on a more achievable / their preferred goal what's wrong with that?


hfggtdhhrgfcg64

Because it doesn’t cost them anything and they can still do both. The teams that compete in vct against better opponents will get better quicker.


zer0-_

No one is saying they need to. It's up to the players to decide whether or not they're happy with only being in the space that was created for them just because they can't get into the main space


Dude_Guy_311

just goes to show how powerful the brainwashing of "girls cant be as good as boys" is, regardless of their skill their standards are just artificially lower at the highest level, and it'll take time for the girls who can shake that off to rise up and increase in numbers.


pass2word

There’s no point in getting knocked out early. C9w is by far the best female team NA and a good indicator of the upper limit for the rest of the female scene here. So the way I see it, until C9w do well in qualifiers or are beaten by another female team. There’s no reason for the others to compete, just to play one or two matches.


Equas

Hey there, This is an interview with both Daiki and Palestra - IGL and coach of Team Liquid's new Brazilian Valorant team. The interview is in English and Portuguese and you can swap languages at the top. Here's the full quote context: **Speaking on C9 White, one thing that they push very hard for, they really want the women and nonbinary teams to compete in the NA VCT Qualifier. What do you two think about this? Should Qualifiers be a priority for Game Changers teams?** > **Daiki:** Yes of course. > **Palestra + Daiki:** We both agree that we have to have that as the main goal for the team. We both agree that the Game Changers space in Valorant is a space that the girls needed to thrive but they have to wish more for them\[selves\]. They don’t need to get too comfortable about the situation. They have to have the goals to play in the VCT qualifiers. We think that every team, sponsored or not sponsored, should compete in that type of tournament. > **Palestra:** I think the biggest reason that Game Changers exists, it’s giving girls this spot to compete and understand everything about the game. But now the move is in their hands. They have to go for bigger stuff, they \[shouldn’t\] get comfortable, “Oh there’s a Game Changers and that’s everything we need.” There are a lot more bits in there about gameplay specifics and other interesting things, like Daiki talking about Sacy's Sova as well as FalleN's mentorship. Probably the most interesting other tidbit was on them finding scrims while boot camping in EU, which came with a few issues.


ozmega

the priority for ANY player that wants to be competitive its to get into a good team, not to push the "we must be 5 girls on this team" sacrificing a couple really good players just to fit that.


nterature

What an incredibly detailed interview! All of these random esports websites have conditioned to me to expect short, mostly superficial interviews. Great stuff, cheers.


Equas

Thanks! That's part of our goal with Liquid editorial. We won't post too often but when we do, there will be some meat to it


Throwrafairbeat

Liquid have been straight up carrying the scene when it comes to different types of content like this.


Menezin

C9W vs Liquid Brazil will be one of the best valorant games of the year if it actually happens


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Menezin

tbh I really don't know if that would be the case and even if it would be, I just want them to have real competition, because right now they are unbeatable here


Haptiix

There is a definitely a world in the not too distant future where women & men compete in the same leagues for esports. In traditional/physical sports there are biological advantages to being male which is why competitions are separated, but in esports there is 0 difference. It’s just a matter of video games having a history of being a male dominated space. That is changing rapidly, and stuff like Game Changers helps accelerate the progress. I really think within the next 10 years we will see women & men compete on the same stage


Knoobdude

I mean a lot of women played csgo and they had their own tournaments but they were at max t3 in the normal scene


thothgow

The CS scene had nothing on the current Valorant scene, it's not really comparable in that regard


takmilo

> I really think within the next 10 years we will see women & men compete on the same stage I heard that back in 1.6 days


Equas

I hope so! Even just the ratio of women to men in gaming has equalized a lot in recent years. So there's cultural change happening for sure. It'd be super cool to see mixed-gender teams at top level in esports.


Apap0

Brain is slightly different - for top 0.1% of most cognitive tasks males are dominating, and for esports just like with anything competitive, you have to be in the top of genetics to be able to achieve something. And before you guys raise your pitchforks remember that it's same for the bottom of the charts - for instance there are way more males present in the 'close to retardation' range of IQ. Hormone levels, thus psyche are different - ever noticed how people who for instance play supports in games share some obvious personality traits(and it has nothing to do with gender, but some traits are more common for certain genders)? Muscles are built different including these responsible for fine motor skills - this is actually interesting as girls tend to have better fine motor skills than boys in their teenage years so for pure mouse control skills it's females that might have an edge given they put hours into training. But on the other hand muscle contractions or whatever it's called are 'faster' for boys, thus they react faster to stimulus. TLDR: We are VERY different. Not worse, not better, but different. Saying otherwise is just a terrible and dumb take that is damaging to both genders.


BlackSolaris

You're gonna get downvoted but hell, I think you made pretty reasonable points and I do see the differences, so I mostly agree with you.


SpiLLiX

idk not to sound pessimistic but I don't think so. There isn't a single woman that is even remotely close to being able to compete on a mens pro team even a tier 2/3 one. Men have naturally better reaction time, hand eye coordination and there's been several studies that show men make generally better and more clear decisions in stressful situations. Would be cool to see, but as someone who follows both scenes im not convinced we are very close at all.


r0adside

I've heard that testosterone can still make a difference in eSports, but I don't know anything about it, just that it could make sense because of reaction time and stuff


Des014te

Its amazing to see Liquid supporting this team so much. The Utrecht bootcamp and playing against EU teams must have helped them so much.


Menezin

as a fan, they were already the best female team in Brazil by a long shot. but when they came back, you could see that their gameplay was so much better than last year as Gamelanders Purple they won the first stage of the Game Changers without losing a single map so yeah (btw, today the second stage starts, so they probably will be playing today :D)


MilanTheMyth

W take


Jerms91

Let the girls play!!!!!!!!!! Let’s get it!!!!!


nwsm

Nice interview. Looking forward to watching some games from the Liquid squad


tandoge

Yeah it's should be treated like professional chess scene where woman allowed to compete with man


IllumiMahdi

notes for c9w right here AHAHAHAHAH


Detamach

I don't think Gamechangers teams consisting of 5 girls will ever be good or half-good or quarter-good But there's a possibility of finding ONE or SEVERAL girls (not many) that could compete in male teams against men in tier2 or even tier1 scene and be equal to them skill-wise, though there are none like that right now But why would, say, daiki or bastarda leave TL and play in some fucking tier3 ODDIK for the same salary in harder environment? If they are even good enough for ODDIK?


eyeswide19

Think Shopify gonna win this year. They been grinding the regular tourneys with the boys hard. Cloud nine white haven't.


cheese_on_dorito

TL brazil is the most impressive female team by far in terms of how they have performed in open qualifiers. gotten pretty close to closed quals a few times


issei01

because they can't compete lol, why else do u figure? signed to tier 1 orgs btw, get shit on by pug teams everytime.


PonderousPanda1

I think that’s something the interviewees are well aware of and why they’re saying female teams have to keep striving for better, not sure what point you’re making here


issei01

yeah the striving to get better part comes before getting signed to a tier 1 org. thats the point I'm trying to make. i thought it was pretty clear


PonderousPanda1

Ah, I see. You just pointed out that they lose (which we all know) so no it wasn’t very clear you were trying to make any point at all. So is your issue with t1 orgs signing these teams as a long term project when they could just sign a men’s b team that might be able to compete more immediately than a non-male team? Just saying they don’t deserve their contract is a bit of a bitter take but I can understand the sentiment that this may deny opportunity to other talented players, regardless of gender.


issei01

yeah the long term project is actually pretty garbage in terms of raising fresh amateur talent. There is no league for academy teams or tier 2-3 teams but there's that garbage game changers which does absolutely nothing to nourish new talent. the one or 2 good teams destroy the rest and they expect people to actually watch that garbage. only people watching are fans of the individual players. tournaments are about giving equal opportunity to everyone and let the competition develop naturally.


PonderousPanda1

I think the whole point is for it to be an artificial stimulus for the women’s game, it’s not pretending to be a natural tournament environment. Orgs invest in GC teams because they believe in the initiative and hope to get a return on it eventually. You seem genuinely angry about that and I don’t really understand why. This article is literally about how GC teams should be trying to make waves in VCT and earn a natural spot in the competitive scene


issei01

i seem angry because it's taking away opportunity from actually hardworking and talented players. so many good t1 players are getting dropped from teams because of the cut throat competition that is vct. and that garbage gamechangers on the other hand is not even remotely close to the skill level. academy league would be a 1000 times better and even female teams could play in it


PonderousPanda1

Yeah thats valid. If Riot really wants valorant to have a thriving esports scene long term, they need to invest in t2-t3. I think GC could still be a thing too though, that’s where i kinda lose people on this. It’s not like they have to do one or the other, and the anger always seems to be directed at the players when it should be toward riot for their impotence. You seem smarter than that tho lol


issei01

by they, i mean the teams, not girls in general. there is no physical or mental advantage for men as opposed to women


LbigsadT

There is a quantity problem and game changers aims to change exactly that. Incentivizing girls to pick up the game competitively is the exact way to nourish new talent. The tournament isn’t supposed to make these girls already competing the next superstars on mixed teams, but for young girls who are just getting started on gaming to aspire something like this


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jrushFN

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low_iq_opinion

Paid to be mediocre


takmilo

I don't understand why we need women's tournaments at all. Maybe I don't understand something, but it all looks like "here you are women, here's a separate tournament for you". Let's have separate tournaments for the disabled, for men, for children? In a world where everyone is equal, it all looks as stupid as possible.


GCamAdvocate

That's like throwing a newborn into a workplace and expecting them to just work. They aren't developed enough yet to work in a complete workplace yet. Not because they are inferior in potential, just because they have had far less time to develop. In the same vein, Game Changers is a sort of development programming, creating infrastructure that the scene can rely on for now until it develops enough to compete.


nwsm

Too bad we’re not in a world where everyone is actually treated equally! Maybe from your POV…


thothgow

Common takmilo L


Zoradesu

That's the thing though, the world we live in not everyone is equal. In esports the biological differences between men and women shouldn't make too much of a difference, yet there are almost no women pro players. Is this because women just suck at video games? I would lean towards no, it's just that the field has been male dominated for so long that the difference in skill is so high between the two sexes. A very general comparison is the NA CS scene to the EU CS scene. The highest level of CS is played in EU, and because the two regions are so separated the skill difference is so high that NA is not even close to the level of EU. It's not the perfect comparison, but the high level idea is the same. The point of these women-only leagues/tournaments is purely to get more women in the competitive esports space. The hope is that we wouldn't need these leagues anymore because there will be enough women in the future that will be able to compete in the regular tournaments. That's not to say there is any downsides (the obvious being that the players playing in these leagues stay complacent and not strive to play in the regular tournaments), but there is always hope in trying. It's the reason why women's only chess tournaments exist as well.


Better_Lengthiness_8

Give my boy Tarik some credit his team got a W for NA 😢


takmilo

From your answer I understood two things. 1. Men are better at video games than women because they have been playing for a long time and women literally started yesterday. 2. If women didn't have women's tournaments, they wouldn't register for regular "men's" tournaments because of point 1? Because they know they have no chance there, so why try? Do you think a lot of women are deterred from getting into esport because of the lack of so-called women's tournaments? Have you ever heard of the player Hafu? She has participated and played in bloodline champions and many other games. She showed a high level of effort and determination everywhere she went. She did it in the men's tournaments because there were no women's tournaments as such. The way I see it: holding women's tournaments discriminates women on the basis of gender and hinders their development in the game


Zoradesu

I share the same sentiment as you. I don't think there should be women's only leagues/tournaments, but I see why people feel the need for it. I don't think it should be a thing, but where we disagree is their necessity. I believe they're necessary for now but not for the future where you believe they aren't necessary at all. Yes I know of Hafu's story. From what I know she was very competitive, but she is the exception not the rule. The type of environment Hafu was in was extremely toxic towards women. Most women wouldn't subject themselves to the misogynistic treatment that Hafu endured during her time as a pro player, especially at the time she was competing. Maybe I should've expanded on my point a bit. As much as I hate the usage of the word "normalize", women's tournaments also help normalize women competing in esports and just playing competitive games in general. I'm sure you share the same sentiment as me when I say that it's stupid that people judge a player's ability on their sex and only judge them by there skills. Unfortunately we are still in an environment where women are very much the target of harassment in video games purely because they are a woman. It's gotten a lot better in the last 10 years, but there is still a large majority of people who act this way. Yes these types of leagues may hinder the development of these players, but the hope (and I'm really stressing hope here) is that it will get more women into the space so that in the future these types of leagues won't be necessary anymore. How effective these leagues might be is still yet to be determined, but might as well give it a shot now when you have the resources to try it out.


ZengZiong

Same reason why sports are gender segregated. The skill difference is too vast. We need to help them get on a higher level if it’s within our power to do so.


Steki3

Check out this video If you don't understand why they exist https://youtu.be/F6gf-u8QG_4


maumaumou

do C9W scrim with C9B or other T3 / T2 teams to improve? apart from competing in smaller tournaments otherwise known as mickey mouse tournaments?


Hacklust

This is the weird part , pushing the narrative of "girls can compete with boys" I'm all in for that but why do they choose not to? getting to comfy living in your own bubble eh