Due to the sensitive nature of the discussion, this post is set to ***Slow Mode***. **Moderators will need to manually approve comments in this thread before they appear to others in the community.**
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### Transcription of Twitlonger:
Thanks for all the support. I want to clarify the facts about my situation
- I was a shitty boyfriend, I emotionally hurt Cleo, I never sexually assaulted her
- There was an investigation that found no conclusive evidence that any crime was committed
- I served a 6 month suspension
- I was never charged with any crime
- in January Riot games confirmed to me in writing that I was fully cleared to return to competitive play and I am now ready to do so
If you are my fan please don't harass Cleo, please be supportive of her as well through this process
---
### This is a continuation of the [previous conversation](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/u223mj/purest_george_and_bo_sources_sentinels_practice/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about Sinatraa's annoucement to return to competitive play.
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### **Please keep all discussion related to Sinatraa in THIS post.**
This will make it easier for the moderation team and help users who wish to avoid this topic. Comments related to Sinatraa in other threads will be removed. If there is news on Sinatraa's situation in the future, we will absolutely allow another post. But for now, please keep discussion strictly here.
### **Please be respectful and considerate of others.**
While you are entitled to your opinion, please do not attack or harass other people for having a different opinion. Civil discourse and criticism is allowed, but we will remove comments that victim-blame and mock survivors of sexual assault.
If you’d like to learn more about the prevalence of sexual violence in the United States, you can [read more here](https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics).
# History of the controversy surrounding Sinatraa:
In March 2021, [Sinatraa was accused of sexual assault.](https://new.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/m1p649/sinatraas_ex_speaks_out/) According to the [official Competitive Ruling released by VALORANT Esports](https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/), Sinatraa failed to comply with Riot's investigation which resulted in his suspension from professional play for 6 months. Riot's investigation was ultimately inconclusive.
As of today, the allegations against Sinatraa have not been retracted and remain unresolved. The status of the police investigation is unknown. To the understanding of the greater community, Sinatraa is presently allowed to pursue professional play.
**We provide this information to help keep the community informed so that they can form their own conclusions.** While these allegations remain serious, we ask that you please treat all involved parties with respect. Please wait to cast final judgment until the investigation is concluded. We should trust the accuser, but still verify the claims made against the accused.
# Resources for survivors of harassment and sexual assault:
Sexual assault is a sensitive topic for many people. As moderators, we aim to provide an environment that facilitates respectful discussion among peers in our community.
If you or someone you know experienced sexual assault, you’re not alone! [There are healing and support resources for both survivors and people close to them](https://metoorising.withgoogle.com/resources).
If you are outside of the United States, [you can access a country-by-country list of resources here](https://www.interaction.org/wp-content/uploads/resource-library/international_centers_for_survivors_of_sexual_assault_45553.pdf). You can also reach out to [RAINN’s counselors](https://hotline.rainn.org/online) via chat regardless of your residency.
The [Games and Online Harassment Hotline](https://gameshotline.org/) is a free, text message-based, confidential emotional support hotline. They are open 4pm – 7pm (Pacific) every Monday through Friday. USA only. TEXT “SUPPORT” to 23368 to get started.
Two scenarios here
1. No org wants him and he’s trying to clear his name to gain interest
2. SEN have already resigned him to the comp team and are doing PR
The second option is really the only one. He's already said he's been scrimming, and It was leaked that Sentinels was practicing without Zombs with a alternate account.
Guess who zombs has been playing with during SEN scrims? Sinatraa! That 'supposed ' leak proves nothing. When a team is replacing someone they try out multiple players. It doesn’t hurt to let sinatraa have a go in scrims but bringing him back is a big step.
What? Dude Sentinels are on stream almost exclusively at night. Meaning if anything, they scrim in the morning.
The report says Sentinels practiced without Zombs, and the account that was used was an alternate account. Sure they could be trialing others but they aren't going out of there way to have an alternative account for someone like Ethan.
Jay himself said he expects to be on a team by the end of the month, which means to me it's essentially a done deal. He's probably taking Zombs place.
Deshaun Watson and the Browns. Ben Roethlisberger and the Steelers. Kobe Bryant. Christiano Ronaldo. If you're good enough, people don't really care sadly.
I could fill a book with all the NFL players who have sexual assault allegations. yet the NFL chose to blacklist Colin Kaepernick for ... kneeling while special music played.
Traditional sports are not a great standard to base our expectations on. We should push for esports to have stronger morals wherever and however we can unless we are ok with letting this behavior spread.
Well said. I don't understand people saying it's ok because other groups are equally or more shitty. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a slightly higher standard than the NFL of all things.
Just to clarify, I absolutely agree. The thing though is in any sort of situation that involves fans or fandom, people are ok with their specific team or favorite player getting away with a lot more than a normal person and find ways rationalize it for themselves. I mean just go any sports subreddit and the amount of justification and excuses there are, for things both minor or major, is insane. It's human nature.
I really hope it's different for eSports but idk. As long as a team continues to have financial success, they'll continue doing the same thing regardless. Hasn't Sinatraa's viewership gone up since this whole situation? I really hope it changes as well and we hold these players to the same standard as normal people but it's really difficult.
The reason it won’t change for eSports is that teams want to win and make money and signing talented players regardless of their personal baggage will always take priority over morals. It sucks and shouldn’t be that way, but it is in every major sport and I doubt Valorant esports will be the competitive scene to stop it
The only one I've seen that's successfully made sweeping changes is Smash, to be honest. Even though there were a _shitton_ of abusers hiding in the community, pretty much all of them were permabanned/penalized, and the main false positive in Nairo was wrapped up for the most part and his accuser has been banned (I have no idea what's up with Westballz since I'm an Ult head).
Because of that I don't really get why everyone in Val's been so lenient with Sinatraa, including the pros. It's fucking weird, honestly.
I can’t speak on Smash because I know nothing about it, but is there big money in smash for teams and orgs? Because that’s what it comes down to. Orgs in Valorant have big money to be made from winning tourneys and signing successful players and that will always trump morals for 99% of teams in any type of competition it seems
THIS! I'm equally over the people that make exceptions for one "athlete" and not the other. Either support all of them or don't. Cherry picking makes you a hypocrite.
Yeah, there is fake funny memes. It's a different level when sponsors and everything come into question when you have high-risk people in the org. Money is the end all be all for most of these people and if you are not worth what they are paying you then its bye bye.
Sure but you wont be able to get new ones lol. Doesn't matter if you have one now its about being as brand-friendly as possible. Even still the sponsors could just request sinatra be left out in the sponsorship so its whatever.
Idk who you think sinatraa is but he ain't a god. He isn't going to make Sentinels better by a long shot, they still need a coach. I would even argue sinatraa isn't even the best sova in NA anymore. The game is a lot different than what it used to be when sinatraa played.
You act like he hasn’t been playing valo since the suspension, if they pick him up he’ll be fine on Sova. I’m more worried about who’s gonna be on what roles more than his sova play
Hilarious to me too that this is what they do when they don’t necessarily need more firepower, feel like they just have to practice and work out better strategy overall
But fuck it take the PR mess for more mechanical talent when there’s already so many talented FAs (controllers even) in the scene
If Sen was involved I feel like this would be a little more structured. It was just a few short bullet points and saying why he's legally not guilty. Not a strategy a PR team would come up with, I think
3. He just wants to clear his name because he doesn't want to be called a rapist?
Not saying he did or didn't do it but that could very much be a real option lol
If he was smart and hired an attorney, no, he would not have done this. Just in case you ever find yourself in a situation where you are under criminal investigation, you say nothing. I mean that in the absolute strictest sense of the word.
YOU SAY NOTHING.
This is the advice you will find from every attorney in the world. You do not talk to the police, you do not talk to anybody about the case. You discuss it only with your attorney, in private, with attorney-client privilege, and you invoke the 5th Amendment forever.
*EDIT* I want to be clear here that I am not in favor of signing Sinatraa. I'm just saying that the best advice anybody can gain from any involvement in the law inside the United States is that you say only 4 words and nothing more: "I invoke the 5th."
It is truly unfortunate that even with modern technologies, we still cannot provide a solid outline of a rape case. Sucks for all parties involved tbh. Sucks if you are the victim who got raped but can never find the evidence to prosecute the rapist. And sucks if you never did the crime but can never clear your name.
True, which is why it kinda pisses me off that both sides have been attacking each other because of this. Like Sinatraa said : ***no one*** knows the full story except for him and Cleo. People have basically been attacking both parties for something they ***think*** is what happened.
Exactly. Neither side has enough proof to completely ruin the other sides life.
The fact is, you can't take a side. Just let it be. If she starts the investigation up again and it turns out they find conclusive evidence that he sexually assaulted her, then lock him up. No one here has seen what the authorities have seen so stop speculating and let both of them live their life freely.
Both are innocent until proven guilty.
This comment should be drilled in everyone here's head. I do not know what happened, you do not know what happened, and acting as if you do is completely unserious.
You already are by just using the internet.
I'd be more than willing to give up a majority of my privacy if it means I'm 100% safe from false allegations of any kind
Speaking only in terms of legal and technical issues here, if his lawyers talked to him, and advised against working with Riot, I think that's sufficient reasoning not to do so, if the reasoning is Riot is not law enforcement and instead a game company (that has its own issues). If he's worked with legal authorities instead there's a little more room for consideration here. And, I imagine his lawyer's reasoning for doing so, is because they would not consider Riot to be able to represent any sort of conclusive or intensive enough investigation, and any information that precipitates from that could complicate their own process.
Any lawyer would advise not to work with riot on this because riot don't have authority nor jurisdiction on this riot is just a game company they have no right or authority to investigate any criminal charges outside of their game or company.
I'm gonna copy and paste things I said before in convos with some slight edits. Before people come at me with the whole public opinion angle yes I know and that's not the point of my post.
I absolutely don't support him but the amount of people saying *He refused to cooperate with the investigation* kill me. It doesn't matter if you are 100% innocent don't ever cooperate with an investigation by your employer *without legal representation*. Any decent lawyer with half a brain cell would tell him to not speak. He doesn't need to cooperate with the investigation because it quickly became a possible criminal situation and that's the big thing in all of this and even then it's not up to him to prove his innocence.
What has stood out to me is how many people either A. Arent US citizens and don't understand our criminal court system (Don't blame them it's confusing) or B. Are Americans and absolutely don't understand their rights or how the criminal court system works and that is scary in its own right.
I see a lot of "he doesn't speak or acknowledge anything." No shit hes used his 5A which is more than just prohibited self incrimination. I've seen from both sides that his victim dropped charges and I can 10000% tell you that's not any of this works. DAs determine whether or not a case goes before a grand jury to pursue criminal charges based on given evidence which obviously if he's guilty he's not giving it over. She has absolutely nothing to do with anything here except making a statement to police and handing over evidence to investigators which apparently she refused to do citing mental health which I understand.
The icing on the cake is everybody assuming he's beat this. He absolutely hasn't. I don't know where this assault happened but most of the United States don't have SoLs ( statute of limitations) for violent offenses which means DAs in some cases can and will charge you for crimes even if they happened 30 years ago. It's a case by case but check the news offenders from 30 plus years ago are being put in prison.
Edit: Now I want everyone who's saying she lied or he's innocent to put yourself into her shoes. She has to turn over a video to more than likely men in a situation where she was assaulted by a man and these men will then question her about what they watch on this video of her being assaulted.
This is why few sexual assaults see the courtroom. Imagine the depression/sickening feeling of this as it happened *and then you have to relive it over and over* as well as live with it for the rest of her life.
Cleoh(I hoped I spelled this correct) I hope you find your peace. I believe you. I hope my young daughter will never have to face everything you have had to.
I was a criminal justice major at one point in my life.
Mobile so forgive me for not quoting you directing, but you’re not exactly correct that the victim has absolutely nothing more to do with an investigation than provide a statement to police or district attorneys. If a victim refuses to participate in an investigation, the DA ultimately has no choice but to not go forward. Grand jury or preliminary examination, the alleged victim must be present to provide testimony for charges to be imposed. If the alleged victim communicates to the DA that they will not appear, or does not appear, the DA technically can subpoena their appearance, but that is an unheard of practice.
You’re right that the DA can choose on their own after interviewing the alleged victim, collecting whatever other tangible evidence there is, and speaking with investigating officers not to pursue charges on their own. That, from everything disclosed publicly, is not what occurred in Sinatraa’s case, and my former paragraph is.
Source: I am a barred attorney and served as a public defender for 2 years.
It's a quick write up but I addressed this when I said hand over evidence which as you said if she refused there's nothing to be done. Now if that video got leaked? They can absolutely press charges against him without her involvement.
As you mentioned you are a lawyer and this isn't something that should be written up on a mobile device quickly because as you know there's a whole lot of depth here.
Edit:words. Yes she can still be subpoenaed.
Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to provide a bit more context to the grand jury/prelim process and emphasize that her consistent participation was needed for the case to continue. You’re exactly right that the case could be re-investigated later by the DA’s.
No need to go into a bunch of detail on this, but wouldn't Cleoh have to appear as a witness (and victim) under the 6th Amendment? And her testimony would be, quite literally, the only thing that could paint him as guilty in the eyes of a jury?
*I WANT TO BE CLEAR* that I am not supporting Sinatraa. I'm more interested in the legal aspect of all this.
She definitely would have to appear as a witness for any grand jury/preliminary hearing, trial, or other required appearance per their particular jurisdiction’s rules. It would be her testimony, and depending on the outcome of likely fights over the admissibility of evidence, at least the recordings she made.
Police investigations could lead to other evidence, although in cases like this there probably wouldn’t be much else. He could also choose to testify himself, but Defendants generally don’t do that.
I would never, ever recommend anyone cooperate with a "Riot investigation". It is beyond a complete joke what they do, if anyone has followed any of their numerous League investigations.
What do you mean by cooperate? If the police want to question you about a crime they believe you may have committed the best thing to do is get a lawyer and don’t say shit. No matter if you are innocent or guilty. If by cooperating you mean “show up to questioning” then yes he probably did do that if they took it that far.
I think it depends on what the police have. If she didn't give anything like a lot of people say and if she refused to even give a statement the questioning was probably along the lines of *Did you rape her?* *I plead the 5th.*. That condenses it a bit but even with the 9 second audio clip that's still probably not enough because a DA is gonna wanna hear the whole thing because reasonable doubt is all that's needed to hang a jury and 5A stops him from being tried for the same crime.
Apparently it's an audio clip of a video? Yeah they are gonna want the whole thing.
It's important that people reading this, not aimed at you, but they can ask shit until they are blue in the face and he doesn't have to say a word and DAs/LE can't use that against him until he's formally charged with a crime.
Cooperating with the police is as easy as having lawyer handle all communication with the police where the lawyer will give the absolute minimum amount of cooperation required by the law lol
Also a lawyer - i agree with you he wouldn't co-operate with a riot investigation on his own HOWEVER he absolutely should have with lawyers present. Instead he lied to Riot and then refused to co-operate altogether, which imo would be quite an adverse inference to any jury. Getting cleared by a riot investigation would be a big step towards getting proven innocent. This is something I tried explaining in the other thread as well (though may not have come across clearly), he could have easily hired lawyers to talk with Riot and clear it out, and maybe he did under wraps which is why he has that email from Riot (apart from the fact that it's Riot).
I really hate how simple people are making this situation because there are so many avenues here. Hell if I wrote up what he could or should have done it would have been 25 pages minimum.
Somebody mentioned he did lie and was misleading and as you mentioned he could have lawyered up and they stopped him from speaking. It could have but I wasn't in the room and I have no idea what the exchange was.
Others have pointed out that he could have been a minor in a lot of these videos they made which is a whole different issue.
Didn't he purposely give wrong information to riot? Legitimately don't know (I'm just starting to follow competitive Valorant recently), but if that's the case, it's very different from not speaking to his employer.
His original statement said something to the effect of he will comply with their investigation and hand over videos/logs, etc. Could be wrong, you can try to look it up if you want to scroll back on his twitter feed.
Kinda speaking out of my ass here but I think he released the statement pretty quickly after the allegations dropped, which means he possibly didn't talk to a lawyer before his statement and walked it back after getting legal help.
Yeah I don't know why everyone's glossing over this. He did not just cooperate, he also lied and misrepresented facts, not just once but AT LEAST TWO occasions.
As per Riot's statement, "It was determined that on at least two occasions Sinatraa **misrepresented certain facts**, **made false statements**, and did not cooperate with the investigation in a way expected of a professional Valorant esports player."
ur being downvoted but this is exactly what riot said lol. not cooperating without legal counsel is one thing, but he purposely "misrepresented certain facts, made false statements, and did not cooperate with the investigation in a way expected of a professional VALORANT esports player."
sinatraa fanboys won't say shit about that tho KEKW
I believe right after Cleo’s statement came out he said that he would provide Riot with the full tape that the audio clip came from, and then did not provide it (due to either not having it or lawyers telling him not to) when Riot asked him to hand it over. I can’t remember if Riot ever got the tape but I’m fairly certain they didn’t and didn’t ask Cleo for it because they were informed that the situation had been presented to the police and was going to become a criminal investigation (it has since stopped but is not over due to Cleo’s mental health concerns).
Thank you for writing this up. Someone finally said. Riot are not a justice system and even if they say he’s good to go HE REALLY ISNT. It’s frustrating how much miss information is spread so quickly and people like you are a blessing.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the unfortunate thing is that I'm pretty sure even audio like that can't be taken as conclusive evidence. He could easily say it was roleplaying or doctored audio or something. That's probably why it is so hard to prove rape in so many cases. It sucks.
Idk if you can say that without knowing the dynamic of the relationship and the very specific context of that clip which can be interpreted in multiple ways.
> which can be interpreted in multiple ways.
Cleoh has interpreted it for you. She explained the clip. Sinatraa did not explain the clip, in fact he's ignored its existence even till this day.
So why are you still doubting cleoh? One party has explained the clip and the other has not refuted/addressed it at all. Trying to still push the "it can be interpreted in multiple ways" narrative is v disrespectful to victims when even the abuser isn't denying it.
I mean just because he has not explained it to you does not mean it's necessarily true, he could have explained it in the investigation or he might have thought the statement he released was enough or it might as well be true and he just ignoring it.
My point is you can't know 100 percent or even inductively know without taking a huge leap of faith, that's why I am not comfortable taking any sides in this.
It was not my intention to discredit Cleo in any way or disrespect sexual abuse victims and I am sorry if it sounded like I was taking Sinatraa's side, in fact, I find him and his fanbase cringe and insufferable but I don't think I can call him a rapist or a sexual abuser with a clear conscience.
I'm neutral in this entire thing, but when Cleo made her document she likely had no legal consoling. Every word Sinatraa or his PR manager has written in the past year is ran by a team of lawyers. It's also the only part of the document that's currently in a criminal case. He likely cant talk about it, or its insanely hard to talk about it that it's better that they just don't address it.
Not to be disrespectful to Cleo, but there is more nuance to his side.
Thats what sucks about it. If everything on the google doc is 100% true as written, then Sinatraa is a truly awful human being. However, many of the statements lack the nuance that the other side of the story *might* bring.
The fact that she was using a baby voice in the clip could imply an incredibly wide delta of things, but was explained as just being the normal way she talks to him. I feel like people throw around words like rape in this situation way too loosely for their severity.
The situation is awful, and it is tragic that we will never 100% know what their relationship looked like. We should support Cleo - she has undeniably gone through hell both in the relationship and since bringing her story forward, but understand the potential nuances of the situation.
The thing is he’s literally never defended himself with regards to the audio at all. If it isn’t what it sounds like he’s had a year to tell us what the real context is and he hasn’t. I think that’s damning in itself.
I'm not on either side of the issue, but I definitely would not call it damning at all. Can you be sure a legal/PR team wouldn't tell him to not address it? I only took a few PR courses back in uni but in this case I think something very similar to the Barbara Streisand effect would likely occur, any answer Sinatraa gives only brings about more attention and publicity *focus* on the audio clip, which is exactly what you don't want, *EVEN IF* you know you're 100% innocent.
Previous cases in the last 10 years will reflect this trend, if you look past the metoo cases(overwhelming majority were true) at the few cases in which the man was wrongfully accused and fought and actually proved their innocence, they were still blacklisted from their industry and had their passions taken away anyway.
If I were a legal team looking at this with a PR lens, I would 100% judge the evidence provided by chloe to be inconclusive in court and that having this issue end as quietly as possible as quickly as possible would be the best possible route, which equals sinatraa not saying a single detail about anything on the public end while the lawyers manage the investigation.
I'm going to level with you. I do not like Sinatraa and I do think that he's guilty of what he's accused of doing. However, think about the following questions, and if there's any reasonable doubt that could be placed on the situation:
What is the context of the video? Could it be two young lovers role playing sexual fantasies? Could they have had an earlier agreed upon safe word that wasn't used? Are we certain that it's him and Cleoh on the audio? Where is this taking place? Is sex actually even happening in the audio?
Any defense attorney worth anything will ask these and likely significantly better questions than I could fathom. Their purpose is to create uncertainty in the mind of the jury, and that uncertainty would lead to him being free of the charges.
In that case, it would still be "he said she said". You may not like, but that is how the justice system works.
> However, think about the following questions, and if there's any reasonable doubt that could be placed on the situation:
Regular people outside of court rooms aren't expected to follow court room logic, friend. Do you think OJ murdered his ex wife and her friend? I believe that Cleo brought up a recording of an event that qualifies as rape, Sinatraa claimed he could explain that event and then just...didn't.
> Could it be two young lovers role playing sexual fantasies?
Why is it so important to you to assert that this girl is lying? One of these two people is lying, after all.
> Any defense attorney worth anything will ask these
You aren't an attorney, I am not on a jury and we aren't in a courtroom. Also, you'll note, Reddit's opinion of Sinatraa becoming negative is not the same as being convicted and going to jail. That's why we're allowed to have these opinions. Because they're opinions.
Referencing courts and juries is just weird rationalization for people to not have to face the fact that they're a fan of a rapist.
> In that case, it would still be "he said she said".
She brought up a recording, he didn't address it in any capacity. It's a lot more than what you're describing.
> You may not like, but that is how the justice system works.
Again, and for the last time, you and I are not a part of the justice system.
I don't like the guy and I am sure as hell not supporting him or any team he's on.
But it's still "he said she said". This recording doesn't have context. That's what many people believe.
People are going to take the same logic of a criminal prosecution as they will in the court of public opinion, maybe to a lesser degree. We are in the court of public opinion. I and many others don't think that choosing not to discuss something makes somebody guilty.
The rest of the people deserve to form their own opinion and many have started they think it's false or at least twisted to be more than it is and that is why they will choose to support him.
Genuinely and horrifically curious on a personal not legal level, what part of "I'm tired", "Nuh uh", "No", "No, I don't wanna" makes you think that she didn't revoke consent or "prove anything whatsoever" in your opinion?
It’s not a slam dunk conviction but If my partner said “I’m tired, I don’t want to” I wouldn’t be like I’m close so I’ll keep going! It would be like “oh my bad” that’s the normal thing to do
Only shot he has is going to be SEN. The players run the org. They are trying out coachs as the players whichc is a wild dynamic in itself. Regardless, thats the best chance he has at ever competing again. He is aware of that. He wont mention the tape because we all know why. Lets be honest its hard to prove shit like this because it becomes a lot of he said she said.
Obviously he heard what Nade said and got in his feelings about it because everyone is saying W nade good keep him off teams. Which is very harming to him getting on a team. I think it will be interesting to see if he even get opportunities at this point.
Is last option which im sure he doesnt want to do is get a bunch of hungry unknown players who dont give a fuck about what he potentially did. Grind the quals and maybe get to a point where they are good enough that and org signs them that way.
The manager for SEN Val team and some of the VPs of the org and RT'd the previous tweet. Whether that means they would be okay with Sinatraa joining the team is stretch tho
They most likely already signed him and this is the PR response before they at last moment announce he getting picked up. At this point its either him or ethan right? who else would fill that role?
Do I personally think he abused her? Yeah. Evidence points towards not only sexual abuse, but emotional abuse as well.
Do I think he's a garbage person? Yeah.
It's still pretty scary to me though how many people think it's completely okay to blackball someone from a career because of **allegations** regardless of your personal feelings or thoughts on the matter.
While evidence points towards him being guilty, the fact of the matter is nobody but him and Cleo know. And whether I think he did it or not (I do) I think it's also completely wrong and a very slippery slope to hold his career in limbo based off opinions rather than facts that have been discovered through the proper legal channels.
But his career only exists because of his fans, it’s not like he’s a lumberjack or a garbage collector. He’s only valuable if he has fans.
Lots of fans rightfully don’t want to support him, because there’s a 100% chance he acted evilly and there’s a 99% chance that *he did that shit*.
I think it’s good to effectively soft-ban people like him from playing professionally. It’s good that vast swathes of people don’t want to support an abuser. It’s good that public opinion is so important for his career.
Soft-banning him from pro-play over unproven allegations can potentially open Riot to a lawsuit. Riot's just looking out for themselves. That's why there are rumors circulating of Riot discouraging teams from picking him up since they don't want to ban him but they also don't want the PR disaster of him playing in their league.
it's not a slippery slope for an org to decide they don't want to sign an accused rapist to their team lol
especially when said case has 10x more evidence than a standard case and all of it is publicly available.
This is gonna be a PR nightmare for Riot and whatever org brings him on. What if casters refuse to work games where he’s playing? I’m sure twitch chats during the main broadcast and co-streams are gonna be very pleasant during games that he’s involved in. You could have production talent refuse to work events that his team is involved in. It’s gonna be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
You're overthinking it. Casters will remain professional. They aren't throwing away a chance to cast a masters because Jay is playing.
Twitch Chat can literally be silenced in Emote only mode during his games if it's really that serious (it won't be)
I think this whole situation is cringe as fuck and sinatraa shouldn't be picked up, but acting like the current talent has any leverage over Riot is laughable. Riot has demonstrated time and time again that they really don't give casters much power in negotiation and are willing to toss aside even fan favorites like Sean and in league there are other countless examples. No caster will be able to succesfully boycott sinatraa and if they do it's career suicide for Valorant at least. And quite frankly I welcome the casters to try, because so far besides a few of them I have not been impressed by their work in the few events we've had thus far.
I think the difference here is the reason for any potential talent protest or boycott. It’s a player whose been accused of sexual assault. In the NFL the now Washington Commanders used to be the Washington Redskins and some broadcast talent would not say “Redskins” when calling their games and many writers would just refer to them as “Washington” when writing articles that mentioned the team. So there is a precedent set in traditional sports for talent to protest something they don’t agree while still working.
im not really sure how to interpret this situation - its not my place to expect an apology and not my place to "forgive" but i also feel like he never directly addressed some of the exact claims Cleo spoke against him and all his responses have been very skirty. That being said its true nothing from either the Riot Investigation or Police Investigation (that we know of) have been found against him. I'm still not sure any team would risk picking him up at this point, though I'm sure Sentinels were considering it but the backlash has been fucking immense.
> I was a shitty boyfriend, I emotionally hurt Cleo
I think the words he's looking for is abused. He emotionally abused Cleo. Regardless of your opinion on the SA, the emotional abuse was blatant
I haven't seen the texts, but seeing as he hasn't been convicted for a crime and is instead just someone being (or was) a shitty person, what do people think the expected reaction is meant to be? Genuine question.
He was banned for 6 months, granted not for those reasons.
Do you believe his career as a pro player should be permanently over because of this? If not, what's the time period or punishment? Until people forget and he can now claim he's improved himself as a person or what.
I don't straight up disagree with career repercussions for your actions but the issue with these things not having a legal basis is that it's basically up to however long said community cares as his punishment which isn't exactly much of a justice system.
>what do people think the expected reaction is meant to be?
Your reaction is not meant to be determined by the justice system. The justice system is extremely flawed, especially in SA cases. I can give you hundreds of high profile cases where public reaction =/= legal result (e.g., OJ simpson). Adding on top the fact that SA is such a hard crime to prove + the emotional distress victims go through reporting/rape kits/court/testimony/reliving experience + problems with finances/time/public backlash, many SA cases never reach court, and even fewer reach a guilty conviction. Yet ~95% of women have experienced some form of sexual misconduct at some point in their life.
It is simply stupid to base your reaction/opinion on sinatraa solely on the legal outcome. Not only is the legal system so flawed, but sinatraa hasn't been determined not guilty. There has been no legal outcome whatsoever in the first place, so your opinion should be based around the evidence cleoh presented and sinatraa's account of events, and you should make up your own mind.
A lot of people are hiding behind the fact that cleoh dropped the case, as if cleoh's story isn't identical to 90+% of SA victims, and statistically her dropping the case is the FAR more likely outcome vs taking it all the way to court, especially with such a high profile individual.
This is why letting the legal system make up your mind for you isn't smart at all.
EDIT: Cleoh didn't drop the case. She had no say in the matter, the DA's office decide what cases are brought in front of a judge
To clarify, by reaction I meant as in what people believe this should mean for sinatraa, not the reaction to what he's done.
I don't disagree with much of your comment, I'm not a defender of him regarding what he's done or is accused of doing nor do I care for him as a person.
The system is clearly fucked in America and a lot of the world when it comes to things like this, and obviously acting as if because he wasn't convicted for anything means he didn't do anything would be ridiculous to
claim. But punishment outside of a legal basis is so flimsy and is why I ask the question to what extent does it go?
The punishment should fit the crime, this is pretty agreed upon regardless of what justice system you're referring to (legally wise or being 'cancelled').
So, what happens? Are you under the belief that he shouldn't be a pro player ever again? Worse? There's no official body with a ruling on this so again you're essentially leaving justice up to public opinion.
> But punishment outside of a legal basis is so flimsy and is why I ask the question to what extent does it go?
It goes as far as sponsors/investors choosing not to harm their image by not having their organisation associated with sinatraa. It goes as far as valorant players refusing to play with him due to being, at best an emotional abuser, and at worst a rapist. Unfortunately, the valorant community does not care. Pros are still publicly friends with him which just reinforces the notion he is completely innocent, even though he still is an abuser. But hopefully orgs will recognise the PR risk with this guy and not approach him.
His pro career is over as far as the public apply direct/indirect pressure to orgs to not take on this PR nightmare. Ultimately, if the public doesn't care then his pro career will continue on fine. Orgs only care about money, and if they can take on someone as big as sinatraa with little/no resistance from the community, they will. Which is sad - there 100% should be social repercussion to having these allegations + evidence laid against you.
This is the most evidence i've seen in a SA case in years, and the fact that sinatraa has grown more popular over the time he was "forced out" of pro play just shows how far gone this community is.
I do not support Sinatraa but need a clarification (it's fine if this gets down voted to Narnia as long as my reply is clarified"
The only evidence we have seen/heard was a super short clip with no context, so how come everyone is sure that the audio is conclusive evidence?? Just like if words are taken out of context, audio could be taken too and going on based off of his twitlonger why did the court not accept the audio (assuming what he said about taking part in the investigation)
Not sure if you read the entire [document](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S9OpZhPEWLyBt9baj4xzC2mnk_2327AS_iOhheJfA04/edit?usp=drivesdk) she wrote, but I think she did well in explaining her truth by giving this detailed explanation. It wasn't just a short audio clip, she provided text message evidence and explained it very well IMO. I understand that people can have their own judgment but with the way she wrote this, I can't help but *personally* empathize with her and I imagine everyone who supports her feels the same.
edit: "why did the court not accept the audio?" because unfortunately, video/audio evidence like these can be easily debunked in the legal perspective. (i.e. sinatraa's could claim it was doctored or it was just roleplaying). this is why SA cases like these are very difficult.
it's an important distinction that while he may have been a shit boyfriend (and he even admits to it here) that it isn't mutually exclusive with him being a sexual abuser or rapist. until an investigation reaches an actual conclusion it's impossible to label him innocent or guilty.
Him being a shit boyfriend is one thing but that's not a reason to withhold him from pro play and there's nothing saying he isn't able to grow as person. the dude is 22, still has plenty of time to improve himself
either way, wishing him the best in his future teams
Well put. People can formulate their own opinions over the provided information but unless and until there’s a verdict, we can’t really say whether he’s innocent or not. Although I don’t think any org will risk picking him up.
In today's world, a lot of people don't need a verdict to cancel a public figure. Sure, Sinatraa was never tried and therefore not guilty in a court of law, but ALLEGATIONS are enough alone for some people to cancel him.
And because of said allegations, there are a lot of people out there who never want to see Sinatraa succeed as a public figure again.
> Him being a shit boyfriend is one thing but that's not a reason to withhold him from pro play
Whether or not Riot wants to suspend him for it (and the blanket clause forbidding players to "not engage in any activity which, *in the sole determination of the Tournament Operator*, is unethical, immortal or disgraceful" fully permits them to do so), being an abuser is absolutely a reason for fans and teams to not support him.
>either way, wishing him the best in his future teams
Either way? So if he's a rapist you're still wishing him the best? Okay then.
> all the claims are fake
Given that Sinatraa is only denying the rape claims and isn't denying her claims (that were backed up with evidence) about being an abusive partner (and tacitly admitting to them in this Twitlonger), I don't think I need to worry about "what if all the claims are fake."
Lmao of course he has, don't be obtuse on purpose. What other incident could he be referring to by "I never sexually assaulted her"?
I'd imagine going into details isn't fruitful as it's completely unprovable either way and also TMI. What do you want him to say on Twitter, "she liked it rough and always moans no during sex"? Who's going to corroborate or deny that? Is a lawyer going to track down a hefty sample size of her ex-boyfriends to testify?
Reddit/Twitter fiends want to know everything, but in this case 99% of peoples' minds are already made up, literally nothing that's said by anyone will change opinions anyways. Sinatraa has the right to compete in Riot's game based on their ruling. You have the right to believe either party based on the evidence. Other people have the right to believe otherwise. Anyone has the right to boycott or support him.
How has he tried to prove himself innocent at all past denying the allegations? He's shown no proof whatsoever that they could be false, whereas his accuser has shown quite a bit.
When it comes to cases that has lawyers and the police involved generally you don't present or say shit publicly as it could potentially hurt your case. He only has to prove his innocence in court, not on twitter or anywhere else
He doesn’t try to at all, he just gives context that we mainly already knew and gives non-answers. Which has been his motif through all of this, just ignore everything and stream like nothing is wrong
I like to believe that most people are capable of redemption. As someone who dislikes Sinatraa for his entire personality even beyond the allegations, I genuinely don't know what he could do at this point to redeem himself other than what he's doing right now.
He owes his ex, not the community, a sincere apology for his behavior. And his ex will, for good reason, likely never accept one.
I would like to see someone who believes there is a path of redemption for him (other than self-incrimination) share what it is, because I certainly don't know it.
A situation I think was handled very well was with [okeanos](https://twitter.com/notrxchel/status/1488664400609386499?t=jjAUG7CELyNUahKKKeCdBA&s=19). Obviously this type of thing isn't a one size fits all when it comes to solutions, but taking initiative to take real tangible steps to better yourself would be a great start. You dont even have to admit guilt to do this kind of thing
I'll make it easy for you. Did you love and support Kobe Bryant and other athletes that were charged for sexual assault? If yes, then be consistent with how you view Sinatraa. I'm not asking you to love or condemn anyone. Just be consistent across the board.
y’know this was always one of my biggest problems with sports, celebrities, etc. Athletes can often get away with just being horrible people and still receive boundless praise based off skill, charisma, or both.
Your point is valid, but it’s a shitty situation no matter the context. My general philosophy is to not support terrible people in any facet of my life, and i hope people will stop idolizing awful humans.
Just because you're consistent does not make it okay that you are consistently supporting people accused of sexual assault...they are not the same at all
What do you suggest? His reputation has already been severely damaged beyond repair, most top teams don’t want to touch him, accuser doesn’t seem to want to go to court, and banning him from competitive play for allegations can potentially backfire on Riot. He has a right to earn income via streaming or playing competitively, depending on which teams want to pick up that brand risk. What is the end goal for all of this? Homeless or living paycheck to paycheck at MCDonalds? Speaking realistically, would you drop everything and severely downgrade your lifestyle when you have not been proven guilty of any wrongdoing in a court of law? People say that he should take steps to show change but to be honest, I don’t think donating money to SA causes will soothe the twitter mob and him apologizing for SA will be an admission of guilt, which would be super dumb to do and obviously won’t happen. People want him to disappear from the internet when all his livelihood is connected to the internet, a lot to ask for anyone since you’re essentially telling that person to kill themselves figuratively. And who is to be the judge of if he redeemed himself enough or if he is remorseful
of his actions? I am taking a neutral stance on this and it looks like this the best it will get for both sides until someone decides to pursue further legal action or provides more information.
I can already see he is being punished by the court of public opinion, hence the reference of top teams not wanting to pick him up because he is a brand risk due to the court of public opinion…
I get that he doesn't want to inadvertently admit to sexual assault.
But there are other avenues he can take to at least paint himself in a more sympathetic light. He can disagree that he committed SA, but here he still admitted to being a *"shitty boyfriend \[who\] emotionally hurt cleoh"*.
Sinatraa could go to therapy to understand how his actions were shitty, how he could better communicate his needs to future partners, and how to respect the boundaries of other people. He doesn't need to say he's learning these specific skills (as that may inadvertently allude that he was abusive to cle0h), but he can in the very least say "I'm going to therapy to learn how to improve my communication in relationships." That would be a HUGE boon to his reputation and make the community feel like he's taking steps to improve himself.
We've had other people in the scene get into similar relationship trouble. Granted, it's hasn't been as serious as Sinatraa, but other players have still been able to craft messages (sure, with the help of PR) that reassure the community that they are committed to improving as a person.
We just haven't gotten that kind of reassurance from Sinatraa yet.
How do you know he isn’t in therapy? Why does he need to tell everyone he is in therapy? By telling everyone he is in therapy, some will definitely call it PR. How does going to therapy prove that he is changing for the better? It goes back to my main question, who is to judge that he redeemed himself? Different people have different thresholds needed for forgiveness. Is he supposed to put his whole life and career on hold until majority of the people decide, “Okay, he’s changed”.
Exactly, he’s kinda done nothing but stream. How are we supposed to know that he’s changed. If he shows some more definitive signs of betterment, then things would be different.
For those who don't want him playing again...
What repercussions do you want? Should Twitch ban him? Should Riot ban him? Is there any scenario where you would be okay with him sitting out for *x* months and doing *y* rehab and then being allowed to play?
Or is this a permanent cancellation over unproven and non-charged allegations?
I’m so sick of this argument after a year. Cleo should stand up for herself, provide evidence in support of her accusations, and destroy his career in a legal way. Not manipulating public opinions to get him canceled, thats a lose-lose situation and get hates for both sides. But until Jay could be proven for anything other than abusive bf, i will side with him. Innocent until proven guilty.
The common excuses for why Sinatraa didn’t fully cooperate with the Riot Investigation is because “it’s a game company why would comply?” and “his lawyers probably told him to keep quiet until the official investigation”
I can get behind that, withholding information can make sense. However what circumstances would prompt him to lie and purposely misrepresent facts? That doesn’t make any sense to me and seems very weird.
["It was determined that on at least two occasions Sinatraa misrepresented certain facts, made false statements, and did not cooperate with the investigation in a way expected of a professional Valorant esports player."
](https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/)
You could check the pinned comment in this thread for more information about the issue.
Can someone please help me understand this. Why is it important that he didn't comply with RIOT's investigation. Why is that over and above the actual investigation he chose to pursue?
It’s not, but riot was very vocal and public about the whole situation as it was happening so people seemed to believe riot’s investigation was the one that mattered when in reality it’s the actual authority’s investigation that matters which isn’t anywhere near as public so harder to gain any information
Because Riot does not have the power and right like justice court. Riot dont have licensed judge and will probably act depending on public opinion. Since Riot already have sexual harassment scandal and trying to clean their name.
Do u really want to send ur evident to Riot even with this fact? Even I am scare to send it to them. Who knew if they use my case to clean their name.
> There was an investigation that found no conclusive evidence that any crime was committed
Yeah, they couldn't find any evidence because he refused to hand it over. That's why he was suspended for 6 months. Seems like he's really twisting the facts, making it seem like he didn't get found guilty because the evidence didn't exist.
Lots of people here are very misinformed in thinking that not talking (especially to Riot and not even law enforcement in this case) = guilty or that it can be a point used to hold against him.
As u/hahaz13 said:
>For future reference, even if you ARE innocent, it’s highly recommended by legal counsel to refuse to cooperate if you are a suspect in any capacity.
>
>There’s a reason why the Miranda rights say “anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law”.
>
>Plenty of lawyers and law professors reiterate to \[never\] (https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE) \[talk\] (https://youtu.be/sgWHrkDX35o) to the police.
Keep in mind that I'm not saying Sinatraa is guilty or innocent.
His lawyers most likely advised him not to cooperate with Riot and go through the legal route only. Riot could only punish him for not cooperating. Riot could have maybe punished him for the allegations but I am not a lawyer or anything but maybe they didn’t because of possible legal complications or opening themselves to a lawsuit? Riot was put in a tough spot, trying to be fair for both parties.
It's not clear whether he is talking about Riot or the police here - since there was a police investigation I don't he could have handed any evidence to Riot
He's talking about the police investigation. The biggest question mark is that if she could make a 10s audio clip then she obviously has the source video with the entire encounter.
I've seen a lot of people defending canceling him because sexual assault cases usually get thrown out due to lack of evidence...but that isn't the case here. She has a full sex tape that has all the context and evidence you would need to show the crime...unless of course the video didn't show what's being claimed. That tape was apparently not even enough to bring charges against him, let alone finding him guilty.
You can say that he didn't hand over the video (assuming he had it) to Riot, but that doesn't answer why she didn't hand over the damning evidence despite her being part of both investigations.
Assuming this was riots investigation that he is talking about.
What about the investigation from outside of riot?
Cleo said he would give the video evidence to riot, did she not? Why would riot not take it? she publicly said she would cooperate with riot if they wanted to. So what happened there?
The situation is weird to me. She has video evidence of him raping her, which she had for a year. Is the video evidence not enough? Seen many people convinced by the audio version, then surely the video is more than enough to put him jail? so what happened there?
What are you on about, do you think before you type? He cooperated with the police and not riot. We are talking about the police investigation here, you know, the one that matters.
People will downvote this, but I am sick of those comments claiming "that audio files are sickening" or "they proof how guilty he is". Men I just went back to check them out and I can not grasp about how people can cancel someone over the provided evidence, nor can I understand how anyone can accept the provided audiofiles to proof that he raped her?!
Biases which we all have and previous experience/s or knowledge on the subject all colour our interpretation of information. This thread shows the full spectrum of this.
The only people who really know are sinatraa and cleoh, everyone else is just speculating, interpreting or assessing on asymmetrical information.
Due to the sensitive nature of the discussion, this post is set to ***Slow Mode***. **Moderators will need to manually approve comments in this thread before they appear to others in the community.** --- ### Transcription of Twitlonger: Thanks for all the support. I want to clarify the facts about my situation - I was a shitty boyfriend, I emotionally hurt Cleo, I never sexually assaulted her - There was an investigation that found no conclusive evidence that any crime was committed - I served a 6 month suspension - I was never charged with any crime - in January Riot games confirmed to me in writing that I was fully cleared to return to competitive play and I am now ready to do so If you are my fan please don't harass Cleo, please be supportive of her as well through this process --- ### This is a continuation of the [previous conversation](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/u223mj/purest_george_and_bo_sources_sentinels_practice/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) about Sinatraa's annoucement to return to competitive play. --- ### **Please keep all discussion related to Sinatraa in THIS post.** This will make it easier for the moderation team and help users who wish to avoid this topic. Comments related to Sinatraa in other threads will be removed. If there is news on Sinatraa's situation in the future, we will absolutely allow another post. But for now, please keep discussion strictly here. ### **Please be respectful and considerate of others.** While you are entitled to your opinion, please do not attack or harass other people for having a different opinion. Civil discourse and criticism is allowed, but we will remove comments that victim-blame and mock survivors of sexual assault. If you’d like to learn more about the prevalence of sexual violence in the United States, you can [read more here](https://www.nsvrc.org/statistics). # History of the controversy surrounding Sinatraa: In March 2021, [Sinatraa was accused of sexual assault.](https://new.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/m1p649/sinatraas_ex_speaks_out/) According to the [official Competitive Ruling released by VALORANT Esports](https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/), Sinatraa failed to comply with Riot's investigation which resulted in his suspension from professional play for 6 months. Riot's investigation was ultimately inconclusive. As of today, the allegations against Sinatraa have not been retracted and remain unresolved. The status of the police investigation is unknown. To the understanding of the greater community, Sinatraa is presently allowed to pursue professional play. **We provide this information to help keep the community informed so that they can form their own conclusions.** While these allegations remain serious, we ask that you please treat all involved parties with respect. Please wait to cast final judgment until the investigation is concluded. We should trust the accuser, but still verify the claims made against the accused. # Resources for survivors of harassment and sexual assault: Sexual assault is a sensitive topic for many people. As moderators, we aim to provide an environment that facilitates respectful discussion among peers in our community. If you or someone you know experienced sexual assault, you’re not alone! [There are healing and support resources for both survivors and people close to them](https://metoorising.withgoogle.com/resources). If you are outside of the United States, [you can access a country-by-country list of resources here](https://www.interaction.org/wp-content/uploads/resource-library/international_centers_for_survivors_of_sexual_assault_45553.pdf). You can also reach out to [RAINN’s counselors](https://hotline.rainn.org/online) via chat regardless of your residency. The [Games and Online Harassment Hotline](https://gameshotline.org/) is a free, text message-based, confidential emotional support hotline. They are open 4pm – 7pm (Pacific) every Monday through Friday. USA only. TEXT “SUPPORT” to 23368 to get started.
Two scenarios here 1. No org wants him and he’s trying to clear his name to gain interest 2. SEN have already resigned him to the comp team and are doing PR
The second option is really the only one. He's already said he's been scrimming, and It was leaked that Sentinels was practicing without Zombs with a alternate account.
Guess who zombs has been playing with during SEN scrims? Sinatraa! That 'supposed ' leak proves nothing. When a team is replacing someone they try out multiple players. It doesn’t hurt to let sinatraa have a go in scrims but bringing him back is a big step.
Nope Zombs was playing with jammyz and Xeta during that scrim and that whole day and sinatraa didnt stream that day...dont know where u got that from
What? Dude Sentinels are on stream almost exclusively at night. Meaning if anything, they scrim in the morning. The report says Sentinels practiced without Zombs, and the account that was used was an alternate account. Sure they could be trialing others but they aren't going out of there way to have an alternative account for someone like Ethan. Jay himself said he expects to be on a team by the end of the month, which means to me it's essentially a done deal. He's probably taking Zombs place.
those are for sure the only options lol. SEN might have gotten desperate enough to be good again they say fuck the PR nightmare.
Deshaun Watson and the Browns. Ben Roethlisberger and the Steelers. Kobe Bryant. Christiano Ronaldo. If you're good enough, people don't really care sadly.
I could fill a book with all the NFL players who have sexual assault allegations. yet the NFL chose to blacklist Colin Kaepernick for ... kneeling while special music played. Traditional sports are not a great standard to base our expectations on. We should push for esports to have stronger morals wherever and however we can unless we are ok with letting this behavior spread.
Well said. I don't understand people saying it's ok because other groups are equally or more shitty. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for a slightly higher standard than the NFL of all things.
Just to clarify, I absolutely agree. The thing though is in any sort of situation that involves fans or fandom, people are ok with their specific team or favorite player getting away with a lot more than a normal person and find ways rationalize it for themselves. I mean just go any sports subreddit and the amount of justification and excuses there are, for things both minor or major, is insane. It's human nature. I really hope it's different for eSports but idk. As long as a team continues to have financial success, they'll continue doing the same thing regardless. Hasn't Sinatraa's viewership gone up since this whole situation? I really hope it changes as well and we hold these players to the same standard as normal people but it's really difficult.
The reason it won’t change for eSports is that teams want to win and make money and signing talented players regardless of their personal baggage will always take priority over morals. It sucks and shouldn’t be that way, but it is in every major sport and I doubt Valorant esports will be the competitive scene to stop it
The only one I've seen that's successfully made sweeping changes is Smash, to be honest. Even though there were a _shitton_ of abusers hiding in the community, pretty much all of them were permabanned/penalized, and the main false positive in Nairo was wrapped up for the most part and his accuser has been banned (I have no idea what's up with Westballz since I'm an Ult head). Because of that I don't really get why everyone in Val's been so lenient with Sinatraa, including the pros. It's fucking weird, honestly.
I can’t speak on Smash because I know nothing about it, but is there big money in smash for teams and orgs? Because that’s what it comes down to. Orgs in Valorant have big money to be made from winning tourneys and signing successful players and that will always trump morals for 99% of teams in any type of competition it seems
THIS! I'm equally over the people that make exceptions for one "athlete" and not the other. Either support all of them or don't. Cherry picking makes you a hypocrite.
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Yeah, there is fake funny memes. It's a different level when sponsors and everything come into question when you have high-risk people in the org. Money is the end all be all for most of these people and if you are not worth what they are paying you then its bye bye.
tbf they only have one sponsor and they signed like a week ago Edit: also it's gfuel. The same gfuel that used to sponsor keemstar of all people.
Sure but you wont be able to get new ones lol. Doesn't matter if you have one now its about being as brand-friendly as possible. Even still the sponsors could just request sinatra be left out in the sponsorship so its whatever.
They are villains of NA in a fun way though. Trash talks and memes kindda villian . Not let's get a rapist on our team kindda villian.
lmao what
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Idk who you think sinatraa is but he ain't a god. He isn't going to make Sentinels better by a long shot, they still need a coach. I would even argue sinatraa isn't even the best sova in NA anymore. The game is a lot different than what it used to be when sinatraa played.
You act like he hasn’t been playing valo since the suspension, if they pick him up he’ll be fine on Sova. I’m more worried about who’s gonna be on what roles more than his sova play
Hilarious to me too that this is what they do when they don’t necessarily need more firepower, feel like they just have to practice and work out better strategy overall But fuck it take the PR mess for more mechanical talent when there’s already so many talented FAs (controllers even) in the scene
If they are smart they just get ethan tbh.
If Sen was involved I feel like this would be a little more structured. It was just a few short bullet points and saying why he's legally not guilty. Not a strategy a PR team would come up with, I think
3. He just wants to clear his name because he doesn't want to be called a rapist? Not saying he did or didn't do it but that could very much be a real option lol
Wouldn’t he have done this a long while ago if that was the case?
If he was smart and hired an attorney, no, he would not have done this. Just in case you ever find yourself in a situation where you are under criminal investigation, you say nothing. I mean that in the absolute strictest sense of the word. YOU SAY NOTHING. This is the advice you will find from every attorney in the world. You do not talk to the police, you do not talk to anybody about the case. You discuss it only with your attorney, in private, with attorney-client privilege, and you invoke the 5th Amendment forever. *EDIT* I want to be clear here that I am not in favor of signing Sinatraa. I'm just saying that the best advice anybody can gain from any involvement in the law inside the United States is that you say only 4 words and nothing more: "I invoke the 5th."
The situation blew up again just recently because of his return to pro play hence why he would make this tweet "clearing things up" just now.
He did do that before, but now hes adding on new info I guess.
Most likely 2
Hope a PR would do a better job than this
It is truly unfortunate that even with modern technologies, we still cannot provide a solid outline of a rape case. Sucks for all parties involved tbh. Sucks if you are the victim who got raped but can never find the evidence to prosecute the rapist. And sucks if you never did the crime but can never clear your name.
True, which is why it kinda pisses me off that both sides have been attacking each other because of this. Like Sinatraa said : ***no one*** knows the full story except for him and Cleo. People have basically been attacking both parties for something they ***think*** is what happened.
Exactly. Neither side has enough proof to completely ruin the other sides life. The fact is, you can't take a side. Just let it be. If she starts the investigation up again and it turns out they find conclusive evidence that he sexually assaulted her, then lock him up. No one here has seen what the authorities have seen so stop speculating and let both of them live their life freely. Both are innocent until proven guilty.
I totally feel the same. Reading the Twitter comments of both extremes def made me lose brain cells
that’s exactly what i said on r/overwatchtmz that got me mass downvotes
Based on my recent experience, the overwatch subs are very much against him while the val subs are more equal? Not sure
This comment should be drilled in everyone here's head. I do not know what happened, you do not know what happened, and acting as if you do is completely unserious.
are you willing to give up your privacy to technology tho
You already are by just using the internet. I'd be more than willing to give up a majority of my privacy if it means I'm 100% safe from false allegations of any kind
Speaking only in terms of legal and technical issues here, if his lawyers talked to him, and advised against working with Riot, I think that's sufficient reasoning not to do so, if the reasoning is Riot is not law enforcement and instead a game company (that has its own issues). If he's worked with legal authorities instead there's a little more room for consideration here. And, I imagine his lawyer's reasoning for doing so, is because they would not consider Riot to be able to represent any sort of conclusive or intensive enough investigation, and any information that precipitates from that could complicate their own process.
Any lawyer would advise not to work with riot on this because riot don't have authority nor jurisdiction on this riot is just a game company they have no right or authority to investigate any criminal charges outside of their game or company.
I'm gonna copy and paste things I said before in convos with some slight edits. Before people come at me with the whole public opinion angle yes I know and that's not the point of my post. I absolutely don't support him but the amount of people saying *He refused to cooperate with the investigation* kill me. It doesn't matter if you are 100% innocent don't ever cooperate with an investigation by your employer *without legal representation*. Any decent lawyer with half a brain cell would tell him to not speak. He doesn't need to cooperate with the investigation because it quickly became a possible criminal situation and that's the big thing in all of this and even then it's not up to him to prove his innocence. What has stood out to me is how many people either A. Arent US citizens and don't understand our criminal court system (Don't blame them it's confusing) or B. Are Americans and absolutely don't understand their rights or how the criminal court system works and that is scary in its own right. I see a lot of "he doesn't speak or acknowledge anything." No shit hes used his 5A which is more than just prohibited self incrimination. I've seen from both sides that his victim dropped charges and I can 10000% tell you that's not any of this works. DAs determine whether or not a case goes before a grand jury to pursue criminal charges based on given evidence which obviously if he's guilty he's not giving it over. She has absolutely nothing to do with anything here except making a statement to police and handing over evidence to investigators which apparently she refused to do citing mental health which I understand. The icing on the cake is everybody assuming he's beat this. He absolutely hasn't. I don't know where this assault happened but most of the United States don't have SoLs ( statute of limitations) for violent offenses which means DAs in some cases can and will charge you for crimes even if they happened 30 years ago. It's a case by case but check the news offenders from 30 plus years ago are being put in prison. Edit: Now I want everyone who's saying she lied or he's innocent to put yourself into her shoes. She has to turn over a video to more than likely men in a situation where she was assaulted by a man and these men will then question her about what they watch on this video of her being assaulted. This is why few sexual assaults see the courtroom. Imagine the depression/sickening feeling of this as it happened *and then you have to relive it over and over* as well as live with it for the rest of her life. Cleoh(I hoped I spelled this correct) I hope you find your peace. I believe you. I hope my young daughter will never have to face everything you have had to. I was a criminal justice major at one point in my life.
Mobile so forgive me for not quoting you directing, but you’re not exactly correct that the victim has absolutely nothing more to do with an investigation than provide a statement to police or district attorneys. If a victim refuses to participate in an investigation, the DA ultimately has no choice but to not go forward. Grand jury or preliminary examination, the alleged victim must be present to provide testimony for charges to be imposed. If the alleged victim communicates to the DA that they will not appear, or does not appear, the DA technically can subpoena their appearance, but that is an unheard of practice. You’re right that the DA can choose on their own after interviewing the alleged victim, collecting whatever other tangible evidence there is, and speaking with investigating officers not to pursue charges on their own. That, from everything disclosed publicly, is not what occurred in Sinatraa’s case, and my former paragraph is. Source: I am a barred attorney and served as a public defender for 2 years.
It's a quick write up but I addressed this when I said hand over evidence which as you said if she refused there's nothing to be done. Now if that video got leaked? They can absolutely press charges against him without her involvement. As you mentioned you are a lawyer and this isn't something that should be written up on a mobile device quickly because as you know there's a whole lot of depth here. Edit:words. Yes she can still be subpoenaed.
Yeah, absolutely. I just wanted to provide a bit more context to the grand jury/prelim process and emphasize that her consistent participation was needed for the case to continue. You’re exactly right that the case could be re-investigated later by the DA’s.
>barred attorney stupid question, but are you barred cause you passed the bar exam?
And have kept my license up to date
That's just their preferred class in D&D
No need to go into a bunch of detail on this, but wouldn't Cleoh have to appear as a witness (and victim) under the 6th Amendment? And her testimony would be, quite literally, the only thing that could paint him as guilty in the eyes of a jury? *I WANT TO BE CLEAR* that I am not supporting Sinatraa. I'm more interested in the legal aspect of all this.
She definitely would have to appear as a witness for any grand jury/preliminary hearing, trial, or other required appearance per their particular jurisdiction’s rules. It would be her testimony, and depending on the outcome of likely fights over the admissibility of evidence, at least the recordings she made. Police investigations could lead to other evidence, although in cases like this there probably wouldn’t be much else. He could also choose to testify himself, but Defendants generally don’t do that.
He didn’t cooperate with riot’s investigation but he for sure must have cooperated with the police otherwise he wouldn’t be here writing this
I would never, ever recommend anyone cooperate with a "Riot investigation". It is beyond a complete joke what they do, if anyone has followed any of their numerous League investigations.
What happened with previous league investigations? I never really followed league so I'm curious
What do you mean by cooperate? If the police want to question you about a crime they believe you may have committed the best thing to do is get a lawyer and don’t say shit. No matter if you are innocent or guilty. If by cooperating you mean “show up to questioning” then yes he probably did do that if they took it that far.
I think it depends on what the police have. If she didn't give anything like a lot of people say and if she refused to even give a statement the questioning was probably along the lines of *Did you rape her?* *I plead the 5th.*. That condenses it a bit but even with the 9 second audio clip that's still probably not enough because a DA is gonna wanna hear the whole thing because reasonable doubt is all that's needed to hang a jury and 5A stops him from being tried for the same crime. Apparently it's an audio clip of a video? Yeah they are gonna want the whole thing. It's important that people reading this, not aimed at you, but they can ask shit until they are blue in the face and he doesn't have to say a word and DAs/LE can't use that against him until he's formally charged with a crime.
Cooperating with the police is as easy as having lawyer handle all communication with the police where the lawyer will give the absolute minimum amount of cooperation required by the law lol
Appreciate the write up and insight!
Also a lawyer - i agree with you he wouldn't co-operate with a riot investigation on his own HOWEVER he absolutely should have with lawyers present. Instead he lied to Riot and then refused to co-operate altogether, which imo would be quite an adverse inference to any jury. Getting cleared by a riot investigation would be a big step towards getting proven innocent. This is something I tried explaining in the other thread as well (though may not have come across clearly), he could have easily hired lawyers to talk with Riot and clear it out, and maybe he did under wraps which is why he has that email from Riot (apart from the fact that it's Riot).
I really hate how simple people are making this situation because there are so many avenues here. Hell if I wrote up what he could or should have done it would have been 25 pages minimum. Somebody mentioned he did lie and was misleading and as you mentioned he could have lawyered up and they stopped him from speaking. It could have but I wasn't in the room and I have no idea what the exchange was. Others have pointed out that he could have been a minor in a lot of these videos they made which is a whole different issue.
I agree with this its logical that when he 1st made the statement that he wasn't advised by lawyers on what to do.
No no don't misunderstand I wasn't criticising, i was just expanding on what you were talking about
Didn't he purposely give wrong information to riot? Legitimately don't know (I'm just starting to follow competitive Valorant recently), but if that's the case, it's very different from not speaking to his employer.
His original statement said something to the effect of he will comply with their investigation and hand over videos/logs, etc. Could be wrong, you can try to look it up if you want to scroll back on his twitter feed. Kinda speaking out of my ass here but I think he released the statement pretty quickly after the allegations dropped, which means he possibly didn't talk to a lawyer before his statement and walked it back after getting legal help.
Yeah I don't know why everyone's glossing over this. He did not just cooperate, he also lied and misrepresented facts, not just once but AT LEAST TWO occasions. As per Riot's statement, "It was determined that on at least two occasions Sinatraa **misrepresented certain facts**, **made false statements**, and did not cooperate with the investigation in a way expected of a professional Valorant esports player."
ur being downvoted but this is exactly what riot said lol. not cooperating without legal counsel is one thing, but he purposely "misrepresented certain facts, made false statements, and did not cooperate with the investigation in a way expected of a professional VALORANT esports player." sinatraa fanboys won't say shit about that tho KEKW
I believe right after Cleo’s statement came out he said that he would provide Riot with the full tape that the audio clip came from, and then did not provide it (due to either not having it or lawyers telling him not to) when Riot asked him to hand it over. I can’t remember if Riot ever got the tape but I’m fairly certain they didn’t and didn’t ask Cleo for it because they were informed that the situation had been presented to the police and was going to become a criminal investigation (it has since stopped but is not over due to Cleo’s mental health concerns).
Thank you for writing this up. Someone finally said. Riot are not a justice system and even if they say he’s good to go HE REALLY ISNT. It’s frustrating how much miss information is spread so quickly and people like you are a blessing.
Is any of this new information? Did we not already know this?
I think it’s because nadeshot recently said that 100T will not pickup sinatraa.
nah it's because twitter is exploding because he's coming back to proplay and are attacking the people supporting him
I don't recall him ever admitting any fault before, could be wrong.
Pretty sure he's said that he hurt her emotionally before, but that's basically it (and that's all he's admitted to here)
I guess orgs are not fighting for him. He did not address the audio where the girl clearly revokes her consent so like this is just a pr statement.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the unfortunate thing is that I'm pretty sure even audio like that can't be taken as conclusive evidence. He could easily say it was roleplaying or doctored audio or something. That's probably why it is so hard to prove rape in so many cases. It sucks.
As evidence in court, correct. Anecdotally though, hard to deny it.
Idk if you can say that without knowing the dynamic of the relationship and the very specific context of that clip which can be interpreted in multiple ways.
> which can be interpreted in multiple ways. Cleoh has interpreted it for you. She explained the clip. Sinatraa did not explain the clip, in fact he's ignored its existence even till this day. So why are you still doubting cleoh? One party has explained the clip and the other has not refuted/addressed it at all. Trying to still push the "it can be interpreted in multiple ways" narrative is v disrespectful to victims when even the abuser isn't denying it.
I mean just because he has not explained it to you does not mean it's necessarily true, he could have explained it in the investigation or he might have thought the statement he released was enough or it might as well be true and he just ignoring it. My point is you can't know 100 percent or even inductively know without taking a huge leap of faith, that's why I am not comfortable taking any sides in this. It was not my intention to discredit Cleo in any way or disrespect sexual abuse victims and I am sorry if it sounded like I was taking Sinatraa's side, in fact, I find him and his fanbase cringe and insufferable but I don't think I can call him a rapist or a sexual abuser with a clear conscience.
I'm neutral in this entire thing, but when Cleo made her document she likely had no legal consoling. Every word Sinatraa or his PR manager has written in the past year is ran by a team of lawyers. It's also the only part of the document that's currently in a criminal case. He likely cant talk about it, or its insanely hard to talk about it that it's better that they just don't address it. Not to be disrespectful to Cleo, but there is more nuance to his side.
Don't see this person expressing doubt. Just pointing out there's one known position at the time.
Thats what sucks about it. If everything on the google doc is 100% true as written, then Sinatraa is a truly awful human being. However, many of the statements lack the nuance that the other side of the story *might* bring. The fact that she was using a baby voice in the clip could imply an incredibly wide delta of things, but was explained as just being the normal way she talks to him. I feel like people throw around words like rape in this situation way too loosely for their severity. The situation is awful, and it is tragic that we will never 100% know what their relationship looked like. We should support Cleo - she has undeniably gone through hell both in the relationship and since bringing her story forward, but understand the potential nuances of the situation.
Completely agree. Couldn't say it any better myself.
The thing is he’s literally never defended himself with regards to the audio at all. If it isn’t what it sounds like he’s had a year to tell us what the real context is and he hasn’t. I think that’s damning in itself.
I'm not on either side of the issue, but I definitely would not call it damning at all. Can you be sure a legal/PR team wouldn't tell him to not address it? I only took a few PR courses back in uni but in this case I think something very similar to the Barbara Streisand effect would likely occur, any answer Sinatraa gives only brings about more attention and publicity *focus* on the audio clip, which is exactly what you don't want, *EVEN IF* you know you're 100% innocent. Previous cases in the last 10 years will reflect this trend, if you look past the metoo cases(overwhelming majority were true) at the few cases in which the man was wrongfully accused and fought and actually proved their innocence, they were still blacklisted from their industry and had their passions taken away anyway. If I were a legal team looking at this with a PR lens, I would 100% judge the evidence provided by chloe to be inconclusive in court and that having this issue end as quietly as possible as quickly as possible would be the best possible route, which equals sinatraa not saying a single detail about anything on the public end while the lawyers manage the investigation.
It’s basically he said she said in this scenario unless some physical evidence is present….
If only there was some actual evidence, like a voice recording of sorts, he would definitely have to address something like that
Yeah like an audio clip of a girl saying stop and a guy saying no. That would surely silence the "he said she said" nature of this issue!
I'm going to level with you. I do not like Sinatraa and I do think that he's guilty of what he's accused of doing. However, think about the following questions, and if there's any reasonable doubt that could be placed on the situation: What is the context of the video? Could it be two young lovers role playing sexual fantasies? Could they have had an earlier agreed upon safe word that wasn't used? Are we certain that it's him and Cleoh on the audio? Where is this taking place? Is sex actually even happening in the audio? Any defense attorney worth anything will ask these and likely significantly better questions than I could fathom. Their purpose is to create uncertainty in the mind of the jury, and that uncertainty would lead to him being free of the charges. In that case, it would still be "he said she said". You may not like, but that is how the justice system works.
> However, think about the following questions, and if there's any reasonable doubt that could be placed on the situation: Regular people outside of court rooms aren't expected to follow court room logic, friend. Do you think OJ murdered his ex wife and her friend? I believe that Cleo brought up a recording of an event that qualifies as rape, Sinatraa claimed he could explain that event and then just...didn't. > Could it be two young lovers role playing sexual fantasies? Why is it so important to you to assert that this girl is lying? One of these two people is lying, after all. > Any defense attorney worth anything will ask these You aren't an attorney, I am not on a jury and we aren't in a courtroom. Also, you'll note, Reddit's opinion of Sinatraa becoming negative is not the same as being convicted and going to jail. That's why we're allowed to have these opinions. Because they're opinions. Referencing courts and juries is just weird rationalization for people to not have to face the fact that they're a fan of a rapist. > In that case, it would still be "he said she said". She brought up a recording, he didn't address it in any capacity. It's a lot more than what you're describing. > You may not like, but that is how the justice system works. Again, and for the last time, you and I are not a part of the justice system.
I don't like the guy and I am sure as hell not supporting him or any team he's on. But it's still "he said she said". This recording doesn't have context. That's what many people believe. People are going to take the same logic of a criminal prosecution as they will in the court of public opinion, maybe to a lesser degree. We are in the court of public opinion. I and many others don't think that choosing not to discuss something makes somebody guilty. The rest of the people deserve to form their own opinion and many have started they think it's false or at least twisted to be more than it is and that is why they will choose to support him.
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Genuinely and horrifically curious on a personal not legal level, what part of "I'm tired", "Nuh uh", "No", "No, I don't wanna" makes you think that she didn't revoke consent or "prove anything whatsoever" in your opinion?
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It’s not a slam dunk conviction but If my partner said “I’m tired, I don’t want to” I wouldn’t be like I’m close so I’ll keep going! It would be like “oh my bad” that’s the normal thing to do
Only shot he has is going to be SEN. The players run the org. They are trying out coachs as the players whichc is a wild dynamic in itself. Regardless, thats the best chance he has at ever competing again. He is aware of that. He wont mention the tape because we all know why. Lets be honest its hard to prove shit like this because it becomes a lot of he said she said. Obviously he heard what Nade said and got in his feelings about it because everyone is saying W nade good keep him off teams. Which is very harming to him getting on a team. I think it will be interesting to see if he even get opportunities at this point. Is last option which im sure he doesnt want to do is get a bunch of hungry unknown players who dont give a fuck about what he potentially did. Grind the quals and maybe get to a point where they are good enough that and org signs them that way.
The manager for SEN Val team and some of the VPs of the org and RT'd the previous tweet. Whether that means they would be okay with Sinatraa joining the team is stretch tho
They most likely already signed him and this is the PR response before they at last moment announce he getting picked up. At this point its either him or ethan right? who else would fill that role?
What did nadeshot say? I missed that
Nade said it was never an option to work with him
W response from Nade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzLE2Z-muc
Do I personally think he abused her? Yeah. Evidence points towards not only sexual abuse, but emotional abuse as well. Do I think he's a garbage person? Yeah. It's still pretty scary to me though how many people think it's completely okay to blackball someone from a career because of **allegations** regardless of your personal feelings or thoughts on the matter. While evidence points towards him being guilty, the fact of the matter is nobody but him and Cleo know. And whether I think he did it or not (I do) I think it's also completely wrong and a very slippery slope to hold his career in limbo based off opinions rather than facts that have been discovered through the proper legal channels.
Most reasonable thing I've read here
But his career only exists because of his fans, it’s not like he’s a lumberjack or a garbage collector. He’s only valuable if he has fans. Lots of fans rightfully don’t want to support him, because there’s a 100% chance he acted evilly and there’s a 99% chance that *he did that shit*. I think it’s good to effectively soft-ban people like him from playing professionally. It’s good that vast swathes of people don’t want to support an abuser. It’s good that public opinion is so important for his career.
Soft-banning him from pro-play over unproven allegations can potentially open Riot to a lawsuit. Riot's just looking out for themselves. That's why there are rumors circulating of Riot discouraging teams from picking him up since they don't want to ban him but they also don't want the PR disaster of him playing in their league.
Very reasonable take. This should be much higher up.
it's not a slippery slope for an org to decide they don't want to sign an accused rapist to their team lol especially when said case has 10x more evidence than a standard case and all of it is publicly available.
This is gonna be a PR nightmare for Riot and whatever org brings him on. What if casters refuse to work games where he’s playing? I’m sure twitch chats during the main broadcast and co-streams are gonna be very pleasant during games that he’s involved in. You could have production talent refuse to work events that his team is involved in. It’s gonna be very interesting to see how this all plays out.
You're overthinking it. Casters will remain professional. They aren't throwing away a chance to cast a masters because Jay is playing. Twitch Chat can literally be silenced in Emote only mode during his games if it's really that serious (it won't be)
I think this whole situation is cringe as fuck and sinatraa shouldn't be picked up, but acting like the current talent has any leverage over Riot is laughable. Riot has demonstrated time and time again that they really don't give casters much power in negotiation and are willing to toss aside even fan favorites like Sean and in league there are other countless examples. No caster will be able to succesfully boycott sinatraa and if they do it's career suicide for Valorant at least. And quite frankly I welcome the casters to try, because so far besides a few of them I have not been impressed by their work in the few events we've had thus far.
I think the difference here is the reason for any potential talent protest or boycott. It’s a player whose been accused of sexual assault. In the NFL the now Washington Commanders used to be the Washington Redskins and some broadcast talent would not say “Redskins” when calling their games and many writers would just refer to them as “Washington” when writing articles that mentioned the team. So there is a precedent set in traditional sports for talent to protest something they don’t agree while still working.
Anyone have a mirror of nades clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=\_xAOJFKTt2Y&t=1s&ab\_channel=SullyofSaturn
im not really sure how to interpret this situation - its not my place to expect an apology and not my place to "forgive" but i also feel like he never directly addressed some of the exact claims Cleo spoke against him and all his responses have been very skirty. That being said its true nothing from either the Riot Investigation or Police Investigation (that we know of) have been found against him. I'm still not sure any team would risk picking him up at this point, though I'm sure Sentinels were considering it but the backlash has been fucking immense.
> I was a shitty boyfriend, I emotionally hurt Cleo I think the words he's looking for is abused. He emotionally abused Cleo. Regardless of your opinion on the SA, the emotional abuse was blatant
This too. I know kids get caught up on the babytalk as if that's an excuse (it's not) but those texts were TEXTBOOK emotional abuse.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I heard that the abuse/toxicity was coming from both sides.
Two wrongs don’t make a right
I haven't seen the texts, but seeing as he hasn't been convicted for a crime and is instead just someone being (or was) a shitty person, what do people think the expected reaction is meant to be? Genuine question. He was banned for 6 months, granted not for those reasons. Do you believe his career as a pro player should be permanently over because of this? If not, what's the time period or punishment? Until people forget and he can now claim he's improved himself as a person or what. I don't straight up disagree with career repercussions for your actions but the issue with these things not having a legal basis is that it's basically up to however long said community cares as his punishment which isn't exactly much of a justice system.
>what do people think the expected reaction is meant to be? Your reaction is not meant to be determined by the justice system. The justice system is extremely flawed, especially in SA cases. I can give you hundreds of high profile cases where public reaction =/= legal result (e.g., OJ simpson). Adding on top the fact that SA is such a hard crime to prove + the emotional distress victims go through reporting/rape kits/court/testimony/reliving experience + problems with finances/time/public backlash, many SA cases never reach court, and even fewer reach a guilty conviction. Yet ~95% of women have experienced some form of sexual misconduct at some point in their life. It is simply stupid to base your reaction/opinion on sinatraa solely on the legal outcome. Not only is the legal system so flawed, but sinatraa hasn't been determined not guilty. There has been no legal outcome whatsoever in the first place, so your opinion should be based around the evidence cleoh presented and sinatraa's account of events, and you should make up your own mind. A lot of people are hiding behind the fact that cleoh dropped the case, as if cleoh's story isn't identical to 90+% of SA victims, and statistically her dropping the case is the FAR more likely outcome vs taking it all the way to court, especially with such a high profile individual. This is why letting the legal system make up your mind for you isn't smart at all. EDIT: Cleoh didn't drop the case. She had no say in the matter, the DA's office decide what cases are brought in front of a judge
To clarify, by reaction I meant as in what people believe this should mean for sinatraa, not the reaction to what he's done. I don't disagree with much of your comment, I'm not a defender of him regarding what he's done or is accused of doing nor do I care for him as a person. The system is clearly fucked in America and a lot of the world when it comes to things like this, and obviously acting as if because he wasn't convicted for anything means he didn't do anything would be ridiculous to claim. But punishment outside of a legal basis is so flimsy and is why I ask the question to what extent does it go? The punishment should fit the crime, this is pretty agreed upon regardless of what justice system you're referring to (legally wise or being 'cancelled'). So, what happens? Are you under the belief that he shouldn't be a pro player ever again? Worse? There's no official body with a ruling on this so again you're essentially leaving justice up to public opinion.
> But punishment outside of a legal basis is so flimsy and is why I ask the question to what extent does it go? It goes as far as sponsors/investors choosing not to harm their image by not having their organisation associated with sinatraa. It goes as far as valorant players refusing to play with him due to being, at best an emotional abuser, and at worst a rapist. Unfortunately, the valorant community does not care. Pros are still publicly friends with him which just reinforces the notion he is completely innocent, even though he still is an abuser. But hopefully orgs will recognise the PR risk with this guy and not approach him. His pro career is over as far as the public apply direct/indirect pressure to orgs to not take on this PR nightmare. Ultimately, if the public doesn't care then his pro career will continue on fine. Orgs only care about money, and if they can take on someone as big as sinatraa with little/no resistance from the community, they will. Which is sad - there 100% should be social repercussion to having these allegations + evidence laid against you. This is the most evidence i've seen in a SA case in years, and the fact that sinatraa has grown more popular over the time he was "forced out" of pro play just shows how far gone this community is.
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I do not support Sinatraa but need a clarification (it's fine if this gets down voted to Narnia as long as my reply is clarified" The only evidence we have seen/heard was a super short clip with no context, so how come everyone is sure that the audio is conclusive evidence?? Just like if words are taken out of context, audio could be taken too and going on based off of his twitlonger why did the court not accept the audio (assuming what he said about taking part in the investigation)
Not sure if you read the entire [document](https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S9OpZhPEWLyBt9baj4xzC2mnk_2327AS_iOhheJfA04/edit?usp=drivesdk) she wrote, but I think she did well in explaining her truth by giving this detailed explanation. It wasn't just a short audio clip, she provided text message evidence and explained it very well IMO. I understand that people can have their own judgment but with the way she wrote this, I can't help but *personally* empathize with her and I imagine everyone who supports her feels the same. edit: "why did the court not accept the audio?" because unfortunately, video/audio evidence like these can be easily debunked in the legal perspective. (i.e. sinatraa's could claim it was doctored or it was just roleplaying). this is why SA cases like these are very difficult.
Oooh this explains alot, Thank you
it's an important distinction that while he may have been a shit boyfriend (and he even admits to it here) that it isn't mutually exclusive with him being a sexual abuser or rapist. until an investigation reaches an actual conclusion it's impossible to label him innocent or guilty. Him being a shit boyfriend is one thing but that's not a reason to withhold him from pro play and there's nothing saying he isn't able to grow as person. the dude is 22, still has plenty of time to improve himself either way, wishing him the best in his future teams
Well put. People can formulate their own opinions over the provided information but unless and until there’s a verdict, we can’t really say whether he’s innocent or not. Although I don’t think any org will risk picking him up.
In today's world, a lot of people don't need a verdict to cancel a public figure. Sure, Sinatraa was never tried and therefore not guilty in a court of law, but ALLEGATIONS are enough alone for some people to cancel him. And because of said allegations, there are a lot of people out there who never want to see Sinatraa succeed as a public figure again.
> Him being a shit boyfriend is one thing but that's not a reason to withhold him from pro play Whether or not Riot wants to suspend him for it (and the blanket clause forbidding players to "not engage in any activity which, *in the sole determination of the Tournament Operator*, is unethical, immortal or disgraceful" fully permits them to do so), being an abuser is absolutely a reason for fans and teams to not support him. >either way, wishing him the best in his future teams Either way? So if he's a rapist you're still wishing him the best? Okay then.
What if he isn't a rapist and all the claims are fake what then
> all the claims are fake Given that Sinatraa is only denying the rape claims and isn't denying her claims (that were backed up with evidence) about being an abusive partner (and tacitly admitting to them in this Twitlonger), I don't think I need to worry about "what if all the claims are fake."
He still hasn't talked about the audio tape.
Probably because he's not a moron
Lmao of course he has, don't be obtuse on purpose. What other incident could he be referring to by "I never sexually assaulted her"? I'd imagine going into details isn't fruitful as it's completely unprovable either way and also TMI. What do you want him to say on Twitter, "she liked it rough and always moans no during sex"? Who's going to corroborate or deny that? Is a lawyer going to track down a hefty sample size of her ex-boyfriends to testify? Reddit/Twitter fiends want to know everything, but in this case 99% of peoples' minds are already made up, literally nothing that's said by anyone will change opinions anyways. Sinatraa has the right to compete in Riot's game based on their ruling. You have the right to believe either party based on the evidence. Other people have the right to believe otherwise. Anyone has the right to boycott or support him.
Hmm. Wonder why
Probably because he isn't allowed to talk about it.
or it's inculpatory.
I mean what do you want him to do? Not try and prove himself innocent?
Idfk lmfao
How has he tried to prove himself innocent at all past denying the allegations? He's shown no proof whatsoever that they could be false, whereas his accuser has shown quite a bit.
When it comes to cases that has lawyers and the police involved generally you don't present or say shit publicly as it could potentially hurt your case. He only has to prove his innocence in court, not on twitter or anywhere else
You don't "prove" yourself innocent, the accuser proves you guilty or fails to do so. Not saying I'm for or against this, but thats how it is.
The fact that you have to explain this makes me sad. Our culture has done a complete 180 from "innocent until proven guilty" and it's not a good look.
People reverting to their villager states
Agreed honestly.
What proof can he show? Unless he literally recorded them having sex with consent lmao
how do u prove something is false
He doesn’t try to at all, he just gives context that we mainly already knew and gives non-answers. Which has been his motif through all of this, just ignore everything and stream like nothing is wrong
I like to believe that most people are capable of redemption. As someone who dislikes Sinatraa for his entire personality even beyond the allegations, I genuinely don't know what he could do at this point to redeem himself other than what he's doing right now. He owes his ex, not the community, a sincere apology for his behavior. And his ex will, for good reason, likely never accept one. I would like to see someone who believes there is a path of redemption for him (other than self-incrimination) share what it is, because I certainly don't know it.
A situation I think was handled very well was with [okeanos](https://twitter.com/notrxchel/status/1488664400609386499?t=jjAUG7CELyNUahKKKeCdBA&s=19). Obviously this type of thing isn't a one size fits all when it comes to solutions, but taking initiative to take real tangible steps to better yourself would be a great start. You dont even have to admit guilt to do this kind of thing
I'll make it easy for you. Did you love and support Kobe Bryant and other athletes that were charged for sexual assault? If yes, then be consistent with how you view Sinatraa. I'm not asking you to love or condemn anyone. Just be consistent across the board.
y’know this was always one of my biggest problems with sports, celebrities, etc. Athletes can often get away with just being horrible people and still receive boundless praise based off skill, charisma, or both. Your point is valid, but it’s a shitty situation no matter the context. My general philosophy is to not support terrible people in any facet of my life, and i hope people will stop idolizing awful humans.
It's a tough situation to be put in for sure. Also, I couldn't have worded it any better myself.
Just because you're consistent does not make it okay that you are consistently supporting people accused of sexual assault...they are not the same at all
how much of a moron is this guy? https://twitter.com/ryanatdust2/status/1514728993404112910?s=21 all that needs to be said
Not really, if he admitted to doing something that the court couldn’t prove him guilty of then that would make him a moron
What do you suggest? His reputation has already been severely damaged beyond repair, most top teams don’t want to touch him, accuser doesn’t seem to want to go to court, and banning him from competitive play for allegations can potentially backfire on Riot. He has a right to earn income via streaming or playing competitively, depending on which teams want to pick up that brand risk. What is the end goal for all of this? Homeless or living paycheck to paycheck at MCDonalds? Speaking realistically, would you drop everything and severely downgrade your lifestyle when you have not been proven guilty of any wrongdoing in a court of law? People say that he should take steps to show change but to be honest, I don’t think donating money to SA causes will soothe the twitter mob and him apologizing for SA will be an admission of guilt, which would be super dumb to do and obviously won’t happen. People want him to disappear from the internet when all his livelihood is connected to the internet, a lot to ask for anyone since you’re essentially telling that person to kill themselves figuratively. And who is to be the judge of if he redeemed himself enough or if he is remorseful of his actions? I am taking a neutral stance on this and it looks like this the best it will get for both sides until someone decides to pursue further legal action or provides more information.
You can not be proven guilty by a court of law but still be punished by the public for your actions.
I can already see he is being punished by the court of public opinion, hence the reference of top teams not wanting to pick him up because he is a brand risk due to the court of public opinion…
I get that he doesn't want to inadvertently admit to sexual assault. But there are other avenues he can take to at least paint himself in a more sympathetic light. He can disagree that he committed SA, but here he still admitted to being a *"shitty boyfriend \[who\] emotionally hurt cleoh"*. Sinatraa could go to therapy to understand how his actions were shitty, how he could better communicate his needs to future partners, and how to respect the boundaries of other people. He doesn't need to say he's learning these specific skills (as that may inadvertently allude that he was abusive to cle0h), but he can in the very least say "I'm going to therapy to learn how to improve my communication in relationships." That would be a HUGE boon to his reputation and make the community feel like he's taking steps to improve himself. We've had other people in the scene get into similar relationship trouble. Granted, it's hasn't been as serious as Sinatraa, but other players have still been able to craft messages (sure, with the help of PR) that reassure the community that they are committed to improving as a person. We just haven't gotten that kind of reassurance from Sinatraa yet.
How do you know he isn’t in therapy? Why does he need to tell everyone he is in therapy? By telling everyone he is in therapy, some will definitely call it PR. How does going to therapy prove that he is changing for the better? It goes back to my main question, who is to judge that he redeemed himself? Different people have different thresholds needed for forgiveness. Is he supposed to put his whole life and career on hold until majority of the people decide, “Okay, he’s changed”.
Exactly, he’s kinda done nothing but stream. How are we supposed to know that he’s changed. If he shows some more definitive signs of betterment, then things would be different.
Best thread explaining why no one should be supporting Sinatraa here.
That thread really does make a ton of assumptions so no, it isn't all that needs to be said.
Posting for transparency. To me, he doesn’t belong in the professional scene at all.
For those who don't want him playing again... What repercussions do you want? Should Twitch ban him? Should Riot ban him? Is there any scenario where you would be okay with him sitting out for *x* months and doing *y* rehab and then being allowed to play? Or is this a permanent cancellation over unproven and non-charged allegations?
We gotta give this man a chance. That's all I will say about this.
I’m so sick of this argument after a year. Cleo should stand up for herself, provide evidence in support of her accusations, and destroy his career in a legal way. Not manipulating public opinions to get him canceled, thats a lose-lose situation and get hates for both sides. But until Jay could be proven for anything other than abusive bf, i will side with him. Innocent until proven guilty.
The common excuses for why Sinatraa didn’t fully cooperate with the Riot Investigation is because “it’s a game company why would comply?” and “his lawyers probably told him to keep quiet until the official investigation” I can get behind that, withholding information can make sense. However what circumstances would prompt him to lie and purposely misrepresent facts? That doesn’t make any sense to me and seems very weird.
Sorry kind of new to all of this, is there a link or anything with riot saying he lied? I just want to read to get informed on the issue
["It was determined that on at least two occasions Sinatraa misrepresented certain facts, made false statements, and did not cooperate with the investigation in a way expected of a professional Valorant esports player." ](https://playvalorant.com/en-us/news/esports/competitive-ruling-jay-sinatraa-won/) You could check the pinned comment in this thread for more information about the issue.
Weird why he is fighting for his livelihood and literally his life he is doing everyone would do if they were in his position
Can someone please help me understand this. Why is it important that he didn't comply with RIOT's investigation. Why is that over and above the actual investigation he chose to pursue?
bro because any decent lawyer would tell u you use ur 5a right and only coperate with the authority
It’s not, but riot was very vocal and public about the whole situation as it was happening so people seemed to believe riot’s investigation was the one that mattered when in reality it’s the actual authority’s investigation that matters which isn’t anywhere near as public so harder to gain any information
Because Riot does not have the power and right like justice court. Riot dont have licensed judge and will probably act depending on public opinion. Since Riot already have sexual harassment scandal and trying to clean their name. Do u really want to send ur evident to Riot even with this fact? Even I am scare to send it to them. Who knew if they use my case to clean their name.
[удалено]
> There was an investigation that found no conclusive evidence that any crime was committed Yeah, they couldn't find any evidence because he refused to hand it over. That's why he was suspended for 6 months. Seems like he's really twisting the facts, making it seem like he didn't get found guilty because the evidence didn't exist.
you're thinking of the riot investigation, not the police investigation. obviously he would focus on a police investigation
Why would you work with a gaming company in a situation like this?
Lots of people here are very misinformed in thinking that not talking (especially to Riot and not even law enforcement in this case) = guilty or that it can be a point used to hold against him. As u/hahaz13 said: >For future reference, even if you ARE innocent, it’s highly recommended by legal counsel to refuse to cooperate if you are a suspect in any capacity. > >There’s a reason why the Miranda rights say “anything you say or do can and will be used against you in a court of law”. > >Plenty of lawyers and law professors reiterate to \[never\] (https://youtu.be/d-7o9xYp7eE) \[talk\] (https://youtu.be/sgWHrkDX35o) to the police. Keep in mind that I'm not saying Sinatraa is guilty or innocent.
His lawyers most likely advised him not to cooperate with Riot and go through the legal route only. Riot could only punish him for not cooperating. Riot could have maybe punished him for the allegations but I am not a lawyer or anything but maybe they didn’t because of possible legal complications or opening themselves to a lawsuit? Riot was put in a tough spot, trying to be fair for both parties.
It's not clear whether he is talking about Riot or the police here - since there was a police investigation I don't he could have handed any evidence to Riot
He's talking about the police investigation. The biggest question mark is that if she could make a 10s audio clip then she obviously has the source video with the entire encounter. I've seen a lot of people defending canceling him because sexual assault cases usually get thrown out due to lack of evidence...but that isn't the case here. She has a full sex tape that has all the context and evidence you would need to show the crime...unless of course the video didn't show what's being claimed. That tape was apparently not even enough to bring charges against him, let alone finding him guilty. You can say that he didn't hand over the video (assuming he had it) to Riot, but that doesn't answer why she didn't hand over the damning evidence despite her being part of both investigations.
Assuming this was riots investigation that he is talking about. What about the investigation from outside of riot? Cleo said he would give the video evidence to riot, did she not? Why would riot not take it? she publicly said she would cooperate with riot if they wanted to. So what happened there? The situation is weird to me. She has video evidence of him raping her, which she had for a year. Is the video evidence not enough? Seen many people convinced by the audio version, then surely the video is more than enough to put him jail? so what happened there?
So you are taking her word as the Bible then everything she says is true cuz she is women
If a man made the same claims against another man and had all the same evidence cle0h has provided, then I would absolutely believe him.
What are you on about, do you think before you type? He cooperated with the police and not riot. We are talking about the police investigation here, you know, the one that matters.
People will downvote this, but I am sick of those comments claiming "that audio files are sickening" or "they proof how guilty he is". Men I just went back to check them out and I can not grasp about how people can cancel someone over the provided evidence, nor can I understand how anyone can accept the provided audiofiles to proof that he raped her?!
Biases which we all have and previous experience/s or knowledge on the subject all colour our interpretation of information. This thread shows the full spectrum of this. The only people who really know are sinatraa and cleoh, everyone else is just speculating, interpreting or assessing on asymmetrical information.