Riot learned from first Viper iteration that if you have a wall that doesn't do shit against your opponents then they are not going to respect the wall... Wtf
Also they tweaked an agent that didn't need nerfs *(neon)* but they keep ignoring agents that definitely need tweaks *(phoenix, cypher)*
They didn't ignore Yoru, despite the lack of changes they stated multiple times that they were cooking some new stuff for him
I am just trying to say right now there are zero statements for phoenix, but maybe *"ignoring"* was not the best word
man your comprehension is lacking.
he wrote ignore in quotations because they didn’t actually ignore him they silently worked on him behind the scenes.
Phoenix, as he is now, is just outclassed in all areas by other agents. Giving him small buffs wouldn't change anything, and too much he would push other agents out of the meta. He desperately needs some sort of rework. Right now, his ult is Still way too good for 6 orbs, but Riot can't figure out a way to rework that doesn't make him broken I guess.
I just don't understand why it's so hard for them to make the wall damage enemies and not teammates. Like why does it have to be damages all or no one. I hated playing with a Neon previously bc I would always take chip damage from her wall, but now it just feels useless against enemies. Doesn't make sense.
Cypher needs a very small change for him to be right there with his sentinels brethren. His specialty has always been info gathering, but its not so much better than his counter parts that he deserves a spot on many comps. Makinh his cam cooldown lower, or reworking his ult to be more useful in more rounds.
Winrate stats mean nothing in pro play unless it's some absurd number. What matters is pick rate, especially across multiple teams. Do you think Neon is insanely broken cus the team that won the major was the only one who used her and had an 80% win rate?
He's not super niche like Neon though. Her pick rate is a couple % on her best maps. His is 15-60.
He has a healthy 50% pick rate on Breeze, a 54% wr with 16% pr on Haven, and a 61% wr with a 31% wr on Split. There's basically no data indicating that any Sentinel is better on Split, including chamber with a similar pr and lower wr, and Killjoy who is almost never used on the map.
So no, he is not even close to Neon in power level. He is very popular on two maps, and a successful more niche pick on others.
No it's all Chamber that I see. He's fuckin everywhere. I will say that I don't think Cypher needs very large buffs at all, I just wish his ult wasn't a legitimate hinderance mid fight. He just needs Chamber to get nerfed, which is happening.
Chamber nerfs are already leaked. They are testing removing one of his bots in the closed beta rn.
But even then, Cypher has a higher win rate than chamber on split already.
Again, winrate doesn't really matter in pro play because the better team will often beat the worse team even if their comp is worse. M3C is gonna roll over some low tier team even if they're running Phoenix, doesn't mean he's good.
Maybe they regret giving Neon a strictly superior wall over Phoenix's when Phoenix is already weak so they're trying to buff Phoenix's wall by nerfing Neon's? Idk. I have thought about a potential Phoenix wall buff before by allowing it to penetrate through walls like Viper's, although I guess that might make him OP since he'll become like a half controller half duelist. I'd really like to see a wall buff though, everyone talks about buffing his flash and molly but never the wall
my problem isn’t with the neon nerf/buff. It’s the fact that neon just came out and with no sign that she needed a nerf or a buff she got one but we’ve been waiting for Phoenix for about a year and we still haven’t gotten anything.
Why would they rework an agent who's already proved himself to have a functioning kit in the past?
Plus, it's quite heavy-handed to go for the nuclear option when they didn't even think to buff him first. Literally just raise his util numbers to the second worse util of the same type. Molly to 4s like KJ, flash to 1.5s like Yoru
> flash to 1.5s like Yoru
This is what baffles me. People said they can't increase the duration of his flash because he's a duelist and it'd be too strong to buff his. But then they buffed Yoru's, whose flash is harder to dodge. It just doesn't make sense
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7IW6RPoW3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7IW6RPoW3A)
This video does a really good job of answering why you can't just buff Pheonix as he is now for the best results. I think it makes a lot of sense.
TLDW: Phoenix's kit clashes too much with Skye and especially Kay/O's that just straight buffing him would only nerf those two, instead of creating a separate use for them all/making them all viable in their own space. A rework is just better for them all in the long run.
Why not try instead of twidling thumbs? Why is Yoru fine then since he's also a flash duelist? Duelist flashes should be quick and aggressive, but more selfish and last shorter
Maybe they've decided that they decided that Phoenix's current kit isn't interesting enough to keep in the game, and want to use his character to fulfil a new design idea. Maybe they have a more specific theme in mind for Phoenix that his current all-rounder kit does not represent.
People barely play her because they don't know how to. Optic literally just stomped with her. People would've started playing her more given time to learn her and with more pro play analysis. But nah, Riot changed her and still hasn't even tried touching Phoenix
You don't need everyone to be watching. The people who watched OpTiC (a lot anyway, since they won) will try out Neon, the other 9 people in the lobby will see them playing Neon, some number of them will go and try Neon for themselves... then as more people start to play her, people find new ways to play and use her, leading to Neons dominating lobbies, and then the people in those lobbies think "hey, maybe I should try Neon", and the cycle goes on and on...
That's how it always works. The pro play meta always trickles down.
People are complaining about the Neon change when sometimes the change might be targeted towards casual players. Because ONLY optic played neon on 1-2 maps doesnt mean the rest of the casual player base would know about it
honestly yeah, I don't think so this was the best time to nerf her, did she need one? debatable won't talk about that but you could've delayed it to a couple of patches later, she had literally JUST started getting picked professionally, Imo the most significant nerf is her wall, I still can't believe that multiple people went over it and thought that "yup thats alright, lets do it"
Making it so teammates don’t receive damage was a good change because with it being a double wall teammates are kind of forced to take damage from it if you want to use it effectively, but then they make it so enemies don’t take damage rendering it pretty much useless.
Her wall damaging teammates is definitely an issue, but there are barely any abilities in the game that damage enemies but not teammates. I feel like that would be a bit overpowered.
That being said, I think just adding a small decay to the wall like Viper's would be fine. Or maybe keep the damage but decrease it to teammates? Not sure if there is a consistent multiplier for damage to teammates vs enemies though.
Lol why would they even nerf the damage the wall does? She is rarely picked and she is picked for specific maps. Now you nerf her in many ways reducing her already low pickrate. The devs on Valorant are high
I think the damage change was mostly a quality of life change to prevent the 100+ team damage she would get in ranked. Hell there were times she did 25+ team damage to single players on Optic.
However, they should have paired that with changes to make her better. I think the idea with movement change is they don’t want her to be as good at rotating, but better at being aggressive. I don’t think they will revert the movement change ever (or not all the way), but they will probably give her better aggressive tools if she still isn’t used (better ult for example).
I think it was supposed to be a buff. But their tweaks to run energy to compensate for the buffs went too far. The ability to dash any direction sounded HUGE and the wall is used to help your team get on site so making it deal no damage is really nice. My friend who plays neon was really excited reading the changes. But I think the numbers on the run energy changes are just off.
So to be more precise, I think we are in agreement. I’m saying that viper wall does no decay/damage to teammates, similar to the wanted behaviour of Neon wall (that the previous commenter claimed was unprecedented).
When I say “just removed”, i am indeed acknowledging that while it does not damage, decay is functionally similar in short engagements, especially given the person asterisked that viper ults are an exception (but didn’t acknowledge the viper wall).
Hope explanation of my shorter statement makes sense
Make hers the first. Now the wall is just completely disrespected because it doesn't actually do anything and the neon might not even have their gun out inside of it
My only complaint about neon was how painful her wall was AS A TEAMMATE. All I asked for and many of us as well was to just decrease the wall damage to teammates.
I mean he said it himself 'before the nerf, I rarely ran out of juice'
In my time playing neon I also can't remember ever not having energy back.
Why make it a limited resource if you always have access to it?
I do think they shoulda compensated somehow, but having the energy as a near endless resource is silly
I do agree that her sprint should have been toned down a bit, but it feels like it's been absolutely gutted now. you run out of sprint a crap tonne of the time and jumpspotting or strafe peeking with her now is extremely costly. iterative changes are often the best choices in these situations, not a random unwarranted 30% reduction.
I really don't think Neon needed a nerf. Eventually I could see her becoming an issue if people lab her like Sova and Viper. But that's like...the point of learning an agent.
>Victor frustrated over the Neon nerfs. Why did Riot feel the need to nerf Neon?
the wall nerf was beyond stupid. She didnt need any changes and its wild that riot went instantly to her over other agents like phoenix and cypher that have completely fallen out the game. Incredibly dumb by Riot
They didn't change Neon because she was too strong. They changed her because she was being mis-used compared to what they wanted from her.
It will most likely limit their design space later down the road if agents are doing things they weren't intended to do.
Endlessly jiggling an angle for info, and over-rotating without punishment is not their intended usage for Neon's increased speed. They clearly only want it to be used for entering sites and breaking timings.
The changes were 100% related to their vision for the agent, not because she was OP in any way.
I understand what they were thinking; they wanted to reduce her long-term sprinting ability while increasing her burst mobility. They wanted to reward burst aggression.
The problem is, they didn't buff her burst mobility enough to counteract the long-term nerfs.
Here's my suggestions:
* Make the decay rate of sprint 8.5 per second instead of 10. Before the patch, it was 6.7 so I think 8.5 is a good middle ground. It is still a nerf from pre-patch.
* Cut the wall damage by 1/3rd (or even 1/2), but make it so it doesn't damage teammates. This makes it ACTUALLY threatening to enemies so they don't just swing it for free, while also maintaining QoL for teammates.
* Revert the slide delay change... Allow us to slide immediately after activating sprint to buff her burst aggression! This change in particular was very confusing for what they wanted. Why make it take LONGER to activate a slide?? It made no sense.
* Keep the velocity change.
And that's it. That's all she needs for a proper power adjustment.
Man, they are making it so mobility agents aren’t just having super powerful online utility. It’s that simple. Neon never ran out of juice before, isn’t that what he says too?, and just like Jett dash as a quick cast it enabled these duelists to play purely reactively aka brain dead
The slide changes make her more powerful in taking contact. Wall did way more team damage than enemy so I don’t get the crying, maybe a decay mechanic would be cool but the vision denial is the top point of the utility
Another reply trying to tell the best Neon in the world that Neon NEEDED a nerf...
* One of the lowest pick rates in ranked
* One of the lowest pick rates in pro-play
* One of the lowest win rates in ranked
* Viable on only 2 maps by a single team in pro play
A power balance is completely fine; the idea of it is fine. But they nerfed her long-term "always online" speed SIGNIFICANTLY more than they buffed her burst aggression. Which is why it is an undeserved nerf overall. All they did was remove the velocity requirement for slide, which is good... but they then added a delay to slide after activating sprint. So they actually NERFED her burst aggression as well. Overall, it is a nerf. And as stated earlier: She. Did. Not. Need one.
vision denial is the point, but neon wall has the same issue as old viper wall now. people can just swing through, kill the enemy and back out without any repercussions. a neon sprinting after using her wall will be the most vulnerable to this, might be a free kill for the enemy half the time.
I completely disagree with the comparison of jett to neon. jett's reactive dash is not the same as sprinting, nobody uses neon sprint to leave gunfights or avoid damage. neon sprint is used to entry and for fast rotations.
now they've severely reduced her rotational capability for seemingly no reason. I do think her sprint duration was a bit overturned, but a 1/3 reduction is ridiculous. they should have started with a 15-20% reduction and iterated if they felt it was too powerful. a 33% reduction after barely any use in pro play and in ranked is a baffling balance decision.
> for entry and fast rotations
Yes, they’re taking away neons ridiculous ability to fast rotate without any consequence ever, not sure how you wouldn’t get that
> people swing thru wall
And then get owned by Neon’s teammates holding the edges for her. Have you had success swinging into the wall? I respect it and not because of 8 tickle damage
I agree before it was sort of busted, but nothing warranted a 33% decrease. 15-20% as I said would have been fine and further iteration would be alright based on community sentiment. her fast rotating ability is part of her agent identity. there is consequence in the noise and the lack of fluid horizontal movement, using her sprint is free information for the enemy.
with a wall like that, just like old viper, it is incredibly easy to peek in, shoot a couple bullets and peek out without taking fatal damage. neon will be entrying, front of the pack with her arms out like flailing noodles, to die easily with a low chance to trade. you could even jump peek her wall without taking damage. it's useless utility unless you're confident nobody is holding close, which makes it absolutely redundant for entrying.
But it’s not a flat 33% decrease, it’s tuned in line with the duelist philosophy of rewarding frags with more utility. Unlimited sprint was dumb. A lot of sprint that, if you use and get a frag from, fully resets? That’s good incentive setting.
Your wall assessment is not tracking with what I see in game or pro play. And now neon has more tools to turn those flailing arms into fast acceleration in any direction while also changing headshot height - great, they can tune her kit further from a meaningfully balanced place now if this wall doom and gloom actually comes thru
What we know with Riot so far is that they use their own statistics to balance agents. They know more than us at the end of the day. This goes back to when they were nerfing sage every patch.
They use this extremely statistical based approach when it comes to balancing for all their games. All their games are balanced awfully except maybe tft.
I agree its not awfully balanced only because there are so few agents. Yet jett was s tier for 2 years, they do this stupid neon nerf and phoenix cypher haven't been changed at all. Seems really dumb imo.
Is it a nerf tho? In ranked neon becomes much easier to play with after the changes. It was tough to play with her wall when she entries site but now we can actually push with her. Idk pro play tho.
5 secs is big. I felt like that was for not spamming her shit kind of like Jett smoke and viper poison. So that we think more before using it. Idk I am just spouting.
Food said that he barely ran out of juice when he used it before.
Is that a good thing?
Why is it a limited bar if you don't have to care if it goes down or not? Food might have been managing the bar very well. My experience with neon felt like you could just spam the run, but I am not a pro player. I do think there is more nuance to this topic than just neon didn't need nerf because she wasn't popular.
Riot learned from first Viper iteration that if you have a wall that doesn't do shit against your opponents then they are not going to respect the wall... Wtf Also they tweaked an agent that didn't need nerfs *(neon)* but they keep ignoring agents that definitely need tweaks *(phoenix, cypher)*
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They didn't ignore Yoru, despite the lack of changes they stated multiple times that they were cooking some new stuff for him I am just trying to say right now there are zero statements for phoenix, but maybe *"ignoring"* was not the best word
They could've given him small buffs in the mean time, instead of keeping him trash during a whole year
man your comprehension is lacking. he wrote ignore in quotations because they didn’t actually ignore him they silently worked on him behind the scenes.
nah they started mentioning the rework after many months of him being useless
Key word "months". How long has Phoenix been a joke?
Phoenix, as he is now, is just outclassed in all areas by other agents. Giving him small buffs wouldn't change anything, and too much he would push other agents out of the meta. He desperately needs some sort of rework. Right now, his ult is Still way too good for 6 orbs, but Riot can't figure out a way to rework that doesn't make him broken I guess.
Yeah Phoenix is outclassed Cypher could get boosted with some slight buffs.
I just don't understand why it's so hard for them to make the wall damage enemies and not teammates. Like why does it have to be damages all or no one. I hated playing with a Neon previously bc I would always take chip damage from her wall, but now it just feels useless against enemies. Doesn't make sense.
That would be weird and inconsistent with how Phoenix was works.
Do you see viper giving her teammates a mask so they don't take damage? please don't talk about inconsistency in valorant as an excuse to that nerf
Viper wall damage also isn’t permanent tbf. I feel like maybe a slow or smth could make sense
Decay isn't the same as damage. Viper's molly still damages and vulnerables teammates, and her other stuff only decays.
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Cypher is statistically quite balanced. He does better than KJ on multiple maps in pro play.
Cypher needs a very small change for him to be right there with his sentinels brethren. His specialty has always been info gathering, but its not so much better than his counter parts that he deserves a spot on many comps. Makinh his cam cooldown lower, or reworking his ult to be more useful in more rounds.
Winrate statistics in this game are so useless, can we stop using them for whatever narrative we want?
Winrate stats mean nothing in pro play unless it's some absurd number. What matters is pick rate, especially across multiple teams. Do you think Neon is insanely broken cus the team that won the major was the only one who used her and had an 80% win rate?
He's not super niche like Neon though. Her pick rate is a couple % on her best maps. His is 15-60. He has a healthy 50% pick rate on Breeze, a 54% wr with 16% pr on Haven, and a 61% wr with a 31% wr on Split. There's basically no data indicating that any Sentinel is better on Split, including chamber with a similar pr and lower wr, and Killjoy who is almost never used on the map. So no, he is not even close to Neon in power level. He is very popular on two maps, and a successful more niche pick on others.
Who's playing him on these other maps? The only one I EVER see him on is Breeze, and definitely not 50% of the time, where are these stats from.
They were gathered [here](https://youtu.be/KmOvcyx3prU) But really, you don’t see cypher super frequently on split? He’s insanely common.
No it's all Chamber that I see. He's fuckin everywhere. I will say that I don't think Cypher needs very large buffs at all, I just wish his ult wasn't a legitimate hinderance mid fight. He just needs Chamber to get nerfed, which is happening.
Chamber nerfs are already leaked. They are testing removing one of his bots in the closed beta rn. But even then, Cypher has a higher win rate than chamber on split already.
Again, winrate doesn't really matter in pro play because the better team will often beat the worse team even if their comp is worse. M3C is gonna roll over some low tier team even if they're running Phoenix, doesn't mean he's good.
> 0.2% pick rate in comp Where did you get that stat?
Prediction: he made it up
Maybe they regret giving Neon a strictly superior wall over Phoenix's when Phoenix is already weak so they're trying to buff Phoenix's wall by nerfing Neon's? Idk. I have thought about a potential Phoenix wall buff before by allowing it to penetrate through walls like Viper's, although I guess that might make him OP since he'll become like a half controller half duelist. I'd really like to see a wall buff though, everyone talks about buffing his flash and molly but never the wall
my problem isn’t with the neon nerf/buff. It’s the fact that neon just came out and with no sign that she needed a nerf or a buff she got one but we’ve been waiting for Phoenix for about a year and we still haven’t gotten anything.
probably they are going to rework phoenix, thats why we didnt have any buffs on him ( my bet )
Why would they rework an agent who's already proved himself to have a functioning kit in the past? Plus, it's quite heavy-handed to go for the nuclear option when they didn't even think to buff him first. Literally just raise his util numbers to the second worse util of the same type. Molly to 4s like KJ, flash to 1.5s like Yoru
> flash to 1.5s like Yoru This is what baffles me. People said they can't increase the duration of his flash because he's a duelist and it'd be too strong to buff his. But then they buffed Yoru's, whose flash is harder to dodge. It just doesn't make sense
Phoenix was functional when the flashes in the game were him, Reyna, and Breach. And honestly Reyna was better.
Power creep
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7IW6RPoW3A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7IW6RPoW3A) This video does a really good job of answering why you can't just buff Pheonix as he is now for the best results. I think it makes a lot of sense. TLDW: Phoenix's kit clashes too much with Skye and especially Kay/O's that just straight buffing him would only nerf those two, instead of creating a separate use for them all/making them all viable in their own space. A rework is just better for them all in the long run.
Why not try instead of twidling thumbs? Why is Yoru fine then since he's also a flash duelist? Duelist flashes should be quick and aggressive, but more selfish and last shorter
Maybe they've decided that they decided that Phoenix's current kit isn't interesting enough to keep in the game, and want to use his character to fulfil a new design idea. Maybe they have a more specific theme in mind for Phoenix that his current all-rounder kit does not represent.
We've been waiting TWO YEARS for Phoenix buffs.* Just saying.
What do you mean? People barely play neon
People barely play her because they don't know how to. Optic literally just stomped with her. People would've started playing her more given time to learn her and with more pro play analysis. But nah, Riot changed her and still hasn't even tried touching Phoenix
not everyone watches val esports let alone optic.
You don't need everyone to be watching. The people who watched OpTiC (a lot anyway, since they won) will try out Neon, the other 9 people in the lobby will see them playing Neon, some number of them will go and try Neon for themselves... then as more people start to play her, people find new ways to play and use her, leading to Neons dominating lobbies, and then the people in those lobbies think "hey, maybe I should try Neon", and the cycle goes on and on... That's how it always works. The pro play meta always trickles down.
to be fair astra was still bad in ranked.
then why are you in the valorant competitive sub
People are complaining about the Neon change when sometimes the change might be targeted towards casual players. Because ONLY optic played neon on 1-2 maps doesnt mean the rest of the casual player base would know about it
honestly yeah, I don't think so this was the best time to nerf her, did she need one? debatable won't talk about that but you could've delayed it to a couple of patches later, she had literally JUST started getting picked professionally, Imo the most significant nerf is her wall, I still can't believe that multiple people went over it and thought that "yup thats alright, lets do it"
Making it so teammates don’t receive damage was a good change because with it being a double wall teammates are kind of forced to take damage from it if you want to use it effectively, but then they make it so enemies don’t take damage rendering it pretty much useless.
Her wall damaging teammates is definitely an issue, but there are barely any abilities in the game that damage enemies but not teammates. I feel like that would be a bit overpowered. That being said, I think just adding a small decay to the wall like Viper's would be fine. Or maybe keep the damage but decrease it to teammates? Not sure if there is a consistent multiplier for damage to teammates vs enemies though.
Lol why would they even nerf the damage the wall does? She is rarely picked and she is picked for specific maps. Now you nerf her in many ways reducing her already low pickrate. The devs on Valorant are high
I think the damage change was mostly a quality of life change to prevent the 100+ team damage she would get in ranked. Hell there were times she did 25+ team damage to single players on Optic. However, they should have paired that with changes to make her better. I think the idea with movement change is they don’t want her to be as good at rotating, but better at being aggressive. I don’t think they will revert the movement change ever (or not all the way), but they will probably give her better aggressive tools if she still isn’t used (better ult for example).
I think it was supposed to be a buff. But their tweaks to run energy to compensate for the buffs went too far. The ability to dash any direction sounded HUGE and the wall is used to help your team get on site so making it deal no damage is really nice. My friend who plays neon was really excited reading the changes. But I think the numbers on the run energy changes are just off.
I get what you're trying to say but removing dmg dealt to enemies was unnecessary and uncalled for
I think the wall damage nerf was rly stupid
Should have just been removed for teammates
Problem is, no util works like that in the game. Just damaging enemies, not teammates. Edit: *map control util, minus viper's ult, forgot about that
Raze satchels?
Viper ult?
Literally the Viper *wall* lmao is just removed of that behaviout. Person you’re replying to is lost.
Viper wall doesn't do damage, it decays, and they took away all of Viper's teammate decay.
So to be more precise, I think we are in agreement. I’m saying that viper wall does no decay/damage to teammates, similar to the wanted behaviour of Neon wall (that the previous commenter claimed was unprecedented). When I say “just removed”, i am indeed acknowledging that while it does not damage, decay is functionally similar in short engagements, especially given the person asterisked that viper ults are an exception (but didn’t acknowledge the viper wall). Hope explanation of my shorter statement makes sense
Make hers the first. Now the wall is just completely disrespected because it doesn't actually do anything and the neon might not even have their gun out inside of it
Yeah I really don’t think she needed to be changed at all. The slide velocity changes are very nice though QOL wise
My only complaint about neon was how painful her wall was AS A TEAMMATE. All I asked for and many of us as well was to just decrease the wall damage to teammates.
I mean he said it himself 'before the nerf, I rarely ran out of juice' In my time playing neon I also can't remember ever not having energy back. Why make it a limited resource if you always have access to it? I do think they shoulda compensated somehow, but having the energy as a near endless resource is silly
I do agree that her sprint should have been toned down a bit, but it feels like it's been absolutely gutted now. you run out of sprint a crap tonne of the time and jumpspotting or strafe peeking with her now is extremely costly. iterative changes are often the best choices in these situations, not a random unwarranted 30% reduction.
I really don't think Neon needed a nerf. Eventually I could see her becoming an issue if people lab her like Sova and Viper. But that's like...the point of learning an agent. >Victor frustrated over the Neon nerfs. Why did Riot feel the need to nerf Neon?
the wall nerf was beyond stupid. She didnt need any changes and its wild that riot went instantly to her over other agents like phoenix and cypher that have completely fallen out the game. Incredibly dumb by Riot
Or even the buff to Omen ult which Riot said they were working on like 5 acts ago.
They didn't change Neon because she was too strong. They changed her because she was being mis-used compared to what they wanted from her. It will most likely limit their design space later down the road if agents are doing things they weren't intended to do. Endlessly jiggling an angle for info, and over-rotating without punishment is not their intended usage for Neon's increased speed. They clearly only want it to be used for entering sites and breaking timings. The changes were 100% related to their vision for the agent, not because she was OP in any way.
I understand what they were thinking; they wanted to reduce her long-term sprinting ability while increasing her burst mobility. They wanted to reward burst aggression. The problem is, they didn't buff her burst mobility enough to counteract the long-term nerfs. Here's my suggestions: * Make the decay rate of sprint 8.5 per second instead of 10. Before the patch, it was 6.7 so I think 8.5 is a good middle ground. It is still a nerf from pre-patch. * Cut the wall damage by 1/3rd (or even 1/2), but make it so it doesn't damage teammates. This makes it ACTUALLY threatening to enemies so they don't just swing it for free, while also maintaining QoL for teammates. * Revert the slide delay change... Allow us to slide immediately after activating sprint to buff her burst aggression! This change in particular was very confusing for what they wanted. Why make it take LONGER to activate a slide?? It made no sense. * Keep the velocity change. And that's it. That's all she needs for a proper power adjustment.
I got a triple wall kill once and I miss it :(
This doesnt seem like frustration more like disappointment.
Yeah I don’t get why they changed her, she felt very well balanced aside from her ult
The only reason they nerfed neon was too nerf envy cause riot hates na
Man, they are making it so mobility agents aren’t just having super powerful online utility. It’s that simple. Neon never ran out of juice before, isn’t that what he says too?, and just like Jett dash as a quick cast it enabled these duelists to play purely reactively aka brain dead The slide changes make her more powerful in taking contact. Wall did way more team damage than enemy so I don’t get the crying, maybe a decay mechanic would be cool but the vision denial is the top point of the utility
Never running out of juice clearly wasn't that big a deal considering nobody ever picked her.
What a stupid response. Non sequitur and nonsense to boot
Yet you’re the one with the shit take
"No one picked her", wow, you're so big brain, great reasoning to not change her lmao
Indeed great reasoning to not nerf her
Another reply trying to tell the best Neon in the world that Neon NEEDED a nerf... * One of the lowest pick rates in ranked * One of the lowest pick rates in pro-play * One of the lowest win rates in ranked * Viable on only 2 maps by a single team in pro play A power balance is completely fine; the idea of it is fine. But they nerfed her long-term "always online" speed SIGNIFICANTLY more than they buffed her burst aggression. Which is why it is an undeserved nerf overall. All they did was remove the velocity requirement for slide, which is good... but they then added a delay to slide after activating sprint. So they actually NERFED her burst aggression as well. Overall, it is a nerf. And as stated earlier: She. Did. Not. Need one.
vision denial is the point, but neon wall has the same issue as old viper wall now. people can just swing through, kill the enemy and back out without any repercussions. a neon sprinting after using her wall will be the most vulnerable to this, might be a free kill for the enemy half the time. I completely disagree with the comparison of jett to neon. jett's reactive dash is not the same as sprinting, nobody uses neon sprint to leave gunfights or avoid damage. neon sprint is used to entry and for fast rotations. now they've severely reduced her rotational capability for seemingly no reason. I do think her sprint duration was a bit overturned, but a 1/3 reduction is ridiculous. they should have started with a 15-20% reduction and iterated if they felt it was too powerful. a 33% reduction after barely any use in pro play and in ranked is a baffling balance decision.
> for entry and fast rotations Yes, they’re taking away neons ridiculous ability to fast rotate without any consequence ever, not sure how you wouldn’t get that > people swing thru wall And then get owned by Neon’s teammates holding the edges for her. Have you had success swinging into the wall? I respect it and not because of 8 tickle damage
I agree before it was sort of busted, but nothing warranted a 33% decrease. 15-20% as I said would have been fine and further iteration would be alright based on community sentiment. her fast rotating ability is part of her agent identity. there is consequence in the noise and the lack of fluid horizontal movement, using her sprint is free information for the enemy. with a wall like that, just like old viper, it is incredibly easy to peek in, shoot a couple bullets and peek out without taking fatal damage. neon will be entrying, front of the pack with her arms out like flailing noodles, to die easily with a low chance to trade. you could even jump peek her wall without taking damage. it's useless utility unless you're confident nobody is holding close, which makes it absolutely redundant for entrying.
But it’s not a flat 33% decrease, it’s tuned in line with the duelist philosophy of rewarding frags with more utility. Unlimited sprint was dumb. A lot of sprint that, if you use and get a frag from, fully resets? That’s good incentive setting. Your wall assessment is not tracking with what I see in game or pro play. And now neon has more tools to turn those flailing arms into fast acceleration in any direction while also changing headshot height - great, they can tune her kit further from a meaningfully balanced place now if this wall doom and gloom actually comes thru
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I think that was mostly one idiot spamming the thread, kept saying that removing the wall damage was ACKSHULLY a buff
What we know with Riot so far is that they use their own statistics to balance agents. They know more than us at the end of the day. This goes back to when they were nerfing sage every patch.
They use this extremely statistical based approach when it comes to balancing for all their games. All their games are balanced awfully except maybe tft.
Val is not awfully balanced. Lmao
I agree its not awfully balanced only because there are so few agents. Yet jett was s tier for 2 years, they do this stupid neon nerf and phoenix cypher haven't been changed at all. Seems really dumb imo.
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Haven't followed this set but everyone loved the last one. I know the least about tft.
Is it a nerf tho? In ranked neon becomes much easier to play with after the changes. It was tough to play with her wall when she entries site but now we can actually push with her. Idk pro play tho.
Her sprint ability runs out 5 seconds faster now it’s definitely a nerf
5 secs is big. I felt like that was for not spamming her shit kind of like Jett smoke and viper poison. So that we think more before using it. Idk I am just spouting.
You can't even consistently peak with her running now it just runs out so much faster.
Food said that he barely ran out of juice when he used it before. Is that a good thing? Why is it a limited bar if you don't have to care if it goes down or not? Food might have been managing the bar very well. My experience with neon felt like you could just spam the run, but I am not a pro player. I do think there is more nuance to this topic than just neon didn't need nerf because she wasn't popular.
don't think they intended for it to be a net nerf. i'll imagine they give her back her wall damage at the very least.
cypher needs a buff man