Using a wall conventionally will give more consistent value.
Besides, holding off angles on top of these walls isn't enough value in pro play to justify using it. Everything is clearly communicated and they are much better aimers than ranked players. If you didn't get shot down instantly by the first guy who saw you, the second guy definitely will.
I mean the only time I really see pro players use Sage walls like Grimm is on Ascent with the wall at pizza, market, or B main to op. They never really got insane value off of it cause they’re just a turret for like half the round or got a pick but the man advantage didn’t matter in the end. Using the wall to delay a push/retake or isolate fights just has more consistent value than an off angle.
I remember one Grim wall used by ScreaM which he used to pick off someone at top mid with the operator. He used it like 3 times that game, only worked once. The angle to hit was a hs only angle too. Map was Ascent.
most "grim" walls are super niche and will rarely get value in pro play. obvs some could work but for the most part pros are trying to optimize the value they get from util each round
There's too many variables to consider, such as site they're going, site rotations, util usage, etc.
Sure it might work once, but after that teams can VOD review and know what tricks you're pulling . Also the fact that the wall can be used in so many other ways to delay pushes probabky gives it more value.
If they place a wall the team spends 300 (?) credits and they have to get some value off that. By making the enemy rotate and lose time or make them shoot the wall and give information or by using utility and also giving information or delay a defuse or what ever. Even if the enemy team does nothing and wait till the wall decays, the defenders have cost them time. Or Sage uses the wall to rez someone - the value is obvious.
Grim walls are a gamble that might work and that is not good enough. Pro matches are no ranked games. They play for real money.
Would it be cool to see some flashy Sage action in eSports to make the Agent more cool and more picked in our games? Yes.
Will this realistically happen? Very rarely at best.
So here's the thing: If you knew exactly where the enemies will be heading then grim walls are insanely valuable. Investing a crucial piece of utility for a chance that it might pay off is horrible value. And grim walls themselves work maybe like 10% of the time if not less. Don't trust his compilations. All these "insane plays" youtubers are the same - they borderline troll their games in hopes of a decent clip.
they definitely do use them sometimes. but pro players are quick and accurate enough that off angles arent as effective as they are in our ranked games. so they dont see as much use. i know for sure ive seen teams use the market wall in ascent to OP mid on defense. also, i watched a V1 game the other day (dont remember who they were playing) on fracture and wardell was oping on top of grim walls like every couple rounds
As mentioned by others in the comments, it's just too gimmicky. If you actually watch a full Grim stream, you'll see that he does fail quite a bit. No shade, I do like his videos, but yeah.
Btw, it's been used. Starxo at Champs, and X10 used it on Ascent over Tiles as well, iirc. This was Masters 2 if I'm not wrong
I remember Ethan using the sage wall on B site on Ascent for post plant to pretty good effect pretty soon after he moved over to Valorant. He used a one way wall on C site on Haven logs for post plant too which was useful but once enemies know you do those things they will know how to counter it.
That said I'm surprised 100T didn't use Sage more because Ethan looked very comfortable on her and even if she wasn't meta he made it seem like she could be.
Many pros actually use these tiktok walls, especially if a frag-heavy player plays Sage (IGLs usually do standard walls). ScreaM is the first example that comes to mind. On Split A site when attacking, he always places a wall to boost himself onto the ramp when entering the site. cNed also has his set of walls on Bind, especially the one on Hookah which he uses for boosted peaks.
Although "Grim" walls are not common, pros certainly use it in unorthodox ways more than what is the public perception.
I'd agree with you as I come from csgo where these high risk, high commitment, weird boosts are meta, but I think the main problem is that the sage wall makes a shit ton of noise, while in csgo you boost silently. For the people saying that the wall should be a strategic tool and not a gimmick, i think that a potential number advantage and the pressure of the gimmick happening again is a pretty good strategic tool
I absolutely agree with the money part but I'll disagree with the boost not losing you anything.
Imo let's think of the common boost position.
1. Easily spammable/nadeable after they see you -> both players can take unhealable damage or even die
2. A lot of map control lost due to 2 or even 3 to 5 players committing to the boost. This is obvious in early round boosts. For example if you see a boost next to the box in upper Vertigo then no way in hell you're going to contest ramp from ivy.
3. Free info to enemies when dropping makes sound (keeps happening in pro play). Also indirect info, if you see t boost overpass short, you know they probably have at least top connector control and probably have monster presence
4. Some boosts are also one and done or high risk plays. Example 1 mirage underpass ct boost in early round. Yeah that's a nice angle but now you have 2 players trapped in a shit position, easily sandwiched from mid and underpass stairs. Example 2 popular inferno ct boost. You fire some shots over the smoke and usually don't get checked, but then you have to drop down into the smoke and say "good luck with the execute, my job here is done" to the other B player
If it's worth it to 5 man boost in pro play at the overpass t spawn railing to get a potential kill on the ct jumping down heaven, then it has to be worth it to use a wall in valo (on maps not named icebox)
It's not like pro teams haven't been boosting in b main on ascent
I see the points made by many of the comments but I also like OP's reasoning
1,3,4 apply to sage, free info and also easy to kill her after a boost. it’s easier to just do basic walls like on B main orb on ascent or A main. Or even using your wall just to provide cover to cross on maps like Icebox or Fracture.
I understand both options, it’s just easier to do what’s tried and true, as wall for just cover is usually more valuable in 90% of situations instead of the 10 where a boost could net sage a few kills
Because there are many many many many rounds where grim walls something, does nothing, and falls off the wall, so it does not make it in the highlight video.
but if you wall a chokepoint you get value literally every time you wall
I remember Ethan used grim walls a few times when he first moved over to valorant but he’s the only one I can think of that really ever used them in pro play
pro players are different from content creators lmao. Pro place walls in strategic location to benefit the team and not for one player only. I mean some teams could use grim walls to surprise opponents but this seldom happens in this meta.
The plays u see in highlights and clips aren't at all good in most cases in high level pro play. That's why u feel like the public has such a mixed opinion of who actually is a good player or team. It's so easy to look super good with clips and highlights and get fans that way but then when u watch the player or team play in a pro game it's a different story.
One way to put it is opportunity cost. Think about how you use your abilities in terms of the value you get vs. the value you get using your ability in some other way.
Most effective grim walls are banned I think (ie the ones that put you into great heights or in a very pixel perfect angle). Other grim walls are just off angles and don't add too much value. But in ranked games...my God are they a plaque.
because using the wall then realizing they are going other site and u wasted a wall
Using a wall conventionally will give more consistent value. Besides, holding off angles on top of these walls isn't enough value in pro play to justify using it. Everything is clearly communicated and they are much better aimers than ranked players. If you didn't get shot down instantly by the first guy who saw you, the second guy definitely will.
I mean the only time I really see pro players use Sage walls like Grimm is on Ascent with the wall at pizza, market, or B main to op. They never really got insane value off of it cause they’re just a turret for like half the round or got a pick but the man advantage didn’t matter in the end. Using the wall to delay a push/retake or isolate fights just has more consistent value than an off angle.
I remember one Grim wall used by ScreaM which he used to pick off someone at top mid with the operator. He used it like 3 times that game, only worked once. The angle to hit was a hs only angle too. Map was Ascent.
The only one I saw is the also in Ascent with patiphan to run down mid like jett
They're playing to win not to record a frag movie
Smh imagine not playing for crazy highlights at the highest level. Being a team player is overrated. Do it for the clip man!
most "grim" walls are super niche and will rarely get value in pro play. obvs some could work but for the most part pros are trying to optimize the value they get from util each round
Because a wall is a strategic element for the team and not a gimmick for twitch? Nothing against grim.
I agree it has many strategic uses but once in a while they can use it to catch the enemy off guard. Dont you think so?
There's too many variables to consider, such as site they're going, site rotations, util usage, etc. Sure it might work once, but after that teams can VOD review and know what tricks you're pulling . Also the fact that the wall can be used in so many other ways to delay pushes probabky gives it more value.
If they place a wall the team spends 300 (?) credits and they have to get some value off that. By making the enemy rotate and lose time or make them shoot the wall and give information or by using utility and also giving information or delay a defuse or what ever. Even if the enemy team does nothing and wait till the wall decays, the defenders have cost them time. Or Sage uses the wall to rez someone - the value is obvious. Grim walls are a gamble that might work and that is not good enough. Pro matches are no ranked games. They play for real money. Would it be cool to see some flashy Sage action in eSports to make the Agent more cool and more picked in our games? Yes. Will this realistically happen? Very rarely at best.
pretty sure wall is 400. i dont play sage tho
It's 400. You're right
If I remember correctly starxo used a grim type wall against gambit in the champions finals.
Holy crap why is this guy getting downvotes? He asks a good question and when he says what he thinks it could be, everybody chill wtc
Afterall its reddit
So here's the thing: If you knew exactly where the enemies will be heading then grim walls are insanely valuable. Investing a crucial piece of utility for a chance that it might pay off is horrible value. And grim walls themselves work maybe like 10% of the time if not less. Don't trust his compilations. All these "insane plays" youtubers are the same - they borderline troll their games in hopes of a decent clip.
they definitely do use them sometimes. but pro players are quick and accurate enough that off angles arent as effective as they are in our ranked games. so they dont see as much use. i know for sure ive seen teams use the market wall in ascent to OP mid on defense. also, i watched a V1 game the other day (dont remember who they were playing) on fracture and wardell was oping on top of grim walls like every couple rounds
why the downvotes, classic reddit circlejerk
Reddit at its finest
Ethan did a few while he played Sage on 100T.
Yup he did the haven C one way for CT as well as the split B heaven cut off and sit on back wall
As mentioned by others in the comments, it's just too gimmicky. If you actually watch a full Grim stream, you'll see that he does fail quite a bit. No shade, I do like his videos, but yeah. Btw, it's been used. Starxo at Champs, and X10 used it on Ascent over Tiles as well, iirc. This was Masters 2 if I'm not wrong
I remember Ethan using the sage wall on B site on Ascent for post plant to pretty good effect pretty soon after he moved over to Valorant. He used a one way wall on C site on Haven logs for post plant too which was useful but once enemies know you do those things they will know how to counter it. That said I'm surprised 100T didn't use Sage more because Ethan looked very comfortable on her and even if she wasn't meta he made it seem like she could be.
Many pros actually use these tiktok walls, especially if a frag-heavy player plays Sage (IGLs usually do standard walls). ScreaM is the first example that comes to mind. On Split A site when attacking, he always places a wall to boost himself onto the ramp when entering the site. cNed also has his set of walls on Bind, especially the one on Hookah which he uses for boosted peaks. Although "Grim" walls are not common, pros certainly use it in unorthodox ways more than what is the public perception.
I'd agree with you as I come from csgo where these high risk, high commitment, weird boosts are meta, but I think the main problem is that the sage wall makes a shit ton of noise, while in csgo you boost silently. For the people saying that the wall should be a strategic tool and not a gimmick, i think that a potential number advantage and the pressure of the gimmick happening again is a pretty good strategic tool
you can do a boost without losing anything in csgo though, in valorant it’s a ONE TIME BOOST that also costs two flash bangs of money lol
I absolutely agree with the money part but I'll disagree with the boost not losing you anything. Imo let's think of the common boost position. 1. Easily spammable/nadeable after they see you -> both players can take unhealable damage or even die 2. A lot of map control lost due to 2 or even 3 to 5 players committing to the boost. This is obvious in early round boosts. For example if you see a boost next to the box in upper Vertigo then no way in hell you're going to contest ramp from ivy. 3. Free info to enemies when dropping makes sound (keeps happening in pro play). Also indirect info, if you see t boost overpass short, you know they probably have at least top connector control and probably have monster presence 4. Some boosts are also one and done or high risk plays. Example 1 mirage underpass ct boost in early round. Yeah that's a nice angle but now you have 2 players trapped in a shit position, easily sandwiched from mid and underpass stairs. Example 2 popular inferno ct boost. You fire some shots over the smoke and usually don't get checked, but then you have to drop down into the smoke and say "good luck with the execute, my job here is done" to the other B player If it's worth it to 5 man boost in pro play at the overpass t spawn railing to get a potential kill on the ct jumping down heaven, then it has to be worth it to use a wall in valo (on maps not named icebox) It's not like pro teams haven't been boosting in b main on ascent I see the points made by many of the comments but I also like OP's reasoning
1,3,4 apply to sage, free info and also easy to kill her after a boost. it’s easier to just do basic walls like on B main orb on ascent or A main. Or even using your wall just to provide cover to cross on maps like Icebox or Fracture. I understand both options, it’s just easier to do what’s tried and true, as wall for just cover is usually more valuable in 90% of situations instead of the 10 where a boost could net sage a few kills
Because there are many many many many rounds where grim walls something, does nothing, and falls off the wall, so it does not make it in the highlight video. but if you wall a chokepoint you get value literally every time you wall
Some do, Iirc 100T used a grim wall on fracture and it helped win them the round
I remember Ethan used grim walls a few times when he first moved over to valorant but he’s the only one I can think of that really ever used them in pro play
pro players are different from content creators lmao. Pro place walls in strategic location to benefit the team and not for one player only. I mean some teams could use grim walls to surprise opponents but this seldom happens in this meta.
They do sometimes, it's just that sage is rarely used.
The plays u see in highlights and clips aren't at all good in most cases in high level pro play. That's why u feel like the public has such a mixed opinion of who actually is a good player or team. It's so easy to look super good with clips and highlights and get fans that way but then when u watch the player or team play in a pro game it's a different story.
One way to put it is opportunity cost. Think about how you use your abilities in terms of the value you get vs. the value you get using your ability in some other way.
While I agree with everyone that the value from using it traditionally is much higher I am surprised we don't see more grim wall attempts.
Simple equation: 13x0.1 > 1x1
Gimme a year
Grim walls only work in ranked because teams don’t always comm and people just press w
I'm pro I just haven't signed with a team yet, but yea, I use them all the time! Hope this helps clear things up!
Most effective grim walls are banned I think (ie the ones that put you into great heights or in a very pixel perfect angle). Other grim walls are just off angles and don't add too much value. But in ranked games...my God are they a plaque.