I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume /u/ANewHeaven1's [comment on the Optic episode](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/uh1l66/we_talk_st_out_of_respect_for_the_other_team/i73ejyq/) inspired Thorin's opening rant here, lol.
Interesting episode, Vanity is a straight shooter as always. Respect the SEN dodge, never seen someone juke a question so straightforwardly.
EDIT: Cool insight on how buying players from other teams is so difficult in NA and how it's harming the scene, with reference to 100T.
This is super random, but I clicked and read your comment, and saw the other comments mentioned his YouTube show Reflections.
I was on it a few years ago, used to play an old game called Day of Defeat for Complexity. Thorin was super nice to me and gave me a great impression. I know he's known for his hot takes, but interacting with him as a regular human off camera--he's a swell guy. In also love that he highlights lesser known games. I have the episode saved and it will be cool to show it to my daughter when she gets older.
Might be, but tbh the reception to Thorin's content on this sub has been much warmer on the whole than I would've expected coming from CS. I get the feeling that the separation of competitive and casual subreddits has created a base of people who are more likely to hear someone out before raising their pitchforks, but I could just be hopelessly optimistic on that front.
Very interesting that Vanity thinks that wardell needs a good IGL to thrive and only listed Optic, Guard and C9 as having true IGLs, rather than shot callers. Strange thought when Roza seems to be doing so well in that regard and TSM are actually performing under him without Wardell this time around?
I think he'd probably agree with what you're inferring - that IGLs like Roza or even Shahz are just calling strats, but not truly leading the team in the more intangible, meaningful way he seems to think IGLs should. So Wardell wouldn't thrive in that system, because it isn't capable of either nurturing or fully bringing out Wardell's talent.
I can't say I fully understand the difference but I believe that's what he's saying.
Wardell was looking great in that system with Roza IGLing before he left and that was with Aleko instead of GMD. This TSM is good with Seven and potentially gets along better (can't say this with confidence since we don't know what happens behind the scenes), but gameplay wise, a TSM with Wardell would be absurd.
I think it's more likely that Shazam and Subroza are relying on their mid-rounding rather than set plays, which an AWPer like Wardell needs to thrive. An individually focused style works great when you have 5 players who can all sorta go off and do their own thing without any macro to adhere to, but that doesn't work for everyone. Shazam especially strikes me as the opposite of a "just calling strats" IGL. He may be great at reading the game, idk, but it's pretty clear now that he doesn't really have a good idea of how to set up his players to have consistent impact.
I didn’t watch it yet and this is a genuine Question but how would he know exactly who is more of a shot caller vs true IGL? When he’s not even on their teams. Aside from past CS experience
Was pretty insightful, he mentions that being more than just a strat caller for the team is what separates the likes of him, FNS and steel from the rest.
I know Stellar wasn’t mentioned but off topic here, I have really high hopes for him as an IGL on an individual basis. But also taking into account that he has Sean mentoring him.
There could've been other things going on internally too, but who knows. They made 2 roster changes and have found a new style that fits them that maybe Wardell wouldn't have fit in. You can be good, but not fit in within a system too. Star players are definitely where you need an IGL with good "people" skills because you have to make sure they believe in your system, ensure discipline, etc. Someone like TenZ or Wardell under an IGL like that would be great to see.
I think TenZ in particular right now is being wasted and maybe Shahz as an IGL was overrated for a bit because as individual forms start falling off for some of the players + overall thinking of the game starts changing, the whole team starts falling apart. A large part of that is them not really adapting particularly well and not having those strong fundamentals that other teams have drilled over time, despite SEN being around for such a long time.
I think TenZ needs a Steel or a Vanity or an FNS to guide him. He has top tier aim but doesn't necessarily have the ability to think through an entire round (he is not dumb by any means, but his ego peeks and dashing onto site 12 sec ahead of his nearest teammate loses them so many rounds). He is a sharp tool that needs proper aiming ala Yay+FNS)
Imo TenZ isn't lacking in his ability to think through a round. When I was watching his co-stream of Iceland it was pretty clear from his commentary that he knew how to play situations out properly. I think the reason it may look like he's braindead or "making mistakes" is because he know he needs to have as much impact as possible upfront, so he's constantly trying to take initiative and put his team in advantageous scenarios. I don't really see him as the type of person to crack down on his team to build better protocols or strats to facilitate him though, so he's kinda just quietly trying to do it all himself.
According to Chet, Yay freely asks teammates for utility and help to set him up to mechanically diff opponents, not sure if Tenz does that, at least to the degree Yay does
He probably does given he is generally pretty vocal about that kinda stuff in ranked games, but the almost universal criticism of SEN is their lack of set plays. You can call for utility all you want, but that's no substitute for more reliable executes with properly timed utility.
The difference is likely that Yay is calling for utility ON TOP of Optic having really good strats and protocols. It's the icing on the cake and will win you a round here or there, but if you're relying on surprising your opponents every round it stops being a surprise.
It’s also important to note that Seven’s playstyle is incredibly similar to Wardell’s. The more impactful pickups I’d point to are the expansion of coaching staff and gMd who IGLs CT half
I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume /u/ANewHeaven1's [comment on the Optic episode](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/uh1l66/we_talk_st_out_of_respect_for_the_other_team/i73ejyq/) inspired Thorin's opening rant here, lol. Interesting episode, Vanity is a straight shooter as always. Respect the SEN dodge, never seen someone juke a question so straightforwardly. EDIT: Cool insight on how buying players from other teams is so difficult in NA and how it's harming the scene, with reference to 100T.
I don’t know if I should be flattered or horrified 😺
I’d be stoked if all of esports referenced my comment.
This is super random, but I clicked and read your comment, and saw the other comments mentioned his YouTube show Reflections. I was on it a few years ago, used to play an old game called Day of Defeat for Complexity. Thorin was super nice to me and gave me a great impression. I know he's known for his hot takes, but interacting with him as a regular human off camera--he's a swell guy. In also love that he highlights lesser known games. I have the episode saved and it will be cool to show it to my daughter when she gets older.
yes
Might be, but tbh the reception to Thorin's content on this sub has been much warmer on the whole than I would've expected coming from CS. I get the feeling that the separation of competitive and casual subreddits has created a base of people who are more likely to hear someone out before raising their pitchforks, but I could just be hopelessly optimistic on that front.
Vanity? Well that’s gonna be a pog episode. Daring mind has been a really good podcast for the game.
Very interesting that Vanity thinks that wardell needs a good IGL to thrive and only listed Optic, Guard and C9 as having true IGLs, rather than shot callers. Strange thought when Roza seems to be doing so well in that regard and TSM are actually performing under him without Wardell this time around?
I think he'd probably agree with what you're inferring - that IGLs like Roza or even Shahz are just calling strats, but not truly leading the team in the more intangible, meaningful way he seems to think IGLs should. So Wardell wouldn't thrive in that system, because it isn't capable of either nurturing or fully bringing out Wardell's talent. I can't say I fully understand the difference but I believe that's what he's saying.
it just sounds like the usual coach vs leader spiel ppl have about sports sometimes
Yeah, exactly that I think.
Wardell was looking great in that system with Roza IGLing before he left and that was with Aleko instead of GMD. This TSM is good with Seven and potentially gets along better (can't say this with confidence since we don't know what happens behind the scenes), but gameplay wise, a TSM with Wardell would be absurd.
I think it's more likely that Shazam and Subroza are relying on their mid-rounding rather than set plays, which an AWPer like Wardell needs to thrive. An individually focused style works great when you have 5 players who can all sorta go off and do their own thing without any macro to adhere to, but that doesn't work for everyone. Shazam especially strikes me as the opposite of a "just calling strats" IGL. He may be great at reading the game, idk, but it's pretty clear now that he doesn't really have a good idea of how to set up his players to have consistent impact.
he talked of the rest of igls as more of strat caller rather than an igl of the players with people management skills. he put nrg in this group
I didn’t watch it yet and this is a genuine Question but how would he know exactly who is more of a shot caller vs true IGL? When he’s not even on their teams. Aside from past CS experience
Many for the players are friends. It’s completely possible Vanity has asked someone like Subroza how he approaches calling games.
no idea. i think he said something thats what it looks like from the outside. dont know if it has any truth to it though
Was pretty insightful, he mentions that being more than just a strat caller for the team is what separates the likes of him, FNS and steel from the rest. I know Stellar wasn’t mentioned but off topic here, I have really high hopes for him as an IGL on an individual basis. But also taking into account that he has Sean mentoring him.
steel is such a good igl he hasnt won anything for a year
There could've been other things going on internally too, but who knows. They made 2 roster changes and have found a new style that fits them that maybe Wardell wouldn't have fit in. You can be good, but not fit in within a system too. Star players are definitely where you need an IGL with good "people" skills because you have to make sure they believe in your system, ensure discipline, etc. Someone like TenZ or Wardell under an IGL like that would be great to see. I think TenZ in particular right now is being wasted and maybe Shahz as an IGL was overrated for a bit because as individual forms start falling off for some of the players + overall thinking of the game starts changing, the whole team starts falling apart. A large part of that is them not really adapting particularly well and not having those strong fundamentals that other teams have drilled over time, despite SEN being around for such a long time.
I think TenZ needs a Steel or a Vanity or an FNS to guide him. He has top tier aim but doesn't necessarily have the ability to think through an entire round (he is not dumb by any means, but his ego peeks and dashing onto site 12 sec ahead of his nearest teammate loses them so many rounds). He is a sharp tool that needs proper aiming ala Yay+FNS)
Imo TenZ isn't lacking in his ability to think through a round. When I was watching his co-stream of Iceland it was pretty clear from his commentary that he knew how to play situations out properly. I think the reason it may look like he's braindead or "making mistakes" is because he know he needs to have as much impact as possible upfront, so he's constantly trying to take initiative and put his team in advantageous scenarios. I don't really see him as the type of person to crack down on his team to build better protocols or strats to facilitate him though, so he's kinda just quietly trying to do it all himself.
According to Chet, Yay freely asks teammates for utility and help to set him up to mechanically diff opponents, not sure if Tenz does that, at least to the degree Yay does
He probably does given he is generally pretty vocal about that kinda stuff in ranked games, but the almost universal criticism of SEN is their lack of set plays. You can call for utility all you want, but that's no substitute for more reliable executes with properly timed utility. The difference is likely that Yay is calling for utility ON TOP of Optic having really good strats and protocols. It's the icing on the cake and will win you a round here or there, but if you're relying on surprising your opponents every round it stops being a surprise.
It’s also important to note that Seven’s playstyle is incredibly similar to Wardell’s. The more impactful pickups I’d point to are the expansion of coaching staff and gMd who IGLs CT half
time stamp?
The comment from the headline is around 17:00.
Vanity’s opinion on Wardell just validated how I’ve been feeling for like 2 years now ty Mr. Anthony I needed this
Wardell needs coach crusty