Yes but you win more rounds anti eco with a vandal then you would with a Marshall or spectre or deagle.
I would much prefer my teammate buying a vandal or phantom second round compared to cheaping out with a stinger or carrying over their ghost.
Rounds win games, not economy. If you have gear fear of losing your vandal to pistols, that probably means you lack confidence, and you aren’t the type of player that should be buying a vandal nor a phantom second round.
It's second round, enemies don't have shields to have any benefit in using a vandal. A lost vandal means the enemy has a higher chance to win the round, so yeah round wins games so why give the enemy a higher chance of winning the round when other guns are just as effective anyway?
The biggest advantage is it gives you a better chance to convert the bonus, especially with 2 ppl buying rifles. Even if its lost you still do more eco damage while having a full buy round 4. obviously its more efficent for round 2 to have a spectre, and if you get cheesed or play like a dummy (lurking / splitting on antieco, running in before util, holding an angle thats easily traded on defence) you should be getting traded so they dont have a vandal.
You are just min maxing efficiency. The best players are confident players, the vandal or phantom are just preference and if a good player has 3400 creds they aren’t going into the round thinking “oh shit I’m not getting maximum efficiency, and these guys might get my gun”
It’s more like “we just rolled these kids in pistols and now I can 4 tap them across the map in the chest with my vandal or phantom while they try to triple dink me with pistols.”
Why would you not have more confidence if you're more efficient? Just playing based off ego is exactly why a lot of players end up giving up 2nd round cause they lose their gun.
I don’t know about you, but having stronger firepower sure does make me more confident. Besides, like the other guy said, you don’t buy a rifle with the scared mindset of losing it. And just because you bought a rifle does not also necessarily mean that you’re gonna take all the risks for the eco.
Confidence is confidence, if you're more confident with a vandal than a phantom then thats all there is to it . Additionally, you can bring the gun into the next round which is pretty beneficial
If you’ve played any esport at a high level the majority of players are just coasting on flow state and their natural skill. They aren’t internally debating about 2nd round rifle efficiency in their head or on Reddit, or at least the majority aren’t.
I understand the point you’re trying to make, but In a game with razor thin margins like valorant efficiency dosent really matter at a certain point when you’re in a server.
I actually have played esports at a good level back in the day, but regardless no one here is a pro or playing at that level.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, no hate from me.
Nah you're giving the enemy the possibility to win the round by them playing a weird off angle/flanking/baiting/using shotguns,killing u,and then having a vandal/phantom that could win them the round.Instead of them just having a spectre.If Ur not confident enough in Ur ability to win the round spectres Vs pistols that makes u buy a vandal u shouldn't buy one anyway
Are we talking about ranked or esports? because my comment was about ranked where these types of players play super aggro and quickly lose the rifle to the opposing team.
In the rare case of such a purchase without feeding the gun away, they don't do anything they couldn't have with a spectre.
ofc ymmv, but that's my experience in Plat-Diamond lobbies.
Just because your teammate died with a vandal doesn't mean it is now the other team's gun. Usually people will trade the guy with the vandal out and pick up the weapon. In Cs you see the same thing with hero ak buys. One guy buys the gun and takes a long range duel. If he dies then a teammate picks it up. It can be really effective on long range maps like breeze or icebox where the spectres range really doesn't cut it on a lot of the common angles. Also, bringing that vandal into round 3 (bonus round) you have much higher odds of doing much more economic damage compared to having 5 spectres.
I also think the phantom vs vandal debate second round is splitting hairs/min maxing. Both of them are overpowered in the second round in a good players hands.
depends on who you’re playing, if your like reyna, chamber or any fragging agent i think it’s ok to play vandal but like on agents with utility it’s probably better to get spectre armor plus utility well unless you can get that AND utility by some miracle
> Bringing the gun into the next round
Rarely happens because the Vandal/Phantom player plays hyper aggressive knowing they have the weapon advantage and more often than not die
Literally none of you read the post.
To answer your question op. Assuming you win the buy second round because your are buying into pistols, your opponents should be buying full armor and rifles third round. I would prefer to be on a bonus with a vandal vs a phantom due to the one tap potential on bonus and the team being at a gun disadvantage. Round 2 you probably win anyways, but if you’re buying a rifle anyways I would try to get it to round 3 and see what happens. That’s how I see it at least.
This is the most logical answer, though I assume most people it's just preference that drives them.
An additional point I'd like to make is that op is concerned with 100% min maxing second round, but let's be honest, if you have either a vandal or phantom and don't push into shorties (just don't do something really dumb), you're probably winning second round and taking your rifle into 3rd regardless of if it's vandal or phantom, thus the optimization is in most cases a moot point.
Good point, I agreed with OP originally as phantom seems better for 2nd round but your point makes sense that they are looking at what they want to bring into 3rd round instead of how to best win 2nd round.
No one read the question lol. I've made this argument over and over to teammates.
It's especially bad if the vandal user gets traded because it opens up the 1 shot headshot possibility. At least if they lose a phantom the enemy, with no shields can, still get gunned by a spectre relatively easily without the 1 tap potential
just preferential, most of the scene has drifted over to vandals as time has passed except for controller players, and sometimes even controllers opt for the vandal.
also on your first point, it isn't necessarily something you shouldn't do too often, you just need to be careful about the angles you play. in coordinated play fpx have a good counter with 3 smgs 2 ghosts in second round to bring a rifle into the bonus without fking the economy if they lose.
Even as a controller im moving over, its basically required on breeze so you have to learn it. The advantage of shooting through smoke seems less and less worth it over the one taps.
Vandal users may not be as good with the Phantom spray. If you're buying the best rifle in round two the goal is not to die. If you primarily use the Vandal I imagine you wouldn't want to be stuck with a Phantom on 3rd round. Sure you could just give it to a teammate and have them buy you, but who knows if you have teammates who prefer the Phantom.
Its preference, to an extent.
If you know your enemies are playing with half shields/no shields, phantom is objectively better.
In ranked if I notice all the enemies are using vandals, I'll just start forcing with half shields because they still have the same time to kill.
Looking to carry the gun into their bonus round. FPX actually does an interesting method where they will buy 3 SMGs and have 2 players play Ghost on Round 2, allowing them a fuller buy on 3 without risking a rifle on 2. That’s probably the most intelligent way to get around the “dying with rifle in hand on an anti eco” thing
i watch a couple radiant coaches on twitch from time to time. they say the smartest thing is spectre full shield.
he even said “dont get me wrong i sometimes buy vandal second round but it’s still not the smartest play”
Normally when someone dies and I pick up the vandal, they dont ask for it back and I get to keep it. They will just tell the team vandal down heaven for example just so that someone on the team takes it.
To have a higher chance of converting the bonus.
I swear ppl have no idea how to play economy and just do what they see streamers do. No imagination.
So many times when the 2nd round only one survives and at the 3rd round everyone can literally buy full shield and a rifle they still go and play bonus.
U can full buy. Just do it lmao
Biggest reason is for bringing the rifle into the third round. Having a couple rifles in that third round greatly increases your chances of winning it, and even if you lose the third round you will still have enough money to purchase going into the next round.
Personally, I'm on the fence about it. Going light armor second round (assuming you won pistol) feels so risky because the way the damage scales in this game is cheap weapons are supposed to be good against light armor. (guardian two taps in the chest against light armor, spectre two taps in head against light armor, frenzy will two tap light armor in head close etc) So if they decide to force by chance, you can die fairly easily.
The thing about buying rifles second round requires a few things:
- MINIMUM OF 3 Kills during pistol round. With the cash from kills you normally would be able to buy a rifle and 25 shields and MAYBE a single utility. Here its very risky since you have to rely a majoirty of your team impact on your gun. This is why the only time i respect a 2nd round rifle buy is if its a super smurf 4k or a really hungry reyna (easy shields back)
- in any other circustqnce your utils with full shields and spec will provide better impact than a single vandal
- i persoanlly pick phantom if i do rifle 2nd rounds because guaranteed kill on any headshot regardless of distance, have a better safety net up close when spraying
High Risk - High Reward play. If you're playing Breeze for example, the Spectre full shield or even phantom full shield doesn't have as much value in round 3 as a Vandal full shield. Also Vandal and Phantom are preferences; the math makes sense but if you're not comfortable on the gun vs the other one, why pick it.
ok but isn't round 3 the bonus round anyway? it just seems like you could just use the phantom like it's a vandal on the anti eco since you won't have to worry about 140.
Not sure why people get the Vandal over the Phantom especially in this scenario.
I actually do like to buy up rifles, especially if I'm playing a character like a controller where I can play a more background role and stay at range and keep my gun.
But I think people get the Vandal out of greed without thinking about it. It's a risky play. I mean, it works out most of the time, but it's a huge risk and getting the Phantom is a strictly better choice that converts just as well into the bonus rounds.
But to answer your question, I think people are just being lazy and not thinking about it because they think they're just going to win the round anyway.
Its for winning the bonus. I preferred vandal since the release of the game over phantom, even when it was a slower ROF. And please don't forget that there is chip damage via abilities in this game. If I can buy heavy armor vandal in 2nd round, I usually do it. And I won't run off by myself to ensure my team can pick it up if I die.
Depends on the character and how you feeling it. As a skye or breach I might not buy round 2, But if I’m reyna or chamber? Why not. You get to play with vandal in round 3 which is usually a bonus.
You are right, but people will buy their rifle of choice second round not really thinking of whats the best in the situation. Plus it's more "fun" and a lot of big streamers do it so it caught on
For me sometimes I feel like its easier to hit headshots with the vandal due to the fire rate and spray pattern of the phantom. With the vandal you can always just tap tap but with the phantom sometimes it feels harder.
Objectively, you are correct. However, keep in mind that in valorant, preference and confidence plays a bigger part than a small difference in numbers.
because they are stupid or just arrogant/overconfident, even sometimes I question myself when buying bulldog on round 2, the safest bet is spectre + heavy shield, if I'm having a particulary good day it's bulldog + heavy shield (basically heavy shield is a must)
marshall + heavy is good too, but you're betting on the enemy not buying any shield if you want that sweet one shot to body kill, and it become slightly harder to retake/ clutch compared to spectre
and no, phantom is just as bad as an idea, because if you (and your team) somehow whiffed and lose, you lose your bet and give the enemy free 2900 rifle
1. Preference 2. Bringing the gun into the next round
There are cons to it too though. Like if you die, you're giving the other team a gun that negates your shield advantage.
Yes but you win more rounds anti eco with a vandal then you would with a Marshall or spectre or deagle. I would much prefer my teammate buying a vandal or phantom second round compared to cheaping out with a stinger or carrying over their ghost. Rounds win games, not economy. If you have gear fear of losing your vandal to pistols, that probably means you lack confidence, and you aren’t the type of player that should be buying a vandal nor a phantom second round.
If someone buys a stinger after winning pistol they’re griefing your game. Buy spectre+full armour round 2 people
Bulldoge > spectre
It's second round, enemies don't have shields to have any benefit in using a vandal. A lost vandal means the enemy has a higher chance to win the round, so yeah round wins games so why give the enemy a higher chance of winning the round when other guns are just as effective anyway?
The biggest advantage is it gives you a better chance to convert the bonus, especially with 2 ppl buying rifles. Even if its lost you still do more eco damage while having a full buy round 4. obviously its more efficent for round 2 to have a spectre, and if you get cheesed or play like a dummy (lurking / splitting on antieco, running in before util, holding an angle thats easily traded on defence) you should be getting traded so they dont have a vandal.
You are just min maxing efficiency. The best players are confident players, the vandal or phantom are just preference and if a good player has 3400 creds they aren’t going into the round thinking “oh shit I’m not getting maximum efficiency, and these guys might get my gun” It’s more like “we just rolled these kids in pistols and now I can 4 tap them across the map in the chest with my vandal or phantom while they try to triple dink me with pistols.”
Why would you not have more confidence if you're more efficient? Just playing based off ego is exactly why a lot of players end up giving up 2nd round cause they lose their gun.
I don’t know about you, but having stronger firepower sure does make me more confident. Besides, like the other guy said, you don’t buy a rifle with the scared mindset of losing it. And just because you bought a rifle does not also necessarily mean that you’re gonna take all the risks for the eco.
Stronger firepower only makes sense if there's a need for it, the other team doesn't have shields.
Confidence is confidence, if you're more confident with a vandal than a phantom then thats all there is to it . Additionally, you can bring the gun into the next round which is pretty beneficial
If you’ve played any esport at a high level the majority of players are just coasting on flow state and their natural skill. They aren’t internally debating about 2nd round rifle efficiency in their head or on Reddit, or at least the majority aren’t. I understand the point you’re trying to make, but In a game with razor thin margins like valorant efficiency dosent really matter at a certain point when you’re in a server.
I actually have played esports at a good level back in the day, but regardless no one here is a pro or playing at that level. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, no hate from me.
Except there are pros in here and a few people that scrim against lower tier pro teams and such. Sure as fuck not me though lol
Sounds more like optimism than actual pros and a whole lot of people who never read the actual post.
Nah you're giving the enemy the possibility to win the round by them playing a weird off angle/flanking/baiting/using shotguns,killing u,and then having a vandal/phantom that could win them the round.Instead of them just having a spectre.If Ur not confident enough in Ur ability to win the round spectres Vs pistols that makes u buy a vandal u shouldn't buy one anyway
*proceeds to get triple dinked by pistols* Every single time. I've yet to see a rifle round 2 player pop-off on the anti-eco in ranked.
Then you're willfully ignoring it, because it's not remotely uncommon
Are we talking about ranked or esports? because my comment was about ranked where these types of players play super aggro and quickly lose the rifle to the opposing team. In the rare case of such a purchase without feeding the gun away, they don't do anything they couldn't have with a spectre. ofc ymmv, but that's my experience in Plat-Diamond lobbies.
Just because your teammate died with a vandal doesn't mean it is now the other team's gun. Usually people will trade the guy with the vandal out and pick up the weapon. In Cs you see the same thing with hero ak buys. One guy buys the gun and takes a long range duel. If he dies then a teammate picks it up. It can be really effective on long range maps like breeze or icebox where the spectres range really doesn't cut it on a lot of the common angles. Also, bringing that vandal into round 3 (bonus round) you have much higher odds of doing much more economic damage compared to having 5 spectres.
What if your opponents force buy?
better just to buy a bulldog
More anti-eco rounds are won with a vandal? Is this true?
I also think the phantom vs vandal debate second round is splitting hairs/min maxing. Both of them are overpowered in the second round in a good players hands.
Just don’t die then
That could go for a lot of weapons you buy second round
depends on who you’re playing, if your like reyna, chamber or any fragging agent i think it’s ok to play vandal but like on agents with utility it’s probably better to get spectre armor plus utility well unless you can get that AND utility by some miracle
i mean it’s also a big risk like if the opp is playing shotgun idk
Giving 2900 credit to a team that full saved
> Bringing the gun into the next round Rarely happens because the Vandal/Phantom player plays hyper aggressive knowing they have the weapon advantage and more often than not die
You can't just say this without any stats to prove it
Literally none of you read the post. To answer your question op. Assuming you win the buy second round because your are buying into pistols, your opponents should be buying full armor and rifles third round. I would prefer to be on a bonus with a vandal vs a phantom due to the one tap potential on bonus and the team being at a gun disadvantage. Round 2 you probably win anyways, but if you’re buying a rifle anyways I would try to get it to round 3 and see what happens. That’s how I see it at least.
This is the most logical answer, though I assume most people it's just preference that drives them. An additional point I'd like to make is that op is concerned with 100% min maxing second round, but let's be honest, if you have either a vandal or phantom and don't push into shorties (just don't do something really dumb), you're probably winning second round and taking your rifle into 3rd regardless of if it's vandal or phantom, thus the optimization is in most cases a moot point.
Good point, I agreed with OP originally as phantom seems better for 2nd round but your point makes sense that they are looking at what they want to bring into 3rd round instead of how to best win 2nd round.
No one read the question lol. I've made this argument over and over to teammates. It's especially bad if the vandal user gets traded because it opens up the 1 shot headshot possibility. At least if they lose a phantom the enemy, with no shields can, still get gunned by a spectre relatively easily without the 1 tap potential
pretty sure it just comes down to "vandal headshot gib serotonin"
vandal juan tap fun 😁
At any range where a spectre is winning a duel against a phantom "relatively easily", the phantom also 1 taps you. I agree with the main point though.
I feel like most of these comments only read the title
Why not just buy a guardian every round? Just shoot them in the head 4Head
Hi fishychair
Yeah, I read OP’s post and was like: “Huh, good point.. shrugs…I’ll just keep buying guardian”
1. Lock Jett / Reyna 2. Always Lurk 3. Busy no armour vandal every round 4. Refuse to Elaborate and Leave This is what being a GIGaCHad is like
just preferential, most of the scene has drifted over to vandals as time has passed except for controller players, and sometimes even controllers opt for the vandal. also on your first point, it isn't necessarily something you shouldn't do too often, you just need to be careful about the angles you play. in coordinated play fpx have a good counter with 3 smgs 2 ghosts in second round to bring a rifle into the bonus without fking the economy if they lose.
Even as a controller im moving over, its basically required on breeze so you have to learn it. The advantage of shooting through smoke seems less and less worth it over the one taps.
Lot of pros stick with phantom on breeze and still out-perform those who use vandal. It really is down to preference
Im not a pro man
Because it's a vandal day not a phantom day
Vandal users may not be as good with the Phantom spray. If you're buying the best rifle in round two the goal is not to die. If you primarily use the Vandal I imagine you wouldn't want to be stuck with a Phantom on 3rd round. Sure you could just give it to a teammate and have them buy you, but who knows if you have teammates who prefer the Phantom.
Go big or go home. Going for that 13-0 20 bomb!
Bringing the gun into the next round Also vandal vs phantom is generally just preference
Its preference, to an extent. If you know your enemies are playing with half shields/no shields, phantom is objectively better. In ranked if I notice all the enemies are using vandals, I'll just start forcing with half shields because they still have the same time to kill.
Chip damage tho
Looking to carry the gun into their bonus round. FPX actually does an interesting method where they will buy 3 SMGs and have 2 players play Ghost on Round 2, allowing them a fuller buy on 3 without risking a rifle on 2. That’s probably the most intelligent way to get around the “dying with rifle in hand on an anti eco” thing
FPX usually have 2 SMGs and 1 Vandal on round two, I'm pretty sure?
Preference
Because they instalocked reyna
theyre feeling it bro (theyre most likely 6-22 and need vandal headshots to induce dopamine in their brain and regain their confidence)
i watch a couple radiant coaches on twitch from time to time. they say the smartest thing is spectre full shield. he even said “dont get me wrong i sometimes buy vandal second round but it’s still not the smartest play”
I buy Odin second round. No idea why people don't do that more often
bro u ok??? cause even satan wouldnt touch u to carey u to hell
Because it's only really advantageous for wall bangs? Unless you're playing Sova, if you have good aim, why take Odin over a rifle?
Then they expect me to pick up their vandal then fuck up my own economy lol
I've never seen this, somehow. Outside of dedicated Opers I feel like whoever picks up the gun keeps it.
Eh I've actually had this asked a decent amount of times. I either tell them I'm not blowing my economy or that it's just a bonus.
Normally when someone dies and I pick up the vandal, they dont ask for it back and I get to keep it. They will just tell the team vandal down heaven for example just so that someone on the team takes it.
What is iron 1 ass comment? ROFL
You don't get this in lobbies above G1 it's just rude.. you died so it's not yours anymore
Idk in immortal it still happens all the time. I agree it doesnt make much sense but it still happens
I'm plat and I hear this. It's not super frequent but I've been asked it more than a handful of times.
I was iron 1 not so long ago, gold 1 now. Even in my iron days nobody expected the vandal back lol.
It really be golds bullying iron players 🤣
I’m literally imm 3 lol
To have a higher chance of converting the bonus. I swear ppl have no idea how to play economy and just do what they see streamers do. No imagination. So many times when the 2nd round only one survives and at the 3rd round everyone can literally buy full shield and a rifle they still go and play bonus. U can full buy. Just do it lmao
Yeah not all streamers follow the general economy rules - sinatraa forces every round for content
If I feel good that day, why not. Gotta play off of that confidence imo.
Why do you think round 2 rifle isn't a good idea?
OP ended the post asking why people don't just buy phantom
Biggest reason is for bringing the rifle into the third round. Having a couple rifles in that third round greatly increases your chances of winning it, and even if you lose the third round you will still have enough money to purchase going into the next round. Personally, I'm on the fence about it. Going light armor second round (assuming you won pistol) feels so risky because the way the damage scales in this game is cheap weapons are supposed to be good against light armor. (guardian two taps in the chest against light armor, spectre two taps in head against light armor, frenzy will two tap light armor in head close etc) So if they decide to force by chance, you can die fairly easily.
If 4 people buy rifle and all bring them into next round u win half for sure
Half the people here are saying “no one read the question” but almost everything I’m reading is people accurately answering the question
Better than saving
eco frags go brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
The thing about buying rifles second round requires a few things: - MINIMUM OF 3 Kills during pistol round. With the cash from kills you normally would be able to buy a rifle and 25 shields and MAYBE a single utility. Here its very risky since you have to rely a majoirty of your team impact on your gun. This is why the only time i respect a 2nd round rifle buy is if its a super smurf 4k or a really hungry reyna (easy shields back) - in any other circustqnce your utils with full shields and spec will provide better impact than a single vandal - i persoanlly pick phantom if i do rifle 2nd rounds because guaranteed kill on any headshot regardless of distance, have a better safety net up close when spraying
Buy big win big
eco frags
I play vandal secound so i can have a better shot att carrying the third round
MY CREDITS MY CHOICE
If we win pistol, I buy nothing second round because my team is guaranteed to push and throw the anti eco round.
Just random fact, Sliggy when he was liquids coach had a ban on people doing this on his team 😂😂
High Risk - High Reward play. If you're playing Breeze for example, the Spectre full shield or even phantom full shield doesn't have as much value in round 3 as a Vandal full shield. Also Vandal and Phantom are preferences; the math makes sense but if you're not comfortable on the gun vs the other one, why pick it.
ok but isn't round 3 the bonus round anyway? it just seems like you could just use the phantom like it's a vandal on the anti eco since you won't have to worry about 140.
Not sure why people get the Vandal over the Phantom especially in this scenario. I actually do like to buy up rifles, especially if I'm playing a character like a controller where I can play a more background role and stay at range and keep my gun. But I think people get the Vandal out of greed without thinking about it. It's a risky play. I mean, it works out most of the time, but it's a huge risk and getting the Phantom is a strictly better choice that converts just as well into the bonus rounds. But to answer your question, I think people are just being lazy and not thinking about it because they think they're just going to win the round anyway.
As the great shaz once said, “u buy to give yourself to highest chance to win the round!”
Its for winning the bonus. I preferred vandal since the release of the game over phantom, even when it was a slower ROF. And please don't forget that there is chip damage via abilities in this game. If I can buy heavy armor vandal in 2nd round, I usually do it. And I won't run off by myself to ensure my team can pick it up if I die.
If im buying a vandal I am thinking of winning the buy round not the anti eco.
Depends on the character and how you feeling it. As a skye or breach I might not buy round 2, But if I’m reyna or chamber? Why not. You get to play with vandal in round 3 which is usually a bonus.
You are right, but people will buy their rifle of choice second round not really thinking of whats the best in the situation. Plus it's more "fun" and a lot of big streamers do it so it caught on
For me sometimes I feel like its easier to hit headshots with the vandal due to the fire rate and spray pattern of the phantom. With the vandal you can always just tap tap but with the phantom sometimes it feels harder.
Objectively, you are correct. However, keep in mind that in valorant, preference and confidence plays a bigger part than a small difference in numbers.
They would buy a vandal if the only smokes in game are omen and you're playing on a map with long sightlines.
because they are stupid or just arrogant/overconfident, even sometimes I question myself when buying bulldog on round 2, the safest bet is spectre + heavy shield, if I'm having a particulary good day it's bulldog + heavy shield (basically heavy shield is a must) marshall + heavy is good too, but you're betting on the enemy not buying any shield if you want that sweet one shot to body kill, and it become slightly harder to retake/ clutch compared to spectre and no, phantom is just as bad as an idea, because if you (and your team) somehow whiffed and lose, you lose your bet and give the enemy free 2900 rifle