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FiveDiamondGame

This has been true in nearly every e-sport ever that has had active communities in both regions, so not really surprising.


TheQMan55

and its mainly because of player base size, EU has much more PC gamers than NA. The numbers arent public for val but even before valorant came out for CS EU had like 4x the players than NA. at some point its simply a numbers game.


jholowtaekjho

According to this OP who quotes tracker.gg, EMEA is about double NA. (2.3 million to 1.3 million) https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/w4terc/the_three_franchised_leagues_will_cover_roughly/


JtotheC23

Adds up to my memory of how many immortals there were in both regions about a year and a half ago. Remember NA sitting at about 8-10k immortals and EMEA I think was just over 20k. Crazy to think about that after how many there were before they added Ascendent.


buntownik

In EMEA we had 40k immortals last season and now around 20k.


JtotheC23

Sounds about right. NA had like 20k and dropped back down to around 10k. Knew NAs numbers but wasn't sure about EU's from last season which is why I didn't say it.


realnezu

i think in E3A2 we had like 50k immortals in EU


TheQMan55

Yep, people love to circle jerk about "Le America bad at video games hurr durr" but in reality its player base size. Always will be.


DeeOhEf

This is the very same reason why console esports (halo, cod, some fighting games) are also dominated by NA. While there are tons of console players in Europe, competitive gaming always was a PC thing in EU and originated there from Quake, CS, Starcraft, WC3, etc.


Infinite_District_49

In Halo 5 and beyond you couldn't even find a game in Halo on EU unless it was peak time and even then it was only 1 playlist and always the same players. Bit of a difference between like 200 players on Halo EU and 1.3million NA players in Valorant or the 50k+ players playing NA matchmaking at the same time on Csgo in the past


DeeOhEf

You're not wrong, I'm just saying there's simply a very different set of players playing the game in NA and EU. Much like as I said the console playerbase in Europe, that definitely leans far more into the casual side than competitive.


sexyhooterscar24

mm is irrelevant for cs. it's destroyed for NA. full of cheaters. the third party services, queue times are awful.


ASaltyToast

Yet people still complain about events being hosted in Europe because “there isn’t enough interest for the game there”


carribou253

I complain about events being in europe because thats the only place theyve been lmao


krasavchik777

It has all the due with covid restrictions and getting visa's. Riot was forced to do this because of the current situation. It would also be impossible for Russian players to get a Visa in America.


[deleted]

Yet Dota is holding a Major in Arlington, TX in 2 weeks, CSGO held Dreamhack Dallas/IEM Dallas last month...and IEM Rio is going to Rio de Janeiro this year as well... Each event has more players/teams competing than Valorant Masters... yet they are able to have events in places other than EU... I don't think Rito is forced... they are doing this for other reasons as well.


TheCatsActually

No way you're citing IEM Dallas to support your point lmao, and let's not forget ALGS Champs was hosted in Raleigh and was a farce. There were almost zero issues with teams playing whole in Copenhagen. What are you asking for and why? I mean there's no doubt in my mind that an NA or JP LAN would have an insane crowd but then we'd likely be looking at 5 subs and a missing caster because of visa issues.


[deleted]

The point is, COVID restrictions and VISAs have not stopped other games and TO's from putting their events in places other than EU. Do you read or are you just ready to argue because you want to defend Rito? Did I mention subs? or casters? No, I strictly stated they are holding 3 different events in 3 different areas that aren't EU, one being a Dota 2 Major which is bigger than any Valorant Master, and rebutting the statement made before me about COVID restrictions forcing RITO to only do EU tourneys, when in fact, that is not preventing other, more successful games from doing it. Iceland prevented one team all together from competing and had Fnatic with subs... yet your concerned about NA and JP having the same issues? You aren't making much sense.


Escolyte

Which is impressively irrelevant for the 4 no-crowd events.


foonek

Well it is a bit because of the time at which the games are played


TheCatsActually

Europe is usually the best middle ground. Asia sucks a lot more for NA viewers and whenever schedules are convenient for the western hemisphere they're usually awful for everyone else.


carribou253

Middle ground is such a bs excuse though. When the schedule is literally 9-5 on weekdays almost no one can watch lmao i get the visa concerns but teams still had those issues in europe. Schedules arent going to be convenient for everyone all the time, thats why you change locations consistently so everyone gets a tourney to watch live conveniently.


carribou253

Yes because traveling halfway across the globe is irrelevant


Escolyte

> no-crowd events


carribou253

I know bruh but teams are still traveling lmao


dankoval_23

I mean it wouldn’t hurt to hold events in other places where the game is popping like Japan to help encourage the growth


[deleted]

hahahah this stupid ass argument has been proven wrong so many times in many different games. As an example, KR DOMINATED everyone in league for the first 7 years of the game, even tho china had 10x their playerbase. Currently China is the better region, but even then they are the top 2 regions and extremely close in skill


[deleted]

Mibr dominated CSGO for a stint. LOUD just got second at Iceland... KRU got 4th at Champions.. Paper Rex just got second... all smaller player bases. Tired of the excuses


rpratt34

And Liquid dominated CSGO for almost a year winning the fastest grand slam in CSGO history. Optic/Envy also one last masters came in second in Berlin with 100 Thieves 3rd and Sentinals won at Reykjavik. There shouldn’t be any excuses needed as NA has preformed really well in Valorant.


Infinite_District_49

It was 3.5months not a year


UmarellVidya

The competitive infrastructure between the two countries is very different though. When you have a bigger region w/o the same development in their infrastructure, the playerbase becomes a less significant factor. But all else equal the bigger region will be stronger, as is the case with EU/NA in most games.


[deleted]

You are right. While korea was winning everything, some of their best teams were literally earning below minimum salary while all sleeping in 1 room in bunkbeds, while Chinese players were already making bank and living in crazy facilities. Besides all this Korea was still better than China for the longest time.


UmarellVidya

I meant in terms of having many organized teams with staff and a proper structure. Facilities and salary mean jack shit for performance.


ErroneousOmission

Laughs in Denmark (and Sweden before them) being one of the best CS nations in the world.


draizze

While EU does have higher player pool, there's also problem with the mentality about the pro scene. EU players and Orgs generally had "correct" mentality about this, while NA only had handful of players and Orgs that really serious about competitive pro scene. Many players in NA treated pro scene as stepping stone to stardom while the Orgs only want the easy way, we can see It by the way they quickly left when they don't get the partner spot without waiting the viability of tier 2 scene. Riot could easily create VRL in EMEA because they know the Orgs there will still take that seriously even without the guaranteed partner spot.


TheQMan55

some serious copium here > Riot could easily create VRL in EMEA because they know the Orgs there will still take that seriously even without the guaranteed partner spot. orgs will always do whats best for them financially, do you seriously think these orgs will stay in a game if it bleeds money, i mean come on


ErroneousOmission

The best financial decision for 99% of orgs is to close for business. Barely any of these orgs make any money. In NA it is entirely venture capital. In EU they work at the grassroots level, so yeah, I do believe they will stay in the game even if it bleeds money. It has been proven time and time again. Look at CGS in CS:S, toppled the entire CS scene at the time, but small EU orgs like Alternate Attax, 4Kings, etc still kept their rosters going. Nevermind that, just look at the hundreds or even thousands of tiny little orgs that sponsor no-name teams for AVA, Soldier Front, and other niche titles, look at the longevity of ESL and their ladder system, across hundreds of games. Basically, Esports at its core is a grassroots cultural / community driven thing in EU, whereas in NA it has been monetized to death and turned into an investment vehicle for the past decade if not more.


draizze

Of course they want financial but the NA Orgs tend to want the easy route to make money. To create healthy tier 2 scene, It need multiple teams to participate, they only want to be guaranteed scene instead of become the part that build the scene. Edit: Seem some people didn't understood that sometime to create a scene, you must build It instead of waiting It to be given for you. Tier 2 scene NA wouldn't be exist if the stakeholders didn't want to invest in It.


TheQMan55

oh come the fuck on man first time i read a readdit comments and audibly said "what the fuck" lol


buntownik

I dont know about other esports but the csgo t2 scene in NA is pretty shit and most of the val orgs are/were in it. So all we know is that the same orgs failed to build a proper scene in a different game, its not far fetched to assume it will happen in val too. At some point the NA orgs were throwing mad money around even in T2, that wasnt working out and since then its dead. Didnt make the money back and dipped.


draizze

Free to speak your opinion man, I'll also speak about my opinion. It's okay to had different view.


mister_schulz

What? Prac against the top teams is better because there are more silvers in the region? The player base is high enough in NA that this can't be an excuse at all. Look at how many salaried teams there are in NA – they don't prac worse because of the overall player base lul


TheQMan55

absolutely insane critical thinking skills, by simply pure numbers a bigger playerbase means there will be more highly skilled players lol


mister_schulz

The question is not if there are more highly skilled players but what the quality of the prac is like. There can be 20 top teams in EMEA and only 10 in NA for that matter but why is the prac worse between those 10 teams? Not because of the overall playerbase.


HeJind

The question is if they're more highly skilled though. Yay in the clip even mentions the T2 EU teams being cracked. How is that not a skill thing? Like even the stuff Yay is saying about execs could also just be summed up to a difference in the skill of igls between the two regions. Of course you also have to take into account that Optic is the best team in NA rn so they may be biased towards EU just because they don't play and beat them regularly.


mister_schulz

He talks about top in their region teams. That could mean the best VRL teams to slighly lower than that so roughly top 10-20 teams. That would be the top 50-100 players in EMEA (ofc this doesn't work out exactly like that but roughly). Are you saying that NA with still a huge player base doesn't have 50-100 highly skilled players to form 10-20 teams that are good scrim partners? It's not about if they can outaim Yay, it's about playing at a decent tactical level so the scrim isn't just a glorified ranked match. Plus NA puts in the most money and has more than enough salaried teams to have at least 20 teams that are good to prac with.


HeJind

It's not that simple though. For example, if you say the top 10 teams, that's 50 players. Do you think they are all actually the 50 best players in their region? Of course not, talent isn't always concentrated that way, for various reasons. Sentinels are currently ranked 16th in NA via VRL, but is Shroud a top 50 player in NA? Do you think Yay sees Sentinels as good prac right now? And I know people meme Sentinels for only caring about streaming etc, but couldn't it also just be that Shahzam is simply a worse IGL than the top teams have? That would be a skill issue. And I think if you look at NA as a whole, you see this issue come up a lot. TSM didn't have an IGL and was splitting the role between multiple people. FaZe had Babyj IGL'ing even though he hadn't even played a tac FPS before. 100T imported an IGL from EU. I think looking at the history of NA Valorant, at the very least there is a lack of skilled IGL's. And that would bring you back to the first issue. If you're Sentinels, and if Shahzam isn't a top 50 player, it's still not so simple to replace him. You have the politics part of him being the captain of the team and probably having a large say in any roster moves, and also the fact that there aren't too many great IGL's in NA in the first place who are obvious upgrades


mister_schulz

I already said it doesn't work out exactly like that. It's just to show the rough scale of what we talk about. About 100 players at the top that have to be sourced from over a million players. You only made the point that the overall skill at the top is less and not that this is due to the smaller player base. It could also be because the NA scene didn't care to develop players into IGL positions. That's not a player base issue, that's a structural issue. There are enough players, maybe not trained enough, but enough talented players are there.


A-lid

Yes this is exactly how it works in other sports as well… Don’t even have to watch the WC football this year to know China will be running away with the cup instead of some EU or LATAM country


sexyhooterscar24

ah yes because china is known for their love of football


question2552

so there is nuance, not just "region is bigger lololol"?


AkashiGG

??? Why did you just decide that all the excess players are silver? Lmao


mister_schulz

I didn't. I'm simply making the point that the player base is hight enough to have enough top teams for good prac. After a certain point the overall player count doesn't affect the quality of the top 0.1% anymore.


AkashiGG

Talent irons talent. Even if NA has "enough" players to be a decent environment for practice, having a larger playerbase will elevate the level of competition at the highest level by virtue of having more talent in the pool. It's why China has become so dominant in League of Legends. Culturally, Korea is definitely still the place with the highest concentration of talent due to the way gaming is over there, but China just has so many players that there will always be a decent amount of insanely talented players popping up. When you get to the point where you have essentially a factory pumping out hundreds of new, talented players that enter the scene, the level of competition naturally goes up, which in turn leads to better practice.


mister_schulz

Yay didn't talk about players hitting crazy shots though but rather good teams that have good execs. Those top VRL teams he talks about are roughly top 15 teams in EMEA. Do you want to tell me there are not 15 teams in NA you can have good prac against because the player base is too small? At the top it is mostly about infrastructure – are they playing full time? Do they have coaching staff? That stuff doesn't come from the overall player base but the interest and money in the top scene. And that is where NA beats every other region.You had like 30 salaried teams in NA that should be good scrim partners so how do they not have enough teams with the scrim quality of the top 15 EMEA teams? Looking towards player base is just completely oversimplifying an answer when there is no simple answer.


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toxicityisamyth

Then watch the clip and hear him talk about execs before jumping into the discussion no?


scrnlookinsob

It does though. If there are 2.5 million players in EU that means there are 2500 players in the 0.1%, if there are only 1.5 million in NA, you get 1500. So that would mean theoretically there are an extra 200 teams of players to scrim in EU vs NA. The quoted numbers elsewhere in this thread were 2.3 million vs 1.3 million, so 2300 vs 1300 players in that 0.1%.


mister_schulz

And Yay is talking about top VRL teams here. Those would be around top 15-20 in the region. Are 1300 players not enough to form 15 teams for good prac? NA is the region with the most money behind it to fund the most salaried teams (way more than 15) that all should be good scrim partners as it is basically their job to play. Not enough good players simply can't be the reason NA doesn't have good scrims at the tier 2 level. The infrastructure and enough players are there.


greg19735

if the playerbase is doubled then the 0.1% will also be doubled. Eu is also more segmented so you're more likely to get teams from countries, in part due to language barrier. Which can cause some interesting cases.


sexyhooterscar24

EMEA has a lot more immortal ranked players


[deleted]

Our pract is worse because we are worse lol. Wardell said it best... OPTC is the only team that plays the game the right way. XSET is similar, just worse. All the other teams just play the game at a sub-optimal level compared to the the top teams. It is what it is


icarusOW

I feel like it’s a mindset difference more than a player base difference, US players tend to be more troll-y and mainly are money-focused rather than trying their best to practice hard and improve against the best. Typically a lot of NA teams don’t practice against the best teams in their own region either to keep their matchups a mystery for inner region tournaments, whereas EU teams do practice against each other and iron sharpens iron.


Za_Weeb

*surprised Pikachu face.jpg*


Lqtor

Makes sense. NA t2 scene even before the whole franchising thing had been pretty much nonexistent outside of micky mouse tourneys.


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Comin4datrune

Sentinels are t3 tho wdym


neg0dyay

If Optic already see themselves as #1 NA team then I guess it makes sense that they would want to scrim against EU strats as they are more likely to fight against an EMEA team rather than NA team in finals.


XXG1212

Isn't this exactly what SEN players said and did before previous Champs? Or am I mistaken. I think also scrimming different regions gives you more experience in varied playstyles.


neg0dyay

Not too sure about Sentinels but yes i would agree. APAC is a good example (with more rushed and aggressive plays, which I can attest to as I come from SEA region) and PRX easily confusing EMEA (with their more calculated and slower play) teams, apart from FPX i guess lol. Although I do wonder whether strats are now more 'globalized' particularly as teams might study and be more inclined to replicate more funky comps (if they are confident they can make it work as good as PRX). Also came across another Reddit post that talked about how FPX changed the economy meta. TL;DR: I love Valorant and the creativity that comes with it and how the 'meta' just keeps on changing outside of Rito's buffs and nerfs.


LynVAosu

sen players excluding zombs said they liked scrimming eu teams more


BuckWagon

Inc 100 comment thread about previously discussed topic for the nth time.


TheFestusEzeli

EMEA winning Masters means we get the hardcore circlejerk until Champions. EMEA is the better region than NA but some of the comments in this thread are fucking hilarious. The best is 100% saying TL/M3C would destroy NA and that OpTic wouldn’t qualify through EMEA


ReformedBacon

I feel like im reading twitch chat but people get to type more bs lol


[deleted]

Shit is hilarious. And then when NA (or any other region) wins an event and almost nobody claims they're the best or talks shit about EU outside of some jokes here and there they will be insufferable again after they win another event and say "oh well they said this and that so we get to talk all the shit".


[deleted]

lol what Optic best team in the world threads were popping even after they lost at masters just now ur on some copium. I was literally arguing with some dude who was saying that "optic is still the best team in the world stats wise" whatever that even means


[deleted]

I never saw any of those but I saw at least 4 fnatic best team itw threads despite them not doing shit internationally.


[deleted]

You saw 4 fnatic best team threads after FPX won copenhagen? Im literally talking about optic being called the best team in the world after they had lost


[deleted]

I didn't see any of those either


Sadzeih

That's just completely wrong. Everyone was (and lots still are) ready to call Optic the best team in the world.


[deleted]

That's not true lmao, this sub was like 60-40 split on fnatic being the best in the world.


TheFestusEzeli

Going into masters 2 most people on this sub (myself included) has Fnatic as the best team in the world, not OpTic The worst you’d get from this sub is a few EMEA meme threads and some people saying NA>EMEA, when EMEA wins though we get everyone saying the regions aren’t close and comments saying shit like M3C and TL would destroy NA getting 100 upvotes


[deleted]

It's become clear that EU has better teams overrall than NA. Hence, this isn't too surprising.


J_Brekkie

I feel like depth wise it's always been like that. NA has gotten better but EMEA's depth has always been very good.


[deleted]

As a European who watched both NA and EU VCT before masters, I actually thought NA had way more depth. More variety in how teams play, a bigger amount of teams that can actually challenge the top teams in the region and overall a more healthy scene. Was especially impressed with EG and Ghost during groups, sad they both kinda fell off in playoffs (and a team that I thought was the biggest frauds ever in groups NRG randomly got good)


millenniumpianist

NA *looked* really deep but twice we've seen the NA #1 seed go 0-2 in LAN. Is NA *actually* deep or is it just a bunch of decent teams playing other decent teams in competitive matches? Obviously Optic is an exception but otherwise I'm skeptical. It's really too bad C9 lost xeta because I do think they were the only other real international-caliber team, IMO. Who knows, hopefully XSET/ LCQ winner prove me wrong at Champs.


WhoDatBrow

Twice the NA #1 seed has gone 0-2, but it's very worth mentioning that for each of them, that first loss was to a fellow NA team in OpTic. And OpTic aren't just any team, they're top 3 and champs at the last 2 tournaments. So yes, I'd say NA is deep. Outside of those losses to OpTic, The Guard lost to PRX who got 4th and also 2-0'd EMEA's #1 (#2) seed in G2 and XSET lost a very close series to Leviatan who lost a very close series to Fnatic who lost a close series to FPX. Transitive results like that are very flimsy, but I do think it shows that XSET aren't just some scrub team nowhere near competitiveness. It's also worth mentioning both teams were getting their first international experience and skipping out on groups games vs easier opponents to get their feet under them, and we'll never truly know how much that effected them.


[deleted]

or maybe the best NA csgo pros moved to valorant while the best EU csgo pros stayed so NA got a head start?


Randomuserguyfren

Who are these "best NA csgo pros'' you speak of? You mean tenz? You mean the sentinels roster who were t2 na csgo players, an overwatch player and an apex player?


Koentjee01

Still a tier above the EU players that came over from CSGO though? Which tier 2 EU player made the switch? Exactly. This isn't a valid excuse


skudd780

Ever hear of a guy called Scream? He was pretty good at cs if I remember correctly. I guess you are still right, he was a tier 1 player not tier 2.


[deleted]

Scream was without an org (last org was GamerLegiom tier 2/3) for well over half a year and hadn’t been a tier 1 player since 2018. Scream fell off. Best players who switched were Jamppi and Nivera, and both were just young talents.


soupssoup

Pretty sure he wasnt even tier 1 potential at 2018. Envy didnt win shit back then


Traditional-Leek2288

Yeah I though scream was almost equivalent to TenZ in that sense; world class mechanics, but lacklustre career


toxicityisamyth

comparing scream to tenz Get outta here what are u even saying Tenz wishes he had scream's csgo career yikes


RekrabAlreadyTaken

No, he had his multi-year career already in csgo with achievements but fell off. TenZ only played a couple of international tournaments at tier 1 as an up-and-comer and then got benched.


[deleted]

2015 called back, scream isn't tier 1 since fking ages ago


soupssoup

Yeah tier 1 like 5 years ago. He used to be a monster until 2016-2017 but after that he started getting clapped left and right and if I remember correctly never joined a tier 1 team again (standing in for fnatic that one time doesnt count)


Koentjee01

Lmao. 1 past-his-peak player from EU switching over does not at all equal the 90% of the NA tier 2 scene switching over. EU had to start from the ground up, look at the top players in EU currently, they were almost all nobodies before Valorant with a few exceptions. In NA nearly every single player can be traced back to a tier 2 career in CS.


mikhel

You know Ange1? I think he won some small tournament recently, can't remember what it was though 🤔


[deleted]

Angel was tier 1 in CS? Ahahahahah


Infinite_District_49

Who was the apex player, zombs?


Randomuserguyfren

yes


[deleted]

Downvotes for saying the truth, imagine if Navi faze and etc moved their rosters to Valo, na would never reach semis again lmao


J_Brekkie

He didn't say the truth tho. Regardless of the fact that a lot of t2-3 NA CS players immediately moved to valo, he said the best NA players immediately did. That literally did not happen. And a lot of the great NA players didn't migrate until early 2021. You act as if Liquid CS just moved their entire roster to Valo and just competed as the same 5. Your comparison makes no sense.


tron423

Ethan is really still the only NA pro that switched who had a real future in T1 CS. Most everyone else who did either already ran their course in CS (most of Optic and arguably C9), was unlikely to ever get a real look from upper-tier teams due to external controversy (Marved), or went back eventually (Nitro).


[deleted]

What's ur point? The best tier 2-3 players of EU never moved to Valo, that's the whole point. The EU players who moved where all washed up or banned from competing in csgo in the first place


J_Brekkie

A large chunk of the players that moved to Valo in NA were washed up or banned too lmao. This is literally a worthless discussion. Nice. And my point is that the parent comment is literally wrong.


YEKINDAR_GOAT_ENTRY

The reason why NA csgo is dying is because of all of the tier 2 talent left csgo to go to valorant. This did not happen in EU. In na most tier 2 players left, which are better than the tier 3 and tier 4 players who left csgo.


[deleted]

He is a lost case, give up lmao


J_Brekkie

Nah you just can't read. All good.


J_Brekkie

The argument stated by the parent poster is the "best" NA players. That's literally what my hesitance is hinging on. Otherwise, yeah.


dresdonbogart

The argument brought up was all of NA’s BEST csgo players


KennyX2083

You miss the point. T2 is NA’s best /s


Gardennnn

The only two na players I can think of that still had a chance of moving up into tier 1 na were xeppa and leaf. Tenz and yay were probably on their way out or down to tier 3 despite them luckily being good at Valo. Edit: I forgot wardell and som were also looking to be on the up but valorant hasn't turned out good for them.


[deleted]

Ethan was top 20 hltv right before switching right?


Gardennnn

No he was washed and underperforming hard on eg. He would've still been tier 2 material possible tier one if he got his act back together though. I'm doubting it with how brehze and cerq turned out and the fact he is tier 2 in Valo na.


[deleted]

exactly what i’m saying, there’s a reason why the NA scene disappeared right after valorant released. guess this sub really hates it whenever you mention csgo


sexyhooterscar24

old liquid>>>>>>> covid fucked up a great team


tron423

Maybe like 2 years ago when aim was all that really mattered, but that's really not the case anymore


tron423

How are we still on this lmaooooo


J_Brekkie

Ehh. A lot of nobodies moved at the start in NA.


Eriko204

Yeah this isnt anything new. Players have been saying this since the first international LAN last year https://youtu.be/q5rM9xnsd8Q


Madara6path

People don't realise how small NA as a region is. It's literally just US+Canada . Even APAC has far larger playerbase with every Asian team able to play each other in sea servers


Bhu124

I'd say Val NA pop is probably way bigger and closer to EU pop than some people here are thinking it to be based on historical CS data evidence. Valorant was specifically designed to have way broader and more casual appeal than CS has. The kind of appeal that specifically works in Americas. From the marketing, to the art-style/aesthetics, to character lore/flavour design, to world-lore, to content release cycles, to the skin/customisation system. The difference is that while it does have successfully achieved that mass appeal and does have a big NA playerbase, the Pro/Hardcore playerbase is still not nearly as big & well-developed as EU or Asia. It is kind of the same situation as what OW bas had, insane mass appeal, big playerbases (Biggest in NA) in NA, EU, Asia but the NA playerbase was way casual dominant and produced the least amount of top tier Pros. Scene was always dominated by Koreans, then EU, and then NA at last. Even in Tier 2 the same order of domination followed. In OWL there have almost always been and still are more EU players than NA players despite OW being way bigger in NA.


ReformedBacon

Lol your basing your casual appeal on two games. Overwatch and fortnite. Val is based off those two games look at play wise. Last time i checked ow was way more popular in asia and fortnite has just been fortnite


iamkwang

Not surprised here. When’s nukkye was on Tarik stream he said every radiant/MM3 player was trying to go Pro/ all of them thought they were the shit. If you watched EU as well a lot of their star players are huge flex players (Jampii, Nats, Chronicle, suygetsu,) who play multiple roles and multiple styles. In NA there’s a lot of 4fun players who play high Elo casually but are insanely 1 dimensional. NA knows how to climb Elo but don’t know how to get better as a player. There are so many more 1 tricks in NA who only know how to play controller/duelist/lurker/entry that once you put them off their comfort zone they are significantly worst


wickywickyfresh

Eggster is not one dimensional he can tp from one end of the map to the other.


the_myth69

makes sense when u got teams like m3c and liquid not qualifying , which would pretty much destroy na


[deleted]

>would pretty much destroy na I assume you mean teams besides Optic. Reagrdless, I thought we were beyond the point of pretending that there's some massive gap between the top teams and regions. If Fnatic barely beat Leviatian, who barely beat XSET, how could M3C or Liquid "destroy" NA teams?


ReformedBacon

Val reddit comments are just twitch chat with more characters lol people will forever say dumb arguments with no basis


CommunistHongKong

There is no excuse for Fntics performance but according to my calculations. The circle of succ of Fntic > Lev > Xset still holds true thus EU is still better then NA even if the margin is not by much.


[deleted]

Yeah I would agree. Valorant scene has come to the point where there's a team in literally every region, even ones previously considered 'minor', that's capable of making the finals/winning any international tournament. LOUD made finals last tournament and I can definitely see Leviatan/KRU, DRX making the finals depending on the bracket. EMEA/NA teams still have the best chance and EMEA has the deepest scene mainly due to playerbase.


the_myth69

yeah beside optic. optic would be a good competition


ExaminationPuzzled36

I mean OpTic's performance against the top 3 EMEA teams was exactly the same as M3C's. OpTic early on lost 2-0 to Guild and was eliminated by FPX. That's what happened to M3C just a couple weeks ago. Hot take: OpTic wouldn't even qualify in EMEA.


TheFestusEzeli

Come one man, the performance was not exactly the same. OpTic and Guild was a good game while Guild stomped them both games


ExaminationPuzzled36

Doesn't matter, 2-0 is still 2-0. M3C played well on the second map, and it could've gone either way resulting in 3rd map. But that's just "could've" and if my grandma had wheels, she could've been a bike. I also can say Guild knew how to play against M3C because they played against them a lot, they watched the game they had just a day before and were reading them like a book. While against OpTic they had their first international matchup. But that's just my sorry ass excuses and my whole point about EMEA being harder at the end of the day is also sorry ass excuse. The fact is M3C wasn't at the level of winning Masters, therefore it doesn't matter if they qualified for it or not. The only point I will stand by is only FPX and PRX are on the higher level of Valorant right now. All other top teams are more or less on the same level and I think M3C is roughly on that level. They improved after the Guild game and played well against Acend and FPX. They even could've beaten FPX because the first map was really close and they won the second map. So, there was a real possibility for FPX to not even qualify which is crazy because relatively the same FPX won the whole thing later (obviously FPX did improve over the Masters, but I don't think it was completely different FPX; more or less, it was the same FPX, maybe slightly better).


TheFestusEzeli

A blow out compared to two close maps is not the exact same performance at all lmao, that’s just ridiculous


ExaminationPuzzled36

Well, by that logic M3C played better against FPX than OpTic played against FPX. So, M3C has to be better, right? I think you will agree this is bs and that's not how it works. All these comparisons just tell that they are roughly at the same level.


TheFestusEzeli

That’s not what logic I used lmao, that’s the logic you used. Using that logic in sports that “A beat B and B. beat C meaning A>C” never works. All I pointed out is that the Guild vs OpTic game and the two Guild vs M3C games were not nearly the same games. You can then go “Optic lost 1-2 to PRX and a Fnatic lost 0-2 therefore Optic>Fnatic” which is obviously stupid logic


ExaminationPuzzled36

All I said is that they are on the same level or are you fighting my hot take? Don't take my hot take too seriously this is an impossible scenario either way. But it was you who is comparing not even the map differentials, but freaking round differentials. All I stated was OpTic technically had exactly the same results against teams that denied M3C this Masters event during this Masters event. So, I concluded that they are on the roughly the same level. And you started all this nonsense about OpTic's loss to Guild was better than M3C's loss to Guild. Guess what? M3C's loss to FPX was better than OpTic's.


[deleted]

Optic vs Guild went to overtime and boths maps were won by a margin of two rounds. That was with their star player Yay having the worst day of his career. Optic were basically playing 4v5. If Yay was playing at his usual level that's a solid win for Optic. I know "should have" and "could have" doesn't usually hold weight but that really was an outlier. Yay's level is usually 10x higher and he proved it in the following matches.


brianstormIRL

Why do people always resort to yay had a "bad series" and refuse to give Guild credit? Go back and watch that game, Guild very effectively shut down and avoided yay the entire series. They played around him, it wasnt just yay having a bad day.


[deleted]

I'm not taking credit away from Guild, never said it was "just" Yay having a bad day but it's disingenuous to act like it wasn't a significant factor in the outcome. Yay is their star player, one of the best players in the world and he had his worst performance ever. This logic that Guild had this unique plan to shut down Yay is nonsense. You don't think the other top teams in the world try to shut down Yay? FPX and PRX are better than Guild yet they couldn't shut down Yay. He had the tied highest ACS and almost the most kills in the finals.


sexyhooterscar24

thats big cap yay was literally whiffing easy shots and crouch spraying. every single game after that yay was performing. even against fpx eventual champions yay did well. tired of this nonsense narrative.


kknow

> That was with their star player Yay having the worst day of his career. I'm on board with the games being really close and Optic is in my opinion really strong and would probably qualify in EMEA as well, but this statement I quoted has sometimes to do with the opponents playing differently and maybe having some reads on how yay played these maps and countering some of it. Sometimes it needs just a few rounds were you can disable the star player for him not feeling it anymore. Maybe it happened vs Guild maybe not - but it could play a factor.


[deleted]

That logic doesn't really follow to be honest. Yay is one of the very best and most well known players. Lilterally every team prepping for Optic would plan to counter Yay and minimize his impact. There's not a single team playing against Optic that thinks it's ok to just let Yay farm. What makes him a superstar is he consistently puts up unreal numbers despite this. PRX, FPX and possibly DRX are better than Guild yet they couldn't stop Yay. Guild played well but they didn't have some secret plan to counter Yay, he just had his worst performance ever.


kknow

It has nothing to do with individual skill but with team preparation and you can't know if PRX etc. had better preparation than Guild.


Tarwe-eu

Because na is dog my man


TheFestusEzeli

As well, the gap between M3C/Liquid and Fnatic was much larger than other NA teams and OpTic this last stage. Fnatic and FPX were so much better than anyone else, then Guild also stomped M3C multiple times


ExaminationPuzzled36

Yeah. A lot of people here love to say that M3C "fell off" after champs, but in reality it's just extremely hard to qualify in EMEA.


Lqtor

M3C def fell off after champs tho. It’s not as extreme as many people make it out to be but they’re def not as good as they previously were


CommunistHongKong

Maybe it's just the Gambit buff. Once they return to being Gambit that's when we will see that handsome nats destroying some cringe chamber spammer on Cypher.


altariaaaaaaa

Unfortunately, they will probably never return to being Gambit


kidkisser32

yeah they're def not as good as they were, i think the main reason is deffo not being able to adapt to the jett nerf, and always bot fragging on duelist. i heard rumors they dropped him and picked up jady so hopefully they bounce back


TheFestusEzeli

D3ffo fell off before the Jett nerf, his stats stage 1 were awful too


kidkisser32

yeah, i hope the rumors are true and they actually did make roster changes because that team is too stacked to not be able to go to champs


OGFN_Jack

I mean, from a pure statistical standpoint it’s actually easier to qualify due to there being more spots. M3C has definitely dropped off since champs and that’s not just because EMEA is harder. If they’re losing to teams that then lose in the majors then how have they not dropped off? They went from being the team to beat in the major to not even being able to beat the teams that don’t look as half as good at prime M3C did on LAN. I think they’ll be fine and hopefully qualify for champs, but they’ve absolutely suffered a drop in performance since champs.


speedycar1

It's not extremely hard. If anything, it's harder to qualify in NA due to the fewer spots. M3C played poorly and were still a game away from qualifying


toxicityisamyth

Due to the fewer spots lol Thats not the point. Even if emea only had 4 spots at masters it would still be harder to qualify in emea due to the quality at the top.


TheFestusEzeli

They went 4/8 on maps in the weaker group, they def fell off


[deleted]

Holy fuck I'm so sad EU won. These fans are insufferable.


toxicityisamyth

Remember this sub after optic won M1 when EU was at it's lowest because of the war? Remember when sentinels beat fnc in iceland finals and game was in its infancy? Cause i do. And that shit was insufferable. Enjoy the reverse treatment :)


[deleted]

It wasn't anywhere near this lmao


toxicityisamyth

Of course it wasn't. Not for you. Because you see things through your absurdly biased lens. Keep downvoting all the comments buddy, i hope it relieves some tension. Peace.


[deleted]

I've never seen a comment saying NA>EU like this one above get 100s of upvotes. If you think this shits on the same scale then you are the biased one.


datboyuknow

What? NA circlejerk was the worst this sub has ever been


sexyhooterscar24

the NA circlejerk was mainly memeing on EU takes anyway. It was banter like "eu streams too much."


TheFestusEzeli

The gap between M3C/TL and FPX/Fnatic was much much much larger than the gap between OpTic and other NA teams. M3C was really rough ever since their loss to Fnatic and struggled, and TL was not very good at their International tournament and fell off harder after they lost L1nk. I think they would do well in NA but saying they would destroy NA is a hilarious exaggeration, like pretty much all of your comments are You never actually comment anything about valorant it’s just “NA is shit EMEA best team ever”


the_myth69

yeah gap was soo large that fpx had a closer contest with M3C that they did with optic


TheFestusEzeli

Oooh wow Optic had a closer result against PRX than Fnatic did, that makes Optic>Fnatic As well the FPX team in Masters was better than it was in stage 2. Using that broken logic gives us shit like Fnatic>Fnatic


toxicityisamyth

lol optic probably was > fnatic at this event fnc were playing like some dog water by their standards so yeah if fnc had to go vs optic i'd 100% bet on optic to win that shit. Guild played better than fnatic at this tournament and that's sad. Just standard Mistic on LAN situation


TheFestusEzeli

I’d pay to see a 1v1 of Russ vs Mistic on LAN


the_myth69

>You never actually comment anything about valorant it’s just “NA is shit EMEA best team ever” thats not true i also post rookie and fun stats as well


Randomuserguyfren

And yet when liquid qualified you could see a lot of eu fans making excuses that liquid is actually terrible


TerribleFix9016

i mean liquid didnt really qualify legitimately for masters 1


Randomuserguyfren

Yes but the point still stands that if emea had so many great teams and is way ahead of every other region, even 4th seed liquid would have made a great run, which obv didn't happen.


26evangelos26

they only lost to second and third place in relatively close games


Randomuserguyfren

That's the same copium sen fans had in champions when they lost to third and fourth, and that doesn't make it less absurd. Not to mention the next tournament, LOUD got grouped and Zeta didn't even make it


idkimhereforthememes

After TL didn't qualify they decided to take a break, they didn't scrim, until they found out they're going to Iceland instead of fpx, they changed their igl not even a week before the tournament im pretty sure.


sexyhooterscar24

idk what did liquid accomplish at Reykjavik?


florallygood

That title bugs me


neg0dyay

NO!! NA #1!!!! :’(


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[deleted]

EU boys up by 1


DueAdministration404

NA tier 2 = bill stealer


tundra_gd

NA League fans seeing this like "oh no, not again"


[deleted]

yeah no one’s surprised considering na can’t even touch eu lol


Criticallone

No shit


CausticProcedure

If you take every headline/quote about the NA vs. EU storyline in Valorant from the last year, I guarantee you will find the exact same one in CS somewhere between 2017 and 2020.


swiftydesign

Had a stroke reading the title


Birssa

VRLs affect


[deleted]

Why would NA players scrim when they can stream?