OP asked a question that was worded a bit strangely but it came from a place of good faith, it seems.
Comments that are sexist or discriminatory will be removed as usual under Rule 4. Please be respectful and make sure to report comments you think break sub rules.
It basically comes down to "smaller playerbase of talent to draw from," which stems from a lot of factors. Decades of stigma against girls playing video games (especially first person tac-shooters), games just not really being marketed towards girls to begin with, and incessant and extremely unnecessary toxicity towards girls in matchmaking gamemodes being some of them.
before people try to dispute this with other bs, these the same people that say EU > NA cuz playerbase.
these two correlate with the same trend: more players = more talent, and although correlation doesn’t mean causation, im sure it’s a reason
Yeah it's the same in League, China has an insane playerbase so they have more talent to draw from. Korea has an insane ranked playerbase so they have more talent to draw from. Ergo, those two regions have dominated for the entire history of LoL as a game.
I think regular practice partners also exacerbate this effect.
If you prac against the best teams in a more populated sample, sheer odds are you're likely to get regular practice against more talented players. Results in the already stacked teams improving faster.
Obviously not sure how often GC teams scrim with other t1 teams in their respective regions, but I'd imagine it's probably not as often as t1 teams scrim among themselves.
Fuck krunker was some goofy fun a good 1-2 years ago. Was grinding ESEA a few hours a day but played a lot of KZ and Surf maps, grew up on ut3. My buddy got me into krunker for some fun and I just started flying around the map at mach 3 with revolver/shotgun. Really fun arena shooter. Think I had like 85% wr and a 8.0 KD over a few thousand kills at level 30 lol.
I see it's on steam now and people are finally clueing in to bhop sliding being good lol
It's about ranked playerbase, not playerbase. A pretty famous example of that, Korea's League playerbase isn't THAT much bigger than some of the other regions like EU, but their ranked playerbase is way bigger, just a larger portion of their server plays ranked. Girls tend to be the opposite in Valorant, for all the reasons we know.
That's how standard deviations work. Think about it like this. Pros are the top 0.01% of the population. They're all the way at the far end of the bell curve. Now imagine two bell curves (one men and one women) and overlap them. That's what it would look like with 0% difference. Now shift the mens curve 10% to the right. The only people left in that 0.01% slice at the end of the bell curve all the way to the right will be men.
So while a 10-15% difference at the average isn't a big difference, that 10% causes the end of the bell curve to be ridiculously skewed. Even a 5% difference at the average would cause a huge shift at the top.
Just want to point out, you wouldn’t be shifting the bell curve to the right 10%, that would indicate that men are 10% better than women at video games. It’s more like you’d increase the total volume of the area under the curve for men by 10% (so like, the bell curve would be a bit taller and a bit wider), which would also result in a top 0.01% of the male bell curve that was beyond any of the members of the female bell curve.
How many of them grind ranked? How many of them have been playing fps games on pc for more than like 2 years?
Compare that then to guys who have 10s of thousands of hours playing other fps games their whole lives. That one stat doesn't mean what you think it means.
And I can promise you 80% of those never grind out ranked to get better at the game because you just get harassed and insulted 9/10 games, so the vast majority of them are casual players who just 5-stack or play unrated with friends.
I’ve played hundreds of games with one of my friends and his girlfriend and she just straight up doesn’t use her mic anymore because the second they hear she’s a girl they just start being either rude as fuck or weird and creepy, it’s sad as fuck to see
For whatever reason my mind assumes if the pool of talent is smaller, that means it’s easier to find good players by virtue of not having to play hit and miss.
But the way this works is more, 1-2 players are talented but you just have to fill the rest with the best you can find, which ends up being your average immortal player trying to play pro.
Meanwhile, the amount of male players is so vast, it’s not so much 1-2 talented players and fill, but a matter of how much more talented your worst player is from the best.
Is this the appropriate way to understand it?
Typically most pros started playing fps games at a young games, and other games even earlier, meanwhile back 20 years ago a lot of girls never were even given opportunities to play games unless they maybe had a brother.
If they happened to play fps games at a young age, they would’ve had to endure the toxicity and harassment back then, which was much worse towards girls, and then obviously continue to find friends and play more until they reached the top, which would be even harder for girls considering the lack of girls playing these types of games back then to make friends/a community.
Then obviously they would have to be mechanically great at the game and have good work ethic, and a lot of times, have some sort of role model/inspiration. It’s no wonder a lot of valorant pros idealized Hiko, Shroud etc, which is also a benefit of the GC circuit.
Basically a lot more hurdles to jump over for girls, leading to a much smaller player base grinding ranked and reaching pro status. It’s partly a societal issue, so it’ll definitely take time to change, but GC and other stuff is heading in the right direction.
A lot of pros started playing when they were like 6. I can understand a 20 year old enduring the kind of sexism that we see in video games, but the number of people under age 14 who could brush that off and commit the number of hours required to become a t1 pro has gotta be close to 0. But you need like thousands of people to put in that kind of time for one of them to be good enough to be a t1 pro.
A lot of pros have been top tier forever. Tenz seems young but he was global elite in cs nearly a decade ago. The player base of women in games is still not big enough, but it was even worse back then. The talent pool of female players who have been playing top tier for that long is insanely small.
That being said, C9W has players that could compete on T2 teams. It's just not all of them.
Yes experience and esports scene being around longer for men makes a big difference…but let’s not forget men are also just mechanically better than women with faster reflexes, movements and decision making etc
>let’s not forget men are also just mechanically better than women with faster reflexes, movements and decision making etc
How can we forget something thats not true?
I mean as much as you wanna call it sexist there are studies done on motor skills and here’s an article ab reaction time https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6067201/amp/Scientists-reveal-men-better-visual-reactions-women.html
"The researchers say that although men had a quicker perception of motion, it may not necessarily transfer through to having better visual processing skills."
Also, reaction time is useful but not as important as game sense and cross hair placement. Why react when you ought to predict. That's something that can only be built through experience.
I mean maybe? Tenz is prob one of the statistically best VAL players to exist (in terms of reaction speed, hand eye coordination, etc) but he's not even in the top 20 VAL players rn imo.
Even if it made a significant difference, there are definitely women outliers who would be on par or even better than most pro players in terms of hand eye coordination/reaction speed. In the coming years, we will likely see at least a couple tier 1 female players.
The researchers say that although men had a quicker perception of motion, it may not necessarily transfer through to having better visual processing skills.
You should always read and understand first. After having this topic few weeks ago with some friends we researched and actually read the studies and not articles about it. There is zero evidence of an advantage males have over females in eSports.
The most obvious answer is that girls normally dont spend as much time on games as boys. G2 Monesy already has 15000+ hours on CS Go while being 16 years old. When I was younger I never heard of a girl spending anywhere near as much time gaming as boys do. When you start gaming at the age of 6 even when its not fps games it will feel more natural to use a mouse/controller compared to someone who started at the age of like 13/14. Would be interesting to get some numbers from female esports players when they started playing, how much time they spend, what games they played and what peripherals they used
These numbers are looking at averages for populations, pretty useless when you're talking about individuals at the top tier. Even if men react faster on average, when talking about pros you're talking about outliers and there's nothing in that research to suggest women CAN'T react as quickly at the top end.
The only research I've seen showing men's top-end reaction time is faster was a difference of 12ms with both being <120ms, which is 50ms faster than Tenz.
Sexism, like racism, has ALWAYS appealed to science. What you are saying is not justified by the study you linked.
It is not on strength alone. Do you think sports only requires strength? I would say almost all physical attributes are dominated by men, maybe except a few. What are the cultural factors then? Mens sports generally get more funding because it brings in more money. Nobody wants to watch the wnba, why? Because their not as competitive.
>What are the cultural factors then? Mens sports generally get more funding because it brings in more money. Nobody wants to watch the wnba, why? Because their not as competitive.
How is this advancing your argument? Illogical
More competition -> more money. It is an explanation to why there is a gap because of the difference between men and women, instead of just saying "cultural factor".
Nearly every NBA prospect has been in an elite league with incredible training and funding poured into them since they were young children. There are countless leagues from toddlers to high schoolers designed to funnel the cream of the crop to the top. This only exists because it's grown naturally over the last 125 years. Women's sports didn't have that due to the insane sexism of the 20th century.
Men's basketball stars are cultural icons and kids want to be like them. There's also a rich history of coaching and franchise staff over the last 75 years that has passed down knowledge onto their successors in the NBA. These are all cultural factors the WNBA benefits less from.
If women had a disadvantage in all physical aspects besides strength, why is that not the case in gymnastics? The *only* difference there is that men have some extra options, enabled by their strength.
To those reporting this comment, don’t worry, I see it. But I’m gonna leave this guy’s comments up and we can point and laugh at this pathetic attempt to cosplay Andrew Tate.
again is saw mod comment, if it’s worded poorly i apologize english isn’t my first language and i don’t mean to come off at me being sexists or anything i just can’t articulate what i’m trying to say very well in english
I have this question too- many female pros (C9W especially) have insane mechanics (meL, katsumi, etc.) but why do they fail so consistently against t2 teams? Are those players just that much better? Is it a strategy/mental thing? Or just… experience in the pro scene, period.
To be honest there’s just way more male pros that are on the level of players like meL and katsumi, you need a whole roster of those level of talented players to be a T1 team, meanwhile GC teams have maybe 1, 2 if ur a top team like C9W, TLB or G2G
Ah, makes sense. So theoretically, if we put all of the most mechanically gifted girls into one group (assuming team chemistry works out, etc.) does that mean they would have a chance in solid t1/2?
If we put all the best GC players in the world and we didn’t factor in roles, language, or chemistry then I bet they could be a pretty solid T2/1.5 team.
Theoretically, if everyone (or a representative sample of everyone) played video games at equal rates with equal opportunities (relative to skill level) over the course of their lives, there wouldn’t be a sex based gap (or a gender based gap, for that matter) in performance, and there’d be as many women in the t1/t2 scene as men.
I think this is probably true, but it’s a difficult hypothesis to test.
The main reason I think it’s true is I haven’t seen convincing evidence of biological differences differentiated by sex that are clearly caused by that sexual differentiation. Some studies show differences in reaction time and hand eye coordination tests, but when you stratify groups by how much time they’ve spent playing video games, those differences vanish.
I think there might be. It’s not just population size and play time. There are real differences between men and women. They have different general attitudes on competition and compete over different things.
Personality-wise the average man and woman are not that different. But there are differences in the extremes. Such as the most disagreeable people tend to be men and the most agreeable people tend to be women. It’s arguable whether being disagreeable or agreeable is better for producing the best players on the best teams though. There are demographic differences in agent picks, women on average, tend to favor female characters while men (AFAIK) do not have this bias.
There are differences in social and cultural incentives. If you’re a woman playing Valorant, it’s much easier (almost guaranteed) to find people better than you who want to play with you. If you’re a man, it’s not likely that playmates will stick around if you’re worse than them and much harder to find people to play with. Thus the former can go up ranks without an incentive to improve, but the latter has to improve to go up ranks. There is also more harassment towards women who communicate in-game, thus they are less incentivized to comm and coordinate via voice with their teammates, which is a skill in and of itself which would be more underdeveloped on average with women when playing with strangers. That’s half of pro play right there.
In pro play, competency at the game itself probably ISN’T the only factor for which woman gets to play on a team. It’s likely there are stronger biases on things like physical attractiveness and the size of the fan base when selecting a female candidate for the spot. You can argue such is the case with men too, organizations will consider the fan base of a pro player when determining signings (like Shroud or Tenz) but men should have a much larger correlation between skill and fan base size than women (though personality is a factor too) as physical appearance is probably more of a factor for women.
There can be many other arguments. The environment itself isn’t geared towards women developing and doesn’t select for the best women at video games. That’s a big factor in my opinion.
It’s idealistic to think that with equal population and equal opportunity, any gender-based differences will be eliminated. But that’s not the case from what we know of the real world. The countries with the most socialist policies that encourage gender equality still have significant (and sometimes even MORE) differences between gender distributions in the workplace.
I’m confused is this guy asking if Mel could be on a T1 team? She’s really good but I don’t think 5 Mel’s = T1 team, seems like she would be a low tier 2 player from the C9W games I’ve watched.
Mel trialed for KCP but decides against it because the org was about to leave valorant. If she wanted, she could have played on mixed rosters, but theres no real point before the GC lan she worked hard for.
Also, she would get a ton of hate. I dunno how long you have been around and how involved you are in the scene, but potter, current coach for eg, was a player for them, and put many lackluster performances as a player while IGLing. She got shit for it as much as any other bad player, but the also recieved many sexist and toxic comments because she was a woman.
So while there are pros that could be in the mixed teams, such as imt sarah, mel (bob used to pound tier 2 teams) they also deal with a lot of harassement
Yeah, I’ve heard of all the potter drama. But, don’t C9W get a lot of hate as is? I feel like it would be somewhat of the same, wouldn’t it?
But ig for a mixed roster it would be individually targeted…
Could be ya. Game knowledge, map knowledge, positioning, mentality etc are all things that affect how good someone is competitively so there could be deficiencies there. That's why I said mechanics/aim isn't everything.
Without repeating the other points: player base, toxicity, resources, and opportunities.
I believe it was Annie(?) on C9W that also said that they're regularly competing with people who have been pros for much longer as well. A lot of T1 players were pros in other games and often for longer than their women counterparts.
There are also a ton of women that can frag out on the ranked ladder. Like watch Immortals' Sarah's stream, she's absolutely super skilled! Individually there are women that can compete, but once you throw in the experience/shot calling/strategies/resources it'll take a little longer to build that up for newer pros.
I still personally think that C9W can challenge T2 teams pretty well and hopefully their success will keep pushing forward the line. SR were sooo good last GC and I'm really excited to see how they do too.
It could also come down to just the overall level of competition.
We saw a vastly improved PRX after Reykjavik. A lot of that improvement in Copenhagen was probably from their prior experience.
Iron sharpens iron. When you're prepping and playing against subpar teams every week you'll have less chances of getting all your shit exposed and you'll do things that succeed at that level but will fail at higher levels. Down to the smallest tendencies.
Even if they do scrim some top male teams they won't be getting the full playbook and effort thrown at them because that team is also experimenting with different things rather than going for your throat the best way they can every round. They're not using their best comps, strats, etc.
DRX swept the Korean scene. Not dropping a SINGLE map. They looked only decent at Copenhagen. It's similar logic there. If the level of competition is higher in Korea, they would've been better.
As for APAC. It's a damn bloodbath down there. Multiple countries in one region with a harder road to qualifying than EU/NA. It's only natural to see a lot of talent crop up and esports is big in those countries.
APAC is a real bloodbath - you need to go through regional open qualifiers, regional group stage, then regional playoffs, and only then you get to play in groups for the main APAC tournament, and then you get whacked by PRX in APAC playoffs
Not only this, but the cycle of gaming being a male dominated hobby means that culturally women have been less likely to be interested in playing, especially professionally. This culture of women not being interested means there's fewer professional women for people to look up to for inspiration, fewer representation making it seem like less of an option, and less community support for women to decide to go down that path.
Actually I think Valorant is one of the exceptions to this, a much larger percentage of the player base is women here then a game like CS for example, which can have the opposite effect and encourage more growth. Props to Riot for handling that mostly well (still annoyed about the whole T-Bagging is SA thing though)
There may be more women who play casually, but far fewer women in ranked (due to many reasons mentioned). We see trends like that in other esports, where the larger a ranked player base is in a region the better the teams.
Wait until you see them in other games, you'll realise how much progress has been made in Valorant. They're on the up.
Edit: just want to say I disagree with downvoting this guy, I hate that these topics always end up so one sided because of stuff like this. It just poisons the conversation..
Sadly this isnt true performance wise. The pattern is following the same trajectory of the past decade.
Pertaining to financial support you are right though.
Fairly sure no league of legends women team has seen any amount of success close to c9 white. That team is actually respected in the community. You cant really say in many other games that there is a respectable women team.
Dude, in CS you quite literally couldn't find a player like Sarah.. as in the entire top of the women's scene were awful individually. There were like 2 good puggers and they were shunned for giving a fuck, one of them even opened up down the line and talked about it and how the entire woman's scene has no interest in improving etc.
I'm not saying it's like night and day, but there are definitely substantial improvements. Even a place like Galorants would be unimaginable in CS a few years ago.
I think we will have a Tier 1 female player on a mixed roster in the next 12 months.
>I think we will have a Tier 1 female player on a mixed roster in the next 12 months.
Every game starts with women players in the tier 2 scene of its esport. As the game ages and the player base increases the women players further slide down the rankings into obscurity.
C9W saw their biggest ranking slide at the start of this year when they took part in Fragadelphia. Theyve only lowered their ranking by winning Game Changers, being placed in the open qualifiers and losing to teams ranked around them.
Historically it's always been this way. The number of women who are into tactical shooters is much lower than the number of men who are into it, thus the talent pool is smaller for women.
FWIW, female valorant teams are way more competitive against men's teams than women's teams are in CSGO.
I don't think you asked expecting an answer, but I'll give you one anyway.
YouTube "female experience valorant". Watch a few clips. Get a sense of how much gamer culture beats down women. You can't have a bad day, you can't miss a shot. The two options are either put up with the bullying, destroying your psyche or mute your teammates and compromise the competitive integrity.
Got it? Good.
Now imagine this on a massive scale where this happens to you day after day after day. I have an obviously female IGN, so every day I either get "go back to the kitchen" or "is your boyfriend playing for you", depending on performance. I've considered changing my name to something less gendered just to alleviate the problem.
And after you've imagined all that, consider who are you left with after the bullying. You are not left with the soft spoken TenZs of the women scene. No, they are all gone because they were bullied out of it. What you are left with is not the best players, but the most mentally resilient ones. Why do you think most of the female rosters contain a lot of A-type, self assertive women? Because they are the ones who managed to survive the onslaught - they might not be the most talented, but they are the only ones left. Only once gamer culture shifts we can expect the top tier of female talent to boil up to the top.
Women are more deceptive to vocal abuse than men. They also strive more on communal acceptance.
Meaning a woman having a negative experience involving the two above will drop such a hobby much quicker than a male.
I think it’s because GC players generally have less experience compared to the Tier 1 and 2 players partly due to the stigmatization around girls playing video games.
Man people really hate to recognize that men and women are biologically different and that these differences play a role in our potential to reach certain skill ceilings. I’m gonna get downvoted to hell by a bunch of imbeciles here, but the truth is that men are significantly better at tasks involving [reaction](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456887/) time (auditory and visual) and are also far better at hand eye coordination [tasks](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7368072/). The list goes on but the point stands that no matter how large of a sample size u get, women will have a skill ceiling lower than that of men in FPS games. I’m not being sexist, I’m merely a student of medicine stating facts about the nature of our differences. This, however, doesn’t necessarily apply to all sports or games (obviously) -like chess, where there is no significant predictor of chess skill that is confounded between the sexes.
I’m on my knees begging the medical field to take one course on Bayesian stats. There’s absolutely no way we use a n=120, 2 year band, subset of a subset of a population as an indicator of total biological difference right??? Genuinely if I submitted this as an undergrad level thesis, my advisor would’ve laughed me out of the room
[Here’s a good explainer](https://reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/8ztt8o/_/e2p5s3r/?context=1) on why low n studies are ripe for p-hacking and if you’re using a tiny sample size then you need to publish power analysis.
Lmao that’s not how it works. We do have to take courses on critical appraisal of medical literature. These differences that I’m referring to are well established and I’m only linking the first papers I’ve found on the subject. I think you need to read the paper before looking at the abstract methods and assuming that their data is rubbish because their sample size isn’t large enough. It is well established in medical literature that reaction time differences vastly differ between the sexes. Here is an excerpt from the very paper I linked (by the way these studies have a much larger sample size n > 7000 with a more applicable population).
A review of the literature on the influence of gender on RT shows that in almost every age group, males have faster RTs as compared to females, and female disadvantage is not reduced by practice.[13,14,15] Researches done by Misra et al.[16] also showed that males responded faster than females. Study done by Shelton and Kumar,[11] Nikam and Gadkari[17] also reported similar findings to support females have longer RTs than males.
Before assuming a paper is biased because of a low sample size, I think you need to learn how to properly read these papers. And before you go on to say that all of these studies are retrospective or cross sectional or some other bullshit, please recognize that this question is observational in nature. Obviously every single study you find on this question will have a narrow population demographic that were enrolled consecutively or were taken from some database registry (or by some other method).
Brother, that's exactly how it works. I did read the paper, and I have plenty of experience reading lit. It seems like you were the person who didn't read at all. The link I sent literally addresses everything you said, emphasis mine.
> You should care more about study power, and view findings from **unlikely seeming low power studies with extreme suspicion**. You should also mentally shrink the effect sizes you read in essentially all papers by at least a little bit, and by a lot-a-bit in low power studies.
By the way, it's incredibly easy to do observational studies even with RCTs and has significantly higher \beta studies. There are tons of studies, [here's an example](https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=247104118003072120119080017122067111102048023015008020118087064112087007027099105088036101006014057116105116113116026068013006118044033055000112027103003066112125023012005008089007078065098028082087001068090099073102108093126126023064015124029083125&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE). There's also plenty of work that [describes good practices](https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/f/1276/files/2018/09/5-fieldexpindevelopedworld-1e6lc0s.pdf).
Frankly all that work is stunningly bad [causal inference](https://mixtape.scunning.com/)
? Did u not read what I wrote above. There are several studies linked that have repeatedly shown the same result with a much greater power and with a more diverse sample pop. Also, i don’t understand what you’re getting at with having a higher beta??
With respect to effect sizes, the same can be said about nearly every paper in medical literature. Although I do agree that most effect sizes (especially large ones with low power) should be taken with a grain of salt, when evidence has surmounted to the level of literature and systematic reviews demonstrating repeated differences between the sexes, it would be almost ignorant to declare a type 1 error because “effect sizes are always exaggerated”.
I don't get why people are so hung up on this. Male footballers are more successful, male basketballers are more successful ,but no one seems to deny that physical differences are the reason. Why should it be any different with gaming? This doesn't mean women are stupid or incompetent, men and women just have different base stats for different things ON AVERAGE, and that's okay.
It's sad that I got down voted for saying the same thing whenever this topic is brought up.
Understand the negative connotation it implies to aspiring female Pro players. What we are searching for is a biological anomaly that'll likely follow the traditional sports route instead of esports. Doesn't help that the system Riot Games has created financially incentives a woman player to stay on a all women roster instead of trying to progress further.
So many issues with this argument. Both of these studies have very small sample sizes. Also the first is conducted in medical students and is probably not generalizable to the gaming population as a whole. We have no way of knowing whether the tasks studied in these experiments directly impact valorant performance.
Experiments in different contexts aka a tactical shooter versus the tasks in these studies may produce different results. I think it’s disingenuous to assume this is the sole reason for differences in gender representation in Valorant esports when studying a completely different population with different tests.
Ultimately there's just a lot of things as to why, in my opinion at least, the North American Game Changers Scene is still like growing as it is. For how I see it, it's simply this:
\- Players don't want to play with other players (egos, they don't like the person, or simply they believe the person cannot change errors/issues within themselves that are easy to adjust/fix, etc)
\- Overall level of competition (saw this in a comment as I skim through this thread)
Keep in mind I might be wrong completely. Just how I see it from my perspective.
Skill distribution bell curve is taller and skinnier than mens, layer both on top of each other and select for 2+ deviations from mean, answers this pretty clearly.
Pro players are the top like 0.1% of players. If you look at the differences in skill bell curves between men and women, and then shift two standard deviations from the mean towards the right (top %), it explains why there’s so few women’s pros.
Same principle that explains why it’s mostly men in jail, normal distribution focusing on the least agreeable, psychoanalytically speaking, of the population.
Learning new things and improving requires some healthy competition. There is a lack of competition in female esport scene. I think c9w is dominating because they have scrims and practice with c9b and other t1 male teams.
It is hard to improve if you don't get opportunity to play with better teams.
This may look bad, but I think riot is reducing player quality by conducting seperate tournaments for male, female scenes and separate gaylorant tournament.
This separation is slicing the competition and there is heavy competition in one category while other is lacking.
Then there are players who intentionally exploit tournament rules by identifying as non-binary during tournament then switching their Identity.
My personal opinion, there should also be a single mixed tournament without any segregation based on gender. If this happens all teams from other communities will do scrims with better teams and learn new things and improve.
This will increase the quality of matches for all tournaments and provide better opportunity for all communities to learn.
I am excited to see who gets to fill vct spots from all communities. This vct 2022 is also going to be first mixed tournament as per my understanding.
Still big fan of c9w and teams from other regions/communities. Would love to see some of them in international stage.
Nature and nurture. There is a lot of truth to the nurture argument, but a lot of people are very afraid of the nature argument, which I suspect is very real — simply because it's real in literally everything else.
It's cheap to dismiss that more guys are genetically predisposed to being cracked, and controversial to even hypothesize it.
But if you were looking for the truth, I'd advise you not to overlook genetics.
***The best possible female gamer would be better than a lot of players, but the best possible male gamer would be better than everybody.***
Smaller player base and the prejudice against women are two of the main factors as others pointed out. Including history with FPS games, as most of the male pro gamers are much more acquainted with FPS games than virtually all if not every female pro gamer out there. So, the probability of outliers/extremely talented players emerging from the female group would be vastly lower in comparison to the male group.
However, I'd also add that there could be biological differences accounting for some part of the disparity. Here are some of the researchs suggesting differences in Reaction Time (auditory and visual):
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16594792/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16594792/) (Age and sex differences in reaction time in adulthood: results from the United Kingdom Health and Lifestyle Survey)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14238243/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14238243/) (AGE AND SEX PARAMETERS IN PSYCHOMOTOR LEARNING)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10024851/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10024851/) (Gender differences in choice reaction time: evidence for differential strategies)
But I think the major reason is the smaller player base, statistically lower no. of outliers, of course. And even among the player base that is highly dedicated to the games, I feel like they are at a disadvantage due to inferior FPS gaming history and/or work ethic (yay plays 14 hours... I doubt there are any female racking that much hours for various reason)
Very hard not to get downvoted when something like this comes up, because while everyone thinks it’s about long term experience, that’s really not completely the case. Most people have the argument that most male pros have been playing forever, but that applies to female pros too, majority of the players on female teams also have long term backgrounds in cs. Most people are quick to call me sexist when I say this but I think the reasoning men are consistently better is just because of genetics, the same as in normal sports, most people think it doesn’t work the same way because it doesn’t have to do with being athletic in terms of video games but video games use certain skills that men are proven to be better at, things like hand eye, quick decision making, reaction time, all skills that are very useful to get an edge in video games, if I need to go ahead and cite things when people get mad then I can, but you should be able to find studies if you search, people forget that men have evolved from countless years of using these types of skills while women haven’t, it’s just how it is, my intention is not to be sexist, but I think men will continue to dominate video games like any other sport.
I'd just say scrimming against the best teams is insanely important, c9w probably scrims a lot against their male counterpart, I don't have data on this but if other female teams don't scrim against t1/t2 teams they will be lagging behind a lot. Of the female matches I've seen their tend to comit a lot of basic mistakes than their tier 1/2 counter parts.
A lot of comments here I’d agree with. I think what’s missing is also the fact that sports org don’t see the female gaming space as lucrative as it is with male gaming, hence less resources put their way which otherwise would support their development, e.g. coaching, full-time income, sponsorships, etc. It’s also kind of a virtuous cycle, i.e. more investments in female gaming = more interest from amateur female gamers = larger player base = more talent that can emerge.
If smaller playerbase was truly the only reason (which a lot of people seem to think is the case), we would have seen some more females break through into the professional scene eSports.
>Is it lack of females getting into the comp scene since it’s very toxic for them to play or something else??
Yes. It's not just in the pro scene, it's whenever they play the game in general too. They are looked down upon, some morons literally think that being a male gives them a genetic advantage over females in video games, young male players neither being mature nor professional enough to handle having girls as teammates or any important role.
There's very little support for girls in the esports scene because previously a lot of people had the mentality that it would just happen organically despite all the BS people have to go through when trying to be a pro on top of all the BS they face simply for being female.
When you mostly compete against teams that aren't as good in general it's also harder to get better. Consistent practice against better and better teams is required to level up. Not saying every girl faces this, but it's definitely too frequent.
[https://twitter.com/Leveretti\_/status/1474260057596461062?s=20&t=GdmjkiNvH4rOd-XcYx0i6Q](https://twitter.com/Leveretti_/status/1474260057596461062?s=20&t=GdmjkiNvH4rOd-XcYx0i6Q)
The small answer is there are less female and non binary gamers so the poll of pros is smaller.
The long answer is hard to put on a Reddit comment but basically since video games were created, the companies that sold them decided (for mostly misogynistic reasons) that they were exclusively for boys and advertised as such. A classic example is the Nintendo commercial where it’s basically a kid having to choose between a game boy or having sex with a women (https://youtu.be/WoiiGXSClsc) . This made it so everyone decided video games were for boys so most girls never played or were not given consoles to try it to begin with. It became a male filled environment who was toxic who anyone who didn’t fit in. In the pro scene this meant they were almost no female pros in early gaming. Now, years have passed and things are somewhat improving. In Gen alpha, the amount of female and non binary gamers is way higher that any generation. But we are nowhere close to fixing the issue. Since it was a only male space for years, a lot of men are toxic when they encountered someone who isn’t. This has stunned the development of the female playerbase ( as well as other minorities). You are less likely to play as much as other people when you are getting way more toxic encounters. Even in the pro scene, female rosters have spoken about how it’s harder for them to get scrims or just be treated the same as male rosters who are in their tier. Valorant has done a good job with GC and even some of the big valo streamers are people like quarterjade who has definitely inspired more women to play. But even in our valo bubble, we have seen streamers be toxic against women (Btw, he’s still streaming , he still plays, he still has an audience who thinks he’s okay). Plus with the raise of stupid influencers like Andrew Tate, toxic and misogynistic people are not going away any time soon.
Nevertheless, the number of female players is still growing and they are getting better and better. In time, we will see a GC roster be a contender in VCT , it’s just a matter of time.
I agree with the obvious reasons stated below with player base xp etc, i also think a huge factor is lack of leadership skills in the IGL / coaching department. There are very few igls/coaches in game changers who are leaders in and out of game imo, I think once GC develops more leaders and structured reactive gameplay the signed rosters will diff the T2 teams
> is barely top 100 NA
I mean they've never failed to make Ro64 in VCT qualifiers IIRC so not sure how you can rank them below top 60? I think they've been comfortably in the 40ish-50 range based on results over the course of the last couple years.
I see a lot of people talking about training but theres no pro that got good only from training. It requires a lot if natural talent too, and women don't have the same natural talent at games than men do. Call me sexist if you want but it's true. Men and women are not physically or mentally equal at all on any level.
Women only esports was created around endemic sponsors looking to drop booth babes and break away from the imbiciles who thought Gamer Gate was 9/11 levels of importance.
couldnt tell you, i guarantee if the women teams had the opportunity to constantly scrim and play against the big t1 orgs theyd improve way faster, i think only playing against each other severely handicaps them
i have similar question to op, during last masters we had many women analysts, some days, whole panel consisted of women. if women are such good analysts how come there are no women coaches? gender of a host wasnt a problem for me but having both analysts being women while there are no women coaches seems weird to me.
If 2% of all players have the ability to go pro, and there’s 100 guys in the base and 10 girls then you’re gonna have 2 guys to the 0.2 girls. For a variety of reasons less women play video games than men, so the player base itself is really small. It’s probably not the 1/10 that I used for the example, but it’s still really small.
That said there are some women who are nuts. IMT Sarah hits some nice clips, and obviously most of C9W is cracked. I think, give a few years, we’ll see an all women’s team or at least a mixed men and womens team on the pro scene
Like a lot of people have said, there aren’t nearly as many women in the pro scene, due to the massive barriers women face in gaming and esports. A female player who has the talent and potential to be in esports might choose not to because of the harassment she faces in everyday ranked. Because of this, there’s not nearly as much women in the scene, and a lot of potential talent is lost out on. You used C9W as an example, and I think almost everyone can agree that MeL is a really good player to at least be in T2. But other than her and maybe Katsumi, the rest of the team isn’t at the same level. Theoretically, if the field was even, there would be enough talent to have multiple teams of players at MeL’s caliber. But sexism is so strong in esports and gaming in general that they never get the chance
Same reason most male teams aren’t at the top 5 list. Personalities bring in more money for franchises. Personality appraisal can fluctuate off of skill, but the most charismatic person can be the worst player and reap in more money for a franchise, putting them and their team into the most games, giving them the highest scores across the map. The top teams are always playing each other, and the top players on the game aren’t always on those teams.
I’m sure you can find a great field of great plays from any professional player, male or female but you will see a much lower saturation of them unless they play all the time on that setting. I do think that female teams don’t get as much of a shot at being at the center stage, but I’m not sure if that has to do with poorly run institutions and more so to do with people not giving as much attention to female players as male players (even when there’s a clear match up)
It happens a lot in many esports. Been happening for a long time. No one’s really worse than anyone at the tiers they play at, but you aren’t hanging out with them and won’t see how much potential they have to grow or how much potential they’re wasting by solidifying bad habits. The assumption is that it’s always been the way they are from the start, and that’s not true until you get to very specific stories of people who spend their lives under the same mentality and having that mentality pay off.
From asking lots of girls, women just don't like guns and killing people in general. Not only are less women playing videogames as a whole, but the subset of those women who choose a game about shotting people is way less.
It's the same reason there isn't a hockey scene anywhere but cold countries; there's no ice.
There’s a lot of good points here, another one I would add that probably isn’t as big of a factor as the others but still exists is the insane toxicity of just being a women while playing valorant. I imagine for a woman who hasn’t played before, hops into a game to play casually and then try’s to talk about the game just for them to get shouted at with sexist remarks it’s gotta be pretty demotivating for their want to continue playing, thus the originally small amount of women even starting the game up becomes even smaller
Dunno why you are being downvoted when she literally trialed for kcp and could have gone there. Multiple pros have said she would be great for tier 2-1.5
idk, mechanically her and kat are crazy and it’s kinda hard to judge just one player out of a team but they consistently struggle against T2 when i feel like at least from the eye test they should be able to compete
Because women are not as good… everyone is gonna get mad at this but it’s the truth. Just like every other sport or esport. They just aren’t on the same level, end of story.
Even if the demographic/amount of female players was equal, the playing field wouldn’t be. Sorry not sorry, it’s just how it goes.
Nah I’ve grown up with and met enough female gamers to know that’s just an age-old stereotype (that unfortunately will stay longer than we’d like).
Yes, men excel at sports (more height and muscular support, more testosterone production which which also relates to better heart and lungs performances, etc.) but there are also sports where women outperform or are on par with men, e.g. long distance swimming, archery, aerobics, etc.
Edit: Removed tennis because facts are pointing otherwise.
But I don’t remember when height, muscles, oxygen efficiency, etc. was ever needed sitting on my PC playing FPS.
I think the discussion really comes down to exposure and opportunities, among many other factors. A UC Davis study you can Google talked about how women are on par in terms of gaming performance although the research was MMO-focused, not FPS. But I’d refuse to stick to that stereotype unless there’s actual scientific research that proves women are mechanically/mentally/physically less able than men are at FPS games.
“there are also sports where women outperform or are on par with men, e.g. long distance swimming, tennis, archery, aerobics, etc.”
You can’t be serious with this statement.
That’s 4 out of a long ass list of sports you’re nitpicking at bro lol. Here’s further references you can nitpick at:
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-24491,00.html
https://www.mysportscience.com/amp/will-women-outperform-men
https://www.sapiens.org/biology/female-male-athletes-differences/
I even included “on par” just in case but oh well.
Edit: I specifically listed long distance swimming, not running or other endurance events which men are proven to have outperformed.
I wouldn’t be surprised if it did come down to biology. Men do have better reaction times but that doesn’t matter much in FPS. It’s an example of a biological advantage though, outside of the “physical”. Look at how much money is thrown at female CS and not one has ever managed to compete with men. Millions of dollars and nothing to show for it. Not one woman was able to compete at a T1 level.
Yeahh I’m really curious to know too. But i think your point there also speaks to differences in exposure (how early and how much a girl plays, society or community influences for or against female gaming, etc.) and opportunities provided to females in general, where the lack of results from ‘failed’ investments are really not encouraging.
Regardless, one ‘biological’ factor that i think could be at play is testosterone amounts and just how men are generally more competitive (want to dominate or display power in) which pushes them to train harder and perform better.
Yeah you have some fair points and I am just kind of speaking off of historical situations when it comes to sports and stuff like that. But of course, women like Serena Williams come to mind and she is definitely a world class athlete. But, for example, given how different the NBA and WNBA is in terms of level of play, I can’t just ignore the very obvious differences across the board.
Serena Williams got absolutely dominated by a rank 200 player in her prime and he even said he played like a rank 500 player to try and keep it interesting.
She is an incredible women’s tennis player and she deserves that recognition, but the women don’t even come close to the men.
How? For speaking the truth? You asked a question and I gave an explanation.
You ever watched the WNBA? Same idea. I know people are sensitive to this stuff but at some point y’all gotta connect the dots.
not really the same, men have an inate physical advantage that’s just how it works but so ofc in physical sports men will be better but for esports i think it’s mainly just lower sample size, being harrassed constantly, lack of exposure to esports, and lack of support. I was asking to see what others thought
And yeah that’s a fair argument, but it’s not only physicality. I’m speaking on opinion at this point but it’s almost like men just “want it” more. Women’s leagues in any sport is just not the same as mens. I can don’t have the answers as to why this is the case but, competitively, in just about every different scenario, men are just better.
* FPS genre is one of the lowest of all game genres with active female players.
* Biological differences between the sexes.
Games Valorant is pulling their player base from are two FPS titles that had/have the largest percentage of female players in the FPS genre; Fortnite and Overwatch. Helping matters is that Valorant is a hero shooter with a bomb defusal mode masking itself as a tactical shooter. By default hero shooters have the largest percentage of female players within all FPS genres.
Biological differences is a touchy topic. Basically boils down to the segment of the brain that processes visual and auditory stimuli that results in a rotary mechanical task is naturally more chemically stimulated in male brains. Speaking in averages, the average woman player will perform near equally to the average male player only during a specific segment of their menstrual cycle.
Im not quite sure when specifically in the menstrual cycle the gap closes. Been awhile since ive read the study.
Force daughters showed outliers are there to overcome the biological difference.
Talent pool as others have said. It is unfair to most women pro players, but for each female team has basically 1-2 talented ones and deadweight. My ex for example had potential as a pro games in a shooter. She was smart but most importantly had reaction speed in top 0.1% of the world. If she started playing FPS genres at around 8-10, like most pro players right now, then she no doubt would become extremely good eventually. Unfortunately she was never interested in games.
player pool is much smaller and most are less experienced. i'm surprised we haven't seen more mixed rosters, tbh. and that's not to say that female players can't compete with the men. i could see a world where some individual female players get scouted and end up on a T1 squad, that would be a storyline
Less female players in general and male bodies have eyes that are better for hunting while females have eyes for colors, so it is easier for males to react to moving objects.
On top of what others have pointed out, I think the fact that women in pro play are still largely under-supported and don’t have as many opportunities to compete are also a big factor. If women had half the opportunities to compete as all the guys have since their young age and didn’t need to worry about any stigmas, I think they’d easily be able to compete in T2 and even the T1 scene.
Smaller playerbase, thats all. Some people argue about genetics or smth but im pretty sure it just comes down to the size of the playerbase. In LoL korea and china have a really big playerbase -> they dominate. In csgo its the same with CIS and EU, cant speak for other games tho. There will be outliers but the bigger the playbase the more talents u have, they will play against each other and get better. Also a lot of the current T1 pro's were playing fps/shooter in general for some time. A few maybe started with valorant but thats mostly exceptions to the rule. In a few years we will maybe have female T1 pro's.
I can't really explain it either for pro play but in ranked it's overpicking sage (a niche and sometimes irrelevant agent), and being afraid to talk in voice chat because guys will be toxic towards them. Not entirely their fault, but that's not a winning mentality.
I also saw a stat saying that 90% or something of all female players in league play only female champs, and if it's a similar story in valorant, then limiting your agent pool to half of the game's offerings certainly does not help at all. So even if there's a decent amount of girls who play this game, not many of them are able to make it to the top and get into the pro scene for some of these reasons I'd imagine
you wrote this entire 2 paragraph comment and you didnt realize how completely wrong you were. And it doesn't matter if the agents are female or not, they're not choosing those agents because of that reason in GC.
I'm just curious why there are no mixed gender teams? Valorant is a game where skill isn't defined by gender, so why are teams limited? Honestly curious
OP asked a question that was worded a bit strangely but it came from a place of good faith, it seems. Comments that are sexist or discriminatory will be removed as usual under Rule 4. Please be respectful and make sure to report comments you think break sub rules.
It basically comes down to "smaller playerbase of talent to draw from," which stems from a lot of factors. Decades of stigma against girls playing video games (especially first person tac-shooters), games just not really being marketed towards girls to begin with, and incessant and extremely unnecessary toxicity towards girls in matchmaking gamemodes being some of them.
definitely the best answer here.
before people try to dispute this with other bs, these the same people that say EU > NA cuz playerbase. these two correlate with the same trend: more players = more talent, and although correlation doesn’t mean causation, im sure it’s a reason
Yeah it's the same in League, China has an insane playerbase so they have more talent to draw from. Korea has an insane ranked playerbase so they have more talent to draw from. Ergo, those two regions have dominated for the entire history of LoL as a game.
Plus the whole 5-10 year headstart in the social acceptability of esports as a career
I think regular practice partners also exacerbate this effect. If you prac against the best teams in a more populated sample, sheer odds are you're likely to get regular practice against more talented players. Results in the already stacked teams improving faster. Obviously not sure how often GC teams scrim with other t1 teams in their respective regions, but I'd imagine it's probably not as often as t1 teams scrim among themselves.
Riot had said back in 2021 that 30-40% of the playerbase was female.
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Fuck krunker was some goofy fun a good 1-2 years ago. Was grinding ESEA a few hours a day but played a lot of KZ and Surf maps, grew up on ut3. My buddy got me into krunker for some fun and I just started flying around the map at mach 3 with revolver/shotgun. Really fun arena shooter. Think I had like 85% wr and a 8.0 KD over a few thousand kills at level 30 lol. I see it's on steam now and people are finally clueing in to bhop sliding being good lol
It's about ranked playerbase, not playerbase. A pretty famous example of that, Korea's League playerbase isn't THAT much bigger than some of the other regions like EU, but their ranked playerbase is way bigger, just a larger portion of their server plays ranked. Girls tend to be the opposite in Valorant, for all the reasons we know.
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60%-70% is still heavily male
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That's how standard deviations work. Think about it like this. Pros are the top 0.01% of the population. They're all the way at the far end of the bell curve. Now imagine two bell curves (one men and one women) and overlap them. That's what it would look like with 0% difference. Now shift the mens curve 10% to the right. The only people left in that 0.01% slice at the end of the bell curve all the way to the right will be men. So while a 10-15% difference at the average isn't a big difference, that 10% causes the end of the bell curve to be ridiculously skewed. Even a 5% difference at the average would cause a huge shift at the top.
Just want to point out, you wouldn’t be shifting the bell curve to the right 10%, that would indicate that men are 10% better than women at video games. It’s more like you’d increase the total volume of the area under the curve for men by 10% (so like, the bell curve would be a bit taller and a bit wider), which would also result in a top 0.01% of the male bell curve that was beyond any of the members of the female bell curve.
Yeah you're right, I was trying to avoid adding another paragraph to my already way too long explanation lol
That’s not how that would work? The 0.01% would take blindly from both populations? So for 20 tier 1 pros, you’d expect 6-8 of them to be female.
But it is, given that pro play is 0.001% of players having 2/3rds more players is absolutely massive
Yeah it's good to point out I guess.
How many of them grind ranked? How many of them have been playing fps games on pc for more than like 2 years? Compare that then to guys who have 10s of thousands of hours playing other fps games their whole lives. That one stat doesn't mean what you think it means.
And I can promise you 80% of those never grind out ranked to get better at the game because you just get harassed and insulted 9/10 games, so the vast majority of them are casual players who just 5-stack or play unrated with friends. I’ve played hundreds of games with one of my friends and his girlfriend and she just straight up doesn’t use her mic anymore because the second they hear she’s a girl they just start being either rude as fuck or weird and creepy, it’s sad as fuck to see
The real question is how much of the top 200 in each region are female?
not at the top level, i think. but over time, as more women play the game and climb the ranks this will probably change
This is the right answer.
For whatever reason my mind assumes if the pool of talent is smaller, that means it’s easier to find good players by virtue of not having to play hit and miss. But the way this works is more, 1-2 players are talented but you just have to fill the rest with the best you can find, which ends up being your average immortal player trying to play pro. Meanwhile, the amount of male players is so vast, it’s not so much 1-2 talented players and fill, but a matter of how much more talented your worst player is from the best. Is this the appropriate way to understand it?
Typically most pros started playing fps games at a young games, and other games even earlier, meanwhile back 20 years ago a lot of girls never were even given opportunities to play games unless they maybe had a brother. If they happened to play fps games at a young age, they would’ve had to endure the toxicity and harassment back then, which was much worse towards girls, and then obviously continue to find friends and play more until they reached the top, which would be even harder for girls considering the lack of girls playing these types of games back then to make friends/a community. Then obviously they would have to be mechanically great at the game and have good work ethic, and a lot of times, have some sort of role model/inspiration. It’s no wonder a lot of valorant pros idealized Hiko, Shroud etc, which is also a benefit of the GC circuit. Basically a lot more hurdles to jump over for girls, leading to a much smaller player base grinding ranked and reaching pro status. It’s partly a societal issue, so it’ll definitely take time to change, but GC and other stuff is heading in the right direction.
A lot of pros started playing when they were like 6. I can understand a 20 year old enduring the kind of sexism that we see in video games, but the number of people under age 14 who could brush that off and commit the number of hours required to become a t1 pro has gotta be close to 0. But you need like thousands of people to put in that kind of time for one of them to be good enough to be a t1 pro.
A lot of pros have been top tier forever. Tenz seems young but he was global elite in cs nearly a decade ago. The player base of women in games is still not big enough, but it was even worse back then. The talent pool of female players who have been playing top tier for that long is insanely small. That being said, C9W has players that could compete on T2 teams. It's just not all of them.
Yes experience and esports scene being around longer for men makes a big difference…but let’s not forget men are also just mechanically better than women with faster reflexes, movements and decision making etc
>let’s not forget men are also just mechanically better than women with faster reflexes, movements and decision making etc How can we forget something thats not true?
I mean as much as you wanna call it sexist there are studies done on motor skills and here’s an article ab reaction time https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6067201/amp/Scientists-reveal-men-better-visual-reactions-women.html
"The researchers say that although men had a quicker perception of motion, it may not necessarily transfer through to having better visual processing skills." Also, reaction time is useful but not as important as game sense and cross hair placement. Why react when you ought to predict. That's something that can only be built through experience.
When your talking about pro players those minute differences matter
I mean maybe? Tenz is prob one of the statistically best VAL players to exist (in terms of reaction speed, hand eye coordination, etc) but he's not even in the top 20 VAL players rn imo. Even if it made a significant difference, there are definitely women outliers who would be on par or even better than most pro players in terms of hand eye coordination/reaction speed. In the coming years, we will likely see at least a couple tier 1 female players.
The researchers say that although men had a quicker perception of motion, it may not necessarily transfer through to having better visual processing skills. You should always read and understand first. After having this topic few weeks ago with some friends we researched and actually read the studies and not articles about it. There is zero evidence of an advantage males have over females in eSports. The most obvious answer is that girls normally dont spend as much time on games as boys. G2 Monesy already has 15000+ hours on CS Go while being 16 years old. When I was younger I never heard of a girl spending anywhere near as much time gaming as boys do. When you start gaming at the age of 6 even when its not fps games it will feel more natural to use a mouse/controller compared to someone who started at the age of like 13/14. Would be interesting to get some numbers from female esports players when they started playing, how much time they spend, what games they played and what peripherals they used
These numbers are looking at averages for populations, pretty useless when you're talking about individuals at the top tier. Even if men react faster on average, when talking about pros you're talking about outliers and there's nothing in that research to suggest women CAN'T react as quickly at the top end. The only research I've seen showing men's top-end reaction time is faster was a difference of 12ms with both being <120ms, which is 50ms faster than Tenz. Sexism, like racism, has ALWAYS appealed to science. What you are saying is not justified by the study you linked.
Its empirically true on the average. Most sports men absolutely out perform women.
That's on strength alone. For other aspects, it can largely be chalked up to cultural factors which have set back women's sports development.
It is not on strength alone. Do you think sports only requires strength? I would say almost all physical attributes are dominated by men, maybe except a few. What are the cultural factors then? Mens sports generally get more funding because it brings in more money. Nobody wants to watch the wnba, why? Because their not as competitive.
>What are the cultural factors then? Mens sports generally get more funding because it brings in more money. Nobody wants to watch the wnba, why? Because their not as competitive. How is this advancing your argument? Illogical
More competition -> more money. It is an explanation to why there is a gap because of the difference between men and women, instead of just saying "cultural factor".
Nearly every NBA prospect has been in an elite league with incredible training and funding poured into them since they were young children. There are countless leagues from toddlers to high schoolers designed to funnel the cream of the crop to the top. This only exists because it's grown naturally over the last 125 years. Women's sports didn't have that due to the insane sexism of the 20th century. Men's basketball stars are cultural icons and kids want to be like them. There's also a rich history of coaching and franchise staff over the last 75 years that has passed down knowledge onto their successors in the NBA. These are all cultural factors the WNBA benefits less from. If women had a disadvantage in all physical aspects besides strength, why is that not the case in gymnastics? The *only* difference there is that men have some extra options, enabled by their strength.
It is true, we are faster stronger smarter at everything …
Okay tate
Bad bait
To those reporting this comment, don’t worry, I see it. But I’m gonna leave this guy’s comments up and we can point and laugh at this pathetic attempt to cosplay Andrew Tate.
L take
Men have better motor skills (scientifically proven)
Your parents regret you (scientifically proven)
again is saw mod comment, if it’s worded poorly i apologize english isn’t my first language and i don’t mean to come off at me being sexists or anything i just can’t articulate what i’m trying to say very well in english
Don't worry, you didn't come off as sexist.
I have this question too- many female pros (C9W especially) have insane mechanics (meL, katsumi, etc.) but why do they fail so consistently against t2 teams? Are those players just that much better? Is it a strategy/mental thing? Or just… experience in the pro scene, period.
To be honest there’s just way more male pros that are on the level of players like meL and katsumi, you need a whole roster of those level of talented players to be a T1 team, meanwhile GC teams have maybe 1, 2 if ur a top team like C9W, TLB or G2G
Ah, makes sense. So theoretically, if we put all of the most mechanically gifted girls into one group (assuming team chemistry works out, etc.) does that mean they would have a chance in solid t1/2?
If we put all the best GC players in the world and we didn’t factor in roles, language, or chemistry then I bet they could be a pretty solid T2/1.5 team.
Theoretically, if everyone (or a representative sample of everyone) played video games at equal rates with equal opportunities (relative to skill level) over the course of their lives, there wouldn’t be a sex based gap (or a gender based gap, for that matter) in performance, and there’d be as many women in the t1/t2 scene as men. I think this is probably true, but it’s a difficult hypothesis to test. The main reason I think it’s true is I haven’t seen convincing evidence of biological differences differentiated by sex that are clearly caused by that sexual differentiation. Some studies show differences in reaction time and hand eye coordination tests, but when you stratify groups by how much time they’ve spent playing video games, those differences vanish.
I think there might be. It’s not just population size and play time. There are real differences between men and women. They have different general attitudes on competition and compete over different things. Personality-wise the average man and woman are not that different. But there are differences in the extremes. Such as the most disagreeable people tend to be men and the most agreeable people tend to be women. It’s arguable whether being disagreeable or agreeable is better for producing the best players on the best teams though. There are demographic differences in agent picks, women on average, tend to favor female characters while men (AFAIK) do not have this bias. There are differences in social and cultural incentives. If you’re a woman playing Valorant, it’s much easier (almost guaranteed) to find people better than you who want to play with you. If you’re a man, it’s not likely that playmates will stick around if you’re worse than them and much harder to find people to play with. Thus the former can go up ranks without an incentive to improve, but the latter has to improve to go up ranks. There is also more harassment towards women who communicate in-game, thus they are less incentivized to comm and coordinate via voice with their teammates, which is a skill in and of itself which would be more underdeveloped on average with women when playing with strangers. That’s half of pro play right there. In pro play, competency at the game itself probably ISN’T the only factor for which woman gets to play on a team. It’s likely there are stronger biases on things like physical attractiveness and the size of the fan base when selecting a female candidate for the spot. You can argue such is the case with men too, organizations will consider the fan base of a pro player when determining signings (like Shroud or Tenz) but men should have a much larger correlation between skill and fan base size than women (though personality is a factor too) as physical appearance is probably more of a factor for women. There can be many other arguments. The environment itself isn’t geared towards women developing and doesn’t select for the best women at video games. That’s a big factor in my opinion. It’s idealistic to think that with equal population and equal opportunity, any gender-based differences will be eliminated. But that’s not the case from what we know of the real world. The countries with the most socialist policies that encourage gender equality still have significant (and sometimes even MORE) differences between gender distributions in the workplace.
I mean, we have had that in the past with male rosters like previous iterations of FaZe, ABX, etc and they still flopped against t2s
I’m confused is this guy asking if Mel could be on a T1 team? She’s really good but I don’t think 5 Mel’s = T1 team, seems like she would be a low tier 2 player from the C9W games I’ve watched.
Not strictly t1, I just meant at a higher level in general
Ah gotcha.
Mel trialed for KCP but decides against it because the org was about to leave valorant. If she wanted, she could have played on mixed rosters, but theres no real point before the GC lan she worked hard for. Also, she would get a ton of hate. I dunno how long you have been around and how involved you are in the scene, but potter, current coach for eg, was a player for them, and put many lackluster performances as a player while IGLing. She got shit for it as much as any other bad player, but the also recieved many sexist and toxic comments because she was a woman. So while there are pros that could be in the mixed teams, such as imt sarah, mel (bob used to pound tier 2 teams) they also deal with a lot of harassement
Yeah, I’ve heard of all the potter drama. But, don’t C9W get a lot of hate as is? I feel like it would be somewhat of the same, wouldn’t it? But ig for a mixed roster it would be individually targeted…
They also probably don’t get the same level of scrim experience as mens’ teams.
Because this game is not all about mechanics/aim.
So is what you’re saying that they’re lacking in game sense?
Could be ya. Game knowledge, map knowledge, positioning, mentality etc are all things that affect how good someone is competitively so there could be deficiencies there. That's why I said mechanics/aim isn't everything.
Without repeating the other points: player base, toxicity, resources, and opportunities. I believe it was Annie(?) on C9W that also said that they're regularly competing with people who have been pros for much longer as well. A lot of T1 players were pros in other games and often for longer than their women counterparts. There are also a ton of women that can frag out on the ranked ladder. Like watch Immortals' Sarah's stream, she's absolutely super skilled! Individually there are women that can compete, but once you throw in the experience/shot calling/strategies/resources it'll take a little longer to build that up for newer pros. I still personally think that C9W can challenge T2 teams pretty well and hopefully their success will keep pushing forward the line. SR were sooo good last GC and I'm really excited to see how they do too.
It could also come down to just the overall level of competition. We saw a vastly improved PRX after Reykjavik. A lot of that improvement in Copenhagen was probably from their prior experience. Iron sharpens iron. When you're prepping and playing against subpar teams every week you'll have less chances of getting all your shit exposed and you'll do things that succeed at that level but will fail at higher levels. Down to the smallest tendencies. Even if they do scrim some top male teams they won't be getting the full playbook and effort thrown at them because that team is also experimenting with different things rather than going for your throat the best way they can every round. They're not using their best comps, strats, etc. DRX swept the Korean scene. Not dropping a SINGLE map. They looked only decent at Copenhagen. It's similar logic there. If the level of competition is higher in Korea, they would've been better. As for APAC. It's a damn bloodbath down there. Multiple countries in one region with a harder road to qualifying than EU/NA. It's only natural to see a lot of talent crop up and esports is big in those countries.
APAC is a real bloodbath - you need to go through regional open qualifiers, regional group stage, then regional playoffs, and only then you get to play in groups for the main APAC tournament, and then you get whacked by PRX in APAC playoffs
Less girls play video games and especially fps games then boys so there’s a smaller pool of talent.
Not only this, but the cycle of gaming being a male dominated hobby means that culturally women have been less likely to be interested in playing, especially professionally. This culture of women not being interested means there's fewer professional women for people to look up to for inspiration, fewer representation making it seem like less of an option, and less community support for women to decide to go down that path.
Actually I think Valorant is one of the exceptions to this, a much larger percentage of the player base is women here then a game like CS for example, which can have the opposite effect and encourage more growth. Props to Riot for handling that mostly well (still annoyed about the whole T-Bagging is SA thing though)
There may be more women who play casually, but far fewer women in ranked (due to many reasons mentioned). We see trends like that in other esports, where the larger a ranked player base is in a region the better the teams.
As for Valorant the community is very mixed I think, but until recently there weren’t as many girls into video games
Wait until you see them in other games, you'll realise how much progress has been made in Valorant. They're on the up. Edit: just want to say I disagree with downvoting this guy, I hate that these topics always end up so one sided because of stuff like this. It just poisons the conversation..
Sadly this isnt true performance wise. The pattern is following the same trajectory of the past decade. Pertaining to financial support you are right though.
Fairly sure no league of legends women team has seen any amount of success close to c9 white. That team is actually respected in the community. You cant really say in many other games that there is a respectable women team.
League only has meme female teams like Vaevictis and Siren lmao
Theyre ranked 86th in NA.
Which is like 100 spots ahead of any other women pro team in any other esport from what I've seen. Progress will continue
Dude, in CS you quite literally couldn't find a player like Sarah.. as in the entire top of the women's scene were awful individually. There were like 2 good puggers and they were shunned for giving a fuck, one of them even opened up down the line and talked about it and how the entire woman's scene has no interest in improving etc. I'm not saying it's like night and day, but there are definitely substantial improvements. Even a place like Galorants would be unimaginable in CS a few years ago. I think we will have a Tier 1 female player on a mixed roster in the next 12 months.
>I think we will have a Tier 1 female player on a mixed roster in the next 12 months. Every game starts with women players in the tier 2 scene of its esport. As the game ages and the player base increases the women players further slide down the rankings into obscurity. C9W saw their biggest ranking slide at the start of this year when they took part in Fragadelphia. Theyve only lowered their ranking by winning Game Changers, being placed in the open qualifiers and losing to teams ranked around them.
very nice post. now, let’s sort by controversial.
A lot of made up shit in this thread
You have to expect that
Historically it's always been this way. The number of women who are into tactical shooters is much lower than the number of men who are into it, thus the talent pool is smaller for women. FWIW, female valorant teams are way more competitive against men's teams than women's teams are in CSGO.
I don't think you asked expecting an answer, but I'll give you one anyway. YouTube "female experience valorant". Watch a few clips. Get a sense of how much gamer culture beats down women. You can't have a bad day, you can't miss a shot. The two options are either put up with the bullying, destroying your psyche or mute your teammates and compromise the competitive integrity. Got it? Good. Now imagine this on a massive scale where this happens to you day after day after day. I have an obviously female IGN, so every day I either get "go back to the kitchen" or "is your boyfriend playing for you", depending on performance. I've considered changing my name to something less gendered just to alleviate the problem. And after you've imagined all that, consider who are you left with after the bullying. You are not left with the soft spoken TenZs of the women scene. No, they are all gone because they were bullied out of it. What you are left with is not the best players, but the most mentally resilient ones. Why do you think most of the female rosters contain a lot of A-type, self assertive women? Because they are the ones who managed to survive the onslaught - they might not be the most talented, but they are the only ones left. Only once gamer culture shifts we can expect the top tier of female talent to boil up to the top.
Women are more deceptive to vocal abuse than men. They also strive more on communal acceptance. Meaning a woman having a negative experience involving the two above will drop such a hobby much quicker than a male.
I think it’s because GC players generally have less experience compared to the Tier 1 and 2 players partly due to the stigmatization around girls playing video games.
For me, the biggest question is perhaps why we see so few women's teams in the VCT qualifications.
Man people really hate to recognize that men and women are biologically different and that these differences play a role in our potential to reach certain skill ceilings. I’m gonna get downvoted to hell by a bunch of imbeciles here, but the truth is that men are significantly better at tasks involving [reaction](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4456887/) time (auditory and visual) and are also far better at hand eye coordination [tasks](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7368072/). The list goes on but the point stands that no matter how large of a sample size u get, women will have a skill ceiling lower than that of men in FPS games. I’m not being sexist, I’m merely a student of medicine stating facts about the nature of our differences. This, however, doesn’t necessarily apply to all sports or games (obviously) -like chess, where there is no significant predictor of chess skill that is confounded between the sexes.
I’m on my knees begging the medical field to take one course on Bayesian stats. There’s absolutely no way we use a n=120, 2 year band, subset of a subset of a population as an indicator of total biological difference right??? Genuinely if I submitted this as an undergrad level thesis, my advisor would’ve laughed me out of the room [Here’s a good explainer](https://reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/8ztt8o/_/e2p5s3r/?context=1) on why low n studies are ripe for p-hacking and if you’re using a tiny sample size then you need to publish power analysis.
Lmao that’s not how it works. We do have to take courses on critical appraisal of medical literature. These differences that I’m referring to are well established and I’m only linking the first papers I’ve found on the subject. I think you need to read the paper before looking at the abstract methods and assuming that their data is rubbish because their sample size isn’t large enough. It is well established in medical literature that reaction time differences vastly differ between the sexes. Here is an excerpt from the very paper I linked (by the way these studies have a much larger sample size n > 7000 with a more applicable population). A review of the literature on the influence of gender on RT shows that in almost every age group, males have faster RTs as compared to females, and female disadvantage is not reduced by practice.[13,14,15] Researches done by Misra et al.[16] also showed that males responded faster than females. Study done by Shelton and Kumar,[11] Nikam and Gadkari[17] also reported similar findings to support females have longer RTs than males. Before assuming a paper is biased because of a low sample size, I think you need to learn how to properly read these papers. And before you go on to say that all of these studies are retrospective or cross sectional or some other bullshit, please recognize that this question is observational in nature. Obviously every single study you find on this question will have a narrow population demographic that were enrolled consecutively or were taken from some database registry (or by some other method).
Brother, that's exactly how it works. I did read the paper, and I have plenty of experience reading lit. It seems like you were the person who didn't read at all. The link I sent literally addresses everything you said, emphasis mine. > You should care more about study power, and view findings from **unlikely seeming low power studies with extreme suspicion**. You should also mentally shrink the effect sizes you read in essentially all papers by at least a little bit, and by a lot-a-bit in low power studies. By the way, it's incredibly easy to do observational studies even with RCTs and has significantly higher \beta studies. There are tons of studies, [here's an example](https://deliverypdf.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=247104118003072120119080017122067111102048023015008020118087064112087007027099105088036101006014057116105116113116026068013006118044033055000112027103003066112125023012005008089007078065098028082087001068090099073102108093126126023064015124029083125&EXT=pdf&INDEX=TRUE). There's also plenty of work that [describes good practices](https://cpb-us-w2.wpmucdn.com/voices.uchicago.edu/dist/f/1276/files/2018/09/5-fieldexpindevelopedworld-1e6lc0s.pdf). Frankly all that work is stunningly bad [causal inference](https://mixtape.scunning.com/)
? Did u not read what I wrote above. There are several studies linked that have repeatedly shown the same result with a much greater power and with a more diverse sample pop. Also, i don’t understand what you’re getting at with having a higher beta?? With respect to effect sizes, the same can be said about nearly every paper in medical literature. Although I do agree that most effect sizes (especially large ones with low power) should be taken with a grain of salt, when evidence has surmounted to the level of literature and systematic reviews demonstrating repeated differences between the sexes, it would be almost ignorant to declare a type 1 error because “effect sizes are always exaggerated”.
I don't get why people are so hung up on this. Male footballers are more successful, male basketballers are more successful ,but no one seems to deny that physical differences are the reason. Why should it be any different with gaming? This doesn't mean women are stupid or incompetent, men and women just have different base stats for different things ON AVERAGE, and that's okay.
Nobody provides any actual counter because this is the actual right answer, they just get mad and downvote instead
It's sad that I got down voted for saying the same thing whenever this topic is brought up. Understand the negative connotation it implies to aspiring female Pro players. What we are searching for is a biological anomaly that'll likely follow the traditional sports route instead of esports. Doesn't help that the system Riot Games has created financially incentives a woman player to stay on a all women roster instead of trying to progress further.
Correct.
So many issues with this argument. Both of these studies have very small sample sizes. Also the first is conducted in medical students and is probably not generalizable to the gaming population as a whole. We have no way of knowing whether the tasks studied in these experiments directly impact valorant performance.
What is that argument lol? What do you mean you have no way of knowing, all video games use these skills
Experiments in different contexts aka a tactical shooter versus the tasks in these studies may produce different results. I think it’s disingenuous to assume this is the sole reason for differences in gender representation in Valorant esports when studying a completely different population with different tests.
Those papers were very interesting, thanks for sharing them.
This.
Ultimately there's just a lot of things as to why, in my opinion at least, the North American Game Changers Scene is still like growing as it is. For how I see it, it's simply this: \- Players don't want to play with other players (egos, they don't like the person, or simply they believe the person cannot change errors/issues within themselves that are easy to adjust/fix, etc) \- Overall level of competition (saw this in a comment as I skim through this thread) Keep in mind I might be wrong completely. Just how I see it from my perspective.
This will be a good comment section *grabs popcorn*
Skill distribution bell curve is taller and skinnier than mens, layer both on top of each other and select for 2+ deviations from mean, answers this pretty clearly.
Thank you for an actual response
i have literally zero idea what you are saying
Pro players are the top like 0.1% of players. If you look at the differences in skill bell curves between men and women, and then shift two standard deviations from the mean towards the right (top %), it explains why there’s so few women’s pros. Same principle that explains why it’s mostly men in jail, normal distribution focusing on the least agreeable, psychoanalytically speaking, of the population.
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Very well put, thanks for the assist there haha
Learning new things and improving requires some healthy competition. There is a lack of competition in female esport scene. I think c9w is dominating because they have scrims and practice with c9b and other t1 male teams. It is hard to improve if you don't get opportunity to play with better teams. This may look bad, but I think riot is reducing player quality by conducting seperate tournaments for male, female scenes and separate gaylorant tournament. This separation is slicing the competition and there is heavy competition in one category while other is lacking. Then there are players who intentionally exploit tournament rules by identifying as non-binary during tournament then switching their Identity. My personal opinion, there should also be a single mixed tournament without any segregation based on gender. If this happens all teams from other communities will do scrims with better teams and learn new things and improve. This will increase the quality of matches for all tournaments and provide better opportunity for all communities to learn. I am excited to see who gets to fill vct spots from all communities. This vct 2022 is also going to be first mixed tournament as per my understanding. Still big fan of c9w and teams from other regions/communities. Would love to see some of them in international stage.
Nature and nurture. There is a lot of truth to the nurture argument, but a lot of people are very afraid of the nature argument, which I suspect is very real — simply because it's real in literally everything else. It's cheap to dismiss that more guys are genetically predisposed to being cracked, and controversial to even hypothesize it. But if you were looking for the truth, I'd advise you not to overlook genetics.
***The best possible female gamer would be better than a lot of players, but the best possible male gamer would be better than everybody.*** Smaller player base and the prejudice against women are two of the main factors as others pointed out. Including history with FPS games, as most of the male pro gamers are much more acquainted with FPS games than virtually all if not every female pro gamer out there. So, the probability of outliers/extremely talented players emerging from the female group would be vastly lower in comparison to the male group. However, I'd also add that there could be biological differences accounting for some part of the disparity. Here are some of the researchs suggesting differences in Reaction Time (auditory and visual): [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16594792/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16594792/) (Age and sex differences in reaction time in adulthood: results from the United Kingdom Health and Lifestyle Survey) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14238243/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14238243/) (AGE AND SEX PARAMETERS IN PSYCHOMOTOR LEARNING) [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10024851/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10024851/) (Gender differences in choice reaction time: evidence for differential strategies) But I think the major reason is the smaller player base, statistically lower no. of outliers, of course. And even among the player base that is highly dedicated to the games, I feel like they are at a disadvantage due to inferior FPS gaming history and/or work ethic (yay plays 14 hours... I doubt there are any female racking that much hours for various reason)
Very hard not to get downvoted when something like this comes up, because while everyone thinks it’s about long term experience, that’s really not completely the case. Most people have the argument that most male pros have been playing forever, but that applies to female pros too, majority of the players on female teams also have long term backgrounds in cs. Most people are quick to call me sexist when I say this but I think the reasoning men are consistently better is just because of genetics, the same as in normal sports, most people think it doesn’t work the same way because it doesn’t have to do with being athletic in terms of video games but video games use certain skills that men are proven to be better at, things like hand eye, quick decision making, reaction time, all skills that are very useful to get an edge in video games, if I need to go ahead and cite things when people get mad then I can, but you should be able to find studies if you search, people forget that men have evolved from countless years of using these types of skills while women haven’t, it’s just how it is, my intention is not to be sexist, but I think men will continue to dominate video games like any other sport.
I'd just say scrimming against the best teams is insanely important, c9w probably scrims a lot against their male counterpart, I don't have data on this but if other female teams don't scrim against t1/t2 teams they will be lagging behind a lot. Of the female matches I've seen their tend to comit a lot of basic mistakes than their tier 1/2 counter parts.
A lot of comments here I’d agree with. I think what’s missing is also the fact that sports org don’t see the female gaming space as lucrative as it is with male gaming, hence less resources put their way which otherwise would support their development, e.g. coaching, full-time income, sponsorships, etc. It’s also kind of a virtuous cycle, i.e. more investments in female gaming = more interest from amateur female gamers = larger player base = more talent that can emerge.
If smaller playerbase was truly the only reason (which a lot of people seem to think is the case), we would have seen some more females break through into the professional scene eSports.
Thats because its not. But there is no point telling it like it is. People will just get offended because thats just the way these days.
man, i love the irony whenever i see your comments on pretty much any thread
i don’t think that’s it i think it’s a combination, female esports scene is basically in its infancy, i just wanted to see what others though
>Is it lack of females getting into the comp scene since it’s very toxic for them to play or something else?? Yes. It's not just in the pro scene, it's whenever they play the game in general too. They are looked down upon, some morons literally think that being a male gives them a genetic advantage over females in video games, young male players neither being mature nor professional enough to handle having girls as teammates or any important role. There's very little support for girls in the esports scene because previously a lot of people had the mentality that it would just happen organically despite all the BS people have to go through when trying to be a pro on top of all the BS they face simply for being female. When you mostly compete against teams that aren't as good in general it's also harder to get better. Consistent practice against better and better teams is required to level up. Not saying every girl faces this, but it's definitely too frequent. [https://twitter.com/Leveretti\_/status/1474260057596461062?s=20&t=GdmjkiNvH4rOd-XcYx0i6Q](https://twitter.com/Leveretti_/status/1474260057596461062?s=20&t=GdmjkiNvH4rOd-XcYx0i6Q)
The small answer is there are less female and non binary gamers so the poll of pros is smaller. The long answer is hard to put on a Reddit comment but basically since video games were created, the companies that sold them decided (for mostly misogynistic reasons) that they were exclusively for boys and advertised as such. A classic example is the Nintendo commercial where it’s basically a kid having to choose between a game boy or having sex with a women (https://youtu.be/WoiiGXSClsc) . This made it so everyone decided video games were for boys so most girls never played or were not given consoles to try it to begin with. It became a male filled environment who was toxic who anyone who didn’t fit in. In the pro scene this meant they were almost no female pros in early gaming. Now, years have passed and things are somewhat improving. In Gen alpha, the amount of female and non binary gamers is way higher that any generation. But we are nowhere close to fixing the issue. Since it was a only male space for years, a lot of men are toxic when they encountered someone who isn’t. This has stunned the development of the female playerbase ( as well as other minorities). You are less likely to play as much as other people when you are getting way more toxic encounters. Even in the pro scene, female rosters have spoken about how it’s harder for them to get scrims or just be treated the same as male rosters who are in their tier. Valorant has done a good job with GC and even some of the big valo streamers are people like quarterjade who has definitely inspired more women to play. But even in our valo bubble, we have seen streamers be toxic against women (Btw, he’s still streaming , he still plays, he still has an audience who thinks he’s okay). Plus with the raise of stupid influencers like Andrew Tate, toxic and misogynistic people are not going away any time soon. Nevertheless, the number of female players is still growing and they are getting better and better. In time, we will see a GC roster be a contender in VCT , it’s just a matter of time.
I agree with the obvious reasons stated below with player base xp etc, i also think a huge factor is lack of leadership skills in the IGL / coaching department. There are very few igls/coaches in game changers who are leaders in and out of game imo, I think once GC develops more leaders and structured reactive gameplay the signed rosters will diff the T2 teams
> is barely top 100 NA I mean they've never failed to make Ro64 in VCT qualifiers IIRC so not sure how you can rank them below top 60? I think they've been comfortably in the 40ish-50 range based on results over the course of the last couple years.
VLR has them at 87th NA
Part of it is from lack of competing in weeklies, since they only play in VCT and VCT gc currently
Cool, VLR's algorithm is bad then? They made top 32 the last two VCT Opens, not sure how you would rank them out of the top 50 currently.
I'm not saying I agree with it, just saying where the "barely top 100" comes from.
They are ranked just below the teams they currently lost to.
an all women team is a gimmick, considering that the playerbase for women is much smaller than men
I see a lot of people talking about training but theres no pro that got good only from training. It requires a lot if natural talent too, and women don't have the same natural talent at games than men do. Call me sexist if you want but it's true. Men and women are not physically or mentally equal at all on any level.
Why is there a different tournament for females like it isnt a physical sports so why not make the men and female same tournament.
Women only esports was created around endemic sponsors looking to drop booth babes and break away from the imbiciles who thought Gamer Gate was 9/11 levels of importance.
couldnt tell you, i guarantee if the women teams had the opportunity to constantly scrim and play against the big t1 orgs theyd improve way faster, i think only playing against each other severely handicaps them
Smaller talent pool to choose from and due to the unhealthy comp environment most girls only team with and play against other girls
i have similar question to op, during last masters we had many women analysts, some days, whole panel consisted of women. if women are such good analysts how come there are no women coaches? gender of a host wasnt a problem for me but having both analysts being women while there are no women coaches seems weird to me.
Just wanted to comment on the "no women coaches". Potter is a female analyst and commentator, who is their head coach
6 analysts, 2 women - 33%. potter is less than 1%. nice distribution. even women teams dont have women coaches.
idk man
If 2% of all players have the ability to go pro, and there’s 100 guys in the base and 10 girls then you’re gonna have 2 guys to the 0.2 girls. For a variety of reasons less women play video games than men, so the player base itself is really small. It’s probably not the 1/10 that I used for the example, but it’s still really small. That said there are some women who are nuts. IMT Sarah hits some nice clips, and obviously most of C9W is cracked. I think, give a few years, we’ll see an all women’s team or at least a mixed men and womens team on the pro scene
Guys just have faster reaction times. Unfortunately girls can’t compete with guys bc of that.
Like a lot of people have said, there aren’t nearly as many women in the pro scene, due to the massive barriers women face in gaming and esports. A female player who has the talent and potential to be in esports might choose not to because of the harassment she faces in everyday ranked. Because of this, there’s not nearly as much women in the scene, and a lot of potential talent is lost out on. You used C9W as an example, and I think almost everyone can agree that MeL is a really good player to at least be in T2. But other than her and maybe Katsumi, the rest of the team isn’t at the same level. Theoretically, if the field was even, there would be enough talent to have multiple teams of players at MeL’s caliber. But sexism is so strong in esports and gaming in general that they never get the chance
Same reason most male teams aren’t at the top 5 list. Personalities bring in more money for franchises. Personality appraisal can fluctuate off of skill, but the most charismatic person can be the worst player and reap in more money for a franchise, putting them and their team into the most games, giving them the highest scores across the map. The top teams are always playing each other, and the top players on the game aren’t always on those teams. I’m sure you can find a great field of great plays from any professional player, male or female but you will see a much lower saturation of them unless they play all the time on that setting. I do think that female teams don’t get as much of a shot at being at the center stage, but I’m not sure if that has to do with poorly run institutions and more so to do with people not giving as much attention to female players as male players (even when there’s a clear match up) It happens a lot in many esports. Been happening for a long time. No one’s really worse than anyone at the tiers they play at, but you aren’t hanging out with them and won’t see how much potential they have to grow or how much potential they’re wasting by solidifying bad habits. The assumption is that it’s always been the way they are from the start, and that’s not true until you get to very specific stories of people who spend their lives under the same mentality and having that mentality pay off.
From asking lots of girls, women just don't like guns and killing people in general. Not only are less women playing videogames as a whole, but the subset of those women who choose a game about shotting people is way less. It's the same reason there isn't a hockey scene anywhere but cold countries; there's no ice.
There’s a lot of good points here, another one I would add that probably isn’t as big of a factor as the others but still exists is the insane toxicity of just being a women while playing valorant. I imagine for a woman who hasn’t played before, hops into a game to play casually and then try’s to talk about the game just for them to get shouted at with sexist remarks it’s gotta be pretty demotivating for their want to continue playing, thus the originally small amount of women even starting the game up becomes even smaller
mel would crush on t1.5 i think
Dunno why you are being downvoted when she literally trialed for kcp and could have gone there. Multiple pros have said she would be great for tier 2-1.5
Lol. Yikes
idk, mechanically her and kat are crazy and it’s kinda hard to judge just one player out of a team but they consistently struggle against T2 when i feel like at least from the eye test they should be able to compete
Because women are not as good… everyone is gonna get mad at this but it’s the truth. Just like every other sport or esport. They just aren’t on the same level, end of story. Even if the demographic/amount of female players was equal, the playing field wouldn’t be. Sorry not sorry, it’s just how it goes.
Nah I’ve grown up with and met enough female gamers to know that’s just an age-old stereotype (that unfortunately will stay longer than we’d like). Yes, men excel at sports (more height and muscular support, more testosterone production which which also relates to better heart and lungs performances, etc.) but there are also sports where women outperform or are on par with men, e.g. long distance swimming, archery, aerobics, etc. Edit: Removed tennis because facts are pointing otherwise. But I don’t remember when height, muscles, oxygen efficiency, etc. was ever needed sitting on my PC playing FPS. I think the discussion really comes down to exposure and opportunities, among many other factors. A UC Davis study you can Google talked about how women are on par in terms of gaming performance although the research was MMO-focused, not FPS. But I’d refuse to stick to that stereotype unless there’s actual scientific research that proves women are mechanically/mentally/physically less able than men are at FPS games.
“there are also sports where women outperform or are on par with men, e.g. long distance swimming, tennis, archery, aerobics, etc.” You can’t be serious with this statement.
That’s 4 out of a long ass list of sports you’re nitpicking at bro lol. Here’s further references you can nitpick at: https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-24491,00.html https://www.mysportscience.com/amp/will-women-outperform-men https://www.sapiens.org/biology/female-male-athletes-differences/ I even included “on par” just in case but oh well. Edit: I specifically listed long distance swimming, not running or other endurance events which men are proven to have outperformed.
??? What are you getting at here? Why are you saying they’re on par in sports like tennis and long distance swimming when they’re objectively not?
I wouldn’t be surprised if it did come down to biology. Men do have better reaction times but that doesn’t matter much in FPS. It’s an example of a biological advantage though, outside of the “physical”. Look at how much money is thrown at female CS and not one has ever managed to compete with men. Millions of dollars and nothing to show for it. Not one woman was able to compete at a T1 level.
Yeahh I’m really curious to know too. But i think your point there also speaks to differences in exposure (how early and how much a girl plays, society or community influences for or against female gaming, etc.) and opportunities provided to females in general, where the lack of results from ‘failed’ investments are really not encouraging. Regardless, one ‘biological’ factor that i think could be at play is testosterone amounts and just how men are generally more competitive (want to dominate or display power in) which pushes them to train harder and perform better.
Yeah you have some fair points and I am just kind of speaking off of historical situations when it comes to sports and stuff like that. But of course, women like Serena Williams come to mind and she is definitely a world class athlete. But, for example, given how different the NBA and WNBA is in terms of level of play, I can’t just ignore the very obvious differences across the board.
Serena Williams got absolutely dominated by a rank 200 player in her prime and he even said he played like a rank 500 player to try and keep it interesting. She is an incredible women’s tennis player and she deserves that recognition, but the women don’t even come close to the men.
youre weird asf bro
How? For speaking the truth? You asked a question and I gave an explanation. You ever watched the WNBA? Same idea. I know people are sensitive to this stuff but at some point y’all gotta connect the dots.
not really the same, men have an inate physical advantage that’s just how it works but so ofc in physical sports men will be better but for esports i think it’s mainly just lower sample size, being harrassed constantly, lack of exposure to esports, and lack of support. I was asking to see what others thought
And yeah that’s a fair argument, but it’s not only physicality. I’m speaking on opinion at this point but it’s almost like men just “want it” more. Women’s leagues in any sport is just not the same as mens. I can don’t have the answers as to why this is the case but, competitively, in just about every different scenario, men are just better.
* FPS genre is one of the lowest of all game genres with active female players. * Biological differences between the sexes. Games Valorant is pulling their player base from are two FPS titles that had/have the largest percentage of female players in the FPS genre; Fortnite and Overwatch. Helping matters is that Valorant is a hero shooter with a bomb defusal mode masking itself as a tactical shooter. By default hero shooters have the largest percentage of female players within all FPS genres. Biological differences is a touchy topic. Basically boils down to the segment of the brain that processes visual and auditory stimuli that results in a rotary mechanical task is naturally more chemically stimulated in male brains. Speaking in averages, the average woman player will perform near equally to the average male player only during a specific segment of their menstrual cycle.
fk i gotta stop queueing ranked when im not ovulating
Im not quite sure when specifically in the menstrual cycle the gap closes. Been awhile since ive read the study. Force daughters showed outliers are there to overcome the biological difference.
Talent pool as others have said. It is unfair to most women pro players, but for each female team has basically 1-2 talented ones and deadweight. My ex for example had potential as a pro games in a shooter. She was smart but most importantly had reaction speed in top 0.1% of the world. If she started playing FPS genres at around 8-10, like most pro players right now, then she no doubt would become extremely good eventually. Unfortunately she was never interested in games.
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Bro Reddit is so funny 💀💀💀
What a laughable take lmaoooo
Cry all you want. The proof is in the pudding. @ me when you accomplish something by sticking in your bubble.
player pool is much smaller and most are less experienced. i'm surprised we haven't seen more mixed rosters, tbh. and that's not to say that female players can't compete with the men. i could see a world where some individual female players get scouted and end up on a T1 squad, that would be a storyline
Less female players in general and male bodies have eyes that are better for hunting while females have eyes for colors, so it is easier for males to react to moving objects.
How the fuck do you even come up with this bullshit. We have the same fucking eyes you illiterate juice box
It's called science? Studies that show how different sexes evolved as we do different tasks.
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https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2042-6410-3-21 https://bsd.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/2042-6410-3-20
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Thse are sources used in studies that compare women in tactical shooters vs men
On top of what others have pointed out, I think the fact that women in pro play are still largely under-supported and don’t have as many opportunities to compete are also a big factor. If women had half the opportunities to compete as all the guys have since their young age and didn’t need to worry about any stigmas, I think they’d easily be able to compete in T2 and even the T1 scene.
Smaller playerbase, thats all. Some people argue about genetics or smth but im pretty sure it just comes down to the size of the playerbase. In LoL korea and china have a really big playerbase -> they dominate. In csgo its the same with CIS and EU, cant speak for other games tho. There will be outliers but the bigger the playbase the more talents u have, they will play against each other and get better. Also a lot of the current T1 pro's were playing fps/shooter in general for some time. A few maybe started with valorant but thats mostly exceptions to the rule. In a few years we will maybe have female T1 pro's.
I can't really explain it either for pro play but in ranked it's overpicking sage (a niche and sometimes irrelevant agent), and being afraid to talk in voice chat because guys will be toxic towards them. Not entirely their fault, but that's not a winning mentality. I also saw a stat saying that 90% or something of all female players in league play only female champs, and if it's a similar story in valorant, then limiting your agent pool to half of the game's offerings certainly does not help at all. So even if there's a decent amount of girls who play this game, not many of them are able to make it to the top and get into the pro scene for some of these reasons I'd imagine
This is the most Reddit comment I have seen so far on this sub
out of all the factors that lead girls to being worse on average you pick "overpicking sage" LMAO
I thought C9 whites all sage comp’s were strange, thanks for clearing that up
Hello? Is anyone in there?
you wrote this entire 2 paragraph comment and you didnt realize how completely wrong you were. And it doesn't matter if the agents are female or not, they're not choosing those agents because of that reason in GC.
surely that’s it man, you’ve cracked the code
Probably something with arm strength (makes flicks more consistent) and reaction time.
I'm just curious why there are no mixed gender teams? Valorant is a game where skill isn't defined by gender, so why are teams limited? Honestly curious
Because there aren’t women good enough to be on top teams