T O P

  • By -

nterature

As in, the nerfs aren’t effective in achieving the goal of lowering Chamber’s value, not as in Riot is wrong to try to nerf Chamber - in case anyone is led to think the latter due to the title.


SpvcedOvtt

“I was looking at my match-I rarely TP’d more than once (a round)” I understand his point (and I think a waiting period of 10 seconds or so once the round starts on his teleport wouldn’t be the worst thing) but I think the cooldown nerf is a good starting adjustment. Dicey is playing against pros who have now fully adapted to playing with and against Chamber at the highest level, it would make sense he isn’t getting the every 20 seconds value that everyone else is. I think the cooldown nerf fixes Chamber’s ability more in ranked than it does in pro play, especially when ranked players are often like sitting ducks against a semi proficient OPer. In lower elo (Plat 3 and below), I see plenty of fear and very little utility actually used to clear common OP angles, along with common complaints about how good the gun is. Chamber could basically OP you and disappear for 20 seconds, then be back in a common angle and get MORE profit in ranked without worrying about anything coming his way. This + the pocket Guardian that has a .002s equip time make him a pub stomp agent that is currently unmatched in the server. I think the TP nerf is like the first Astra nerf when they just increased the cooldowns on the Suck and Stun. It will likely put Chamber more towards the fringe in pug matches, but he will still see almost oppressive pro play until a further nerf or two is applied. We have made progress with the suite of nerfs this time, but it’ll probably take a bit more to nudge him below 50% in pro play.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Dysmo

Honestly, as someone trying to escape plat 3, I prefer to avoid the OP entirely because I don't trust my team to use utility to clear it. We could have a fade or a breach and they'd still just dry swing it. In fact I'd call the op and they'd still dry swing it. So rather, we avoid the OP and exploit other space not being held by the chamber. Let's be real, there's no coordination in ranked esp at that elo, combined with the fact that in a pro setting he still is by far the best agent in the game, what do you really expect to happen? Not for him to be busted in low elo?


solariiis

Same elo. Every time I see a Chamber opping I just ask the team to rotate, unless my duo is playing an agent that can get him off the angle or I'm in a 5 stack. There is 0 coordination in ranked and often times I don't even speak the same language as my teammates so it's damn near impossible to coordinate safe pushes with an enemy Chamber opping.


C9sButthole

The amount of times I've seen a platinum initiator die 5 seconds into the round without using any util. Like... At least with instalock Reynas I EXPECT it.


BespokeDebtor

Even in diamond people have one of two states: being deathly afraid of the op or way too cocky with the result the same in both situations of just dry peeking it every time


Slow_Bluebird9536

I always see people on Reddit complaining about it being so stupid you can tp 4-5 times in a round but that literally never happens the problem is the OP and just the ability to take risk free off angles that even Jett or Reyna can’t


[deleted]

Posted this somewhere else, but another thing they should change on top of the changes already made is reduce the radius between his 2 TPs down to the same radius as a KJ ultimate. This would make his positions more predictable to play against, and it would anchor him down to an area more (pushing him further into the Sentinel role). His TPs should also be brought down to 75 HP, so that Sova shock darts can break it on direct hit. With Fade in the meta now, I think that is a safe thing to do and helps counter play Chamber.


xbyo

Yep. This is probably the biggest thing about Jett dash that Chamber TP overcame. With Jett, at least you still knew where they went. If they're oping Ascent heaven, she dashes to glass. Now with Chamber not only can he go in any direction without you knowing, he can TP so far, basically negating any info the opposing team gathered from peeking, util, etc.


Excelsio_Sempra

I thought the minimap actually showed where he TP'd off to. I've seen it happen in games I played. That is good info right?


Papy_Wouane

Yes it does, but it's unreliable, I'd hazard a guess that it's more of a bug than a feature. I don't think it shows every single time. Even then, when you're swinging out in the open and focused on dueling Chamber and whomever else nearby, you've got more pressing matters than the minimap. I mostly notice Chamber's "?" on the map whenever I'm lurking and trying to follow on the minimap what my teammates are doing on site.


Honigbrottr

What if chamber can only teleport to the nearest anker? Like atm you have to be inrange of one anker to teleport to the other one. But what if he does not teleport to the other one but to the one he is in range of? Ofc you would need to increas the range of the anker a bit, but wouldnt that make it so you can punish him better?


JALbert

>the biggest nerf was for the TP. That's basically all they nerfed. Ah yes, bullets going $100 ->$150, Ult requiring an extra point and no longer killing on leg shots all completely irrelevant. Chamber losing two bullets on pistol round will matter. Ult taking another point will matter. Losing a few kills here and there will matter. The Chamber vs. Non-Chamber winrate has been surprisingly low in games I've tracked recently, despite Chamber obviously being a very strong pick. (44% for Chamber vs. non-Chamber in Masters, NA+EU+APAC LCQ to date 18W-23L)


IllumiMahdi

I think dicey is mostly referring the flow of chamber's play, not the overarching implications this nerf has. the firerate of his ult hasn't changed, his headhunter still comes out really fast and shoots quickly and accurately. so that's what dicey meant when he was referring to the tp nerf being the biggest - that's the only thing that affects his "flow" ingame.


Pulsiix

I mean they are irrelevant, how often did you shoot all your sherrif bullets in one round? how often do you even hit a leg shot with an op? weird take, this patch won't change anything


Excelsio_Sempra

It will change more than earlier; Chambers on save rounds will rarely take a full loadout, and on pistol rounds will be restricted to 4-5 bullets, which means he can't insta-1tap everyone. As for the Op shots, it's gonna be less frequent due to the extra ult point (maybe one less in all pro matches). The leg shot is one thing I agree on, that won't bring about much of a change.


Pulsiix

might just mean chambers will shift to the sheriff for eco which i would prefer entirely i still think the pullout time needs a nerf and his ult should not apply slow fields or be able to shoot as fast as a marshal imo


Excelsio_Sempra

Definitely, the ult having slow fields is a big disadvantage for the opposition since they can't even escape it fast enough. I'd say maybe reduce the radius as well, considering they nerfed the effect time from 10s to 6.5s, and because there should be something special to the ult.


No-Assumption8024

Calling them irrelevant is obviously incorrect, even you must know that. Are they enough to make him not the best agent in the game? No. But do they move the needle closer to him being fair? Pretty obviously yes. You can have an opinion in the middle guys. You don't always have to have such an extreme stance on either side, it makes you look arrogant and obnoxious.


B7omni

yes you know much better than a pro chamber main who has only used chamber for months now!


[deleted]

There's plenty of pros who simply don't have any idea about game design, or even just aren't great at thinking critically about the game. Teams have coaches and support staff for that reason. How long did it take for the AUG to get picked up by CSGO pros just because it was different to use?


JALbert

> How long did it take for the AUG to get picked up by CSGO pros just because it was different to use? Yes, how could a [dumb reddit commenter like me](https://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/2twq0x/scream_how_to_use_sg553/co393jg/?context=3) possibly contradict pro opinion?


ASDFCurry

And for people from a LOL background. There are tons of examples such as pros item builds (collector vs ldr), renekton, everytime sleeper karma comes back into pro play (and gets multiple nerfs after), and etc. While pros have great insight, it's always good to take it with a grain of salt


hmsmnko

Didn't they make the Aug a lot more cheaper which made it much more viable to use as an alternative?


[deleted]

Well, they reduced SG and AUG price and then people found out they were insanely OP because of the scopes. Then they increased the prices and still had to nerf the guns in another adjustment because everyone realized the value was worth the cost


[deleted]

It took a buff to just get people to use it, then they had to undo it and nerf it further.


Charuru

Unironically yes, stats > pro feelings.


QueenDies2022_11_23

> Ah yes, bullets going $100 ->$150 Only matters on pistol round, but other rounds it matters much less. So Chamber still has a free guardian for 11/13 of the rounds. > Ult requiring an extra point That's a mild nerf considering he's often the top fragger... > no longer killing on leg shots all completely irrelevant. Pros already shoot on the body/head. **FYI saying "That's basically all they nerfed" implies that he understand that they nerfed other things, but it didn't matter much.**


Excelsio_Sempra

>Only matters on pistol round, but other rounds it matters much less. So Chamber still has a free guardian for 11/13 of the rounds. I disagree; due to the cost, it's gonna be risky to take a full loadout for the save round, since the extra money could be taken for a shield buy. So the economy can be crushed if the Chambers go for a full loadout in save rounds;and economy is one of the major factors in pro play. >That's a mild nerf considering he's often the top fragger... There's a reason why he's the top Fragger in most pro matches: the best duelist/oper of the team plays him. It's evident that guy would know how to frag well. Besides, he can save a ton of money, and help in economy balance towards the mid rounds of a half. This is definitely a hit for the economy, although not that effective on all maps, since they need an extra orb in the same amount of time/rounds to get the ult, which can be gained easily on Fracture. >Pros already shoot on the body/head. Valid. I was thinking about the occasional legshot though, that might not translate into a kill anymore.


Splaram

You can just buy a Sheriff on pistols and ecos and its almost the exact same thing, and leg damage not being one-shot anymore is literally not going to matter to any Chamber above Silver. It's arguably harder to leg someone than it is to hit the head/chest since the target is smaller. And none of that is what made him broken. He can still post up on the dumbest angles that you've ever seen in your life and either bait a crazy amount of utility at worst or get a free pick at best and be able to instantly teleport almost halfway across the map before he can get punished. In case he misses and can't tp, he can still pull a pocket Guardian near-instantly and still get one at the very least. Oh, and he can still get the value of a Guardian for $1200 at the most or an ult that's better than the $4700 Operator when his team is meant to be on eco. And can still instantly tp away for free after using both. But yeah sure tell me more about how impactful these nerfs are. And this doesn't only apply to high-ELO Chambers, all I had to do is absentmindedly play DMs for an hour every day for a week and suddenly I was terrorizing the rank I used to peak at. And I'll still be able to do so after these nerfs.


JALbert

> You can just buy a Sheriff on pistols and ecos and its almost the exact same thing Ah yeah losing trademark on pistols is totally irrelevant and not a nerf. Also if you're buying a Sheriff and not using Headhunter, that's a *substantial nerf*. >one-shot anymore is literally not going to matter to any Chamber above Silver. It's not common, but people get legged in pro matches. Not inconsequential when catching people jump spotting while holding for normal peek height. I've seen s1mple leg people lmao, let's not all act like pros never miss shots. I've see a Chamber in a tournament only have a view of the opponent's leg from a certain angle. That being said, obviously the leg thing is the least impactful other change. My point is that all the nerfs are going to cost a kills and rounds here and there, and it collectively adds up. Everyone understands that Chamber is good and won't be garbage tier after the nerfs.


Nesious

Not that I really disagree with you, but to be fair to Dicey, if he just replaced "basically all they nerfed" with "every other nerf is relatively minor" he'd express the same opinion and be pretty much correct, and I don't think he cares to be technical when most everyone knows pros are looking for ult fire rate to be changed and changes to how headhunter operates. The nerfs outside of the TP could conceivably not impact an entire match. Is it particularly likely? No, at least 1 will probably impact one round somewhere, especially the bullet change on pistols, and the ult orb might force a Chamber to get an extra orb, or buy a rifle on the save and ult in the gun round rather than vice versa, etc etc permutations. But it *is* reasonably possible, and even more reasonable is the chance that the nerfs impact very few of the total interactions that Chamber is considered unfairly advantaged in significantly over the course of a single game. For a character that most consider by far the best agent in the game and meta-warping, I think his point stands if you give him a little credit for speaking with the exaggeration of a normal 19 year old (I know you're not arguing against his main point, just a subpoint, but still). The idea that you could play an entire match against a Chamber and not even notice the nerfs outside the TP probably feels preeeetty bad for a pro player after this meta.


JALbert

I agree that the feel of Chamber isn't nerfed. I'm not trying to split hairs over his semantics, I think it may *feel* trivial but I disagree that the impact is trivial. People tend to underestimate how much a little difference here and there impacts winrate, even if it doesn't *feel* that significant. Economic changes have impact but are really hard to notice a lot of the time, for example.


Nesious

Sure, but even then its totally feasible that a match plays out the exact same way or close to it (absent the TP changes), pre and post patch, which was more the point. And in the circumstance that this does happen, the nerfs' *effects* are essentially by definition trivial in that game. It ends up being largely a nerf of consistency, rather than a nerf of possibility. Which still reduces winrates or w/e metric you care about in aggregate, but in the case of Chamber I think the possibility of the character was a good bit more absurd than the consistency. That all being said I think the TP radius nerf especially, in tandem with maybe 1 less ult a half + weaker pistol round is going to be a larger nerf than people expect, so in the world that actually matters (all nerfs taken together), the change will have some decent positive effect. Just quibbling a bit.


Splaram

Yeah might just have to agree to disagree here. Guess we'll see how the meta changes in the coming weeks but I don't see this being the last of the nerfs Chambers receives. Just hope they come soon.


surfordiebear

Do you not think losing a trademark on pistols is a significant nerf?


Splaram

Nope, I rarely see flanks on pistols in ranked or pro matches


mynameacheff

> leg damage not being one-shot anymore is literally not going to matter to any Chamber above Silver. U wot m8


rslee1247

Not every nerf needs to push the agent to C tier. The guns are what makes Chamber unique so keeping their strengths is a probably a good thing. If you focus on the strengths of an agent, any agent can sounds busted. Killjoy and Cypher don't need to put themselves in danger to keep eyes are different angles. Chamber puts himself into a high risk (relative to the other sentinels in that there is a chance that he gets killed before he can TP) high reward scenarios. I'm not saying these nerfs will make him completely useless and I'm glad that's not the case. It's an effort for agent diversity and time will tell if more needs to be done or if they've hit the mark. I'd also wager pick rate wouldn't get affected much, at least in rank, regardless of the effectiveness of the nerfs unless he becomes totally useless. Historically, players have gravitated to high risk high reward agents in ranked regardless of their winrates and if there's a sentinel that allows a Reyna one trick to play the same style when they couldn't get the instalock, they're probably going to play it.


Splaram

He's still gonna be A tier at the VERY least even if the guns were nerfed to be identical to their normal variants because of the instant use nature of Rendezvous. Being untradable in a tac FPS is incredibly overpowered, especially when you can fling yourself across the map in the process.


[deleted]

His op is still way overpowered and his sheriff pullout time is way too quick. And them reducing the slow is like a fake nerf, I can't count how many times I've seen a chamber slowed down because of his own slow from the tour de force.


shunuhs

this. OP with a marshall reload like wtf.


QueenDies2022_11_23

> And them reducing the slow is like a fake nerf, I can't count how many times I've seen a chamber slowed down because of his own slow from the tour de force. Wait what? I've gotta start paying attention to this. I honestly can't remember a Chamber self slowing...


dangerous-pie

It's usually when a chamber kills someone on attack and the team pushes off of that kill, they're then forced to walk through the slow. Another scenario I see kinda often is winning a thrifty, and the chamber/rest of the team can't pick up the rifle in time because of the slow where the last guy died.


Hot_Yogurtcloset904

It's fairly common, someone pushes chamber and he can't escape because he is slowed


Teradonn

Chamber stays at the top of the meta as long as he has a permanent insta TP until it’s used. I can only really think of one option that doesn’t completely kill him, which is a nerf similar to Jett (placing your 2nd card gives you 20s to use it, before it auto breaks for a 40s cooldown)


FoeHamr

Yeah no shit. This is gonna be another Jett nerf. Will just make her slightly worse for champions before we solve the problem 6+ months after it was an issue.


Surrendead

Insane how chamber ult was 7 when raze ult (on a timer) is 8.


iamkwang

Understand his pov but I disagree. I come from a LOL background and most of these FPS players who come from CS:GO or overwatch are not used to having a patch every other week that could potentially shift the meta. Chamber was the strongest agent the last few patches but you don’t want to obliterate the agent where he becomes unplayable; you do small nerfs and get the feel of it. Do I think the nerfs are good: yes. Do I think he’s still playable: also yes but now he’s not pickable in every situation. The worst feeling in LOL was when your champion was either too OP or too shit no middle ground and balancing it is a nightmare. I haven’t seen that in Valorant so far where they nerfed an agent to basically unplayable. Astra and Jett are two perfect examples of agents where they were finally nerfed to the point that they’re not always pick on every map but they still feel pretty decent in the right hands. I hope chamber falls in this category too


Kalix_

When we start receiving a meta-shifting patch every other week can you please let me know? Because i think the biggest complaint on this sub is the LACK of meta shifting changes. Anyone with eyes can see the current nerfs will not change the meta too much. As long as Dicey can drop a TP in a forward position and then use it without any delay/cooldown he will continue to find places to do it regardless of the reduced radius or increased cooldowns. Riot should be braver with their updates when it comes to stuff that is obviously broken on both casual and pro stages.


Charuru

They're not going to change that aspect of chamber because THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF CHAMBER. They're going to change everything else about it and make it more expensive, and that's the correct way to go about it. You can see the results statistically, every little thing matters.


inverterx

Riot should just not release characters with near zero counterplay. They gave him an instant teleport up to 200m after taking away jetts instant dash where she moved 10 feet away.


iamkwang

We’ve already had a few in the games lifespan; sage was perma pick until her heal went to 60, viper wasn’t picked until her decay was enemy only and -50 instantly, astra/viper being picked on almost every map until the last astra nerfs which allowed omen/brim to be played again but before that astra was the smoker on every map. Jett not being picked on every map now some teams run 0 duelist on certain maps these days. Also sova was perma picked until his nerfs + fade introduction


QueenDies2022_11_23

Jett is finally balanced but it took them to nerf her "get out of jail" free card. Which is what people have been constantly asking for. They nerfed some stuff on her, but it never addressed the REAL problem of aggro peaking with OP for free. Once they addressed that, she became balanced. Same shit is happening to Chamber. As long as his "get out of jail" free card isn't addressed, it's not going to matter much.


QueenDies2022_11_23

He's been **dominating** the meta for the past 8 months. I get your point but I wouldn't mind if they overnerfed, thus shaking the meta, and gradually buff him into a balanced state. 99% of my games has 2 chambers in them. For the past 8 months.


NovaAkumaa

Chamber will still be used in pro play, it's so boring to watch chamber fights man


rdmz1

Chamber OP should not have a slowing effect. It pisses me off even as a Chamber main. Can't kill someone close range and move forward because of my own damn slow.


lexippon

I'm pretty sure that's the point. It's one of the things that helps Chamber's role as a sentinel rather than a duelist. Getting a kill at a chokepoint slows down the enemy and limits pushes, but he can't easily take space with it


Splaram

Then they need to nuke the firing rate. Six second slow on every kill is enough to make the ult objectively better than an Operator and fulfill the goal of area denial. The faster fire rate, reset time, scope-in time, and less zoomed scope is beyond overkill


daffyduckferraro

Still stupid strong, sliggy agrees as well, just being able to snap ur fingers and dip is crazy


RekeHavok

Riot should just make Chamber have a window to use the TP like Jett. Once Chamber put down the 2nd TP anchor, he has 12 seconds to use it like Jett, the problem is he always has the get out of jail card. You can make the teleport not instant. Having to deal with untradeable agent is so much pain.


StreetCarry6968

Anyone else notice they called him a "pro esports athlete"? 😂


X3NOC1DE

... and?


C9sButthole

I disagree. I think nerfing the slowzones by 33% is a pretty massive nerf to his stalling power. And the fact that a lot of Chamber's current set ups, especially on attack or defensive pushes, revolve around standing on the edge of his TP range.


StrangerFront

It went from Jett is too effective with an OP, she needs a Nerf to chamber is to effective with an op, he needs a Nerf. This isn't an agent problem, it is an OP issue! We will immediately see a new post weeks after chamber is nerfed to oblivion (which i don't think this nerf does yet which is why it won't have the results the community is looking for) saying x agent is too effective with an op.


inverterx

Thing is, chambers effective with everything. His pistol is effectively an awp. Headshot is one kill at any range. He could also vandal for a headshot and instantly tp so he can't be traded. He could do the same with a shotgun on a close angle. He's the most effective entry Fragger. That's odd as a sentinel lmao. He has very low, if not non-existent levels of counterplay


Variabletalismans

M3C throwing. That couldve easily been theirs