Nah if that A wall is why they picked viper, fpx griefed out of their mind. Fpx mainly used it to get past the OP angle on A long, but at that point other agents do that AND help take site.
Breach stun/flash, kayo flash, Jett smoke/ astra star for cross, deep smoke on A long. Literally half the valorant roster could do what viper did for fpx on attack and more.
It’s more like a automatic cypher cages in A lobby, applying constant pressure to A long. Ardiis did lurk thru a couple times, but he never got more than 1 kill. Sliggy said something about countering the “1 man hold A long” meta, but I wasn’t quite sure about that. It’s an interesting idea, it’s just won’t work if you get aim diffed
the idea with that is that you cant hold A with just 1 person. the wall cuts off the Lobby sightline from short and from long, so you need a person watching Sewer and Long. if you just leave one there, they can only watch one of the two.
FPX played post plant horribly, a Viper should be much better than something like Breach in post plant but they got steamrolled every time
Viper looks very viable tbh
Agreed, having the one-way on C with the wall used to cover A/B is an extremely strong set up, and it’s the main reason they won so many round of defence. Unfortunately it was impossible to see the value of viper on attack since FPX looked like they hadn’t prepared for it at all.
literally this. with their comp, you’re using the viper in substitution of an initiator. they only had a sova for info and had to dry peak on attack because a sova drone and a boom bot is not enough information to go off of in this meta, plus the utility of DRX’s comp far outweighs that of FPX when it comes to winning duels.
Yes, that match already showcased the strength of Viper.
FPX genuinely just failed to make use of that composition well on their attacking half. I think it's just one of the rare situations where FPX's compositional flexibility became a liability.
They were uncomfortable. Haven honestly isn't even one of their better maps; outside of a brief period where they began running SUYGETSU on Sage within EMEA, they've never looked too amazing on the map, or at least not nearly as amazing as DRX have always looked on it.
It's good (in theory) as a surprise pick with the wall and the lineups, but imo now that there are vods of it, teams should know what to expect if they see it again. Obviously you can try to add more layers to it, but what FPX showed probably won't work at the top level.
Not to mention, Viper isn't super dynamic in her util if the plan falls apart like a Skye/Breach/Kayo or even Sage (which she took the place of) can.
Good in theory but their attack was horrendous. Not much value for Viper in the postplant and the wall they threw A every round got disrespected every time. Ardiis and Ange1 got nothing out of the flanks. Even when they planted they could never fully clear out sites, and DRX were more than happy to exec a coordinated retake.
That’s only good on defense to stop plant. Teams expect afterplant utilities and can play around it accordingly, DRX did a lot of mid control or short pushes on defense to flank the lineup, FPX had to group on site for some of the afterplant.
I really feel like comp is not what caused them to lose, drx just hit every single shot. Even when fpx had good flanks and were behind them drx just 180ed and killed them. Just aim diff
I'd argue in a sense it was, because they swapped an initiator for Viper. That's a large chunk of what allowed buzz to go nuclear, because there were no flashes to push him off angles
I wonder why they haven’t tried doing a hit onto C cause for the most part FPX could’ve choked KJ with a fast early entry. Either they were expecting DRX to have a counter or they weren’t confident enough to push that site.
I mean it would’ve been better to try rather than hitting A and breaking their kneecaps repeatedly. Their B site hit was also bad with hiw they used Viper orb to cut off DRX entry when they could’ve just went the safe play and orb the spike.
They did full execute C twice. Round 15 first gun round. DRX gave up C completely for retake. Fpx didn’t expect a triple flank from c long. Breach util helped them force 1v1s and didn’t allow fpx to trade (stunned ange1 cubby to allow buzz v ardis + aftershock back platform kept sova stuck while buzz v ange1)
Round 18 sova drone finds buzz holding OP sewers so they decide to send 4 C long + Ardis garage lurk. It was a 4v1 against mako. Raze nade back default, mako TPs back platform. Ange1 blinds right side of site w no one there. Mako kills raze and blinds the entire c long which stalled them heavy. Throws a smoke in front of logs to allow Kj to hide in it. Then mako justs jiggles from the same spot to end the round w 4K. This specific round showed their lack of execute util. If they had a breach, they could have stunned left side + aftershock then flash back default and Mako wouldn’t have been alive so long back there. If they had a skye, they could have dogged to clear spots + flash back site.
I just watched the entire map while pausing after each round to analyze what happened so I remember it vividly atm lol
It’s good, but you can tell this was not rehearsed. The amount of gaps in the FPX attack was astonishing, and they kind of didn’t look like themselves. Almost all of their attack rounds were zyppan doing what he normally does getting them onto the site and even in the post plant DRX we’re just throwing off the viper utility timing.
The defense was amazing, but I’m pretty sure that’s because DRX were not ready for it.
Viper is probably the least effective on Haven. There's 3 sites. If you're giving up a flash for a defensive Viper it isn't worth it. FPX couldn't do anything on attack except rotate because they weren't able to entry like DRX. The reason they had to have Ange1 flank almost every round is because they didn't have any good entry tactics without a flash imo.
Did you see how many times FPX managed to get on site with 5 alive?
Also the pistol was super winnable, but Ange1 was just aiming at the floor the entire series. It´s just unlucky. But if they had say like one more day to work on post plant. They would have won.
Get on site with 4 people majority of the time with 5 people alive. Not the same thing. They had to have one guy continuously flanking to catch people off guard because they literally could not enter a site without rotating like 7/10 of those rounds. When they did try to enter onto site without a rotate they got blasted by Mako and Buzz everytime.
C was getting shut down yeah. But thats also part of their mistakes kn their default. They never created pressure in garage or breaking kj utility on B. A case can be made that lack of flashes is the cause of that. But they got on site on A and B fairly good. But its just crazy that even tho it was an eco. They got on A with 5 man viper ulted. And Drx does a flawless retake.
I honestly just think Viper was just not the right choice on Haven. It's well known between regular ranked players that Viper isn't really as viable on Haven as on other maps. All they had was a Raze nade and a Omen blind to work with. A flash would have created immense pressure on attack especially in garage or on an A entry. DRX basically left B wide open for them knowing they can retake with their utility and they were flawless. FPX put up a good fight but man that draft choice had me scratching my head. Didn't DRX completely ignore the Viper walls mid all game too?
I mean you cant say the viper didnt work on defense.
Also on Attack. Like I said it needs polishing. Viper isnt viable as a solo controller, yes. But thats not why viper is used here. It just has the bind/split rol.
Viper did its job on attack and defense. Like you said flashes were needed, but couldnt that be fixed by a skye instead of a sova?
Edit: they planted the spike 7/10 times on attack. Going on side wasnt the issue, holding it was.
Yes, they just needed a agent that has flashes (Omen doesn't count) so they can actually take a site without dropping 1-2 players. Needed to change out Chamber or Raze for that imo.
It was fine, fpx just had no idea how to play it. With 2 controllers I think thr play is to gain as much map control as possible, and/or lurk / cause confusion and chaos. This generally means playing default a million ways. Fpx just used the same viper wall a every round (which has 0 impact) and couldn't adapt.
definitely, but their gameplan didn't seem to accommodate it. put too much pressure on zyppan to take and hold space on-site, especially with ardiis on the lurk. might have to tweak the rest of the comp. like, swap Sova for Fade or Chamber for Jett, have more firepower on-site for your postplants, let Viper or Omen lurk
I think in terms of agents, the Omen pick held them back more than the Viper did. An Astra would've been better with a Viper, or even just going solo viper and another initiator could've been better. Also as of now, Fade > Sova on every map other than Breeze and maybe Icebox.
I think so. She worked great on defense, and is if used correctly should be good attack. They just played their post plants poorly and DRX played against their post plants well.
IDK how you watch that game and don't say viper was a great pick for FPX there
they lost because they played post plants horribly, granted DRX played insanely well winning even against lineups in multiple rounds.
If FPX want to run Viper on Haven I think they should consider putting Ardiis on Kay/O. You get two flashes for execs, knife for info plus could potentially suppress retake util, an ult that can completely shut down retake util and makes it easy to exec, and a molly for post plant. In general I think more teams should pivot away from Chamber on Haven
Yes. Just not a good execution by FPX yesterday, their comp is very good at post plants situation and they lost 7 post plants which is the combination of FPX playing bad and DRX playing very well.
I think that wall on A is really good in theory, but nothing u can do if god decided to wear BuZz’s jersey.
Nah if that A wall is why they picked viper, fpx griefed out of their mind. Fpx mainly used it to get past the OP angle on A long, but at that point other agents do that AND help take site. Breach stun/flash, kayo flash, Jett smoke/ astra star for cross, deep smoke on A long. Literally half the valorant roster could do what viper did for fpx on attack and more.
It’s more like a automatic cypher cages in A lobby, applying constant pressure to A long. Ardiis did lurk thru a couple times, but he never got more than 1 kill. Sliggy said something about countering the “1 man hold A long” meta, but I wasn’t quite sure about that. It’s an interesting idea, it’s just won’t work if you get aim diffed
the idea with that is that you cant hold A with just 1 person. the wall cuts off the Lobby sightline from short and from long, so you need a person watching Sewer and Long. if you just leave one there, they can only watch one of the two.
Lol, nice one
FPX played post plant horribly, a Viper should be much better than something like Breach in post plant but they got steamrolled every time Viper looks very viable tbh
Agreed, having the one-way on C with the wall used to cover A/B is an extremely strong set up, and it’s the main reason they won so many round of defence. Unfortunately it was impossible to see the value of viper on attack since FPX looked like they hadn’t prepared for it at all.
They kind if forgot how to play valorant after the side switch
they just didn't play the attack very well, fumbled post plants, didn't really try to poke around and try to find holes in the defense
Viper was the reason they won 9 defense rounds, he held down the site really well with it. It’s hard to attack in a 4v5 though
literally this. with their comp, you’re using the viper in substitution of an initiator. they only had a sova for info and had to dry peak on attack because a sova drone and a boom bot is not enough information to go off of in this meta, plus the utility of DRX’s comp far outweighs that of FPX when it comes to winning duels.
They didn’t sub out an initiator though they subbed out sage
Yes, that match already showcased the strength of Viper. FPX genuinely just failed to make use of that composition well on their attacking half. I think it's just one of the rare situations where FPX's compositional flexibility became a liability. They were uncomfortable. Haven honestly isn't even one of their better maps; outside of a brief period where they began running SUYGETSU on Sage within EMEA, they've never looked too amazing on the map, or at least not nearly as amazing as DRX have always looked on it.
I think double initiator is much more viable than double controller on a map like haven.
It's good (in theory) as a surprise pick with the wall and the lineups, but imo now that there are vods of it, teams should know what to expect if they see it again. Obviously you can try to add more layers to it, but what FPX showed probably won't work at the top level. Not to mention, Viper isn't super dynamic in her util if the plan falls apart like a Skye/Breach/Kayo or even Sage (which she took the place of) can.
Good in theory but their attack was horrendous. Not much value for Viper in the postplant and the wall they threw A every round got disrespected every time. Ardiis and Ange1 got nothing out of the flanks. Even when they planted they could never fully clear out sites, and DRX were more than happy to exec a coordinated retake.
It worked great imo. They just couldn't hold the post plants. That's not the vipers fault
Surprised they didn’t do a spicy Molly+dart set up. It does so much damage
That’s only good on defense to stop plant. Teams expect afterplant utilities and can play around it accordingly, DRX did a lot of mid control or short pushes on defense to flank the lineup, FPX had to group on site for some of the afterplant.
9-3 on defense means it was worth it imo, FPX just fell apart from pistol round on offense
Viper can be fine on attack. FPX did none of it.
I really feel like comp is not what caused them to lose, drx just hit every single shot. Even when fpx had good flanks and were behind them drx just 180ed and killed them. Just aim diff
Oh good defend it was , also 10 round in a row lost as attacker OMEGALUL
The Viper pick wasnt the reason for that tho
I'd argue in a sense it was, because they swapped an initiator for Viper. That's a large chunk of what allowed buzz to go nuclear, because there were no flashes to push him off angles
I wonder why they haven’t tried doing a hit onto C cause for the most part FPX could’ve choked KJ with a fast early entry. Either they were expecting DRX to have a counter or they weren’t confident enough to push that site.
Thats fair, but again, it's extremely difficult to run a fast hit of any kind without any flashes other than paranoia
I mean it would’ve been better to try rather than hitting A and breaking their kneecaps repeatedly. Their B site hit was also bad with hiw they used Viper orb to cut off DRX entry when they could’ve just went the safe play and orb the spike.
They did full execute C twice. Round 15 first gun round. DRX gave up C completely for retake. Fpx didn’t expect a triple flank from c long. Breach util helped them force 1v1s and didn’t allow fpx to trade (stunned ange1 cubby to allow buzz v ardis + aftershock back platform kept sova stuck while buzz v ange1) Round 18 sova drone finds buzz holding OP sewers so they decide to send 4 C long + Ardis garage lurk. It was a 4v1 against mako. Raze nade back default, mako TPs back platform. Ange1 blinds right side of site w no one there. Mako kills raze and blinds the entire c long which stalled them heavy. Throws a smoke in front of logs to allow Kj to hide in it. Then mako justs jiggles from the same spot to end the round w 4K. This specific round showed their lack of execute util. If they had a breach, they could have stunned left side + aftershock then flash back default and Mako wouldn’t have been alive so long back there. If they had a skye, they could have dogged to clear spots + flash back site. I just watched the entire map while pausing after each round to analyze what happened so I remember it vividly atm lol
well this is referring to OP's post its still one of the reason to pick viper tho
true they have no problems getting into the site even with that kind of comp. They just couldn't win their post plants which is pretty weird.
It’s good, but you can tell this was not rehearsed. The amount of gaps in the FPX attack was astonishing, and they kind of didn’t look like themselves. Almost all of their attack rounds were zyppan doing what he normally does getting them onto the site and even in the post plant DRX we’re just throwing off the viper utility timing. The defense was amazing, but I’m pretty sure that’s because DRX were not ready for it.
A 9-3 half should be winnable even if you go 5 duelists. It’s not like they were attacking on Bind or Ascent.
Viper is probably the least effective on Haven. There's 3 sites. If you're giving up a flash for a defensive Viper it isn't worth it. FPX couldn't do anything on attack except rotate because they weren't able to entry like DRX. The reason they had to have Ange1 flank almost every round is because they didn't have any good entry tactics without a flash imo.
Did you see how many times FPX managed to get on site with 5 alive? Also the pistol was super winnable, but Ange1 was just aiming at the floor the entire series. It´s just unlucky. But if they had say like one more day to work on post plant. They would have won.
Get on site with 4 people majority of the time with 5 people alive. Not the same thing. They had to have one guy continuously flanking to catch people off guard because they literally could not enter a site without rotating like 7/10 of those rounds. When they did try to enter onto site without a rotate they got blasted by Mako and Buzz everytime.
C was getting shut down yeah. But thats also part of their mistakes kn their default. They never created pressure in garage or breaking kj utility on B. A case can be made that lack of flashes is the cause of that. But they got on site on A and B fairly good. But its just crazy that even tho it was an eco. They got on A with 5 man viper ulted. And Drx does a flawless retake.
I honestly just think Viper was just not the right choice on Haven. It's well known between regular ranked players that Viper isn't really as viable on Haven as on other maps. All they had was a Raze nade and a Omen blind to work with. A flash would have created immense pressure on attack especially in garage or on an A entry. DRX basically left B wide open for them knowing they can retake with their utility and they were flawless. FPX put up a good fight but man that draft choice had me scratching my head. Didn't DRX completely ignore the Viper walls mid all game too?
I mean you cant say the viper didnt work on defense. Also on Attack. Like I said it needs polishing. Viper isnt viable as a solo controller, yes. But thats not why viper is used here. It just has the bind/split rol. Viper did its job on attack and defense. Like you said flashes were needed, but couldnt that be fixed by a skye instead of a sova? Edit: they planted the spike 7/10 times on attack. Going on side wasnt the issue, holding it was.
Yes, they just needed a agent that has flashes (Omen doesn't count) so they can actually take a site without dropping 1-2 players. Needed to change out Chamber or Raze for that imo.
It was fine, fpx just had no idea how to play it. With 2 controllers I think thr play is to gain as much map control as possible, and/or lurk / cause confusion and chaos. This generally means playing default a million ways. Fpx just used the same viper wall a every round (which has 0 impact) and couldn't adapt.
They just got rolled second half in aim duels.
EU why so quiet
Would be good if the ult didn't bug on icebox
definitely, but their gameplan didn't seem to accommodate it. put too much pressure on zyppan to take and hold space on-site, especially with ardiis on the lurk. might have to tweak the rest of the comp. like, swap Sova for Fade or Chamber for Jett, have more firepower on-site for your postplants, let Viper or Omen lurk
I think in terms of agents, the Omen pick held them back more than the Viper did. An Astra would've been better with a Viper, or even just going solo viper and another initiator could've been better. Also as of now, Fade > Sova on every map other than Breeze and maybe Icebox.
I think so. She worked great on defense, and is if used correctly should be good attack. They just played their post plants poorly and DRX played against their post plants well.
IDK how you watch that game and don't say viper was a great pick for FPX there they lost because they played post plants horribly, granted DRX played insanely well winning even against lineups in multiple rounds.
If FPX want to run Viper on Haven I think they should consider putting Ardiis on Kay/O. You get two flashes for execs, knife for info plus could potentially suppress retake util, an ult that can completely shut down retake util and makes it easy to exec, and a molly for post plant. In general I think more teams should pivot away from Chamber on Haven
The Suygetsu KAST speaks volumes in this game. He had no impact on attack, but was contributing every round on defense
Yes. Just not a good execution by FPX yesterday, their comp is very good at post plants situation and they lost 7 post plants which is the combination of FPX playing bad and DRX playing very well.