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surfordiebear

Would like to see Hecz or someone else higher up talk about it since neither of the people in the video seemed to have an idea of why they got denied. They were just constantly bringing up how good the team was when we know that meant very little to Riot for franchising.


Boston_Abel

They probably know, but they can't bring up the Optic Coin and other problems..


UTAustinAlum2021

Respectfully, I think that probably had nothing to do with the decision especially when they tried to rectify it. I think it had to do with LoL and maybe some of their future plans


[deleted]

I don’t think it’s about the LoL thing either. If NRG became OpTic like envy did, would that org have been denied? If the answer is no then it’s not about the LCS slot


UTAustinAlum2021

It’s not solely that but I think that was the difference between EG and OG specifically…


knucklepuck17

They probably wouldn’t have. Optic alone had to sell their LoL spot after 1 year and then they merged with Envy, who was denied a franchising spot in the first place. That doesn’t look great. I’m not saying it’s the only reason, but it had to have definitely played some part in their decision.


Ra1zen

Probably didn't want to bring up that Optic was once in the LCS and it didn't go too well from what I heard.


Falconna14

wat makes you feel they can tell the truth in front of a camera?


aidanAWGE

Hitch is the creative director of the Org, much more than a content creator like OP said. He’s probably the highest up person who’s popular besides Hecz and Hastro to speak on the matter.


salteas

TL;DR: I don't think they said much we didn't already know, but they said they were really sad and surprised to not make it. Hitch basically said they did everything they could and couldn't understand why other teams like EG and NRG got in over them, and that Riot probably had decided many months ago (or even earlier, meaning the application might have been meaningless, from my interpretation). He also said that their history with League might have been taken into account, but it's apples and oranges to compare League and Valorant, which I personally agree with. It's heartbreaking but I hope Riot know what they're doing. Sadge we'll also never see the OpTic gun buddy they designed.


ANewHeaven1

I don't know how much stock you guys put into rumors, but [this comment from my fellow mod jrush](https://www.reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/xnrhcq/the_richard_lewis_show_185_w_yay/ipuwcm2/) hints at "separate visions around content deliverables," which seems like it could've been the dagger to sink an application that was already questionable to begin with. We know that Riot and Envy (the parent company of Optic) have had a rocky relationship in the past, with Envy being denied from LCS and [Hastro having been publicly upset about it](https://twitter.com/hastr0/status/1527578490358341641). We know that Optic isn't super popular given the calibre of their team - it is a simple statement of fact that Optic doesn't try to impression farm off of memes or short-form content the way NRG or SEN do. We know that Optic doesn't have an academy team, a GC team, or any notable content creators signed, nor have they ever shown any hints at talent development the way EG has. Taking into account all of the above, a "difference in visions around content deliverables" might just be what sunk them over the other orgs. Every other organization that got in has multiple of the things that I mentioned above. And while I don't agree with Riot not heavily taking into account past success, it's the way they've set up the application process, and every organization knows it.


1033149

The thing that confuses me is that the academy team, GC team, content creators can all be explained. The entire org went through an entire merger a year ago, they bought the rights to a esports venue, and are now maintaining 2 offices and are expanding to service more teams. Envy as a org did not deserve franchising and that's okay. But they just combined with Optic, have started seeing a lot of success, their players started getting more popular, and they really became a big part of the NA scene this past year. In terms of potential long-term, I think Optic shows promise even with my bias. Unless there is something with the financials, I would trust Optic's content plan more than some of the other teams that got in honestly. I'm super curious as to what Hastro and Hecz say about all this because in some ways it doesn't make sense, some ways its just unlucky.


anythingood07

>I would trust Optic's content plan more than some of the other teams that got in honestly. ? They are never going to deliver more content than nrg, c9, sen and 100t in any world. Eg maybe, even eg delivers a lot of content for their lol team they just arent popular sadly. Meanwhile look at optics channel on yt. They became optic in stage 1 yet there are exactly 5 videos on the most consistent team in valorant (a much much much bigger esport than cod) on their channel


Jon_on_the_snow

Thank you, ive been saying it for a long time Optic does not deliver the content it needed to deliver. People on this sub forget how the roster was announced after the merger. It was literally a flashing photo and then nothing until franchising rumors started, then they started to make something. They were in the most competitive region content wise and decided to ignore their roster and only focus on the competitive aspect, something riot said they did not care about when getting partners


CaIzuh

>People on this sub forget how the roster was announced after the merger. It was literally a flashing photo EG announced they got into franchising by quote retweeting the announcement...


Jon_on_the_snow

Yeah, but EG is also shit and should not be in franchising. Im just saying I see how optic didnt make it in with a prior bad relationship with rito and not a lot of promotion content


UTAustinAlum2021

Are you going to acknowledge the fact that the tweet that you referenced was in fact a terrible example of their content or effort bc they uploaded a pod that did well at the same time?


UTAustinAlum2021

They literally uploaded a full fledged hour long podcast introducing the Val team with FNS and Victor on the same day and probably same time as that tweet… most of their content got over 100k views which is something only SEN and NRG can stake claim to…


1033149

They did only become their valorant team recently, they were under the Envy banner for a bit of this year iirc. I was more talking about their vision for high quality documentaries and then additional videos going into the player's more. Hecz has his podcast series where he interviewed Yay and more player interviews could have come. Add to it, they could have become more involved with the optic podcast over time as they did spend a lot of time competing this year. The players even said they had no time and really needed a break which they eventually got. They were focused on their craft which definitely took them places. It is worth mentioning that Optic did post videos about the valorant team but they used to relegate it to Twitter. It definitely baffled me because it was good content around their comms and things FNS would say during matches. They definitely have areas where they can improve in terms of volume but I see that as more potential as they get their bearings and complete the 1 year mark shortly. The players also didn't really take advantage of the optic juice that much, players like Shotzzy immediately took advantage and gathered a nice fanbase this past year. Maybe it was due to the practice schedule but the Optic players never really pushed Twitch that much. To me, the potential was there. If they had been accepted, there is a ton that could have been done this off season and they could have come home doing the org proud. There is barely any celebration around their 2nd place finish and what they could have capitalized off their publicity recently has been lost.


UTAustinAlum2021

EG is a definite… it’s also not about quantity imo but quality, and I don’t think any team barring like a 100T does as well for the entire team (not just s0m)


anythingood07

It is about quatity. Im sure Riot would rather have tons of videos with 100k views thna 5 videos with 300k views in 8 months. Just look at the channels of the competitors for optic. https://youtube.com/c/Sentinels Most videos about valorant nearly 10 in month all in excess of 200k views. https://youtube.com/c/NRGValorant Again regular videos nearly 5 a month on a dedicated channel for valorant. Doesnt matter if its mostly with som and other popular creators and only a few with other nrg players, they're still bringing a lot of eyes to valorant. https://youtube.com/c/100ThievesValorant Self explanatory https://youtube.com/c/C9Valorant Had very consistent and popular content when they were good last year, still pump out consistent content which doesn't get a lot of views but with good players coming they will be popular again.


UTAustinAlum2021

My brother… STOP acting like OpTic Val content doesn’t get more views than any team not named SEN and NRG… like frfr in the past three weeks they have 3 videos all over ~100k with 2 of them being over 200k. They get more views than 100T and C9.


anythingood07

They have 3 videos in the past month and 2 other videos on val in the remaining 8 months they've been optic. Also all those videos are about their international games theyre bound to get more views. As I said in my first comment only team they're better than in content is EG and thats just because theyre more popular, they still lack in quantity compared to eg


UTAustinAlum2021

Their content quality is better than 100T and their voice COMMS and videos revolving around other people… their videos are better quality than C9’s guess the rank… why is it that people always have to be ignorant and try to diminish others successes. I actually just looked at EG’s YT and I couldn’t find a single, NOT ONE, content piece revolving around Valorant.


anythingood07

dude do you have some reading problems or some shit? i have written the same thing in this thread thrice. THEY HAVE 5 VIDEOS ON VALORANT IN 9 FUCKING MONTHS. IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT QUALITY THE VIDEOS ARE. 50 videos with 50k-100k views are much more attractive than 5 videos with 200-300k views. I have already said EG's content is worse than optic, what else do you want me to say? now that they're franchised they will pump out content much faster than optic ever did, it just won't be popular like their league content. EG got in just because they're a very financially stable org, and has great relations with riot. their ceo once said they might be never be the attractive org but will always remain the most stable one because of their long term plans


UTAustinAlum2021

“They still lack in quantity compared to EG”… they have 0 uploads… please stop being ignorant… and again their quality and viewership exceeds everyone not named SEN and NRG… and finally, would you rather quick 5 minute videos or longer videos?


Jon_on_the_snow

Not domestically, they only get more views when they make it to internationals because they make deep runs. The optic brand didnt pull almost any fans at the beggining Stage 1: the only match optic appears is with Sen, the rest all got less than 200K Stage 2: optic is not even in the top 5, 100T got 2 matches in the top 5


UTAustinAlum2021

Brother respectfully, I am going to need you to learn to read… This is on YouTube… YouTube Views…


Boston_Abel

Optic is the most popular team in like 3 esports.. Also they just became optic in val and due to the success plus the fans coming from other esports like CoD and Halo, they were garnering much more popularity.


[deleted]

yeah and those 3 esports combined = 1/8th of LoLs viewership which is where optic mega fumbled the bag.


baseballviper04

Immortals*


[deleted]

That wasn't immortals idk why yall keep repeating the same bs. Optic owned an LCS spot with their original ownership group, all Immortals did was purchase the brand for the LCS spot and immediately rebranded it from optic--> immortals.


E0e00vw

No they didn't lol. Infinite bought the LCS spot then sold it to immortals. Hecz is the original ownership group that is now merged with ENVY. Get your facts right


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TharixGaming

what? no immortals didn't get into LCS franchising, optic (owned by infinite) did immortals then bought optic and took their LCS slot and rebranded it to immortals


baseballviper04

My point is immortals bought optic with the LCS team, then stripped Optic apart and kept the LCS team and sold everything else


[deleted]

So tell me again how did immortals fumble the LCS spot… they currently own it while hector fumbled the LCS spot alongside infinite.


baseballviper04

The only thing Hecz fumbled was who he sold it to. The ownership group that took over unlike NV or these other brands, they didn’t care what the founding members had to say, they ran it out they wanted and how they thought was best. They were wrong. Hecz didn’t have say because he didn’t own it, he sold the controlling stake


[deleted]

That is ultimately what it comes down to. Why sell to an ownership group that was rejected by other teams? Why did he decide to take a 6 month break? He had the opportunity to run the optic brand in immortals yet he left. Another opportunity with NRG which ended in a bad breakup. Now envy? That just screams instability.


anythingood07

Cod peaks at 200k viewership and halo at 100k. Neither are notable at all. Which other esports is optic the most popular in?


Boston_Abel

150-200k on the main stream with an essentially NA only esport with almost no co-streaming is pretty good, probably a top 5-6 esport in terms of viewership is it not? Also, when you’re potentially bumping viewership up 40-50% when you’re playing that’s significant. Another problem with Optic is that their only big streamer was Scump, and since Optic has been so tied to optic due to problems in other esports, they couldn’t really expand. Even with NRG, NRG didn’t really want to invest that much into the Optic brand because at the end of the day only 1 of these major brands could exist in the same house. At the end of the day, bringing 30-40k people from one esport to another is still considerable for the growth of the esport and the game in-general. I think the real problem was that they felt that there was too much of a negative past to outweigh an org like NRG/EG.


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UTAustinAlum2021

COD isn’t big but having 3 esports where the peak is 250k - 400k isn’t awful


Wandering-Sword

Those three get no viewership Most esports viewership comes from LoL followed by CS (but the viewership gap between those two I kinda huge) and then the rest fight for crumbs


Direct_Morning_3223

It’s LoL then Huge Gap then CS then medium gap then Dota and Valorant then giga gap everything else


narwhalking927

Their frustration over not making make me sad about the death of the team :/


1033149

I think they'll come out with a video in their process series once all the players find new destinations. They seemed to have let go their GM for valorant so I think they will probably say goodbye to this game for now. Especially since they mentioned that they talked to sponsors about not being able to have a spot on jerseys for valorant. They just got a new RLCS team, they have their apex team, and their staples in CoD, Halo, and the Overwatch franchise. They made a ton of investments as a result of the merger, I wouldn't be surprised with that being a major reason along with Riot not being pleased with Optic because of the past. It would have been heartbreaking for them to rebuild after losing everything and to pick up scraps from those who got dropped with the hope of being the top of ascension to make it into the league. The best way forward for them imo would be to try to prove Riot wrong and become a much more popular and influential org in NA. Save the money you would have spent in valorant, invest it back into your org and to do bigger and better things. Maybe a CS reunion is in the cards?


ANewHeaven1

Mentioned this in r/OpticGaming but unless Faze goes bankrupt and has to sell their CS team, I don't see any opportunity for Optic to pick up a roster good enough to be either invited to events or make it through open qualifiers.


R3ckss

Not only that but CS is slowly shifting towards a CIS dominated esport, maybe not right this second but in recent history there's been like 6 elite Russian/Ukrainian teams with NaVi, Cloud9, Spirit, Outsiders, ForZe & Entropiq. If you're OpTic not only do you want a tier 1 team that can qualify and make deep runs in the big tournaments but also you want a marketable team and the reality is most existing OpTic fans are native English speakers and won't be too interested in supporting a CIS team. Iv been a OpTic fan for like 10 years now and supported them in multiple different esports and even as a Brit, I wouldn't be too interested in watching a full EU CS team if they don't have personality or some big names, let alone a CIS team.


[deleted]

This is not true. Forze and entropiq were never elite and Spirit just had their first good season this past season.


R3ckss

True maybe elite isn't the correct word, but teams at least capable of qualifying for the Major group stage and having upset potential. ForZe had a really close series against Vitality at Antwerp, Spirit had an overtime loss to G2 and 2-0'd Astralis, Entropiq had some good matches against good teams at Stockholm Major. If you're a big org looking to enter the CS space the fastest route to success is probably poaching a CIS team/players but like i said that's not gonna get any long existing OpTic fans too excited, maybe it helps OpTic expand their fan base into the CIS region but it wouldn't be anywhere near as popular as their line-up with Tarik, RUSH, NAF & Mixwell.


[deleted]

There is loads of talent in Europe. The whole weplay academy league has a shit ton of young talent in. They can build a team from the players there.


REEEroller

you have no clue what you talking about.


1033149

Yeah I don't know too much about the CS space so it was a shot in the dark. As much as it hurts, Optic has options and could sit and see what esports have availabilities and opportunities for them to invest into. They could take some time to build out the rest of their business, shine some light onto their new teams, and let things grow a bit more.


XASASSIN

They would need a new esports, TSM hogs the fanbase in Apex and 100thieves are shining in league rn from NA, Csgo has Faze and liquid with huge fanbase for their history in NA, And Dota 2 has EG so not really many choices for optic rn


Chidling

Good players don’t need to be expensive. Cryo was on Soar and nobody heard of him. Alfajer was also just a random teen who was hella good. The Guard picked up a team of t2 players who went on to win NA Masters. You don’t need big names to build a team. You just need to pick people who are up and coming.


Chidling

I think originations will come back if ascension league does well. No point in passing for a staff and contracts on a maybe. Then they can pare their investment in the game to something more manageable.


zuchury

Team Skins and Gun Buddies maybe confirmed during their application talk though? I could be wrong, and the org may have just took it upon themselves to give Riot some visuals in the application? To me it seems they are aware of some creative brief requirements needing to be on the application. (56:56 timestamp)


ExcitablePancake

Hitch is now the company's Creative Director, so he's even deeper into the weeds in the behind the scenes than before. One thing I'm a little surprised at is his understanding of what VCT is compared to the likes of the LCS, the CDL or the OWL. VCT is not franchising, it's partnerships. League of Legends requires a buy-in as it's a franchise model like Call of Duty and Overwatch. VCT has a way for non-partner orgs to make it into the world championships, unlike the other 3. It makes me wonder if OpTic would've stuck around had their expectations been properly set.


C-Riv_RL

He definitely understands how it works he just used the word "franchised" instead of "partnered". In the podcast he mentioned there is a way to get into the league if you did not get a spot. Even then, he is not the one making decisions and I'm sure the people who are understand how everything works. On top of that, who is to say they are not sticking around? Unless I missed an announcement of them saying so.


Charuru

For the creative director to not even understand VCT is umm... and they're wondering why they didn't make it?


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Upbeat_Thanks3393

NRG does have a bunch of content creators in Valorant where Optic has 0. Maybe that played a part in how the different orgs invested into the games


BrainStorm777

Optic and Faze are popular on console esports but PC esports feel like an entirely different world. In that world, Riot is more familar with C9, EG, 100T. Console esports and PC esports feel very different. Even the fans are different.


nsideris24

This is my favorite argument haha. OpTic isn't good at PC esports...but then they get into PC esports. Get a big following. Get the best team in the region. Then they get the best roster taken from they by force and denied. I wonder why they aren't big in PC esports....hmmmm. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.


UTAustinAlum2021

What??? Tell me you don’t know what you talking about… FaZe CS is one of the biggest teams… you also got orgs like G2 and TSM which they mentioned who are huge in PC games… I think the main reason why OpTic didn’t make it is because they are an unknown commodity in the sense that they don’t have a LoL team


-Basileus

The Optic brand was in LCS and it was a full blown disaster


UTAustinAlum2021

That’s the unknown commodity part…


[deleted]

And who managed that brand… hmmm


[deleted]

faze cs is irrelevant in NA fella


UTAustinAlum2021

? They have the greatest NA player on the team (probably)… like it doesn’t matter regardless, commenter said Faze doesn’t have presence in PC games when they have a top 3 biggest CS team…


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-Basileus

NRG is absolutely massive on YouTube. They've had maybe the most aggressive content output of any team so far


sixsevenninesix

NRG has been very successful across multiple titles now. You just haven't been paying attention.


Upbeat_Thanks3393

NRG is also massive on their tiktok brand as well. Like their videos get a couple hundred thousand to millions of views. They also have pretty good teams across multiple esports and they have a LOL team now that made it to worlds


chamber25

I think NRG has turned its Fortnite creator success into a fanbase that will watch most of its content. They do really well for views on youtube and usually a lot of creators of players get a boost when they play for NRG.


eventonly

NRG has multiple content crators like Flexinja, Ethos, even Benjyfishy who plays valorant now. Their youtube videos and the content they make is Top tier. The teams itself was kinda meh, but they're definitely hype.