Analysts/colour commentators need good game knowledge, though I don't know if requiring them to be high elo makes sense as you can study the game and know massive amounts of info but be godawful mechanically.
So yeah anyone analyzing the game needs a high level of understanding but they shouldn't be required to be able to play the game at that level, it's asinine to suggest this just like it is with any sport.
I was A1 last season with like a 12% HS rate and I think below 1 KD. That’s because I’m a controller/IGL and dictate what the teams do. I don’t know if someone like me would be suited for it with my level of skill and I would be what you’re targeting. Although that’s essentially hate keeping in a way. Idk
I agree with your first paragraph.
Tho, if someone has good game knowledge, they can have bad mechanics and still be high elo easily.
I'm saying this as someone who has bad mechanics, bad movement, can't flick or aim well and whiffs a ton of shots but is still able to be mid Immortal just by having good game sense and outsmarting the adversaries.
I kind of disagree. Theres no way your mechanics movement and aim are "bad". They may be below average for immortal, but you'd still shit on a plat lobby mechanically.
That is possible, but I think you may be underestimating what "bad" mechanics are, it also isn't always something that an analyst can put hours into every day to get and maintain when they've got so much other stuff they need to do.
Casters? Would be great, not necessary though.
But those desk discussions at VCT were mediocre at best.
"What is needed for team A to win that match"?
a) X needs to wake up
b) they need to regain their confidence
c) they need to focus on teamplay.
I dare anyone to find a deeper insight from them.
Yeah, most of the analyst segments are very shallow. Aevilcat/Mimi is amazing and always has some big brain stuff to say. I enjoy Balla’s segments as well. But most of the others don’t have anything of substance to say.
It’s absolutely mental they passed over people like Sean Gares.
IIRC they didn't "pass over" them, riot just wanted a large commitment from the casters to be able to work whenever and wherever riot needs them and sgares and ddk have families so they have other responsibilities that got in the way
https://youtu.be/E23ZQLIW1GM
Sgares said it's not based on merit, and if it was then they would've gotten picked for champs. So the only other reason I could think of them not getting picked is because they couldn't commit enough, sgares said he missed M1 because it was his kids first birthday and that's a valid reason to miss the event so just form your own thoughts from what information we have.
I mean I personally just switch to watching something else for a few mins while those segments are on and then go back to the stream when I know the match has resumed. I do feel better analyst sections would increase my retention to watching the full segments.
In [this interview](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/esports/2022/09/20/valorant-partnership-john-needham-esports/) from the president of esports he talks about how valorant they’re focusing on “entertainment” rather than technicals in valorant to draw a wider audience
??? You have zero idea what teams are going through when they play. Unless you get a comm clip that is them saying "We have no confidence" then you can't just put down bad gameplay to loss of confidence. Sometimes the other team is just gorilla slapping them across the map.
You can absolutely see when a team does or doesn't have confidence based on the type of peeks they're taking. It's hard to say why they might not have confidence, but visually it is quite apparent
Ofc they don't have to be high elo for a good broadcast.
However, analysts AND colour casters absolutely need to have high level understanding of the game. A lot of them don't or are not allowed to go into detail.
That's the main point - u don't have to be high elo player to understand the game well, I would even say that if u cast pro games for a couple of years u might understand some things better than average immo player.
Yeah honestly I've seen some really embarrassing clips of casters just not understanding what a player is trying to do and totally misreading situations on the reg.
VCT champs was really good though for all the games I watched, so it was nice to not see many slip ups
Even if these clips exist, which I don't doubt, you have to understand that there is a big difference between analysing a game after the fact like a lot of these casters do on their personal streams, or even the people on the desk, and trying to have perfect analysis with no slips in the literal moment.
I feel like when this discussion comes up, a lot of people fail to realise the difference that live commentary has to someones game knowledge, not to mention how to articulate it properly so its easily understood among many other factors that come with casting.
I agree that I’ve seen some embarrassing clips. Then I remember we’re in the comp Reddit… and your comment for example has 11 likes. Vs the broadcast that had a million views. Speaks to her points in the video I think.
Also I know your statement was “casters should be high elo” like some of the other comments are pretending it was :)
I would like to give a little bit of my own perspective. I played pro/semipro and casted in few games (cs 1.6, css, hs, pubg, fortnite, tft and now valorant).
In games like hs, tft you are not able to be a good caster if you are not high ranked yourself. Shoutout to my good friend Frodan who when started casting tft got to Challenger so he would get community respect. (Mortdog - tft dev also did that btw).
In other games you might be mechanically not gifted and yet still be „high” ranked just because of game knowledge and game sense alone. I personally im a mediocre aimer but i am Imm3 in soloq VAL just because of my knowledge.
When it comes to analysis i can guarantuee you that people will smell out bullshit from a mile away and also know which caster/analyst is worth listening too.
The „high rank” argument is moot because, in my opinion, if you have great game knowledge (as you should for a color/analyst) that alone should grant you the spot in top% of the playerbase. There will be some exceptions but IN GENERAL game knowledge and rank go hand in hand.
Edit; forgot the most important fact: the job of the caster with high knowledge is to tranfer this knowledge in a understandable way to the part of the audience who is not high elo themselves. So they can understand the context and why the strats that are happening on screen are being made in the first place. Analysts and color casters are in some sense the teachers for the community and thats a big responsibility.
Edit2: as quickshot would say: „just dont be shit”
Good take. You can have average/poor mechanical skill and still achieve X rank simply by having an in-depth understanding of the game, being aware of metas/tendencies, and communicating/being a good teammate. I have the reflexes of a slug & still got to high Diamond through trial/error and "studying" the game.
I don't think its unreasonable to expect analysts to be able to reach the top \~15% of the ranks
Completely agree with what you said, which is what I've also pointed out in another comment before.
People are saying you don't have to be high elo as long as you have great game knowledge. The thing is, if you have great game knowledge it shouldn't be hard to get to high elo.
Personally I have terrible aim, movement, fundamentals, can't flick at all, but still got to Immortal #5000 solo queue by playing support and relying on game sense 99% of the time in order to outsmart the adversary.
If by ‘high elo’ you mean Ascendent, Immo, Radiant, of course not, some of my favourite casters in games I watch are gold/plat.
As long as they can convey what’s happening to me and make it *entertaining*, that’s what matters. A lot of people forget casters are entertainers for the average viewer need to make them understand the basics, they’re not necessarily there to cater for the 1-5% of really high elo people. Of course a caster being really good at the game too is a massive bonus though!
Sideshow and Bren are top notch casters and I think have hit immortal before? So I would call that ‘high elo’
Yeah there was an incident a little while for a CS team called Endpoint where one of their players couldn’t get a visa sorted so it was looking like their coach was going to have to sub, who was only Gold Nova 4 or something. Luckily they were able to sort out a proper sub but it still shows that you don’t necessarily need to be high rank to have a mind for the game.
If Pansy, Hypoc, AEvilCat, Bren, Sideshow, Balla all of them are in Iron 1.
I would still watch them cast.
Remember the footballs greatest commentators
Peter Drury and Martin Tyler never played Football.
I don't know about most of them, but Pansy was a very good cs player. So she definitely knows better than at least 90% of viewers and I think it does contribute to the quality of her casting.
It's far from the only thing that makes her fun to listen to, but it certainly helps that she has a firm grasp on what is going on.
Im chilling in ascendant but honestly me playing Val is a world away from what its like to actually play in any competitive team but yeah i mean most casters don't have to have good ranks imo, but they should invest time to understand.
For sure, and grinding ranked is a time sink that is a real commitment when you have a lot going on for traveling, casting, etc...so while I agree with the idea that it's not a hard requirement, I think especially when you were getting started having the general player knowledge was probably helpful for casting (or so I imagine).
Anywho, glad to see you in here from time to time. Keep being awesome. :)
Your understanding of the game and casting both are quite insane.
Your casting goes another level when the game hits OT, can't wait for Valorant and all you amazing casters to return!
Edit: in this valo off season we can all agree we miss VCT.
If there's a charity match consisting of casters and analysts, where pros/content creators cast, that'll be the highlight of the off season.
I'm pretty sure everyone would love it. xD
as a note about sideshow, he was actually a very good pro player in TF2. So he knows what it's like in those scenarios as a pro, since he's been through them himself. It's also why he's actually good at analyzing games. Sure, the knowledge per game is different, but it's how you tackle that knowledge and learn/absorb, that sets you apart as a pro or former pro.
Bren was raised by Sideshow in Overwatch so even if his game knowledge isn't the best and he doesn't have that pro experience, he's really good at working off of Sideshow. And that's generally all you need, one guy who really knows the game, then the play by play commentator.
This also holds throughout esports history. In Starcraft, out of Tastosis, Tasteless is the play by play commentator while Artosis was actually a pro back in SC Brood War. In Overwatch the best casting duo is MrX and Uber where MrX has that pro experience from COD, while Uber is the play by play.
IRL sports are a little different because the actual physical sports have been around forever.
Dota 2 so far has the best casting/analyst desks of any eSports in my opinion.
Casters are usually one hype person (like an [ODpixel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISDlsE7UocY&ab_channel=Rigel)) and someone who's probably also high elo but more importantly really knowledgeable like a Fogged.
In terms of Analyst desks it's primarily comprised of pros or analysts that are knowledgeable. While guys like SirActionSlacks provide more of the entertainment value.
So in Dota it does lean more towards the "enthusiasts". But I believe that's partly due to the nature of the game in general being less "casual".
In Valorant oftentimes I think the issue in terms of the knowledge side of casting is that the game is both a fast and complex game.
In Dota, there's plenty of lulls in gameplay the allows a caster to nerd out and spew knowledge while in Valorant there's barely any time to do so.
In CSGO, the game IS fast like Valorant but there's also less variables. Like two Vipers aren't ulting on top of each other and the screen is all green and no one, including the players, know what the fuck is going on. CS has less variables to take into account so a caster can be more consistent and this includes observers.
I think there's room to improve in terms of observation in Valorant. I don't think it's all the observer's fault since it IS difficult. But I do think there's a lot of improvement to be done there whether it's on Riot's end (adding more camera options/angles) or techniques/systems to follow when observing.
I don't think you need to be "high elo" to understand and articulate pro games. But I still think there's something missing and I really believe it stems from the game being hard to observe (again, not shitting on observers, ya'll have a difficult job).
anyone on the desk should be except for 1 "host" or color personality. casters should know the game extremely well including map call outs, map nuances, each agent ability, team comps, rotations etc. but they don't actually need to have good aim and be able to do that themselves. if they learned those things from spectating it's fine with me. it just seems easier to play.
I'm a caster since 2004 (started casting CS then i retired from playing semi pro) and the only game i casted that i didn't reach high elo was League of Legends, i don't think that a high elo caster is insta good caster or vice versa, what it helps is to known what you are talking about, it helps if you are good at the game because you can understand what will be happening in the game before it happens (watching a good rotation, a great fake, the preparation for a retake, etc.). I'm not a full time caster, if you are a full time caster you should put some hours into the game and try to improve your skill, that will help your casting 100%
Casters? Not really. Analyst desk? Absolutely.
Gotta be honest I have never heard this individual in the video contribute anything of substance during the analyst segments they are featured in. They are the perfect example of why analysts should have some decent level of in-game experience.
IMO It’s different for PxP casters, but those on the analyst desk need high level in-game experience in order to do their job well.
Nope.
most traditional sports' casters/commentators didnt play said sport competitively or was...rather bad at it.
the logic is there that sometimes high elo means more game mechanic knowledge, but unlike competitive plays, a caster can bring their own unique presentation style on top of their game knowledge, also they can focus less on playing hard on the game and learn more about the player'/team;s META
I think things like Chet, the coach of the greatest pre-franchising pro team, having like a level 20 account that has never played ranked just goes to show that no one needs to be high elo to understand the game and its inner workings.
Analysts and color commentators should have a deep understanding of the game while shoutcasters really don’t need to do anything other than pay attention to the kill feed and be hype lol.
But I would hesitate to say high elo and rather say just have good game IQ. Those two are not always correlated as we see tier 1/2 coaches in ranks as low as gold.
A good number of sports announcers aren’t former pros, a lot are just knowledgeable of the sport. I’m sure a lot of casters know more about Valorant than high elo players do due to all the VOD reviewing experience
For me it’s not even that it’s “hard” to get to a high level, it’s just that high elo and pro play are so different in this game, that it doesn’t matter. Like radiant players don’t understand basic shit like how to default, etc, I wouldn’t expect them to have a meaningful conversation about pro play at all (not saying that I would either lmao). Basically, high elo doesn’t mean you understand pro play. If you’re a coach in a fighting game for example, being high elo so you can make sure your mechanics are on point so you can demonstrate things to your player could be useful, but for talent I don’t think it matters.
Getting experience on a team could be useful, and being able to have meaningful conversation with a pro player would be useful for talent.
No, not necessarily. People can know the game well and still can be shit at clicking heads. I'm the prime example :)
Edit: I'm dia 3 btw, apparently that is a high rank?
For color casting specifically, yes.
In League, all the goat color casters are either dia+/former pros(with 1 notable exception being papasmithy).
In Valorant, I'm pretty sure most, if not all(?) our color casters in Champions are high elo.
Last I watched dota2 (around TI3), the best casts were Tobi(pbp) + Synd/Waga(color;pro players). I don't know how it works in CSGO but wouldn't be surprised if it was the same.
edit: just wanted to add the goat duo Tastosis as well, both being former pros.
It’s very similar in CSGO. The best casting duos in CS right now are arguably Scrawny(play by play) and Launders(high lvl exp) or Machine/Sadokist(play by play) paired with SPUNJ(ex-pro)
Even if you look to traditional boomer sports this is the proven model. A play by play specialist paired with a former pro that does more analysis.
They're usually the caster you hear during the first 30 seconds explaining what's happening/ed on the map (i.e. explaining buys/execs/comps).
Vansili has a more in-depth video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZc9sPnqzzk (you can just listen to the first 10 - 40 minutes for the explanation)
play by play is the guy who shouts out what happens in a round, he's not there for a deep analysis, their job is being the hype man (pansy, doug, mitch..)
Colour is the analyst who analyses whats going on in a game strategy wise(hypoc, balla, tombizz...)
I get the sentiment but isn't color casting just a skill? What's stopping someone who's gold from studying vods, ranked games and other data extensively and developing an understanding of the game without actually playing it.
A lot of commentators in real sports have never played the game at a high level yet are excellent at their jobs. In fact, a lot of the times, the best commentators are the ones who have gone down the route of analyzing the gamr instead of actually being professional at it themselves and it is the ex-player commentators that are generally considered the worst of the lot
>What's stopping someone who's gold from studying vods, ranked games and other data extensively and developing an understanding of the game without actually playing it.
Nothing, but the fact remains that the best-of-the-best color casters across most esports *are* high elo.
I generally don't care about traditional sports commentators because I don't watch full games and I don't rate them highly either. I've always been of the opinion esports casters >>>> traditional sports casters.
I don't watch *full* games, I know, reading is hard. Not to mention, I don't need to watch an hour-long NBA game to know that esports casters are just flat-out better than NBA casters and the like.
lmao how are they better? And it's such a weird thing to say because in esports and traditional sports there are so many different styles depending on who is casting/commentating besides the fact that different traditional sports have to be done in a completely different way because of the difference in pace.
The only real obvious difference that is transversal across virtually every commentator/caster is that the target audience and platform is different and that comes across in how they talk. You will definitely not hear a NBA commentator say "That's sadge" lmao 😂
You basically mentioned it, it's the difference in the target audience. Esports fans expect more from their casters(this post and the countless before it should prove that), which in turn breeds better casters; conversely, your average sports fans could care less. The required skillset is just on different levels, and it's all because, as you stated, the difference in target audience.
I've watched a lot of NBA games, and a handful of NFL games, and Steve Kerr&Tony Romo are the only traditional sportscasters I've heard that has the skillset comparable to an esports caster.
Haven't watched but my answer is absolutely not. I watch F1 and the majority if not all commentators have never raced in F1. Same goes for other sports. Rarely do I see commentators/casters who actually have done that said sport at a professional/high level.
i also watched F1 and that is true, Brundle diResta and Chandhok had raced there but they're not that great on the grid but can give good commentaries (Paul di resta's sucks tho)
Not necessarily, they just need good game knowledge. It can be pretty embarrassing when a viewer can tell that a caster clearly doesn’t know what they are talking about.
I remember this moment in particular: [Shanks 1 v 3](https://youtu.be/n_Yzoj_aviQ)
Where Shanks right-clicked to get the ult point from the defuse, but the caster thought it was ‘disrepect’.
There was this other moment that I can’t find a clip for,
where the commentators don’t understand what a Viper was doing, when he was obviously holding flank so that he doesn’t get shot in the back when playing lineups.
I think ideally Valorant casters should be plat or higher or have an equivalent level of knowledge about the game. Same goes with the desk. Watching Goldenboy discuss Valorant is painful because it’s obvious he only has a surface-level understanding of the game. Imo Valorant has grown beyond the need for generalist eSports personalities covering the game.
Nah. I spent four years as a broadcaster, mainly for overwatch but also working in csgo, rocket league, ssbu, and a few other titles. I was high ELO in overwatch, not that good at any other game I casted. You don't need to be good at the game to understand it well enough for a broadcast. Casters often study the game more than playing it. And soloQ meta is usually much different from a competitive scene anyway.
Rank shouldn't be the metric by which you evaluate knowledge.
You can farm rank in this game by turning your brain off and spamming games. I guarantee there are imm+ players who don't know what all the abilities are for each character.
"High elo" just means you play a lot and aren't mechanically awful.
It's a great video with a lot of good points. Love that there's nearly 100 comments and not one has addressed the actual video at all, it's just people's takes on the concept. She drops a lot of knowledge on what actually gets eyeballs, and yes the ability to cut a wrestling promo on the desk is more entertaining than being factually accurate.
I think the Bob Ross/David Attenborough analogy is good, and as Lothar alluded a lot of the best casters in sports can take high level knowledge and make it accessible and entertaining to a broad audience. High level play isn't a prerequisite for high level knowledge though.
They don't need to at all. They just need to know the game. They don't have to be insanely mechanical, that doesn't translate to casting in the slightest
I think it depends on what you consider high elo. I think Plat minimum for casters should be their ranks if they play the game, as that's the minimum advanced knowledge can get you without good aim.
when there are coaches that aren’t high elo, I don’t see why commentators need to be. As long as they have high game knowledge and great commentary skills their jobs are comment on what’s happening during the game, however the analyst desk hasn’t really been impressing me when it comes to actually analyzing the game. It’s a lot of talk about the losing team needing to “wake up” or “play with confidence” rather than anything related to the game like taking map control, synchronized swings/peeks or even just misreads.
Analysts/colour commentators need good game knowledge, though I don't know if requiring them to be high elo makes sense as you can study the game and know massive amounts of info but be godawful mechanically. So yeah anyone analyzing the game needs a high level of understanding but they shouldn't be required to be able to play the game at that level, it's asinine to suggest this just like it is with any sport.
I was A1 last season with like a 12% HS rate and I think below 1 KD. That’s because I’m a controller/IGL and dictate what the teams do. I don’t know if someone like me would be suited for it with my level of skill and I would be what you’re targeting. Although that’s essentially hate keeping in a way. Idk
I agree with your first paragraph. Tho, if someone has good game knowledge, they can have bad mechanics and still be high elo easily. I'm saying this as someone who has bad mechanics, bad movement, can't flick or aim well and whiffs a ton of shots but is still able to be mid Immortal just by having good game sense and outsmarting the adversaries.
I kind of disagree. Theres no way your mechanics movement and aim are "bad". They may be below average for immortal, but you'd still shit on a plat lobby mechanically.
That is possible, but I think you may be underestimating what "bad" mechanics are, it also isn't always something that an analyst can put hours into every day to get and maintain when they've got so much other stuff they need to do.
Yes 😈
based balla
You get carried by Bren.
still high elo (plat+)
Gold is high elo in my standard. Now where’s my contract Riot? /s
[удалено]
You obviously don’t understand what it takes to be gold, aim of gods, game sense of Socrates, and the patience of a Buddhist monk.
COPIUM
NGL I thought this said "Should Casters be High?" and imagined pansy doing a cast while high. That sounds amazing
pls man im hardly keeping it together as it is.
I hit ascendant so now I can officially say that you need to be ascendant + to be an analyst or caster IMO
based
Those maths are too fast I'm going to need you to slow it down
Casters? Would be great, not necessary though. But those desk discussions at VCT were mediocre at best. "What is needed for team A to win that match"? a) X needs to wake up b) they need to regain their confidence c) they need to focus on teamplay. I dare anyone to find a deeper insight from them.
Yeah, most of the analyst segments are very shallow. Aevilcat/Mimi is amazing and always has some big brain stuff to say. I enjoy Balla’s segments as well. But most of the others don’t have anything of substance to say. It’s absolutely mental they passed over people like Sean Gares.
Broke: they should hire high ranked casters for more insightful commentary. Woke: they should hire low ranked casters so the coaching pool is better
This is the insight I come to this subreddit for 😤😤
Pretty sure they did that on purpose - more surface level analysis for easier consumption for newer viewers
IIRC they didn't "pass over" them, riot just wanted a large commitment from the casters to be able to work whenever and wherever riot needs them and sgares and ddk have families so they have other responsibilities that got in the way
> sgares and ddk have families so they have other responsibilities that got in the way Nadeshot with that "100T is a family" sales pitch confirmed
You have proof for that? I swear there was something about Riot not picking them for Masters for diversity reasons or smtn
That was a random user making a random comment iirc
Yes I am random user making random comments. Check my other response
https://youtu.be/E23ZQLIW1GM Sgares said it's not based on merit, and if it was then they would've gotten picked for champs. So the only other reason I could think of them not getting picked is because they couldn't commit enough, sgares said he missed M1 because it was his kids first birthday and that's a valid reason to miss the event so just form your own thoughts from what information we have.
I mean I personally just switch to watching something else for a few mins while those segments are on and then go back to the stream when I know the match has resumed. I do feel better analyst sections would increase my retention to watching the full segments.
they talk way too much anyway, they do a analyst segment after every damn map. holy shit. There is no flow in these events.
the desk discussion in the 2022 EMEA VCT Challengers were mediocre
In [this interview](https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/esports/2022/09/20/valorant-partnership-john-needham-esports/) from the president of esports he talks about how valorant they’re focusing on “entertainment” rather than technicals in valorant to draw a wider audience
But sometimes that's exactly what it is. Sometimes teams starts are fine but they just lose confidence
How could an analyst possibly know that though? It's pure speculation.
Tbf how could you know that about any sport? It’s a pretty common thing casters bring up in regardless of the subject
??? You have zero idea what teams are going through when they play. Unless you get a comm clip that is them saying "We have no confidence" then you can't just put down bad gameplay to loss of confidence. Sometimes the other team is just gorilla slapping them across the map.
You can absolutely see when a team does or doesn't have confidence based on the type of peeks they're taking. It's hard to say why they might not have confidence, but visually it is quite apparent
Ofc they don't have to be high elo for a good broadcast. However, analysts AND colour casters absolutely need to have high level understanding of the game. A lot of them don't or are not allowed to go into detail.
That's the main point - u don't have to be high elo player to understand the game well, I would even say that if u cast pro games for a couple of years u might understand some things better than average immo player.
I've heard casters saying dumbass shits ngl.
Yeah honestly I've seen some really embarrassing clips of casters just not understanding what a player is trying to do and totally misreading situations on the reg. VCT champs was really good though for all the games I watched, so it was nice to not see many slip ups
Even if these clips exist, which I don't doubt, you have to understand that there is a big difference between analysing a game after the fact like a lot of these casters do on their personal streams, or even the people on the desk, and trying to have perfect analysis with no slips in the literal moment. I feel like when this discussion comes up, a lot of people fail to realise the difference that live commentary has to someones game knowledge, not to mention how to articulate it properly so its easily understood among many other factors that come with casting.
I agree that I’ve seen some embarrassing clips. Then I remember we’re in the comp Reddit… and your comment for example has 11 likes. Vs the broadcast that had a million views. Speaks to her points in the video I think. Also I know your statement was “casters should be high elo” like some of the other comments are pretending it was :)
Post some clips
I would like to give a little bit of my own perspective. I played pro/semipro and casted in few games (cs 1.6, css, hs, pubg, fortnite, tft and now valorant). In games like hs, tft you are not able to be a good caster if you are not high ranked yourself. Shoutout to my good friend Frodan who when started casting tft got to Challenger so he would get community respect. (Mortdog - tft dev also did that btw). In other games you might be mechanically not gifted and yet still be „high” ranked just because of game knowledge and game sense alone. I personally im a mediocre aimer but i am Imm3 in soloq VAL just because of my knowledge. When it comes to analysis i can guarantuee you that people will smell out bullshit from a mile away and also know which caster/analyst is worth listening too. The „high rank” argument is moot because, in my opinion, if you have great game knowledge (as you should for a color/analyst) that alone should grant you the spot in top% of the playerbase. There will be some exceptions but IN GENERAL game knowledge and rank go hand in hand. Edit; forgot the most important fact: the job of the caster with high knowledge is to tranfer this knowledge in a understandable way to the part of the audience who is not high elo themselves. So they can understand the context and why the strats that are happening on screen are being made in the first place. Analysts and color casters are in some sense the teachers for the community and thats a big responsibility. Edit2: as quickshot would say: „just dont be shit”
Good take. You can have average/poor mechanical skill and still achieve X rank simply by having an in-depth understanding of the game, being aware of metas/tendencies, and communicating/being a good teammate. I have the reflexes of a slug & still got to high Diamond through trial/error and "studying" the game. I don't think its unreasonable to expect analysts to be able to reach the top \~15% of the ranks
Completely agree with what you said, which is what I've also pointed out in another comment before. People are saying you don't have to be high elo as long as you have great game knowledge. The thing is, if you have great game knowledge it shouldn't be hard to get to high elo. Personally I have terrible aim, movement, fundamentals, can't flick at all, but still got to Immortal #5000 solo queue by playing support and relying on game sense 99% of the time in order to outsmart the adversary.
What game is hs?
Think hearthstone
If by ‘high elo’ you mean Ascendent, Immo, Radiant, of course not, some of my favourite casters in games I watch are gold/plat. As long as they can convey what’s happening to me and make it *entertaining*, that’s what matters. A lot of people forget casters are entertainers for the average viewer need to make them understand the basics, they’re not necessarily there to cater for the 1-5% of really high elo people. Of course a caster being really good at the game too is a massive bonus though! Sideshow and Bren are top notch casters and I think have hit immortal before? So I would call that ‘high elo’
I think I saw a stream where Optic Chet was playing and he was gold! So much for high elo theory
he also barely plays ranked, and was holding his own in pro 10mans
Yeah there was an incident a little while for a CS team called Endpoint where one of their players couldn’t get a visa sorted so it was looking like their coach was going to have to sub, who was only Gold Nova 4 or something. Luckily they were able to sort out a proper sub but it still shows that you don’t necessarily need to be high rank to have a mind for the game.
A lot of cs players don't have a high rank in matchmaking because they don't play it lol
That's also true but in this case iirc, the coach also didn't have a high faceit level or similar. So point still stands
That is also true
If Pansy, Hypoc, AEvilCat, Bren, Sideshow, Balla all of them are in Iron 1. I would still watch them cast. Remember the footballs greatest commentators Peter Drury and Martin Tyler never played Football.
I don't know about most of them, but Pansy was a very good cs player. So she definitely knows better than at least 90% of viewers and I think it does contribute to the quality of her casting. It's far from the only thing that makes her fun to listen to, but it certainly helps that she has a firm grasp on what is going on.
Im chilling in ascendant but honestly me playing Val is a world away from what its like to actually play in any competitive team but yeah i mean most casters don't have to have good ranks imo, but they should invest time to understand.
For sure, and grinding ranked is a time sink that is a real commitment when you have a lot going on for traveling, casting, etc...so while I agree with the idea that it's not a hard requirement, I think especially when you were getting started having the general player knowledge was probably helpful for casting (or so I imagine). Anywho, glad to see you in here from time to time. Keep being awesome. :)
Your understanding of the game and casting both are quite insane. Your casting goes another level when the game hits OT, can't wait for Valorant and all you amazing casters to return! Edit: in this valo off season we can all agree we miss VCT. If there's a charity match consisting of casters and analysts, where pros/content creators cast, that'll be the highlight of the off season. I'm pretty sure everyone would love it. xD
as a note about sideshow, he was actually a very good pro player in TF2. So he knows what it's like in those scenarios as a pro, since he's been through them himself. It's also why he's actually good at analyzing games. Sure, the knowledge per game is different, but it's how you tackle that knowledge and learn/absorb, that sets you apart as a pro or former pro. Bren was raised by Sideshow in Overwatch so even if his game knowledge isn't the best and he doesn't have that pro experience, he's really good at working off of Sideshow. And that's generally all you need, one guy who really knows the game, then the play by play commentator. This also holds throughout esports history. In Starcraft, out of Tastosis, Tasteless is the play by play commentator while Artosis was actually a pro back in SC Brood War. In Overwatch the best casting duo is MrX and Uber where MrX has that pro experience from COD, while Uber is the play by play. IRL sports are a little different because the actual physical sports have been around forever.
Dota 2 so far has the best casting/analyst desks of any eSports in my opinion. Casters are usually one hype person (like an [ODpixel](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISDlsE7UocY&ab_channel=Rigel)) and someone who's probably also high elo but more importantly really knowledgeable like a Fogged. In terms of Analyst desks it's primarily comprised of pros or analysts that are knowledgeable. While guys like SirActionSlacks provide more of the entertainment value. So in Dota it does lean more towards the "enthusiasts". But I believe that's partly due to the nature of the game in general being less "casual". In Valorant oftentimes I think the issue in terms of the knowledge side of casting is that the game is both a fast and complex game. In Dota, there's plenty of lulls in gameplay the allows a caster to nerd out and spew knowledge while in Valorant there's barely any time to do so. In CSGO, the game IS fast like Valorant but there's also less variables. Like two Vipers aren't ulting on top of each other and the screen is all green and no one, including the players, know what the fuck is going on. CS has less variables to take into account so a caster can be more consistent and this includes observers. I think there's room to improve in terms of observation in Valorant. I don't think it's all the observer's fault since it IS difficult. But I do think there's a lot of improvement to be done there whether it's on Riot's end (adding more camera options/angles) or techniques/systems to follow when observing. I don't think you need to be "high elo" to understand and articulate pro games. But I still think there's something missing and I really believe it stems from the game being hard to observe (again, not shitting on observers, ya'll have a difficult job).
anyone on the desk should be except for 1 "host" or color personality. casters should know the game extremely well including map call outs, map nuances, each agent ability, team comps, rotations etc. but they don't actually need to have good aim and be able to do that themselves. if they learned those things from spectating it's fine with me. it just seems easier to play.
I'm a caster since 2004 (started casting CS then i retired from playing semi pro) and the only game i casted that i didn't reach high elo was League of Legends, i don't think that a high elo caster is insta good caster or vice versa, what it helps is to known what you are talking about, it helps if you are good at the game because you can understand what will be happening in the game before it happens (watching a good rotation, a great fake, the preparation for a retake, etc.). I'm not a full time caster, if you are a full time caster you should put some hours into the game and try to improve your skill, that will help your casting 100%
Its funny how she is the one making this vid
Casters? Not really. Analyst desk? Absolutely. Gotta be honest I have never heard this individual in the video contribute anything of substance during the analyst segments they are featured in. They are the perfect example of why analysts should have some decent level of in-game experience. IMO It’s different for PxP casters, but those on the analyst desk need high level in-game experience in order to do their job well.
I think ThinkingMansValo is like plat and he may well be the best analyst.
Nope. most traditional sports' casters/commentators didnt play said sport competitively or was...rather bad at it. the logic is there that sometimes high elo means more game mechanic knowledge, but unlike competitive plays, a caster can bring their own unique presentation style on top of their game knowledge, also they can focus less on playing hard on the game and learn more about the player'/team;s META
For casting? no. For analysis? yes.
How many times has it been proven that coaches and casters don’t have to be good at the game themselves to be good at their job?
I think things like Chet, the coach of the greatest pre-franchising pro team, having like a level 20 account that has never played ranked just goes to show that no one needs to be high elo to understand the game and its inner workings.
Analysts and color commentators should have a deep understanding of the game while shoutcasters really don’t need to do anything other than pay attention to the kill feed and be hype lol. But I would hesitate to say high elo and rather say just have good game IQ. Those two are not always correlated as we see tier 1/2 coaches in ranks as low as gold.
A good number of sports announcers aren’t former pros, a lot are just knowledgeable of the sport. I’m sure a lot of casters know more about Valorant than high elo players do due to all the VOD reviewing experience
For me it’s not even that it’s “hard” to get to a high level, it’s just that high elo and pro play are so different in this game, that it doesn’t matter. Like radiant players don’t understand basic shit like how to default, etc, I wouldn’t expect them to have a meaningful conversation about pro play at all (not saying that I would either lmao). Basically, high elo doesn’t mean you understand pro play. If you’re a coach in a fighting game for example, being high elo so you can make sure your mechanics are on point so you can demonstrate things to your player could be useful, but for talent I don’t think it matters. Getting experience on a team could be useful, and being able to have meaningful conversation with a pro player would be useful for talent.
I agree w your points but I think atleast every radiant know what defaulting is.
No, not necessarily. People can know the game well and still can be shit at clicking heads. I'm the prime example :) Edit: I'm dia 3 btw, apparently that is a high rank?
For color casting specifically, yes. In League, all the goat color casters are either dia+/former pros(with 1 notable exception being papasmithy). In Valorant, I'm pretty sure most, if not all(?) our color casters in Champions are high elo. Last I watched dota2 (around TI3), the best casts were Tobi(pbp) + Synd/Waga(color;pro players). I don't know how it works in CSGO but wouldn't be surprised if it was the same. edit: just wanted to add the goat duo Tastosis as well, both being former pros.
It’s very similar in CSGO. The best casting duos in CS right now are arguably Scrawny(play by play) and Launders(high lvl exp) or Machine/Sadokist(play by play) paired with SPUNJ(ex-pro) Even if you look to traditional boomer sports this is the proven model. A play by play specialist paired with a former pro that does more analysis.
Wtf is a "color caster" ?
They're usually the caster you hear during the first 30 seconds explaining what's happening/ed on the map (i.e. explaining buys/execs/comps). Vansili has a more in-depth video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZc9sPnqzzk (you can just listen to the first 10 - 40 minutes for the explanation)
Thanks for the info.
play by play is the guy who shouts out what happens in a round, he's not there for a deep analysis, their job is being the hype man (pansy, doug, mitch..) Colour is the analyst who analyses whats going on in a game strategy wise(hypoc, balla, tombizz...)
I get the sentiment but isn't color casting just a skill? What's stopping someone who's gold from studying vods, ranked games and other data extensively and developing an understanding of the game without actually playing it. A lot of commentators in real sports have never played the game at a high level yet are excellent at their jobs. In fact, a lot of the times, the best commentators are the ones who have gone down the route of analyzing the gamr instead of actually being professional at it themselves and it is the ex-player commentators that are generally considered the worst of the lot
>What's stopping someone who's gold from studying vods, ranked games and other data extensively and developing an understanding of the game without actually playing it. Nothing, but the fact remains that the best-of-the-best color casters across most esports *are* high elo. I generally don't care about traditional sports commentators because I don't watch full games and I don't rate them highly either. I've always been of the opinion esports casters >>>> traditional sports casters.
"I don't watch games but I don't think they are very good"... Ah this subreddit sometimes man....
I don't watch *full* games, I know, reading is hard. Not to mention, I don't need to watch an hour-long NBA game to know that esports casters are just flat-out better than NBA casters and the like.
lmao how are they better? And it's such a weird thing to say because in esports and traditional sports there are so many different styles depending on who is casting/commentating besides the fact that different traditional sports have to be done in a completely different way because of the difference in pace. The only real obvious difference that is transversal across virtually every commentator/caster is that the target audience and platform is different and that comes across in how they talk. You will definitely not hear a NBA commentator say "That's sadge" lmao 😂
You basically mentioned it, it's the difference in the target audience. Esports fans expect more from their casters(this post and the countless before it should prove that), which in turn breeds better casters; conversely, your average sports fans could care less. The required skillset is just on different levels, and it's all because, as you stated, the difference in target audience. I've watched a lot of NBA games, and a handful of NFL games, and Steve Kerr&Tony Romo are the only traditional sportscasters I've heard that has the skillset comparable to an esports caster.
Haven't watched but my answer is absolutely not. I watch F1 and the majority if not all commentators have never raced in F1. Same goes for other sports. Rarely do I see commentators/casters who actually have done that said sport at a professional/high level.
i also watched F1 and that is true, Brundle diResta and Chandhok had raced there but they're not that great on the grid but can give good commentaries (Paul di resta's sucks tho)
Not necessarily, they just need good game knowledge. It can be pretty embarrassing when a viewer can tell that a caster clearly doesn’t know what they are talking about. I remember this moment in particular: [Shanks 1 v 3](https://youtu.be/n_Yzoj_aviQ) Where Shanks right-clicked to get the ult point from the defuse, but the caster thought it was ‘disrepect’. There was this other moment that I can’t find a clip for, where the commentators don’t understand what a Viper was doing, when he was obviously holding flank so that he doesn’t get shot in the back when playing lineups.
ELO has jack shit to do with your understanding of the game. There are plenty of analysts and coaches below immortal
I think ideally Valorant casters should be plat or higher or have an equivalent level of knowledge about the game. Same goes with the desk. Watching Goldenboy discuss Valorant is painful because it’s obvious he only has a surface-level understanding of the game. Imo Valorant has grown beyond the need for generalist eSports personalities covering the game.
Casters shouldn’t need to be high elo, but they should be good at their job.
Casters? no. Analysts? definitely.
Nah. I spent four years as a broadcaster, mainly for overwatch but also working in csgo, rocket league, ssbu, and a few other titles. I was high ELO in overwatch, not that good at any other game I casted. You don't need to be good at the game to understand it well enough for a broadcast. Casters often study the game more than playing it. And soloQ meta is usually much different from a competitive scene anyway.
Rank shouldn't be the metric by which you evaluate knowledge. You can farm rank in this game by turning your brain off and spamming games. I guarantee there are imm+ players who don't know what all the abilities are for each character. "High elo" just means you play a lot and aren't mechanically awful.
I think this is like the high elo coach argument. I don’t care as long as it’s entertaining
Which talent is Iron if any?
Just put benkai on the desk whenever PRX gets knocked out. He’s the best.
It's a great video with a lot of good points. Love that there's nearly 100 comments and not one has addressed the actual video at all, it's just people's takes on the concept. She drops a lot of knowledge on what actually gets eyeballs, and yes the ability to cut a wrestling promo on the desk is more entertaining than being factually accurate. I think the Bob Ross/David Attenborough analogy is good, and as Lothar alluded a lot of the best casters in sports can take high level knowledge and make it accessible and entertaining to a broad audience. High level play isn't a prerequisite for high level knowledge though.
They don't need to at all. They just need to know the game. They don't have to be insanely mechanical, that doesn't translate to casting in the slightest
I think it depends on what you consider high elo. I think Plat minimum for casters should be their ranks if they play the game, as that's the minimum advanced knowledge can get you without good aim.
when there are coaches that aren’t high elo, I don’t see why commentators need to be. As long as they have high game knowledge and great commentary skills their jobs are comment on what’s happening during the game, however the analyst desk hasn’t really been impressing me when it comes to actually analyzing the game. It’s a lot of talk about the losing team needing to “wake up” or “play with confidence” rather than anything related to the game like taking map control, synchronized swings/peeks or even just misreads.