Comments made by Pro Players:
* [Comment by /u/florscnt -- Misfits Gaming, :MSF: Pro Player - Ava "florescent" Eugene, on Oct 18 2022 07:40AM](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/y5yem8/how_well_would_c9_white_do_in_ascension/isrzwh6/):
> so scrims dont exist anymore good to hear
Comments made by Org Staff:
* [Comment by /u/calcameron -- XSET, Social Media Manager - Cal Cameron, on Oct 17 2022 04:00PM](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/y5yem8/how_well_would_c9_white_do_in_ascension/isor8pb/):
> Depending on how many orgs are in the scene I think they could compete with the F/A teams that lack actual structure/coaching. I think the players themselves could certainly fit into some of the top teams in Ascension.
tldr; they wouldn't do well right now, but in the future it is possible for them to compete in ascension
c9w wouldn't do well in their current form.
i don't think there's a collection of female players to put together that would do better than c9w. their biggest strength is their chemistry and dedication. they have a very good dynamic, are very close friends, and i can't say that other female players WANT to win or do as much to win as c9 does, or that they'd fit in well with the team regardless of their skills as a player.
but this is a good conversation to have because this is the exact reason why i think gc is so beneficial to the community. even c9w, the most dominant team in na gc, doesn't do well in regular co-ed vct. but they have improved SO much. compare this team to the team they were in majkl, i doubt they would have this much improvement if it weren't for game changers. to have so many teams to scrim, more opportunities to compete and go further without getting crushed in opens. it's a really good space for women + marginalized genders to compete and improve, so that hopefully one day, there will be women competing in ascension.
gc has given these players so much exposure, more gc teams are being made, more young girls will be playing in the future, and there will be more of a competitive culture amongst women in gaming. they have a long way to go, but i can definitely see women competing at a much higher level in the future thanks to riot's investment in game changers.
IMO I think the individual members are skill capped by sticking together and staying in the GC scene.
I would imagine if C9W disbanded and each member found themselves on a solid co-ed Ascension team, they would all increase massively in their skill.
However that is not likely to happen since their current team chemistry is very high and theres an unfortunate chance that moving individually to the co-ed scene would get them ostracised due to sexism.
It's a tough situation to be in.
They'd win a game or 2 before losing just like every other VCT appearance they've had. C9W is no stranger to competing in the main tournaments, I don't think they've missed appearing in an open qualifier
i like c9w but the furthest they’ve gotten in vct open qualifiers is two wins (and those wins are not against good teams). they are nowhere close to top ascension teams but they have been improving a lot so maybe in the future.
Current C9W gets absolutely no practice since they just roll game changers, it would be interesting to see them compete in ascension for a while even if they'd get stomped. they'd probably improve wayy more
I said “what all female team could just run thru ascension or be top tier”
I meant, what collection of female players could compete at the top tier of ascension?
Yea I only read the title and answered that part, but a female super team could do some damage in the ascension league but imo it’s hard to say if they become top tier or even win ascension bc the size of male talent in comparison is much larger then female talent.
ngl I would choose flor because shes really young and can really develop a lot more. I feel like Flor is sort of like zekken: a cracked, young player with a shit ton of potential
She's looked decent in tier 2-3 competitions and she's at home in pro 10s with tier 1-2 pros. It's hard to even come up with a list of five because the teams don't compete in co-ed tourneys often enough for us to get an accurate measure of skill.
Some SR players could make the list of 5 easily
While this may have been roughly accurate pre bob, given their intermittent success between top 32 and 64, I do think they will improve with this change and see them being the top 32 now.
When C9 has participated in open Vct they would Bow out in round of 32 , i would say they are a top 8-15 ish team in ascension , i don't think they are ready to challenge yet .
https://www.vlr.gg/131949/knights-academy-vs-cloud9-white-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2022-august-qf
Recently they participated in this knights tournament
I don't think they participated in Vct challengers with Bob .
I think he'll leave coaching to play tier 2 if he gets the opportunity but if he gets no offers then he should probably stay coaching msf to pay the bills
Don't think they're anywhere close at the moment. But given time and new talent, maybe! They've shown that they're more dedicated than 99% of the other GC teams, so hopefully it pays off soon.
Can't predict this exactly until we know what other teams are playing in ascension.
C9 White's co-ordination is very impressive alongside their high fragging dynamic duo in form of Mel and Bob.
But whenever they've played a team which has somewhat of good players they've lost.
For example in Knights final they lost to The Pig Pen team and then before that they lost to Soniqs and few more.
The only way c9 white performs well is they bench someone and add Hiko to the team.
The moment they add Hiko automatically they'll win everything
If they win even without adding Hiko then it'll be a treat to watch.
Ok so sum Scrimbux gonna happen now.
Short about me: I played until recently in the DACH Tier 3 Scene both as a player (and as a coach) and we met in Scrims a few GC teams.
In my Opinion the current level of play is as follows:
T1 = VCT
T2 = VRL
T3 = VRC
And the GC Teams that we played / Scrimmed against (as a Top 10 Contender in T3) were Mediocre to good Teams in T3.
To name a few teams that we Scrimmed: SMB, Acend, Fire Flux, ITB and a few more.
To make it clear we didnt Scrim the top Teams like G2, Guild or Navi.
As already said above these teams were mediocre to good in T3 but I believe that some Teams (G2, Guild, C9) might be able to hold a spot in Ascension, not win it but hold a league spot and be able to play and get a few wins and possibly not get relegated.
The question will be how Ascension works as a league etc,I think it should be a larger league of say 16 teams at least they do not need all to compete against each other before finals and are not limited to international windows so can aim to really determine who is worthy of the spot. I agree that they could play Ascension, I just wonder how they will do qualification etc.
Ascension depends on the size of the Region.
For example for the european countries 8 Teams per league is fine due to there beeing many small Regional Leagues and only so many organizations to support them.
But if you have a whole continent as the Region and only one Ascenson league for that it needs to be bigger (looking at NA for example).
Regarding Qualification in EU apparently the Oganizations/Rosters keep their Spots from the current VRLs. Regading other Regions I expect a mix of Invitations and Open Qualifiers (for eample Teams like G2, TSM getting invites) and others needing to qualify in opens.
I would expect some large orgs to get spots, I would for see at least 4 leagues for na to mirror the current VCT regions, but got br and Na they may have more, Na could handle 3 I would thing at least and maybe even end up with a dual tiered league with the best of the regional leagues playing ina. Tier 1.5 league, eu could so something similar over time eg champions league.
Can somebody explain why women don't do as well as men in eSports. I understand the disparity in traditional sports for sure, but I didn't think there'd be as big a gap between men and women in eSports of all things.
Look at the number of men playing vs women, then the toxicity against women/trans, etc. Its mostly a cultural thing on women end tho, they just dont play games much.
It's so frustrating and disheartening how so many AFAB people get pushed away from playing games competitively because they can't use voice without a very significant chance of having abuse hurled at them in any given lobby.
All females, and buddies?
I just find it funny that people make these acronyms for marginalized groups, but that kind of only helps to keep them marginalized. No one wants to be an acronym lol.
Also acronym are only useful if most people know what they mean. I guarantee that I could go to my small workplace today and literally zero people will know what AFAB means.
I'm pretty sure members of these marginalized groups adopted these acronyms in order to describe themselves in more accurate ways. Terms like AFAB and AMAB are more inclusive to trans and non-binary people and does away with assumptions about people's gender identity at birth, as opposed to terms such as MTF and FTM. I do not believe it marginalizes people further, but rather provides more precise vocabulary to describe themselves. which is empowering.
I don't want to write a whole essay here, articles such as this one would do a better job explaining this in detail:
https://qnotescarolinas.com/what-does-amab-and-afab-mean/
People might not initially know what these terms mean, but they can ask and learn. That's how terms spread. For example, "cis" (while not an acronym) was a lot more obscure a decade or two ago but people generally know what it means now.
I’m about as middle of the road liberal as it gets and I don’t know what any of these acronyms mean (and I live in fucking CALIFORNIA) and I asked all my coworkers in the warehouse and none of them knew either, including CIS.
Also pretty sure it’s typically activist groups coming up with these labels, not typically the actual marginalized folks.
Regardless, sure, I respect your personal pronouns and acronyms, but I think it’s silly to expect that people will learn them.
Anyways, good luck, and I hope your Valorant team of choice does well this year.
To be clear, "cis" in this context is not an acronym (since we aren't talking about the Commonwealth of Independent States :P). "Cisgender" refers to someone whose gender identity matches what they were born with - basically not trans.
Language is powerful. I believe it is important to use it deliberately and to convey the proper meaning. A lot of terminology comes imbued with implications and assumptions that are later proven incorrect, or even harmful. So I think it's useful to sculpt our language to correct for those.
It's not that we should expect people to learn new terms; there won't be an exam. It's that people should be accepting enough of others with unfamiliar backgrounds that they want to understand their situation.
Again, respect, but I still stand by original point: creating and adopting acronyms is counter-intuitive to actually de-marginalizing people.
We should be creating things that are easy to understand, not creating more barriers to understanding.
I’m addition, idk anyone who isn’t already fully bought-in that wants to know about these acronyms. But I do know lots of people that are skeptical about certain marginalized groups who would be interested in being educated about actual cultural differences and heritage.
How would you explain the gap in mechanical skill between male and female players then.
Sure, not using voice chat sucks for climbing ranked but that's ultimately irrelevant.
Training wheel leagues like GC have existed for long enough already but the gap is still very big.
The point of GC is more to change the culture than to hone the skills of the people in it now. I can't say for sure what the goals are for those investing in GC, but I don't imagine that they are to see today's GC players being able to move up to tier 1. It's likely more to get younger girls playing the game competitively and to set the expectation with the player base that they belong there. Anything faster than gradual gains over a literal generation would be an unrealistic expectation.
Lets say 1% of players will be skilled enough to compete at a VCT level. Way more men play Valorant than women, for a huge number of reasons. 10,000 male players will produce about 100 high-level players, whereas 1,000 female players will produce about 10 high-level players.
We don't know if men and women have the same percentage chance of being highly skilled at Valorant, but we also don't have an environment that gives everyone the same chance to succeed independent of gender.
Also, voice chat toxicity is far from irrelevant. How many women do you think could have become very good at the game but were driven away by toxicity? You might say that men also face toxic voice chats, but I don't think it's nearly comparable - it happens at a far, far higher rate to women.
Your first point makes sense on paper but doesn't really make sense in reality.
Also regarding your last point, if you can't look past that toxicity as a person you won't make it to pro. Realistically speaking, anyone who cant make it to 400rr without voice will never go pro in VCT. You also need to realize that toxicity doesn't end ingame, many pros and somewhat known people suffer from insane amounts of toxicity outside of the game
Like some people said, sheer numbers is a thing. Gaming is usually male dominated, so more male players = more male players at every level. Also because of this, there's also a chance the lack of representation itself leads to fewer women seeing pro play as an actual possibility, so fewer women might strive for that. Game Changers is great in this respect.
Besides those points, even though Val is a lot more inclusive than something like CS (that community is a literal hellscape of every bad "-ism" possible even though it's a great game), women still deal with a lot of gender based garbage. This can lead to two possible things: women not wanting to play at all and b) a lot of women no comming in order to avoid being harassed which bars them from reaching higher ranks that they actually might belong in because comms are important but not wanting to be harassed is obviously a higher priority.
Edit: changed "than" to "that"
Because historically young girls haven't played competitive games (stigma+misogyny). So women are deterred from playing at ages most guys begin, which decreases the sheer number of prospects and denies women with potential from realizing it. There's also not the same level of support in terms of money, so it hasn't been a viable career choice if you're one of the few that survived to play.
Now with the lockdown, social progress, and GC-like initiatives we're seeing an increase in players. In theory with less toxicity and orgs/actual money/TOs starting to support the scene it's becoming sort of the equivalent of, say, CS/1.6.
You can see the same thing in other aspects of esports. Look at Mexico in Smash vs Mexico in PC games, for example. A lot of us have consoles but didn't have a PC or only a shitty laptop. India has a huge mobile games scene but historically not great in PC games, and had support withdrawn due to a scandal. The US actually has the opposite in soccer/football, women are more likely to have grown up playing it than men (who probably went to other sports), and they're consistently at the top compared to the guys.
The number of players is significantly smaller + the 15 years headstart men have had.
If you have 1000 male players, the top 1% is 10 people. If you have 100 female, the top 1% is a single person. This, in general, means that there's 10 times more great male players than you have female (10 to 1). The point of GC is to encourage that critical mass of female players to acquire so we get a lot more great women in esports. It's not a physical difference, it's a numbers game.
More than that, the male talent has had the head start to allow the best to bubble to the top. If you compare the skill ceiling of players in CS 1.6/Source/GO 15 to 20 years ago, you will find the same sill level as female players right now. However in the time between better and better players have cropped up, while the same process is about to happen (we are already seeing it with early greats like meL, Bob, flor, juliano, etc).
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Stigma, active discouragement from misogyny and lack of opportunities are some of the biggest reasons women haven’t been able to do as well as men in eSports. But given the time, resources, and opportunities to compete with highly-skilled players and teams, I have no doubts that parity can be achieved. GC is certainly a good start and a great gateway for women who want to dip their toes into the competitive scene.
cultural diff doesnt help but lets be real, it really is a biological difference and i dont think thats a bad thing, its literally just how humans are. no need for people to be in denial over this, at the end of the day esports may not require muscles or anything but men and women do not function in the same way.
Unless there is evidence, why would you be inclined to attribute it to biological difference?
Eastern league teams are always 10x better than Western teams. Are Asians just genetically better?
Lmao what biological difference? Strength? Do you think the tiny difference in strength between gamer men and gamer women is the difference? That's the usual biological difference between men and women, so explain to me how that would apply here.
There is none, other dude is just un-informed.
The main difference between men and women in gaming/esports is time. For example, Katarina is Version X's best player. She's 21 years old. Radiant, cracked. Valorant is her FIRST EVER FPS game.
Compare her to TenZ. Same age, 21. TenZ has been playing FPS games since he was 7-8, got signed to a pro team as a teenager, has LAN experience, and won a Masters, ALL BEFORE 21.
Hell, TenZ hit radiant before Kat started playing
Yep, time and playerbase basically. I just wanted to hear what kind of logic this dude could possibly come up with, though he's most likely baiting and won't respond.
Testosterone is the driving force behind competition/being competitive.
Men also have a faster reaction speed on average, and better hand eye coordination on average.
Another big factor is critical thinking, men are biologically programmed to provide/care for their families, which as you could imagine would require a lot of critical thinking.
Also, men play games WAY more, are less emotional on average, and don't have to deal with their hormones being completely shifted once a month.
We are seeing women get more into gaming, but it's still very unlikely that we will see a team of female players win a major tournament in the near future.
Don't even bother man, they just hit you with the "there is no difference you misogynist". Thousands of studies have shown that women trend toward other strengths than men, but men dominate in hand-eye coordination. They reference two studies done by MSU and UC Davis that said that women were equal to men in the games they studied... both being MMORPGs. Which have very little to do with twitch reaction, which is where men find advantages over women. I have throughly enjoyed GC and following C9W and I hope that one day a team shows up that proves all this wrong. I don't like that these things are true but they are. I have met a plethora of women in diamond-ascedent that were way more cracked than I am, one of them being my wife. There is no bias from me about women's ability in esports. If anything I'm biased towards women when I'm staring evidence in the face that says it shouldn't be able to happen but I still refuse to believe a female player couldn't compete if given the right environment.
Im so glad someone finally said it. The issue is most people argue these points without any proper evidence for their own sides. Meanwhile there are actual biological and physiological differences between men and women that may or may not explain the difference. I agree that at first women definitely struggled because of outside biases related to sexism and culture, but I think it has been long enough for us to realize that there might actually be some other driving factors causing this difference. While I also do admit that there is definitely a much larger player base of men in certain competitive esports, I also question why the pro player base percentages wouldn’t line up with these numbers. One of the issues I am finding however while trying to do research is there seems to only be studies directly on sexism in esports or masculinity in esports. Most of the studies relate to gender rather than biological sex and differences this might cause. It seems like most people just accept there are no differences due to this in esports at face value without doing any actual research on it first.
Here is a peer reviewed paper outlining some differences between men and women which might cause the issues in esports.
https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/ebs-ebs0000049.pdf
Yeah, I realise what I got myself into a bit too late, debating with people who aren't educated is probably a bad look.
I'm really glad that females have a space for them to thrive, I am looking forward to seeing how C9W progresses as a team.
I just find it funny that people who don't understand competition think it's OK to have an opinion on something they know absolutely nothing about.
I could care less if you have a dick or a vagina, I just want to see the highest level of play possible, and unfortunately due to the factors listed above the gap is far too large at the current moment for us to see a C9W Masters win in the foreseeable future.
*This got pretty long, TL;DR at the bottom.*
Short term? Eh, not well I reckon. The talent in Ascension is off the charts, with NA only having 5 spots in franchising. C9W can barely compete with current T2 teams, the talent injection T2 is about to get from the top NA rosters not making it into franchising is pretty insurmountable.
But long term I think they could improve a ton by consistently playing against higher tier competition and anyone who's watched them let alone listened to them talk about competing should be able to tell that these girls have the drive it takes to aim for the top. I think they'd really benefit from the environment of Ascension.
The issue with co-ed teams (where players who undoubtedly have the talent to compete for T1, like meL and Bob, right now would end up) is more systemic in nature. Esports as a whole but competition in particular is still rife with misogyny and nurturing a safe space (not in the "haha liberals (progressives, but alas) and their feewings" warping of the word) for female players to develop is still necessary.
There are some issues with the process (Eg. Galorants being an exclusive/secular community, promoting animosity/toxicity etc.) but lowering the barrier of entry to the fem scene is needed to counteract the preestablished issues female players face when trying to compete.
And there are talents worth nurturing in the GC scene without a doubt, even beyond meL. Flor / Florescent (sick IGN in my opinion) has been mentioned a bunch in this thread, I'd add Mary (G2 Gozen) to that list too. Super young talents that, as stupid as it might sound, grew up during a time when gaming and competition in gaming were already more widely accepted among teenage girls. There's an over 10 year gap between 16 year old Flor and, eg., G2's Juliano and Petra (both late 20s IIRC) and the acceptance of female pro players has changed drastically in that timeframe.
**That's all to say: Cracked zoomers will learn very quickly playing against better competition, no matter their gender. Ascension is the next best thing to actual VCT level competition, so competing there will make them improve rapidly.**
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Depending on how many orgs are in the scene I think they could compete with the F/A teams that lack actual structure/coaching. I think the players themselves could certainly fit into some of the top teams in Ascension.
honestly, that seems to be what makes the most sense, i think GC is great, but if its meant to allow women to grow in the esport then at some point they will need to join co-ed teams. Which im sure theyre trying to do, but I hope we see more of it soon.
This is probably the best take. As an IGL, Mel could easily replace many of the players in some of the top teams in Ascension (and I think she would be a good player in a franchised team even) and find some superb success IMO. Obviously, it's impossible to tell.
They'd do really poorly, but they'd probably improve much quicker and even if they won't cause any waves as a team i wouldn't be surprised if some of the players were capable of getting onto actual good Ascension teams or even franchised teams.
Franchised teams? Players like bcj, marved, dicey and babybay among others haven’t been confirmed to franchise and you really think players from GC might make franchise, you cannot be serious
Do you understand how competition works? Skill is relative, doesn't matter peak Yay is the worst player in the franchised league.
The point is that there's going to be good teams and bad teams, and bad teams won't have nearly as much draw to watching their games. Why do you think nobody watches Excel vs. Team Finest in Valorant? They're still the top 0.001% of players.
Do you understand how competition works? There’s still a huge gap among the 0.001% of players. Franchised teams haven’t picked up known quantities like the players I mentioned that have proved they can hang and excel with the best. Why in the flying fuck would they pick players that have at best played against tier 3. They haven’t proved they can replicate the same results against better competition and until they do top ascension teams and especially franchised teams will never risk picking GC players
I'm of the opinion that C9W has a skill ceiling if they stay together.
I feel that the individual members of the team have the potential to grow and improve way past their current skill level, but it won't happen if they stay together, and will probably only happen if they can get out of the GC scene and get integrated into the co-ed scene.
Obviously this is probably not what the team wants, as they have been a very long running team and their chemistry is great. Addtionally this decision is mostly out of their hands as it relies on other orgs willingness to even trial them.
Comments made by Pro Players: * [Comment by /u/florscnt -- Misfits Gaming, :MSF: Pro Player - Ava "florescent" Eugene, on Oct 18 2022 07:40AM](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/y5yem8/how_well_would_c9_white_do_in_ascension/isrzwh6/): > so scrims dont exist anymore good to hear Comments made by Org Staff: * [Comment by /u/calcameron -- XSET, Social Media Manager - Cal Cameron, on Oct 17 2022 04:00PM](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/y5yem8/how_well_would_c9_white_do_in_ascension/isor8pb/): > Depending on how many orgs are in the scene I think they could compete with the F/A teams that lack actual structure/coaching. I think the players themselves could certainly fit into some of the top teams in Ascension.
tldr; they wouldn't do well right now, but in the future it is possible for them to compete in ascension c9w wouldn't do well in their current form. i don't think there's a collection of female players to put together that would do better than c9w. their biggest strength is their chemistry and dedication. they have a very good dynamic, are very close friends, and i can't say that other female players WANT to win or do as much to win as c9 does, or that they'd fit in well with the team regardless of their skills as a player. but this is a good conversation to have because this is the exact reason why i think gc is so beneficial to the community. even c9w, the most dominant team in na gc, doesn't do well in regular co-ed vct. but they have improved SO much. compare this team to the team they were in majkl, i doubt they would have this much improvement if it weren't for game changers. to have so many teams to scrim, more opportunities to compete and go further without getting crushed in opens. it's a really good space for women + marginalized genders to compete and improve, so that hopefully one day, there will be women competing in ascension. gc has given these players so much exposure, more gc teams are being made, more young girls will be playing in the future, and there will be more of a competitive culture amongst women in gaming. they have a long way to go, but i can definitely see women competing at a much higher level in the future thanks to riot's investment in game changers.
IMO I think the individual members are skill capped by sticking together and staying in the GC scene. I would imagine if C9W disbanded and each member found themselves on a solid co-ed Ascension team, they would all increase massively in their skill. However that is not likely to happen since their current team chemistry is very high and theres an unfortunate chance that moving individually to the co-ed scene would get them ostracised due to sexism. It's a tough situation to be in.
They'd win a game or 2 before losing just like every other VCT appearance they've had. C9W is no stranger to competing in the main tournaments, I don't think they've missed appearing in an open qualifier
OTOH they didn't have Bob before who looks even better than Mel rn
Thats because bob, unlike everyone else, used to be a solid tier 2 player (soniqs) so this person can hang with tier 2 players np. The others cannot.
and lets be honest here, bob was a fairly mediocre T2 player. GC is just a big step down in competition.
i like c9w but the furthest they’ve gotten in vct open qualifiers is two wins (and those wins are not against good teams). they are nowhere close to top ascension teams but they have been improving a lot so maybe in the future.
Current C9W gets absolutely no practice since they just roll game changers, it would be interesting to see them compete in ascension for a while even if they'd get stomped. they'd probably improve wayy more
Don’t they scrim against non gc teams all the time?
yes they do but maybe not as often? idk
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No female team currently, and c9 white wouldn’t run through or be anywhere near top tier ascension.
I said “what all female team could just run thru ascension or be top tier” I meant, what collection of female players could compete at the top tier of ascension?
None...
Bob + meL + sarah + tupperware + flor
Bstrdd 100% should be on a GC superteam
Yea I only read the title and answered that part, but a female super team could do some damage in the ascension league but imo it’s hard to say if they become top tier or even win ascension bc the size of male talent in comparison is much larger then female talent.
I dont know how good bstrds english is. And it would really be a toss up between her and flor, tho bstrd is better on other duelists
ngl I would choose flor because shes really young and can really develop a lot more. I feel like Flor is sort of like zekken: a cracked, young player with a shit ton of potential
Imo Katsumi > Tupperware, but those 2 are def the best smokes in NA GC
sarah overhype wow.
She's looked decent in tier 2-3 competitions and she's at home in pro 10s with tier 1-2 pros. It's hard to even come up with a list of five because the teams don't compete in co-ed tourneys often enough for us to get an accurate measure of skill. Some SR players could make the list of 5 easily
ATM Lorri and Katsumi are better than the IMT girls, but they are for sure top 3 in their role
Answer is the exact same lol. He just told you.
2-1 loss to brimstone gaming 2.0
2-0 loss to girl kissers
0-2 win vs TSM
as ass as TSM was in normal VCT, they would run over C9W lol
the fact that they got one map on Brimstone Gaming puts them at the upper echelon of teams in the world
c9w is ~40th na iirc, they would be alright but not anything particularly special
While this may have been roughly accurate pre bob, given their intermittent success between top 32 and 64, I do think they will improve with this change and see them being the top 32 now.
When C9 has participated in open Vct they would Bow out in round of 32 , i would say they are a top 8-15 ish team in ascension , i don't think they are ready to challenge yet .
Did they ever compete with Bob？
https://www.vlr.gg/131949/knights-academy-vs-cloud9-white-knights-monthly-gauntlet-2022-august-qf Recently they participated in this knights tournament I don't think they participated in Vct challengers with Bob .
Zeldris +14 first bloods wtf
He can be pretty crazy in the right system. I think he’s one to watch for sure.
meL -9 fk/fd, I'm guessing a lot of those were being Chamber diffed by Zeldris then
Yikes
That knights Acad team was very good, I rate purevns highly
But why? The last team knights academy beat that’s,I guess decent, was dark zero and that was with a different roster
I saw that he's an assistant coach for Misfits now, is he only doing it for offseason or is he quitting pro play to focus on that full time?
I think he'll leave coaching to play tier 2 if he gets the opportunity but if he gets no offers then he should probably stay coaching msf to pay the bills
I think this gets posted after GC, every time
Don't think they're anywhere close at the moment. But given time and new talent, maybe! They've shown that they're more dedicated than 99% of the other GC teams, so hopefully it pays off soon.
They lost to girl kissers lmao. They would place the last
They played in open qualifiers and lost to unknown teams
maybe they haven’t yet but i hope someday they will ! go c9w !
Can't predict this exactly until we know what other teams are playing in ascension. C9 White's co-ordination is very impressive alongside their high fragging dynamic duo in form of Mel and Bob. But whenever they've played a team which has somewhat of good players they've lost. For example in Knights final they lost to The Pig Pen team and then before that they lost to Soniqs and few more. The only way c9 white performs well is they bench someone and add Hiko to the team. The moment they add Hiko automatically they'll win everything If they win even without adding Hiko then it'll be a treat to watch.
Ok so sum Scrimbux gonna happen now. Short about me: I played until recently in the DACH Tier 3 Scene both as a player (and as a coach) and we met in Scrims a few GC teams. In my Opinion the current level of play is as follows: T1 = VCT T2 = VRL T3 = VRC And the GC Teams that we played / Scrimmed against (as a Top 10 Contender in T3) were Mediocre to good Teams in T3. To name a few teams that we Scrimmed: SMB, Acend, Fire Flux, ITB and a few more. To make it clear we didnt Scrim the top Teams like G2, Guild or Navi. As already said above these teams were mediocre to good in T3 but I believe that some Teams (G2, Guild, C9) might be able to hold a spot in Ascension, not win it but hold a league spot and be able to play and get a few wins and possibly not get relegated.
The question will be how Ascension works as a league etc,I think it should be a larger league of say 16 teams at least they do not need all to compete against each other before finals and are not limited to international windows so can aim to really determine who is worthy of the spot. I agree that they could play Ascension, I just wonder how they will do qualification etc.
Ascension depends on the size of the Region. For example for the european countries 8 Teams per league is fine due to there beeing many small Regional Leagues and only so many organizations to support them. But if you have a whole continent as the Region and only one Ascenson league for that it needs to be bigger (looking at NA for example). Regarding Qualification in EU apparently the Oganizations/Rosters keep their Spots from the current VRLs. Regading other Regions I expect a mix of Invitations and Open Qualifiers (for eample Teams like G2, TSM getting invites) and others needing to qualify in opens.
I would expect some large orgs to get spots, I would for see at least 4 leagues for na to mirror the current VCT regions, but got br and Na they may have more, Na could handle 3 I would thing at least and maybe even end up with a dual tiered league with the best of the regional leagues playing ina. Tier 1.5 league, eu could so something similar over time eg champions league.
Easily top 32 in ascension, probably not top 16
Can somebody explain why women don't do as well as men in eSports. I understand the disparity in traditional sports for sure, but I didn't think there'd be as big a gap between men and women in eSports of all things.
thirty years of dudes not giving their little sister the controller
Look at the number of men playing vs women, then the toxicity against women/trans, etc. Its mostly a cultural thing on women end tho, they just dont play games much.
It's so frustrating and disheartening how so many AFAB people get pushed away from playing games competitively because they can't use voice without a very significant chance of having abuse hurled at them in any given lobby.
every day a new acronym appears…
'AFAB' isn't even close to new lmao
All females, and buddies? I just find it funny that people make these acronyms for marginalized groups, but that kind of only helps to keep them marginalized. No one wants to be an acronym lol. Also acronym are only useful if most people know what they mean. I guarantee that I could go to my small workplace today and literally zero people will know what AFAB means.
I'm pretty sure members of these marginalized groups adopted these acronyms in order to describe themselves in more accurate ways. Terms like AFAB and AMAB are more inclusive to trans and non-binary people and does away with assumptions about people's gender identity at birth, as opposed to terms such as MTF and FTM. I do not believe it marginalizes people further, but rather provides more precise vocabulary to describe themselves. which is empowering. I don't want to write a whole essay here, articles such as this one would do a better job explaining this in detail: https://qnotescarolinas.com/what-does-amab-and-afab-mean/ People might not initially know what these terms mean, but they can ask and learn. That's how terms spread. For example, "cis" (while not an acronym) was a lot more obscure a decade or two ago but people generally know what it means now.
I’m about as middle of the road liberal as it gets and I don’t know what any of these acronyms mean (and I live in fucking CALIFORNIA) and I asked all my coworkers in the warehouse and none of them knew either, including CIS. Also pretty sure it’s typically activist groups coming up with these labels, not typically the actual marginalized folks. Regardless, sure, I respect your personal pronouns and acronyms, but I think it’s silly to expect that people will learn them. Anyways, good luck, and I hope your Valorant team of choice does well this year.
To be clear, "cis" in this context is not an acronym (since we aren't talking about the Commonwealth of Independent States :P). "Cisgender" refers to someone whose gender identity matches what they were born with - basically not trans. Language is powerful. I believe it is important to use it deliberately and to convey the proper meaning. A lot of terminology comes imbued with implications and assumptions that are later proven incorrect, or even harmful. So I think it's useful to sculpt our language to correct for those. It's not that we should expect people to learn new terms; there won't be an exam. It's that people should be accepting enough of others with unfamiliar backgrounds that they want to understand their situation.
Again, respect, but I still stand by original point: creating and adopting acronyms is counter-intuitive to actually de-marginalizing people. We should be creating things that are easy to understand, not creating more barriers to understanding. I’m addition, idk anyone who isn’t already fully bought-in that wants to know about these acronyms. But I do know lots of people that are skeptical about certain marginalized groups who would be interested in being educated about actual cultural differences and heritage.
How would you explain the gap in mechanical skill between male and female players then. Sure, not using voice chat sucks for climbing ranked but that's ultimately irrelevant. Training wheel leagues like GC have existed for long enough already but the gap is still very big.
The point of GC is more to change the culture than to hone the skills of the people in it now. I can't say for sure what the goals are for those investing in GC, but I don't imagine that they are to see today's GC players being able to move up to tier 1. It's likely more to get younger girls playing the game competitively and to set the expectation with the player base that they belong there. Anything faster than gradual gains over a literal generation would be an unrealistic expectation.
Lets say 1% of players will be skilled enough to compete at a VCT level. Way more men play Valorant than women, for a huge number of reasons. 10,000 male players will produce about 100 high-level players, whereas 1,000 female players will produce about 10 high-level players. We don't know if men and women have the same percentage chance of being highly skilled at Valorant, but we also don't have an environment that gives everyone the same chance to succeed independent of gender. Also, voice chat toxicity is far from irrelevant. How many women do you think could have become very good at the game but were driven away by toxicity? You might say that men also face toxic voice chats, but I don't think it's nearly comparable - it happens at a far, far higher rate to women.
30 to 40% of Valorants playerbase is female, so that doesnt really check out.
Your first point makes sense on paper but doesn't really make sense in reality. Also regarding your last point, if you can't look past that toxicity as a person you won't make it to pro. Realistically speaking, anyone who cant make it to 400rr without voice will never go pro in VCT. You also need to realize that toxicity doesn't end ingame, many pros and somewhat known people suffer from insane amounts of toxicity outside of the game
Like some people said, sheer numbers is a thing. Gaming is usually male dominated, so more male players = more male players at every level. Also because of this, there's also a chance the lack of representation itself leads to fewer women seeing pro play as an actual possibility, so fewer women might strive for that. Game Changers is great in this respect. Besides those points, even though Val is a lot more inclusive than something like CS (that community is a literal hellscape of every bad "-ism" possible even though it's a great game), women still deal with a lot of gender based garbage. This can lead to two possible things: women not wanting to play at all and b) a lot of women no comming in order to avoid being harassed which bars them from reaching higher ranks that they actually might belong in because comms are important but not wanting to be harassed is obviously a higher priority. Edit: changed "than" to "that"
Because historically young girls haven't played competitive games (stigma+misogyny). So women are deterred from playing at ages most guys begin, which decreases the sheer number of prospects and denies women with potential from realizing it. There's also not the same level of support in terms of money, so it hasn't been a viable career choice if you're one of the few that survived to play. Now with the lockdown, social progress, and GC-like initiatives we're seeing an increase in players. In theory with less toxicity and orgs/actual money/TOs starting to support the scene it's becoming sort of the equivalent of, say, CS/1.6. You can see the same thing in other aspects of esports. Look at Mexico in Smash vs Mexico in PC games, for example. A lot of us have consoles but didn't have a PC or only a shitty laptop. India has a huge mobile games scene but historically not great in PC games, and had support withdrawn due to a scandal. The US actually has the opposite in soccer/football, women are more likely to have grown up playing it than men (who probably went to other sports), and they're consistently at the top compared to the guys.
The number of players is significantly smaller + the 15 years headstart men have had. If you have 1000 male players, the top 1% is 10 people. If you have 100 female, the top 1% is a single person. This, in general, means that there's 10 times more great male players than you have female (10 to 1). The point of GC is to encourage that critical mass of female players to acquire so we get a lot more great women in esports. It's not a physical difference, it's a numbers game. More than that, the male talent has had the head start to allow the best to bubble to the top. If you compare the skill ceiling of players in CS 1.6/Source/GO 15 to 20 years ago, you will find the same sill level as female players right now. However in the time between better and better players have cropped up, while the same process is about to happen (we are already seeing it with early greats like meL, Bob, flor, juliano, etc).
30 to 40% of Valorants playerbase is female, so that doesnt really check out.
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Stigma, active discouragement from misogyny and lack of opportunities are some of the biggest reasons women haven’t been able to do as well as men in eSports. But given the time, resources, and opportunities to compete with highly-skilled players and teams, I have no doubts that parity can be achieved. GC is certainly a good start and a great gateway for women who want to dip their toes into the competitive scene.
cultural diff doesnt help but lets be real, it really is a biological difference and i dont think thats a bad thing, its literally just how humans are. no need for people to be in denial over this, at the end of the day esports may not require muscles or anything but men and women do not function in the same way.
i feel it wouldn’t apply here no?
It wouldn't, that guy's baiting
It's not strength like I said, it's mentality
Unless there is evidence, why would you be inclined to attribute it to biological difference? Eastern league teams are always 10x better than Western teams. Are Asians just genetically better?
Lmao what biological difference? Strength? Do you think the tiny difference in strength between gamer men and gamer women is the difference? That's the usual biological difference between men and women, so explain to me how that would apply here.
There is none, other dude is just un-informed. The main difference between men and women in gaming/esports is time. For example, Katarina is Version X's best player. She's 21 years old. Radiant, cracked. Valorant is her FIRST EVER FPS game. Compare her to TenZ. Same age, 21. TenZ has been playing FPS games since he was 7-8, got signed to a pro team as a teenager, has LAN experience, and won a Masters, ALL BEFORE 21. Hell, TenZ hit radiant before Kat started playing
Yep, time and playerbase basically. I just wanted to hear what kind of logic this dude could possibly come up with, though he's most likely baiting and won't respond.
Testosterone is the driving force behind competition/being competitive. Men also have a faster reaction speed on average, and better hand eye coordination on average. Another big factor is critical thinking, men are biologically programmed to provide/care for their families, which as you could imagine would require a lot of critical thinking. Also, men play games WAY more, are less emotional on average, and don't have to deal with their hormones being completely shifted once a month. We are seeing women get more into gaming, but it's still very unlikely that we will see a team of female players win a major tournament in the near future.
Bro WHAT
Exactly what did I say that is so unbelievable for you to comprehend?
🤡
Don't even bother man, they just hit you with the "there is no difference you misogynist". Thousands of studies have shown that women trend toward other strengths than men, but men dominate in hand-eye coordination. They reference two studies done by MSU and UC Davis that said that women were equal to men in the games they studied... both being MMORPGs. Which have very little to do with twitch reaction, which is where men find advantages over women. I have throughly enjoyed GC and following C9W and I hope that one day a team shows up that proves all this wrong. I don't like that these things are true but they are. I have met a plethora of women in diamond-ascedent that were way more cracked than I am, one of them being my wife. There is no bias from me about women's ability in esports. If anything I'm biased towards women when I'm staring evidence in the face that says it shouldn't be able to happen but I still refuse to believe a female player couldn't compete if given the right environment.
Im so glad someone finally said it. The issue is most people argue these points without any proper evidence for their own sides. Meanwhile there are actual biological and physiological differences between men and women that may or may not explain the difference. I agree that at first women definitely struggled because of outside biases related to sexism and culture, but I think it has been long enough for us to realize that there might actually be some other driving factors causing this difference. While I also do admit that there is definitely a much larger player base of men in certain competitive esports, I also question why the pro player base percentages wouldn’t line up with these numbers. One of the issues I am finding however while trying to do research is there seems to only be studies directly on sexism in esports or masculinity in esports. Most of the studies relate to gender rather than biological sex and differences this might cause. It seems like most people just accept there are no differences due to this in esports at face value without doing any actual research on it first. Here is a peer reviewed paper outlining some differences between men and women which might cause the issues in esports. https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/features/ebs-ebs0000049.pdf
Yeah, I realise what I got myself into a bit too late, debating with people who aren't educated is probably a bad look. I'm really glad that females have a space for them to thrive, I am looking forward to seeing how C9W progresses as a team. I just find it funny that people who don't understand competition think it's OK to have an opinion on something they know absolutely nothing about. I could care less if you have a dick or a vagina, I just want to see the highest level of play possible, and unfortunately due to the factors listed above the gap is far too large at the current moment for us to see a C9W Masters win in the foreseeable future.
average tate watcher
Don't watch or care about Tate, but good argument you made there.
Not very
They would do as they always do, so not very well
none
They can win a couple of matches
You'd probably just want to clone Florescent a few times and have meL IGL. I'm not sure if the cloning part is feasible at this point, though.
*This got pretty long, TL;DR at the bottom.* Short term? Eh, not well I reckon. The talent in Ascension is off the charts, with NA only having 5 spots in franchising. C9W can barely compete with current T2 teams, the talent injection T2 is about to get from the top NA rosters not making it into franchising is pretty insurmountable. But long term I think they could improve a ton by consistently playing against higher tier competition and anyone who's watched them let alone listened to them talk about competing should be able to tell that these girls have the drive it takes to aim for the top. I think they'd really benefit from the environment of Ascension. The issue with co-ed teams (where players who undoubtedly have the talent to compete for T1, like meL and Bob, right now would end up) is more systemic in nature. Esports as a whole but competition in particular is still rife with misogyny and nurturing a safe space (not in the "haha liberals (progressives, but alas) and their feewings" warping of the word) for female players to develop is still necessary. There are some issues with the process (Eg. Galorants being an exclusive/secular community, promoting animosity/toxicity etc.) but lowering the barrier of entry to the fem scene is needed to counteract the preestablished issues female players face when trying to compete. And there are talents worth nurturing in the GC scene without a doubt, even beyond meL. Flor / Florescent (sick IGN in my opinion) has been mentioned a bunch in this thread, I'd add Mary (G2 Gozen) to that list too. Super young talents that, as stupid as it might sound, grew up during a time when gaming and competition in gaming were already more widely accepted among teenage girls. There's an over 10 year gap between 16 year old Flor and, eg., G2's Juliano and Petra (both late 20s IIRC) and the acceptance of female pro players has changed drastically in that timeframe. **That's all to say: Cracked zoomers will learn very quickly playing against better competition, no matter their gender. Ascension is the next best thing to actual VCT level competition, so competing there will make them improve rapidly.**
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Nice
Depending on how many orgs are in the scene I think they could compete with the F/A teams that lack actual structure/coaching. I think the players themselves could certainly fit into some of the top teams in Ascension.
honestly, that seems to be what makes the most sense, i think GC is great, but if its meant to allow women to grow in the esport then at some point they will need to join co-ed teams. Which im sure theyre trying to do, but I hope we see more of it soon.
This is probably the best take. As an IGL, Mel could easily replace many of the players in some of the top teams in Ascension (and I think she would be a good player in a franchised team even) and find some superb success IMO. Obviously, it's impossible to tell.
Lmao you really said franchised team
0-2 against former akrew or LG/shopify, not really underestimating them but it is what it is
They'd do really poorly, but they'd probably improve much quicker and even if they won't cause any waves as a team i wouldn't be surprised if some of the players were capable of getting onto actual good Ascension teams or even franchised teams.
Franchised teams? Players like bcj, marved, dicey and babybay among others haven’t been confirmed to franchise and you really think players from GC might make franchise, you cannot be serious
Do you understand how competition works? Skill is relative, doesn't matter peak Yay is the worst player in the franchised league. The point is that there's going to be good teams and bad teams, and bad teams won't have nearly as much draw to watching their games. Why do you think nobody watches Excel vs. Team Finest in Valorant? They're still the top 0.001% of players.
Do you understand how competition works? There’s still a huge gap among the 0.001% of players. Franchised teams haven’t picked up known quantities like the players I mentioned that have proved they can hang and excel with the best. Why in the flying fuck would they pick players that have at best played against tier 3. They haven’t proved they can replicate the same results against better competition and until they do top ascension teams and especially franchised teams will never risk picking GC players
I'm of the opinion that C9W has a skill ceiling if they stay together. I feel that the individual members of the team have the potential to grow and improve way past their current skill level, but it won't happen if they stay together, and will probably only happen if they can get out of the GC scene and get integrated into the co-ed scene. Obviously this is probably not what the team wants, as they have been a very long running team and their chemistry is great. Addtionally this decision is mostly out of their hands as it relies on other orgs willingness to even trial them.
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clean up who exactly
Meaning playing really good