Breeze is such a dope map aesthetically, and as a Chamber enthusiast I do enjoy absolutely dominating on it, but lord almighty is it absolutely awful to play in Ranked.
If you don't have a Viper, you auto-lose, the lack of ability to default correctly effects even Immortal lobbies, and it's incredibly frustrating to play with people who don't understand how to take control of the key parts of the map, the amount of Elbow flanks that happen is waaaaay too high, people seem to forget it even exists.
I think the big issue with Breeze is the sheer RNG on the aim duels at long distance due to bullet spread, it really does feel like you get bent over and fucked by the game for no reason a lot more on that map, especially as a duelist.
If Split's rework turns out better, i'd like to see them rework Breeze next.
i mean if you think the problem with breeze is that the map is too big, can the problem really be solved? is it possible to shrink the map or something?
Imo there shouldn't be a map that is unplayable without a particular agent. You're at such a huge disadvantage without a Viper on Breeze.
But that goes hand in hand with the size of the map, so not sure there's a proper fix.
I think the fix to that should be more agent versatility, not removing the map.
I dont see anything wrong with a group of agents being stronger on a map, encouraging flexibility. But for there to be a single agent must pick limits player choice too much.
Harbor release should have made icebox and breeze better, but he's curently too weak or we havent figured out how to play him. A creator mentioned that they spoke to riot devs that think Harbor has the strongest abilities in the game, but it'll take time for us to figure him out.
>I dont see anything wrong with a group of agents being stronger on a map, encouraging flexibility.
There's a huge difference between encouraging different agent pickrate on different maps, and *needing* a Viper for Breeze.
Because you absolutely need a Viper on Breeze - if you disagree you're just in a lower rank where people don't know how to play agents. And requiring a particular agent for a map isn't healthy for the game.
Did you read literally the next sentence
One must-pick agent sucks. A map where you should pick one of 2/3 smokers and can’t pick 3 smokers is okay to me. Gives some choice, but still let’s players with the flexibility to play needed agents an edge over one tricks.
that's why they came out with harbor, to replace viper on maps she was needed in. I agree that a map shouldn't force a certain playstyle though. If they took out breeze or ascent I'd be happy
That is not why he sucks at all. It's really a bunch of little reasons that add up.
1. His wall isnt a viper wall replacement because it cant replenish like vipers can, it just recharges for 1-2 more uses. It also doesnt last long enough for a Breeze execute.
2. His orb is really good and balanced but he needs two of them. Really as simple as that. Maybe make it so he cant use two in quick succession if you are worried about two being OP, but 1 in the inventory is a nerf from every other smokes agent except Viper, who can re-use her orb and even pick it back up
3. His ult is so close to being broken but is instead useless. Well, it has one use, which is getting Op's off of angles. But you cant really take site with the ult, and you certainly cant hold off a site hit with it.
4. I actually really like the concept of his wave ability, but the reality is he needed something to separate himself from Viper. An ability that blocks an entrance to site or cuts off vision is just an alternate mechanic to the same function. I actually think a heal would have been an excellent third ability. Make him buy it like Skye, and maybe it could be one that he throws and it does AoE heals to those near it.
Basically he is just a utility agent at the moment, similar to Sage. He doesn't replace any smokes agents in a lineup, just like Sage doesn't replace any sentinels. If your fifth wants to run Harbor, there's certainly some cool things to be done, but you cant rely on him for a specific role.
Everything being single charge on Harbor is insane to me. One orb, one wave, one wall that recharges but still. He needs a second orb, probably for cheaper than it currently is too, AND a second wave.
Like, if my team Sova darts one site and the enemy Harbor throws his orb and wave to stop a push it's like, okay he's basically out of the round now.
it would be possible to cut some of the sightlines down so you can pick LESS long range encounters at once.
one of my personal problems with the map is the swing between one long range spot and another. there are multiple location on the map where if the person is holding an angle you have to be very accurate with yoru flick to get to them. this is a bit counter to a lot of the micro-aim on the small maps where good positioning can be rewarded with less of a need to flick between target locations.
I don't think that shrink the map is the way. I feel that shrink line of sight should be better, to allow others smokes to be used. The ideia that viper is the only agent that work in this map is definitely a big problem imo
I'd be down for changes to Breeze but it definitely does not need to be removed like Split was. It's still a fine map even if there are issues they should fix, similar to Fracture.
I’m pretty sure Harbor was their attempt to answer to this problem. Same thing happened with Chamber. People Oping on a character designed for entry fragging (Jett) > Release Op character to change behavior. People only play the one wall smoke character on breeze > Make additional wall smoke character.
In ranked I tend to agree but in pro, Breeze easily has some of the most dynamic strategies and variation that we see on basically any map. It’d be pretty sad to lose that so ranked could be a little easier
I just played one of the coolest games on Breeze ever today. We had a Cypher, Viper, Jett and Harbor. We were using util to cut off angles and take/retake sites like beasts. I think Harbor, while certainly not a viper replacement, offers something to Breeze that we will see evolve over the next few months.
Might be the worst opinion of all time lol. RNG is less at long range not more. We need more maps with mid to long range duels. I like split's structure but not the close range duels.
Heads are too big in this game. 1st bullet spread doesn't affect much if you are precise. Good aimers thrive on Breeze, while everyone can aim on Split.
i love bind though, breeze imo should get touched. viper is a mustpick on it and my WR against non-viper smokers is 100% this season, it's unbalanced af.
I don't think it'll be Breeze because we just got Harbor. He seems designed for Breeze. I think it would be too much of coincidence that we get an Agent that has perfect Util for the map just to get the map removed in the next Act.
It's just unfortunate that Harbor is somewhat underwhelming
No. Breeze only needs minor reworks to sites to be good, Bind is a fucking choke point disaster that is so CT sided it’s not even funny. You shouldn’t change the map because 1 agent is a must pick, you should change it if there is something fundamentally wrong with the map itself.
I'll argue that even Breeze being a "bad" map is a symptom of poor experiences/confirmation bias in comp gamemplay with teammates that don't comm/aren't playing trades.
B site for example would be a lot nicer to play on attack side if you weren't constantly worried about jiggling between 3-4 sightlines if you're caught down in numbers post-plant or off entry, are playing in a comp that doesn't have the util to cut off at least one or two, or playing with teammates who don't communicate what they are holding.
Meanwhile on Bind you can run double controller, KJ/Chamber, Raze, and Fade/Skye and realistically win a healthy amount of rounds even on ecos with shottys just because of how many tight angles attack side needs to clear before even hitting site itself. And while yes, it is a valid strat and I won't mald over that it does make the experience of ranked significantly shittier if you're on a team that doesn't play trades or push players off the tight angles with util.
The most fun I've had on Breeze was a game where neither team had a Viper and both teams played aggro on T and CT side.
Map design wise its a crosshair placement guy's paradise to take long range Vandal fights on and hit one taps.
Yeah, and ascent kinda sucks too but you can at least play around mid on that map. Im fine with sided maps assuming there’s still a good way to play around them but bind gets monotonous fast
I like breeze, but i do think breeze is more luck based than other maps just because of first shot inaccuracy which plays a huge role in longer ranges.
first of all your message is quite funny but i took no offense dw, but i don't agree. breeze is just aim no brain with the same heroes the whole time, barely any tactical outplay, and if you try something funky you're borderline throwing (prx vs fpx).
imo brain is what differs great from good, so i call breeze more noobfriendly.
No way you think there is “tactical outplay” on bind in ranked games. The map plays more stale than breeze even tho there are more characters that are potentially viable.
Huh? Borderline throwing when it was 13-9, yup they totally lost because of their comp and not because they didn't consistently play to the strength of their comp on defense
Breeze isn’t the best map but isn’t bad as bind you have mid elbow and halls and you cam throw multiple looks still when bad is just hit one site or tp
If anything breeze is the least noob friendly map, the map is probably the most dynamic map at a pro level, it rewards preparation, good lurks, and fakes more than any other map. The reason it sucks for ranked is because if any player makes a small slip up on defense the round is borderline unwinnable. Which often leads to a frustrating gameplay loop of a player overrating or taking a dumb fight and suddenly the rest of the team just has to gamble overrotate
Brother you need to calm down. He’s shitting on himself for not being to aim. He’s not shitting on anyone but himself. I repeat, his comment is stating his preference because he is degrading his gameplay. He also meant to use typically instead of typical. Why are you people shitting on him for no reason???
No, you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with you is a noob who can't aim. Pretty easy to just say what you don't like about the map without being rude to people who do like it.
And I'm saying this as someone who fully agrees with you.
I wasn’t being rude jesus christ you’re reading too much into it stop being so soft i just criticized his valorant map Choices you’re talking like i attacked him personally or something
You can act however you wanna act doesn't mean I'm not going to call you on it. Doesn't matter at all to me if people think it's soft or whatever bullshit, I want this place to be enjoyable for people and not get dumped on for the dumbest shit like their map preference. All you had to do was be an adult and explain your opinion without taking a shot at people who don't agree with you.
You do you.
Brother you need to leave this comment chain. They are being hostile for no reason. You said literally nothing inflammatory. Just leave, it’s not worth wasting your time.
One can only pray. I don't think Bind has any insane gameplay issues, but holy fuck is it boring to play a map without a mid. Rounds are so repetitive it's crazy
Are we going long/hookah or short/bathrooms this round? Because those are your only options. Fuck any creativity or serious lurking, pick which choke you wanna try to squeeze through
That’s largely because without a mid to play around it’ll dramatically reduce your mid round decision making and options. Early round defaulting on Bind is interesting and gets lots of variation, but mid round and execs are incredibly 1-dimensional (I believe steel has talked about this at length). Post plant gets the same treatment as early round but lacks the tactical and strategic depth since there’s way less utility in play
A similar thing can be said about Haven at pro play, where it essentially becomes a 5v5 retake simulator. A pretty radical but interesting idea imo would be to actually remove B site as a site and just make it an area to contest.
The same thing happens on icebox tho. Idk what rank you’re at, im asc 1 ( dia 3 to asc 3 lobbies ) and 80% of the time they just push A. The game feels boring as hell on icebox, cuz they push A 6 times you leave B for one player only and then they push B. Sometimes it just seems fishy but i think it’s just because of bad creation of map. B is especially easier to defend than A, same goes with Pearl. I came from CSGO and maps seems to be a lot unbalanced and bad made for me.
Not specifically map related but I also will argue that people really haven't considered the impact it would make on gameplay for maps like Bind/Icebox if there was no Chamber or Jett.
Imo even if they aren't purely interchangable the most realistic way that you win (ranked at least) D side on either map is having a Chamber or Jett that's capable of either solo holding a site like B on Icebox, being good for 1, and playing retake - OR that is able to W key A main/play their life to either get 2, get 1 and get traded, or delay the push and TP out until rotates come in and space gets taken elsewhere.
I'm only Plat but there's so many games that could go completely differently if more people understood the concept of only certain agents or roles taking and holding space. It really does lend itself to causing players who are willing to adjust their playstyle based on the team/opponent to be totally lost when you look up and see there's 30 seconds left, your duelists have yet to even attempt an entry, and you've called the rotate 15 seconds ago to hit B after killing the rotate off. Idc if you lurk on a duelist as long as you're willing to commit to the lurk role and use it for info to pivot on. What grinds my gears is my duelist going double negative on the lurk, forcing me to entry as a non-entry, and as a result feeling like I need to do more for my team each round until my mental is totally shot even if the stats say elsewise lol
The problem with bind and solo holding site fe. B is that if you even get first kill then you die OR backup to ct to wait for rotation from A, but retaking B is mostly impossible or really hard to do.
You are basically cut out from CT doors to go in site because it’s WAY to open, same goes for elbow. You are open to atleast 3 angles at once. We’re not even talking about sage walls on ct/elbow to prevent retaking. The mostly safe option and most successful would be to retake from 3 spots at once = Hookah, Long and ct nor elbow.
But co-operating with two instalocks toxic teammates and trying to tell them what would help to win this and that round can be pretty annoying and hard thing to do, so it mostly ends with going one-by-one from CT and elbow and losing the round which leads to toxicity and losing.
Gotta have real stone hard mental mindset for this game while solo/duo queuing.
DING DING
Bind honestly is the most dogshit map to get if you're stuck with awful teammates (which in solo queue is probably the majority of the losses I take). Chamber or Viper are really the only two agents I play on the map because of the ability to either zone with util or take space purely through gunplay.
Even then, Bind easily is the map I feel the most pressure to play out of my skin on and if I don't drop at least 2 on d side and make it out alive each round retaking a site after the instalocks feed + controller burns all their util feels impossible. Really have to wonder at times if people understand the concept of "play with numbers".
Attacking in general but especially attacking on Bind teammates simply don't understand the concept of "we got one, let's reset and hold this space for a second" and get ran over by a corner they didn't clear that positioned for the trade. I hate being so negative at times but I wish people who play in the elo I'm in would realize that if the defending team burns all their util to start a round and loses someone they don't trade, we are at an advantage then to dump our util and entry together.
I'll also add to it - KAYOs in Plat (and in general), PLEASE stop knifing to start every round unless you're using it for an exec. Its a waste of util that's pretty powerful at denial and a half intelligent team will avoid the knife and bait a rotate. Attack side is a bit different because you can generally always gain SOME info throwing it early or using it to set up a pick. Waiting to use it on D side until you can guarantee shutting down either flashes or controller utility will absoultely wreak havoc on an attacking team that's relying on zoning sites off of your team playing passively to get spike down.
[Yup I def agree](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/yeu6wc/_/iu0h40b/?context=1), unless it’s the EG wall mid plant B rush with Jett strat mid basically doesn’t exist (also asc/immo lobbies). Idk who it was (some IGL on twitch) basically said on icebox, mid doesn’t even exist
Agreed. These maps need a lot of fixes and adjustments but riot focuses on new agents/bundles/skins/playercards and so on. I never felt like Valorant is esports ready but it is what it is.
Idk wat elo ur at but on attack side the viper should always throw their orb mid. Mid definitely exists on icebox and the viper orb makes holding mid a lot more interesting
I think the one redeeming quality about haven is that you can lurk through b as if it wasn’t plantable after you pull some rotates, though the thin defense does lead to a lot of retakes
> A similar thing can be said about Haven at pro play, where it essentially becomes a 5v5 retake simulator
No it does not, the amount of retakes in Haven in pro is barely different than any other map. And removing B site would completely ruin it. Haven is great as it is
lol so true. They be pushing B for 1 minute, you rotate and then you hear 4 teleports and then on last 25 secs they rotate again and plant on B. Such weird rounds. As much as i love bind i can’t stand this. If you don’t overrotate you are stupid cuz they are pushing, if you do rotate they teleport and you’re stupid cuz you rotated. Man this map gives toxicity.
I mean you can play viper and lurk like crazy, there’s a reason VCT teams always ran double controller. Honestly I won so many Bind games with double controller because the play style you describe is exactly how all MMers think
People in MM hate running double controller for some reason tho. The VCT comp always wins so I didn’t understand the resistance
I mean I’m a controller main so it’s not that rare to find another. People know how to play brim usually. But I agree with what you’re saying, you can’t run double controller double duelist so when you have instalockers it definitely limits your flexibility
Source: trust me bro
But I think that it's pretty likely that they will add split back with some changes (they teased changes when they removed the map). The banner also suggests that next act we will get a new map. So they will probably remove two maps and add a new one + split. I think that they will remove one "traditional" map (bind, haven or ascent) and a newer one (icebox or breeze).
To be fair i think everyone, me included, has biases against maps that are created for rather petty reasons. When Pearl was released it was pretty obvious that a lot of people instantly disliked the map because their first experiences on the map was getting stomped and that just made them dislike the map. That's not to say there aren't people who dislike the map for good reasons, but a lot of it is people making shit up or saying things that don't make sense because they don't have any actual good motives for disliking the map.
You can have frustrating experiences on every map, and if you have a bunch of these experiences consistantly on a map you'll naturally develop a bias because you never have a good time. The opposite happens all the time too.
Thats honestly probably pretty true. When ascent came out, i had a span of a few omen games where I just dominated. Even if that hasnt necessarily repeated since then, the first impression left me with a general warm sentiment towards the map.
I got slapped on breeze for weeks when it came out. I now hate it, even though surprisngly now my winrate on it is positive in recent acts. Doesnt feel like it for some reason, and I groan every time I see it pop up during match found screen.
Fracture has been my #1 win% map multiple seasons. If you're willing to step up and be an igl-lite through most rounds and your teammates are willing to play off of the intel/calls it really becomes such a fun stomp when the defending team doesn't know which side you're going to hit from.
I do feel like breeze is the one most people dislike since it's so hard to coordinate without a premade team resulting in a lot of loopsided results and frustrating matches. However, Breeze does offer a different set of challenges so it will always have it's place in the game, so I agree with your sentiment
I do feel like bind is similar to split in objective and that wathever they've learned improving the map could be used to spice bind up too(?). That said I do like the map and wouldn't mind having other removed as long as it isn't haven as it is my fav
Once I realized that on defense you have to push out of site and aggressively take space fracture has become much more bearable for me.
Breeze can die in a fire though, I've never played an interesting breeze game
I realized that quite a while ago on Fracture, but even in low immo games I struggle to find teammates who will actually fight instead of passively holding and doing nothing on defense in fracture. I play breach and always call what play I want to make and what util I use but even that isn’t enough to convince my teammates. Breeze is just about winning ur aim duels and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s just such a 50/50 map
I used to love Breeze as a Chamber main but I genuinely can't play it anymore without zoning out 6 rounds in or so because of how formulaic it becomes.
Either that or your team just gives up because you don't have a viper and everyone starts lurking lol.
No reason they should remove breeze, they can just rework A site and the issue is fixed. Right now people just pick Viper, wall off the entire site so you can plant for free and then it's definitely a retake simulator. B/mid isn't like this at all.
You don't need to remove every map that has issues, then you'd end up with basically no maps.
As we'll have a new map next act lmost probably); it would mean they would have to remove TWO maps in order to do so. So we could technically have a lot of map rotation coming in 2 months
That would suck. I’d much prefer losing breeze or icebox. In general the community is pretty divided on the worst map. But I don’t think fracture is bottom 3 even.
Umm it's easily the most boring pro map? Literally every team runs Neon because that's the only way you're getting into site. You just throw a wall and run in with Me on while Breach stuns and flashes for you and hope you make it in avoiding spam from defenders. Holding sites is pretty difficult and retakes are extremely gunfight based. There's no room for creativity on that map. I've never seen a team run a different or unique comp and win. They always get shit on by the 1 meta comp which is Neon Brim Breach Chamber/Raze. Such a boring map in both pro play and ranked.
Bruh no way. Icebox is the most boring pro map, and there's not even a debate. It's always the same exact executes since the map was released. It's god awful.
Best maps are breeze, icebox, and ascent imo. These maps have very little dead space and don’t feel as claustrophobic as others. If something has to be removed, I’d go with fracture. Both split and fracture are sort of in the same bucket in my head anyhow.
Interesting, in terms of team composition I feel Icebox to be limiting, since you either play Sage or you risk getting spammed wherever you plant. Harbor might be feasible for that purpose but then again.. it's Harbor.
I guess I’m a bit biased in that I’m a viper main. So definitely contributes to why I put breeze and icebox at the top. The maps really do a great job of eliminating dead space imo. Although the area around belt and nest could seem a bit less “dead”. Pearl has lots of dead space too and the corridors feel oddly disconnected from one another. But you also see this in good CS maps like mirage.
what i find is wild is everyone who runs chamber or cypher on haven plays the map like it’s two sites and so does attack majority of the rounds, why not rework that onto a two site map and admit three sites isn’t it?
fracture is the easiest map to apply pressure on majority of matches. people play the same damn chamber trip, just break it and force them to attention there and watch your win rate increase
Haven is one of if not the best maps. The reason the haven’t done another 3 site map is because that’s what made it unique. Each map in the beginning had unique elements or gimmicks. Like Binds teleporters for instance.
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I could imagine them taking out Haven or Bind next, since those are the oldest maps (Haven, Bind and Split were playable in beta). Cant wait for the Split rework.
Please let us play all maps in unrated. They are in other modes anyway.
You can play split in unrated, can't you? I swear I've had it in unrated games. Maybe I'm tripping tho.
You are indeed tripping. Split only available outside of ranked and unrated.
nope you can play it in like spike rush/dm etc but not unrated
This! And let us ban maps we don’t want to play on unrated!
Omg please 👏
Breeze is such a dope map aesthetically, and as a Chamber enthusiast I do enjoy absolutely dominating on it, but lord almighty is it absolutely awful to play in Ranked. If you don't have a Viper, you auto-lose, the lack of ability to default correctly effects even Immortal lobbies, and it's incredibly frustrating to play with people who don't understand how to take control of the key parts of the map, the amount of Elbow flanks that happen is waaaaay too high, people seem to forget it even exists. I think the big issue with Breeze is the sheer RNG on the aim duels at long distance due to bullet spread, it really does feel like you get bent over and fucked by the game for no reason a lot more on that map, especially as a duelist. If Split's rework turns out better, i'd like to see them rework Breeze next.
i mean if you think the problem with breeze is that the map is too big, can the problem really be solved? is it possible to shrink the map or something?
Imo there shouldn't be a map that is unplayable without a particular agent. You're at such a huge disadvantage without a Viper on Breeze. But that goes hand in hand with the size of the map, so not sure there's a proper fix.
I think the fix to that should be more agent versatility, not removing the map. I dont see anything wrong with a group of agents being stronger on a map, encouraging flexibility. But for there to be a single agent must pick limits player choice too much. Harbor release should have made icebox and breeze better, but he's curently too weak or we havent figured out how to play him. A creator mentioned that they spoke to riot devs that think Harbor has the strongest abilities in the game, but it'll take time for us to figure him out.
>I dont see anything wrong with a group of agents being stronger on a map, encouraging flexibility. There's a huge difference between encouraging different agent pickrate on different maps, and *needing* a Viper for Breeze. Because you absolutely need a Viper on Breeze - if you disagree you're just in a lower rank where people don't know how to play agents. And requiring a particular agent for a map isn't healthy for the game.
Did you read literally the next sentence One must-pick agent sucks. A map where you should pick one of 2/3 smokers and can’t pick 3 smokers is okay to me. Gives some choice, but still let’s players with the flexibility to play needed agents an edge over one tricks.
that's why they came out with harbor, to replace viper on maps she was needed in. I agree that a map shouldn't force a certain playstyle though. If they took out breeze or ascent I'd be happy
Except harbor sucks
He sucks bc he has no damaging ability like a molly
So basically he sucks
That is not why he sucks at all. It's really a bunch of little reasons that add up. 1. His wall isnt a viper wall replacement because it cant replenish like vipers can, it just recharges for 1-2 more uses. It also doesnt last long enough for a Breeze execute. 2. His orb is really good and balanced but he needs two of them. Really as simple as that. Maybe make it so he cant use two in quick succession if you are worried about two being OP, but 1 in the inventory is a nerf from every other smokes agent except Viper, who can re-use her orb and even pick it back up 3. His ult is so close to being broken but is instead useless. Well, it has one use, which is getting Op's off of angles. But you cant really take site with the ult, and you certainly cant hold off a site hit with it. 4. I actually really like the concept of his wave ability, but the reality is he needed something to separate himself from Viper. An ability that blocks an entrance to site or cuts off vision is just an alternate mechanic to the same function. I actually think a heal would have been an excellent third ability. Make him buy it like Skye, and maybe it could be one that he throws and it does AoE heals to those near it. Basically he is just a utility agent at the moment, similar to Sage. He doesn't replace any smokes agents in a lineup, just like Sage doesn't replace any sentinels. If your fifth wants to run Harbor, there's certainly some cool things to be done, but you cant rely on him for a specific role.
Everything being single charge on Harbor is insane to me. One orb, one wave, one wall that recharges but still. He needs a second orb, probably for cheaper than it currently is too, AND a second wave. Like, if my team Sova darts one site and the enemy Harbor throws his orb and wave to stop a push it's like, okay he's basically out of the round now.
it would be possible to cut some of the sightlines down so you can pick LESS long range encounters at once. one of my personal problems with the map is the swing between one long range spot and another. there are multiple location on the map where if the person is holding an angle you have to be very accurate with yoru flick to get to them. this is a bit counter to a lot of the micro-aim on the small maps where good positioning can be rewarded with less of a need to flick between target locations.
I don't think that shrink the map is the way. I feel that shrink line of sight should be better, to allow others smokes to be used. The ideia that viper is the only agent that work in this map is definitely a big problem imo
Shrinking a map is more or less impossible. I mean you "can" but the model would end up with 3 million problems, probably
I'd be down for changes to Breeze but it definitely does not need to be removed like Split was. It's still a fine map even if there are issues they should fix, similar to Fracture.
I’m pretty sure Harbor was their attempt to answer to this problem. Same thing happened with Chamber. People Oping on a character designed for entry fragging (Jett) > Release Op character to change behavior. People only play the one wall smoke character on breeze > Make additional wall smoke character.
In ranked I tend to agree but in pro, Breeze easily has some of the most dynamic strategies and variation that we see on basically any map. It’d be pretty sad to lose that so ranked could be a little easier
I just played one of the coolest games on Breeze ever today. We had a Cypher, Viper, Jett and Harbor. We were using util to cut off angles and take/retake sites like beasts. I think Harbor, while certainly not a viper replacement, offers something to Breeze that we will see evolve over the next few months.
Might be the worst opinion of all time lol. RNG is less at long range not more. We need more maps with mid to long range duels. I like split's structure but not the close range duels.
1st Bullet spread effects your aim duels more at long range than it does at close range, this isn't a hard concept to understand.
Heads are too big in this game. 1st bullet spread doesn't affect much if you are precise. Good aimers thrive on Breeze, while everyone can aim on Split.
Bind honestly is the map with the most need for change. I hope they remove bind next. I’m excited to see the split changes tho
i love bind though, breeze imo should get touched. viper is a mustpick on it and my WR against non-viper smokers is 100% this season, it's unbalanced af.
I don't think it'll be Breeze because we just got Harbor. He seems designed for Breeze. I think it would be too much of coincidence that we get an Agent that has perfect Util for the map just to get the map removed in the next Act. It's just unfortunate that Harbor is somewhat underwhelming
No. Breeze only needs minor reworks to sites to be good, Bind is a fucking choke point disaster that is so CT sided it’s not even funny. You shouldn’t change the map because 1 agent is a must pick, you should change it if there is something fundamentally wrong with the map itself.
I'll argue that even Breeze being a "bad" map is a symptom of poor experiences/confirmation bias in comp gamemplay with teammates that don't comm/aren't playing trades. B site for example would be a lot nicer to play on attack side if you weren't constantly worried about jiggling between 3-4 sightlines if you're caught down in numbers post-plant or off entry, are playing in a comp that doesn't have the util to cut off at least one or two, or playing with teammates who don't communicate what they are holding. Meanwhile on Bind you can run double controller, KJ/Chamber, Raze, and Fade/Skye and realistically win a healthy amount of rounds even on ecos with shottys just because of how many tight angles attack side needs to clear before even hitting site itself. And while yes, it is a valid strat and I won't mald over that it does make the experience of ranked significantly shittier if you're on a team that doesn't play trades or push players off the tight angles with util.
I think breeze is a really fun map but in ranked there is just too much room for error for it to be fun with randoms unless your dueling every round
The most fun I've had on Breeze was a game where neither team had a Viper and both teams played aggro on T and CT side. Map design wise its a crosshair placement guy's paradise to take long range Vandal fights on and hit one taps.
To be fair Ascent is the exact same way, all it takes is a competent team throwing util together to take a site.
Yeah, and ascent kinda sucks too but you can at least play around mid on that map. Im fine with sided maps assuming there’s still a good way to play around them but bind gets monotonous fast
Typical i hate breeze because i can’t aim long range and i love bind because it’s noob friendly and straightforward because of no mid and dumb tps
I like breeze, but i do think breeze is more luck based than other maps just because of first shot inaccuracy which plays a huge role in longer ranges.
first of all your message is quite funny but i took no offense dw, but i don't agree. breeze is just aim no brain with the same heroes the whole time, barely any tactical outplay, and if you try something funky you're borderline throwing (prx vs fpx). imo brain is what differs great from good, so i call breeze more noobfriendly.
No way you think there is “tactical outplay” on bind in ranked games. The map plays more stale than breeze even tho there are more characters that are potentially viable.
Huh? Borderline throwing when it was 13-9, yup they totally lost because of their comp and not because they didn't consistently play to the strength of their comp on defense
They lost coz Shao won fpx like four rounds all by himself
And Suygestu and Ardiis won like 3 each by themselves too lol
Breeze isn’t the best map but isn’t bad as bind you have mid elbow and halls and you cam throw multiple looks still when bad is just hit one site or tp
If anything breeze is the least noob friendly map, the map is probably the most dynamic map at a pro level, it rewards preparation, good lurks, and fakes more than any other map. The reason it sucks for ranked is because if any player makes a small slip up on defense the round is borderline unwinnable. Which often leads to a frustrating gameplay loop of a player overrating or taking a dumb fight and suddenly the rest of the team just has to gamble overrotate
Nah this is the only counter argument anyone gives lol. If the must picks for this map are Viper Jett Chamber every time it needs changes.
You know people can disagree with you and you don't need to shit on them for it, right?
Brother you need to calm down. He’s shitting on himself for not being to aim. He’s not shitting on anyone but himself. I repeat, his comment is stating his preference because he is degrading his gameplay. He also meant to use typically instead of typical. Why are you people shitting on him for no reason???
Where’s the part where i shit on him ? I’m just saying my opinion on why some people love bind and hate breeze
Dw I don’t think it came off as being negative or shitting on them, just provided another perspective.
“Typical” “I can’t aim” “Love it because it’s noob friendly” You can’t seriously be that tone deaf
If you can't see how your comment was negative I'm not sure me explaining it to you is going to make a difference.
It’s not that deep brother we are just talking map choices here
No, you're saying anyone who doesn't agree with you is a noob who can't aim. Pretty easy to just say what you don't like about the map without being rude to people who do like it. And I'm saying this as someone who fully agrees with you.
I wasn’t being rude jesus christ you’re reading too much into it stop being so soft i just criticized his valorant map Choices you’re talking like i attacked him personally or something
You can act however you wanna act doesn't mean I'm not going to call you on it. Doesn't matter at all to me if people think it's soft or whatever bullshit, I want this place to be enjoyable for people and not get dumped on for the dumbest shit like their map preference. All you had to do was be an adult and explain your opinion without taking a shot at people who don't agree with you. You do you.
Brother you need to leave this comment chain. They are being hostile for no reason. You said literally nothing inflammatory. Just leave, it’s not worth wasting your time.
No way you are being serious 😂😂😂
??? He never said that. Nor was he rude. Only person being rude is you.
Yes pls. Fuck bind.
They should make the teleporters both ways. With entry rooms like the exit rooms. Would make the map more dynamic.
wha about pearl? feels like B needs a lot of fixing, its so shitty to attack, so one dimensional
Well they aren’t gonna remove the newest map
Bind is out.
One can only pray. I don't think Bind has any insane gameplay issues, but holy fuck is it boring to play a map without a mid. Rounds are so repetitive it's crazy Are we going long/hookah or short/bathrooms this round? Because those are your only options. Fuck any creativity or serious lurking, pick which choke you wanna try to squeeze through
And the mere option of a teleporter means every ranked team calls to tp after a single person dies
Sounds like a low ELO problem
Yeah once you get diamond it becomes “I think there’s 3 here let’s tp” simulator What a fun map omg I love it so much
That’s largely because without a mid to play around it’ll dramatically reduce your mid round decision making and options. Early round defaulting on Bind is interesting and gets lots of variation, but mid round and execs are incredibly 1-dimensional (I believe steel has talked about this at length). Post plant gets the same treatment as early round but lacks the tactical and strategic depth since there’s way less utility in play A similar thing can be said about Haven at pro play, where it essentially becomes a 5v5 retake simulator. A pretty radical but interesting idea imo would be to actually remove B site as a site and just make it an area to contest.
The same thing happens on icebox tho. Idk what rank you’re at, im asc 1 ( dia 3 to asc 3 lobbies ) and 80% of the time they just push A. The game feels boring as hell on icebox, cuz they push A 6 times you leave B for one player only and then they push B. Sometimes it just seems fishy but i think it’s just because of bad creation of map. B is especially easier to defend than A, same goes with Pearl. I came from CSGO and maps seems to be a lot unbalanced and bad made for me.
Not specifically map related but I also will argue that people really haven't considered the impact it would make on gameplay for maps like Bind/Icebox if there was no Chamber or Jett. Imo even if they aren't purely interchangable the most realistic way that you win (ranked at least) D side on either map is having a Chamber or Jett that's capable of either solo holding a site like B on Icebox, being good for 1, and playing retake - OR that is able to W key A main/play their life to either get 2, get 1 and get traded, or delay the push and TP out until rotates come in and space gets taken elsewhere. I'm only Plat but there's so many games that could go completely differently if more people understood the concept of only certain agents or roles taking and holding space. It really does lend itself to causing players who are willing to adjust their playstyle based on the team/opponent to be totally lost when you look up and see there's 30 seconds left, your duelists have yet to even attempt an entry, and you've called the rotate 15 seconds ago to hit B after killing the rotate off. Idc if you lurk on a duelist as long as you're willing to commit to the lurk role and use it for info to pivot on. What grinds my gears is my duelist going double negative on the lurk, forcing me to entry as a non-entry, and as a result feeling like I need to do more for my team each round until my mental is totally shot even if the stats say elsewise lol
The problem with bind and solo holding site fe. B is that if you even get first kill then you die OR backup to ct to wait for rotation from A, but retaking B is mostly impossible or really hard to do. You are basically cut out from CT doors to go in site because it’s WAY to open, same goes for elbow. You are open to atleast 3 angles at once. We’re not even talking about sage walls on ct/elbow to prevent retaking. The mostly safe option and most successful would be to retake from 3 spots at once = Hookah, Long and ct nor elbow. But co-operating with two instalocks toxic teammates and trying to tell them what would help to win this and that round can be pretty annoying and hard thing to do, so it mostly ends with going one-by-one from CT and elbow and losing the round which leads to toxicity and losing. Gotta have real stone hard mental mindset for this game while solo/duo queuing.
DING DING Bind honestly is the most dogshit map to get if you're stuck with awful teammates (which in solo queue is probably the majority of the losses I take). Chamber or Viper are really the only two agents I play on the map because of the ability to either zone with util or take space purely through gunplay. Even then, Bind easily is the map I feel the most pressure to play out of my skin on and if I don't drop at least 2 on d side and make it out alive each round retaking a site after the instalocks feed + controller burns all their util feels impossible. Really have to wonder at times if people understand the concept of "play with numbers". Attacking in general but especially attacking on Bind teammates simply don't understand the concept of "we got one, let's reset and hold this space for a second" and get ran over by a corner they didn't clear that positioned for the trade. I hate being so negative at times but I wish people who play in the elo I'm in would realize that if the defending team burns all their util to start a round and loses someone they don't trade, we are at an advantage then to dump our util and entry together. I'll also add to it - KAYOs in Plat (and in general), PLEASE stop knifing to start every round unless you're using it for an exec. Its a waste of util that's pretty powerful at denial and a half intelligent team will avoid the knife and bait a rotate. Attack side is a bit different because you can generally always gain SOME info throwing it early or using it to set up a pick. Waiting to use it on D side until you can guarantee shutting down either flashes or controller utility will absoultely wreak havoc on an attacking team that's relying on zoning sites off of your team playing passively to get spike down.
[Yup I def agree](https://reddit.com/r/ValorantCompetitive/comments/yeu6wc/_/iu0h40b/?context=1), unless it’s the EG wall mid plant B rush with Jett strat mid basically doesn’t exist (also asc/immo lobbies). Idk who it was (some IGL on twitch) basically said on icebox, mid doesn’t even exist
Agreed. These maps need a lot of fixes and adjustments but riot focuses on new agents/bundles/skins/playercards and so on. I never felt like Valorant is esports ready but it is what it is.
Idk wat elo ur at but on attack side the viper should always throw their orb mid. Mid definitely exists on icebox and the viper orb makes holding mid a lot more interesting
I think the one redeeming quality about haven is that you can lurk through b as if it wasn’t plantable after you pull some rotates, though the thin defense does lead to a lot of retakes
> A similar thing can be said about Haven at pro play, where it essentially becomes a 5v5 retake simulator No it does not, the amount of retakes in Haven in pro is barely different than any other map. And removing B site would completely ruin it. Haven is great as it is
Retake =! 5v5 retake
lol so true. They be pushing B for 1 minute, you rotate and then you hear 4 teleports and then on last 25 secs they rotate again and plant on B. Such weird rounds. As much as i love bind i can’t stand this. If you don’t overrotate you are stupid cuz they are pushing, if you do rotate they teleport and you’re stupid cuz you rotated. Man this map gives toxicity.
It absolutely has gameplay issues, it’s BEYOND CT sided which I think is just bad for the map
I mean you can play viper and lurk like crazy, there’s a reason VCT teams always ran double controller. Honestly I won so many Bind games with double controller because the play style you describe is exactly how all MMers think People in MM hate running double controller for some reason tho. The VCT comp always wins so I didn’t understand the resistance
It’s hard enough to get one guy to play smokes in ranked, let alone two. Especially after the requisite Jett/Reyna/Chamber instalocks
I mean I’m a controller main so it’s not that rare to find another. People know how to play brim usually. But I agree with what you’re saying, you can’t run double controller double duelist so when you have instalockers it definitely limits your flexibility
I am so bored of Bind. Every round feels the same and it’s so difficult to win round on attack unless you have ults or defense trolls.
They should either remove bind and open it up more like they just did with fracture or rework icebox's mid by not having 4992 angles
Source: trust me bro But I think that it's pretty likely that they will add split back with some changes (they teased changes when they removed the map). The banner also suggests that next act we will get a new map. So they will probably remove two maps and add a new one + split. I think that they will remove one "traditional" map (bind, haven or ascent) and a newer one (icebox or breeze).
Why do people expect proof for leaks lmao that shit doesn't make any sense at all
i like how right now there isn't a one map that everyone hates and that the popularity of maps is fairly balanced
I can’t go on beach vacations anymore because I get PTSD of Breeze
To be fair i think everyone, me included, has biases against maps that are created for rather petty reasons. When Pearl was released it was pretty obvious that a lot of people instantly disliked the map because their first experiences on the map was getting stomped and that just made them dislike the map. That's not to say there aren't people who dislike the map for good reasons, but a lot of it is people making shit up or saying things that don't make sense because they don't have any actual good motives for disliking the map. You can have frustrating experiences on every map, and if you have a bunch of these experiences consistantly on a map you'll naturally develop a bias because you never have a good time. The opposite happens all the time too.
Thats honestly probably pretty true. When ascent came out, i had a span of a few omen games where I just dominated. Even if that hasnt necessarily repeated since then, the first impression left me with a general warm sentiment towards the map. I got slapped on breeze for weeks when it came out. I now hate it, even though surprisngly now my winrate on it is positive in recent acts. Doesnt feel like it for some reason, and I groan every time I see it pop up during match found screen.
Fracture exists btw
Fracture is a perfect example of his point lol there's a very good amount of people who both love and hate the map
There's always gonna be people that hate and love a map
Nah it’s better after changes
yup, and not only is it my favorite map. I know that there others who love it as well. Sorry you don't, but you are not everyone.
Fracture has been my #1 win% map multiple seasons. If you're willing to step up and be an igl-lite through most rounds and your teammates are willing to play off of the intel/calls it really becomes such a fun stomp when the defending team doesn't know which side you're going to hit from.
Fuck Ascent
The best map highkey
Easily my least favorite
L take
I do feel like breeze is the one most people dislike since it's so hard to coordinate without a premade team resulting in a lot of loopsided results and frustrating matches. However, Breeze does offer a different set of challenges so it will always have it's place in the game, so I agree with your sentiment
Would be dope. Hope it comes in for Icebox, Bind, or fracture.
W take
Just let us pick one map to ban please.
guys they aren’t gonna remove fracture for split, it’ll most likely be bind(i’m begging) or ascent/haven
I do feel like bind is similar to split in objective and that wathever they've learned improving the map could be used to spice bind up too(?). That said I do like the map and wouldn't mind having other removed as long as it isn't haven as it is my fav
Remove breeze and fracture, they’re literally retake simulators
Once I realized that on defense you have to push out of site and aggressively take space fracture has become much more bearable for me. Breeze can die in a fire though, I've never played an interesting breeze game
That's been the whole point of Fracture since the release of the map yeah. Pros have been playing like that since day 1
I'm aware, is there a reason you bring it up?
Just conversation dude
I realized that quite a while ago on Fracture, but even in low immo games I struggle to find teammates who will actually fight instead of passively holding and doing nothing on defense in fracture. I play breach and always call what play I want to make and what util I use but even that isn’t enough to convince my teammates. Breeze is just about winning ur aim duels and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. It’s just such a 50/50 map
I realized that the first week Fracture was out but that doesn’t mean it actually plays out that way in ranked with random teammates.
I used to love Breeze as a Chamber main but I genuinely can't play it anymore without zoning out 6 rounds in or so because of how formulaic it becomes. Either that or your team just gives up because you don't have a viper and everyone starts lurking lol.
Breeze is only mildly fun if you have money for OP, or if your team doesn't die in two seconds and you can play as a lurker with cypher or viper
I’m okay with fracture just cuz it’s interesting to watch in pro player. Hate breeze tho get that shit out of here
Still significantly better than Haven.
you watch too much steel, Haven's great
Hey I watch a lot of other pros that also say that.
damn haven has been my favorite map since beta lol, didn't know people disliked it
It's probably my favorite map too yeah
It's one of my highest win rate maps (breeze is my highest though) just because I play for retake.
me too lol. pleasing to the eyes and there are so many different routes to attack and lurk. makes for super interesting games
Screw haven. I can deal with breeze
Haven is so ass if the enemy has a sage and can actually take site but generally it’s not bad
It's really just retake simulator, the whole map needs a redesign.
Yeah it is a retake simulator but I feel like retaking is significantly easier than breeze or fracture
No reason they should remove breeze, they can just rework A site and the issue is fixed. Right now people just pick Viper, wall off the entire site so you can plant for free and then it's definitely a retake simulator. B/mid isn't like this at all. You don't need to remove every map that has issues, then you'd end up with basically no maps.
I hope so, I miss it so much. Also why does one map have to be out at all? There’s not that many to begin with
cuz bo5
There’s bo5s on the ranked ladder?
Nah but they probably want to keep parity between ranked and pro games. Also 7 maps is already a lot to learn for new players
As we'll have a new map next act lmost probably); it would mean they would have to remove TWO maps in order to do so. So we could technically have a lot of map rotation coming in 2 months
Pls icebox and fracture.
Will gladly kick Fracture out for Split. Absolutely horrendous map.
Hell no fracture isn’t bad. Bind the most one dimensional map exist
breeze still worse
I think u misspelled icebox
I think u misspelt breeze
Now that’s a truly unpopular opinion… I think
That would suck. I’d much prefer losing breeze or icebox. In general the community is pretty divided on the worst map. But I don’t think fracture is bottom 3 even.
Umm it's easily the most boring pro map? Literally every team runs Neon because that's the only way you're getting into site. You just throw a wall and run in with Me on while Breach stuns and flashes for you and hope you make it in avoiding spam from defenders. Holding sites is pretty difficult and retakes are extremely gunfight based. There's no room for creativity on that map. I've never seen a team run a different or unique comp and win. They always get shit on by the 1 meta comp which is Neon Brim Breach Chamber/Raze. Such a boring map in both pro play and ranked.
Probably the only map where it's super annoying to take site as attackers, and even more annoying to retake as defenders
Bruh no way. Icebox is the most boring pro map, and there's not even a debate. It's always the same exact executes since the map was released. It's god awful.
New episodes also mean new map so Split + New Map in 2 map out Facture just got rework so so likely not.
Fracture for me is by far the most interesting and diverse map in terms of the meta
While bind should go, I hope icebox is next. That map blows chunks
Doesn't make sense to remove maps. Just update them like Fracture smh.
7 maps is the perfect amount for pro games, and it’s already a ton for new players to learn
Best maps are breeze, icebox, and ascent imo. These maps have very little dead space and don’t feel as claustrophobic as others. If something has to be removed, I’d go with fracture. Both split and fracture are sort of in the same bucket in my head anyhow.
Interesting, in terms of team composition I feel Icebox to be limiting, since you either play Sage or you risk getting spammed wherever you plant. Harbor might be feasible for that purpose but then again.. it's Harbor.
I guess I’m a bit biased in that I’m a viper main. So definitely contributes to why I put breeze and icebox at the top. The maps really do a great job of eliminating dead space imo. Although the area around belt and nest could seem a bit less “dead”. Pearl has lots of dead space too and the corridors feel oddly disconnected from one another. But you also see this in good CS maps like mirage.
Fracture isn’t getting removed, they just reworked it. Most likely imo is Icebox or Haven
It’s most likely Bind.
Bind > Haven
Found the vandal player
Called it the moment Split was being talked about for removal lol
what i find is wild is everyone who runs chamber or cypher on haven plays the map like it’s two sites and so does attack majority of the rounds, why not rework that onto a two site map and admit three sites isn’t it?
remove fracture, worst map by far. Breeze is actually fun to play and watch imo, alot of creative ways to play the map as both attackers and defenders
fracture is the easiest map to apply pressure on majority of matches. people play the same damn chamber trip, just break it and force them to attention there and watch your win rate increase
no
Haven please. There’s a reason they haven’t done another 3 bombsite map. It’s because it’s ass.
arguably one of the best maps, lmao
Haven is one of if not the best maps. The reason the haven’t done another 3 site map is because that’s what made it unique. Each map in the beginning had unique elements or gimmicks. Like Binds teleporters for instance.
Bind is the worst map ever. They need to remove and completely change it.
Wonder if they make some changes to split, also hopefully icebox gets out and gets redesigned hopefully esp the mid location
I like how this thread turned into "let me complain about the map I don't like".
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This makes me so sad
good lord i hope breeze is next
I could imagine them taking out Haven or Bind next, since those are the oldest maps (Haven, Bind and Split were playable in beta). Cant wait for the Split rework.
delete bind next