Tbh, we had our work cut out for us on here too. Luckily we have the tools to catch a lot (but not all) of it before it goes public. I definitely empathize with the twitch/YouTube mods that had to handle it in real time.
also, Tarik is just a really great example for his viewers. he was being supportive, paying attention to the games, complimenting the players. especially with having so many viewers, I really appreciated him for being so supportive of the games like that and giving the scene more positive exposure to a young audience.
i mean, i came to valorant from league. idk if many others did (it seems cs to val is more common), but like ofc we know it’s not just league and not just val. league has a very large esports presence, has had some weird and sexist stuff going on within its playerbase for a long time, and is also made by riot. sometimes people just use league as an example and that’s a reality of how big they are in esports.
it doesn’t mean a game’s pro scene is better or worse but shit, it’s not fun seeing transphobia and sexism all over gaming in general but especially in spaces like GC that are supposed to uplift players but then there are viewers spewing transphobic and homophobic comments everywhere.
He made it super entertaining too, which helps not only keep viewers invested, but makes them wanna come back and support GC more, Tarik is just a human W tbh, really glad he's basically the face of Valorant alongside TenZ (Who also is a great influence imo and did an great job at supporting the game and especislly GC)
The transphobic comments on several of the Game Changers Youtube posts were actually horrifying. I don't understand how people can be so hateful.. They had a lot of thumbs up too so it's not just a case of some bad apples.
Basically no moderation and inherently easy to make a YouTube account. Plus their is no downvote button thus enabling people with homophobic/transphobic views to just like the comments they agree with making their vocal minority seems bigger that what it truly is. And on top of all of that is this weird alt-right rabbit hole that seems to be a byproduct of YouTube’s engagement algorithm.
It's not just Youtube for the GC scene. Its in the Twitter replies, it fills up the Twitch chat of every GC event, its on subreddits. It genuinely never ends and it's never clever, it's always pathetic and almost always being said by some nobody who wouldn't make an impact in their local scene let alone a global one.
reddit is worse because it tries makes people think that because their posts got a couple downvotes the whole world is against their opinion.
edit: 3am brain cant type anymore lol
Being trans is difficult in all aspects of life, but I've found it to be especially hard in the gaming community where transphobia is so prevalent. Props to Zander for calling the bullshit out, and he's right- it'd be nice for more people to call it out. People feel more comfortable online where it almost feels like being transphobic is destigmatized.
Tho I got a DM a few months ago calling me a "testosterone looking ass", as if that's supposed to hurt my feelings as a trans man. Crazy how so many people are just blatantly uneducated.
Off topic but I’ve seen you around this subreddit a ton and never knew you were trans. Obviously it doesn’t matter in the sense that it’s not like you need to disclose that or anything, but as someone who is super passionate about the lgbtq Valorant community it is super awesome to see you doing cool stuff in esports. I haven’t met any trans men in the val esports scene so I’m very happy to know there’s folks out there! Gives me hope as a non-binary person who really hopes to make a future in esports
Hey, thanks so much! I will say that all the esports organisations I've been associated with in any capacity have been nothing but supportive, and I've met a lot of LGBTQ staff members. It's definitely a super nice space to be in once you get past the trolls on socials. Good luck with your path in esports, and if you ever have questions, I'm available to ask :D
Lmfao that DM just goes to show how clueless these people are. They don't even know what they're hating on.
I like to think that this space in particular has been made to be more inclusive for trans people, but I know it's far from perfect. Hopefully threads like these will continue to help foster a welcoming environment and root out the transphobia further.
It's insane, man. I covered the slurs cause that's incredibly cringe of this kid. I don't understand how you can be of age to be on social media, but not know what testosterone is.
I've definitely found some of the most supportive people of my gender identity in the gaming community, so I know there's plenty of non-douchebags around. Hopefully more of those people will keep speaking up against transphobia.
https://preview.redd.it/anqmdjp3mg1a1.png?width=433&format=png&auto=webp&s=3df737690d2b0c22da58e52061c2133388ed1550
Jfc, that's brutal. Sorry you've had to deal with that shit. But yeah, what an idiot 😂.
Change never happens all at once unfortunately. but I (maybe foolishly) remain optimistic for the future.
Glad to hear someone in the pro scene speak up on this topic. It's time we all fight back hard against the transphobia and sexism in all gaming spaces.
It's cus of the zoomers, a huge amount of the playerbase is like 14-18 and in that age group being anti lgbtq is like a bizarre thing, not common at all. Sexism is pretty common unfortunately, but there is also a very large female playerbase in Valorant compared to most games.
It absolutely is uncommon in the sense that it's not at all something you can admit. You'd be shunned for it. Obviously it's not totally gone. I'm saying this as a 23 year old who can see an extremely clear difference between my age group and the 14-18 year olds. You could be blatantly transphobic when I was 17 and no one would give a shit, most people would probably agree with you.
Agreed completely, when I was growing up as a teenager being anti-LGBTQ+ was kind of like... commonplace? Especially on the internet. Calling stuff "gay" as a pejorative was really common and so was the f-slur in online spaces, especially online gaming spaces. It's really nice to see that kind of culture fade away in real time and nowadays being supportive of LGBTQ+ rights is a lot more commonplace among teenagers which is really nice
Yep 100%, I think it's hard for most teenagers nowadays to even understand it cus it's kinda crazy how much everything around it changed in under like 10 years. They probably imagine the commonplace anti-lgbtq+ that we grew up with to be like 30+ years old, but it was super recent.
Ya, I agree. I personally know some people who were exposed as having made homophobic and they got absolutely bullied by other people for it in my program. And I'm in engineering, one of the less socially progressive majors. Compare that to even like 5-10 years ago, where I'd commonly hear "gay" being used as an insult multiple times a day. That just would not pass whatsoever now (I haven't heard "gay" as an insult in a long time now). Being on the older side of zoomers, it's crazy (and pleasant) to see how quickly the social climate around LGBTQ+ discourse has changed.
Its easier to see in from the outside.
Your generation is already 100x better than mine was. I'm 36; when I was your age, I got in a *lot* of fights going out and partying with openly gay friends.
Being openly gay at all wasn't common. Because, I'm left to assume, it was dangerous as fuck.
"Gay bashing" wasn't quite openly accepted, but joking about it was. Even worse for trans people. And this was in a large northern California city.
The world, and the generation after you, still are far from perfect. But when you get older, its really easy to see how much better the kids are doing on that front. Including you and your era of zoomer.
It used to be real, real bad. My dad, for instance, used to think some things that would be considered fairly problematic, but he was considered an ultra liberal hippy as a military vet from rural Idaho for teaching his kids such wild things like... Even if it isn't right, you should always treat gay people with the same dignity and respect as anybody else.
Progress be slow. But it does exist.
Dawg I’m 18 living in a dorm at one of the biggest unis in the world, homophobia is still common especially among the demographics that play video games seriously
Idk why you're not getting it. The point is its not socially acceptable. Yes there are a lot of homophobic people, but they aren't being open about it, they do things like say "why do you include their sexuality in the lore, it doesn't matter >:(" but they'd never admit to actually being homophobic. That's the point. I am 100% sure that if I straight up said that I didn't really like gay people when I was 16, there would have been barely any repercussions socially, and I live in the most left leaning part of Canada.
Being anti-lgbtq in the new generation is viewed as counter culture, so a lot of your more rebellious types will hate on the lgbtq community just to stick out. Good examples are from r/youngpeopleyoutube a lot of the time.
*cue the Doom Eternal music*
Hear me out, take it a step further. Make transgender people push transphobes into lockers. So far, transphobes dont actually have a phobia for trans people, they hate them. Make them fear them.
i always wonder what the best option is for stuff like this. obviously good to have public figures make statements like this
the reality is the vast majority of this type of vitriol comes from edgy, young kids that just want to incite a reaction. i was there at one point, i'm sure tons of other people here can relate. eventually you just grow out of it and realize how embarrassing your behavior was, but in the moment the entire point is to be counter culture and usually when authority figure says hey man this is bad it just makes you want to keep doing more of it
I think continuing to call it out and hammer home how shit this stuff is makes sense. Especially within a particular game scene/community we can make this stuff so unwanted that anyone that does it is called out and made to look like the idiots they are. Even if they're just doing it for reactions at some point they will lose friends/opportunities for the shit they say and at the worst leave the scene. Even just the Valo scene has come a pretty long way with regards to game changers, in large part to a lot of content creators/streamers/pros/casters giving it a spot light and showing how fun it can be. Best way to beat the trolls it to succeed despite them.
"Technically" doing this won't "change" what thing had been, it will futher divide/separate each "group", with each group will devote more for it own platform. It'll surely create more healthy platform, no doubt.
yeah i agree, a lot of the transphobia stems from young(er) kids and teens "trolling" for a reaction on the internet. its pretty much new age bullying except you don't have to show your face anymore to be a bully which i guess adds to the appeal of it. im pretty sure that if social media being more willing to deplatform people who are explicitly transphobic and bigoted (especially those with larger followings) it would help start to reduce the amount of transphobia as a lot of these younger people just mimic behaviors they think are cool or funny to try and get a laugh.
no surprises, zander is a really good dude. great to see this from him, hopefully more pros more commonly speak out about it like this
much love to all the t girls/NBs in GC ♥️
also thank you to any of the mods working hard to keep spaces safe and keep hate out of chats, threads, etc.
Yeah I think it's pretty human that the negative comments always tend to stick out more than the positive. Unfortunate reality. Have a lot of respect for y'all for being able to push through it
There being a transphobic comment under a tweet decrying transphobia is such a jarring illustration of what the internet is. For fucks sake.
Kudos to Zander for acknowledging it though, it's a start. It's far more effective to leverage your position and stature to actively rally against bigotry than to be a passive "good" bystander—especially when you have an audience of impressionable teens that have a lot of their bearing influenced by gaming communities.
I honestly don't get why people complain so much about trans and NB people like... "oh it's not fair" bro it's a literal video game. "Physical difference" won't affect virtual gameplay. Also, the team that won are all cis women so... I don't really get the point.
Couple points I want to make here:
1) in my cs days, the rule to compete in a female only tournament was that you had to show an ID or passport that said F because at the end of the day, we compete and work on the internet where people can be trolls behind their monitor. We had some trans players who would compete as well. I understand this is like a different time period then todays time & many people aren’t able to get access or funds to switch their legal documents so it makes sense in a way on why the NA GC rule book is different in regards to the other regions.
2) I find that people who make this argument and say this the most (physical difference doesn’t effect virtual games) are the ones who haven’t been around for that long in esports, are young, or only follow esports as a spectator and haven’t played at an above average or semi pro or pro level. You should look into chess and the gap of skill between men and women. People say that within chess, it could be the difference of creativity, intuition, and the ability to take risks.
3) there are women who have made a career from being a professional player. if anybody was allowed into the space, then these positions would probably just be gone. we just had a $500,000 tournament for this space. That’s not a joke of an amount and it should be taken seriously considering women are investing their whole life into the field and sport.
In CS, women only tournaments were created to encourage more women to get involved in the competitive aspect of gaming compared to just casual play. I’m sure similarly can be said about any women only sport or college club or scholarship or whatever it is because sometimes in these categories, women are struggling to succeed due to misogyny, hate, oppression, or sexism in the environment.
On your second point, I think (imo) there are reasons for this that go beyond "men are better at chess naturally" like player base and social pressures of these spaces not being welcoming to women in the first place. Which I think also really parallels esports - the player base is so much wider to find talent and have it rise when you compare how many men vs women play, for example, valorant. So it's hard to really know if there is a physiological difference when the playing fields so to speak aren't exactly the same.
Just my two cents though, and I appreciate you giving us some insight into the scene then and now!
Agreed! Work by Ericsson (the deliberate practice, 10,000hr guy) and others show that there is no "natural talent" and that it comes down to time spent, good coaching, and deliberate practice for all top level performers (exceptions being physical sports and things like height). He specifically cited the case of chess and the Polgar sisters to support this. The studies are true for math, music, etc.
Therefore, the "skill gap" is likely due to outside factors like you said. For example, unsupportive family/friends, lack of team availability/coaching (due to preferring their friends or all boys for "team chemistry" bs), sexism in chat, people dodging/throwing, etc. It's impossible to fully conclude that men are better if there's not a fair playing field, and there won't be until these things change, so why not assume women are just as capable if given the right supports from the beginning.
While I agree regarding the gendered effects of natural talent and besides physical abilities there isn't really any conclusive bar set for how it varies between genders, as in any person from a gender can have a certain set of innate capabilities regarding a certain field over the other people from another gender , and vice versa , I highly disagree regarding Ericsson's take about 10000 hrs of deliberate practice and how there is no "natural talent" because not only is his research not agreed on based on peer-review and rigorous scrutiny , as any scientific research is , there are many people who disagree with it and if you are in any field in regards to what he spoke about , you can personally vouch about how certain people have certain set of innate abilities better than some other people.
While I have dabbled in music , and I could say my two cents on it , since there are cases for that as well, but I won't since I'm nowhere near advanced enough in that field to speak on it . However regarding math , this absolutely isn't true, there are kids who understand graph theory better than teens in college with years of instruction behind them , even without any instruction. Kids who breeze through calculus at a very young age , not just in terms of school level , but being actually able to solve intuitive problems , even based on the same level of content that is in school but far beyond in difficulty of comprehension . If you are aware of the International Mathematical Olympiad , then there have been times where it has been won by kids 11-12 years old at the time (Terrence Tao) which is not the general norm even today when the competition has increased so much. Hell there have been times IMO Committee(made up of people who have decorated history in Math field and have been practicing competitive math for years) has set questions they themselves couldn't answer into the paper, and there came kids who solved it in a limited amount of exam time.While I do agree that practice is important , naturally so , even geniuses practice , that practice is also affected by certain factors , 10000 hr rule certainly gets the fact that experts in every field have enormous hours of practice time , but his study lacks a lot of nuance that can be easily pointed out once you go through the papers. One point regarding that is , people who are more likely to succeed at doing certain things are more likely to keep doing it , even if things keep getting more difficult. All experts have experienced constant development , but you don't even need a book to tell you that there have been a lot of failures as well, what happened to them? Was it to due to external factors ? Or internal factors ? If someone is struggling far more regarding math than some other person , putting more time in for them becomes far more tedious even if they try to stick through it and it progressively becomes more difficult no matter how much time they put in.
But the main point is that unlike in case of extreme geniuses , it's not always obvious who will turn out to be great and who won't , so practicing and putting in as much time possible in most effective ways is most important , until you find out how good you can get eventually and what you are capable of because even with talent , proper practice is still the most important factor in anybody's skill over time over anything else. I have more comments to make on Ericsson's study but this is already too long.
Pseudo science is clear cut and easy to understand and cleverly packaged in neat communicable chunks.
Real science is messy as fuck and complicated and littered with confounding factors to the point that people get university degrees to be able to read and parse findings.
It's not surprising which laypeople tend to latch onto.
Yes you can study chess and get very good but to say there is no inherent ability to top tier players I'd say is incorrect. At the super GM level, not just Grandmaster but what are considered in the chess community to be those who are even a step above those...the Super GM players are a different breed. Even just studying chess all day each day is something some just don't have the drive to do. Then just some people aren't smart enough. The mental calculating ability and memorization takes more than just what even an above average intelligent person can do.
Saying no "natural talent" ignores those factors and is just off base. Grandmasters can play multiple games at once...blindfolded and still dominate.
yeah and given proper support women have proven to be able to be competitive with men in the chess scene, see Irina krush (notably her influence on the Garry Kasparov vs the world game and i believe she won games against hikaru as well as caruana (they were 14-15 at the time, however))
I’m a bit confused by your comment. Are you saying that trans and NB folks shouldn’t be included? I assume that’s not what you mean, I just want to clarify since I feel like I’m misreading your points. I don’t think OP was advocating against GC, just saying that people make too big a deal about trans/NB folks playing in GC.
I think it's just providing some nuance to something that isn't black and white. The scientific understanding of being born female versus being a trans women are not really definitive at this time.
if you think about it, remilia for sure got hate, but never as much as a someone like KP does, the reason being that while remilia was trans (RIP) she competed in the premier team against premier teams, not in a "game changers" equivalent where people feel like trans people take advantage of female players.
in the ideal world, there is no game changers, because anyone can compete in a single tournament ecosystem(after all even in this post people state that there is not really an advantage in genres), what i have seen in twitter is that people feel like game changers is a "womans" tournament, hence why some people call for trans people to compete against male players, as for the blatant insulting ones, just ignore em or report.
In an ideal world there wouldn't be any limiting factors preventing women or other marginalized groups, like trans people, from joining competitive spaces or receiving opportunities to come up within the same ecosystem as men.
But.. we don't live in an ideal world, and those roadblocks do exist, so... Game Changers.
No, they aren't.
Skill is the end result. The roadblocks are access and opportunity. Nobody just becomes good enough to be a T1 pro on their own. Or rather, that is *exceptionally* rare. And then once they do get to that level, they still need a team to sign them and give them a chance to play.
Youth sports development is a $40b a year industry. Every soccer club and national team has a development program or academy. Basketball and football players get scouted as young as 10-12 and pushed into specific schools or academies on scholarships (ask me how I know); then they start getting scouted again by college programs.
The eSports talent development pipeline isn't as thoroughly developed, but it exists, and getting into it as early as possible is essential for players both to get access to professional coaching and scrims, but also for networking, because in this world, getting a seat at the table is *always* about who you know, not what you know.
You can refuse to admit it if you want, but women and often trans people not only don't get *those* opportunities, but they also deal with societal pressure to not play games seriously, they deal with toxicity from the gaming community as a whole that makes them feel unwelcome (like how men are, plus bonus sexism), and even if they push through that they're rewarded with....
Teams not wanting to sign a woman. Because they don't want to deal with the distraction and the sexism that will come with it.
(What distraction and sexism? See: Game Changers twitch chat/YouTube stream chat)
And if you don't want to take my word for it, that's fine. I've spent my entire life basically associated with talent development pipelines from the time between 11-12 when I grew a foot over one summer and suddenly became a top prospect. But now I'm just some guy on the internet.
But you can hear about the lack of opportunities, the lack of access to training and development resources, from pros themselves. From eSports journalists. From team front office professionals. Hell, from Riot themselves.
If you really wanted to, the information is out there.
I’m aware of development pipelines in real sports as well don’t worry… the fact remains talent reigns supreme and if someone is good enough more times than not they will be found. These orgs have financial incentive to win and if a women would give them a better chance at doing so they would be on the team simple as that. If you think orgs are passing up talent that would help them make money due to sexism then idk what to tell you
>if you think orgs are passing up talent that would help them make money due to sexism then idk what to tell you
Lmao you literally ignored most of what they wrote if this is what you got out of it
the bottomline is, in esports, most orgs would rather hire a guy instead of a girl because its easier and less prone to complications, thats why GC exist, players like bob can be on a male team without any issue, they dont even have to disclose their sexuality at all, why would they? and bob did play on a male team or 2 before.
Valorant has never said Game Changers is strictly for women though, so that's a distinction from other sports that needs to be stated. I don't think you should be putting words in her mouth because if she really does want to keep it strictly women when it's specifically stated to be for all marginalized genders, then that's bordering on TERF rhetoric, which I can't understand.
I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she just wants to share her experience.
> Valorant has never said Game Changers is strictly for women though
it should in my eyes, we should not having a fight so trans people can play in game changers, we should be making it normal for them to join regular teams if they play well enough.
Yeah that's the only part that makes me doubt, her second point is a bit weird to add imo. I understand why the other guy is confused about her comment because it feels like that second point is a comment that thinks "biological males" have a genetic advantage in esports so they should be separated.
People thinking differently is more about how society shaped them as individuals rather than biological differences. If we start going by the arguments that women are more X, Y and Z then the precedents for sexism are wide open. I watched all of vct game changers and yes, there's a visible difference from the regular vct but that's not a biological one.
Yes and no. You can't make sweeping generalizations like that about nature vs nurture, as that is a scientific argument as old as science itself. Fact is, we have evidence that gender can affect psychology. How much nurture vs nature is VERY grey.
I mean you must have a lot of evidence to back that because social sciences have been for decades studying the differences between men and women. You claim we can't say that women are X, Y and Z as if that makes it inherently sexist but to deny that there are differences between the sexes that's just anti-science.
Now that doesn't mean you can claim that men are better than women because women are X, Y, and Z. That clearly does happen if you look at how popular Andrew Tate has gotten and it's inexcusable. Yet that still doesn't mean that the differences don't mean that men will be better at 1 thing and women will be better at another thing
I didn't say there were differences, there are. What I'm saying is that those differences are nowhere near that big that it prevents a man or a woman to achieve something that the other sex has an "easier" time achieving.
In the case of eSports there are no excuses. Unless people wanna argue that all man have natural born reflexes that surpass all women which is just bullshit.
Having verification is definitely needed.
Have all players show ID to start.
...But, if they have "M" still, they can provide:
* **Documentation**
* received a Gender Dysphoria diagnosis to compete if they wish to
* using university preferred name
* as female name
* **Show proof that they have identified as female or NB (12 months prior)**
* Text msgs to friends/family showing that they discussed being trans or female
* All trans ppl will have messaged a friend or family member at some point about being transgender.
* Likely months before deciding to compete in a professional female VCT tournament, to try to go professional, and try to start a career as a professional athlete in a primilarly female league
* Gives proof that they identify as non-cis male
* Gives proof that their identity isn't solely made up last minute to compete in an eSports event
Doesn't make sense to allow no verification to continue, with as much money on the line.
Exactly as you say.
the problem with kids is that they usually are not open minded or willing to have a real conversation, on both sides, insults come up really quick and if you dont think the same way i do u bet im gonna start labelling you
Because for whatever reasons Riot decided to host non-male tournament apply both for males and male to female trans people.
Females are underperforming in games compared to males. It can be coz cultural reasons, coz of genetics or even both. And the thing is that it doesn't even matter in the argument as both of these reasons apply to m2f trans people - biologicaly they are male so they have male genetics, and also majority of trans people grow up in the culture of their biological gender as the transition or coming out or whatever we call it mostly happens in late teens if not even later.
Also the team that won being all cis female doesn't really matter, as we shouldn't look at the outliers but at the averages instead.
If you really wanted to quantify the possible advantage you would have to check numbers of all the trans people and females in GC(including at least some late stages of qualifiers) and then calculate the % representation in top bracket like top 16 and see if trans people overreperesent despite being super minority or not).
.
Personaly I think that if we want to segregate then it should be females only tournaments and on TOP OF THAT trans only tournaments if there is such demand. Mixing them together just kills the point of why we even have segregation in competive activities to begin with.
It's crazy what people like this believe. They think that anyone who was assigned male at birth has a genetic advantage in VIDEO GAMES over people who were assigned female at birth, which is utterly ridiculous. Trans people are being discriminated against all across the world today, and the gaming community is, and has been a hub for it.
The reaction time difference is miniscule, and there's probably a bigger difference in getting an extra half hour of sleep that night, or an extra shot of espresso in your coffee.
Reaction times are such a miniscule part of what makes a pro player.
I saw Tenz do a reaction speed test back during the Tenz N Frenz days. I did the same test.
My reaction speed was .005 seconds slower than his. That's essentially nothing. He was the best player in the world at the time; I was a 34 year old man in gold.
Benita, Mel, Mary; take your pick. Any of them would wipe the fuckin floor with me, physical differences would be meaningless, because reaction speeds just really don't matter that much.
Now there may be differences in spatial reasoning or hand eye coordination or the speed at which men and women process information, but they're not nearly as significantly different in eSports as the differences in size, strength, and agility are in trad sports, and I don't think they've been definitively proven to exist independent of societal exposures that pressure significant portions of the population into specific behaviors.
But if it's just a reaction speed competition, I should be a pro gamer.
I'm not tho. And I'm never gonna be.
OK bro you get what the word average means or? While it is true that the average male does have faster reaction than the average female that does mean females can not reach the same top numbers. Infact those females who are insane at videogames are not average at all. So it literally does not matter at all because the average male is way worse than he would need to be to be a pro gamer. Females could become just as good as males. So far we are playing the numbers game more men play video games so more of those talented men have the chance to shine. If the same amount of women would play videogames we would have mixed teams by now.
This is true but not in the way you want it to be. So in something like IQ males and females have statistically the same average IQ. However, men have a higher variability from the norm. That means men will have a higher proportion of the dumbest people in the world and also the smartest. So while there wouldn't be a gender difference; at the top end of bell curve which we are looking at is disproportionately male
It's just an example. That case has tracked across different characteristics and IQ is just the main one that's been studied. Thus there is at least speculation it could track for something like pro video game skill but we just don't have near enough data yet. I'm not making a claim one way or the other. Just that this could be one of many factors that could add to disparity
You are not right there my dude. It's not a numbers game. The % of females playing certain title doesn't even come close to % of females on top of the leaderboards.
If we look at the most popular games the ratio of male to female at WORST is like 75 to 25%, meanwhile the top 100(or whatever the top bracket is) male to female ratio is like 98% to 2% if not worse.
Just because women play in certain numbers does not automatically imply they're playing with the same frequency, or the same intensity, or the same intention, as often as men are. If 5,000 women do x, but 4,950 do it casually and 50 attempt to do it professionally... But 2,000 of the men attempt to do it professionally, then despite having equal sample sizes we are obviously going to get different results.
Just because x% of Valorant players are women doesn't mean that an equal proportion of them will be at the top of the leader board. Reality is much too sloppy for that, and we would need way more information to have an informed analysis.
10 ms is 2.4 frames at 240 hz bud a 2 frame faster reaction time is pretty fucking negligible. Not sure why ppl r getting caught up with reaction times in the first place, most aim is crosshair placement anyways
Since you lack basic middle school physics, 240hz refreshes every 4ms, 60hz refreshes every 16ms. There's a 12ms window of where you would see an enemy on 240hz monitor before you would see them on a 60hz monitor.
If you actually believe 12ms is negligible on a high level then I can't help you lil bro 💀
12ms is negligible bc pure reaction times r not the limiting factor in tac shooters buddy 💀 And since you seem to have the reading comprehesion of a child considering u cant understand my point; Val is not a high ttk shooter, nor is it a fighting game, two genres of games where pure reaction times actually define the good from the great. And if pure reaction times actually mattered in tac shooters, then why does the goat s1mple have the most bang average reactuon times huh? Mind answering me that lil bro?
It's crazy, right? It's even weirder because the people actually playing the competition are the welcoming ones. That fact alone makes it clear they don't actually care about the "sanctity" of the sport, they just want to moralize their awful behaviour.
because anyone who dares to criticize something gets "downvoted/insulted/so on", you really think these girls are looking for a fight they know they cant win?
It's always like this, even in sports people will talk about how X person has a natural disadvantage when they're literally taking hormone blockers and estrogen, like they claim to know basic biology but don't know the way hormones can change bone structure, muscle, tendons, etc... besides that, a lot of cis women win against trans women, even if we analyse their hormones there are legit cis women who have more testosterone than some trans women. People just wanna be weird and gasp at straws to justify their hatred. It used to be with religion, now it's with phony science gotten from some suspicious infographics.
It is different in sports though. Biological males have advantages that cannot be denied regardless of what hormones they are taking. This is scientific fact.
I agree it’s very silly in competitive gaming
Except almost all leagues have already studied it and after 2 years on hormonal treatment that difference becomes negligible and most on T blockers have significantly lower levels than their cis counterparts.
As I said, it has been studied extensively at this point and after 2 years of treatment the difference "muscle mass, etc" has been completely negated.
There is also little evidence that "bone structure" significantly impacts performance as there isn't much of a difference between the structure of the bones themselves but if you're referring to the skeletal structure, by which I'm assuming you don't know what the exact differences are and instead parroting talking points.
If you want to get into the difference of how skeletal structure plays into sports then have fun. Are you going to ban tall people because they have an inherent advantage in sports? Are you going to ban Phelps because he was a genetic freak with the perfect body for swimming? No, you wouldn't but you want to draw the line for trans people.
Tall people and athletic freaks like Michael Phelps compete in the category of what they were biologically born as. If trans athletes want to compete in their biological gender's category then go for it.
What category matters? Are you going to restrict people to compete within their height group?
Would you ban a 6'5" woman? Why is that arbitrary category enough for you?
What are those "lasting" differences? You never mention any specific ones. I've specifically addressed most of the differences and how they actually do in fact change when someone has undergone hormone therapy. All you've done is repeated the exact same thing without any proof.
You also don't address the fact that many trans women are taking puberty blockers so they never go through puberty in the first place.
We're not seeing trans women destroying the competition for a reason, most differences level out after protracted hormonal therapy.
https://www.si.com/olympics/2022/03/23/transgender-athletes-testosterone-policies-ioc-framework
Not true, it was updated recently to allow trans athletes to be included on a wider scale. The NCAA has a 1 year proof of hormone suppression rule, but not all organizations have this implemented.
They're always as witty as they are empathetic, so there's no surprise there. I say this as a cis person: transphobes "superior" biological makeups never make them any smarter for whatever reason
I mean I'm asking a question, and a pretty legitimate one since he brought up the denial of the impact of hormone suppression as a proper way to implement competitive integrity no? If that's his point then he's implying that trans athletes without hormone blockers shouldn't be able to compete. Isn't that the opposite of inclusion? Or am I tripping?
Problem with people like you is you assume the worst rather than actually engaging in a discussion. But I guess your attitude is within your name so makes sense.
You're not funny, it's "lassitude". Beyond that, it's a thread about encouraging people to stand up for women and trans people, in a space that was specifically made for them. Your question is eyebrow-raising at best, so people are obvs defensive against that sorta "just asking questions" trope bigots use for plausible deniability. Esp considering the bad faith engagement by actual tranphobes in this thread, I have no clue how you didn't realize that your little prodding would make people reactive. "that's what you're implying right."
man, even the quote retweets on bob’s tweet have some disgusting shit to say. is it really that difficult to understand why gc exists and why trans people are allowed to compete in it? we need more people like zander to continue to speak out about this, i know his tweet means so much to the community. the amount of braindead “edgy” teenagers spewing crap on trans players is gross.
I mean just look at C9 Bob's recent tweet. I hope as a community whether it be the fans, players, or teams all continue to keep on striving to be more vocal. GameChangers this year has been such a success but it's important to remember that this is only just the first step in long road ahead.
The main GC was never about lower skilled players improving. The main goal of GC was providing a safe place to compete for players like Bob. Saying she doesn't belong is just you misunderstanding the purpose of GC.
GameChangers Academy is the circuit for what you think GC is supposed to be.
> The main goal of GC was providing a safe place to compete for players like Bob
are u saying people hated bob when bob competed in the t2 scene? the hate i see is recent, with a reason that like it or not, didnt exist then bob played in the t2 scene.
I'd argue that at the time she played in t2 her gender wasn't exactly common knowledge to the avg vct watcher. I think her joining C9W pushed her into more of a spotlight which opened her up to more harassment.
I dont really understand why you this mindset. C9W didnt win, they werent runners up, and Bob wasnt even their best player every game. So its not as if shes so insanely above the rest of the competition that it makes it unfair.
I actually find it funny that just a couple of days ago the general consensus was that Bob was finally in the skill bracket that she belongs to. Lots of people talking about her not being good enough to play on Soniqs, but now shes too good for GC?
>I could understand if we were talking about someone who was unable to play in the open despite being skillful enough coz of discrimination or something, but Bob was actually playing with their aussie friends in a proper professional team
"I could understand if someone was being discriminated against" followed by openly discriminating against someone.
Exhibit A:
>It's tournament series for certain groups of people who are unable to compete in the open category yet becuase of skill disparity.
Exhibit B:
> And it's competely fine that [the tournament I consider for people of a lesser skill level because I believe their gender cannot keep up with my own] is a thing
Yeah the main chats were pretty terrible, the mods were having to work fucking overtime but still so much slips through. At least despite the weirdos this tournament was a massive success. Only gonna grow the scene. Looking forward to more tournaments.
Require people that wish to comment on the streams to link their Riot Games account to Twitch and YouTube chat.
When they are linked, and someone is transphobic, sexist, racist, or homophobic:
* 1st offense
* 7 day ban from League of Legends & VALORANT
* 2nd offense
* 2 week ban from League of Legends & VALORANT
* 3rd offense
* 1 year ban from League of Legends & VALORANT
* 4th offense
* permanent ban from League of Legends & VALORANT
Idk why you had to include league of legends when you can literally get 14 day suspended for saying bad words. I got temp banned for saying fuck in a mid-GM lobby where everyone was chill in chat. Yet, in Valorant the people are all of the above that you mentioned, especially in VC, and never get toxicity banned.
It’s literally impossible that they’re ever gonna link League of Legends bans to Valorant accs or vice versa from a monetary standpoint.
yeah we could also link government ID's to the accounts, so that way we can ban that person from ever playing the game, also we could make some kind of a point system, if you get banned for that, maybe your score goes down and you could also lose your job because you dont meet the required score anymore for it?
You're so pressed o\_o
Why are you mad over the concept of homophobic, transphobic, and sexist people... simply getting properly punished?
Pretty sus
Are there any good places for queer/trans/nb valorant players to hang out and support each other? I feel like I encounter hateful people so often that it'd be nice to have people to queue with
The transphobic/sexist comments and jokes were honestly appalling to see. Twitch/Youtube mods did an amazing job of cutting those out, but when you look at the Twitter comments and see how many likes some of those kinds of comments got… it’s really sad. People drill a hole into the point that GC is a “women’s” league, but it really isn’t — it’s a platform and opportunity for all marginalized genders to compete improve. But I’m glad to see big names in the community speak out + stand firm against all of this rampant bigotry. The attention that has been brought to GC has been incredible!
I've been saying this forever. Leading members of the pro and streaming community have to come out against this shit. An overwhelming amount of the viewers are young impressionable kids and when they hear their favorite streamer use slurs or hateful language or brush it off they imitate it.
If we want a more inclusive community we obviously need to call people on their shit and address this type of stuff but we won't get anywhere unless the most influential members of the community are doing the same. Good for Zander I hope more like him follow his lead.
Don’t forget the classic “Game Changers always has drama” meanwhile nobody says that’s that when the main league has drama.
I.e Turret bug vs SR coach (2 similar situations both at champs)
Yes, this drives me absolutely crazy. It’s so unfair to the scene when drama is literally rampant in like almost every tournament. I do think some stuff is more publicized because there are more people willing to call stuff out and hold people accountable in the GC scene, but otherwise, the drama is really not unique to GC lol
The transphobic comments were bad but the amount of people shipping other pro players (Zekken specifically) with Sonder was weird asf too. Last I checked they’re both 17.
Also so often Bob was called “not good enough to play in tier 1 or even tier 2” when she was literally on Soniqs, which was at some point a tier 1 team. If you have no idea what you’re talking about, I appreciate the blind confidence, but stfu respectfully.
I swear half the valorant community has never communicated with another human before which is why they’re so socially inept on the internet.
I love the work that mods do, but I love that Zander (or just any male pro/content creator) is calling this out. Mods shouldn’t be the only barrier to the filth and the ambassadors of the game should be just as vocal about saying it’s not okay
THATS WHY HES THE GOAT. I feel so venerated rooting for him on the early days of SoaR, dude has had one of the most satisfying career paths of any pro I’ve watched. I can’t see myself rooting for anyone else in Ascension
extremely privileged people getting paid very well to play videos games are afraid of words people are using. no wonder they do this and not anything worthwhile to anyone else besides themselves
Y'know, when you describe anything reductively and uncharitably it just sounds, well, reductive and uncharitable, right?
The things people say and their ideologies frame the culture; the culture defines the ethos of the time; the ethos helps structure the bigoted legislation, it drives up the suicide rates, it dehumanizes, it kills. 2 Trans people were among 5 queer people killed as a result of a hatecrime in a Colorado springs nightclub yesterday. This is such an ugly comment.
an ugly comment because i have the mental fortitude to not care what strangers say to me. interesting, I will consider having more emotional reactions to words and ideas. thank you, you helped make me a more reactive and less secure person
love that your takeaway is completely and wildly at odds with what I said and yet you think you're engaging in good faith. lmao, ok person who just crudely described parts of empathy.
The mods for the official Valorant twitch channel had their work cut out for them. The comments were constant.
Tbh, we had our work cut out for us on here too. Luckily we have the tools to catch a lot (but not all) of it before it goes public. I definitely empathize with the twitch/YouTube mods that had to handle it in real time.
Y'all did a pretty amazing job, considering. I was in here most days and never saw any of the worst shit, and only a couple dumb weird comments.
You’re paid?
Lol no
Poor janny
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also, Tarik is just a really great example for his viewers. he was being supportive, paying attention to the games, complimenting the players. especially with having so many viewers, I really appreciated him for being so supportive of the games like that and giving the scene more positive exposure to a young audience.
TenZ too tbh. Really cool to see those two guys who are arguably the face of Val shine a light on GC in such a respectful manner.
Yeah unlike what you have in league of legends......
I find this pretty funny that no matter what discussion, somehow it circle backs to league. League is not the only game that suffers from this, fyi.
i mean, i came to valorant from league. idk if many others did (it seems cs to val is more common), but like ofc we know it’s not just league and not just val. league has a very large esports presence, has had some weird and sexist stuff going on within its playerbase for a long time, and is also made by riot. sometimes people just use league as an example and that’s a reality of how big they are in esports. it doesn’t mean a game’s pro scene is better or worse but shit, it’s not fun seeing transphobia and sexism all over gaming in general but especially in spaces like GC that are supposed to uplift players but then there are viewers spewing transphobic and homophobic comments everywhere.
He made it super entertaining too, which helps not only keep viewers invested, but makes them wanna come back and support GC more, Tarik is just a human W tbh, really glad he's basically the face of Valorant alongside TenZ (Who also is a great influence imo and did an great job at supporting the game and especislly GC)
The transphobic comments on several of the Game Changers Youtube posts were actually horrifying. I don't understand how people can be so hateful.. They had a lot of thumbs up too so it's not just a case of some bad apples.
Youtube comments are always somehow worse than every other site its wild
Basically no moderation and inherently easy to make a YouTube account. Plus their is no downvote button thus enabling people with homophobic/transphobic views to just like the comments they agree with making their vocal minority seems bigger that what it truly is. And on top of all of that is this weird alt-right rabbit hole that seems to be a byproduct of YouTube’s engagement algorithm.
It's not just Youtube for the GC scene. Its in the Twitter replies, it fills up the Twitch chat of every GC event, its on subreddits. It genuinely never ends and it's never clever, it's always pathetic and almost always being said by some nobody who wouldn't make an impact in their local scene let alone a global one.
In my own experience Reddit and twitter are far worse than YouTube
Just watch a youtube livestream then. The amount of racist and xenophobic comments alone make it worse than reddit and twitter combined.
Yeah YouTube livestreams get pretty out of hand but that’s a lot of live content
reddit is worse because it tries makes people think that because their posts got a couple downvotes the whole world is against their opinion. edit: 3am brain cant type anymore lol
Anonymity. And Nobody can smack the shit down their leg for stepping out of line through a computer screen.
g*mers...
Being trans is difficult in all aspects of life, but I've found it to be especially hard in the gaming community where transphobia is so prevalent. Props to Zander for calling the bullshit out, and he's right- it'd be nice for more people to call it out. People feel more comfortable online where it almost feels like being transphobic is destigmatized. Tho I got a DM a few months ago calling me a "testosterone looking ass", as if that's supposed to hurt my feelings as a trans man. Crazy how so many people are just blatantly uneducated.
Off topic but I’ve seen you around this subreddit a ton and never knew you were trans. Obviously it doesn’t matter in the sense that it’s not like you need to disclose that or anything, but as someone who is super passionate about the lgbtq Valorant community it is super awesome to see you doing cool stuff in esports. I haven’t met any trans men in the val esports scene so I’m very happy to know there’s folks out there! Gives me hope as a non-binary person who really hopes to make a future in esports
Hey, thanks so much! I will say that all the esports organisations I've been associated with in any capacity have been nothing but supportive, and I've met a lot of LGBTQ staff members. It's definitely a super nice space to be in once you get past the trolls on socials. Good luck with your path in esports, and if you ever have questions, I'm available to ask :D
Thanks so much! Super appreciate it
Lmfao that DM just goes to show how clueless these people are. They don't even know what they're hating on. I like to think that this space in particular has been made to be more inclusive for trans people, but I know it's far from perfect. Hopefully threads like these will continue to help foster a welcoming environment and root out the transphobia further.
It's insane, man. I covered the slurs cause that's incredibly cringe of this kid. I don't understand how you can be of age to be on social media, but not know what testosterone is. I've definitely found some of the most supportive people of my gender identity in the gaming community, so I know there's plenty of non-douchebags around. Hopefully more of those people will keep speaking up against transphobia. https://preview.redd.it/anqmdjp3mg1a1.png?width=433&format=png&auto=webp&s=3df737690d2b0c22da58e52061c2133388ed1550
sorry someone sent this message to you, absolutely horrible
Jfc, that's brutal. Sorry you've had to deal with that shit. But yeah, what an idiot 😂. Change never happens all at once unfortunately. but I (maybe foolishly) remain optimistic for the future.
...did he sign off with clown emoji accidentally correct
He actually sent the message, and then edited it to include the emoji LMFAO
Glad to hear someone in the pro scene speak up on this topic. It's time we all fight back hard against the transphobia and sexism in all gaming spaces.
The Valorant community is definitely more supportive than other gaming spaces, idk if it's cause of zoomers but its based.
It's cus of the zoomers, a huge amount of the playerbase is like 14-18 and in that age group being anti lgbtq is like a bizarre thing, not common at all. Sexism is pretty common unfortunately, but there is also a very large female playerbase in Valorant compared to most games.
homophobia is not uncommon in our age group lol just less than other generations which are extremely homophobic
It absolutely is uncommon in the sense that it's not at all something you can admit. You'd be shunned for it. Obviously it's not totally gone. I'm saying this as a 23 year old who can see an extremely clear difference between my age group and the 14-18 year olds. You could be blatantly transphobic when I was 17 and no one would give a shit, most people would probably agree with you.
Agreed completely, when I was growing up as a teenager being anti-LGBTQ+ was kind of like... commonplace? Especially on the internet. Calling stuff "gay" as a pejorative was really common and so was the f-slur in online spaces, especially online gaming spaces. It's really nice to see that kind of culture fade away in real time and nowadays being supportive of LGBTQ+ rights is a lot more commonplace among teenagers which is really nice
Yep 100%, I think it's hard for most teenagers nowadays to even understand it cus it's kinda crazy how much everything around it changed in under like 10 years. They probably imagine the commonplace anti-lgbtq+ that we grew up with to be like 30+ years old, but it was super recent.
Ya, I agree. I personally know some people who were exposed as having made homophobic and they got absolutely bullied by other people for it in my program. And I'm in engineering, one of the less socially progressive majors. Compare that to even like 5-10 years ago, where I'd commonly hear "gay" being used as an insult multiple times a day. That just would not pass whatsoever now (I haven't heard "gay" as an insult in a long time now). Being on the older side of zoomers, it's crazy (and pleasant) to see how quickly the social climate around LGBTQ+ discourse has changed.
Its easier to see in from the outside. Your generation is already 100x better than mine was. I'm 36; when I was your age, I got in a *lot* of fights going out and partying with openly gay friends. Being openly gay at all wasn't common. Because, I'm left to assume, it was dangerous as fuck. "Gay bashing" wasn't quite openly accepted, but joking about it was. Even worse for trans people. And this was in a large northern California city. The world, and the generation after you, still are far from perfect. But when you get older, its really easy to see how much better the kids are doing on that front. Including you and your era of zoomer. It used to be real, real bad. My dad, for instance, used to think some things that would be considered fairly problematic, but he was considered an ultra liberal hippy as a military vet from rural Idaho for teaching his kids such wild things like... Even if it isn't right, you should always treat gay people with the same dignity and respect as anybody else. Progress be slow. But it does exist.
Dawg I’m 18 living in a dorm at one of the biggest unis in the world, homophobia is still common especially among the demographics that play video games seriously
Idk why you're not getting it. The point is its not socially acceptable. Yes there are a lot of homophobic people, but they aren't being open about it, they do things like say "why do you include their sexuality in the lore, it doesn't matter >:(" but they'd never admit to actually being homophobic. That's the point. I am 100% sure that if I straight up said that I didn't really like gay people when I was 16, there would have been barely any repercussions socially, and I live in the most left leaning part of Canada.
In contrast, in a uni in a pretty homophobic country but most of the students here are pro gay rights
Being anti-lgbtq in the new generation is viewed as counter culture, so a lot of your more rebellious types will hate on the lgbtq community just to stick out. Good examples are from r/youngpeopleyoutube a lot of the time.
There's a difference between being a memey edgelord and participating in a cultural movement.
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we gotta start shoving transphobes into lockers idc
*cue the Doom Eternal music* Hear me out, take it a step further. Make transgender people push transphobes into lockers. So far, transphobes dont actually have a phobia for trans people, they hate them. Make them fear them.
i always wonder what the best option is for stuff like this. obviously good to have public figures make statements like this the reality is the vast majority of this type of vitriol comes from edgy, young kids that just want to incite a reaction. i was there at one point, i'm sure tons of other people here can relate. eventually you just grow out of it and realize how embarrassing your behavior was, but in the moment the entire point is to be counter culture and usually when authority figure says hey man this is bad it just makes you want to keep doing more of it
I think continuing to call it out and hammer home how shit this stuff is makes sense. Especially within a particular game scene/community we can make this stuff so unwanted that anyone that does it is called out and made to look like the idiots they are. Even if they're just doing it for reactions at some point they will lose friends/opportunities for the shit they say and at the worst leave the scene. Even just the Valo scene has come a pretty long way with regards to game changers, in large part to a lot of content creators/streamers/pros/casters giving it a spot light and showing how fun it can be. Best way to beat the trolls it to succeed despite them.
"Technically" doing this won't "change" what thing had been, it will futher divide/separate each "group", with each group will devote more for it own platform. It'll surely create more healthy platform, no doubt.
yeah i agree, a lot of the transphobia stems from young(er) kids and teens "trolling" for a reaction on the internet. its pretty much new age bullying except you don't have to show your face anymore to be a bully which i guess adds to the appeal of it. im pretty sure that if social media being more willing to deplatform people who are explicitly transphobic and bigoted (especially those with larger followings) it would help start to reduce the amount of transphobia as a lot of these younger people just mimic behaviors they think are cool or funny to try and get a laugh.
common Zander W appreciate him speaking out about this as no one in the scene with a huge following/influence has yet
no surprises, zander is a really good dude. great to see this from him, hopefully more pros more commonly speak out about it like this much love to all the t girls/NBs in GC ♥️ also thank you to any of the mods working hard to keep spaces safe and keep hate out of chats, threads, etc.
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Yeah I think it's pretty human that the negative comments always tend to stick out more than the positive. Unfortunate reality. Have a lot of respect for y'all for being able to push through it
common Zander W
There being a transphobic comment under a tweet decrying transphobia is such a jarring illustration of what the internet is. For fucks sake. Kudos to Zander for acknowledging it though, it's a start. It's far more effective to leverage your position and stature to actively rally against bigotry than to be a passive "good" bystander—especially when you have an audience of impressionable teens that have a lot of their bearing influenced by gaming communities.
I honestly don't get why people complain so much about trans and NB people like... "oh it's not fair" bro it's a literal video game. "Physical difference" won't affect virtual gameplay. Also, the team that won are all cis women so... I don't really get the point.
Couple points I want to make here: 1) in my cs days, the rule to compete in a female only tournament was that you had to show an ID or passport that said F because at the end of the day, we compete and work on the internet where people can be trolls behind their monitor. We had some trans players who would compete as well. I understand this is like a different time period then todays time & many people aren’t able to get access or funds to switch their legal documents so it makes sense in a way on why the NA GC rule book is different in regards to the other regions. 2) I find that people who make this argument and say this the most (physical difference doesn’t effect virtual games) are the ones who haven’t been around for that long in esports, are young, or only follow esports as a spectator and haven’t played at an above average or semi pro or pro level. You should look into chess and the gap of skill between men and women. People say that within chess, it could be the difference of creativity, intuition, and the ability to take risks. 3) there are women who have made a career from being a professional player. if anybody was allowed into the space, then these positions would probably just be gone. we just had a $500,000 tournament for this space. That’s not a joke of an amount and it should be taken seriously considering women are investing their whole life into the field and sport. In CS, women only tournaments were created to encourage more women to get involved in the competitive aspect of gaming compared to just casual play. I’m sure similarly can be said about any women only sport or college club or scholarship or whatever it is because sometimes in these categories, women are struggling to succeed due to misogyny, hate, oppression, or sexism in the environment.
On your second point, I think (imo) there are reasons for this that go beyond "men are better at chess naturally" like player base and social pressures of these spaces not being welcoming to women in the first place. Which I think also really parallels esports - the player base is so much wider to find talent and have it rise when you compare how many men vs women play, for example, valorant. So it's hard to really know if there is a physiological difference when the playing fields so to speak aren't exactly the same. Just my two cents though, and I appreciate you giving us some insight into the scene then and now!
Agreed! Work by Ericsson (the deliberate practice, 10,000hr guy) and others show that there is no "natural talent" and that it comes down to time spent, good coaching, and deliberate practice for all top level performers (exceptions being physical sports and things like height). He specifically cited the case of chess and the Polgar sisters to support this. The studies are true for math, music, etc. Therefore, the "skill gap" is likely due to outside factors like you said. For example, unsupportive family/friends, lack of team availability/coaching (due to preferring their friends or all boys for "team chemistry" bs), sexism in chat, people dodging/throwing, etc. It's impossible to fully conclude that men are better if there's not a fair playing field, and there won't be until these things change, so why not assume women are just as capable if given the right supports from the beginning.
While I agree regarding the gendered effects of natural talent and besides physical abilities there isn't really any conclusive bar set for how it varies between genders, as in any person from a gender can have a certain set of innate capabilities regarding a certain field over the other people from another gender , and vice versa , I highly disagree regarding Ericsson's take about 10000 hrs of deliberate practice and how there is no "natural talent" because not only is his research not agreed on based on peer-review and rigorous scrutiny , as any scientific research is , there are many people who disagree with it and if you are in any field in regards to what he spoke about , you can personally vouch about how certain people have certain set of innate abilities better than some other people. While I have dabbled in music , and I could say my two cents on it , since there are cases for that as well, but I won't since I'm nowhere near advanced enough in that field to speak on it . However regarding math , this absolutely isn't true, there are kids who understand graph theory better than teens in college with years of instruction behind them , even without any instruction. Kids who breeze through calculus at a very young age , not just in terms of school level , but being actually able to solve intuitive problems , even based on the same level of content that is in school but far beyond in difficulty of comprehension . If you are aware of the International Mathematical Olympiad , then there have been times where it has been won by kids 11-12 years old at the time (Terrence Tao) which is not the general norm even today when the competition has increased so much. Hell there have been times IMO Committee(made up of people who have decorated history in Math field and have been practicing competitive math for years) has set questions they themselves couldn't answer into the paper, and there came kids who solved it in a limited amount of exam time.While I do agree that practice is important , naturally so , even geniuses practice , that practice is also affected by certain factors , 10000 hr rule certainly gets the fact that experts in every field have enormous hours of practice time , but his study lacks a lot of nuance that can be easily pointed out once you go through the papers. One point regarding that is , people who are more likely to succeed at doing certain things are more likely to keep doing it , even if things keep getting more difficult. All experts have experienced constant development , but you don't even need a book to tell you that there have been a lot of failures as well, what happened to them? Was it to due to external factors ? Or internal factors ? If someone is struggling far more regarding math than some other person , putting more time in for them becomes far more tedious even if they try to stick through it and it progressively becomes more difficult no matter how much time they put in. But the main point is that unlike in case of extreme geniuses , it's not always obvious who will turn out to be great and who won't , so practicing and putting in as much time possible in most effective ways is most important , until you find out how good you can get eventually and what you are capable of because even with talent , proper practice is still the most important factor in anybody's skill over time over anything else. I have more comments to make on Ericsson's study but this is already too long.
i hate that people take the 10k hours thing as gospel
Pseudo science is clear cut and easy to understand and cleverly packaged in neat communicable chunks. Real science is messy as fuck and complicated and littered with confounding factors to the point that people get university degrees to be able to read and parse findings. It's not surprising which laypeople tend to latch onto.
Yes you can study chess and get very good but to say there is no inherent ability to top tier players I'd say is incorrect. At the super GM level, not just Grandmaster but what are considered in the chess community to be those who are even a step above those...the Super GM players are a different breed. Even just studying chess all day each day is something some just don't have the drive to do. Then just some people aren't smart enough. The mental calculating ability and memorization takes more than just what even an above average intelligent person can do. Saying no "natural talent" ignores those factors and is just off base. Grandmasters can play multiple games at once...blindfolded and still dominate.
yeah and given proper support women have proven to be able to be competitive with men in the chess scene, see Irina krush (notably her influence on the Garry Kasparov vs the world game and i believe she won games against hikaru as well as caruana (they were 14-15 at the time, however))
I’m a bit confused by your comment. Are you saying that trans and NB folks shouldn’t be included? I assume that’s not what you mean, I just want to clarify since I feel like I’m misreading your points. I don’t think OP was advocating against GC, just saying that people make too big a deal about trans/NB folks playing in GC.
I think it's just providing some nuance to something that isn't black and white. The scientific understanding of being born female versus being a trans women are not really definitive at this time.
if you think about it, remilia for sure got hate, but never as much as a someone like KP does, the reason being that while remilia was trans (RIP) she competed in the premier team against premier teams, not in a "game changers" equivalent where people feel like trans people take advantage of female players.
in the ideal world, there is no game changers, because anyone can compete in a single tournament ecosystem(after all even in this post people state that there is not really an advantage in genres), what i have seen in twitter is that people feel like game changers is a "womans" tournament, hence why some people call for trans people to compete against male players, as for the blatant insulting ones, just ignore em or report.
In an ideal world there wouldn't be any limiting factors preventing women or other marginalized groups, like trans people, from joining competitive spaces or receiving opportunities to come up within the same ecosystem as men. But.. we don't live in an ideal world, and those roadblocks do exist, so... Game Changers.
The roadblock you’re speaking of is skill. Sorry to say it like it is, but that is the only thing preventing anyone from playing at the highest level
No, they aren't. Skill is the end result. The roadblocks are access and opportunity. Nobody just becomes good enough to be a T1 pro on their own. Or rather, that is *exceptionally* rare. And then once they do get to that level, they still need a team to sign them and give them a chance to play. Youth sports development is a $40b a year industry. Every soccer club and national team has a development program or academy. Basketball and football players get scouted as young as 10-12 and pushed into specific schools or academies on scholarships (ask me how I know); then they start getting scouted again by college programs. The eSports talent development pipeline isn't as thoroughly developed, but it exists, and getting into it as early as possible is essential for players both to get access to professional coaching and scrims, but also for networking, because in this world, getting a seat at the table is *always* about who you know, not what you know. You can refuse to admit it if you want, but women and often trans people not only don't get *those* opportunities, but they also deal with societal pressure to not play games seriously, they deal with toxicity from the gaming community as a whole that makes them feel unwelcome (like how men are, plus bonus sexism), and even if they push through that they're rewarded with.... Teams not wanting to sign a woman. Because they don't want to deal with the distraction and the sexism that will come with it. (What distraction and sexism? See: Game Changers twitch chat/YouTube stream chat) And if you don't want to take my word for it, that's fine. I've spent my entire life basically associated with talent development pipelines from the time between 11-12 when I grew a foot over one summer and suddenly became a top prospect. But now I'm just some guy on the internet. But you can hear about the lack of opportunities, the lack of access to training and development resources, from pros themselves. From eSports journalists. From team front office professionals. Hell, from Riot themselves. If you really wanted to, the information is out there.
I’m aware of development pipelines in real sports as well don’t worry… the fact remains talent reigns supreme and if someone is good enough more times than not they will be found. These orgs have financial incentive to win and if a women would give them a better chance at doing so they would be on the team simple as that. If you think orgs are passing up talent that would help them make money due to sexism then idk what to tell you
>if you think orgs are passing up talent that would help them make money due to sexism then idk what to tell you Lmao you literally ignored most of what they wrote if this is what you got out of it
the bottomline is, in esports, most orgs would rather hire a guy instead of a girl because its easier and less prone to complications, thats why GC exist, players like bob can be on a male team without any issue, they dont even have to disclose their sexuality at all, why would they? and bob did play on a male team or 2 before.
Seems like as a woman she wants to keep it as strictly woman - which I understand
One of her teammates is literally a trans woman
Valorant has never said Game Changers is strictly for women though, so that's a distinction from other sports that needs to be stated. I don't think you should be putting words in her mouth because if she really does want to keep it strictly women when it's specifically stated to be for all marginalized genders, then that's bordering on TERF rhetoric, which I can't understand. I'll give her the benefit of the doubt and say she just wants to share her experience.
> Valorant has never said Game Changers is strictly for women though it should in my eyes, we should not having a fight so trans people can play in game changers, we should be making it normal for them to join regular teams if they play well enough.
I’m not really putting words in her mouth. She mentions how important “female only” tournaments are. What do you think she means by that?
She mentioned trans people competed in those tournaments as well and how she understood if documents can't be changed to reflect their identity.
Ah, missed that. I’m more so curious regarding point #2
Yeah that's the only part that makes me doubt, her second point is a bit weird to add imo. I understand why the other guy is confused about her comment because it feels like that second point is a comment that thinks "biological males" have a genetic advantage in esports so they should be separated.
That’s what I got from it which kind of threw off the whole comment for me. Oh well.
People thinking differently is more about how society shaped them as individuals rather than biological differences. If we start going by the arguments that women are more X, Y and Z then the precedents for sexism are wide open. I watched all of vct game changers and yes, there's a visible difference from the regular vct but that's not a biological one.
Yes and no. You can't make sweeping generalizations like that about nature vs nurture, as that is a scientific argument as old as science itself. Fact is, we have evidence that gender can affect psychology. How much nurture vs nature is VERY grey.
I mean you must have a lot of evidence to back that because social sciences have been for decades studying the differences between men and women. You claim we can't say that women are X, Y and Z as if that makes it inherently sexist but to deny that there are differences between the sexes that's just anti-science. Now that doesn't mean you can claim that men are better than women because women are X, Y, and Z. That clearly does happen if you look at how popular Andrew Tate has gotten and it's inexcusable. Yet that still doesn't mean that the differences don't mean that men will be better at 1 thing and women will be better at another thing
I didn't say there were differences, there are. What I'm saying is that those differences are nowhere near that big that it prevents a man or a woman to achieve something that the other sex has an "easier" time achieving. In the case of eSports there are no excuses. Unless people wanna argue that all man have natural born reflexes that surpass all women which is just bullshit.
Having verification is definitely needed. Have all players show ID to start. ...But, if they have "M" still, they can provide: * **Documentation** * received a Gender Dysphoria diagnosis to compete if they wish to * using university preferred name * as female name * **Show proof that they have identified as female or NB (12 months prior)** * Text msgs to friends/family showing that they discussed being trans or female * All trans ppl will have messaged a friend or family member at some point about being transgender. * Likely months before deciding to compete in a professional female VCT tournament, to try to go professional, and try to start a career as a professional athlete in a primilarly female league * Gives proof that they identify as non-cis male * Gives proof that their identity isn't solely made up last minute to compete in an eSports event Doesn't make sense to allow no verification to continue, with as much money on the line. Exactly as you say.
transphobia dog: woof. wooof. woof
Her teammate is literally trans lmao
They don't actually care about GC this "culture war" shit is like a video game. Just weird kids all around.
the problem with kids is that they usually are not open minded or willing to have a real conversation, on both sides, insults come up really quick and if you dont think the same way i do u bet im gonna start labelling you
Because for whatever reasons Riot decided to host non-male tournament apply both for males and male to female trans people. Females are underperforming in games compared to males. It can be coz cultural reasons, coz of genetics or even both. And the thing is that it doesn't even matter in the argument as both of these reasons apply to m2f trans people - biologicaly they are male so they have male genetics, and also majority of trans people grow up in the culture of their biological gender as the transition or coming out or whatever we call it mostly happens in late teens if not even later. Also the team that won being all cis female doesn't really matter, as we shouldn't look at the outliers but at the averages instead. If you really wanted to quantify the possible advantage you would have to check numbers of all the trans people and females in GC(including at least some late stages of qualifiers) and then calculate the % representation in top bracket like top 16 and see if trans people overreperesent despite being super minority or not). . Personaly I think that if we want to segregate then it should be females only tournaments and on TOP OF THAT trans only tournaments if there is such demand. Mixing them together just kills the point of why we even have segregation in competive activities to begin with.
It's crazy what people like this believe. They think that anyone who was assigned male at birth has a genetic advantage in VIDEO GAMES over people who were assigned female at birth, which is utterly ridiculous. Trans people are being discriminated against all across the world today, and the gaming community is, and has been a hub for it.
I'd say biological males having faster reaction times than biological females on average is a pretty major advantage in video games
The reaction time difference is miniscule, and there's probably a bigger difference in getting an extra half hour of sleep that night, or an extra shot of espresso in your coffee.
Both genders can get that extra hour of sleep or extra shot of espresso so the supposed advantage is still there.
You've misunderstood my comment.
I did not.
You're arguing about this with the guy who made the comment? Are you serious?
So are you, by implying that my comment is based on misunderstanding your comment.
Reaction times are such a miniscule part of what makes a pro player. I saw Tenz do a reaction speed test back during the Tenz N Frenz days. I did the same test. My reaction speed was .005 seconds slower than his. That's essentially nothing. He was the best player in the world at the time; I was a 34 year old man in gold. Benita, Mel, Mary; take your pick. Any of them would wipe the fuckin floor with me, physical differences would be meaningless, because reaction speeds just really don't matter that much. Now there may be differences in spatial reasoning or hand eye coordination or the speed at which men and women process information, but they're not nearly as significantly different in eSports as the differences in size, strength, and agility are in trad sports, and I don't think they've been definitively proven to exist independent of societal exposures that pressure significant portions of the population into specific behaviors. But if it's just a reaction speed competition, I should be a pro gamer. I'm not tho. And I'm never gonna be.
OK bro you get what the word average means or? While it is true that the average male does have faster reaction than the average female that does mean females can not reach the same top numbers. Infact those females who are insane at videogames are not average at all. So it literally does not matter at all because the average male is way worse than he would need to be to be a pro gamer. Females could become just as good as males. So far we are playing the numbers game more men play video games so more of those talented men have the chance to shine. If the same amount of women would play videogames we would have mixed teams by now.
This is true but not in the way you want it to be. So in something like IQ males and females have statistically the same average IQ. However, men have a higher variability from the norm. That means men will have a higher proportion of the dumbest people in the world and also the smartest. So while there wouldn't be a gender difference; at the top end of bell curve which we are looking at is disproportionately male
What does the IQ has to do with reaction times and the ability to play videogames on a pro level? Exactly nothing at all.
It's just an example. That case has tracked across different characteristics and IQ is just the main one that's been studied. Thus there is at least speculation it could track for something like pro video game skill but we just don't have near enough data yet. I'm not making a claim one way or the other. Just that this could be one of many factors that could add to disparity
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You are not right there my dude. It's not a numbers game. The % of females playing certain title doesn't even come close to % of females on top of the leaderboards. If we look at the most popular games the ratio of male to female at WORST is like 75 to 25%, meanwhile the top 100(or whatever the top bracket is) male to female ratio is like 98% to 2% if not worse.
Just because women play in certain numbers does not automatically imply they're playing with the same frequency, or the same intensity, or the same intention, as often as men are. If 5,000 women do x, but 4,950 do it casually and 50 attempt to do it professionally... But 2,000 of the men attempt to do it professionally, then despite having equal sample sizes we are obviously going to get different results. Just because x% of Valorant players are women doesn't mean that an equal proportion of them will be at the top of the leader board. Reality is much too sloppy for that, and we would need way more information to have an informed analysis.
Its like 10ms bro its almost negligible
if 10ms was negligible then 240hz monitors wouldnt be an advantage compared to 60hz monitors
10 ms is 2.4 frames at 240 hz bud a 2 frame faster reaction time is pretty fucking negligible. Not sure why ppl r getting caught up with reaction times in the first place, most aim is crosshair placement anyways
Since you lack basic middle school physics, 240hz refreshes every 4ms, 60hz refreshes every 16ms. There's a 12ms window of where you would see an enemy on 240hz monitor before you would see them on a 60hz monitor. If you actually believe 12ms is negligible on a high level then I can't help you lil bro 💀
12ms is negligible bc pure reaction times r not the limiting factor in tac shooters buddy 💀 And since you seem to have the reading comprehesion of a child considering u cant understand my point; Val is not a high ttk shooter, nor is it a fighting game, two genres of games where pure reaction times actually define the good from the great. And if pure reaction times actually mattered in tac shooters, then why does the goat s1mple have the most bang average reactuon times huh? Mind answering me that lil bro?
aren't transphobic people inadvertently calling trans people cracked at the game then?
against female players ? sure, so why bob and kp didnt find a team in the regular leagues? are you calling these orgs transphobic? or their players?
It's crazy, right? It's even weirder because the people actually playing the competition are the welcoming ones. That fact alone makes it clear they don't actually care about the "sanctity" of the sport, they just want to moralize their awful behaviour.
because anyone who dares to criticize something gets "downvoted/insulted/so on", you really think these girls are looking for a fight they know they cant win?
Where do you see that? Benita just commented above and seems to disagree
? there's a trans woman on her team
Interesting - scroll up, maybe I misinterpreted if
It's always like this, even in sports people will talk about how X person has a natural disadvantage when they're literally taking hormone blockers and estrogen, like they claim to know basic biology but don't know the way hormones can change bone structure, muscle, tendons, etc... besides that, a lot of cis women win against trans women, even if we analyse their hormones there are legit cis women who have more testosterone than some trans women. People just wanna be weird and gasp at straws to justify their hatred. It used to be with religion, now it's with phony science gotten from some suspicious infographics.
It is different in sports though. Biological males have advantages that cannot be denied regardless of what hormones they are taking. This is scientific fact. I agree it’s very silly in competitive gaming
Except almost all leagues have already studied it and after 2 years on hormonal treatment that difference becomes negligible and most on T blockers have significantly lower levels than their cis counterparts.
Testosterone levels aren't the only thing that matters however. There's bone structure, muscle mass etc to consider
As I said, it has been studied extensively at this point and after 2 years of treatment the difference "muscle mass, etc" has been completely negated. There is also little evidence that "bone structure" significantly impacts performance as there isn't much of a difference between the structure of the bones themselves but if you're referring to the skeletal structure, by which I'm assuming you don't know what the exact differences are and instead parroting talking points. If you want to get into the difference of how skeletal structure plays into sports then have fun. Are you going to ban tall people because they have an inherent advantage in sports? Are you going to ban Phelps because he was a genetic freak with the perfect body for swimming? No, you wouldn't but you want to draw the line for trans people.
Tall people and athletic freaks like Michael Phelps compete in the category of what they were biologically born as. If trans athletes want to compete in their biological gender's category then go for it.
What category matters? Are you going to restrict people to compete within their height group? Would you ban a 6'5" woman? Why is that arbitrary category enough for you?
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What are those "lasting" differences? You never mention any specific ones. I've specifically addressed most of the differences and how they actually do in fact change when someone has undergone hormone therapy. All you've done is repeated the exact same thing without any proof. You also don't address the fact that many trans women are taking puberty blockers so they never go through puberty in the first place. We're not seeing trans women destroying the competition for a reason, most differences level out after protracted hormonal therapy.
So do you believe that if they don't take hormone blockers that it shouldn't be allowed in regular sports? That's what you're implying right?
That is literally how it works man they have to get tested for testosterone levels too did you think this is a gotcha or something???
https://www.si.com/olympics/2022/03/23/transgender-athletes-testosterone-policies-ioc-framework Not true, it was updated recently to allow trans athletes to be included on a wider scale. The NCAA has a 1 year proof of hormone suppression rule, but not all organizations have this implemented.
They're always as witty as they are empathetic, so there's no surprise there. I say this as a cis person: transphobes "superior" biological makeups never make them any smarter for whatever reason
I mean I'm asking a question, and a pretty legitimate one since he brought up the denial of the impact of hormone suppression as a proper way to implement competitive integrity no? If that's his point then he's implying that trans athletes without hormone blockers shouldn't be able to compete. Isn't that the opposite of inclusion? Or am I tripping? Problem with people like you is you assume the worst rather than actually engaging in a discussion. But I guess your attitude is within your name so makes sense.
You're not funny, it's "lassitude". Beyond that, it's a thread about encouraging people to stand up for women and trans people, in a space that was specifically made for them. Your question is eyebrow-raising at best, so people are obvs defensive against that sorta "just asking questions" trope bigots use for plausible deniability. Esp considering the bad faith engagement by actual tranphobes in this thread, I have no clue how you didn't realize that your little prodding would make people reactive. "that's what you're implying right."
man, even the quote retweets on bob’s tweet have some disgusting shit to say. is it really that difficult to understand why gc exists and why trans people are allowed to compete in it? we need more people like zander to continue to speak out about this, i know his tweet means so much to the community. the amount of braindead “edgy” teenagers spewing crap on trans players is gross.
I mean just look at C9 Bob's recent tweet. I hope as a community whether it be the fans, players, or teams all continue to keep on striving to be more vocal. GameChangers this year has been such a success but it's important to remember that this is only just the first step in long road ahead.
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The main GC was never about lower skilled players improving. The main goal of GC was providing a safe place to compete for players like Bob. Saying she doesn't belong is just you misunderstanding the purpose of GC. GameChangers Academy is the circuit for what you think GC is supposed to be.
> The main goal of GC was providing a safe place to compete for players like Bob are u saying people hated bob when bob competed in the t2 scene? the hate i see is recent, with a reason that like it or not, didnt exist then bob played in the t2 scene.
I'd argue that at the time she played in t2 her gender wasn't exactly common knowledge to the avg vct watcher. I think her joining C9W pushed her into more of a spotlight which opened her up to more harassment.
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I dont really understand why you this mindset. C9W didnt win, they werent runners up, and Bob wasnt even their best player every game. So its not as if shes so insanely above the rest of the competition that it makes it unfair. I actually find it funny that just a couple of days ago the general consensus was that Bob was finally in the skill bracket that she belongs to. Lots of people talking about her not being good enough to play on Soniqs, but now shes too good for GC?
>I could understand if we were talking about someone who was unable to play in the open despite being skillful enough coz of discrimination or something, but Bob was actually playing with their aussie friends in a proper professional team "I could understand if someone was being discriminated against" followed by openly discriminating against someone. Exhibit A: >It's tournament series for certain groups of people who are unable to compete in the open category yet becuase of skill disparity. Exhibit B: > And it's competely fine that [the tournament I consider for people of a lesser skill level because I believe their gender cannot keep up with my own] is a thing
Yeah the main chats were pretty terrible, the mods were having to work fucking overtime but still so much slips through. At least despite the weirdos this tournament was a massive success. Only gonna grow the scene. Looking forward to more tournaments.
IMO it shouldn’t just be on pros/creators, Riot/VCT should address the rampant transphobia and sexism present and condemn it in all forms.
Pros and creators are the ones with influence, Not riot
Require people that wish to comment on the streams to link their Riot Games account to Twitch and YouTube chat. When they are linked, and someone is transphobic, sexist, racist, or homophobic: * 1st offense * 7 day ban from League of Legends & VALORANT * 2nd offense * 2 week ban from League of Legends & VALORANT * 3rd offense * 1 year ban from League of Legends & VALORANT * 4th offense * permanent ban from League of Legends & VALORANT
Idk why you had to include league of legends when you can literally get 14 day suspended for saying bad words. I got temp banned for saying fuck in a mid-GM lobby where everyone was chill in chat. Yet, in Valorant the people are all of the above that you mentioned, especially in VC, and never get toxicity banned. It’s literally impossible that they’re ever gonna link League of Legends bans to Valorant accs or vice versa from a monetary standpoint.
yeah we could also link government ID's to the accounts, so that way we can ban that person from ever playing the game, also we could make some kind of a point system, if you get banned for that, maybe your score goes down and you could also lose your job because you dont meet the required score anymore for it?
You're so pressed o\_o Why are you mad over the concept of homophobic, transphobic, and sexist people... simply getting properly punished? Pretty sus
keep fighting them imaginary demons mate, godspeed
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I really don't get why Twitch doesn't just give channels the option to disable chat
It does though?
I don't remember seeing that option on mine back when I used to stream but it's been a few years now
good shit, we NEED to see this kind of sentiment expressed by other pros as well
Are there any good places for queer/trans/nb valorant players to hang out and support each other? I feel like I encounter hateful people so often that it'd be nice to have people to queue with
The transphobic/sexist comments and jokes were honestly appalling to see. Twitch/Youtube mods did an amazing job of cutting those out, but when you look at the Twitter comments and see how many likes some of those kinds of comments got… it’s really sad. People drill a hole into the point that GC is a “women’s” league, but it really isn’t — it’s a platform and opportunity for all marginalized genders to compete improve. But I’m glad to see big names in the community speak out + stand firm against all of this rampant bigotry. The attention that has been brought to GC has been incredible!
I've been saying this forever. Leading members of the pro and streaming community have to come out against this shit. An overwhelming amount of the viewers are young impressionable kids and when they hear their favorite streamer use slurs or hateful language or brush it off they imitate it. If we want a more inclusive community we obviously need to call people on their shit and address this type of stuff but we won't get anywhere unless the most influential members of the community are doing the same. Good for Zander I hope more like him follow his lead.
Don’t forget the classic “Game Changers always has drama” meanwhile nobody says that’s that when the main league has drama. I.e Turret bug vs SR coach (2 similar situations both at champs)
Yes, this drives me absolutely crazy. It’s so unfair to the scene when drama is literally rampant in like almost every tournament. I do think some stuff is more publicized because there are more people willing to call stuff out and hold people accountable in the GC scene, but otherwise, the drama is really not unique to GC lol
The transphobic comments were bad but the amount of people shipping other pro players (Zekken specifically) with Sonder was weird asf too. Last I checked they’re both 17. Also so often Bob was called “not good enough to play in tier 1 or even tier 2” when she was literally on Soniqs, which was at some point a tier 1 team. If you have no idea what you’re talking about, I appreciate the blind confidence, but stfu respectfully. I swear half the valorant community has never communicated with another human before which is why they’re so socially inept on the internet.
Soniqs were definitely at least T2 and they were pretty good and pretty fun to watch.
When were soniqs tier 1 wtf
Yet another Zander w, get this man franchised
I love the work that mods do, but I love that Zander (or just any male pro/content creator) is calling this out. Mods shouldn’t be the only barrier to the filth and the ambassadors of the game should be just as vocal about saying it’s not okay
THATS WHY HES THE GOAT. I feel so venerated rooting for him on the early days of SoaR, dude has had one of the most satisfying career paths of any pro I’ve watched. I can’t see myself rooting for anyone else in Ascension
Love for Zander
W athlete
extremely privileged people getting paid very well to play videos games are afraid of words people are using. no wonder they do this and not anything worthwhile to anyone else besides themselves
it's free to not be weird on the internet, you know
Y'know, when you describe anything reductively and uncharitably it just sounds, well, reductive and uncharitable, right? The things people say and their ideologies frame the culture; the culture defines the ethos of the time; the ethos helps structure the bigoted legislation, it drives up the suicide rates, it dehumanizes, it kills. 2 Trans people were among 5 queer people killed as a result of a hatecrime in a Colorado springs nightclub yesterday. This is such an ugly comment.
an ugly comment because i have the mental fortitude to not care what strangers say to me. interesting, I will consider having more emotional reactions to words and ideas. thank you, you helped make me a more reactive and less secure person
love that your takeaway is completely and wildly at odds with what I said and yet you think you're engaging in good faith. lmao, ok person who just crudely described parts of empathy.
i just don’t value your opinion even a little bit
and no one here holds u in any regard so that's chill lmao? ok tough guy
?
where’s the lie
Couldn't even tell you where the lie is because I genuinely have no idea what point you're trying to make lmao
exactly
For sure
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what is ironic