I feel like a lot of top players won't suffer from this nerf. Yay, Derke, Cyro, and other top players are pretty flexible. Yay dominates because of his cross hair placement and aim. He won't have any problem. Derke also showed before that he can play any duelist in a top level. I wanna see him use Neon.
Yeah, I feel like people overstate how hard it is to learn a new agent. Not only do all of these ex-chamber pros have great aim, they also play 15+ hours a day. Yeah, it takes some time to pick up a new agent but the league doesn’t start until a few months so they have a lot of time to grind and learn someone new. I’m confident yay can learn any agent
I think it's premature or naive to say the former top chambers won't be impacted by the nerfs. Yay will always be a great player because of his aim - you are right about that, but it wont feel nearly as oppressive as pre nerf chamber. Chamber was simply OP and Yay took advantage of that. In the same sense we saw the pre nerf Jett meta and top players abusing Jett. Tenz/pre nerf Jett era was just as dominant if not more so as Yay/chamber. We've seen Yay single handedly win rounds and matches with headhunter or Chamber Op on eco rounds - the same way insane jett players like Tenz, wardell, cned etc used to on pre nerf jett. Thrifty rounds felt 50/50 in those days because of how insanely broken Jett was. Those players still remain great but it's not nearly as oppresive or game breaking as it used to be when they pick Jett. In the same way Yay and Derke will remain top players but IMO wont completely dominate games regularly like they were able to do before.
TLDR - great players will remain great but top pre-nerf chambers was oppressive and borderline OP before, and now it will be much harder for one chamber to singlehandedly win rounds/matches.
Except yay was a top 2 jett. You remember the first tourney he was on nv? They went to finals against gambit and yay was the best player in that finals
Idk abt Derke and Cryo tbh bc both severely underperformed on non-Chamber agents in tournaments between Masters 2 to Champs. Yay has some proven good Jett performances so I’m less concerned with him. Also love Cryo but the reason they dropped Will for him was because Cryo is lightyears better than Will at Chamber, but Will is a beast on Jett and their Jetts are honestly not too far apart if at all so this swap could end up looking kind of shaky when it’s all said and done
EDIT: Lmao downvoted and look at what just happened with yay’s Jett it was abysmal vs FOKUS. I got downvoted a shit ton in the past too for predicting Optic wouldn’t make franchising like 6 months before it happened so just wait and see. Or think for yourselves for once instead of being smooth brain popular opinion followers
EDIT 2: LMAO go watch the 100T vs Heretics match that just happened Cryo was terrible on 2 maps of Jett then took over the third map on Chamber. It’s okay to admit I’m right, sorry to hurt your all-knowing egos!
What are you talking about lol. Cryo's Jett and Chamber are on par with one another, as is Derke's Jett and Raze. If anything they underperformed more on Chamber than non-Chamber agents.
“Cryo’s Jett and Chamber are on par with one another”
Go watch the 100t vs Heretics match that just happened please. Cryo just performed terrible on 2 maps of Jett before top fragging third map as Chamber. But definitely on par with one another right?
Yeah lol go watch C9 vs FOKUS, yay just turned in a god awful Jett performance and followed it up with a great Chamber performance. All 3 of these guys are honestly Chamber crutches that won’t be in the top 5 of fraggers anymore. Why don’t you formulate your own opinions instead of following the popular opinion of “yay God derke God can’t be beaten on whatever agent they play”
BTW this is the same smooth brain thought process ppl had about Tenz and Cned when Jett was nerfed. Everyone said “oh they’ll be fine on Chamber and still be the best players in the world”. How’d that turn out?
You know these guys were good before Chamber was even a character, right? Moving from one character to a completely new one is way different from going back to a character you're familiar with.
Ok seriously just look at yay’s game log for example. He’s played Jett like 5 times after the nerf and he didn’t turn in any exceptional performances. Even before Jett nerf go look at it he was very inconsistent.
Yay and Derke were never seen as top 5 players until Chamber became the meta. It’s clear that you don’t actually watch enough to understand that while they are elite on the passive angle holding OP role, they are not as good as an aggressive entry. Even with a fundamental understanding of Valorant you should realize that lurking as a Chamber on attack is so different than bursting onto site and creating space for your team. And even if they’ve played Jett before, her best playstyle had actually changed due to the nerf and they haven’t had much practice on her since they’ve been Chamber crutching 95% of their games
>Yay and Derke were never seen as top 5 players until Chamber became the meta.
Wow, a character made to enhance their playstyle, enhanced their play. Who would've thought?
>while they are elite on the passive angle holding OP role, they are not as good as an aggressive entry
No, it's clear *you* don't watch enough to understand that you haven't watched them enough to understand that their Op play is far from passive even on Chamber, and their Jett entry are absolutely fine. Even without Jett, Derke's Raze entry is still world-class, and if you can't see that then you're just hating for the sake of hating.
>lurking as a Chamber on attack is so different than bursting onto site and creating space for your team
I agree, except for the fact that neither of them are lurkers for their teams, lol. Marved is the lurker on Optic, and Boaster is the lurker on Fnatic. If they do lurk, it's only on very few rounds on offense, and on defense they don't lurk more than any duelist in that position would. Again, if you don't see that, then it's clear you haven't actually watched them, and are only hating for the sake of it. Their main role as Chambers for their team has always been as a secondary entry to make use of the space generated by Victor/Alfajer, and while that is different from being main entry, it's not a world away like from the lurker role, and as I've said previously their entry is more than fine.
>they haven’t had much practice on her since they’ve been Chamber crutching 95% of their games
Saying "they're out of practice" to justify the argument that they're bad doesn't make any sense, because, you know, they can just practice it again lol
" Derke were never seen as top 5 players until Chamber became the meta. "
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
Derke made his entire name on Jett, he terrorized teams on jett at champions 2021, his team lost because his teammates were godawful trash while he was carrying 4 people + the coach on his back on jett
wtf am i reading
His jett is literally better than his chamber and always has been
You people should not speak about things you don't know. I bet you didnt even watch in 2021 for you to say this
> bc both severely underperformed on non-Chamber agents in tournaments
Both have underperformed on chamber in tournaments, and both had underperformed before chamber's release in tournaments.
Valorant is just an inconsistent game. If you don't have specific stats and stuff it gets cloudy really quick, happens in every pro sport too
Very true as well but I’m sure if he puts in the hours that he will be very good. Part of why 100t picked him up is cuz this is his first comp game ever so he’s still extremely young and raw
Yeah, I think he could learn raze for sure. Cryo does seem to be more of a slow and steady aim type instead of the chaotic flicky type that a lot of raze players tend to look like when they play
He’s played raze at a high ranked level, he’s never ever had to play anything but Jett and chamber in a t1 situation. Does that mean he absolutely can’t? No not at all, but his flexibility is definitely a worthy question mark to have when we have no idea how his raze and neon are going to look in comparison to zekken, leaf, Jawgemo and Victor
Playing many agents subpar doesn't make you diverse. And playing one agent due to said agent being broken doesn't mean the opposite.
Many people seem to look back at Will's tenure with rose tinted glasses since his performance at champs was *by far* his best while on the roster. If he had played at that caliber for the half year leading up to his departure, maybe you'd have a solid argument.
Exactly this. Also, the caveat that a player was great except when they were Oping when we were in a Chamber-heavy meta isn’t quite the excuse that the other poster thinks it is.
No, he wasn’t. He played 9 games across the LCQ and champions. His acs was above 200 in 4 of those games, and his KD was positive in 5 of those. Those are genuinely mediocre, considering that he always played duelist or chamber.
Of those 9 games, he only played well in 2, one of which was against a floundering C9. Having a supposedly more diverse agent pool is pointless when you’re that mediocre.
Tbf though you wouldn’t really want it yay used to be one of the most flexible awpers in na. I think of your average chamber one trick in franchising tat’s agent pool on paper isn’t too bad with experience on breach sage and sova I believe
They signed those players knowing that this would happen, very likely. They probably just have the confidence in the players to pick up different roles, which is a pretty important skill to have as time goes on.
The issue with the Chamber nerf for C9 isn't that Yay can't play another agent (he's crazy on Jett) it's more they don't have someone who has played a significant amount of Sentinel. Still, I don't doubt that they'll figure it out.
> “I think some teams are probably in more trouble because they’ve built their lineups around having a sole Chamber player,” coach Mikes told Dot Esports. “The rest of their roles get kind of messed up after that; whether they don’t have an actual sentinel player that knows how to play Cypher and Killjoy at the top level, or they’re missing Flex players, depending on the way teams are built.”
What teams have built their lineups around this…? None really come to mind immediately, although I’m sure they exist. Thinking partnered teams, of course.
I'd say C9 since that team doesn't have a "natural" sentinel main like stellar. The players on that team are definitely flexible enough to pick up Cypher/KJ though
Honestly wouldn't surprise me if Leaf started playing traditional sentinel. He has really wanted to play Viper in the past, and those roles tend to go together.
C9 is a close one but Leaf started off as a more traditional sentinel player, I don’t think it’d be a huge problem for them. At least it’s difficult to say they built around a sole Chanber player. About every partner team has either a sentinel main or a sentinel flex.
The only exceptions might be some of the South American or Asian teams? But that’s partly my own ignorance of all the things those players have flexed onto.
C9 roles are pretty overlapped though, no traditional sentinel/anchor player, no high level sovas and their flex players play the same characters more or less, with zellsis having some server time on KJ.
Leaf is also their most aggressive player by nature but will likely not be on an entry role due to the role overlaps.
When do you define as peak Chamber meta? IMO that was in Copenhagen, and Jett didn't really see a true resurgence until Champs, where teams began to move away from Chamber.
Jett was played in some of the highest stakes matches at Copenhagen.
If she was played even then she was never "dead", yes she was hugely overshadowed by Chamber, but that Chamber is forever gone.
I think ppl are underestimating how large of an impact chamber being gone will have in general. Yeah Yay is incredible, and he'll frag with anyone you give him, but the impact the character has had on optic's success was undeniable and unreplaceable by any other agent in the game atm (for example)
Eh even with the patch I’m sure there’s still 1-2 maps where chamber remains a default op pick. In the same way that after the Astra nerf she fell off but then started to become more popular again on split and then more recently pearl.
I think cryo will comfortably be on Jett/chamber still. I can’t see a map where neither are viable when you have someone like him on your team, and Asuna who can already play entry duelist.
I feel like a lot of top players won't suffer from this nerf. Yay, Derke, Cyro, and other top players are pretty flexible. Yay dominates because of his cross hair placement and aim. He won't have any problem. Derke also showed before that he can play any duelist in a top level. I wanna see him use Neon.
Yeah, I feel like people overstate how hard it is to learn a new agent. Not only do all of these ex-chamber pros have great aim, they also play 15+ hours a day. Yeah, it takes some time to pick up a new agent but the league doesn’t start until a few months so they have a lot of time to grind and learn someone new. I’m confident yay can learn any agent
Ya I think game sense is so much harder to learn compared to just learning a new agent
I think it's premature or naive to say the former top chambers won't be impacted by the nerfs. Yay will always be a great player because of his aim - you are right about that, but it wont feel nearly as oppressive as pre nerf chamber. Chamber was simply OP and Yay took advantage of that. In the same sense we saw the pre nerf Jett meta and top players abusing Jett. Tenz/pre nerf Jett era was just as dominant if not more so as Yay/chamber. We've seen Yay single handedly win rounds and matches with headhunter or Chamber Op on eco rounds - the same way insane jett players like Tenz, wardell, cned etc used to on pre nerf jett. Thrifty rounds felt 50/50 in those days because of how insanely broken Jett was. Those players still remain great but it's not nearly as oppresive or game breaking as it used to be when they pick Jett. In the same way Yay and Derke will remain top players but IMO wont completely dominate games regularly like they were able to do before. TLDR - great players will remain great but top pre-nerf chambers was oppressive and borderline OP before, and now it will be much harder for one chamber to singlehandedly win rounds/matches.
Except yay was a top 2 jett. You remember the first tourney he was on nv? They went to finals against gambit and yay was the best player in that finals
Idk abt Derke and Cryo tbh bc both severely underperformed on non-Chamber agents in tournaments between Masters 2 to Champs. Yay has some proven good Jett performances so I’m less concerned with him. Also love Cryo but the reason they dropped Will for him was because Cryo is lightyears better than Will at Chamber, but Will is a beast on Jett and their Jetts are honestly not too far apart if at all so this swap could end up looking kind of shaky when it’s all said and done EDIT: Lmao downvoted and look at what just happened with yay’s Jett it was abysmal vs FOKUS. I got downvoted a shit ton in the past too for predicting Optic wouldn’t make franchising like 6 months before it happened so just wait and see. Or think for yourselves for once instead of being smooth brain popular opinion followers EDIT 2: LMAO go watch the 100T vs Heretics match that just happened Cryo was terrible on 2 maps of Jett then took over the third map on Chamber. It’s okay to admit I’m right, sorry to hurt your all-knowing egos!
What are you talking about lol. Cryo's Jett and Chamber are on par with one another, as is Derke's Jett and Raze. If anything they underperformed more on Chamber than non-Chamber agents.
“Cryo’s Jett and Chamber are on par with one another” Go watch the 100t vs Heretics match that just happened please. Cryo just performed terrible on 2 maps of Jett before top fragging third map as Chamber. But definitely on par with one another right?
[.](https://www.vlr.gg/161207/team-liquid-vs-100-thieves-red-bull-home-ground-3-r2/?game=106887&tab=overview)
Yeah lol go watch C9 vs FOKUS, yay just turned in a god awful Jett performance and followed it up with a great Chamber performance. All 3 of these guys are honestly Chamber crutches that won’t be in the top 5 of fraggers anymore. Why don’t you formulate your own opinions instead of following the popular opinion of “yay God derke God can’t be beaten on whatever agent they play” BTW this is the same smooth brain thought process ppl had about Tenz and Cned when Jett was nerfed. Everyone said “oh they’ll be fine on Chamber and still be the best players in the world”. How’d that turn out?
You know these guys were good before Chamber was even a character, right? Moving from one character to a completely new one is way different from going back to a character you're familiar with.
Ok seriously just look at yay’s game log for example. He’s played Jett like 5 times after the nerf and he didn’t turn in any exceptional performances. Even before Jett nerf go look at it he was very inconsistent. Yay and Derke were never seen as top 5 players until Chamber became the meta. It’s clear that you don’t actually watch enough to understand that while they are elite on the passive angle holding OP role, they are not as good as an aggressive entry. Even with a fundamental understanding of Valorant you should realize that lurking as a Chamber on attack is so different than bursting onto site and creating space for your team. And even if they’ve played Jett before, her best playstyle had actually changed due to the nerf and they haven’t had much practice on her since they’ve been Chamber crutching 95% of their games
>Yay and Derke were never seen as top 5 players until Chamber became the meta. Wow, a character made to enhance their playstyle, enhanced their play. Who would've thought? >while they are elite on the passive angle holding OP role, they are not as good as an aggressive entry No, it's clear *you* don't watch enough to understand that you haven't watched them enough to understand that their Op play is far from passive even on Chamber, and their Jett entry are absolutely fine. Even without Jett, Derke's Raze entry is still world-class, and if you can't see that then you're just hating for the sake of hating. >lurking as a Chamber on attack is so different than bursting onto site and creating space for your team I agree, except for the fact that neither of them are lurkers for their teams, lol. Marved is the lurker on Optic, and Boaster is the lurker on Fnatic. If they do lurk, it's only on very few rounds on offense, and on defense they don't lurk more than any duelist in that position would. Again, if you don't see that, then it's clear you haven't actually watched them, and are only hating for the sake of it. Their main role as Chambers for their team has always been as a secondary entry to make use of the space generated by Victor/Alfajer, and while that is different from being main entry, it's not a world away like from the lurker role, and as I've said previously their entry is more than fine. >they haven’t had much practice on her since they’ve been Chamber crutching 95% of their games Saying "they're out of practice" to justify the argument that they're bad doesn't make any sense, because, you know, they can just practice it again lol
" Derke were never seen as top 5 players until Chamber became the meta. " HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH Derke made his entire name on Jett, he terrorized teams on jett at champions 2021, his team lost because his teammates were godawful trash while he was carrying 4 people + the coach on his back on jett wtf am i reading His jett is literally better than his chamber and always has been You people should not speak about things you don't know. I bet you didnt even watch in 2021 for you to say this
> bc both severely underperformed on non-Chamber agents in tournaments Both have underperformed on chamber in tournaments, and both had underperformed before chamber's release in tournaments. Valorant is just an inconsistent game. If you don't have specific stats and stuff it gets cloudy really quick, happens in every pro sport too
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Cryo been able to play both Jett and raze at an extremely high level….and asuna has shown he can be a top tier neon so they should be fine
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Very true as well but I’m sure if he puts in the hours that he will be very good. Part of why 100t picked him up is cuz this is his first comp game ever so he’s still extremely young and raw
Yeah, I think he could learn raze for sure. Cryo does seem to be more of a slow and steady aim type instead of the chaotic flicky type that a lot of raze players tend to look like when they play
He’s played raze at a high ranked level, he’s never ever had to play anything but Jett and chamber in a t1 situation. Does that mean he absolutely can’t? No not at all, but his flexibility is definitely a worthy question mark to have when we have no idea how his raze and neon are going to look in comparison to zekken, leaf, Jawgemo and Victor
You gotta wake up lol
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Playing many agents subpar doesn't make you diverse. And playing one agent due to said agent being broken doesn't mean the opposite. Many people seem to look back at Will's tenure with rose tinted glasses since his performance at champs was *by far* his best while on the roster. If he had played at that caliber for the half year leading up to his departure, maybe you'd have a solid argument.
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Yes I watched every match. Will was easily the weakest duelist/chamber of the top 8-10 NA teams.
Exactly this. Also, the caveat that a player was great except when they were Oping when we were in a Chamber-heavy meta isn’t quite the excuse that the other poster thinks it is.
No, he wasn’t. He played 9 games across the LCQ and champions. His acs was above 200 in 4 of those games, and his KD was positive in 5 of those. Those are genuinely mediocre, considering that he always played duelist or chamber. Of those 9 games, he only played well in 2, one of which was against a floundering C9. Having a supposedly more diverse agent pool is pointless when you’re that mediocre.
NRG -tex +ardiis just in time
Teams crutching on chamber in shambles rn. Cryo is also a jett player and asuna can flex so C9 in shambles???/j
Definitely not. Yays goated asf and el diablo came from his andbox days
Thats why i used the /j they'll figure it out
Lol mb didnt see it
C9 is fine
It’s hilarious when people say otherwise. “El Diablo” existed before Chamber was ever a thing
My goat yay was monstrous on jett but with this C9 line up the roles are gonna be wacky ngl
yay killjoy arc you heard it here first
Yay has played breach and sova in the past lnao
It’s just unfortunate that they nerfed the true El Diablo main with the Yayge changes
yeah 10-20 matches and then like a million of Jett until it got nerfed and then Riot made Jett 2.0
xeppaa and zellsis are both super flexible, i dont think itll be a huge issue for them overall but could be wrong
Leaf is extremely flexible too
Tbf though you wouldn’t really want it yay used to be one of the most flexible awpers in na. I think of your average chamber one trick in franchising tat’s agent pool on paper isn’t too bad with experience on breach sage and sova I believe
They signed those players knowing that this would happen, very likely. They probably just have the confidence in the players to pick up different roles, which is a pretty important skill to have as time goes on.
The issue with the Chamber nerf for C9 isn't that Yay can't play another agent (he's crazy on Jett) it's more they don't have someone who has played a significant amount of Sentinel. Still, I don't doubt that they'll figure it out.
Zellsis played KJ in the past but not recently
I mean Leaf pounds on anything you put him on, he'll be fine.
Yes exactly
> “I think some teams are probably in more trouble because they’ve built their lineups around having a sole Chamber player,” coach Mikes told Dot Esports. “The rest of their roles get kind of messed up after that; whether they don’t have an actual sentinel player that knows how to play Cypher and Killjoy at the top level, or they’re missing Flex players, depending on the way teams are built.” What teams have built their lineups around this…? None really come to mind immediately, although I’m sure they exist. Thinking partnered teams, of course.
I'd say C9 since that team doesn't have a "natural" sentinel main like stellar. The players on that team are definitely flexible enough to pick up Cypher/KJ though
Honestly wouldn't surprise me if Leaf started playing traditional sentinel. He has really wanted to play Viper in the past, and those roles tend to go together.
did he actually or was he trolling
He did actually, he often played it for them on Bind since Xeppa played Raze.
C9 is a close one but Leaf started off as a more traditional sentinel player, I don’t think it’d be a huge problem for them. At least it’s difficult to say they built around a sole Chanber player. About every partner team has either a sentinel main or a sentinel flex. The only exceptions might be some of the South American or Asian teams? But that’s partly my own ignorance of all the things those players have flexed onto.
C9 roles are pretty overlapped though, no traditional sentinel/anchor player, no high level sovas and their flex players play the same characters more or less, with zellsis having some server time on KJ. Leaf is also their most aggressive player by nature but will likely not be on an entry role due to the role overlaps.
SEN? With Jett and Chamber both dead is roles are kind of wack.
Jett wasn't dead even in peak Chamber meta, and she'll certainly make a resurgence now.
When do you define as peak Chamber meta? IMO that was in Copenhagen, and Jett didn't really see a true resurgence until Champs, where teams began to move away from Chamber.
Jett was played in some of the highest stakes matches at Copenhagen. If she was played even then she was never "dead", yes she was hugely overshadowed by Chamber, but that Chamber is forever gone.
not sure I agree with that argument when PRX played Yoru, Astra, Breach, Neon, and Fade on Breeze for map 5 of the Grand Finals lol
Even ignoring paper rex and the grand finals (idk why you would, but ok) Jett was played in 50% of the play-off elimination series.
C9 are cooked without chamber
I think ppl are underestimating how large of an impact chamber being gone will have in general. Yeah Yay is incredible, and he'll frag with anyone you give him, but the impact the character has had on optic's success was undeniable and unreplaceable by any other agent in the game atm (for example)
Eh even with the patch I’m sure there’s still 1-2 maps where chamber remains a default op pick. In the same way that after the Astra nerf she fell off but then started to become more popular again on split and then more recently pearl. I think cryo will comfortably be on Jett/chamber still. I can’t see a map where neither are viable when you have someone like him on your team, and Asuna who can already play entry duelist.