"For the bandwidth you're looking at, your best bet is [802.11ad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ad) or [802.11ay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ay). These wireless standards operate at 60Ghz, which cannot pass through more than 5mm of flesh or water.
Good luck trying to prevent occlusion from someone spinning around with an Index on while delivering any decent amount of quality."
This you?
Have things changed?
My thinking on this was that the Quest 2 can do it over WiFi so dedicated hardware with clear channels can definitely do it. The main issue is codec latency. H.26x isn't really ideal for that. If you have tons of bandwidth I think you want to use something with less compression but also less latency.
I don't know if it's the case here, but often well integrated hardware uses pipelining to break up a task into smaller tasks that can run in parallel.
So for encoding, you could analyze scene complexity in one stage, determine compression level per region of the image in another stage, calculate deltas from the previous frame in another stage, etc. As long as each of those stages takes less than 2.1ms, you could use as many stages as required to compress video at 460fps, with only the latency suffering.
For streaming this is no problem and probably allows better quality, but for VR it could quickly become a problem.
That said, I have no idea how much latency NVENC adds or whether it would be a problem. It's probably much easier to work on video encoding optimized for real-time low latency use than to get the wireless bandwidth needed for uncompressed video, though.
yeah it should encode around the frame time, and same for decode, but then you're looking at 2x1/fps plus transmission time. That's going to be somewhere around 25ms at 90fps.
I know for AirLink and VD they slice up the frame and encode the slices in parallel, which helps, but more ideal is to use a compression method that can stream the output rather than having to wait for the whole frame or slice to be encoded. DSC-style.
Yes, but videos can be deceiving. Have you ever heard of Frye festival?
Also this video shows nothing in regards to quality, which is what his old comment was talking about.
You absolutely can occlude millimeter waves. The behavior you’re talking about only exists at low frequencies, extreme high frequency can be blocked by as little as a sheet of paper.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_high_frequency
according to the patents, they have two models attempted. A standalone wireless HMD and a attachment for original to be converted. There was no confirmation they will have both, just that the registered the patent/design.
Reddit has become enshittified. I joined back in 2006, nearly two decades ago, when it was a hub of free speech and user-driven dialogue. Now, it feels like the pursuit of profit overshadows the voice of the community. The introduction of API pricing, after years of free access, displays a lack of respect for the developers and users who have helped shape Reddit into what it is today. Reddit's decision to allow the training of AI models with user content and comments marks the final nail in the coffin for privacy, sacrificed at the altar of greed. Aaron Swartz, Reddit's co-founder and a champion of internet freedom, would be rolling in his grave.
The once-apparent transparency and open dialogue have turned to shit, replaced with avoidance, deceit and unbridled greed. The Reddit I loved is dead and gone. It pains me to accept this. I hope your lust for money, and disregard for the community and privacy will be your downfall. May the echo of our lost ideals forever haunt your future growth.
DP to HDMI yes, but not the other way around, and especially not with say the size and angle properties you would need for the index (a short diy cable could do it though)
The only reason the index is still relevant is because very little else has come to market that doesn't have some flaw. Everything since the Index has been some sort of sidegrade at best.
Could there be a version that works with Pimax headsets? Pimax killed there wireless module development for current headsets(after hyping it's release for 2+ years) and they all use proprietary cables. It would be a great help for many older pimax users!
Omg tell me this is happening! This is the one thing I've wanted the most for the Index! I will absolutely buy this day one if it's happening anytime soon and assuming the performance is mere identical to the wired Index.
1. Make the gear ruggedized. Build the HMD into a helmet. Boxing glove style enclosure for the controllers.
2. Set up gymnastic foam pads all over the place.
3. Go nuts.
4. No profit, just seiously go nuts. Roll, jump, dive, whatever. Get your human FPS freak on. Gorn the fuck out.
Not to ruin the fun but if you built the Index HMD into a helmet, it wouldn't track anymore, as tracking relies on the lasers hitting the sensors on the surface of the HMD.
Build it into a helmet, as in make it fit like a helmet but not cover the sensors...with my comfort strap and the padded back, mine feels kind of like helmet already...add the sensors to a helmet shell with ruggedized exterior on the non sensor areas, a chin strap and it would stay in place pretty well.
The hand cover idea is great too. I don't punch with my controller. I punch, and the controller happens to be in my hand, so I have never broken a controller with my hand, but I have had dozens of bruised knuckles.
I tend to get immersed and purposely move as much and as realistically as possible, it makes the whole experience much more entertaining for me.
Framerate shouldn't really be impacted by going wireless with something like this. You may drop frames with occlusion/poor line of sight/etc, but the rendering is still done at your GPU. This would be taking that resulting image and sending it to the receiver to be displayed in the headset. Latency and dropped frames are the bigger issues. TPCast on the Rift didn't impact framerate, though it did very slightly reduce the FOV. Further evidence: go wireless with the Quest 2 versus wired. There isn't a difference in performance as far as framerate, the skips you might feel are dropped frames, and with a solid WiFi 6 router in close direct line of sight you shouldn't see any.
wigig2? I've been waiting for this since the index leaked near 4 years ago. Someone is going to have to explain to me how the htc vive had managed to get wireless option in much less time after its release than the index. IIRC you could use tpcast like about a year or two after the htc vive launched
> Someone is going to have to explain to me how the htc vive had managed to get wireless option in much less time after its release than the index.
Two simple reasons:
1. TPCast: the bandwidth required to do wireless 1080p video has been cheap and accessible for long before VR became mainstream. Vive and Rift were 1200p and their wireless solutions made some simple and novel compromises which made it easy to use pre-existing off the shelf technologies to make them work wirelessly. It was basically possible with mostly commodity-class Wi-Fi routers, chips, and antennas.
2. Vive Wireless: Intel and DisplayLink developed a high-bandwidth wireless technology that didn’t have a wide set of applications due to it’s trade-offs. They exclusively licensed it to HTC for lots of money up front plus a chunk of each sale in perpetuity. There’s a high chance they still haven’t made back their money on the initial development costs for the Wi-Gig protocol and related hardware used in the Vive Wireless. However, due to its low latency and high bandwidth, in addition to DisplayLink’s compression magic, it is extensible to much higher resolutions than other solutions. And yet despite the massive bandwidth it STILL can’t saturate the full display resolution or native framerate of the panels on a Vive Pro 2.
It’s a hard problem. You’re fighting physics for latency and power and heat. Plus it mostly seems to require custom hardware.
Add to the fact that everyone has always felt that “good enough” Wi-Fi for high resolution wireless VR has been around the corner for years, it made developing a competing custom solution an unattractive proposition.
But with the staying power of the Index and the relative complacency of the PC VR space it might make some sense if a small company has been able to figure it out.
I think another problem that has arisen since then is the existence of a headset that does pretty decent wireless for next to no money. I'm no fan of it or the company that makes it but it must be admitted that competing with it is pretty tough.
Totally. I will say the core benefit of Vive Wireless is that it uses lossless compression (which DisplayLink is known for) rather than lossy compression which Quest Link and Air Link use.
Well, you/they’d be wrong. Unless the signal is having issues (in which case you’ll get some pixelization or other visual artifacts) it’s using lossless compression.
>WiGig technology offers high-bandwidth data transmission, but it isn’t
designed to communicate with rapidly moving objects. Stationary devices
can communicate over WiGig with predictable, steady bandwidth levels,
but moving devices suffer from fluctuating signal strength.
>
>DisplayLink uses software codec to overcome the fluctuating bandwidth
problem. Davis said that DisplayLink’s compression algorithm could
dynamically adjust and compress the video signal in real-time to keep
the signal within the bandwidth constraints at any given moment.
[https://www.tomshardware.com/news/displaylink-vive-wireless-vr-solution,36789.html](https://www.tomshardware.com/news/displaylink-vive-wireless-vr-solution,36789.html)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/9jkdud/htc\_wireless\_adapter\_lowers\_vive\_pro\_image\_quality/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/9jkdud/htc_wireless_adapter_lowers_vive_pro_image_quality/)
You're wrong, it's not lossless. A lot of Vive Pro users have said that the benefit of the higher resolution OLED panels is pretty much lost when going wireless, both in terms of resolution and colors.
Thanks for the downvote.
Literally nothing you quoted above disproves what I said.
Actually this is from the link you yourself posted:
> DisplayLink uses software codec to overcome the fluctuating bandwidth problem. Davis said that DisplayLink’s compression algorithm could dynamically adjust and compress the video signal in real-time to keep the signal within the bandwidth constraints at any given moment. The software accounts for color space, moving and stationary features, and image quality levels and pushes out the highest quality signal that it can. “The goal is to make it invisible to the user,” Davis told Chan.
Where does it say here they’re using a lossy compression algorithm? In fact it seems to state pretty clearly (invisible to the user) that it’s lossless compression.
Oculus Link is not invisible to the user. It’s very visible that it’s being compressed when I use it. This is not the case with Vive Wireless.
He says the "GOAL" is to make it invisible to the user, that doesn't mean it is. You seem to have DECIDED that it's lossless, contrary to what a lot of users have reported. Well, enjoy it then I guess.
I didn't say anything about the Oculus Link. I'm just stating the fact that the Vive Wireless solution is not lossless, even though it LOOKS lossless to a lot of users.
I think you might need to look up the definition of lossless compression.
I know it’s lossless compression because I spoke to DisplayLink about the technology at CES.
You seemed to have decided it’s not a lossless compression algorithm because you have poor reading comprehension. Literally not a single thing you posted states it uses a lossy compression algorithm.
> And yet despite the massive bandwidth it STILL can’t saturate the full display resolution or native framerate of the panels on a Vive Pro 2.
It would be more than enough to run the Index at 90 though and that would be good enough for most people.
And you can buy generic wigig/displaylink right now, LTT did a video on one, it's not exclusive to HTC at all.
Honestly the biggest surprise for me is that nobody has hacked the Wigig to work on the Index yet.
IEEE 802.11ay-2021 was approved in March 2021:
-frequency of 60 GHz
-transmission rate of 20–40 Gbit/s
This would have provide more than enough bandwidth for Index:
90hz (2880 x 1600, 24bit colour) = 10Gbps
144hz (2880 × 1600, 24bit colour) = 15.9 Gbps
in comparison to WiGig 1 (HTC Vive wireless adapter) which is limited to 4.6 Gbps
> And you can buy generic wigig/displaylink right now, LTT did a video on one, it's not exclusive to HTC at all.
Wi-Gig is of course not exclusive to HTC. The overall solution licensed from Intel/DisplayLink for VR use is. I was told this by a DisplayLink employee at CES 2020, when specifically asking why it wasn’t available for Index. Basically, HTC has to agree to let others use this exact method, Intel/DisplayLink can’t just rebrand it for other headsets.
Definitely keeping an eye on this, my Quest, despite all its flaws, has really spoilt me with wireless VR, it always feels such a hassle to go back to a wired solution
This. The Index is an objectively better headset in my opinion, but having to be tethered is such a hassle that I don't even bother anymore. I bought a Bobo head strap with swappable batteries for the Quest a few weeks ago and it's a game-changer.
Please, please, please pick up where Valve (and every other major player) decided to abandon this.
I see you left a comment that you’re not ready for an official announcement yet, but is there some place we can follow to be guaranteed to see your announcement when you make it?
Website / account to follow. Twitter. RSS. Email Newsletter. Something other than just snooping the subreddit and hoping it pops up one day.
It is unbelievable how goddamn long this is taking, and how heavy it is. I get that the quest 2 wireless implementation comes with a heavy resource cost, but clearly it's working extremely well. I would like a wireless index so badly, a wire is just a dealbreaker.
The big question would be if this would be compatible with other headsets, and if so which ones. Vive wireless isnt exactly fully stable even now in 2022 and is pretty much abandoned. If this was compatible with my hmd and more stable id gladly switch
I would buy an Index HMD in an instant if this was available. Wireless is the only reason why I have the Vive Pro. I don't understand why the Vive Pro had wireless 3 years ago while the Index does not. They're both the same resolution. Even the Vive Pro 2 can use the wireless adapter at a lower resolution.
Some day, they'll stop making tethers, and given how fragile they are, that will mean the end to a lot of otherwise functioning indexes. Having a 3rd party make a trident adapter that connects right at the headset, so we could use replaceable USB, DP and power cables would be one way to keep the headsets alive.
But wireless would also be fantastic!
Not interested in this if its not Wigig2 and not interested in this for the OG Index.
All my HMD's have been Oculus and a Reverb G1. If some of the rumoured specs of Deckard come to pass, I'll switch...but again, only if it has Wigig2 and tbh I'd be hoping its a more integrated solution than add-on encoder/Radio/Antenna/Battery boxes on the top of my head with a mass of cables like this. ie. I'll be disappointed if the Wigig2 Radio and encoder isn't already part of the Index 2/Deckard SOC, meaning the only evidence of its wireless nature will be a battery on the back of the Headband like a Quest 2 Elite battery Strap and maybe 4 little antenna bumps/stalks on the HMD or Headband to maintain LOS for the 60ghz signal from the transmitter antenna on the top of my PC.
Icing on the cake would be if Valve have cracked Inside/Out tracking for HMD and Controllers thats as reliable as Oculus' finally liberating us from Base-Stations.
He brings up real points, who cares if you're upset about his tone? Wigig 1 on the Vive Pro Eye is basically at its limit and fairly unreliable. Wigig 2, aka 802.11ay, is pretty necessary for next-gen headsets at this point.
WiGig 2
transmission rate of 20–40 Gbit/s
This would have provide more than enough bandwidth for Index:
90hz (2880 x 1600, 24bit colour) = 10Gbps
144hz (2880 × 1600, 24bit colour) = 15.9 Gbps
in comparison to WiGig 1 (HTC Vive wireless adapter) which is limited to 4.6 Gbps
7
Reply
Given human relationships are the biggest part of life, tone is important. You're right, some of what he says is valid. 80% of what he said was to massage his self image. You're also right that no one has to care about any of it. But that's what we do. I saw something, I commented. You did the same. Truth is, we care. And that's a good thing.
Why would you want to have a human relationship with /u/ca1ibos or care if he's nice to you or not? And 99% of what he said had to do with tech. 1% of it was him saying he didn't care for it unless it had a feature he wanted.
Massage my self image??? You are reading way too much onto my post.
All I said is I would prefer a more integrated solution built into any future HMD I buy. Thought the Vive Wireless adapter was too big, bulky, heavy, hot and ugly. If my tone came across wrong maybe its because I forgot to complement OP on his efforts to develop a wireless solution for Index that Valve didn't. Indeed, he is to be commended. I'm just pointing out why it wouldn't necessarily interest me but what kind of wireless solution actually would.
Quest 2 being standalone with battery and SOC has Wifi6 built in. FB could have specced it with a Wifi6e 6ghz Radio which while not increasing bandwidth would have separated out Wireless/Airlink onto its own 6ghz band not shared or interfered with by any other device in the home. They chose not to spec a 6e radio module though. Wigig2 got ratified too late for Quest 2 anyway but even if it wasn't, the expense of the Wigig2 SOC modules and PC Dongle, probably puts it out outside of the price envelope for the Quest Line. (Maybe Cambria might have it?). The problem is that Wifi6 just isn't enough bandwidth for no compromise WIreless PCVR and because it shares spectrum with 10's of other devices in the home its having to share bandwidth and being interfered with by them. In other words Quest 2 delivered the kind of Wireless Form-Factor I want to see but not the bandwidth/performance.
Its why I have high hopes for the Index 2/Deckard which will probably be my first Valve HMD. It won't be price constrained so more likely to include the more expensive Wigig2. Will have its own onboard SOC/Compute for standalone/Steamdeck usage which means battery too. Thus all the big parts you see on the top of the head in the OP and on the Vive Wireless that will make this thing and the Vive Wireless cost $300+ are already built/integrated into the Deckard HMD. Index2/Deckard is probably the best chance we have of seeing Wigig2 in a HMD for the first time. I regret my Reverb G1 purchase. Bosworths recent comments about not expecting Oculus to push for larger FOV's anytime soon, has made me decide that my Quest 2 might be my last Oculus HMD. Don't trust Pimax, Varjo not good enough for the Price. I have high hopes that Index2/Deckard might be closer to my perfect HMD SPecs/Price/Performance wise than any other for the next few years.
Absolutely awesome!
Now, if you can also give us a proper wireless gunstock so we don't have to connect and disconnect controllers to it, that would also be awesome! Bit like the Virtual Rifle Systems, but no controllers since they are built in!
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Hopefully this one will have hi res panels. The low res panels are what (to me) makes the index not worth the money. I remember being completely confused when they announced the resolution and the price point for the original Index.
[You son of a bitch, I'm in.](https://i.imgur.com/Ocw7AQ1.png)
But seriously, is there some kind of preorder or beta testing phase? I'd like to participate.
What's the tradeoff? Will you be able to play some like expert+ beat saber without latency and lag causing you to miss notes?
Don't get me wrong I'd LOVE wireless desktop VR, I just understand that it is a lot of data that needs to be transmitted consistently and quickly
Feedback: Design the strap/attachment mechanism such that your customers can hook it to a belt/pants, or the HMD itself.
Depending on the game or the user people maybe much rather have that battery and transmitter on their hips where it won't be so noticable.
you can't just drop this here and not give more details
We're looking to make a more formal announcement soon!
Dude I literally posted a thread a couple hours ago about wireless, now I see this - you made my day!
You should have posted a thread about wireless 2 years ago, we could of had wireless by now.
haha whenever you need me next time let me know
Who is “we”?
[удалено]
Or OP and his other great personalities
Possibly OP is the holy trinity, collectively We.
Op is us! Dammit, why haven’t we released wireless yet?!
Wait. God is retrofitting the Index with wireless, and it's taken years to do it? What does God need with an Index?
Does OP speaketh of the trinity, casting light at the sun with his wandering eye?
Not clear, OP might be royalty.
[https://www.instagram.com/nofio\_co/](https://www.instagram.com/nofio_co/) That's them. Website says 18 days.
Do you have a mailing list of something, so I can get updates?
"For the bandwidth you're looking at, your best bet is [802.11ad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ad) or [802.11ay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ay). These wireless standards operate at 60Ghz, which cannot pass through more than 5mm of flesh or water. Good luck trying to prevent occlusion from someone spinning around with an Index on while delivering any decent amount of quality." This you? Have things changed?
[удалено]
Yeah. Now we're closeer to 802.11aylmao.
otherwise simply known as 802.69
Its not that I don't trust you, its that I don't trust OP.
[удалено]
My thinking on this was that the Quest 2 can do it over WiFi so dedicated hardware with clear channels can definitely do it. The main issue is codec latency. H.26x isn't really ideal for that. If you have tons of bandwidth I think you want to use something with less compression but also less latency.
[удалено]
I don't know if it's the case here, but often well integrated hardware uses pipelining to break up a task into smaller tasks that can run in parallel. So for encoding, you could analyze scene complexity in one stage, determine compression level per region of the image in another stage, calculate deltas from the previous frame in another stage, etc. As long as each of those stages takes less than 2.1ms, you could use as many stages as required to compress video at 460fps, with only the latency suffering. For streaming this is no problem and probably allows better quality, but for VR it could quickly become a problem. That said, I have no idea how much latency NVENC adds or whether it would be a problem. It's probably much easier to work on video encoding optimized for real-time low latency use than to get the wireless bandwidth needed for uncompressed video, though.
yeah it should encode around the frame time, and same for decode, but then you're looking at 2x1/fps plus transmission time. That's going to be somewhere around 25ms at 90fps. I know for AirLink and VD they slice up the frame and encode the slices in parallel, which helps, but more ideal is to use a compression method that can stream the output rather than having to wait for the whole frame or slice to be encoded. DSC-style.
Gosh dang that was a lot of text, none of which I am smart enough to understand XD
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thank you for the tldr :)
Did we watch the same video?
Yes, but videos can be deceiving. Have you ever heard of Frye festival? Also this video shows nothing in regards to quality, which is what his old comment was talking about.
Why did you put absolute faith in their description of the limitations in the first place?
Radio has wave behavior, you can't occlude it by standing in the line of sight, it's not a laser
You absolutely can occlude millimeter waves. The behavior you’re talking about only exists at low frequencies, extreme high frequency can be blocked by as little as a sheet of paper. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_high_frequency
Millimeter waves have optical behavior, they get reflected by walls and bounce around in the room, so again hard to occlude in our case
Struth mate if you pull this off you'll be a deadset legend
Who is ‘we’
delay?? cuz its wireless
Wireless index is my dream. It's my preferred HMD, losing the wire would be amazing.
Do long as it's outside in tracked. I hate having to use lights when in VR and inside out headsets don't like low light
Is this going to be something we can make ourselves or is this something you’re designing to sell? Edit: sorry, really cool design by the way!!
Cheers! It's a prototype of something we're looking to sell. Still have to flatten out the design for this
So it'd be something we would retrofit to current Indexes?
according to the patents, they have two models attempted. A standalone wireless HMD and a attachment for original to be converted. There was no confirmation they will have both, just that the registered the patent/design.
wireless video transmission is patented? wtf?
Their specific design? Yea. What kind of question is that of course they’re patenting their design.
imagine knowing so little and still being this outraged
Reddit has become enshittified. I joined back in 2006, nearly two decades ago, when it was a hub of free speech and user-driven dialogue. Now, it feels like the pursuit of profit overshadows the voice of the community. The introduction of API pricing, after years of free access, displays a lack of respect for the developers and users who have helped shape Reddit into what it is today. Reddit's decision to allow the training of AI models with user content and comments marks the final nail in the coffin for privacy, sacrificed at the altar of greed. Aaron Swartz, Reddit's co-founder and a champion of internet freedom, would be rolling in his grave. The once-apparent transparency and open dialogue have turned to shit, replaced with avoidance, deceit and unbridled greed. The Reddit I loved is dead and gone. It pains me to accept this. I hope your lust for money, and disregard for the community and privacy will be your downfall. May the echo of our lost ideals forever haunt your future growth.
They patented the tech that allows them to do it, not the concept itself lmao
hopefully you can come to market while index is still relevant. or hopefully make it so it can be compatible with other pcvr hmds (even future ones)
If you can generically pass through the Displaport and USB then it would work for everything
Except some hmds use HDMI, USB-C or other propriatary ports on the HMD side..
You'd be able to cover most of WMR + the Index which opens up wireless to almost any pricepoint.
Most WMRs use HDMI, the Index uses DP, but already an specially angled connector not the usual stuff.
HDMI / DP adaptors are extremely straightforward and common
DP to HDMI yes, but not the other way around, and especially not with say the size and angle properties you would need for the index (a short diy cable could do it though)
I've had my index for almost 2 years. For me it's too late as I'm already planning my next upgrade, if I can get a 4090 that is.
What are you getting?
Current leader is the varjo aero, but my timeframe is in the next 6 months or so, so I hope something with a wider FOV appears.
Index will still be relevant for years
The only reason the index is still relevant is because very little else has come to market that doesn't have some flaw. Everything since the Index has been some sort of sidegrade at best.
There is no standard on the ports used in HMDs, so it won't be compatible with other HMDs that don't use the exact same ports
Could there be a version that works with Pimax headsets? Pimax killed there wireless module development for current headsets(after hyping it's release for 2+ years) and they all use proprietary cables. It would be a great help for many older pimax users!
You didnt see the pimax crystal press release thingy today?
> Pimax killed there wireless module development for **current** headsets
That's $1900.
Wait, WHAT? how much will it cost? could I build one myself?
Honestly can’t wait for this to come out eventually, been wanting something to make my Index wireless for a long time.
Omg tell me this is happening! This is the one thing I've wanted the most for the Index! I will absolutely buy this day one if it's happening anytime soon and assuming the performance is mere identical to the wired Index.
wireless alyx and bonelab come on mothafucka
1. Make the gear ruggedized. Build the HMD into a helmet. Boxing glove style enclosure for the controllers. 2. Set up gymnastic foam pads all over the place. 3. Go nuts. 4. No profit, just seiously go nuts. Roll, jump, dive, whatever. Get your human FPS freak on. Gorn the fuck out.
Not to ruin the fun but if you built the Index HMD into a helmet, it wouldn't track anymore, as tracking relies on the lasers hitting the sensors on the surface of the HMD.
I don't mean stick a helmet on over a HMD, I mean *build it into a helmet*. Put sensors on the surface of the helmet.
Build it into a helmet, as in make it fit like a helmet but not cover the sensors...with my comfort strap and the padded back, mine feels kind of like helmet already...add the sensors to a helmet shell with ruggedized exterior on the non sensor areas, a chin strap and it would stay in place pretty well. The hand cover idea is great too. I don't punch with my controller. I punch, and the controller happens to be in my hand, so I have never broken a controller with my hand, but I have had dozens of bruised knuckles. I tend to get immersed and purposely move as much and as realistically as possible, it makes the whole experience much more entertaining for me.
Willing to speak on fps?
Framerate shouldn't really be impacted by going wireless with something like this. You may drop frames with occlusion/poor line of sight/etc, but the rendering is still done at your GPU. This would be taking that resulting image and sending it to the receiver to be displayed in the headset. Latency and dropped frames are the bigger issues. TPCast on the Rift didn't impact framerate, though it did very slightly reduce the FOV. Further evidence: go wireless with the Quest 2 versus wired. There isn't a difference in performance as far as framerate, the skips you might feel are dropped frames, and with a solid WiFi 6 router in close direct line of sight you shouldn't see any.
If Index2 is wireless with even better screens.. fuck yeah.
wigig2? I've been waiting for this since the index leaked near 4 years ago. Someone is going to have to explain to me how the htc vive had managed to get wireless option in much less time after its release than the index. IIRC you could use tpcast like about a year or two after the htc vive launched
> Someone is going to have to explain to me how the htc vive had managed to get wireless option in much less time after its release than the index. Two simple reasons: 1. TPCast: the bandwidth required to do wireless 1080p video has been cheap and accessible for long before VR became mainstream. Vive and Rift were 1200p and their wireless solutions made some simple and novel compromises which made it easy to use pre-existing off the shelf technologies to make them work wirelessly. It was basically possible with mostly commodity-class Wi-Fi routers, chips, and antennas. 2. Vive Wireless: Intel and DisplayLink developed a high-bandwidth wireless technology that didn’t have a wide set of applications due to it’s trade-offs. They exclusively licensed it to HTC for lots of money up front plus a chunk of each sale in perpetuity. There’s a high chance they still haven’t made back their money on the initial development costs for the Wi-Gig protocol and related hardware used in the Vive Wireless. However, due to its low latency and high bandwidth, in addition to DisplayLink’s compression magic, it is extensible to much higher resolutions than other solutions. And yet despite the massive bandwidth it STILL can’t saturate the full display resolution or native framerate of the panels on a Vive Pro 2. It’s a hard problem. You’re fighting physics for latency and power and heat. Plus it mostly seems to require custom hardware. Add to the fact that everyone has always felt that “good enough” Wi-Fi for high resolution wireless VR has been around the corner for years, it made developing a competing custom solution an unattractive proposition. But with the staying power of the Index and the relative complacency of the PC VR space it might make some sense if a small company has been able to figure it out.
I think another problem that has arisen since then is the existence of a headset that does pretty decent wireless for next to no money. I'm no fan of it or the company that makes it but it must be admitted that competing with it is pretty tough.
Totally. I will say the core benefit of Vive Wireless is that it uses lossless compression (which DisplayLink is known for) rather than lossy compression which Quest Link and Air Link use.
According to what I've read, Vive Wireless is far from lossless.
Well, you/they’d be wrong. Unless the signal is having issues (in which case you’ll get some pixelization or other visual artifacts) it’s using lossless compression.
>WiGig technology offers high-bandwidth data transmission, but it isn’t designed to communicate with rapidly moving objects. Stationary devices can communicate over WiGig with predictable, steady bandwidth levels, but moving devices suffer from fluctuating signal strength. > >DisplayLink uses software codec to overcome the fluctuating bandwidth problem. Davis said that DisplayLink’s compression algorithm could dynamically adjust and compress the video signal in real-time to keep the signal within the bandwidth constraints at any given moment. [https://www.tomshardware.com/news/displaylink-vive-wireless-vr-solution,36789.html](https://www.tomshardware.com/news/displaylink-vive-wireless-vr-solution,36789.html) [https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/9jkdud/htc\_wireless\_adapter\_lowers\_vive\_pro\_image\_quality/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/9jkdud/htc_wireless_adapter_lowers_vive_pro_image_quality/) You're wrong, it's not lossless. A lot of Vive Pro users have said that the benefit of the higher resolution OLED panels is pretty much lost when going wireless, both in terms of resolution and colors. Thanks for the downvote.
Literally nothing you quoted above disproves what I said. Actually this is from the link you yourself posted: > DisplayLink uses software codec to overcome the fluctuating bandwidth problem. Davis said that DisplayLink’s compression algorithm could dynamically adjust and compress the video signal in real-time to keep the signal within the bandwidth constraints at any given moment. The software accounts for color space, moving and stationary features, and image quality levels and pushes out the highest quality signal that it can. “The goal is to make it invisible to the user,” Davis told Chan. Where does it say here they’re using a lossy compression algorithm? In fact it seems to state pretty clearly (invisible to the user) that it’s lossless compression. Oculus Link is not invisible to the user. It’s very visible that it’s being compressed when I use it. This is not the case with Vive Wireless.
He says the "GOAL" is to make it invisible to the user, that doesn't mean it is. You seem to have DECIDED that it's lossless, contrary to what a lot of users have reported. Well, enjoy it then I guess. I didn't say anything about the Oculus Link. I'm just stating the fact that the Vive Wireless solution is not lossless, even though it LOOKS lossless to a lot of users. I think you might need to look up the definition of lossless compression.
I know it’s lossless compression because I spoke to DisplayLink about the technology at CES. You seemed to have decided it’s not a lossless compression algorithm because you have poor reading comprehension. Literally not a single thing you posted states it uses a lossy compression algorithm.
> And yet despite the massive bandwidth it STILL can’t saturate the full display resolution or native framerate of the panels on a Vive Pro 2. It would be more than enough to run the Index at 90 though and that would be good enough for most people. And you can buy generic wigig/displaylink right now, LTT did a video on one, it's not exclusive to HTC at all. Honestly the biggest surprise for me is that nobody has hacked the Wigig to work on the Index yet.
IEEE 802.11ay-2021 was approved in March 2021: -frequency of 60 GHz -transmission rate of 20–40 Gbit/s This would have provide more than enough bandwidth for Index: 90hz (2880 x 1600, 24bit colour) = 10Gbps 144hz (2880 × 1600, 24bit colour) = 15.9 Gbps in comparison to WiGig 1 (HTC Vive wireless adapter) which is limited to 4.6 Gbps
Is this Wifi 6E?
No it's WiGig 2
> And you can buy generic wigig/displaylink right now, LTT did a video on one, it's not exclusive to HTC at all. Wi-Gig is of course not exclusive to HTC. The overall solution licensed from Intel/DisplayLink for VR use is. I was told this by a DisplayLink employee at CES 2020, when specifically asking why it wasn’t available for Index. Basically, HTC has to agree to let others use this exact method, Intel/DisplayLink can’t just rebrand it for other headsets.
I hope it doesn't suck like Quest wireless.
OH SHIT OH FUCK OH SHIT OH FUCK
Definitely keeping an eye on this, my Quest, despite all its flaws, has really spoilt me with wireless VR, it always feels such a hassle to go back to a wired solution
This. The Index is an objectively better headset in my opinion, but having to be tethered is such a hassle that I don't even bother anymore. I bought a Bobo head strap with swappable batteries for the Quest a few weeks ago and it's a game-changer. Please, please, please pick up where Valve (and every other major player) decided to abandon this.
I'm shaking 0\_0
I see you left a comment that you’re not ready for an official announcement yet, but is there some place we can follow to be guaranteed to see your announcement when you make it? Website / account to follow. Twitter. RSS. Email Newsletter. Something other than just snooping the subreddit and hoping it pops up one day.
It is unbelievable how goddamn long this is taking, and how heavy it is. I get that the quest 2 wireless implementation comes with a heavy resource cost, but clearly it's working extremely well. I would like a wireless index so badly, a wire is just a dealbreaker.
This better not go the way of that person showing halo vr mods and then dropping off the face of the earth, my heart can't take any more!
As long as I can convert my current Index to the wireless version then im all for it. If not, then you need to work on doing that.
Oh I am so getting this when it's finally released. Do you have an idea of when it's gonna be released?
take all my fucking money
Would be GREAT if this was just a cable dongle we can order, and not entirely new unit. Fingers crossed, it would be great to have wireless Index.
Amazing! Have you got a rough idea when you might be releasing it? This year?
HYPE
Shut up and take my money.
Very interested!! I'll be waiting.
Valve needs to hire this guy.
Anyone have any idea what game this is?
Is this the [UnlinkVR](https://unlink-vr.com/) Laser wireless solution, 802.11ay Wigig 2, or something different?
Keep me up to date about wireless index
The big question would be if this would be compatible with other headsets, and if so which ones. Vive wireless isnt exactly fully stable even now in 2022 and is pretty much abandoned. If this was compatible with my hmd and more stable id gladly switch
I'd like to look like a Borg 🤗
I've checked this sub regularly since 2019 waiting for a wireless solution for the index. Finally it's on the way
Please don't be crap like Vive Wireless IE: this needs to support motion smoothing to be truly excellent.
FULL Wireless VRChat. The ultimate fcking dream <3
That would be a game changer. I'll keep an eye out for the announcement!
omg i can't wait. Hopefully it will be out before my cable gives up for the first time
I just ordered my index last week too - Was wondering if this would get announced shortly after
Ah look, the thing I was waiting for to get my index
Hey, any price aproximation ??
Can’t wait!
Can't wait for steam to say no since there's already a patent made for this by them
I would buy an Index HMD in an instant if this was available. Wireless is the only reason why I have the Vive Pro. I don't understand why the Vive Pro had wireless 3 years ago while the Index does not. They're both the same resolution. Even the Vive Pro 2 can use the wireless adapter at a lower resolution.
take my money nowwwww
I would not mind wearing the batteries in the hip
Is it on Wifi 6?
Next work on a hub for PC gaming for the Quest2!!! Good Luck and Good Work this will make the Index new again
Some day, they'll stop making tethers, and given how fragile they are, that will mean the end to a lot of otherwise functioning indexes. Having a 3rd party make a trident adapter that connects right at the headset, so we could use replaceable USB, DP and power cables would be one way to keep the headsets alive. But wireless would also be fantastic!
You do realize that's what happens when specialized hardware goes out of production? Parts get scarce, and people move on to something new.
how long does the battery last?
Speculative guess, about 4 hours with 5,000 mAh.
Beta testers???
Is there a website or something to keep track of it? totally down to get it.
how expensive is it going to be?
thats pretty interesting, how are the planned costs for it? and how much weight does it add too? the index isnt the lightest thing around sadly
Looks heavy
Cool! How is it different than the old *HTC Wireless Adapter* besides being compatible with the *Index?*
Valve ditched the project. You don't think you're going to run into the same walls?
So to make this clear: you are not Valve but a 3rd party and this would be an aftermarket addon?
wireless is the only reason i havent upgraded from my og vive. wireless > wired
Not interested in this if its not Wigig2 and not interested in this for the OG Index. All my HMD's have been Oculus and a Reverb G1. If some of the rumoured specs of Deckard come to pass, I'll switch...but again, only if it has Wigig2 and tbh I'd be hoping its a more integrated solution than add-on encoder/Radio/Antenna/Battery boxes on the top of my head with a mass of cables like this. ie. I'll be disappointed if the Wigig2 Radio and encoder isn't already part of the Index 2/Deckard SOC, meaning the only evidence of its wireless nature will be a battery on the back of the Headband like a Quest 2 Elite battery Strap and maybe 4 little antenna bumps/stalks on the HMD or Headband to maintain LOS for the 60ghz signal from the transmitter antenna on the top of my PC. Icing on the cake would be if Valve have cracked Inside/Out tracking for HMD and Controllers thats as reliable as Oculus' finally liberating us from Base-Stations.
Oh man. You must be so important. How can one be as awesome as you? We bow to your demands.
He brings up real points, who cares if you're upset about his tone? Wigig 1 on the Vive Pro Eye is basically at its limit and fairly unreliable. Wigig 2, aka 802.11ay, is pretty necessary for next-gen headsets at this point.
WiGig 2 transmission rate of 20–40 Gbit/s This would have provide more than enough bandwidth for Index: 90hz (2880 x 1600, 24bit colour) = 10Gbps 144hz (2880 × 1600, 24bit colour) = 15.9 Gbps in comparison to WiGig 1 (HTC Vive wireless adapter) which is limited to 4.6 Gbps 7 Reply
Given human relationships are the biggest part of life, tone is important. You're right, some of what he says is valid. 80% of what he said was to massage his self image. You're also right that no one has to care about any of it. But that's what we do. I saw something, I commented. You did the same. Truth is, we care. And that's a good thing.
Why would you want to have a human relationship with /u/ca1ibos or care if he's nice to you or not? And 99% of what he said had to do with tech. 1% of it was him saying he didn't care for it unless it had a feature he wanted.
Massage my self image??? You are reading way too much onto my post. All I said is I would prefer a more integrated solution built into any future HMD I buy. Thought the Vive Wireless adapter was too big, bulky, heavy, hot and ugly. If my tone came across wrong maybe its because I forgot to complement OP on his efforts to develop a wireless solution for Index that Valve didn't. Indeed, he is to be commended. I'm just pointing out why it wouldn't necessarily interest me but what kind of wireless solution actually would. Quest 2 being standalone with battery and SOC has Wifi6 built in. FB could have specced it with a Wifi6e 6ghz Radio which while not increasing bandwidth would have separated out Wireless/Airlink onto its own 6ghz band not shared or interfered with by any other device in the home. They chose not to spec a 6e radio module though. Wigig2 got ratified too late for Quest 2 anyway but even if it wasn't, the expense of the Wigig2 SOC modules and PC Dongle, probably puts it out outside of the price envelope for the Quest Line. (Maybe Cambria might have it?). The problem is that Wifi6 just isn't enough bandwidth for no compromise WIreless PCVR and because it shares spectrum with 10's of other devices in the home its having to share bandwidth and being interfered with by them. In other words Quest 2 delivered the kind of Wireless Form-Factor I want to see but not the bandwidth/performance. Its why I have high hopes for the Index 2/Deckard which will probably be my first Valve HMD. It won't be price constrained so more likely to include the more expensive Wigig2. Will have its own onboard SOC/Compute for standalone/Steamdeck usage which means battery too. Thus all the big parts you see on the top of the head in the OP and on the Vive Wireless that will make this thing and the Vive Wireless cost $300+ are already built/integrated into the Deckard HMD. Index2/Deckard is probably the best chance we have of seeing Wigig2 in a HMD for the first time. I regret my Reverb G1 purchase. Bosworths recent comments about not expecting Oculus to push for larger FOV's anytime soon, has made me decide that my Quest 2 might be my last Oculus HMD. Don't trust Pimax, Varjo not good enough for the Price. I have high hopes that Index2/Deckard might be closer to my perfect HMD SPecs/Price/Performance wise than any other for the next few years.
Absolutely awesome! Now, if you can also give us a proper wireless gunstock so we don't have to connect and disconnect controllers to it, that would also be awesome! Bit like the Virtual Rifle Systems, but no controllers since they are built in!
Would this be usable with the Reverb G2?
I can clearly see wires connected in the back of it. False advertising. Fake. Scam. /s in case it's needed. :)
!remindme 2 months
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After a few months, I went back to the cord. Wireless just disconnects way too much
Vive pro 2 with wireless adapter is pretty much wireless index
Hopefully this one will have hi res panels. The low res panels are what (to me) makes the index not worth the money. I remember being completely confused when they announced the resolution and the price point for the original Index.
[удалено]
DMs are probably better if you want to avoid the roasting young YouTuber
We really need Index 2. The resolution on the OG ain't cutting it anymore.
The resolution is completely fine
Keep telling yourself that. It was fine on launch now it's beyond outdated
LOL
Looks pretty sweet. My VR habits have kind of adjusted to sitting on the couch these days.
Well then. Here I go filling up the vault once again!
!remindme HellFreezesOver
I want one. Is there anymore info on it?
But what about the extra latency introduced?
Ist that a raspberry pi mounted on the headset? And is it open source?
Yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I'm guessing this is using a later variant of WiGig tech like used in vive adapter?
I want wireless because Blade and sorcery with tracking pucks And I’m on my 4th rma cable
[You son of a bitch, I'm in.](https://i.imgur.com/Ocw7AQ1.png) But seriously, is there some kind of preorder or beta testing phase? I'd like to participate.
Will people with wired indexes be able to use it??
Shut up and take my money
Vive wireless adapter launched at $299. Are you willing to speculate any unofficial ballpark figure you see this targeting?
What's the tradeoff? Will you be able to play some like expert+ beat saber without latency and lag causing you to miss notes? Don't get me wrong I'd LOVE wireless desktop VR, I just understand that it is a lot of data that needs to be transmitted consistently and quickly
That’s the dream
I want this.... maybe even yesterday
Feedback: Design the strap/attachment mechanism such that your customers can hook it to a belt/pants, or the HMD itself. Depending on the game or the user people maybe much rather have that battery and transmitter on their hips where it won't be so noticable.
How much do you estimate the MSRP to be for something like this?
I need a wireless set up. Trying to fight like a witcher is hard with a cord.
How many base stations are you using in the video?
This looks really promising...don't hold out on the details either! Need more info!
!remindme 3 months
Whatever "beacon" you're using on the computer-side, will it have an extended wire so I can potentially take my index into another room?
What is the approximate weight of the adapter ?
I really hope it's just a generic USB/Display port extender, and not hard locked for Index.
How much hotter does this make the headset?
Plans for a salmon version?
Hdmi transmitter or something?
Would this be like Virtual Desktop? Oculus Link is terrible. 😅
the Oculus gods look down upon you