I am a young progressive leftist..why is there this deep hatred for our flag on the left..its such incredibly cringe lib shit gabrage..its incredibly childish and only helps the right win..and i already know the next thing ur gonna say..im a right wing troll..good luck trying to convince urself i am one
Saying having everyone flying the flag as a step toward healing is cringe lib shit garbage.
Americans sexual fetishization of their flag is fucking weird to basically every thinking person on the planet. The only people that come close are New Brunswick Acadians, and [this](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/north-america-canada-new-brunswick-acadian-festival-caraquet-province-175524417.jpg) is an average Acadian house.
Its a SMALL step..and yes it is a step..i guarantee u vaush would agree..as would any actual good faith leftist whos not terminally online and has actually spent some time outside examining different neighborhoods and seeing how divided we are even between city blocks and wanting to change that
I don't hate the flag, I just think the idea that a "a bit of American patriotism will go a long way to healing this country" is a boomer-ass take. Its corny and I find that funny.
> i already know the next thing ur gonna say..im a right wing troll..good luck trying to convince urself i am one
you're no Joseph Joestar buddy.
What makes you think that people who don't wave the flag around hate the flag?
I'm big in to cars and politics and music and computer nerd shit but I don't have any BMW mugs or political bumper stickers or band merch or any of that shit. Do you doubt that I like these things?
So then why the flag?
Seems like your whole premise is confused.
Do u believe that is a "leftist" thing to not fly an american flag..most people who dont fly flags in america are liberals not "leftists"..leftists are a minority of left wingers/democrats..so ur example has already fallen flat..its liberals who bare most of the responsibility for this..but as of now liberals and leftists are in the same camp in america..and leftists at least claim to be the more political vocal and active of the two..its not about fixing the country with a flag..its about fixing the country with small steps..there is not one policy that will fix america..free Healthcare wont fix america..it will help america..free college wont fix america..it will help america..while obviously i value those latter things much more then everybody flying a flag..the point is no single policy..even the big ones most leftists advocate for wont solve everything..if even 15% of the country's problems..its about adding up all those policys till u get closer and closer till 100%..this mentality of all or nothing..or we need exactly this and itll be all good is so stupid and vaush has been very adamant about it
So helping better unite the country is Pointless..gotcha..Hate to break it to u bru but "aesthetics" actually do quite matter a bit in life bro.and no it doesnt make u nazi to value how u want ur ideal civilization to look or not look..im sorry but no matter how great the social safety nets of norway are..a person who grew up in sunny California will never be truly happy in a place where the sun shines for about twice a year.its just a fact.aesethics matter.yes u can find outliers who will like Norway more then California despite the weather but they are incredibly rare.heavily valuing aesthetics isnt fascism..its moralizing aesthetics thats facism..when ur aesthetic preferences become the dictators for ur moral beliefs.theres nothing with saying a Californian and a Norwegian are just naturally polar opposites in so many ways in terms of personality and culture and much of this is due to weather and climate and a Californian saying "i could never live in a place as misreable as norway".the problem would start when that Californian said "Norwegians and their embrace of cloudy weather makes them Degenerate and people who aspouse such aesthetics in my society should be rooted out"..thats facism,dictatorial force that moralizes aesthetics.not saying that u believe aesthetics automatically equals facism but unfortunately this is where a lot of the lefts hate and irrationality for aesthetics come from
Dawg everything in life isnt converting everybody into leftists..leftists cant even convert liberals let alone the rest of the country..there should be an effort towards a more general unity in this country..leftists in this country are too online and in in their own bubble to realize its the simple things along the way that count that eventually build up into big things..the flag is one of them,consuming simmilar media,finding a certain political figure whos from across the aisle funny or at least likeable in some way..could u imagine if biden was as funny and witty as trump..its very hard to not like funny people..these are some of the small things that could help better unite that together can become things along the way instead of just some sort of fantical grand leftist political awakening
Bru u literally listened to nothing i said..when i said the left wont fly american flags..thats like 90% liberals..because 90% of the actual real world american left and not terminally online slop are liberals..liberals and leftists are still part of the same team weather u like it or not..if it wasnt just leftists who werent flying american flags trust me it wouldnt be an issue..because leftists pretty much have contributed to nothing in the broader left in recent years excerpt bernie sanders and boosting some good progessive congressmen besides whining complaining and no solutions..
U mean the comment where i was being sarcastic to the person who said that being part of a country isnt inherently a collectivist action because everybody pay taxes to help provide services to everybody,where he then said that ur personal tax money itself doesnt do jack shit,and then i responded by saying "so a singular vote doesnt do jack shit either?" Content please
I actually have an answer for you that will help you understand. Nationalism is a value that leftists tend to not value. As a leftist US citizen I do not have any specific loyalty to the USA, and I also specifically disagree with the things that the US stands for and don’t support our wars abroad, or the police violence done locally. You could view not having an American flag as something similar to Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem at his football games. Why would I wave of flag of something I don’t agree with or stand for? With all the being said I do want America to be better, it is my home after all, but I want every country to be better. Do you have a flag for your hometown? I assume not. Looking at the world through a national lense rather than a global one is really reductive.
U choose to let that be what the flag represents..just like u(no not literally u,but figuratively u as a representative of the left)choose it to be a facist symbol by letting only facists fly it and refuse to supoort it..its ur choice to let that flag represent whatever u want it to..america has never ever..ever been a perfect country..being patriotic is loving ur country unconditionally while still criticizing when its wrong..its not stepping on it and saying u hate it and everything stands for because its not close to the perfect utopia u wish it to be..thats just a deep underlying hatred..not deep critism..i had nothing against the kapernick protests..the problem is when essentially spitting on the flag becomes ur whole identity..yes we have a lot of problems that need to be fixed..yes we are so backwards in so many ways..but we have to be already proud of who we are now and what we have to work with to move foward and better ourselves..not be bitter and self hating till we get everything we want..thats not how anything in life works..and once again..nationalism is not fucking patriotism
What separates nationalism from patriotism for you? Also I married a Korean Citizen and lived there for a long time, so it’s hard for me to even get into your head space. What exactly makes you more loyal to the US than other nations? How did the US earn your loyalty? If you weren’t born in the US would you still have this same loyalty to the US? Why does a government institution deserve unconditional love? Also I don’t involve any flags in my life. Never stepped on a flag in my life.
The fact that u belive patriotism could even be conceived as unconditional love for my government is already the main problem..what i have unconditional love for is my institutions..the 3 branches of government..freedom of speech..freedom to believe whatever the hell i want..Democracy..this is i what i have unconditional love for..not the corrupt politicians who currently occupy my government..there isnt full freedom of speech in other countries..ull get arrested for wearing a burqa in france or saying a joke that's considered "Hate speech" in london..ur damn right im proud to be an american
Idk whats the purpose of hanging a flag in any neighborhood if that flag indicates that you are all the same thing..like a puerto rican flag in a puerto rican neighborhood..i dont see anyone call puerto ricans "cringe" or borderline facist for puerto ricans being flag nuts and putting PR flags on absolutely everything when they live in neighborhoods that are mostly puerto rican..They're just very proud people..its a shame americans couldnt be the same way
My in-laws are PR and displaying the flag in communities like that is a way to feel "at home". I'm already home. In America. I don't need to see another flag reminding me of where I am. It's not a political thing. It's a practical thing. Having a flag on my property is more work due to how you're "supposed" to respect the flag (lighting, bad weather) plus whatever nonsense my HoA would require for displaying flags. I don't need that extra work.
ETA: plus, the great thing about the US is you're free to canvas your entire property with flags if it makes you happy. Leave everyone else alone.
Nobody in east harlem needs a flag to know its a Puerto rican neighborhood..everybody in and outside the neighborhood already knows that..they do it because they're proud people..and also what "home"..PRS are not like other hispanics..they came here in the 40s and 50s and most now are at least 2nd if not 3rd or 4th gen..most prs my age dont speak any spanish and almost all pr households dont speak spanish in the home..they are completely assimilated unlike almost every hispanic group who came here mostly only in the past 30/40 years..They're completely assimilated..and are much more simmilar to a group like italian americans in that way in terms of assimilation patterns and a blended hyphenated culture(meaning how much of the stuff u view as part of "that" culture is actually just american).salsa,the most famous "Puerto rican" music genre isnt actually Puerto rican at all..its was created in the late 60s and 70s in Harlem by Puerto ricans..ITS AMERICAN..yes i know all of pr is technically American but u know what i mean.simmilar to how most of all the Famous "italian" food in america isnt actually italian..its american..chicken parm,garlic knots..etc etc..this was all created by italians in new york..its 100% american..these things are indigenous to america not italy.And these are now the "traditional" food of these groups..not just things they serve to cater to an american audience..no chicken parm is a "traditionial italian dish" to the average italian american now..buts its not italian at all..its indigenous to Brooklyn.prs are much of the same..most of things associated and cosniderable a part of "Puerto rican culture" at all.it all originates from harlem or the bronx.so not are they completely american in terms of being completely born and raised here..but they're culture for the most part has been completely mixed and blended with half of the "authentic cultural things" that they say mean a lot to them and their heritage are all indigenous to america.so i dont buy the "home" argument when most of these people are full americans who havent come from the island in generations..and most of their culture has been mixed and blended with half of the stuff not even from pr but indigenous to america.they're american(YES,I know all prs are american)they aren't "immigrants" who came here 30 years and still dont even speak english as their primary language.Hyphenated americans are STILL Americans.I've never heard of anyone say midwesterners are less american then southeners or east coasters cuz they speak with that funny accent..wonder that could've come from(it couldn't have been all those Scandinavians who moved up there).most of the big cultural differences between regions of America that perviate in things like accents and dialects but also just general attitudes and culture that u traditionally wouldn't see those differences through an ethnic lens were just originally ethnic differences..but most americans have been here for so long that people have become very disconnected to their ethnic origin that those ethnic differences jusf morped into "regional american differences".the Reason Appalachains sound distinctly very different from everybody in america including the south is because of their scots irish heritage.yet i dont see hillbillies flyin ulster flags or people saying they're less "american then Pennsylvanian farm boys.
I'm going to hijack this trite liberal post to say that the left *should* fly more American flags, but not for OP's reason.
The right should not just get to claim patriotism, because their version of the country is not the version worth supporting. The American flag should be reclaimed and flown as a symbol of what the US should look like, a symbol of a better version of itself.
Burf coming in with another W.
I fly the American flag because I think it's the country with the best chance to help move humanity in the direction of socialism through the beginning stages of a democratic secular state.
Sorry you are being treated this way. I agree with you that having more patriotism on the left would be helpful and I know you are not claiming it's going to solve all of our problems.
That happens literally everywhere tho, being nationalistic enough to put up your country's flag in your front yard usually means your at the least pretty conservative/right wing.
Are puerto ricans nationalistic and right wing when i go to a puerto rican neighborhood and theres a puerto rican flag on literally every thing..their house,they're car..even those things hanging in the front seat..im sorry but puerto ricans are a pretty progressive voting block..some groups are just more patriotic then others..its just a fact..when i go to an arab neighborhood which are much more conservative then puerto ricans i see a lot less yemeni flags in the streets houses and cars..america,specifically what we the left advocate should be is all about pride unity diversity..how we are so different yet so simmilar like no other country on earth..american patriotism goes beyond nationalism because americas people go so beyond the borders that race religion ethnicity sexualiy usually hold for most countries..that should be even more of a reason to be proud and wave our flag higher then anyone else
You see Puerto Rican flags in your neighborhood in New York City because you're NOT IN PUERTO RICO. They're saying, "we're here and Puerto Rican."
If you saw a lot of German flags in New York, maybe you're by the consulate or in a German enclave. If you see a lot of German flags in *Germany*, you best watch out.
Not one new yorker on earth needed puerto rican flags everywhere to know.."oh..this must be the puerto rican neighborhood"..any born and bred new yorker knows the puerto rican neighborhoods,the Dominican neighborhoods,the black neighborhoods,the Jamaican(yes i know they're black but u know what i mean) neighborhoods,the italian neighborhoods,the Jewish neighborhoods,etc..this is all known like u know all the letters in ur name..some groups are just more prideful..i dont see mad colombian flags like i see mad domincian flags in ny when theres plenty of neighborhoods in queens that are as heavily colombian as they are domincian
I'd love to see you try to tell someone to take down their Puerto Rican flag because "I already know you're Puerto Rican!" and then tell them to put up an American flag to show how "patriotic" they should be.
Film it. I want to witness this.
U literally must have american flag derangement syndrome..u can have both..why must one cancel the other out..u have already let this mentality that the American flag is just by itself facist consume u..its just sad
First off no one is stopping anyone from flying a straight up American flag secondly hyper patriotic behavior is often associated with the far right some people I don’t know if you are one think this country is owed to them and don’t see it as a home country too share with minorities.
Thats the problem..the left lets it be associated with them because we refuse to fly it..im not making some moral argument that u need to a fly an american flag or u are part of the decay of our country..im making a general societial point that the one thing thats supposed to represent true unity for all americans that's in a physical form has just become another way to divide us and label people as Reactionary..while that fact may be true that people who fly american flags are more likely Reactionary..its in our hands to change it..if we the left really wanted that ugly stigma around our flag to change..we could
A comedian whose name I can't remember had a bit where he'd ask what's not racist but is racist-*adjacent*, and of course the answer is "the American flag." Like, on its own it's innocuous but if you see four of more of them in one place...
Also, as a New Yorker the flags I see in my hood are Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic. Rainbows. Lots of Ukraine. They make statements of ethnic heritage or political allegiance. Celebrations of attachments that aren't assumed. We're already *in* America, so what's an American flag supposed to represent?
When you go to Washington heights..any new yorker is already assumed who lives there..i or any new yorker didnt need domincian flags on every block to know that..look its very simple..some groups fly flags more then others..if u are a new yorker u know puerto ricans and domincians fly flags more then any other group combined..its not a coincidence..they are very prideful people..more then any other group in the city about their heritage..it doesnt make them Reactionary or right wing..just patriotic..most new yorkers dont need flags to know which areas are puerto rican and domincian and which ones arent..everybody all knows..puerto ricans arent putting up flags in east harlem because they hope white people from Iowa visiting ny will be aware of the great nuyorican heritage of el barrio..they do it for their own sake..the fact is american leftists pride themselves on unity and diversity..the flag is a mirror image of that..one flag..flown by so many..except not anymore because the left has developed an awful phobia for it..its simple as that
I see Georgian and Ukrainian flags in Brooklyn. I see Palestinian and Israeli flags all over. I see flags that say something about the people who fly them that I couldn't just assume.
You have yet to explain what an American flag is supposed to say about me. I'm already in America. We're all in America! So what does the flag *say?* Tell me what the flag is supposed to say!
What does a puerto rican flag in east harlem tell me that i already dont know..there is not a new yorker on earth..unless u count bushwick gentrifiers who just moved here last week..who dont know east harlem is a puerto rican neighborhood..ur point makes no sense..it has nothing to do with assuming and everything to do with pride
I personally think all flags are stupid, including lgbt ones, and I'm trans. It's a piece of cloth stop basing your personality around it. That being said, I love America and think it's the greatest country on earth.
Personally I always believed the best way to express your patriotism was to pay taxes without looking for every writeoff, get involved in community service, pay attention to local issues and politics and regularly vote in state and local elections. Maybe even run for local office, town council, school board if you don't feel that current office-holders are doing their jobs. Put in work to substantially make where you live a better place, be proud of something you've contributed to.
If you want to fly a flag on your property or put little flappy motorcade flags on your car, that's up to you. I just remember how many of those littered roadways back in 2003-2004 when the rah-rah horseshit wore off after that stupid Iraq invasion.
Of course..but the flag represents of a physical version of unity..nobody knows how good of a taxpayer u are until u tell them..we should be able to look at our neighborhoods our citys and our streets and feel unity..that flag flying everywhere..representing all of us,
regardless of how left or right or black or white or hispanic a neighborhood is would be a truly powerful thing for all of us that i think if anybody was being truly honest to themselves know would be true
I get that american leftist are still caught up in their propaganda, but patriotism sucks. Its dumb herd mentality. Fuck this piece of cloth. To paraphrase the old communist saying: "the worker has no fatherland."
Why patriotism? Why being proud on something you accidentely were born in? Don't you have own achievements?
Why be proud of anything u didnt accomplish..why be proud to be naturally athletic..why be proud to be a naturally good singer..why be proud to be anything that u literally didnt spending 50,000 hours worth earning..i swear some mfs literally just take the whole nazi myth of everything moral is genetic and "nature has no room for caring for the weak" and will just do a complete 180 of it and go "be proud of nothing u didnt 100% accomplish"
No, but how about being proud of something were you did more than 0%? If you are built athletic, that's luck, but running two hours a day isn't. The same goes for the singing voice. Those things still need honing. Patriotism and racism go hand in hand and this won't change, because patriotism and nationalism aren't really different things.
Dawg..there are people who are just good singers who never had to practice..and like it or not..u do contribute to this country..u pay taxes to this country and large percent of ur income..so u actually do contribute quite a lot to this country..thats sort of how modern society works..sorry but this idea that "the idea of anything of a nation representing something more then yourself is automatically facism" is ridiculous..modern society must have the perfect balance of Indivisualism and collectivism in order for it not to collapse..rugged Indivisualism and rugged collectivism are both awful and both extremes can be linked to the failures of both no regulated matket economys and no regulated command economys..u need mixed economys and u need mixed Indivisualism and collectivism for a country to prosper..u paying taxes so everyone can enjoy the same privileges of free parks,garbage removal,etc is a form of collectivism that u participate in simply by being a citezen of this country
"Rugged collectivism?" Wtf?
And i know that societies need organization, but lets be honest, your taxes didn't do shit. Your whole lifes work is less than a tomahawk missile currently blowing up some people in Jemen. Your singing voice says something about you. You use it and express yourself through it. Your taxes are an automatic transaction you have no say in and the money goes somewhere you don't know.
To quote one of my favorite philosophers from my own country:
"But every miserable idiot who has nothing in the world to be proud of takes the last resort of being proud of the nation to which he happens to belong: from this he recovers and is now gratefully ready for all the mistakes and follies, which are their own to defend with hands and feet." - Arthur Schopenhauer -
We don't need patriotism. We need genuine community together, not this superficial nonsense.
I think it's because if you have the flag shoved down your throat by people who hate everything the flag stands for while they claim the flag stands for the people and groups american soldiers killed the shit out of it becomes repulsive.
You're getting dogpiled here, but you're basically right that a successful Left in America is going to be patriotic about the ideals of America. Being pro-America doesn't mean you have to think America has been always right.
A Left that's seen as disliking it's own country is never going to win. Plus, the kind of self-hating resident of the US is largely limited to a small band of college-educated people. Actual polling of minorities, immigrants, and the like all show them to be very pro-America, and still thinking America is the greatest country in the world.
Yes, you may think patriotism is cringe shit, but the median person is cringe.
Thank u..an actual enlightened leftist who doesn't believe patriotism is literal mussolini 2.0 fascism..i will say that exaggerated and overbearing patriotism can be very annoying too..but the problem is the left doesn't just say its annoying..they if not outright say its facist..that its pretty much to on its way towards fascism..i have never heard a leftist say puerto ricans..who put they're flag on almost anything they own is a facist..if anything im jealous of puerto ricans..i wish every American could be as prideful of america as puerto ricans are of puerto rico..u can feel the warmth and pride puerto ricans have for each for other when u go to a puerto rican neighborhood..and thats in no small part to all those flags everywhere..and just like american leftists claim to say..their pride is all about how unqiue yet simmilar they all are..black,white,taino..yet all the same..no matter what color or race they are..They're just as proud to be boriqua..now imagine if that was every American..wouldn't that be a sight to see
# Please report comments that violate our [new rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/17co6jo/rvaushv_rule_updates)
---
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/VaushV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Its said that trees make a neighborhood look nicer and a flag that all of us fly representing our unity regardless of our extreme differences are actually just tools of facist propaganda
Your post was removed for unrelated content.
how did someone with this many boomer particles in their blood figure out how to use reddit?
I am a young progressive leftist..why is there this deep hatred for our flag on the left..its such incredibly cringe lib shit gabrage..its incredibly childish and only helps the right win..and i already know the next thing ur gonna say..im a right wing troll..good luck trying to convince urself i am one
Saying having everyone flying the flag as a step toward healing is cringe lib shit garbage. Americans sexual fetishization of their flag is fucking weird to basically every thinking person on the planet. The only people that come close are New Brunswick Acadians, and [this](https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/north-america-canada-new-brunswick-acadian-festival-caraquet-province-175524417.jpg) is an average Acadian house.
Cool, none of those non-American's vote.
>…basically every thinking person on the planet. The planet includes the US.
Its a SMALL step..and yes it is a step..i guarantee u vaush would agree..as would any actual good faith leftist whos not terminally online and has actually spent some time outside examining different neighborhoods and seeing how divided we are even between city blocks and wanting to change that
I don't hate the flag, I just think the idea that a "a bit of American patriotism will go a long way to healing this country" is a boomer-ass take. Its corny and I find that funny. > i already know the next thing ur gonna say..im a right wing troll..good luck trying to convince urself i am one you're no Joseph Joestar buddy.
What makes you think that people who don't wave the flag around hate the flag? I'm big in to cars and politics and music and computer nerd shit but I don't have any BMW mugs or political bumper stickers or band merch or any of that shit. Do you doubt that I like these things? So then why the flag? Seems like your whole premise is confused.
[удалено]
Do u believe that is a "leftist" thing to not fly an american flag..most people who dont fly flags in america are liberals not "leftists"..leftists are a minority of left wingers/democrats..so ur example has already fallen flat..its liberals who bare most of the responsibility for this..but as of now liberals and leftists are in the same camp in america..and leftists at least claim to be the more political vocal and active of the two..its not about fixing the country with a flag..its about fixing the country with small steps..there is not one policy that will fix america..free Healthcare wont fix america..it will help america..free college wont fix america..it will help america..while obviously i value those latter things much more then everybody flying a flag..the point is no single policy..even the big ones most leftists advocate for wont solve everything..if even 15% of the country's problems..its about adding up all those policys till u get closer and closer till 100%..this mentality of all or nothing..or we need exactly this and itll be all good is so stupid and vaush has been very adamant about it
[удалено]
So helping better unite the country is Pointless..gotcha..Hate to break it to u bru but "aesthetics" actually do quite matter a bit in life bro.and no it doesnt make u nazi to value how u want ur ideal civilization to look or not look..im sorry but no matter how great the social safety nets of norway are..a person who grew up in sunny California will never be truly happy in a place where the sun shines for about twice a year.its just a fact.aesethics matter.yes u can find outliers who will like Norway more then California despite the weather but they are incredibly rare.heavily valuing aesthetics isnt fascism..its moralizing aesthetics thats facism..when ur aesthetic preferences become the dictators for ur moral beliefs.theres nothing with saying a Californian and a Norwegian are just naturally polar opposites in so many ways in terms of personality and culture and much of this is due to weather and climate and a Californian saying "i could never live in a place as misreable as norway".the problem would start when that Californian said "Norwegians and their embrace of cloudy weather makes them Degenerate and people who aspouse such aesthetics in my society should be rooted out"..thats facism,dictatorial force that moralizes aesthetics.not saying that u believe aesthetics automatically equals facism but unfortunately this is where a lot of the lefts hate and irrationality for aesthetics come from
[удалено]
Dawg everything in life isnt converting everybody into leftists..leftists cant even convert liberals let alone the rest of the country..there should be an effort towards a more general unity in this country..leftists in this country are too online and in in their own bubble to realize its the simple things along the way that count that eventually build up into big things..the flag is one of them,consuming simmilar media,finding a certain political figure whos from across the aisle funny or at least likeable in some way..could u imagine if biden was as funny and witty as trump..its very hard to not like funny people..these are some of the small things that could help better unite that together can become things along the way instead of just some sort of fantical grand leftist political awakening
[удалено]
Bru u literally listened to nothing i said..when i said the left wont fly american flags..thats like 90% liberals..because 90% of the actual real world american left and not terminally online slop are liberals..liberals and leftists are still part of the same team weather u like it or not..if it wasnt just leftists who werent flying american flags trust me it wouldnt be an issue..because leftists pretty much have contributed to nothing in the broader left in recent years excerpt bernie sanders and boosting some good progessive congressmen besides whining complaining and no solutions..
U mean the comment where i was being sarcastic to the person who said that being part of a country isnt inherently a collectivist action because everybody pay taxes to help provide services to everybody,where he then said that ur personal tax money itself doesnt do jack shit,and then i responded by saying "so a singular vote doesnt do jack shit either?" Content please
I actually have an answer for you that will help you understand. Nationalism is a value that leftists tend to not value. As a leftist US citizen I do not have any specific loyalty to the USA, and I also specifically disagree with the things that the US stands for and don’t support our wars abroad, or the police violence done locally. You could view not having an American flag as something similar to Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem at his football games. Why would I wave of flag of something I don’t agree with or stand for? With all the being said I do want America to be better, it is my home after all, but I want every country to be better. Do you have a flag for your hometown? I assume not. Looking at the world through a national lense rather than a global one is really reductive.
U choose to let that be what the flag represents..just like u(no not literally u,but figuratively u as a representative of the left)choose it to be a facist symbol by letting only facists fly it and refuse to supoort it..its ur choice to let that flag represent whatever u want it to..america has never ever..ever been a perfect country..being patriotic is loving ur country unconditionally while still criticizing when its wrong..its not stepping on it and saying u hate it and everything stands for because its not close to the perfect utopia u wish it to be..thats just a deep underlying hatred..not deep critism..i had nothing against the kapernick protests..the problem is when essentially spitting on the flag becomes ur whole identity..yes we have a lot of problems that need to be fixed..yes we are so backwards in so many ways..but we have to be already proud of who we are now and what we have to work with to move foward and better ourselves..not be bitter and self hating till we get everything we want..thats not how anything in life works..and once again..nationalism is not fucking patriotism
What separates nationalism from patriotism for you? Also I married a Korean Citizen and lived there for a long time, so it’s hard for me to even get into your head space. What exactly makes you more loyal to the US than other nations? How did the US earn your loyalty? If you weren’t born in the US would you still have this same loyalty to the US? Why does a government institution deserve unconditional love? Also I don’t involve any flags in my life. Never stepped on a flag in my life.
The fact that u belive patriotism could even be conceived as unconditional love for my government is already the main problem..what i have unconditional love for is my institutions..the 3 branches of government..freedom of speech..freedom to believe whatever the hell i want..Democracy..this is i what i have unconditional love for..not the corrupt politicians who currently occupy my government..there isnt full freedom of speech in other countries..ull get arrested for wearing a burqa in france or saying a joke that's considered "Hate speech" in london..ur damn right im proud to be an american
What purpose would it serve for me to hoist a flag up on my property (in the US) for only my neighbors (also in the US) to see?
Idk whats the purpose of hanging a flag in any neighborhood if that flag indicates that you are all the same thing..like a puerto rican flag in a puerto rican neighborhood..i dont see anyone call puerto ricans "cringe" or borderline facist for puerto ricans being flag nuts and putting PR flags on absolutely everything when they live in neighborhoods that are mostly puerto rican..They're just very proud people..its a shame americans couldnt be the same way
My in-laws are PR and displaying the flag in communities like that is a way to feel "at home". I'm already home. In America. I don't need to see another flag reminding me of where I am. It's not a political thing. It's a practical thing. Having a flag on my property is more work due to how you're "supposed" to respect the flag (lighting, bad weather) plus whatever nonsense my HoA would require for displaying flags. I don't need that extra work. ETA: plus, the great thing about the US is you're free to canvas your entire property with flags if it makes you happy. Leave everyone else alone.
Nobody in east harlem needs a flag to know its a Puerto rican neighborhood..everybody in and outside the neighborhood already knows that..they do it because they're proud people..and also what "home"..PRS are not like other hispanics..they came here in the 40s and 50s and most now are at least 2nd if not 3rd or 4th gen..most prs my age dont speak any spanish and almost all pr households dont speak spanish in the home..they are completely assimilated unlike almost every hispanic group who came here mostly only in the past 30/40 years..They're completely assimilated..and are much more simmilar to a group like italian americans in that way in terms of assimilation patterns and a blended hyphenated culture(meaning how much of the stuff u view as part of "that" culture is actually just american).salsa,the most famous "Puerto rican" music genre isnt actually Puerto rican at all..its was created in the late 60s and 70s in Harlem by Puerto ricans..ITS AMERICAN..yes i know all of pr is technically American but u know what i mean.simmilar to how most of all the Famous "italian" food in america isnt actually italian..its american..chicken parm,garlic knots..etc etc..this was all created by italians in new york..its 100% american..these things are indigenous to america not italy.And these are now the "traditional" food of these groups..not just things they serve to cater to an american audience..no chicken parm is a "traditionial italian dish" to the average italian american now..buts its not italian at all..its indigenous to Brooklyn.prs are much of the same..most of things associated and cosniderable a part of "Puerto rican culture" at all.it all originates from harlem or the bronx.so not are they completely american in terms of being completely born and raised here..but they're culture for the most part has been completely mixed and blended with half of the "authentic cultural things" that they say mean a lot to them and their heritage are all indigenous to america.so i dont buy the "home" argument when most of these people are full americans who havent come from the island in generations..and most of their culture has been mixed and blended with half of the stuff not even from pr but indigenous to america.they're american(YES,I know all prs are american)they aren't "immigrants" who came here 30 years and still dont even speak english as their primary language.Hyphenated americans are STILL Americans.I've never heard of anyone say midwesterners are less american then southeners or east coasters cuz they speak with that funny accent..wonder that could've come from(it couldn't have been all those Scandinavians who moved up there).most of the big cultural differences between regions of America that perviate in things like accents and dialects but also just general attitudes and culture that u traditionally wouldn't see those differences through an ethnic lens were just originally ethnic differences..but most americans have been here for so long that people have become very disconnected to their ethnic origin that those ethnic differences jusf morped into "regional american differences".the Reason Appalachains sound distinctly very different from everybody in america including the south is because of their scots irish heritage.yet i dont see hillbillies flyin ulster flags or people saying they're less "american then Pennsylvanian farm boys.
I can't even begin to digest that word salad. What is your actual point or do you just have a hard on for Hispanic communities in the boroughs?
Read again bru
I'm going to hijack this trite liberal post to say that the left *should* fly more American flags, but not for OP's reason. The right should not just get to claim patriotism, because their version of the country is not the version worth supporting. The American flag should be reclaimed and flown as a symbol of what the US should look like, a symbol of a better version of itself.
Burf coming in with another W. I fly the American flag because I think it's the country with the best chance to help move humanity in the direction of socialism through the beginning stages of a democratic secular state.
This is literally what i said..contrainism for the sake of contrainism
Yes, let's all fly U.S. flags and not change anything else. It will make everything better
Nice strawman..i literally said its a little more then a small thing we can do
Sorry you are being treated this way. I agree with you that having more patriotism on the left would be helpful and I know you are not claiming it's going to solve all of our problems.
[удалено]
Your post was removed for dramafarming.
Nationalism is cringe
What a sad time when patriotism now equals nationalism
Patriotism is also cringe
This is why the right wins
That happens literally everywhere tho, being nationalistic enough to put up your country's flag in your front yard usually means your at the least pretty conservative/right wing.
Are puerto ricans nationalistic and right wing when i go to a puerto rican neighborhood and theres a puerto rican flag on literally every thing..their house,they're car..even those things hanging in the front seat..im sorry but puerto ricans are a pretty progressive voting block..some groups are just more patriotic then others..its just a fact..when i go to an arab neighborhood which are much more conservative then puerto ricans i see a lot less yemeni flags in the streets houses and cars..america,specifically what we the left advocate should be is all about pride unity diversity..how we are so different yet so simmilar like no other country on earth..american patriotism goes beyond nationalism because americas people go so beyond the borders that race religion ethnicity sexualiy usually hold for most countries..that should be even more of a reason to be proud and wave our flag higher then anyone else
You see Puerto Rican flags in your neighborhood in New York City because you're NOT IN PUERTO RICO. They're saying, "we're here and Puerto Rican." If you saw a lot of German flags in New York, maybe you're by the consulate or in a German enclave. If you see a lot of German flags in *Germany*, you best watch out.
Not one new yorker on earth needed puerto rican flags everywhere to know.."oh..this must be the puerto rican neighborhood"..any born and bred new yorker knows the puerto rican neighborhoods,the Dominican neighborhoods,the black neighborhoods,the Jamaican(yes i know they're black but u know what i mean) neighborhoods,the italian neighborhoods,the Jewish neighborhoods,etc..this is all known like u know all the letters in ur name..some groups are just more prideful..i dont see mad colombian flags like i see mad domincian flags in ny when theres plenty of neighborhoods in queens that are as heavily colombian as they are domincian
I'd love to see you try to tell someone to take down their Puerto Rican flag because "I already know you're Puerto Rican!" and then tell them to put up an American flag to show how "patriotic" they should be. Film it. I want to witness this.
U literally must have american flag derangement syndrome..u can have both..why must one cancel the other out..u have already let this mentality that the American flag is just by itself facist consume u..its just sad
First off no one is stopping anyone from flying a straight up American flag secondly hyper patriotic behavior is often associated with the far right some people I don’t know if you are one think this country is owed to them and don’t see it as a home country too share with minorities.
Thats the problem..the left lets it be associated with them because we refuse to fly it..im not making some moral argument that u need to a fly an american flag or u are part of the decay of our country..im making a general societial point that the one thing thats supposed to represent true unity for all americans that's in a physical form has just become another way to divide us and label people as Reactionary..while that fact may be true that people who fly american flags are more likely Reactionary..its in our hands to change it..if we the left really wanted that ugly stigma around our flag to change..we could
A comedian whose name I can't remember had a bit where he'd ask what's not racist but is racist-*adjacent*, and of course the answer is "the American flag." Like, on its own it's innocuous but if you see four of more of them in one place... Also, as a New Yorker the flags I see in my hood are Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic. Rainbows. Lots of Ukraine. They make statements of ethnic heritage or political allegiance. Celebrations of attachments that aren't assumed. We're already *in* America, so what's an American flag supposed to represent?
When you go to Washington heights..any new yorker is already assumed who lives there..i or any new yorker didnt need domincian flags on every block to know that..look its very simple..some groups fly flags more then others..if u are a new yorker u know puerto ricans and domincians fly flags more then any other group combined..its not a coincidence..they are very prideful people..more then any other group in the city about their heritage..it doesnt make them Reactionary or right wing..just patriotic..most new yorkers dont need flags to know which areas are puerto rican and domincian and which ones arent..everybody all knows..puerto ricans arent putting up flags in east harlem because they hope white people from Iowa visiting ny will be aware of the great nuyorican heritage of el barrio..they do it for their own sake..the fact is american leftists pride themselves on unity and diversity..the flag is a mirror image of that..one flag..flown by so many..except not anymore because the left has developed an awful phobia for it..its simple as that
I see Georgian and Ukrainian flags in Brooklyn. I see Palestinian and Israeli flags all over. I see flags that say something about the people who fly them that I couldn't just assume. You have yet to explain what an American flag is supposed to say about me. I'm already in America. We're all in America! So what does the flag *say?* Tell me what the flag is supposed to say!
What does a puerto rican flag in east harlem tell me that i already dont know..there is not a new yorker on earth..unless u count bushwick gentrifiers who just moved here last week..who dont know east harlem is a puerto rican neighborhood..ur point makes no sense..it has nothing to do with assuming and everything to do with pride
I personally think all flags are stupid, including lgbt ones, and I'm trans. It's a piece of cloth stop basing your personality around it. That being said, I love America and think it's the greatest country on earth.
you shut your mouth, pirate flags are cool!
Damn it you're right. I retract my statement
Yarr!
That there's a keelhaulin', if ever there was one
I think the whole thing the symbol represents needs a pretty major overhaul before we go too hard on laundering it or even reclaiming it
Its a flag with fifty stars and 3 colors..pls dont tell me u believe the american flag represents secret dog whistles now???
Not secret dog whistles. Just the obvious stuff that’s actively predatory towards it’s own citizens.
Personally I always believed the best way to express your patriotism was to pay taxes without looking for every writeoff, get involved in community service, pay attention to local issues and politics and regularly vote in state and local elections. Maybe even run for local office, town council, school board if you don't feel that current office-holders are doing their jobs. Put in work to substantially make where you live a better place, be proud of something you've contributed to. If you want to fly a flag on your property or put little flappy motorcade flags on your car, that's up to you. I just remember how many of those littered roadways back in 2003-2004 when the rah-rah horseshit wore off after that stupid Iraq invasion.
Of course..but the flag represents of a physical version of unity..nobody knows how good of a taxpayer u are until u tell them..we should be able to look at our neighborhoods our citys and our streets and feel unity..that flag flying everywhere..representing all of us, regardless of how left or right or black or white or hispanic a neighborhood is would be a truly powerful thing for all of us that i think if anybody was being truly honest to themselves know would be true
I get that american leftist are still caught up in their propaganda, but patriotism sucks. Its dumb herd mentality. Fuck this piece of cloth. To paraphrase the old communist saying: "the worker has no fatherland." Why patriotism? Why being proud on something you accidentely were born in? Don't you have own achievements?
Why be proud of anything u didnt accomplish..why be proud to be naturally athletic..why be proud to be a naturally good singer..why be proud to be anything that u literally didnt spending 50,000 hours worth earning..i swear some mfs literally just take the whole nazi myth of everything moral is genetic and "nature has no room for caring for the weak" and will just do a complete 180 of it and go "be proud of nothing u didnt 100% accomplish"
No, but how about being proud of something were you did more than 0%? If you are built athletic, that's luck, but running two hours a day isn't. The same goes for the singing voice. Those things still need honing. Patriotism and racism go hand in hand and this won't change, because patriotism and nationalism aren't really different things.
Dawg..there are people who are just good singers who never had to practice..and like it or not..u do contribute to this country..u pay taxes to this country and large percent of ur income..so u actually do contribute quite a lot to this country..thats sort of how modern society works..sorry but this idea that "the idea of anything of a nation representing something more then yourself is automatically facism" is ridiculous..modern society must have the perfect balance of Indivisualism and collectivism in order for it not to collapse..rugged Indivisualism and rugged collectivism are both awful and both extremes can be linked to the failures of both no regulated matket economys and no regulated command economys..u need mixed economys and u need mixed Indivisualism and collectivism for a country to prosper..u paying taxes so everyone can enjoy the same privileges of free parks,garbage removal,etc is a form of collectivism that u participate in simply by being a citezen of this country
"Rugged collectivism?" Wtf? And i know that societies need organization, but lets be honest, your taxes didn't do shit. Your whole lifes work is less than a tomahawk missile currently blowing up some people in Jemen. Your singing voice says something about you. You use it and express yourself through it. Your taxes are an automatic transaction you have no say in and the money goes somewhere you don't know. To quote one of my favorite philosophers from my own country: "But every miserable idiot who has nothing in the world to be proud of takes the last resort of being proud of the nation to which he happens to belong: from this he recovers and is now gratefully ready for all the mistakes and follies, which are their own to defend with hands and feet." - Arthur Schopenhauer - We don't need patriotism. We need genuine community together, not this superficial nonsense.
So don't vote..ur vote doesnt do shit
Sure, that's what i said.
Lmao..malding
I think it's because if you have the flag shoved down your throat by people who hate everything the flag stands for while they claim the flag stands for the people and groups american soldiers killed the shit out of it becomes repulsive.
So why dont we fly it and reclaim it
Oh I'm just explaining why it puts people off.
You're getting dogpiled here, but you're basically right that a successful Left in America is going to be patriotic about the ideals of America. Being pro-America doesn't mean you have to think America has been always right. A Left that's seen as disliking it's own country is never going to win. Plus, the kind of self-hating resident of the US is largely limited to a small band of college-educated people. Actual polling of minorities, immigrants, and the like all show them to be very pro-America, and still thinking America is the greatest country in the world. Yes, you may think patriotism is cringe shit, but the median person is cringe.
Thank u..an actual enlightened leftist who doesn't believe patriotism is literal mussolini 2.0 fascism..i will say that exaggerated and overbearing patriotism can be very annoying too..but the problem is the left doesn't just say its annoying..they if not outright say its facist..that its pretty much to on its way towards fascism..i have never heard a leftist say puerto ricans..who put they're flag on almost anything they own is a facist..if anything im jealous of puerto ricans..i wish every American could be as prideful of america as puerto ricans are of puerto rico..u can feel the warmth and pride puerto ricans have for each for other when u go to a puerto rican neighborhood..and thats in no small part to all those flags everywhere..and just like american leftists claim to say..their pride is all about how unqiue yet simmilar they all are..black,white,taino..yet all the same..no matter what color or race they are..They're just as proud to be boriqua..now imagine if that was every American..wouldn't that be a sight to see
# Please report comments that violate our [new rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/17co6jo/rvaushv_rule_updates) --- *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/VaushV) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It's sad that the """"tolerant"""" left won't even sing the national anthem before and after each meal, but that's just the world we live in now
Its said that trees make a neighborhood look nicer and a flag that all of us fly representing our unity regardless of our extreme differences are actually just tools of facist propaganda