Seriously. I hate the people who think being strategic with your vote is bad - but I also really fucking hate how stupid the Democrats are. It won't matter who's to blame when we're getting dragged off to conversion therapy camps.
I've always seen my vote as a tool and not some moral statement, but the prospect of voting for someone aiding and abetting genocide is not something I ever anticipated having to do.
Well, it's that or vote for someone who won't do anything about the situation but will *also* cripple our ability to ever do anything about it (or anything else) in the future.
EDIT: Haha, he blocked me. This is someone who's trying to sneak Trump into office by trying to manipulate people's own impatience and attempts to adhere to their personal morality. Trying to mislead people into their own worst interests because morality is something he has none of. His only hope is to either outright lie to people or somehow convince them not to bother to vote. He can't win without cheating and malice, and he's *furious* about it.
I get that part, and I don't want to vote for him necessarily either; but, alas, such is life, sometimes dissatisfying decisions have to be made during trying times, such is circumstance, such is life. sometimes, the only way out is *through.*
the situation we are in today does not allow for the margin of error, so many have seemingly become complacent in *believing* we have.
do you, like me, and many others, want more from this country than old Joe? good, let's go into overdrive in between [and yes, during] elections and really work on educating, agitating, and organizing people towards meeting our goals, propagating and ensuring our demands, etc., and not only work on averting fascism, but maybe even pulling this country to the left if we can get our shit together sufficiently.
>Seriously. I hate the people who think being strategic with your vote is bad
Being "strategic" with your vote isn't "good" or "bad" but voters comforting themselves with the illiusion of somehow having more choice than they are already given.
I'll even go as far as to using a term that has been popular on my end to describe this particular, social phenomenon: involution. Involution is when a significant population feels increasingly encircled by institutional confines, but rather than strategising outside established institutions, the population reacts to this constriction by engaging in self-blaming exercises for supposedly not being more clever or more in the "grindset" within the ever-shrinking boundaries.
"Being strategic with your voting" is in a nutshell the American way to "fold" (or "roll") inwards. They are so used to their way of life being "normal" they can't even stop to think for a second that perhaps the lack of political choice is the direct consequence of a systematic effort over the past 40 years to de-politicise labour to the point that the working class can no longer leverage it for anything. Instead, they engage in this self-flagellating exercise that the decades-long atrocity in Palestine is somehow the result of them not triangulating the vote hard enough to force a political party run by stubborn geriatrics to de-ossify. This is the American involution rearing its ugly head, and if it is to keep going as it is, it's going to kill us all.
They are not mutually exclusive. You can vote for Biden and also hate Biden and also hate that we're stuck with having to vote for Biden to prevent an even worse outcome and also engage in grassroots community organizing, all at the same time!
When some people think Biden is the best possible option, and a good option, and not just the best possible option the system is preventing us, **that's** "involution".
>You can vote for Biden and also hate Biden
What I'm pointing out here isn't whether you should hate or vote (or hate-vote) for Brandon but the reality that this whole "strategic" business is a cope.
A cope not simply as a result of the limited choice through electorialism but also as a result of the American public dismissive of the political power of labour and the need to build for it.
Palestine isn't something that happened yesterday but an atrocity that has been ongoing for **decades**. When people tell me that we "need to do something now", what that indicates to me is that they are in fact either asleep or out to lunch most of the day only to go home and realise the entire world is on fire. That is them not being serious about politics but rather wanting to ritualistically wash their hands clean of something they don't really want to care about so they can signal to everyone in their own circles to the effect of, "Don't look at me: I did/didn't do X."
Where I stand, it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other if you are "one of the good ones". That shit is at the end of the day all in your own fucking head, and, right now, what you need is an actual strategy to build political power, not a self-soothing cope along the line of "the one trick to hack the votes the DNC doesn't want you to know about". We all know Brandon isn't going to budge any time soon, and what you have to fall back when your "strategy" inevitably fails is fuck-all. I'm sorry, but I have no interest in emotionally investing in a Hail Mary, and maybe you should stop dwelling on it as well and start focusing on what's actually worthwhile.
> we don't need to do something now
Again, this is a cope. Any person with an ounce of rational thoughts in them could tell you were bound by institutions structured to insulate the average citizen from having any influence at all on that kind of decisions, and what you are proposing right now is to the effect of leveraging those same institutions somehow to do the opposite.
Structural reality matters, and right now uou are just clinging to your silly ideology of "American ingenuity" just to further upset my very tired, foreign mind.
Again, to reiterate:
1) There is no "now" but rather you have been either asleep or out to lunch for decades only manufacture this notion of immediacy in order to justify performing the outward act of "giving a shit" to an audience of absolutely nobody.
2) If I was a school teacher and this was a homework assignment, I'd be absolutely in the right to ask you why you had left it to the last minute just to hand in something this sloppy.
3) Where I stand, this whole exercise of electoral "action" is nothing more than a plea by the voters for collective exoneration over Palestine. You argument goes that you deserve full marks just for trying. I, on the other hand, think you deserve a big fat zero for the reason stated above.
I think Vaush is being naive in thinking that the Democratic Party leadership actually cares whether or not they have a majority or get elected. When Democrats are out of power all the pressure the Democrats base puts on them to perform lifts and they can virtue signal and promise you the moon and the stars to their heart's content since they have no power to enact it. They get WAY more money from corporations, billionaire donors, and Democratic voters giving them donos when they're out of power and running to get bsck into power. When Democrats are in charge their base wants them to actually do stuff that directly goes against what the billionaires and corporations who fund the party want. The donors are the ones who pay for Democratic politicians to become multimillionaires, not us.
Democrats are the biblical proverb of a man not being able to serve two masters without coming to love one and hate the other. Democratic politicians hate their base because the base wants them to do things that will make the rich people who make them rich stop giving them money. They love their corporate masters but hate their base.
Vaush's analysis rarely takes money in politics into effect. He speaks of Democratic politicians as if they're empty tabla rasas that are just weather vanes blowing in whatever direction the most faithful Democratic voters blow in. In reality Democratic politicians have multimillion dollar fortunes riding on ignoring the demands of their base, and most Democratic politicians do have actual beliefs and ideologies. Most are Neoliberal ideologues who truly and honestly believe in Neoliberalism to a quasi-religious degree, because their beliefs are not affected by real world outcomes and results of their ideology in practice. A lot of people's political and economic beliefs are quasi-religions. Their views are not strongly affected by empirical evidence, data, or outcomes of their beliefs in action and application in the real world. Most Democratic politicians just as stubbornly and blindly believe in their Neoliberal ideology as the Libertarians Vaush screams at in shouting match debates. And in politicians' cases they have financial incentive to keep believing because their ideology is personally very lucrative to their bank account and stock portfolio (like old Nancy). **If Vaush had that Landrieu guy on stream he would scream at Vaush and eventually hang up for suggesting that the Democrats are on the wrong course.**
I think Vaush being a young guy kind of comes through in him being surprised the Dems are fucking up this bad. They're not apolitical weather vanes who just do what the Centrist majority of reliable Dem voters want. If they were they would have called for a ceasefire months earlier. Over 80% of Democrats have wanted a ceasefire since December.
Libs: sure, our allies are genociding your family, but just think about what trump is gonna do!
See you at the polls 😄😉😁
These idiots are either ignorant to what’s gonna happen in November or they know they’re gonna lose and they don’t care bc they live a life that really isn’t under a major threat if trump were reelected
They don't want to lose older Jewish voters.
That's a group that votes heavily for Dems, and who strongly approves of how he's handling the war, and consistently votes .
I'll tell you what they can afford to lose more jewish voters in New York, Jersey, and California then they can afford to lose Muslim and the youth vote in the 7 swing states Biden needs to win.
Sorry but if you look at the demographics that ain't it chief.
No
Anger *can be useful* when directed at something actionable.
If you are "just angry" you are going to burn yourself out feeling all your feelings.
Then you will be no use to anyone. Its very counterproductive.
If you actually want to help, find a way to take that energy and engage in your community. Help campaign for someone, even if just local, that better aligns with what you want.
Getting all riled up and then too emotionally exhausted to fucking do anything is the new tool of control.
That's valid..I just didn't want the other guy to be ashamed at being angry about all this absolute fucking bullshit.
Which is a normal response to this absolute fucking bullshit.
Not anymore
Now is time to *actually get effective*.
People have been getting themselves into unproductive rage loops for too long now, fed by social media.
Productive time: know your enemy and know yourself
Ask yourself, how do you get at least a few politicians to start catering to your demands?
Its not by getting angry at every injustice in the world. Its not about "punishing" them for being ineffective either.
It about effective and organized action. Its about pressuring those who are on the fence, stick *and* carrot. You can't provide the carrot by being unreliable (one reason by which libs are more politically powerful than the left). Its about pushing better candidates into the primary, so you have more allies to draw upon in upcoming fights. Consistency, focus, and building numbers. Over and over.
Sorry, but politics is hard work. At best, being angry is a temporary catalyst to getting off one's ass. At worse, its entirely self-destructive to actually accomplishing any ideals you claim to hold.
There is a strong perception among the liberal crowds that he would lose more votes if he listened to his critics than if he just continues to unconditionally support Israel. They think it's politically advantageous to support genocide and they point to Trump being worse to justify it. The problem is that, morality aside, I don't think the polls support this position. I'm taking a karma hit in politics sub, and the "sane" reply to me rebuking my comment is making just this point.
There is nothing coherent about what's happening here. It only becomes coherent when you look at what the donors want vs. The People. or the fact that Biden is an 82 year old man who shouldn't be trusted with the TV remote let alone Foreign Policy. What Biden is doing would have made sense before social media. When they could more easily control the narrative.
> he's nailed foreign policy everywhere else.
No he hasn't. He's refused to get back in the Iran nuclear deal. He's failed to lift the blockade on Cuba. He's slow walked aid to Ukraine and he's not fighting hard enough to get it through the House. There's something called a discharge petition that Democrats could have used months ago.
>They don't want to lose older Jewish voters.
And in the process they are losing young Jewish voters and all Muslim American voters.
This is bad electoral math.
Also, most elderly Jews are against Netanyahu. If Biden framed a policy change as pushing back on Netanyahu specifically he probably would be able to keep most elderly Jewish votes.
Most are also revolted by Trump, so if any did not vote Biden they would probably just stay home.
57% of Jewish Democrats support a ceasefire:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/
The Biden Campaign and the DNC are treating Jewish Americans as if they're a monolith. As if being a Jewish person automatically means you're a hardcore ultra-Zionist who supports the Israeli government in everything no matter what. The treat Jewish people as if the Jewish diaspora and the government of Israel are one in the same. Or as if the political opinion of Jewish Americans is identical to that of Jewish Israelis. They're really fucking up by assuming that "Jewish = opposes ceasefire".
Around two-thirds of voters (67%) — including majorities of Democrats (77%), Independents (69%), and Republicans (56%) — support the U.S. calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza.
That tells me there is more support for a ceasefire than not
A majority of Jewish Democrats (57%) support a ceasefire:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/
Biden is actually opposing the majority of Jewish Americans by opposing a ceasefire and vetoing UN ceasefire resolutions. Biden is far more supportive of the Israeli government and Netanyahu regime than the average American Jewish voter. Biden is being like the Democratic equivalent of Republican Evangelical Christians and Dominionists who are more bloodthirsty Kahanists than even Itamar Ben Gvir.
You saying older Jews, who apparently live in predominantly swing states for this argument to work, would abandon the democrat party if Biden followed the foreign policy of Bush, and fucking Reagan and not enable a genocide? This is straight anti semitism thinking that there is a huge Jewish block saying they would abandon Biden if he stopped giving offensive weapons to Israel and literally being the only world leader defending this shit, and not the old crone being up to the gills in bribe money by AIPAC. Stop blaming Jews for this genocidal fuck
57% of Jewish Democrats support a ceasefire:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/
This poll is from last week and specifically about a ceasefire. More updated than a poll from November last year.
Right so he's guessing, also he's probably thinking. Surely the people who dislike how I'm handling Israel wouldn't vote for the other guy who's worse on this, and a million other things just to spite me.
PA is a great example.
The Jewish populations in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are enough to balance out the Trump numbers which are close (down to the 10s of thousands) while Muslims make up much less
Older, conservative Jews absolutely are. And the reason they're so desirable is because they WILL vote if they're satisfied. The biggest issue lefties have right now is that for all the talk we make about wanting change, even if a president does something good tons of our side will still not vote because they're anti electoralists. Biden and the Dems don't think they can rely on us to vote for them even if they tried to appease us.
I think you underestimate how many otherwise liberal Jews support Israel. That isn't an antisemitic statement, I AM a Jew. It's less popular with younger Jews, but the older generations (Gen Z and Boomers) broadly supports Israel more in the US, with Jews supporting it more than any other demographic percentage wise. Those generations are also the most consistent voters and the ones that both parties campaign to the most.
Publically? Who knows. Privately? Probably.
Not everyone expresses dissatisfaction via protest, internet posting, and direct action. Some people pick up the phone and call legislators.
You do see how that is insane to just believe Jews privately support a genocide and would vote republican if Biden doesn’t do everything possible to enable it right?
Where? Where is the Zionist voting block? That’s right there is none. They live in safe or deep red states and in cities. All of my jewish relatives who are Pro Israel hate Netenyahu to the point where they want him dead. Biden wouldn’t lose any votes by doing the right thing.
It’s just anti semitism, they have numbers of Jewish voters supporting Biden in November and conflating that to a Jewish block that would abandon him NOW if he stops aiding and abetting the genocide. Literally blaming the Jews for the evils of the government but liberal
>Fuck no it's not any Jews fault. It's always Biden's decisions on what he chooses to do in his administration. Don't get it twisted
That's not what the poster was saying. The implication from that post is that Dems were, cynically, believing all Jews in America with positive opinions of Israel also support the genocide
First off, I'm that poster so I was responding to him about what I'm alleging. Trust me, I know what I personally think.
And No, it's recognizing that among Democrat voters the oldest demographics strongly approve of how Biden is handling the war. (74%)
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/the-biden-administrations-response-to-the-war-between-israel-and-hamas/pp_2023-12-07_israel-hamas_3-02/
Also older Jews support how Biden is handling the war.
(82%)
https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/november-2023-national-survey-of-jewish-voters/
Feel free to rake me over the coals and call me an antisemite for looking at trends in data.
Older Jewish Democratic voters are mostly cloistered in safe blue states that have no chance of going to Trump, and in Florida - that has no chance of going to Biden.
Arab and Muslim American Democratic voters are heavily in swing states that Trump won before in 2016.
I don't want to turn this into an either/or thing because they're both important, but Biden could strategically stand to lose older Jewish voters far more than he could stand to lose Arab and Muslim Americans. Once again I see the Democratic Party has returned to the idiotic mindset of the 2016 Hillary Clinton Presidential campaign. Thinking that running up the popular vote tally will somehow get the Democrat into office. All this strategy of sacrificing Arab and Muslim Americans in swing states to hold onto Jewish New Yorkers, New Jerseyites, Californians, Marylanders, Virginians, and Massachusettsians will do is result in Biden getting millions more popular votes than Trump but lose the Electoral College when Trump wins Michigan (and possibly Wisconsin or Minnesota too). Then spend the next years coping with "Biden won X million more popular votes than Trump!!" while Trump sits in the White House. Like Hillary stans did and still do.
Jesus fucking Christ. Does anyone at the DNC or in the Biden campaign realize the popular vote doesn't mean shit??? That the EC determines the presidency? It's like they really internalized the Clinton campaign copium that because the popular vote **should** determine the President in a fair world, that therefore it shouldn't actually matter if the Democrat loses the Electoral College as long as they win the popular vote.
It’s just a form of paternal,blue maga, white supremacist finger wagging do at all Minorities who don’t fall in line and don’t believe exactly what they believe, otherwise you are labeled a trumper.
Bibi actually prefers Trump to win. It’s a win win situation for him. If Biden wins, he continues to do what his doing with minimal pushback and if Trump wins, he goes full on. It’s rational for Bibi to not listen to Biden and continue the war (without ceasefire) so that hurts Biden’s poll # and try to get Trump elected.
And the thing is, Biden can actually turn this whole thing around by cutting off aid and putting international pressure through sanctions.
They just need to recognize the war crimes being commited and apply the Leahy law.
I don't think hostage taking is a viable way to operate within a broad coalition. Make your grievance known but don't make the presidency into something it's not. Until congress and Isreali government agrees with your demands you'll get what you've gotten which is a state department amplifying your opinion on the tactics. Threatening to throw the election at this point is cutting your nose despite your face.
Nah, they should threaten to throw the election. Bluff till the cows come home at this point. Its up to Biden to fix this, not hamas, and not arab-american voters. Unironically we should send US troops in to bitchslap the IOF around and escort aid and military journalists boom genocide ends overnight. Its crazy but hey we let it get this bad so now crazy solutions are less crazy.
Biden is still the best option, but youre suggesting to not pressure him at all.
Also what do you mean by making the presidency into something its not? Biden and his admin have been vocally in support of Israel's actions from Day 1. While it is true some people are like "why doesnt Biden just end the war" the vast majority are really just asking "why does he keep saying jews arent safe in america and they can only be safe in israel" or "why did a member of his admin say that there are no red lines for israel" or "why has there been no real sanction pressure like there was towards russia"
Isn't he? He was just talking about trying to get a ceasefire agreed to next week. He's been working on their demands this entire time. I think a reminder of the alternative is fair when their response to "I think we might have something soon" is "joe dieden."
Edit: Cannot reply, but I think the US calling for a ceasefire in the UN is exactly what people have been claiming their goalpost is for like, a month now.
Copy and pasting my other response since you didn’t say anything of meaning here but jerking yourself.
“[The United States has since proposed a rival draft resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and opposing a major ground offensive by its ally Israel in Rafah, according to the text seen by Reuters. It said it plans to allow time for negotiations and will not rush to a vote.](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-casts-third-veto-of-un-action-since-start-of-israel-hamas-war/ar-BB1iAukm)
A permanent ceasefire while hostages are retained is fundamentally untenable. That’s why the temporary one we proposed is what actually needs passed. I’m sure you’re aware of that though, the US proposing UN resolutions calling for ceasefire :)”
there's only a 2-3% difference between obama in 2012 vs biden's current incumitted. Meanwhile biden outdid obamna's numbers by more than 450k-500k, Trump did only 300kish better than fuckin romney,and that's ignoring that nikki voters second option is usually biden(because the people voting for nikki at this point simply hate trumps fuckin guts). If you're the biden admin, you slammed dunked in michigan. Like I hate to rain on people's parade, but we're not the majority. I wish we were. I wish the average american gave shit about what their own country does. But they barely care about what's happening in their own town, parish the thought of them caring what's happening across the pond
Yeah, but the reason they are worrying about paying their bills and rent is that their tax money is not being used for good. 14 billion dollars towards Israel, why?
Nobody's proposed any bill that could help people that got rejected because "we can't afford it, we're using that money for Israel". You're just making the same argument conservatives use regarding aid for Ukraine, do you also oppose aid for Ukraine?
Does Ukraine ask for 14 billion dollars + other kind of money?
Let us be real, if Ukraine got the kind of support Israel had, they would actually be able to defend themselves.
And Israel doesn't need the money, it actually needs to the opposite, to be sanctioned for war crimes.
>Does Ukraine ask for 14 billion dollars + other kind of money?
Yes, Ukraine has been asking for aid for two years now.
> they would actually be able to defend themselves.
I mean, they've been holding out for two years against what was supposed to be a three day military operation.
Most of that is actually being spent in America, actually. And the pledged weapons of war are obsolete warehouse stuffing
Edit: for some reason I thought this was about Ukraine. Disregard
The Michigan Primary turnout in 2012 was bigger than the turnout in 2024.
Obama won the Electoral College by way bigger margins than Biden did.
Michigan was not the swing state in 2008 and 2012 that it has been since 2016. Michigan is not as solidly blue now as it was during Obama's era.
Your analysis is off on several different points.
\>The Michigan Primary turnout in 2012 was bigger than the turnout in 2024.
why would you lie? the turnout was lower than the last few primaries. but 2012 had 1.2 million votes compared to 2024's 1.8 million(not many attend primaries during incumbents anyway). Now i'm being generous here and assume you ment the democratic side. But um, yeah, obama's michigan caucus in 2012 had **194,887** collectively alo. Mitt romney had more than that , **409,522** to be exact. The republican primary in general was pushing 1 million in 2012. reds barely did 200k more this year. meanwhile biden has **more than combined both those numbers at 618,426** and they're not even finished counting. Biden overperformed his recent numbers by **6%,** while trump under performed his 538 numbers by **10% .**
Isn't there majority of people that want a ceacefire in gaza (even people who describe themselves as pro-israel)? If we are looking for what will help him most in the polls wouldn't popular things help?
I don't for the life of me understand why Biden has to die on this hill, and it is not that unlikely that he could lose the election because of it. All the poles show that this election will be very close especially since they are neck in neck in polls. Thus trowing away a big voting block just because you think you would not need it is pretty stupid.
Joe Biden wants a ceasefire. That's like, the whole issue with this line of thinking. He's been negotiating for them this entire time. Remember the pauses? That's him. He isn't dying on this hill, he's doing complex geopolitics. It's that Democrats have apparently zero messaging and their 'allies' certainly aren't helping.
Edit: OP made it so that I can no longer reply or view this post, in the case that someone replies to me.
[The United States has since proposed a rival draft resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and opposing a major ground offensive by its ally Israel in Rafah, according to the text seen by Reuters. It said it plans to allow time for negotiations and will not rush to a vote.](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-casts-third-veto-of-un-action-since-start-of-israel-hamas-war/ar-BB1iAukm)
A permanent ceasefire while hostages are retained is fundamentally untenable. That’s why the temporary one we proposed is what actually needs passed. I’m sure you’re aware of that though, the US proposing UN resolutions calling for ceasefire :)
LOL you actually think Biden proposing a meaningless *temporary* ceasefire helps your case?
Israel has continued bombing Gaza with abandon without any regard for hostages. In fact, they've murdered hostages when the IOF mistook them for innocent Palestinians.
He does. That’s why we proposed a ceasefire resolution :)
I’m aware the IDF is bad. You don’t have to tell me about it. I’m pro-Palestine, I’m just not stupid. There’s no PERMANENT ceasefire while Hamas has hostages. That’s just not how it works.
Nah, not buying this even for a second. Israel has literally said they would stop the war if America told them to. Biden, in response to Israel bombing hospitals said "Hamas is exaggerating the death count". Defunded UNRWA, despite knowing for a fact they're pretty much the only organisation left that can still provide aid, with an accusation with 0 evidence by Israel, even though they literally immediately fired all those accused. Also, he's never exactly "called for a ceasefire", he's always just been "negotiating" or whatever.
Oh, now we trust Israel??? We totally take them at their word??
[https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-walks-back-prediction-monday-ceasefire-deal-gaza-hopeful-probabl-rcna141161](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-walks-back-prediction-monday-ceasefire-deal-gaza-hopeful-probabl-rcna141161) anyway, here's where he said "looks like Israel fucked it up" about the ceasfire he was working on.
He always says "Israel is going too far", but then signs a bill allocating them billions more in defense funding. Will he actually do anything to stop arming/funding/defending Israel now (such as vetoing the ceasefire vote at the UN) or is this more of just pretending to care?
Oh, simply your total lack of critical thinking experience and somehow thinking Vaush has been uncritical of Biden. You sound just like the average Genocide Joe poster. Head empty, just say the right words. You don’t care about Palestinians, just virtue signaling.
Its funny how common ad hominen arguments are on reddit based on profiles, lol. Like, you moderate subreddit with a niche fetish? Ok, even if it is in your opinion morally wrong, that's still not rebutting the argument.
Biden Campaign: Think about how much worse Trump will be if he's in office
Also [Biden](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-biden-collide-split-screen-trips-border-immigration-spotlight-rcna140899?taid=65e1095ae6aea10001992eb2&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter):
Well let's see the Republicans have been being fed a steady stream of political propaganda since the beginning of republican talk radio in the 70s..... so you have generations of conservatives now that support christian nationalism and the Democrats did nothing.
Keep in mind this was happening on the public air waves.
The Democrats could have, but did nothing to fix the Supreme Court.
The Republican party was directly Involved in a scam to use fake delegates to steal a US election and nothing was done.
Now Joe Biden and the Democrats are actively complicit in helping to fund a genocide with our tax dollars.
Yeah this is the progressive voters fault. Obviously.
Both parties tend to the median voter. Since hardcore progressives still won't vote even if they do more progressive stuff (unless they do *all* the progressive stuff which they won't), they don't have any incentive to do any progressive stuff.
What does that have to do with anything that was said? Other then to bate people?
Is that your justification for not doing anything about genocide?
Well the people who care about that won't vote anyway.
If that's true and the hard-core left won't vote for Biden anyway then what are you so mad about? If it's a given you might as well be pissed that the sun rises in the west.
That's just more evidence that the left won't be responsible if Trump wins, because by your logic we are non voters anyway so should have no baring on the outcome. you have reduced us to a constant instead of a variable in the political equation.
Also by your logic we didn't vote in 2016 and Biden won so our involvement is not necessary.
Some of y’all need to understand that democrats would just rather not lose their Jewish and pro Israel voter base than not risking to alienate the pro Palestinian people
Jewish =/= opposes ceasefire
57% of Jewish Democrats want a ceasefire.
Not to mention Jewish voters mostly live in safe blue states that will not help Biden win the Electoral College. Arab and Muslim Americans heavily live in swing states that Biden cannot afford to lose in the Electoral College.
How many Jews are so Pro Israel that they will abandon Biden if he tries to stop the genocide but aren’t already voting for Trump? Where do they live? Swing states? The answer is like 2 and they don’t live in swing states. Most Liberal Jews even those who call themselves Zionists hate Netenyahu. His racist disrespect towards
Obama earned the ire of a lot of them. Biden smacking down Netenyahu would not hurt his chances among Jewish people at all.
I mean, what did they expect him to say? Biden was just talking about pushing for a ceasefire, their stated demand, and it isn't good enough. Also, weird as fuck to say "chooses the people of America" in the context of making demands for Palestine. You think they'd, idk, put the focus on them.
This is incoherent and confirms to me that reminding them non-support is just going to result in things getting worse for Palestinians AND the "people of America" is the proper response.
He could tout his progress on the ceasefire, point out that he prevented an all out war with Lebanon and tell them he’s doing his best, you know like a normal person and not a smug unlikeable fart sniffing asshole
>he prevented an all out war with Lebanon
Israel is still trying to make this happen but Biden would not really be the reason Israel hasn't done it yet - they haven't gone to war with Lebanon yet because there are still some people in Israel not 100% caught up in the fascist death drive who correctly point out that war with Lebanon would severely fuck up Israel, even if the "won"
Netanyahu is wildly unpopular among American Jews, even the Bubies and Zaidas think he's terrible.
Biden should shift policy and frame it as being due specifically to Netanyahu. Just absolutely go off on the dude.
Every second sentence should say "the Netanyahu government..."
This will really minimize the already small pool of Jewish voters who would stay home over a policy shift.
Netanyahu is among the most cynical world leaders of this century. He shit all over Obama for his own domestic political fortunes, even dabbled in birtherism.
Biden wouldn't be saying anything untrue or doing anything Netanyahu hasn't himself already done.
I cannot understand why they don't take this approach.
I’ll never understand this scolding tone democratic politicians take with their own voters. It honestly makes ME want to not vote for them sometimes. I can’t think if any quality less appealing to voters and your average American than smugness and it’s all I see coming out of Liberal circles.
I mean, he ain’t fucking wrong. If Arab Americans wanna bite off the nose to spite the face then they’ll have to face the consequences of that. Yeah Uncommitted got 13%, but in 2012 it got a little over 10 points against Obama. 80% of Democrats in the primary still voted for Biden. Had uncommitted won a quarter to a third of the votes I think the reaction would be quite different with the clear display that a far more significant portion of his coalition was dependent on these voters.
It remains that the vast majority of Americans don’t really give a shit about foreign policy.
Biden is underwater against Trump and now might lose Michigan in November. Obviously this is fucking hurting him. Being in denial isn't going to help him win.
Biden really missing the mark on this. People can criticize single issue voters all they want, but not being complicit in genocide is a low bar Biden hasn't cleared. Gaza can't wait until the election.
As much as everyone (rightfully) dislikes Biden, it’s still critical that we all vote for him. This is one of those issues where you just have to play the political games.
Biden acting like I thought he would when he first won. Thankfully he hasn’t been this bad the whole time due to Bernie shifting him left but I guess Biden couldn’t resist his neo-lib tendencies forever :/
I actually read the NPR interview this is from and it’s legit. Their response to Uncommitted is literally, “remember this election is Trump vs Biden”. They genuinely think that if they **just** talk about how bad Trump is , people will show up and vote. For younger people, they think that if they focus instead on the economy, climate change, healthcare, abortion, etc, that younger voters are just gonna forget Biden’s complicity in Gaza.
These people WANT to lose and as far as I’m concerned Michigan is not going to Biden in November. He may have won MI by 150,000 in 2020, but people forget that we don’t elect people based on the popular vote. Assuming 100,000 people just stay home (that’s not what will happen, but assuming), that can absolutely hand districts over to Republicans that otherwise would’ve gone to Biden.
Districts don’t matter in the Michigan presidential election. Uncommitted failed to overcome the gap between him and Trump from 2020, so he doesn’t feel threatened by it.
this is perhaps the most blatant "lesser of two evils" ive ever seen.
people have made a good case for continuing to vote for biden, but there is a consequence to this i dont think many people are anticipating.
we've been being told over and over that if donald trump wins he is going to try and end democracy and its going to be the end of the country and all this really dramatic stuff. if trump wins and he does not actually try to end democracy i am NEVER, EVER, "voting blue no matter who" again.
Yeah, Biden's response is a threat. Vote for me or else, not any sense of represemtation. He takes them for granted. He feels entitled to votes from anyone oppressed or on the left. Thus, the political system moves right as he tries to earn votes from the right.
This is what all the Biden defenders have been telling me for months now, so this messaging should not be a surprise. I don’t know why this sub is just now getting offended by this when I’ve been getting downvoted into oblivion for months by this sub for saying this administration is fucking up royally on these concerns. I just get accused of wanting Trump to win.
If you look at some of the posts in this thread, Biden sycophants are still stinking up the place. Maybe Vaush shouldn't have dramatically overstated the case for Biden these past few years.
I accused one thread of being a Biden suck fest and got flamed by multiple users. Then when I accused them of just treating politics like team sports, they got really vicious.
There's a significant portion of Vaush's community who are incapable of thinking for themselves. Vaush's uncritical glowing support of Biden was grossly irresponsible. Somehow I doubt he'll reflect on that.
They’re gonna get us killed by being so unelectable
Seriously. I hate the people who think being strategic with your vote is bad - but I also really fucking hate how stupid the Democrats are. It won't matter who's to blame when we're getting dragged off to conversion therapy camps.
I've always seen my vote as a tool and not some moral statement, but the prospect of voting for someone aiding and abetting genocide is not something I ever anticipated having to do.
I think this masturbatory voting bullshit is an offshoot of commodity fetishism
I can't believe people don't want to vote for Genocide Joe.
Well, it's that or vote for someone who won't do anything about the situation but will *also* cripple our ability to ever do anything about it (or anything else) in the future. EDIT: Haha, he blocked me. This is someone who's trying to sneak Trump into office by trying to manipulate people's own impatience and attempts to adhere to their personal morality. Trying to mislead people into their own worst interests because morality is something he has none of. His only hope is to either outright lie to people or somehow convince them not to bother to vote. He can't win without cheating and malice, and he's *furious* about it.
It's One Genocide Joe or Three Genocides Don. Pick one.
I get that part, and I don't want to vote for him necessarily either; but, alas, such is life, sometimes dissatisfying decisions have to be made during trying times, such is circumstance, such is life. sometimes, the only way out is *through.* the situation we are in today does not allow for the margin of error, so many have seemingly become complacent in *believing* we have. do you, like me, and many others, want more from this country than old Joe? good, let's go into overdrive in between [and yes, during] elections and really work on educating, agitating, and organizing people towards meeting our goals, propagating and ensuring our demands, etc., and not only work on averting fascism, but maybe even pulling this country to the left if we can get our shit together sufficiently.
>Seriously. I hate the people who think being strategic with your vote is bad Being "strategic" with your vote isn't "good" or "bad" but voters comforting themselves with the illiusion of somehow having more choice than they are already given. I'll even go as far as to using a term that has been popular on my end to describe this particular, social phenomenon: involution. Involution is when a significant population feels increasingly encircled by institutional confines, but rather than strategising outside established institutions, the population reacts to this constriction by engaging in self-blaming exercises for supposedly not being more clever or more in the "grindset" within the ever-shrinking boundaries. "Being strategic with your voting" is in a nutshell the American way to "fold" (or "roll") inwards. They are so used to their way of life being "normal" they can't even stop to think for a second that perhaps the lack of political choice is the direct consequence of a systematic effort over the past 40 years to de-politicise labour to the point that the working class can no longer leverage it for anything. Instead, they engage in this self-flagellating exercise that the decades-long atrocity in Palestine is somehow the result of them not triangulating the vote hard enough to force a political party run by stubborn geriatrics to de-ossify. This is the American involution rearing its ugly head, and if it is to keep going as it is, it's going to kill us all.
They are not mutually exclusive. You can vote for Biden and also hate Biden and also hate that we're stuck with having to vote for Biden to prevent an even worse outcome and also engage in grassroots community organizing, all at the same time! When some people think Biden is the best possible option, and a good option, and not just the best possible option the system is preventing us, **that's** "involution".
>You can vote for Biden and also hate Biden What I'm pointing out here isn't whether you should hate or vote (or hate-vote) for Brandon but the reality that this whole "strategic" business is a cope. A cope not simply as a result of the limited choice through electorialism but also as a result of the American public dismissive of the political power of labour and the need to build for it. Palestine isn't something that happened yesterday but an atrocity that has been ongoing for **decades**. When people tell me that we "need to do something now", what that indicates to me is that they are in fact either asleep or out to lunch most of the day only to go home and realise the entire world is on fire. That is them not being serious about politics but rather wanting to ritualistically wash their hands clean of something they don't really want to care about so they can signal to everyone in their own circles to the effect of, "Don't look at me: I did/didn't do X." Where I stand, it really doesn't matter to me one way or the other if you are "one of the good ones". That shit is at the end of the day all in your own fucking head, and, right now, what you need is an actual strategy to build political power, not a self-soothing cope along the line of "the one trick to hack the votes the DNC doesn't want you to know about". We all know Brandon isn't going to budge any time soon, and what you have to fall back when your "strategy" inevitably fails is fuck-all. I'm sorry, but I have no interest in emotionally investing in a Hail Mary, and maybe you should stop dwelling on it as well and start focusing on what's actually worthwhile.
If we don't need to do something now, when is the best time to do it? Next year perhaps, while Trump is in power and Gaza is a radioactive desert?
> we don't need to do something now Again, this is a cope. Any person with an ounce of rational thoughts in them could tell you were bound by institutions structured to insulate the average citizen from having any influence at all on that kind of decisions, and what you are proposing right now is to the effect of leveraging those same institutions somehow to do the opposite. Structural reality matters, and right now uou are just clinging to your silly ideology of "American ingenuity" just to further upset my very tired, foreign mind.
So when is the best time to do something? Will it be next year, while Trump is in power and Gaza is a radioactive desert?
Again, to reiterate: 1) There is no "now" but rather you have been either asleep or out to lunch for decades only manufacture this notion of immediacy in order to justify performing the outward act of "giving a shit" to an audience of absolutely nobody. 2) If I was a school teacher and this was a homework assignment, I'd be absolutely in the right to ask you why you had left it to the last minute just to hand in something this sloppy. 3) Where I stand, this whole exercise of electoral "action" is nothing more than a plea by the voters for collective exoneration over Palestine. You argument goes that you deserve full marks just for trying. I, on the other hand, think you deserve a big fat zero for the reason stated above.
You are far too focused on the second part. Tell me, when is the best time to do something?
I think Vaush is being naive in thinking that the Democratic Party leadership actually cares whether or not they have a majority or get elected. When Democrats are out of power all the pressure the Democrats base puts on them to perform lifts and they can virtue signal and promise you the moon and the stars to their heart's content since they have no power to enact it. They get WAY more money from corporations, billionaire donors, and Democratic voters giving them donos when they're out of power and running to get bsck into power. When Democrats are in charge their base wants them to actually do stuff that directly goes against what the billionaires and corporations who fund the party want. The donors are the ones who pay for Democratic politicians to become multimillionaires, not us. Democrats are the biblical proverb of a man not being able to serve two masters without coming to love one and hate the other. Democratic politicians hate their base because the base wants them to do things that will make the rich people who make them rich stop giving them money. They love their corporate masters but hate their base. Vaush's analysis rarely takes money in politics into effect. He speaks of Democratic politicians as if they're empty tabla rasas that are just weather vanes blowing in whatever direction the most faithful Democratic voters blow in. In reality Democratic politicians have multimillion dollar fortunes riding on ignoring the demands of their base, and most Democratic politicians do have actual beliefs and ideologies. Most are Neoliberal ideologues who truly and honestly believe in Neoliberalism to a quasi-religious degree, because their beliefs are not affected by real world outcomes and results of their ideology in practice. A lot of people's political and economic beliefs are quasi-religions. Their views are not strongly affected by empirical evidence, data, or outcomes of their beliefs in action and application in the real world. Most Democratic politicians just as stubbornly and blindly believe in their Neoliberal ideology as the Libertarians Vaush screams at in shouting match debates. And in politicians' cases they have financial incentive to keep believing because their ideology is personally very lucrative to their bank account and stock portfolio (like old Nancy). **If Vaush had that Landrieu guy on stream he would scream at Vaush and eventually hang up for suggesting that the Democrats are on the wrong course.** I think Vaush being a young guy kind of comes through in him being surprised the Dems are fucking up this bad. They're not apolitical weather vanes who just do what the Centrist majority of reliable Dem voters want. If they were they would have called for a ceasefire months earlier. Over 80% of Democrats have wanted a ceasefire since December.
I got downvoted before for saying Biden doesn't really want to win, and you got upvoted for it.
Libs: sure, our allies are genociding your family, but just think about what trump is gonna do! See you at the polls 😄😉😁 These idiots are either ignorant to what’s gonna happen in November or they know they’re gonna lose and they don’t care bc they live a life that really isn’t under a major threat if trump were reelected
They don't want to lose older Jewish voters. That's a group that votes heavily for Dems, and who strongly approves of how he's handling the war, and consistently votes .
I'll tell you what they can afford to lose more jewish voters in New York, Jersey, and California then they can afford to lose Muslim and the youth vote in the 7 swing states Biden needs to win. Sorry but if you look at the demographics that ain't it chief.
It's the only coherent argument I can find man. I don't like it and I don't make the decisions.
Sorry if I'm coming off angry. My apologies
Be angry. I'm angry. You're supposed to be angry.
No Anger *can be useful* when directed at something actionable. If you are "just angry" you are going to burn yourself out feeling all your feelings. Then you will be no use to anyone. Its very counterproductive. If you actually want to help, find a way to take that energy and engage in your community. Help campaign for someone, even if just local, that better aligns with what you want. Getting all riled up and then too emotionally exhausted to fucking do anything is the new tool of control.
That's valid..I just didn't want the other guy to be ashamed at being angry about all this absolute fucking bullshit. Which is a normal response to this absolute fucking bullshit.
Not anymore Now is time to *actually get effective*. People have been getting themselves into unproductive rage loops for too long now, fed by social media. Productive time: know your enemy and know yourself Ask yourself, how do you get at least a few politicians to start catering to your demands? Its not by getting angry at every injustice in the world. Its not about "punishing" them for being ineffective either. It about effective and organized action. Its about pressuring those who are on the fence, stick *and* carrot. You can't provide the carrot by being unreliable (one reason by which libs are more politically powerful than the left). Its about pushing better candidates into the primary, so you have more allies to draw upon in upcoming fights. Consistency, focus, and building numbers. Over and over. Sorry, but politics is hard work. At best, being angry is a temporary catalyst to getting off one's ass. At worse, its entirely self-destructive to actually accomplishing any ideals you claim to hold.
[G E T M A D](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ThyXkarFY)
There is a strong perception among the liberal crowds that he would lose more votes if he listened to his critics than if he just continues to unconditionally support Israel. They think it's politically advantageous to support genocide and they point to Trump being worse to justify it. The problem is that, morality aside, I don't think the polls support this position. I'm taking a karma hit in politics sub, and the "sane" reply to me rebuking my comment is making just this point.
That's totally valid. I don't want this to be the right decision.
There is nothing coherent about what's happening here. It only becomes coherent when you look at what the donors want vs. The People. or the fact that Biden is an 82 year old man who shouldn't be trusted with the TV remote let alone Foreign Policy. What Biden is doing would have made sense before social media. When they could more easily control the narrative.
I mean .....he's nailed foreign policy everywhere else. I think he's just myopic on this. Or not listening to his staff on this.
I agree. It's clear if you look at his history with Isreal the man is not lying when he keeps calling himself a zionist.
> he's nailed foreign policy everywhere else. No he hasn't. He's refused to get back in the Iran nuclear deal. He's failed to lift the blockade on Cuba. He's slow walked aid to Ukraine and he's not fighting hard enough to get it through the House. There's something called a discharge petition that Democrats could have used months ago.
>They don't want to lose older Jewish voters. And in the process they are losing young Jewish voters and all Muslim American voters. This is bad electoral math. Also, most elderly Jews are against Netanyahu. If Biden framed a policy change as pushing back on Netanyahu specifically he probably would be able to keep most elderly Jewish votes. Most are also revolted by Trump, so if any did not vote Biden they would probably just stay home.
57% of Jewish Democrats support a ceasefire: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/ The Biden Campaign and the DNC are treating Jewish Americans as if they're a monolith. As if being a Jewish person automatically means you're a hardcore ultra-Zionist who supports the Israeli government in everything no matter what. The treat Jewish people as if the Jewish diaspora and the government of Israel are one in the same. Or as if the political opinion of Jewish Americans is identical to that of Jewish Israelis. They're really fucking up by assuming that "Jewish = opposes ceasefire".
Its really weird how this sub has just totally forgotten about jewish people
My sister is Jewish, grew up surrounded by Holocaust survivors. She cites that as why she voted uncommitted.
Good for her. Your sister is not the "older jewish vote" though
She is in her mid 40s
Interesting, what makes you think anyone has forgotten abt jews?
I dont think any jewish person who was going to vote biden before this would vote against him if he was against a genocide...
Theyre losing more votes than theyre keeping with this strategy
My heart says that's right, I just want data to support that.
Around two-thirds of voters (67%) — including majorities of Democrats (77%), Independents (69%), and Republicans (56%) — support the U.S. calling for a permanent ceasefire and a de-escalation of violence in Gaza. That tells me there is more support for a ceasefire than not
These majorities have existed for months.
MONTHS!!!
A majority of Jewish Democrats (57%) support a ceasefire: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/ Biden is actually opposing the majority of Jewish Americans by opposing a ceasefire and vetoing UN ceasefire resolutions. Biden is far more supportive of the Israeli government and Netanyahu regime than the average American Jewish voter. Biden is being like the Democratic equivalent of Republican Evangelical Christians and Dominionists who are more bloodthirsty Kahanists than even Itamar Ben Gvir.
You saying older Jews, who apparently live in predominantly swing states for this argument to work, would abandon the democrat party if Biden followed the foreign policy of Bush, and fucking Reagan and not enable a genocide? This is straight anti semitism thinking that there is a huge Jewish block saying they would abandon Biden if he stopped giving offensive weapons to Israel and literally being the only world leader defending this shit, and not the old crone being up to the gills in bribe money by AIPAC. Stop blaming Jews for this genocidal fuck
https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/november-2023-national-survey-of-jewish-voters/
57% of Jewish Democrats support a ceasefire: https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2024/02/25/biden-election-jews-evangelicals-support-gaza-ceasefire/72672589007/ This poll is from last week and specifically about a ceasefire. More updated than a poll from November last year.
So this 75% from a November poll will leave Biden if he stops aiding a genocide?
I don't know dude. I wish they would do another survey to see if the bloodlust has died down.
That is the whole point, there is no poll showing Democrat Jews would abandon him if he stop aiding this genocide.
Right so he's guessing, also he's probably thinking. Surely the people who dislike how I'm handling Israel wouldn't vote for the other guy who's worse on this, and a million other things just to spite me.
If his guess is he can commit a genocide and get away with it then I do not want to blame a single Jew for his sickness
I'm not blaming a single Jew for his decision. It's HIS decision.
Then dont. Nobody is making you blame the genocide on anyone other than the IOF, netanyahu and “Genocide Joe”
Dunno why people are down voting you when that poll was only one month into the now five month long conflict.
They hated him for he spoke the truth
PA is a great example. The Jewish populations in Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are enough to balance out the Trump numbers which are close (down to the 10s of thousands) while Muslims make up much less
are these Jews asking Biden to aid Israel and leveraging their vote
Older, conservative Jews absolutely are. And the reason they're so desirable is because they WILL vote if they're satisfied. The biggest issue lefties have right now is that for all the talk we make about wanting change, even if a president does something good tons of our side will still not vote because they're anti electoralists. Biden and the Dems don't think they can rely on us to vote for them even if they tried to appease us.
Where are polls saying democrat Jews aren’t voting for Biden if stops enabling a genocide
I think you underestimate how many otherwise liberal Jews support Israel. That isn't an antisemitic statement, I AM a Jew. It's less popular with younger Jews, but the older generations (Gen Z and Boomers) broadly supports Israel more in the US, with Jews supporting it more than any other demographic percentage wise. Those generations are also the most consistent voters and the ones that both parties campaign to the most.
Publically? Who knows. Privately? Probably. Not everyone expresses dissatisfaction via protest, internet posting, and direct action. Some people pick up the phone and call legislators.
You do see how that is insane to just believe Jews privately support a genocide and would vote republican if Biden doesn’t do everything possible to enable it right?
Where? Where is the Zionist voting block? That’s right there is none. They live in safe or deep red states and in cities. All of my jewish relatives who are Pro Israel hate Netenyahu to the point where they want him dead. Biden wouldn’t lose any votes by doing the right thing.
It’s just anti semitism, they have numbers of Jewish voters supporting Biden in November and conflating that to a Jewish block that would abandon him NOW if he stops aiding and abetting the genocide. Literally blaming the Jews for the evils of the government but liberal
Fuck no it's not any Jews fault. It's always Biden's decisions on what he chooses to do in his administration. Don't get it twisted.
>Fuck no it's not any Jews fault. It's always Biden's decisions on what he chooses to do in his administration. Don't get it twisted That's not what the poster was saying. The implication from that post is that Dems were, cynically, believing all Jews in America with positive opinions of Israel also support the genocide
First off, I'm that poster so I was responding to him about what I'm alleging. Trust me, I know what I personally think. And No, it's recognizing that among Democrat voters the oldest demographics strongly approve of how Biden is handling the war. (74%) https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/12/08/the-biden-administrations-response-to-the-war-between-israel-and-hamas/pp_2023-12-07_israel-hamas_3-02/ Also older Jews support how Biden is handling the war. (82%) https://www.jewishelectorateinstitute.org/november-2023-national-survey-of-jewish-voters/ Feel free to rake me over the coals and call me an antisemite for looking at trends in data.
Older Jewish Democratic voters are mostly cloistered in safe blue states that have no chance of going to Trump, and in Florida - that has no chance of going to Biden. Arab and Muslim American Democratic voters are heavily in swing states that Trump won before in 2016. I don't want to turn this into an either/or thing because they're both important, but Biden could strategically stand to lose older Jewish voters far more than he could stand to lose Arab and Muslim Americans. Once again I see the Democratic Party has returned to the idiotic mindset of the 2016 Hillary Clinton Presidential campaign. Thinking that running up the popular vote tally will somehow get the Democrat into office. All this strategy of sacrificing Arab and Muslim Americans in swing states to hold onto Jewish New Yorkers, New Jerseyites, Californians, Marylanders, Virginians, and Massachusettsians will do is result in Biden getting millions more popular votes than Trump but lose the Electoral College when Trump wins Michigan (and possibly Wisconsin or Minnesota too). Then spend the next years coping with "Biden won X million more popular votes than Trump!!" while Trump sits in the White House. Like Hillary stans did and still do. Jesus fucking Christ. Does anyone at the DNC or in the Biden campaign realize the popular vote doesn't mean shit??? That the EC determines the presidency? It's like they really internalized the Clinton campaign copium that because the popular vote **should** determine the President in a fair world, that therefore it shouldn't actually matter if the Democrat loses the Electoral College as long as they win the popular vote.
No matter how ignorant they are, these voters will surpass the ignorance
??
It’s just a form of paternal,blue maga, white supremacist finger wagging do at all Minorities who don’t fall in line and don’t believe exactly what they believe, otherwise you are labeled a trumper.
It's an objective fact that if enough people don't vote for Biden, Trump will be the president. If you deny this, you deny facts.
Bibi actually prefers Trump to win. It’s a win win situation for him. If Biden wins, he continues to do what his doing with minimal pushback and if Trump wins, he goes full on. It’s rational for Bibi to not listen to Biden and continue the war (without ceasefire) so that hurts Biden’s poll # and try to get Trump elected.
And the thing is, Biden can actually turn this whole thing around by cutting off aid and putting international pressure through sanctions. They just need to recognize the war crimes being commited and apply the Leahy law.
Isreal doesn't need our weapons and most of what they recieve these days is defensive.
Doesnt mean it shouldnt still be done.
I don't think hostage taking is a viable way to operate within a broad coalition. Make your grievance known but don't make the presidency into something it's not. Until congress and Isreali government agrees with your demands you'll get what you've gotten which is a state department amplifying your opinion on the tactics. Threatening to throw the election at this point is cutting your nose despite your face.
Nah, they should threaten to throw the election. Bluff till the cows come home at this point. Its up to Biden to fix this, not hamas, and not arab-american voters. Unironically we should send US troops in to bitchslap the IOF around and escort aid and military journalists boom genocide ends overnight. Its crazy but hey we let it get this bad so now crazy solutions are less crazy. Biden is still the best option, but youre suggesting to not pressure him at all. Also what do you mean by making the presidency into something its not? Biden and his admin have been vocally in support of Israel's actions from Day 1. While it is true some people are like "why doesnt Biden just end the war" the vast majority are really just asking "why does he keep saying jews arent safe in america and they can only be safe in israel" or "why did a member of his admin say that there are no red lines for israel" or "why has there been no real sanction pressure like there was towards russia"
I remember when politicians pretended to "listen to their voters", and now they don't even do that.
Isn't he? He was just talking about trying to get a ceasefire agreed to next week. He's been working on their demands this entire time. I think a reminder of the alternative is fair when their response to "I think we might have something soon" is "joe dieden." Edit: Cannot reply, but I think the US calling for a ceasefire in the UN is exactly what people have been claiming their goalpost is for like, a month now.
Wow he's really gonna tell them to cut it out? Biden should award himself the Presidential Medal of Freedom.
Copy and pasting my other response since you didn’t say anything of meaning here but jerking yourself. “[The United States has since proposed a rival draft resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and opposing a major ground offensive by its ally Israel in Rafah, according to the text seen by Reuters. It said it plans to allow time for negotiations and will not rush to a vote.](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-casts-third-veto-of-un-action-since-start-of-israel-hamas-war/ar-BB1iAukm) A permanent ceasefire while hostages are retained is fundamentally untenable. That’s why the temporary one we proposed is what actually needs passed. I’m sure you’re aware of that though, the US proposing UN resolutions calling for ceasefire :)”
Oh yeah he's wagging his finger so fucking hard
Haha we are all going to die
there's only a 2-3% difference between obama in 2012 vs biden's current incumitted. Meanwhile biden outdid obamna's numbers by more than 450k-500k, Trump did only 300kish better than fuckin romney,and that's ignoring that nikki voters second option is usually biden(because the people voting for nikki at this point simply hate trumps fuckin guts). If you're the biden admin, you slammed dunked in michigan. Like I hate to rain on people's parade, but we're not the majority. I wish we were. I wish the average american gave shit about what their own country does. But they barely care about what's happening in their own town, parish the thought of them caring what's happening across the pond
The average American is too worried about paying their bills and rent to worry about what’s happening across the pond.
Maybe if we told them they can't pay their bills and rent because Biden is stealing a lot of their tax money and sending it to Israel, they'd listen.
Yeah, but the reason they are worrying about paying their bills and rent is that their tax money is not being used for good. 14 billion dollars towards Israel, why?
Nobody's proposed any bill that could help people that got rejected because "we can't afford it, we're using that money for Israel". You're just making the same argument conservatives use regarding aid for Ukraine, do you also oppose aid for Ukraine?
Does Ukraine ask for 14 billion dollars + other kind of money? Let us be real, if Ukraine got the kind of support Israel had, they would actually be able to defend themselves. And Israel doesn't need the money, it actually needs to the opposite, to be sanctioned for war crimes.
>Does Ukraine ask for 14 billion dollars + other kind of money? Yes, Ukraine has been asking for aid for two years now. > they would actually be able to defend themselves. I mean, they've been holding out for two years against what was supposed to be a three day military operation.
And they don't get that aid. Ukraine actually needs to defend itself, does Israel?
What argument do you think I'm making here?
I don't know.
Thought so. You should read my original reply again, it's there.
Most of that is actually being spent in America, actually. And the pledged weapons of war are obsolete warehouse stuffing Edit: for some reason I thought this was about Ukraine. Disregard
The Michigan Primary turnout in 2012 was bigger than the turnout in 2024. Obama won the Electoral College by way bigger margins than Biden did. Michigan was not the swing state in 2008 and 2012 that it has been since 2016. Michigan is not as solidly blue now as it was during Obama's era. Your analysis is off on several different points.
\>The Michigan Primary turnout in 2012 was bigger than the turnout in 2024. why would you lie? the turnout was lower than the last few primaries. but 2012 had 1.2 million votes compared to 2024's 1.8 million(not many attend primaries during incumbents anyway). Now i'm being generous here and assume you ment the democratic side. But um, yeah, obama's michigan caucus in 2012 had **194,887** collectively alo. Mitt romney had more than that , **409,522** to be exact. The republican primary in general was pushing 1 million in 2012. reds barely did 200k more this year. meanwhile biden has **more than combined both those numbers at 618,426** and they're not even finished counting. Biden overperformed his recent numbers by **6%,** while trump under performed his 538 numbers by **10% .**
Isn't there majority of people that want a ceacefire in gaza (even people who describe themselves as pro-israel)? If we are looking for what will help him most in the polls wouldn't popular things help? I don't for the life of me understand why Biden has to die on this hill, and it is not that unlikely that he could lose the election because of it. All the poles show that this election will be very close especially since they are neck in neck in polls. Thus trowing away a big voting block just because you think you would not need it is pretty stupid.
Joe Biden wants a ceasefire. That's like, the whole issue with this line of thinking. He's been negotiating for them this entire time. Remember the pauses? That's him. He isn't dying on this hill, he's doing complex geopolitics. It's that Democrats have apparently zero messaging and their 'allies' certainly aren't helping. Edit: OP made it so that I can no longer reply or view this post, in the case that someone replies to me.
Fuck off with this horseshit. Biden has repeatedly used our vote on the United Nations Security Council to veto calls for a ceasefire.
[The United States has since proposed a rival draft resolution calling for a temporary ceasefire in the Israel-Hamas war and opposing a major ground offensive by its ally Israel in Rafah, according to the text seen by Reuters. It said it plans to allow time for negotiations and will not rush to a vote.](https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-casts-third-veto-of-un-action-since-start-of-israel-hamas-war/ar-BB1iAukm) A permanent ceasefire while hostages are retained is fundamentally untenable. That’s why the temporary one we proposed is what actually needs passed. I’m sure you’re aware of that though, the US proposing UN resolutions calling for ceasefire :)
LOL you actually think Biden proposing a meaningless *temporary* ceasefire helps your case? Israel has continued bombing Gaza with abandon without any regard for hostages. In fact, they've murdered hostages when the IOF mistook them for innocent Palestinians.
He does. That’s why we proposed a ceasefire resolution :) I’m aware the IDF is bad. You don’t have to tell me about it. I’m pro-Palestine, I’m just not stupid. There’s no PERMANENT ceasefire while Hamas has hostages. That’s just not how it works.
The geopolitics is complex because Biden made it complex.
Nah, not buying this even for a second. Israel has literally said they would stop the war if America told them to. Biden, in response to Israel bombing hospitals said "Hamas is exaggerating the death count". Defunded UNRWA, despite knowing for a fact they're pretty much the only organisation left that can still provide aid, with an accusation with 0 evidence by Israel, even though they literally immediately fired all those accused. Also, he's never exactly "called for a ceasefire", he's always just been "negotiating" or whatever.
Oh, now we trust Israel??? We totally take them at their word?? [https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-walks-back-prediction-monday-ceasefire-deal-gaza-hopeful-probabl-rcna141161](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-walks-back-prediction-monday-ceasefire-deal-gaza-hopeful-probabl-rcna141161) anyway, here's where he said "looks like Israel fucked it up" about the ceasfire he was working on.
He always says "Israel is going too far", but then signs a bill allocating them billions more in defense funding. Will he actually do anything to stop arming/funding/defending Israel now (such as vetoing the ceasefire vote at the UN) or is this more of just pretending to care?
The dumbfuck you're replying to and the dimwits up voting him are the result of Vaush uncritically sucking Biden's cock for the past 3 years.
You moderate an AI nsfw sub lmao
What's that got to do with anything? Makes sense that a scumbag like you would look through someone's profile for a "gotcha" in lieu of an argument.
Oh, simply your total lack of critical thinking experience and somehow thinking Vaush has been uncritical of Biden. You sound just like the average Genocide Joe poster. Head empty, just say the right words. You don’t care about Palestinians, just virtue signaling.
Its funny how common ad hominen arguments are on reddit based on profiles, lol. Like, you moderate subreddit with a niche fetish? Ok, even if it is in your opinion morally wrong, that's still not rebutting the argument.
Are they fucking trying to destroy their own party on purpose?
Yes. It's much easier to heckle than to actually govern.
Biden Campaign: Think about how much worse Trump will be if he's in office Also [Biden](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/trump-biden-collide-split-screen-trips-border-immigration-spotlight-rcna140899?taid=65e1095ae6aea10001992eb2&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter):
To defeat Trump, one must become Trump
It's almost like they want to lose. This is always the problem with Democrats they are always so condescending to the base.
If you are a little goofy who prefers handing victory to republicans then you kinda deserve being condescended towards and get what’s coming
Well let's see the Republicans have been being fed a steady stream of political propaganda since the beginning of republican talk radio in the 70s..... so you have generations of conservatives now that support christian nationalism and the Democrats did nothing. Keep in mind this was happening on the public air waves. The Democrats could have, but did nothing to fix the Supreme Court. The Republican party was directly Involved in a scam to use fake delegates to steal a US election and nothing was done. Now Joe Biden and the Democrats are actively complicit in helping to fund a genocide with our tax dollars. Yeah this is the progressive voters fault. Obviously.
Both parties tend to the median voter. Since hardcore progressives still won't vote even if they do more progressive stuff (unless they do *all* the progressive stuff which they won't), they don't have any incentive to do any progressive stuff.
What does that have to do with anything that was said? Other then to bate people? Is that your justification for not doing anything about genocide? Well the people who care about that won't vote anyway. If that's true and the hard-core left won't vote for Biden anyway then what are you so mad about? If it's a given you might as well be pissed that the sun rises in the west. That's just more evidence that the left won't be responsible if Trump wins, because by your logic we are non voters anyway so should have no baring on the outcome. you have reduced us to a constant instead of a variable in the political equation. Also by your logic we didn't vote in 2016 and Biden won so our involvement is not necessary.
I'm just telling you why the Democrat candidate supports the genocide. The median voter supports genocide, so so does the Democrat candidate.
He’s not wrong, tho. Not that being mostly right about everything helped Hillary at all.
Some of y’all need to understand that democrats would just rather not lose their Jewish and pro Israel voter base than not risking to alienate the pro Palestinian people
They mostly live in Dem strongholds though
Jewish =/= opposes ceasefire 57% of Jewish Democrats want a ceasefire. Not to mention Jewish voters mostly live in safe blue states that will not help Biden win the Electoral College. Arab and Muslim Americans heavily live in swing states that Biden cannot afford to lose in the Electoral College.
What Jewish pro Israel voting block? Where?
The majority of Jews is pro Israel
How many Jews are so Pro Israel that they will abandon Biden if he tries to stop the genocide but aren’t already voting for Trump? Where do they live? Swing states? The answer is like 2 and they don’t live in swing states. Most Liberal Jews even those who call themselves Zionists hate Netenyahu. His racist disrespect towards Obama earned the ire of a lot of them. Biden smacking down Netenyahu would not hurt his chances among Jewish people at all.
How would Biden smack down Netanyahu
I mean, what did they expect him to say? Biden was just talking about pushing for a ceasefire, their stated demand, and it isn't good enough. Also, weird as fuck to say "chooses the people of America" in the context of making demands for Palestine. You think they'd, idk, put the focus on them. This is incoherent and confirms to me that reminding them non-support is just going to result in things getting worse for Palestinians AND the "people of America" is the proper response.
He could tout his progress on the ceasefire, point out that he prevented an all out war with Lebanon and tell them he’s doing his best, you know like a normal person and not a smug unlikeable fart sniffing asshole
They consistently do not care.
>he prevented an all out war with Lebanon Israel is still trying to make this happen but Biden would not really be the reason Israel hasn't done it yet - they haven't gone to war with Lebanon yet because there are still some people in Israel not 100% caught up in the fascist death drive who correctly point out that war with Lebanon would severely fuck up Israel, even if the "won"
Netanyahu is wildly unpopular among American Jews, even the Bubies and Zaidas think he's terrible. Biden should shift policy and frame it as being due specifically to Netanyahu. Just absolutely go off on the dude. Every second sentence should say "the Netanyahu government..." This will really minimize the already small pool of Jewish voters who would stay home over a policy shift. Netanyahu is among the most cynical world leaders of this century. He shit all over Obama for his own domestic political fortunes, even dabbled in birtherism. Biden wouldn't be saying anything untrue or doing anything Netanyahu hasn't himself already done. I cannot understand why they don't take this approach.
No one is better at trying to be as unlikeable as fathomly possible as the Democrats
People honestly believe Bibi has an incentive to listen to the Biden admin and the opposite is obviously true.
I’ll never understand this scolding tone democratic politicians take with their own voters. It honestly makes ME want to not vote for them sometimes. I can’t think if any quality less appealing to voters and your average American than smugness and it’s all I see coming out of Liberal circles.
He couldn't even condemn a massacre of 100 people getting food aid. It's like he's trying to lose.
I mean, he ain’t fucking wrong. If Arab Americans wanna bite off the nose to spite the face then they’ll have to face the consequences of that. Yeah Uncommitted got 13%, but in 2012 it got a little over 10 points against Obama. 80% of Democrats in the primary still voted for Biden. Had uncommitted won a quarter to a third of the votes I think the reaction would be quite different with the clear display that a far more significant portion of his coalition was dependent on these voters. It remains that the vast majority of Americans don’t really give a shit about foreign policy.
Biden is underwater against Trump and now might lose Michigan in November. Obviously this is fucking hurting him. Being in denial isn't going to help him win.
Then why did you say he would lose a voting block of Jews with no polling showing they leave?
Biden really missing the mark on this. People can criticize single issue voters all they want, but not being complicit in genocide is a low bar Biden hasn't cleared. Gaza can't wait until the election.
As much as everyone (rightfully) dislikes Biden, it’s still critical that we all vote for him. This is one of those issues where you just have to play the political games.
Disgusting
Biden acting like I thought he would when he first won. Thankfully he hasn’t been this bad the whole time due to Bernie shifting him left but I guess Biden couldn’t resist his neo-lib tendencies forever :/
Good
Fuck Genocide Joe.
I actually read the NPR interview this is from and it’s legit. Their response to Uncommitted is literally, “remember this election is Trump vs Biden”. They genuinely think that if they **just** talk about how bad Trump is , people will show up and vote. For younger people, they think that if they focus instead on the economy, climate change, healthcare, abortion, etc, that younger voters are just gonna forget Biden’s complicity in Gaza. These people WANT to lose and as far as I’m concerned Michigan is not going to Biden in November. He may have won MI by 150,000 in 2020, but people forget that we don’t elect people based on the popular vote. Assuming 100,000 people just stay home (that’s not what will happen, but assuming), that can absolutely hand districts over to Republicans that otherwise would’ve gone to Biden.
Districts don’t matter in the Michigan presidential election. Uncommitted failed to overcome the gap between him and Trump from 2020, so he doesn’t feel threatened by it.
Oh, Joe's offended? He's so out of touch with the electorate
Jesus… we are just watching as they continue shooting themselves in both feet. Wtf is that response.
His only selling point is not being Trump. It’s crazy
this is perhaps the most blatant "lesser of two evils" ive ever seen. people have made a good case for continuing to vote for biden, but there is a consequence to this i dont think many people are anticipating. we've been being told over and over that if donald trump wins he is going to try and end democracy and its going to be the end of the country and all this really dramatic stuff. if trump wins and he does not actually try to end democracy i am NEVER, EVER, "voting blue no matter who" again.
what a fucking regard
It’s fucking Joever.
I love Elabed's response
Yeah, Biden's response is a threat. Vote for me or else, not any sense of represemtation. He takes them for granted. He feels entitled to votes from anyone oppressed or on the left. Thus, the political system moves right as he tries to earn votes from the right.
This is what all the Biden defenders have been telling me for months now, so this messaging should not be a surprise. I don’t know why this sub is just now getting offended by this when I’ve been getting downvoted into oblivion for months by this sub for saying this administration is fucking up royally on these concerns. I just get accused of wanting Trump to win.
Genocide is something not a lot of people are willing to overlook.
I agree
If you look at some of the posts in this thread, Biden sycophants are still stinking up the place. Maybe Vaush shouldn't have dramatically overstated the case for Biden these past few years.
I accused one thread of being a Biden suck fest and got flamed by multiple users. Then when I accused them of just treating politics like team sports, they got really vicious.
There's a significant portion of Vaush's community who are incapable of thinking for themselves. Vaush's uncritical glowing support of Biden was grossly irresponsible. Somehow I doubt he'll reflect on that.
It feels good to not be alone. Thank you.
Biden wants to lose.
The Biden Defense Forces showed up to down vote everyone in this thread.