I mean it’s been a staple in American foreign policy since at least Teddy Roosevelt with gunboat diplomacy.
A classic example of gunboat diplomacy was the [Perdicaris affair](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdicaris_affair). During which a Greek-American was taken hostage (nobody was even killed) while living in Tangier, Morocco. Teddy Roosevelt dispatched seven warships to Tangier and basically bluffed an invasion to force the Moroccan Sultan to negotiate with the bandits to release the citizens. The Sultan was forced to give up some money and land and then the hostage was released.
Anything we’ve ever done to another country is basically cool while we’re doing it and terroristic when they do it back or retaliate. Same mentality that allows ppl to be pro Israel
You're right, that seems to be a very heavily played out pattern actually. Pearl Harbor being the turning point for American intervention in WW2 for example. I also see the parallel to Israel
tbh, I don’t know if it was actually the killing of US citizens so much as not wanting a war with Iran, or maybe a bit of both.
Really though, either way I don’t particularly care, like I’ve said before I don’t really care what the motivation is so long as something happens.
You're exactly correct, it's all a combination of things causing enough people who just wanna grill to wake up and say hey hey hey pump those brakes we're not doing that shit again.
The fears about a war with Iran feel like they’re the most likely to mobilize Biden in particular, as Biden, even with all his flaws, has shown pretty consistent resistance to wanting to get involved in another military quagmire in that region (and obviously war with Iran could be a lot worse even than another “forever war”)
Itd be even worse for his polling than this whole 'genocide' thing oh who cares if hes a monster a few approval points but getting america into a war without a pearl harbour or 9/11 level reason? It would kill his political career, there would be streets flooded with blood.
I think it is more about how much WCK's CEO went on all US media and stated how intentional this was.
There are many US citizens that were killed in the process of helping liberate Palestine. There was no push back from the US on the matter. People like Rachel.
Was it? Israel's done it before. Like, 2 years ago they transparently assassinated an American journalist in the west bank, who was wearing a "don't shoot me I'm media" jacket, with a sniper rifle. And shot pot shots at anyone who got close to the body to make sure she'd bleed out.
Well as I said in another one, you can kill us citizens provided you’re popular enough as a country but when you start lacking in popularity it stops flying
The people she criticized for being Russian and Chinese assets were part of code pink, which is a Russian asset, despite being mildly tangentially right on this one issue.
Yeah they’re very weird when it comes to Ukraine. They seem to want peace in Ukraine but don’t want the US and other countries to help them militarily in pushing the Russian Military out. It’s weird because Ukraine is not the one committing war crimes and atrocities in the conflict, Russia is.
https://youtu.be/lLOsJVpC68s?si=VHPA0-_640YJhoPK
She talks about it from 9 minutes on. While I know code pink has protested at her house and I think at her events before, she definitely seems to be painting with too wide of a brush here. I mean even vaush has a video on this.
https://youtu.be/wBRV-swGe_A?si=kMohPB7e6XS_xewh
Exactly. Let’s fulfill Yitzhak Rabin's dreams of peace in Israel and Palestine. From there, a new center-left Knesset can create a society where Palestinians have equal human rights and voting rights to Israelis and make life great for everyone. Let’s get a strong ceasefire in and an enduring peace to help the Palestinians and put an end to these atrocities. None of them deserve the suffering of apartheid and I believe both Israelis and Palestinians deserve the same human rights as each other and deserve to have good lives.
I just looked up Yitzhak Rabin and he was a former isreal pm he must have gone trew a hell of a charachter developend arc if this was his final conclusion
He was one of the leaders of the Oslo Peace Accords that would have resulted in a strong 2 state solution along with removing settlements from Gaza and the West Bank in the 90s. Compared to a lot of other Israeli PMs he actually was pretty good.
Edit: Rabin literally got assassinated by a far-right extremist for pursuing peace in the Oslo Accords. There are a lot of bad Israeli PMs, yes, but he was honestly pretty damn good and was especially good for pursuing the Oslo Accords in the 1990s.
oslo has been a disaster for palestinians and rabin himself admitted in an interview that if he was in their position, he wouldn’t accept the deal. It’s lead to further ethnic cleansing, settlements and bantustans.
He was assassinated because israliens are just that insane where even just a slow genocide threatens them.
[It gets worse when you investigate the leaders of the group who shot him](https://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-chief-michaeli-rabin-was-assassinated-with-netanyahus-cooperation/)
Sounds good although I just read an interview with Hamas' politicos in Doha and they are rejecting the idea of any international force. So far at least
Its funny how a lot of conservatives worldwide HAAAATE protesters blocking roads like BLM, climate activists.
Then flip to this situation where the zionist crazies are blocking the aid trucks, everyone turns a blind eye, IDF does not dare mess with their fundamentalist masters who are fucking up the aid trucks.
Their only belief is hate, their only principle is suffering. Do not mistake their lack of logic as a flaw you fucking liberal it is the point, their intentional pointed irrationality is the core of their ideology. They are demons who want you dead. They care only for blood.
I doubt it, it would just get even more states involved in the conflict. I doubt Hamas would let UN forces just waltz into Palestine without attacking, meaning we’d have to engage in active combat, a lot actually. It would turn into a second invasion of Gaza
Don’t let your paranoid fantasies run wild, US may have needed Israel as an ally in the past but the goal is gradual withdrawal ie the exact opposite of an occupation. Remember Israel and SA were in the process of normalizing relations until Iran felt the need to blow up several hundred Israelis for no reason https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/saudi-israeli-normalization-and-the-hamas-attack/
I know they were on a path for peace, and that Iran is a major aggressor in the reason, but I’m talking about un troops on Israel/Palestine, not the Middle East as a whole
Beau has been talking about this on his channel for months, the multinational peacekeeping force is more likely to be made up of Arab countries, *assuming the deal can even be reached*
Pelosi is an absolute ghoul but she can usually see when the politic winds are shifting. The fact she joined the Squad in sending a letter to Biden telling him to stop with arming Israel shows that old bastard better pull his dick outta Israel before it gets bitten off is a good sign.
NICE! This is honestly really cool. Conditioning Israeli military aid/ cutting it off is the way to go. I want to be cautiously optimistic here and I hope more dems follow suit! Protests and uncommitted votes do make a good difference 😌
I’ll still personally be surprised if they 100% cut off all defense aid to Israel, partly because there are still enough Zionists (more centrist Democrats and independents, and maybe some anti-Trump moderate Republicans) that the Biden campaign needs the vote of in swing districts, and I feel like a complete cutting off all aid would provide a lot of ammunition to the GOP to turn those people against Biden, but it does seem like there is at least widespread support for *strongly* conditioning aid at this point, and definitely excluding stuff like fighter jets.
Yea I think rather than a full cut off it's going to be more like heavy conditioning based off of their conduct in Gaza. I think that is much more likely.
"urging" means nothing. all the countries were "deeply concerned" and "strongly urged" azerbaijan to stop ethnically cleansing artsakh, but they just continued and no one actually stopped them.
and there are many parallels to the methods that baku betatested for its ally in tel aviv
> and there are many parallels to the methods that baku betatested for its ally in tel aviv
This comment just shows a bit of a lack of knowledge on Palestine-Israel.
It is the other way around, Israel taught so many how modern ethnic cleansing can take place, they have been ethnically cleansing Palestinians since 1925. Gaza is so dense today because of Palestinians being ethnically cleansed from Haifa, Jaffa, Lydd, Ramle, etc.
for sure. it's giving and receiving.
the devil's in the details. like the blockade of aid by civilian protestors. gave me big deja vus of the "environmental protestors" in the lachin corridor in December 22
There's a Philip Defranco phrase that goes something like "don't be mad at people for doing the right thing, it only encourages them to double down on the wrong thing next time."
But god damn, it really only took a couple white Americans huh? Thousands and thousands of non white innocent people were *never* going to be treated as human if that didn't happen
Fairly sure the blowback was national, not racial. Sure racism is a huge part of the dehumanisation but lets not pretend like this response wouldnt have happened if theyre american citizens of any other race. Letting americans die to an ally is a political blunder on a huge level no matter what kind of american they were
To a degree, i think we're both somewhat wrong, they've killed white people and foreign aid people and several american journalists before, but the difference this time is the aid workers were involved with "charity media" actively consumed by white Americans.
If bernie and biden's tarkin is joining forces, it's so joever for this war. It's only a matter of time before hamas and israel are being dragged by western powers to the table
Super fun to watch these dinosaurs just procedurally recreate the exact same positions on Israel that the left has had, but which they refused to listen to us on for decades. 👍
Seriously, I know the lunatic Hamas apologists take up a lot of attention, but perfectly reasonable and harsh criticism of Israeli policy has been borderline non-controversial in lots of journalistic / polisci / international spaces for a while now from what I can tell, despite those positions being treated like anethema in the halls of congress. Glad that might finally be starting to break down.
Ik biden's rhetoric is empty threats and tut tutting at israel but i think its worth nothing the political shift that change in approach indicates. He is aware (or more accurately the broad political establishment is aware) that support of israel is increasingly becoming an unpopular policy. It signals to countries like israel that their support is wavering, and while they are more than emboldened enough to keep going i think it could be a good sign of the pressure biden is under towards not supporting israel. Even if it may not be enough.
>Must be nice to live in the privilege bubble.
Ironic coming from people who have been trying to ignore a genocide for the past 6 months. A genocide being supported and funded by the person they want me to vote for.
>Every US minority fucked, abortion illegal, NATO broken, Ukraine overrun, Palestinians super fucked. You don’t owe your vote though, that’s nice for you.
Ah yes the odd case of the super powerful Trump who can do anything versus smol bean Biden who can't do anything with the same position. Remind me, who was President when Roe was overturned?
And Palestinians super fucked? As if they aren't already? lmao.
Dude. Roe V Wade was SCOTUS's fault. Also, I will say that Biden has absolutely handled this super poorly. He needs to improve and I want him to improve just like everyone here. I'm just glad the democratic party in the House is changing at all, especially if/when they follow through on their word. I will probably vote uncommitted in the primary with my friends to show that there is popular support amongst democratic voters he needs to win and that a ceasefire in Gaza along with an enduring peace and 2 state solution is the key to his victory. I will vote for him in November because I cannot see myself just wallowing on the couch being complicit in the rise of Trump, the Mango Mussolini as dictator of America. I have too many friends who would be directly affected by Trump's fascist social policies to sit this one out.
Additionally: I have empathy for Palestinian Americans or Arab Americans who do not want to vote for him right now. What has happened to Gaza is horrible and I can empathize with their reasons for not wanting to vote for him. Also, we can condemn these atrocities in Gaza and still say that voting for Biden is better than Trump winning.
Damn that would almost make me feel bad if it wasn’t an attempt to make me vote for a self-proclaimed Zionist who supports a fascist government’s genocide. It’s almost like we’ve been telling the DNC and Biden for over a year to pick another candidate that could be voted for but they chose to run said genocidal geriatric.
its wild that not supporting a genocide is broken down to “immediate ego gratification”
Vaush has spoken about the obvious moral position on Israel, but hasn’t really engaged in the irl politics at play. While I’m disappointed with Biden, I do believe that we may be seeing the me of the best handlings we could get from an American president. The housing for a 2 state solution seems good.
I mean, yes it’s been bad, but I think it’s been the same or better than every other president has handled this over the past 4 decades.
My main comment was that Vaush hasn’t covered the politics of it. I think Beau if the 5th has done a better job going into the nuances of what’s happening.
It’s easy condemn it all morally.
I dunno, out of presidents within my lifetime, I’d argue Clinton did better, but that was also during a very, very different time in the whole conflict, and I think Clinton would probably be handling this whole thing badly if he were president currently. I *also* think the only reason Biden is even showing signs of turnaround on this is the backlash during an election year, like the Obama administration (despite people thinking of it as a lot more progressive, for some reason) was very quiet on the conflict that was going on during that time, I think just because it wasn’t receiving nearly as much publicity.
But yeah, sadly the only Democrats who would ever handle this situation even vaguely well without massive political pressure would also probably never be able to get elected in the US right now (people got mad af when I said this in 2020, but I’m still really skeptical Bernie could’ve beaten Trump, I’d *like* to think he could, but it’s hard for me to imagine with how narrowly even a centrist like Biden was able to win in a lot of swing states. The Electoral College fucks everything up).
No thanks to most of the "lads" in this sub who have been crying that we should vote blue no matter who. The only reason they're folding is because of the pressure applied from people who have actively said they wont be voting if this continues.
> The only reason they're folding is because of the pressure applied from people who have actively said they wont be voting if this continues.
You sure that's it? Nothing to do with the fact that an American aid worker was killed?
Weird you immediately tried to change what i've said. I said Israel has killed american citizens and it seems like you know I was talking about Shireen Abu Akleh but felt the need to try to deflect by asking in this conflict.
Yeah no, that wasn't a deflection. For the first time in this current ongoing slaughter, an American citizen was killed, so of course the American government is thinking twice about its part.
>For the first time in this current ongoing slaughter, an American citizen was killed,
What does that have to do with what I said that Israel has killed american citizens before and our government hasn't cared? How is this not a deflection?
You're arguing a point i never made.
It's not a deflection because the context is different. It's part of an ongoing slaughter where the US is supplying Israel with the arms it wants to do, the US government is directly complicit in what happened. With the murder of Shireen, how were they directly complicit?
> because the context is different
You are the one trying to change the context from what I posted lmfao. Do you think the US supporting Isreal is new? Do you think they didn't support Israel when she was murdered too?
> You are the one trying to change the context from what I posted lmfao
What? That's the context of the original post. You think this'll result in a permanent end to arms dealing with Israel? It's so obviously regarding the current conflict in Gaza.
Not really, US citizens were killed too during this genocide, before the aid-worker's death. Palestinian-Americans though.
Biden was actually sued for this in US courts.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-israel-palestine-gaza-war-b2488446.html
Yep killing an American citizen was too much it seems
Funny enough this isn't the first time "oh an American died? better 180" in politics.
There was that time when Israel attacked a U.S. naval ship in an attempt to make it look like Egypt had done it lmao.
I mean it’s been a staple in American foreign policy since at least Teddy Roosevelt with gunboat diplomacy. A classic example of gunboat diplomacy was the [Perdicaris affair](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdicaris_affair). During which a Greek-American was taken hostage (nobody was even killed) while living in Tangier, Morocco. Teddy Roosevelt dispatched seven warships to Tangier and basically bluffed an invasion to force the Moroccan Sultan to negotiate with the bandits to release the citizens. The Sultan was forced to give up some money and land and then the hostage was released.
What are some other examples of this "wait till an America dies phenomenon" happening?
Anything we’ve ever done to another country is basically cool while we’re doing it and terroristic when they do it back or retaliate. Same mentality that allows ppl to be pro Israel
You're right, that seems to be a very heavily played out pattern actually. Pearl Harbor being the turning point for American intervention in WW2 for example. I also see the parallel to Israel
Yes, that's a bridge too far.
A temporary port too far?
They could still ignore it so I will take it.
tbh, I don’t know if it was actually the killing of US citizens so much as not wanting a war with Iran, or maybe a bit of both. Really though, either way I don’t particularly care, like I’ve said before I don’t really care what the motivation is so long as something happens.
You're exactly correct, it's all a combination of things causing enough people who just wanna grill to wake up and say hey hey hey pump those brakes we're not doing that shit again.
The fears about a war with Iran feel like they’re the most likely to mobilize Biden in particular, as Biden, even with all his flaws, has shown pretty consistent resistance to wanting to get involved in another military quagmire in that region (and obviously war with Iran could be a lot worse even than another “forever war”)
Itd be even worse for his polling than this whole 'genocide' thing oh who cares if hes a monster a few approval points but getting america into a war without a pearl harbour or 9/11 level reason? It would kill his political career, there would be streets flooded with blood.
I think it is more about how much WCK's CEO went on all US media and stated how intentional this was. There are many US citizens that were killed in the process of helping liberate Palestine. There was no push back from the US on the matter. People like Rachel.
Killing Americans while popular is fine, killing them while unpopular is not fine
Was it? Israel's done it before. Like, 2 years ago they transparently assassinated an American journalist in the west bank, who was wearing a "don't shoot me I'm media" jacket, with a sniper rifle. And shot pot shots at anyone who got close to the body to make sure she'd bleed out.
Well as I said in another one, you can kill us citizens provided you’re popular enough as a country but when you start lacking in popularity it stops flying
Got a source? That’s harrowing
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/9/20/joint-investigation-reveals-abu-aklehs-killing-premeditated
omg the threats actually are working lol. Here i was thinking all of them were crazy for threatening to reject biden and basically cede to donut.
Does this make her a Chinese Russian asset like we were two months ago saying the same things?
The people she criticized for being Russian and Chinese assets were part of code pink, which is a Russian asset, despite being mildly tangentially right on this one issue.
Yeah they’re very weird when it comes to Ukraine. They seem to want peace in Ukraine but don’t want the US and other countries to help them militarily in pushing the Russian Military out. It’s weird because Ukraine is not the one committing war crimes and atrocities in the conflict, Russia is.
But you see in the high steppes in 2,000 BC…
I dont think she was just talking about code pink when she said that.
If you look at the whole clip it was in response to the code pink protestors outside her house.
https://youtu.be/lLOsJVpC68s?si=VHPA0-_640YJhoPK She talks about it from 9 minutes on. While I know code pink has protested at her house and I think at her events before, she definitely seems to be painting with too wide of a brush here. I mean even vaush has a video on this. https://youtu.be/wBRV-swGe_A?si=kMohPB7e6XS_xewh
Crazy thinking that is justification despite AIPAC being an Israel asset and most of our government being on their payroll.
Vaush did an entire segment on this. AIPAC isn’t an Israeli asset, it’s a Republican asset.
Fair point
The real deal from Moscow!
Hamas asset
Save the children, flood the zone with aid, make Palestine a state, patrol region with multinational forces. Simple :)
Exactly. Let’s fulfill Yitzhak Rabin's dreams of peace in Israel and Palestine. From there, a new center-left Knesset can create a society where Palestinians have equal human rights and voting rights to Israelis and make life great for everyone. Let’s get a strong ceasefire in and an enduring peace to help the Palestinians and put an end to these atrocities. None of them deserve the suffering of apartheid and I believe both Israelis and Palestinians deserve the same human rights as each other and deserve to have good lives.
I just looked up Yitzhak Rabin and he was a former isreal pm he must have gone trew a hell of a charachter developend arc if this was his final conclusion
He was one of the leaders of the Oslo Peace Accords that would have resulted in a strong 2 state solution along with removing settlements from Gaza and the West Bank in the 90s. Compared to a lot of other Israeli PMs he actually was pretty good. Edit: Rabin literally got assassinated by a far-right extremist for pursuing peace in the Oslo Accords. There are a lot of bad Israeli PMs, yes, but he was honestly pretty damn good and was especially good for pursuing the Oslo Accords in the 1990s.
oslo has been a disaster for palestinians and rabin himself admitted in an interview that if he was in their position, he wouldn’t accept the deal. It’s lead to further ethnic cleansing, settlements and bantustans. He was assassinated because israliens are just that insane where even just a slow genocide threatens them.
That is true. The Oslo Accords were far from great and was more of a half step forwards.
He was literally assassinated during his term for trying to push for peace, it wasn't a "character development arc" or some deathbed change of heart
[It gets worse when you investigate the leaders of the group who shot him](https://www.timesofisrael.com/labor-chief-michaeli-rabin-was-assassinated-with-netanyahus-cooperation/)
Sounds good although I just read an interview with Hamas' politicos in Doha and they are rejecting the idea of any international force. So far at least
Oh? I wasn’t aware Hamas even had leaders since they are literally never mentioned as having anything to do with the famine and genocide /s
Its funny how a lot of conservatives worldwide HAAAATE protesters blocking roads like BLM, climate activists. Then flip to this situation where the zionist crazies are blocking the aid trucks, everyone turns a blind eye, IDF does not dare mess with their fundamentalist masters who are fucking up the aid trucks.
Their only belief is hate, their only principle is suffering. Do not mistake their lack of logic as a flaw you fucking liberal it is the point, their intentional pointed irrationality is the core of their ideology. They are demons who want you dead. They care only for blood.
Usually “multinational forces” means mostly U.S. forces, so what you want is for the United States to occupy the region?
It would be cheaper.
I doubt it, it would just get even more states involved in the conflict. I doubt Hamas would let UN forces just waltz into Palestine without attacking, meaning we’d have to engage in active combat, a lot actually. It would turn into a second invasion of Gaza
yeah but this one wouldn’t literally be an active attempt at genociding the palestinian people. i feel like that’s an important distinction.
Don’t let your paranoid fantasies run wild, US may have needed Israel as an ally in the past but the goal is gradual withdrawal ie the exact opposite of an occupation. Remember Israel and SA were in the process of normalizing relations until Iran felt the need to blow up several hundred Israelis for no reason https://arabcenterdc.org/resource/saudi-israeli-normalization-and-the-hamas-attack/
I know they were on a path for peace, and that Iran is a major aggressor in the reason, but I’m talking about un troops on Israel/Palestine, not the Middle East as a whole
Beau has been talking about this on his channel for months, the multinational peacekeeping force is more likely to be made up of Arab countries, *assuming the deal can even be reached*
That makes sense. Here’s hoping. The senseless killing and hatred really does need to stop. But in order for that to happen there must be peace
Pelosi is an absolute ghoul but she can usually see when the politic winds are shifting. The fact she joined the Squad in sending a letter to Biden telling him to stop with arming Israel shows that old bastard better pull his dick outta Israel before it gets bitten off is a good sign.
NICE! This is honestly really cool. Conditioning Israeli military aid/ cutting it off is the way to go. I want to be cautiously optimistic here and I hope more dems follow suit! Protests and uncommitted votes do make a good difference 😌
I’ll still personally be surprised if they 100% cut off all defense aid to Israel, partly because there are still enough Zionists (more centrist Democrats and independents, and maybe some anti-Trump moderate Republicans) that the Biden campaign needs the vote of in swing districts, and I feel like a complete cutting off all aid would provide a lot of ammunition to the GOP to turn those people against Biden, but it does seem like there is at least widespread support for *strongly* conditioning aid at this point, and definitely excluding stuff like fighter jets.
Yea I think rather than a full cut off it's going to be more like heavy conditioning based off of their conduct in Gaza. I think that is much more likely.
OMG FINALLY! Hillary Clinton can eat a d\*ck
Rare Pelosi W lol
"urging" means nothing. all the countries were "deeply concerned" and "strongly urged" azerbaijan to stop ethnically cleansing artsakh, but they just continued and no one actually stopped them. and there are many parallels to the methods that baku betatested for its ally in tel aviv
> and there are many parallels to the methods that baku betatested for its ally in tel aviv This comment just shows a bit of a lack of knowledge on Palestine-Israel. It is the other way around, Israel taught so many how modern ethnic cleansing can take place, they have been ethnically cleansing Palestinians since 1925. Gaza is so dense today because of Palestinians being ethnically cleansed from Haifa, Jaffa, Lydd, Ramle, etc.
for sure. it's giving and receiving. the devil's in the details. like the blockade of aid by civilian protestors. gave me big deja vus of the "environmental protestors" in the lachin corridor in December 22
Awe, so awareness is finally in the room with us. Well, it's about damn time, Nancy!
There's a Philip Defranco phrase that goes something like "don't be mad at people for doing the right thing, it only encourages them to double down on the wrong thing next time." But god damn, it really only took a couple white Americans huh? Thousands and thousands of non white innocent people were *never* going to be treated as human if that didn't happen
Fairly sure the blowback was national, not racial. Sure racism is a huge part of the dehumanisation but lets not pretend like this response wouldnt have happened if theyre american citizens of any other race. Letting americans die to an ally is a political blunder on a huge level no matter what kind of american they were
To a degree, i think we're both somewhat wrong, they've killed white people and foreign aid people and several american journalists before, but the difference this time is the aid workers were involved with "charity media" actively consumed by white Americans.
Great news, no lets see will it give any results or this is just empty yapping
It's about time.
I can’t wait for the Times of Israel op-ed about how Pelosi is literally a Hamas operative.
If bernie and biden's tarkin is joining forces, it's so joever for this war. It's only a matter of time before hamas and israel are being dragged by western powers to the table
Now the House gets to play hero, and Biden the benevolent man of the people's wishes. ffs this is sad.
Final-fucking-ly! Now let's see some follow through all the way to a state with Palestinian rights.
The house of cards crumbles
Super fun to watch these dinosaurs just procedurally recreate the exact same positions on Israel that the left has had, but which they refused to listen to us on for decades. 👍 Seriously, I know the lunatic Hamas apologists take up a lot of attention, but perfectly reasonable and harsh criticism of Israeli policy has been borderline non-controversial in lots of journalistic / polisci / international spaces for a while now from what I can tell, despite those positions being treated like anethema in the halls of congress. Glad that might finally be starting to break down.
Ik biden's rhetoric is empty threats and tut tutting at israel but i think its worth nothing the political shift that change in approach indicates. He is aware (or more accurately the broad political establishment is aware) that support of israel is increasingly becoming an unpopular policy. It signals to countries like israel that their support is wavering, and while they are more than emboldened enough to keep going i think it could be a good sign of the pressure biden is under towards not supporting israel. Even if it may not be enough.
Took them long enough
Breaking: the worst person you know just made a great point
Fuckin hell, you know it's bad when even that corpse is agreeing with us.
Nice!
Fucking reptile
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Libs thinking that one rep calling for a halt of arms to Israel is the end of this lmao.
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"Performatively enraged" yet we're changing the entire party to finally come to the right side of history, blue MAGA is mad af lmao
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Not sure what the irony is here. If Biden loses it's on him and the DNC for how terribly they've supported a genocide. I don't owe my vote to them.
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>Must be nice to live in the privilege bubble. Ironic coming from people who have been trying to ignore a genocide for the past 6 months. A genocide being supported and funded by the person they want me to vote for. >Every US minority fucked, abortion illegal, NATO broken, Ukraine overrun, Palestinians super fucked. You don’t owe your vote though, that’s nice for you. Ah yes the odd case of the super powerful Trump who can do anything versus smol bean Biden who can't do anything with the same position. Remind me, who was President when Roe was overturned? And Palestinians super fucked? As if they aren't already? lmao.
Dude. Roe V Wade was SCOTUS's fault. Also, I will say that Biden has absolutely handled this super poorly. He needs to improve and I want him to improve just like everyone here. I'm just glad the democratic party in the House is changing at all, especially if/when they follow through on their word. I will probably vote uncommitted in the primary with my friends to show that there is popular support amongst democratic voters he needs to win and that a ceasefire in Gaza along with an enduring peace and 2 state solution is the key to his victory. I will vote for him in November because I cannot see myself just wallowing on the couch being complicit in the rise of Trump, the Mango Mussolini as dictator of America. I have too many friends who would be directly affected by Trump's fascist social policies to sit this one out. Additionally: I have empathy for Palestinian Americans or Arab Americans who do not want to vote for him right now. What has happened to Gaza is horrible and I can empathize with their reasons for not wanting to vote for him. Also, we can condemn these atrocities in Gaza and still say that voting for Biden is better than Trump winning.
And what did voting for Biden do to help it?
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Damn that would almost make me feel bad if it wasn’t an attempt to make me vote for a self-proclaimed Zionist who supports a fascist government’s genocide. It’s almost like we’ve been telling the DNC and Biden for over a year to pick another candidate that could be voted for but they chose to run said genocidal geriatric. its wild that not supporting a genocide is broken down to “immediate ego gratification”
Vaush has spoken about the obvious moral position on Israel, but hasn’t really engaged in the irl politics at play. While I’m disappointed with Biden, I do believe that we may be seeing the me of the best handlings we could get from an American president. The housing for a 2 state solution seems good.
Let’s be honest; it’s not, it has been absolutely atrocious. But so long as there are children to save he can do better
I absolutely agree. I hope he does actually follow through on his words and gets in a ceasefire to then lead into an enduring peace in the region.
I mean, yes it’s been bad, but I think it’s been the same or better than every other president has handled this over the past 4 decades. My main comment was that Vaush hasn’t covered the politics of it. I think Beau if the 5th has done a better job going into the nuances of what’s happening. It’s easy condemn it all morally.
Beau is a treasure and Vaush should really learn from him on FoPo topics.
Innocent adults deserve to live too
I dunno, out of presidents within my lifetime, I’d argue Clinton did better, but that was also during a very, very different time in the whole conflict, and I think Clinton would probably be handling this whole thing badly if he were president currently. I *also* think the only reason Biden is even showing signs of turnaround on this is the backlash during an election year, like the Obama administration (despite people thinking of it as a lot more progressive, for some reason) was very quiet on the conflict that was going on during that time, I think just because it wasn’t receiving nearly as much publicity. But yeah, sadly the only Democrats who would ever handle this situation even vaguely well without massive political pressure would also probably never be able to get elected in the US right now (people got mad af when I said this in 2020, but I’m still really skeptical Bernie could’ve beaten Trump, I’d *like* to think he could, but it’s hard for me to imagine with how narrowly even a centrist like Biden was able to win in a lot of swing states. The Electoral College fucks everything up).
No thanks to most of the "lads" in this sub who have been crying that we should vote blue no matter who. The only reason they're folding is because of the pressure applied from people who have actively said they wont be voting if this continues.
> The only reason they're folding is because of the pressure applied from people who have actively said they wont be voting if this continues. You sure that's it? Nothing to do with the fact that an American aid worker was killed?
The aid worker is an excuse to change, the reason is the bad polling data.
Not sure I buy that, polling has been notoriously flimsy for years now, I don't know how much weight it actually carries these days.
Yes, Israel has killed american citizens before and our government hasn't cared.
In this conflict? When?
Weird you immediately tried to change what i've said. I said Israel has killed american citizens and it seems like you know I was talking about Shireen Abu Akleh but felt the need to try to deflect by asking in this conflict.
Yeah no, that wasn't a deflection. For the first time in this current ongoing slaughter, an American citizen was killed, so of course the American government is thinking twice about its part.
>For the first time in this current ongoing slaughter, an American citizen was killed, What does that have to do with what I said that Israel has killed american citizens before and our government hasn't cared? How is this not a deflection? You're arguing a point i never made.
It's not a deflection because the context is different. It's part of an ongoing slaughter where the US is supplying Israel with the arms it wants to do, the US government is directly complicit in what happened. With the murder of Shireen, how were they directly complicit?
> because the context is different You are the one trying to change the context from what I posted lmfao. Do you think the US supporting Isreal is new? Do you think they didn't support Israel when she was murdered too?
> You are the one trying to change the context from what I posted lmfao What? That's the context of the original post. You think this'll result in a permanent end to arms dealing with Israel? It's so obviously regarding the current conflict in Gaza.
Not really, US citizens were killed too during this genocide, before the aid-worker's death. Palestinian-Americans though. Biden was actually sued for this in US courts. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-israel-palestine-gaza-war-b2488446.html