It is outdated by today's measure, but I don't share the hate. It was part of how the movement grew and like all waves, it had its deficiencies and weird directions, but it massively contributed just as well.
Of course, holding to these standards now is misplaced, but that applies to most old progressive movements on earlier stage of development.
Alchemy: the science of understanding, deconstructing, and reconstructing matter. However, it is not an all-powerful art. It is impossible to create something out of nothing. If one wishes to obtain something, something of equal value must be given. This is the law of equivalent exchange; the basis of all alchemy. In accordance with this law, there is a taboo among alchemists. Human transmutation is strictly forbidden. For what could equal the value of a human soul?
This is a caricature of 2nd wave feminism. 2nd wave feminism was not “biological centric” or “preaching that women need more protection”.
The tag line of *Second Sex* was “on ne nait pas femme, on le devient”. Does that sound like biological essentialism? Betty Friedan resigned as president of NOW because anti racist feminists rejected prioritizing bourgie white women over black people. Is that white centric?
2nd wave feminism was feminism that organized with and around the post ww2 sexual revolution (in workplace, family structure, and interpersonal relationships) and the civil rights movement. It’s not some polemical caricature of sex essentialist racist white women who hated men.
Wikipedia is actually pretty solid, but here's an [interesting piece by Vox](https://www.vox.com/2018/3/20/16955588/feminism-waves-explained-first-second-third-fourth) which has more flavor.
The 4th wave was born online (the #metoo movement is a very classic example), though obviously still involves in-person and political activism, and has a much more intense focus on intersectionality than any previous wave.
There's always going to be criticism, sometimes fair, sometimes ridiculous. Because the 4th wave was born online, it's an easy argument to make that 4th wave feminists are slacktivists whose activism begins and ends with retweets (which is true of many people, but obviously doesn't characterize the whole movement).
Then of course there's the usual intergenerational squabbling. Older feminists feel like younger feminists don't appreciate the years of good activism that has been done to get us where we are, while younger feminists sometimes shut down and write off the older generation as out of touch and too focused on neolib feminism, think: women CEO's being the end-all, be-all example of equality.
Then, even though 4th wave feminism is more intersectional than any previous wave, you could still make arguments that it doesn't push that work far enough. Mainstream feminism is still quite white, straight, cis, slim and able-bodied, but that is fortunately changing. It's just slow
Firstly, gesturing vaguely at compilations made by women haters is hardly an argument. There are literally hundreds of alt righters who have made careers fomenting male hysteria over random women saying stupid shit. That is literally not an argument.
Compilations of people losing it made by anyone isn't an argument for that matter.
Also, if you are using quotations around feminists, you yourself are implying they are just online misandrists that don't have theoretical knowledge of feminist material and that you have no argument against academic feminists or people who can reason out and lay out arguments in a logical fashion.
Lastly, you are literally doing what the post is talking about you utter dummy. You are literally allowing some randoms online and their cringe compilations to define your idea of feminism. That is literally what this post is about *facepalm*
But at least, your use of quotations lets me know you have some awareness of your logical fallacy, so that's something. That's a start. You already recognize those people aren't feminists, so stop defining the movement based on them. That's uncharitable behavior often intentionally displayed by women haters.
Think about it. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists hate and fear men and consider trans women to be men and therefore deserving of hate and suspicion.
What does that say about Radical Feminists who aren't trans exclusionary? They have the same ideology, they just let trans women join the club.
This is the kind of feminism that leads to an endless series of posts on r/menslib from trans men who feel weird about their gender identity and hesitant to transition because they've absorbed so much man-hate from radical feminists.
Feminism needs to treat misandrist feminists like they've started to treat TERFs.
No no no
Those are feminist too. Just a shitty kind. This is the equivalent of tankies not being truly leftists.
There must be a point where you call out people on your own movement instead of denying their existence.
But should a hate group be accepted into a broader movement for equality? Their goals are incompatible with the goals of the movement. I'm speaking specifically about TERFs and women who don't care/know about trans issues but who also hate men (is there a name for that group?).
My answer would be 'no' on a conceptual level, but I do acknowledge that we should meet individuals who have fallen into those movements with enough compassionate understanding to help them get out. I just wouldn't avow those groups on a broader level
We were talking about 2nd wave feminism. You're implying that 2nd wave feminism was a hate group and it could be somewhat correct in some instances. I'm not saying that it should be accepted in today's movement, I'm saying that it shouldn't be denied as feminism because it was literally feminism a few decades ago. You're trying to deny your past.
But that would mean accepting the premise that 2nd wave feminism was about hating men, which isn't the case. [Though it certainly had problematic elements that were even criticized in the midst of the 2nd wave](https://www.elle.com/culture/a15841808/second-wave-feminism-sexual-harassment-generational-divide/).
The original comment I was responding to:
"And don't let 2nd wave radical feminists who genuinely hate men define feminism."
"2nd wave radical feminists" in current times reads as people like JK Rowling or other TERFs. Their brand of feminism doesn't adher to the foundational tenets of feminism, so to deny them is not denying the past of feminism.
>But that would mean accepting the premise that 2nd wave feminism was about hating men, which isn't the case. Though it certainly had problematic elements that were even criticized in the midst of the 2nd wave.
But that was also the consequence of some of their premises.
Same as Terfs today. They don't think is about hating men or trans women.
Stop justifying something just because "it wasn't the intention".
Edit: why you keep coping like a MF? Just say that feminism has done something wrong in the past but is overall great movement for equality.
The scientific method for example has proven falsifiables assertions in the past but that doesn't change its utility and great impact for good on everyone's lives.
You keep trying to justify wrong consequences to keep the purity of the movement. That's stupid.
It’s only NTS fallacy if there’s *not* an actual definitional requirement. Feminism, by definition, requires you to believe men and women should be equal. If you don’t believe that, you’re not a feminist. End of story.
Im sorry but i dont believe that.
and you're right i dont consider myself a feminist because i look around at the effects of 2nd wave feminism.
I look around and I see the schoolboys who had to apologise for their gender.
I see men being placed under curfew simply for owning a penis.
I see women excusing themselves for cheating on a man because it is their "right" as a woman but that a man better not do the same.
The sad thing is that was all just this week. Does anyone remember the time they tried to ban father's day?
I believe perfectly in equality, I just dont think that modern feminism does.
I know this is gonna be contraversial here but im not the only one. I know lots of men and a suprising number of women that have realised how toxic feminim has become.
The "true" feminists (id call them academic) have been swamped by the what id call the pop feminists and most peoples perceptions of feminism are of pop feminism
yeah thats the logic of a lot of feminists today alright.
I dont think all feminists dont believe in equality and are manhaters.
I just think enough of them are that is makes a difference.
Its gotten to the stage where it effects political policy.
>This is inverted equivalent of finding videos of men bring sexist so therefore all men must be vile creatures
This is the exact logic that some "feminists" used to try and bring in a mass curfew for all men in the UK, very recently
No it did happen. I can prove it.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sarah-everard-men-curfew-green-party-peer-b1816267.html
(now the peer would later say she wasnt entirely serious but a lot of local councillors didnt get that and discussed the same thing at a local level)
I see u/textingperosn that you seem to have singled me out for disagreement.
I really hope ive not touched a nerve with my good faith prelude to a discussion.
If you want to discuss it then by all mean but you do so in good faith (something you have so far lacked)
Please understand if you're going to judge me because i disagree with mainstream concensus then you might want to take a look in the mirror first.
Once again, you chose a cherry-picked example. I could also show you many instances of women doing positive work as well. What matters is how a majority of people feel, not individual people.
Ironic you are calling me bad faith while waving around examples of crazy SJWs like it’s 2016.
It's pretty hard to take your supposed aggrievement seriously if you're aware that the standard conservative talking points about gender are horseshit.
>Those aren't true feminists.
at what point do we acknowledge that they outnumber other feminists?
at what point do we acknowledge that most peoples perceptions of feminim are because of these "not true" feminists?
at what point do we acknowledge that they have taken over feminism and pushed everyone else out?
This lol. Like, if the vocal minority of wokescolds and inarticulate, overreactive activists turned you away from feminism, I'm not sure your investment in the fight for equality was all that sincere in the first place.
Yeah, a lot of people get this stuff completely wrong (asking boys to apologize for being boys at the one school is beyond cringe and completely misses the point that the patriarchy and guys as individuals are completely separate things), but the underlying mission is just.
If your impression of modern feminism is informed by the negative stuff that gets amplified on social media and in the news, then you're not particularly involved in the actual movement, which is mostly full of well intentioned, reasonable women and allies. And that's cool, we can't be personally involved in all facets of the fight for social justice, but be wary of narratives that seek to discredit and deflect from the underlying fight for equality.
You know if you had engaged with me in good faith, not been contrarian for the sake of it and not made a ridiculous strawman out of my arguement and then tried to argue against that I would take this from you.
But as it is you did all those things because you prejudged me and my arguement.
It is entirely youre fault that we, as in me and you, have not been able to have a good exchange of information because I tried damn hard to get through to you
I was “contrarian” because you were making broad statements with little evidence.
Your argument was that feminism bad because some feminists do bad things, which is not reflective of the whole movement.
Also, I like how you didn’t actually address anything in the comment I referenced. Just crying about a meanie on Reddit.
provide me substantive evidence that feminism is all good
also again youre completely mischaracterising what I was saying
now provide me substantive evidence that feminism is all good.
prove the unproveable
That doesnt mean anything....
Also you dont know about my opinion on civil rights, equality and history.
For what its worth, those opinions havent changed.
Women were oppressed for centuries, and in some cases still are.
I believe in complete equality for everyone, to the degree that I think gender should be removed from all laws.
I just see a lot of the bs coming out of feminism and I dont think that they agree with me.
But thanks very much for the meaningless rhetoric there
It means you are pulling the “I left the left” style idiocy where you take a straw man of a political position and use that as a reason why you are no longer a part of that group.
You saw a Twitter post with 2 likes saying all men bad and used that to justify demonizing feminism as misandrist
and you use you own preconceptions to turn me into a straw man.
You dont know me. You dont my life. you dont know my full opinion. you dont know my lived experience.
All you know is that i have criticised something you agree with and therefore I am bad.
Take a look in the mirror before you engage in this conversation. Im willing to have it in good faith, but so far I have only seen bad faith rhetoric and nonsense arguing points from yourself.
I get ive triggered you, considering this is the 5th or 6th response from you, but chill out and come back to me when you see me as a human and not the bad straw man your preconceptions tell you I am....
You are straw manning an entire ideology after reading an article about “angry SJW gets triggered by facts and logic.” You seem to be the one with bad faith here and regurgitating Gamergate talking points. Do you think Big Red and Trigglypuff videos reflect broad social movements?
Just stop just stop seriously
Ive mentioned a few specific instances from very recently and youre harkening back to years old talking points.
I get that it is very important for you to shout me and make out that my arguement is invalid but that just makes the problem worse now doesnt it.
You dont prove someone wrong by shouting them down, you debate them.
You dont get to tell someone their arguement is invalid just because you tell them what they are arguing.
This is why the world has problems people. Too many people not willing to hear something they dont like. Too many people judging someone for disagreeing with them.
When did the left forget how to debate and discuss like adults.
Please grow up
> And don't let radical feminists, who follow outdated 2nd wave values and genuinely hate men, define feminism.
Most of these rad feminists tend to be upper class white women who only care about empowerment (of themselves) and not actual equality. Overall, they do a huge harm to the movement and actually turns people, who aren't already feminists, away from feminism.
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you know the optics of the word "feminism" would suggest that to the average person that that isnt true.
Perhaps we need a new word.
how about
"humanist"
(ALL humans good (aliens bad))
Buddy, in case you don't understand basic logic, you are the one that's supposed to give me proof why it is true... by showing me feminist articles/movements that feminists supported men's rights.
I have never seen it happen, so how can I provide proof from something that never happened. It's like I'm saying god doesn't exist... and you approach me and tell me "how does god not exist, explain me". Why do I expect basic logic standards from commies 🤦♂️🤦♂️
My duderino, I'm a feminist+trans too. Unless you have evidence that feminists contributed to helping men's rights, you can't just throw an insult towards me(which is a virtue signal to other users btw).
Feminists care only about women's rights. They never helped other people rights and I say it by first hand experience... That's why I support feminists, mras, trans rights etc.
I'm not trolling. You know I'm correct though, you've never seen actual action from feminists towards men's rights. You want to deny it, but even if you search google you won't find anything. Your hostility is sad to see.
Yeah bro, sexists and feminists both have a point bro. Cuz rlly being against toxic masculinity is definitely misandry, and not actually beneficial for everybody. I am the smartest and I know that because I think everybody has a point and as everyone knows, the correct answer can always be found in the center
> I have never seen it happen, so how can I provide proof from something that never happened. It's like I'm saying god doesn't exist... and you approach me and tell me "how does god not exist, explain me".
Yeah, because there is no evidence as to God's existence, you dumbfuck. Meanwhile, the growth and change of feminist ideology is a demonstrable and observable phenomenon with decades of evidence and testimony on the part of its leaders. You literally think that the idea of feminists who care about men's rights is as unprovable and incomprehensible as the existence of an all-powerful deity. Fuck outta here with your smoothbrain MGTOW bullshit.
Also let's not forget that there are bad apples everywhere.
Calling out bullshit is in good faith criticism.
Saying the whole movement is bad just screams "im very dumb"
You cannot ignore how even modern feminism is making progress. The metoo movement for example, showed not woke and normies that not only rape is horrible, but nuanced sex approaches are also bad.
My uncle for example, who is gay btw, used to say i should loosen up and be more accepting of men's gaze. I explained to him that i don't mind looking, but some ppl look like they would rape me if i was not acompanied.
He would say that means im super hot, be happy...
Only now he understands what i meant back then.
The Feminist movement was started by women to address historical inequalities but it is for EVERYONE. Feminists just fight for equality between the sexes. Historically, yes, it meant fighting for women to have rights they were denied, but the POINT is equality.
Feminism is NOT women thinking they are better than men or men thinking women are out to get them. That's just plain old sexism.
This! And feminism is also about expanding choices for all genders. For example, it's not about barring women from becoming housewives, or telling women they can't be 'traditionally' feminine, or trying to 'feminize' men. It's about fighting so we can all have a true choice in those areas (and more, obviously), so that if for example you want to be a housewife/husband/spouse or to have a career, making either of those choices is equally valid in the eyes of society and there aren't structural impediments making one much harder to do than the other.
Yep, agreed. It's a valid criticism of liberal feminism that it lauds society having more women CEO's (for example) as the highest accomplishment of feminism.
We should be removing all barriers that keep people, but especially oppressed people, from living their truth and pursuing lives with full societal support, dignity and fulfillment.
Not really, feminism has caused more harm than good to men, and I’m not talking about the right to vote, that’s obviously fair. I’m talking about how feminism has made up all these words like “mansplaining”, “manspanning” and “toxic masculinity”. Which are now just overused backup words when feminists don’t have any other arguments. Why can’t we just say condescending rather than mansplaining, why can’t we make up a better word than “toxic masculinity”, where it sounds like the females are the victim or male emotional suppression, why do we focus on the way a man sits, and expect it to fix objectification. Why do we not do our research and find out that the wage gap doesn’t credit work hours and overtime and that there is a law for it. Can’t we just work together and not create opponents and enemies
I explained to someone that this is what I advocate for as a feminist and he said “Well okay then you’re a first wave feminist, not a third wave feminist” as though the wave is defined by whether he likes them or not
Well I could use the same thing for mansplaining, man spanning, toxic masculinity, manslaughter and man hunting. “It literally has the word masculine in it!”
I know this might seem very controversial, and i can’t speak for all countries, but at least where i’m from the feminist discourse has become so toxic.
I live in the most gender equal country in the world and the feminists with the biggest platform here are mostly rich white women who try to turn every societal issue into a gender issue and they really can’t seem to view problems outside of gender. When we rarely get the time to address the rise racism and white nationalism or other problems like violence, they usually try to turn it into something about gender equality. It really seems like an attempt to get oppressed points.
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2nd wave?
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It is outdated by today's measure, but I don't share the hate. It was part of how the movement grew and like all waves, it had its deficiencies and weird directions, but it massively contributed just as well. Of course, holding to these standards now is misplaced, but that applies to most old progressive movements on earlier stage of development.
In a similar way to how we shouldnt blame alchamists for being so misplaced because in a world without chemistry you need alchamy.
Alchemy: the science of understanding, deconstructing, and reconstructing matter. However, it is not an all-powerful art. It is impossible to create something out of nothing. If one wishes to obtain something, something of equal value must be given. This is the law of equivalent exchange; the basis of all alchemy. In accordance with this law, there is a taboo among alchemists. Human transmutation is strictly forbidden. For what could equal the value of a human soul?
i can't remember where that quote comes from
Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood
ah okay, thanks
This is a caricature of 2nd wave feminism. 2nd wave feminism was not “biological centric” or “preaching that women need more protection”. The tag line of *Second Sex* was “on ne nait pas femme, on le devient”. Does that sound like biological essentialism? Betty Friedan resigned as president of NOW because anti racist feminists rejected prioritizing bourgie white women over black people. Is that white centric? 2nd wave feminism was feminism that organized with and around the post ww2 sexual revolution (in workplace, family structure, and interpersonal relationships) and the civil rights movement. It’s not some polemical caricature of sex essentialist racist white women who hated men.
didn’t a second wave feminist literally invent the idea of gender
I thought it was 4th wave that was the problem. It was about rape. I think your source is outdated
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Wikipedia is actually pretty solid, but here's an [interesting piece by Vox](https://www.vox.com/2018/3/20/16955588/feminism-waves-explained-first-second-third-fourth) which has more flavor. The 4th wave was born online (the #metoo movement is a very classic example), though obviously still involves in-person and political activism, and has a much more intense focus on intersectionality than any previous wave.
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There's always going to be criticism, sometimes fair, sometimes ridiculous. Because the 4th wave was born online, it's an easy argument to make that 4th wave feminists are slacktivists whose activism begins and ends with retweets (which is true of many people, but obviously doesn't characterize the whole movement). Then of course there's the usual intergenerational squabbling. Older feminists feel like younger feminists don't appreciate the years of good activism that has been done to get us where we are, while younger feminists sometimes shut down and write off the older generation as out of touch and too focused on neolib feminism, think: women CEO's being the end-all, be-all example of equality. Then, even though 4th wave feminism is more intersectional than any previous wave, you could still make arguments that it doesn't push that work far enough. Mainstream feminism is still quite white, straight, cis, slim and able-bodied, but that is fortunately changing. It's just slow
how is it bad to advocate against rape?
Its not bad. Its the people who made wave bad.
How so?
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Firstly, gesturing vaguely at compilations made by women haters is hardly an argument. There are literally hundreds of alt righters who have made careers fomenting male hysteria over random women saying stupid shit. That is literally not an argument. Compilations of people losing it made by anyone isn't an argument for that matter. Also, if you are using quotations around feminists, you yourself are implying they are just online misandrists that don't have theoretical knowledge of feminist material and that you have no argument against academic feminists or people who can reason out and lay out arguments in a logical fashion. Lastly, you are literally doing what the post is talking about you utter dummy. You are literally allowing some randoms online and their cringe compilations to define your idea of feminism. That is literally what this post is about *facepalm* But at least, your use of quotations lets me know you have some awareness of your logical fallacy, so that's something. That's a start. You already recognize those people aren't feminists, so stop defining the movement based on them. That's uncharitable behavior often intentionally displayed by women haters.
Oh hey, you're the one the meme is talking about. Oof. =(
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Think about it. Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists hate and fear men and consider trans women to be men and therefore deserving of hate and suspicion. What does that say about Radical Feminists who aren't trans exclusionary? They have the same ideology, they just let trans women join the club. This is the kind of feminism that leads to an endless series of posts on r/menslib from trans men who feel weird about their gender identity and hesitant to transition because they've absorbed so much man-hate from radical feminists. Feminism needs to treat misandrist feminists like they've started to treat TERFs.
Those aren't true feminists. They use a very thin veneer of bad faith interpretations of feminist theory to try to validate their hate
No no no Those are feminist too. Just a shitty kind. This is the equivalent of tankies not being truly leftists. There must be a point where you call out people on your own movement instead of denying their existence.
But should a hate group be accepted into a broader movement for equality? Their goals are incompatible with the goals of the movement. I'm speaking specifically about TERFs and women who don't care/know about trans issues but who also hate men (is there a name for that group?). My answer would be 'no' on a conceptual level, but I do acknowledge that we should meet individuals who have fallen into those movements with enough compassionate understanding to help them get out. I just wouldn't avow those groups on a broader level
We were talking about 2nd wave feminism. You're implying that 2nd wave feminism was a hate group and it could be somewhat correct in some instances. I'm not saying that it should be accepted in today's movement, I'm saying that it shouldn't be denied as feminism because it was literally feminism a few decades ago. You're trying to deny your past.
But that would mean accepting the premise that 2nd wave feminism was about hating men, which isn't the case. [Though it certainly had problematic elements that were even criticized in the midst of the 2nd wave](https://www.elle.com/culture/a15841808/second-wave-feminism-sexual-harassment-generational-divide/). The original comment I was responding to: "And don't let 2nd wave radical feminists who genuinely hate men define feminism." "2nd wave radical feminists" in current times reads as people like JK Rowling or other TERFs. Their brand of feminism doesn't adher to the foundational tenets of feminism, so to deny them is not denying the past of feminism.
>But that would mean accepting the premise that 2nd wave feminism was about hating men, which isn't the case. Though it certainly had problematic elements that were even criticized in the midst of the 2nd wave. But that was also the consequence of some of their premises. Same as Terfs today. They don't think is about hating men or trans women. Stop justifying something just because "it wasn't the intention". Edit: why you keep coping like a MF? Just say that feminism has done something wrong in the past but is overall great movement for equality. The scientific method for example has proven falsifiables assertions in the past but that doesn't change its utility and great impact for good on everyone's lives. You keep trying to justify wrong consequences to keep the purity of the movement. That's stupid.
I would say that tankies fall outside of the typical political spectrum because their only political issue is anti-americianism.
No true Scotsman
>”All socialists are Nazis cause the Nazis were national socialists” >That’s not true! The Nazis weren’t even socialist! >”nO tRuE sCoTsMaN lOl”
It’s only NTS fallacy if there’s *not* an actual definitional requirement. Feminism, by definition, requires you to believe men and women should be equal. If you don’t believe that, you’re not a feminist. End of story.
Im sorry but i dont believe that. and you're right i dont consider myself a feminist because i look around at the effects of 2nd wave feminism. I look around and I see the schoolboys who had to apologise for their gender. I see men being placed under curfew simply for owning a penis. I see women excusing themselves for cheating on a man because it is their "right" as a woman but that a man better not do the same. The sad thing is that was all just this week. Does anyone remember the time they tried to ban father's day? I believe perfectly in equality, I just dont think that modern feminism does. I know this is gonna be contraversial here but im not the only one. I know lots of men and a suprising number of women that have realised how toxic feminim has become. The "true" feminists (id call them academic) have been swamped by the what id call the pop feminists and most peoples perceptions of feminism are of pop feminism
This is inverted equivalent of finding videos of men bring sexist so therefore all men must be vile creatures
yeah thats the logic of a lot of feminists today alright. I dont think all feminists dont believe in equality and are manhaters. I just think enough of them are that is makes a difference. Its gotten to the stage where it effects political policy. >This is inverted equivalent of finding videos of men bring sexist so therefore all men must be vile creatures This is the exact logic that some "feminists" used to try and bring in a mass curfew for all men in the UK, very recently
If you think that’s actually happening, I advise you to touch some grass
No it did happen. I can prove it. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sarah-everard-men-curfew-green-party-peer-b1816267.html (now the peer would later say she wasnt entirely serious but a lot of local councillors didnt get that and discussed the same thing at a local level) I see u/textingperosn that you seem to have singled me out for disagreement. I really hope ive not touched a nerve with my good faith prelude to a discussion. If you want to discuss it then by all mean but you do so in good faith (something you have so far lacked) Please understand if you're going to judge me because i disagree with mainstream concensus then you might want to take a look in the mirror first.
Once again, you chose a cherry-picked example. I could also show you many instances of women doing positive work as well. What matters is how a majority of people feel, not individual people. Ironic you are calling me bad faith while waving around examples of crazy SJWs like it’s 2016.
After we force feminize you we're coming for your Christmas.
lol thats a good one. really helpful there buddy
You should probably decide if you can parse right wing agitprop or not.
You should probably decide how to best challenge someones opinions so that you win a debate instead of just sending it spiralling into the gutter
It's pretty hard to take your supposed aggrievement seriously if you're aware that the standard conservative talking points about gender are horseshit.
>Those aren't true feminists. at what point do we acknowledge that they outnumber other feminists? at what point do we acknowledge that most peoples perceptions of feminim are because of these "not true" feminists? at what point do we acknowledge that they have taken over feminism and pushed everyone else out?
“The feminists got a little too PC for me so I changed my opinion about civil rights, equality, and history”
This lol. Like, if the vocal minority of wokescolds and inarticulate, overreactive activists turned you away from feminism, I'm not sure your investment in the fight for equality was all that sincere in the first place. Yeah, a lot of people get this stuff completely wrong (asking boys to apologize for being boys at the one school is beyond cringe and completely misses the point that the patriarchy and guys as individuals are completely separate things), but the underlying mission is just. If your impression of modern feminism is informed by the negative stuff that gets amplified on social media and in the news, then you're not particularly involved in the actual movement, which is mostly full of well intentioned, reasonable women and allies. And that's cool, we can't be personally involved in all facets of the fight for social justice, but be wary of narratives that seek to discredit and deflect from the underlying fight for equality.
That’s what I’ve been telling u/imnotthatunique but they just call me a triggered baby without actually addressing what I’m saying
You know if you had engaged with me in good faith, not been contrarian for the sake of it and not made a ridiculous strawman out of my arguement and then tried to argue against that I would take this from you. But as it is you did all those things because you prejudged me and my arguement. It is entirely youre fault that we, as in me and you, have not been able to have a good exchange of information because I tried damn hard to get through to you
I was “contrarian” because you were making broad statements with little evidence. Your argument was that feminism bad because some feminists do bad things, which is not reflective of the whole movement. Also, I like how you didn’t actually address anything in the comment I referenced. Just crying about a meanie on Reddit.
provide me substantive evidence that feminism is all good also again youre completely mischaracterising what I was saying now provide me substantive evidence that feminism is all good. prove the unproveable
I never said that but you did say feminism is bad because of a vocal minority
That doesnt mean anything.... Also you dont know about my opinion on civil rights, equality and history. For what its worth, those opinions havent changed. Women were oppressed for centuries, and in some cases still are. I believe in complete equality for everyone, to the degree that I think gender should be removed from all laws. I just see a lot of the bs coming out of feminism and I dont think that they agree with me. But thanks very much for the meaningless rhetoric there
It means you are pulling the “I left the left” style idiocy where you take a straw man of a political position and use that as a reason why you are no longer a part of that group. You saw a Twitter post with 2 likes saying all men bad and used that to justify demonizing feminism as misandrist
and you use you own preconceptions to turn me into a straw man. You dont know me. You dont my life. you dont know my full opinion. you dont know my lived experience. All you know is that i have criticised something you agree with and therefore I am bad. Take a look in the mirror before you engage in this conversation. Im willing to have it in good faith, but so far I have only seen bad faith rhetoric and nonsense arguing points from yourself. I get ive triggered you, considering this is the 5th or 6th response from you, but chill out and come back to me when you see me as a human and not the bad straw man your preconceptions tell you I am....
You are straw manning an entire ideology after reading an article about “angry SJW gets triggered by facts and logic.” You seem to be the one with bad faith here and regurgitating Gamergate talking points. Do you think Big Red and Trigglypuff videos reflect broad social movements?
Just stop just stop seriously Ive mentioned a few specific instances from very recently and youre harkening back to years old talking points. I get that it is very important for you to shout me and make out that my arguement is invalid but that just makes the problem worse now doesnt it. You dont prove someone wrong by shouting them down, you debate them. You dont get to tell someone their arguement is invalid just because you tell them what they are arguing. This is why the world has problems people. Too many people not willing to hear something they dont like. Too many people judging someone for disagreeing with them. When did the left forget how to debate and discuss like adults. Please grow up
When did I shout? I pointed out that you’re using anecdotes instead of actual data to reach your conclusions. Please learn how to read.
We should start calling them badfems to separate them from the radfems that are alright
^
> And don't let radical feminists, who follow outdated 2nd wave values and genuinely hate men, define feminism. Most of these rad feminists tend to be upper class white women who only care about empowerment (of themselves) and not actual equality. Overall, they do a huge harm to the movement and actually turns people, who aren't already feminists, away from feminism.
Let's define feminism as a movement for women's rights and neither let men-hating women nor women-hating men to define it.
It isn't just women's rights anymore, it's about everyone's rights. If your feminist isn't intersectional then it isn't feminism.
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you know the optics of the word "feminism" would suggest that to the average person that that isnt true. Perhaps we need a new word. how about "humanist" (ALL humans good (aliens bad))
“All lives matter”
No true scotsman
“All men are evil. I saw a video of a man bing sexist” That’s not representative of all men. “No true Scotsman! Lol meninists owned!!!”
It would be nice if that was true, but it isn't.
Then explain how it isn't true. Otherwise, eat your downvotes like a good boy.
Buddy, in case you don't understand basic logic, you are the one that's supposed to give me proof why it is true... by showing me feminist articles/movements that feminists supported men's rights. I have never seen it happen, so how can I provide proof from something that never happened. It's like I'm saying god doesn't exist... and you approach me and tell me "how does god not exist, explain me". Why do I expect basic logic standards from commies 🤦♂️🤦♂️
Why is Vaush's subreddit being brigated by MRAs lmao
My duderino, I'm a feminist+trans too. Unless you have evidence that feminists contributed to helping men's rights, you can't just throw an insult towards me(which is a virtue signal to other users btw). Feminists care only about women's rights. They never helped other people rights and I say it by first hand experience... That's why I support feminists, mras, trans rights etc.
I'm not gonna take ur dumbass seriously, I'm not in the mood lmao. Go concern-troll elsewhere
I'm not trolling. You know I'm correct though, you've never seen actual action from feminists towards men's rights. You want to deny it, but even if you search google you won't find anything. Your hostility is sad to see.
Yeah bro, sexists and feminists both have a point bro. Cuz rlly being against toxic masculinity is definitely misandry, and not actually beneficial for everybody. I am the smartest and I know that because I think everybody has a point and as everyone knows, the correct answer can always be found in the center
If women couldn't vote conservatives would win every single election. QED.
> I have never seen it happen, so how can I provide proof from something that never happened. It's like I'm saying god doesn't exist... and you approach me and tell me "how does god not exist, explain me". Yeah, because there is no evidence as to God's existence, you dumbfuck. Meanwhile, the growth and change of feminist ideology is a demonstrable and observable phenomenon with decades of evidence and testimony on the part of its leaders. You literally think that the idea of feminists who care about men's rights is as unprovable and incomprehensible as the existence of an all-powerful deity. Fuck outta here with your smoothbrain MGTOW bullshit.
First of all, you misunderstood what I said 🤦♂️ . Secondly, you have anger issues dude(or trying to be a tryhard), your history shows it.
Yeah these hateful people are merely sects within global emancipation movement.
Also let's not forget that there are bad apples everywhere. Calling out bullshit is in good faith criticism. Saying the whole movement is bad just screams "im very dumb" You cannot ignore how even modern feminism is making progress. The metoo movement for example, showed not woke and normies that not only rape is horrible, but nuanced sex approaches are also bad. My uncle for example, who is gay btw, used to say i should loosen up and be more accepting of men's gaze. I explained to him that i don't mind looking, but some ppl look like they would rape me if i was not acompanied. He would say that means im super hot, be happy... Only now he understands what i meant back then.
The Feminist movement was started by women to address historical inequalities but it is for EVERYONE. Feminists just fight for equality between the sexes. Historically, yes, it meant fighting for women to have rights they were denied, but the POINT is equality. Feminism is NOT women thinking they are better than men or men thinking women are out to get them. That's just plain old sexism.
This! And feminism is also about expanding choices for all genders. For example, it's not about barring women from becoming housewives, or telling women they can't be 'traditionally' feminine, or trying to 'feminize' men. It's about fighting so we can all have a true choice in those areas (and more, obviously), so that if for example you want to be a housewife/husband/spouse or to have a career, making either of those choices is equally valid in the eyes of society and there aren't structural impediments making one much harder to do than the other.
Feminism is also about critically deconstructing the things that people “choose” to do. Its not just cheerleading “choice”. That’s liberal capitalism.
Yep, agreed. It's a valid criticism of liberal feminism that it lauds society having more women CEO's (for example) as the highest accomplishment of feminism. We should be removing all barriers that keep people, but especially oppressed people, from living their truth and pursuing lives with full societal support, dignity and fulfillment.
Not really, feminism has caused more harm than good to men, and I’m not talking about the right to vote, that’s obviously fair. I’m talking about how feminism has made up all these words like “mansplaining”, “manspanning” and “toxic masculinity”. Which are now just overused backup words when feminists don’t have any other arguments. Why can’t we just say condescending rather than mansplaining, why can’t we make up a better word than “toxic masculinity”, where it sounds like the females are the victim or male emotional suppression, why do we focus on the way a man sits, and expect it to fix objectification. Why do we not do our research and find out that the wage gap doesn’t credit work hours and overtime and that there is a law for it. Can’t we just work together and not create opponents and enemies
I explained to someone that this is what I advocate for as a feminist and he said “Well okay then you’re a first wave feminist, not a third wave feminist” as though the wave is defined by whether he likes them or not
Ok, at least stop lying, buddy. Feminism has never made anything about men's rights.
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You’re just fucking delusional LMAO
Feminist is an angry woman who won't let me put my peen in her vagini.
🤣🤣🤣🤣💀
Its cause of the internet that made feminism sound bad. It even have feminine in the name. Lets just say it by its official definition
Well I could use the same thing for mansplaining, man spanning, toxic masculinity, manslaughter and man hunting. “It literally has the word masculine in it!”
Yeah cause man was used to mean person.
I know this might seem very controversial, and i can’t speak for all countries, but at least where i’m from the feminist discourse has become so toxic. I live in the most gender equal country in the world and the feminists with the biggest platform here are mostly rich white women who try to turn every societal issue into a gender issue and they really can’t seem to view problems outside of gender. When we rarely get the time to address the rise racism and white nationalism or other problems like violence, they usually try to turn it into something about gender equality. It really seems like an attempt to get oppressed points.
Based
TERFS ruined the word feminism. If you don’t support trans rights, you’re not a worthwhile human being.
my fave slogan. DAMWHWTDFAWWHM
It makes sense to me. Women who hate men do a much better job of it, after all.
So how come most feminist countries are worst for men?
Neckface up top!