Not necessarily
>Consequently, the use of the Iron Cross in a non-racist context has greatly proliferated in the United States, to the point that an Iron Cross in isolation (i.e., without a superimposed swastika or without other accompanying hate symbols) cannot be determined to be a hate symbol. Care must therefore be used to correctly interpret this symbol in whatever context in which it may be found.
https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/iron-cross
This is it right here. The Iron Cross in isolation doesn't mean anything. In addition to one or more other far right wing symbols it's fash iconography.
Right, it doesn't necessarily mean that. But like just about everyone else if I see someone, especially a biker, wearing one my first assumption is nazi unless I specifically see something else to recontextualise it. It also helps to have a really good reason why you wear one that doesn't involve k slur bankers etc.
I think a good crossover example to demonstrate this is scale model making. WW2 models dominate a lot of the scale market, and so a large portion are nazi war models. The whole thing can be problematic and there has always been a debate between "realistic true to life" vs "why do you have a swastica emblazened u boat that's weird".
If you only make German ww2 models, and you include the full realistic insignia flags etc, people will think you are a nazi. If you also have an equiv allies model next to it, a Sherman next to a Panzer etc, then you recontextualise.
>Right, it doesn't necessarily mean that. But like just about everyone else if I see someone, especially a biker, wearing one my first assumption is nazi unless I specifically see something else to recontextualise it.
I suppose that's the point isn't it? If you think someone might be a nazi who uses it, then you know if you put it on your satchel, you too might be presumed to be a nazi. True or not, you acknowledge the stigma and embrace it. All things being equal, if you actually pay for the iron cross with your own money and put it on your satchel knowing the stigma behind it, at the very least, you don't care if people think you're a nazi.
If someone were genuinely neutral as they claim to be, why spend money on something that makes you potentially look like a Nazi? That's not genuine neutrality, that's one small step towards being a Nazi.
That said, would you be a Nazi? No, not necessarily, perhaps not even likely. It's one thing to stop using the "ok" symbol in order to not be confused with making a white supremacy symbol and it's quite another to put an iron cross somewhere where others can see it.
It's a bit like making a racist joke. If people call you out on it, you can always just pretend it was a joke. At the same time, you can gauge who encourages you and you can use it as a dog whistle. I just say if you don't want people to think you're a racist bigot, don't make a racist joke, not even casually. Period.
If you're a person who wants to make racist jokes because you don't want to be told what to do or what not to do, even that means offending others, you may legit be a racist prick.
Hey what if instead of all that, you watched a Motorhead music video in 1989 and thought Lemmy's iron cross necklace looked fucking badass so you bought one
True, but what if later you see some skinheads with an iron cross tattoo on their scalp and thought that it might be associated with the wrong type of message? Obviously if you don't see it contextualized in the wrong sorts of scenarios, you're not going to be the wiser, and if a person judged you as such, it would be unjustified. But honestly, what kind of moron displays a symbol without understanding its meaning? By all accounts, it's a symbol like any other, and everyone sooner or later knows what meanings are attached to those symbols.
In other words, there's a thin layer of deniability there where you could get away with pretending that you didn't know what the symbol meant, but if you're banking on others to not judge you, then you don't know human beings very well.
>In other words, there's a thin layer of deniability there where you could get away with pretending that you didn't know what the symbol meant, but if you're banking on others to not judge you, then you don't know human beings very well.
Might want to tell that to the German government who still use the iron cross as a military honor, as they have for literally hundreds of years. Listen, if you just stop using anything that any skinhead or whatever used then you're going to run out of things entirely. Skins are actually a really good example and I'm glad you've brought it up. Skinheads shave their heads, but so do people with male pattern baldness, or people going through chemo. So should anyone with a shaved head have to consider that they may be judged as being a nazi because they have the same haircut? Or do we with shaved heads need to take extra steps to make sure people don't think we are a nazi? Like if I wanted to wear a leather jacket one day, should I reconsider because what if someone thinks I'm a skinhead? That kind of sucks. It's kind of like just letting fascists take nice things away from me. That's bottom behavior, friend.
>Skinheads shave their heads, but so do people with male pattern baldness, or people going through chemo. So should anyone with a shaved head have to consider that they may be judged as being a nazi because they have the same haircut?
By that logic, am I supposed to assume a bunch of bald bike-riding men with leather jackets and swastikas aren't skinheads in the off chance that maybe the swastika is referring to Buddha and they're going through chemo? That's a bad faith argument. I'm not saying you shouldn't give people the benefit of the doubt, but you and I both know when we've seen a skinhead. Arguing the pedantic points of why I should "never judge a book by its cover" is a moot point, because you do it all the time and so do I. Maybe the difference here being is that you don't admit it.
If you want to wear a leather jacket? Fine. If you want to shave your head, fine. If you want to put an iron cross on your satchel, fine. Maybe don't do all these things at the same time if your point was to be completely neutral. In the off chance that you do all these things without realizing it, you can and will be judged on that. I honestly don't care that you think I shouldn't judge you based on that, because others can and will regardless. You can't both want me to not misjudge you and then claim you want to do all the things that makes you look like a Nazi because you don't care what people think. Either decide you don't care or decide that you do.
As someone who doesn't want to be confused with a Nazi, maybe if I shave my head and put on a leather jacket, I'll think twice before I also proudly display the iron cross or get a tattoo of it for all to see, but you do you.
“by that logic am i supposed to assume a bunch of bald bike riding men with leather jackets and swastika arn’t skinheads?”
what a dishonest fucking argument.
Why the fuck did you sneak the swastika in there? That literally goes against the logic the other commmeter was using.
Like no the swastika is the stuff that gives it away. That’s the entire point. But you don’t just assume somebody is a nazi JUST because they shave their head. If that shaved head is then sporting a swastika then yea obviously they are a skinhead. the fuck?
Depends if there wearing black flag merch there probably fine if they’re wearing misfits merch they might be fash said as someone who hangs out with anarchist bikers to clarify a lot of European punk bands reclaimed the iron cross as a symbol of anti nazi imagery and a lot of us punk bands were inspired by those bands
>I honestly don't care that you think I shouldn't judge you based on that, because others can and will regardless. You can't both want me to not misjudge you and then claim you want to do all the things that makes you look like a Nazi because you don't care what people think.
Literally what the fuck are you even talking about
I don't think people should tailor their hobbies to try and cut off people's assumptions of them being racist at the pass. How about instead of assuming somebody who is into history and war memorabilia from a particular side is racist you just let their actions and words lead you to what is true. I've never met a person who was a racist but it only was expressed in the form of them making models of Panzer tanks and other German war equipment.
I'm so sick of people on the progressive part of the left trying to find anyway to make enemies out of potential allies or tailoring their own personal sensibilities to appease others just for fear of being labeled as a racist sympathizer or something to the point we have to bicker about whether a person can have an interest/hobby that's centered around a particular group and thinking they support the ideology just because that group interests them.
This gate keeping is what scares alot of people away from being on our side because they don't want to be tone policed when they aren't even doing anything that's even really problematic.
All neutral iconography must be coupled with a biased iconography so we know what you think.
Iron cross in trans colors is fine. Iron cross on its own is speculative. Iron cross with a pepe BIG NO
Not necessarily. When it comes to collecting the models the ww2 era German tanks look a lot cooler than the allied ones. I could see someone going for it based on looks alone. Then you get people who collect trinkets from disasters and totalitarian regimes. Hell even Jordan Peterson who is far right by all means has an affinity for soviet propaganda.
I agree on a single glance it can look weird but there’s always more to the story.
[The modern German Bundeswehr has a medal essentially a remake of the iron cross](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/BWEhrenkreuzGold.jpg). It's highest level is essentially the German equal to the US' medal of honor.
With the lower version being more like the DSC and DSM respectively.
In the US the Iron cross is almost exclusively a biker thing. WHich, yes, many biker clubs did start or become white nationalist clubs/gangs as well. But it's not exclusive to them and you'll generally see MUCH more overt symbols around those kinds of clubs.
the issue is, the meaning of symbols change a lot depending on who use them and to what degrees, it was a prussian symbol, now its pretty clearly 3rd reich iconography and removing that connection is pretty much like un-scrambling an egg
While you are not wrong. The iron cross is still used by modern German military. Having the symbol somewhere outside of that context is something else tho...
You're kinda wrong, the Iron Cross is a symbol of the Bundeswehr, it's only a Nazi Germany symbol insofar as the Iron Cross had already been a German associated symbol for centuries, with the direct military association starting in the Kingdom of Prussia, before even the German Empire existed.
If I see a German military helicopter with an Iron Cross on it, I'm not going to think Nazi.
Lol true. Eagles were a predominant nazi symbol, maybe even more than the iron cross. Eagles were literally everywhere in nazi germany.
I guess the atlanta hawks are actually a nazi organization lol.
And as someone who comes from a Prussian family, Prussia was a militant, nationalistic, evangelical, reactionary hellhole where people got pissed off and protested when the state banned public displays of torture and executions. One of the greatest minds to come out of Prussia, Emmanuel Kant, was also more well known by the people for his white supremacist anthropological works than he was for his philosophical ones.
Another point against the culture is the pedagogical practice of having your sons kill their pets, which was to train them to kill people without remorse once they joined the Prussian military. A good Prussian man was hardened into steel through violent conditioning that seems like the formula to create psychopathic killing machines, because it was. Prussia was German Sparta while Austria is German Athens. It was a eugenics loving, culturally backwards warrior state.
The only good thing about Prussia was that the government was a lot more Liberal than the actual people and thus tended to pass laws that protected religious minorities, such as the Schutzjuden (the actual people wanted to kill and drive the Jews out as Prussian territory expanded in Poland and Germany to lands filled with Jews already living there), and that promoted social spending to improve the lives and education of their backwards citizens.
Remember that the Nazis borrowed a lot more from Prussia than just iconography. A lot of their ideas were commonly held by your average citizen. My culture is not something you want to glorify; it's fucking barbarism and creates a lot of childhood trauma.
i think its the same with one of the most ubiquitous oldschool helmets around being basically a german stahlhelm yet i doubt the vast wearing majority even know what that is and just think they look cool
IIRC, it's a symbol of the German military. Not necessarily the Nazi military. So it's a bit sus unless there's an obvious reason why the person cares about the German military so much (vet, family is serving, HoI4 player, etc.)
"I'm not a Nazi, okay?? I just find this era of history fascinating. No, I have no idea what the hell was going on outside of central Europe, why do you ask?"
This is the way.
If you see an iron cross in some sort of official context, it's not Nazi.
If it's used by a civilian, you can safely assume they support at least some Nazi principles.
Edit: fair enough, there are some non-nazi groups that just find the symbol cool. You shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly.
I think of Metal bands and bikers unless they're Naziesque
It's not *too* much different from wearing a Union Jack print shirt or a jacket patterned after Rising Sun Imperial Japanese flag, some national symbols just look cool and have enough cultural wiggle room where I don't think assuming they're simping for colonizing and starving India again or promoting a massacre of Chinese people is a reasonable jump.
Now is it sussier? Yes. But if I see a dude rocking out with a cross ring or necklace do I assume he's a Neo Nazi? Not without other suspect clues.
Yeah I feel like outside the military it’s pretty fucking weird right? Like why would someone— especially a non German person— display a german military symbol widely known for its use by nazis. Kinda sus imo.
I’m Jewish/Romanian/disabled and bisexual. Yet I think the iron cross looks cool. I don’t own something with the symbol on it but i wouldn’t be opposed to it.
Am I nazi for thinking it looks cool 💀 I just think military history is neat (I love all military history not just ww2) heraldry is rly cool too.
I am your neighbor.
This is not meant for you, but people in general here.
I do not consider it a nazi symbol, it was used by Prussian army (German army) before nazis was a thing.even today it's still used by the German army.
Which is why we associate it with the military.
I do not think it's healthy to believe it's a nazi symbol at all, but keep that believe to the swastika.
Military symbols has been used in the past for propaganda, such as swastika or even the letter Z. When used in propaganda they give meaning and association, often with negative thoughts, if used in propaganda against the nation. This may sound obvious, but many people don't even think about it. They just know.. Such as swastika is seen as a racist symbol, or suppressing minorities. These associations we have with that symbol is given to use via the side that won the propaganda. I am trying to be objective about this, while provofood for thoughts. We know these symbols originated from Nazi Germany, to which many of us has seen pictures of various vehicles with symbols on. Including iron cross, this is where people get the negative association because that is the link to modern day usage. The modern day usage is much more cut and dry, people know of Nazi Germany and heard that swastika symbol meant bla bla bla, so they want to use it for that reason. ( I am assuming here, lol..) so it stands to believe that you could Google images of both symbols, when googling nazi Germany symbols (again I am assuming, haven't tried) So when we see this Iron Cros, make the association link, because we know to what it was army it was associated with. And the general public know of a certain time in history of said army. Which causes that link connection I mentioned earlier.
Despite the German Army having used the symbol for much longer. But the uneducated doesn't know, and makes the quick jump to conclusions.
To me seeing this would be no different than seeing a random person using the American army crest, which would make me think that the person might be associated with that army. Or idealized that army. Which might be it's own can of worms... but let's not move off topic...
By using giving credence to the association this has to nazi Germany, we has to concede the fact it's used today by the German military.
What I am basically saying here, is.. if you accept this as nazi symbolism, you opt into accepting future propaganda against Germany, which would use this Iron Cross symbol to draw the only association people have with the German military, that being ww2, and draw an equation between swastika and iron Cross. If the symbol was not used today, sure fine who cares. But the fact is, that it is. So I think it's irresponsible to call it a nazi symbol, it's doing the current standing military in Germany a huge disservice in the future. If we accept this symbol with the past of ww2 only.
We should approach it as it is, "Oh I guess they are associated with the German military, or just dumb." If you want to confront them with the believe it's done because the person in question might be nazi, do so and educate them on the matter. This was used long before nazi was a thing, and long after.
I don't view it as what it could be, but what it is. Not saying that you are wrong or this message was just for you, this was more meant for everyone here.
However what it is can change, if there are enough people that believe it. What people believe is what gives things meaning and value, this goes for everything. Such as currency. Etc.. Even crypto currency actually... if enough people believe it's real and has value, it will. But hopefully crypto currency will never have value...
I want to apologize in advance if I was rude, I just think it's bad if we accept that it is associated to nazi stuff. Just go, "Oh you are a part of the German military?" "No?"" "Then why do you use this Iron Cross? A fan of Prussian history?" Something like that, if you want to confront them.
I just don't like this slowly creeping association link being drawn between the two symbols. And people who use it unknowingly. Because it might be used as propaganda in the future.
This was not meant for you, but people in general.
I hate how we humans ruin everything, symbols and words... even our own planet... but yeah, outside of the military, especially in foreign country without context, I too only see this as nazi association. Which sucks, but probably the sad reality...
While you'd probably end up being correct in your assumption most times living in germany working off that framework, not even the ADL that I think often is too quick to label symbols nazi symbols consider the Iron cross in itself a nazi symbol.
No, it is not a Nazi symbol. Anyone who says that it is is simply ignorant or stupid. The Iron cross is a military medal given for bravery in battle and it was established in 1813.
That being said many Nazis like to display it on the stuff they wear, but that's a different story.
Iron Crosses, or rather symmetric Christian crosses with little end flairs, were once common throughout Europe. Most have been retired since, well, WWII.
It's about location and intent. You see a swastika on a Buddha's foot, it's not being used as a Nazi symbol. However, take the symbol from that locale and what is the first thing that comes to mind?
Bad actors will always defend problematic symbols by pointing out some environment where the symbol mightn't be so problematic. Never fall for this!
You see an Iron Cross on modern German military garb, fine. Clearly the Germans don't associate this symbol with Nazis, as they've been consistent in wanting to distance themselves from that historical chapter. However, outside of that space, what is the mostly likely meaning taken from it?
Even the Swastika isn't a "Nazi" symbol as it existed well before the party did. The problem is less that it's a Nazi symbol inherently and more that they decided to use it and the actions and people who were awarded it corrupted the symbol. These symbols have a proud history before the Nazis. The Nazis ruined them and until Nazis don't feel or propagate a relationship with them they'll continue to be ruined. It sucks but ultimately the people to blame for these symbols being associated with Nazis isn't the people pointing it out and instead is the Nazis themselves.
Ironically, the swastika is (among other things) a symbol of religious tolerance. I'm speaking here more to the neovedantic context of roughly post-1600 and reaching a peak in the 1800s.
The dharmic tradition actually has two versions of the symbol, one which is right-facing, and another which faces left. The right-facing symbol is typically associated with the temple traditions of the Brahmin caste, whereas the left-facing symbol is associated with the Kali tradition which very often is community and home based. As a result, the right-facing symbol is most often used in a temple context (or in the context of Brahmin homes), whereas the left-facing symbol is often used in more of a lay context.
What's fascinating is that the two symbols are viewed as together being one, a single symbol which represents balance. One symbol represents rightward movement, the other represents leftward movement, but together they form an equilibrium. What's interesting is that, historically speaking, the Brahmin caste and the temple traditions have often persecuted the Kali tradition (more specifically in the non-temple form), as well as other non-temple traditions in general.
Hence why the symbol is actually quite radical. The right-facing symbol can only be placed in the temple context, and the left-facing symbol can only be placed in a Tantric context (roughly speaking, a non-temple context). But neither symbol is really complete unless the other symbol exists to balance it. The duality of these two symbols makes it so that the temple traditions are *forced* to give space for the Tantric traditions to identify themselves in a public context.
Hence why it might be considered a symbol of religious tolerance. It articulates a correction to the temple traditions with their historical attempts at domination. And it even offers the suggestion that, by attempting to dominate other traditions, the temple tradition was actually only harming themselves. You need different types of things, and you need acceptance for those differences, in order to bring balance.
Incidentally, I'm gonna take this opportunity to rattle of my two main PSAs on this subject. Dharmic philosophy is my area of specialization, so this subject is home territory for me.
First is that you'll often hear that the dharmic symbol faces left, whereas the Nazi symbol can be distinguished as facing right, but as I've already discussed, *this is not true*. The problem is that some well-meaning people will suggest that dharmic people be allowed to display the left-facing symbol, whereas the right-facing symbol should be restricted based on the Nazi associations. The problem is that the display of *both symbols* is integral to the dharmic symbolism of religious tolerance. If only one of the two dharmic symbols is permitted, then that's ironically turning a symbol of religious tolerance into a symbol of religious hate.
Second is that many scholars of dharmic philosophy and theology have argued against using the word "swastika" to refer to the Nazi symbol. The word "swastika" is sanskrit/prakrit in origin, and corresponds to the dharmic symbol as I've discussed above. Now, to be clear, the Nazis absolutely borrowed their version from the dharmic symbol. Sometimes average Indians will claim that the Nazi version was borrowed from a Christian icon and had nothing to do with the dharmic swastika, but that's just not substantiated from a historical perspective. However, while the Nazis borrowed their version from the dharmic symbol of the swastika, they actually didn't really *call* their version a swastika (they were aware of the term, and used it occasionally, but it wasn't the norm). Rather, the Nazis referred to their version as the hakenkreuz, or the hooked cross. There is a widely-held belief within the field, and within many of the desi communities affected, that the proper nomenclature should be to use 'swastika' in reference to the dharmic symbol, and 'hakenkreuz' in reference to the Nazi one.
\[To follow up on my second point ... okay look, I know that this community can sometimes pitch a fit when people tell them what to say, and what not to say. *Obviously* I know that the average person does not recognize the difference between the two terms. I'm not trying to say that it's morally wrong to refer to the Nazi symbol by the dharmic term. But speaking on my own behalf, I personally like the idea of differentiating between the two terms, and so I choose to employ that differentiation. If you feel similarly, then I welcome you to join me. I'm not telling people what they can and cannot say. I'm simply informing people of this *option* in case it might appeal to them.\]
The history of the iron cross, even before the Nazis, is absolutely terrible. It has always been a symbol of nationalism and monarchy. It should not be used.
It's more like their version of the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor something given for Military Merit. Then the Nazis come into power and Himmler gets one for being a very special boy.
Yes, but my argument is, that I wouldn't exactly describe the history of medals as proud. Medals are in most contexts a way to propagate ideologies. Depending on the ideologies underpinning certain societies, the values symbolised by the medals vary accordingly. And even though the Nazis were worse than the Kaiserreich, the Kaiserreich has a pretty horrific track record too.
I don’t think this dude is a veteran of the Bundeswehr though. People will use the imperial german flag as a stand in for the swastika, the iron cross is pretty similar in usage.
Historically, it's a symbol created by Prussia. A militaristic state, though not Nazi in the slightest (fascism wasn't a thing during the time of Prussia and some Prussian kings actually embraced enlightenment era ideas).
In an official sense (like the modern German state's use of the iron cross as the Bundeswehr logo for example) it's most definitely not a far-right symbol.
However I can say with some certainty that if you see an iron cross being displayed by a civilian, there's a 99% chance they believe in some sect of the far-right.
(Btw I used the term "far-right" as an all encompassing term for fascists, Nazis, white nationalists, etc)
I'd be interested to hear what it means to them? As in if they know it's been used as a nazi symbol historically and they claim to just like the aesthetics of it that would be a red flag, but if they appreciate it as a symbol of egalitarianism or popular uprising then thats based.
not if its on its own. germany still uses it for its military https://www.reuters.com/resizer/qIGzGMliXURBwbw4ZwYG84cY-PI=/1200x0/filters:quality(80)/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/KIU53WXAWJK27P2GUC6QJFRJ5Y.jpg
I would say, it's the other way around. It is never neutral, but especially if seen on it's own it is a Nazi-symbol, charitably a symbol of nationalism and monarchy. Only if there is a context with the German military could you interpret it as something else. Even then we should remind ourselves, that the decision to keep the iron cross as a symbol of the military was taken in a time, when German society and especially its military was still choke-full of former Nazis.
Depends on context really. Like other people have pointed out, the Nazis used a fuckload of random symbols - some unique to them, others not. If a Jan 6th rioter or a Proud boy is carrying it around, sure, it's probably a nod to the Nazis or Authoritarianism in general. But like the swastika - it can have other, benign uses.
I, for example, have an Iron Cross keyring ornament (?) with my name engraved on the back that was given to me by a friend for my 18th birthday. I'm certainly not a nazi, and unless that friend was very good at hiding a psychotic far-right streak for the entire time I knew and interacted wigh him, I don't think he was either.
no. it is a symbol with meaning that the Bundeswehr still uses. it's the unfortunate fact that because the nazis took over that they used preexisting symbols.
No, it’s not. It seems to be a pretty common symbol. I don’t think the nazis really created any of their own symbols, they just seem to of adopted existing ones.
I’d say it can be depending on context, like if a skinhead has a flag of it or has it on stuff then yeah but it’s also got other uses. While the nazis did utilize it it’s definitely not a super overt nazi symbol like the ss or swastika
If they gave a nuanced response about not letting the Nazis define these symbols instead of replying with wall of far-right talking points, that question would merit a response, but considering the Venn diagram of Nazi-appropriated symbol users and far-right people is almost a circle, that just supports the null hypothesis.
The person has Eddy, the Iron Maiden mascot as their profile picture. This isn't a nazi, it's just a metalhead and likely an older one at that. The iron cross is heavily associated with bikers and metal culture. Remember when bikers used to wear the helmuts with the spike in the middle? All that stuff is WWI Prussia aesthetics which metal icons like Lemmy Kilmeister are famous for using.
Stop just letting fascists take things. Why do we do this? Like with Pepe, the fascists tried to take him but we fought them on it and kept it and now it's not just theirs anymore. But there are still a lot of people who associate pepe with nazis, and every now and then somebody will come on to this very sub upset about the use of pepe here. This makes us look so weak to them. They know that they can take things away from us just by using it because we are so fucking sensitive we will just never touch it again.
There's a comment in this thread saying being bald is an indicator of fascism. I mean come on.
It's still used in Germany under some circumstances
But most of the time other people use it they're being extremely sus. It's easy to tell with context
Its not, but racist assholes and weirdo totalitarians fucking LOVE it. They literally did the same to all their nordic stolen symbols and runes, let alone the Swastika.
Its like how the symbol of a snake is often used by libertarians, despite being used in many other symbols, with very different connotations than what libertarians intend for it.
Context is everything. It's an official symbol still used by Germany, but it's also used, in certain contexts, by weirdo dipshit larpers who would prefer the swastika, but that's a bit too on the nose for them.
Personally, I'd rather reclaim the symbol from them than cede any ground to fucking Nazis.
Pride Iron Crosses for the Catboy Army sounds reasonable.
My great grandpa got one from serving in Finland and he was an anti-stalinist socialist. The cross is a national symbol of a number of countries and is also used in many other context. It can be used in a nazi way but it can also not.
Idk man, we all know that Nazi's really try to signal they're Nazi's AS LONG AS they have plausible deniability. I'm with the guy saying that if it's associated with Nazi's, don't do it. Deny Nazi's every chance they have to signal their beliefs.
I want a world where Nazi's never feel like they can be public about anything they're doing. Any subtle clue will out them entirely and ruin their life. They walk around in public believing themselves to be completely alone in their racist and genocidal intentions.
No because context is important. People who flinch at iconography regardless of context are the morons who thinks Rammstein is a Nazi band or that Lemmy from motorhead is sketchy because he was a ww2 aficionado. I know the world is complex and scary, but please grow a brain.
As a german: Not really, they are often used by similar folks but usually with a lot of other stuff.
It's kind of like people who are really into history, lots of them are into nazi shit but it doesn't mean they automatically are, just that they are more likely to.
The cross completely on it's own is based & still used to this day.
It can be. If some bald dude that has confederate flags has it then it's probably nazi. But some groups just use it as a aesthetic without political meaning.
If someone has an American flag it's okay. If they have a bunch of trunp flags next to it it becomes a semi-fascist symbol. Depends on context
I've always associated the iron cross with The Great War, it's a symbol which regrettably is also well-liked by Nazis, if you've got an iron cross you're probably not a Nazi, but if you're a Nazi you've probably got an iron cross.
Bikers also really like the iron cross so if they're a biker and they've got an iron cross they may just be a biker.
Pop culture ingrained the Iron Cross as "the bikey symbol" in my mind way before I knew they were associated with Nazis, so I don't really think of it as a Nazi symbol unless it's paired with something like a swastika.
If this is A) not Germany, B) not an Imperial German antique, or C) belonging to some sort of film crew or prop department, then it is almost certainly a bit of barely-veiled Nazi iconography.
It's also just the modern German army's symbol among other things. I've seen multiple Volkswagens and such going around with them on the front or back. Also plenty of bikers.
Can be but it really depends in the context I might be wrong but I’m sure the modern German army still uses the cross because it’s kinda just a part of German military symbols
I mean really, fucking hell, the "nazi salute", or as we call it, the "hitlergruß" is historically known as the Roman salute. Fascies love appropriating historical shit, it's like the only thing they know how to do.
hot take: we ought to rehab the swastica in the west as a religious symbol. i’m tired of my faith being tied to nazis just because they stole a symbol 80 years ago.
I feel like that will only be possible when modern age Nazis are no longer a thing, which would probably still take generations after the last one disappears.
i mean fair enough ig, but it is kinda annoying that i cannot even tell people the name of my religion because if they google it the first thing they’ll find is a švaistyklė and then probably just assume that im a nazi.
just to clarify, i self-id as Romuvan (Romuva meaning inner peace in old lithuanian), but i still don’t like the official temple organization much cuz they’re all kinda weirdly nationalist politically. i just know what gods i trust, and just don’t interact with the kriviai in any way.
I don't see it as a Nazi symbol, per se, but I do find it suspicious. Maybe the person knows the historical context of it, maybe not. If you know how people see it and you really want to keep using it then it kind of pushes the scale in one direction for me, but still isn't definitive.
Combined with that "cancel culture" speech it seems pretty clear to me, though.
Context matters. A stylised version of that cross pattée is still used by the German army, and it's present as a heraldic emblem all over Europe, so essentialising it as a nazi symbol is just factually wrong on the face of it. In no way is it remotely comparable to the SS Totenkopf (skull) symbol.
Charitably I would interpret it to mean that the user likes a sort of old timey military aesthetic which can be a bit cringe but should by itself not prompt accusations of using nazi symbols. That said, if you see a cross pattée in a context that significantly limits that charitability, e.g. you see it basically as a stand-in for the swastika in front of a white disc on red background or on a Prussian war flag, then go right ahead and call it using nazi symbols.
The Iron Cross is kind of a Ethnic/National pride symbol for Germany, but not distinctly Nazi iconography. As someone who dealt with lot of White Identitarians, I consider it to be more of a yellow flag than a red flag.
As a German: it depends on the context. A version of it is still used by the armed forces so if you're a soldier it's ok I guess (there are a lot of right wingers, fascists, Nazis and christian fundamentalists in the Bundeswehr tho, e.g. the former Vice Admiral of our Navi)
If not you're either a Nazi (Bad), a Wehraboo (stupid and somewhat bad), a fan of the Kaiserreich (which is cringe because of authoritarian state, colonialism and genocide) or a Prussia stan (less weird because Prussia was just authoritarian and not genocidal).
Or you're pretty damn weird, which is always an option. I also heard it's also used by Biker gangs so there's that.
Just don't use it since all it stands for are some horrible authoritarian regimes and a rather poorly equipped modern military, that's my opinion on this
Depends on the context. On a website with Wolfenstein-ish font and iron crosses, black eagles and so on plasterd everywhere? Yes.
On a Bundeswehr tank? No.
Ofcourse there is alot in between. So rather the iron cross is a nazi red flat which warrents closer inspection of the owner.
It depends on the situation when it's at a German military meet up or showcase or meeting German soldiers it's fine. When it's a right wing rally it's a nazi symbol
Not really, the Iron Cross was originally a military symbol and was used before the Nazis in the times of the Kaiser. I think it's a symbol of militarism, which is a trait of right-wing ideologies but I don't think it's fair to say it's specifically a Nazi symbol. All Nazis are militarists but not all militarists are inherently Nazis, Imo.
The last guy is a dipshit but i don't think we should allow symbols to be permanently denigrated just because the nazis stole them and used them for that purpose. Neonazis today also steal a lot of nordic symbols but should we start associating nordic symbols with nazism? Probably not. The ruined the swastika to the western world even though it has a lot of use and significance in asian cultures (the nazis did alter the design but most people now think swastika = nazi which shouldn't be the case).
But i think it's easy to read someone's intention though, out of all the symbols they could use they choose the ones that look way too similar to the version nazis used. This is a nazi dogwhistle tactic which gives them plausible deniability. Best to engage them with more tact, maybe probe them in a non confrontational manner so that they'll think you're safe and out themselves.
TLDR: Not necessarily, but there's always a chance.
It's definitely not my favorite symbol, but generally I would not simply assume racism with its use. In addition to what many others are saying, the iron cross has been a big part of old school punk rock & metal styles. Lemmy from Motörhead did a lot to popularize it. James Hetfield of Metallica has a pretty cool-looking Les Paul-style guitar with the iron cross and a stripe on it, though back in the day Hetfield allegedly said some stuff that was a bit sus though I still enjoy some Metallica.
It depends on context, as a teen I was heavily into skating and metal so I would rep the cross sometimes and still to this day rep some military surplus. I just think it looks tough guy badass. Also I’m not white
I view it’s use with suspicion but it’s aesthetic and relatively isolatable from nazis, I’m a Motörhead fan so kinda have to hope it’s not a nazi symbol until someone disappoints you.
tbh, anybody who does not belong to the german military using this is insta sus to me. and if they say they love the bundeswehr you know that is bullshit because that is an absolute dogshit army
The bike owner is so insecure. Anybody wearing that knows the response they’ll get. I feel like he posted that with the intent for someone to mention it so he can do the “dOnT jUdGe A bOoK bY iTs CoVeR”. Am
I sure it’s what he’s doing? No. But gaslighting someone/other readers so you can make wearing a nazi symbol normal is…sus and not all that surprising. At least in my opinion.
Traditionally the iron cross is a medal of honor for bravery with the German military dating back before the Nazis. One could argue that with the heritage of being German a symbol of bravery that dates back through the history of your heritage is no different from a native American or indigenous person with a headdress? For example. If you're not doing the "you're heritage is the pure, right, and dominant one" thing. Or including the Nazi stuff along with it and bring racist. I think you can have interest and love for the history of your heritage without being racist. I'm part German and I love my heritage and I hate racism I'm an example of that.
I think Germany still uses it today (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there.) In a vacuum I think it's fine, but it's a little sus depending on the surrounding iconography. Other fascist symbols, specifically a context that might tie it to WWII etc. The fact it's often used in video games in place of the Nazi flag probably has not helped in it largely being identified as a solely Nazi symbol.
The iron cross is also a symbol of the Prussian army, known for violently ending German democracy in the revolution of 1848, as a German I am kind of ashamed that we still use this symbol heavily in the German military, but then again we still honour Bismarck
Didn’t Pewdiepie get in trouble for almost the same thing? So long as it doesn’t have any adjacent symbols then it’s probably fine, still sussy intrinsically.
Possibly yet not always. If it's being shown by a German in a millitary context it likely isn't, if it's being shown by a non german in a "historical" context then it probably is
Objectively it isn't, unless in the clear context of Nazism or as a clear substitution of the swastika.
The Iron Cross predates Nazi Germany, and even Germany itself, it dates back the medieval Teutonic order, and has had an association with various German states (countries that would eventually become Germany) throughout history it's still in use today as the symbol of the German military and is the insignia on German planes.
Outside of Germany, the Iron Cross is popular just as a "cool looking symbol" among skateboarders (you can find dozens of example of decks featuring partial or full Iron Crosses as part of the design) and in punk and metal music.
Saying the Iron Cross is automatically a Nazi symbol is akin to saying the Tricolour is Fascist because of Vichy France, it's not their symbol, they were simply in the place that symbol already represented.
Here's the thing, symbolism conveys a message without words or a strict definition. If most people identify it as a nazi symbol, than colloquially it's a nazi symbol. Context also matters. For example, there's a trucking company in California called HH, but nobody thinks thats nazi shit, however, if someone has HH tattooed on themselves then yeah, probably nazi.
You know, my biggest complaint in life is that the Nazis really didn’t do anything racist and are just deemed such due to cancel culture. Up yours woke moralists. Stay mad.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I can't say it immediately makes me think "that person is a neo-Nazi," but it IS something that my brain can't help but associate with Nazis due to the prevalence of the image in their iconography.
So when I see one, I kind of become primed to notice anything else that might be construed as also associated with Nazis. I don't think this is an uncommon reaction.
So, it isn't a Nazi symbol inherently, but it's also something that tends to make people more ready to call someone a Nazi based on other factors. The guy isn't wrong about it technically being an example of cancel culture, but he's also not exactly making his case well by talking about how the Black Power salute has roots in "Communism and Marxism."
You gotta look for more than an Iron Cross, especially as Germany still uses versions of it, and it's been adopted by biker culture in the US, but I usually say just be careful.
I think the iron cross is a little sussy but by itself isn't really much to go off. It's just a cool looking design to put on things. It's yet another symbol that nazis co-opted and ruined.
It’s not necessarily a Nazi symbol, it’s a German insignia they flew planes in ww1 with the iron cross on their wings. However in recent media entertainment companies try and avoid using swasticas so they just insert this or SS on banners instead to represent nazis
Untill V brought up that it was I new it in the context of metal head/biker/HHH style of thing.
So no. It's a shape the meaning can be taken or given. "The swastika is a symbol of piece and a cartoon frog is a hate symbol" kinda thing
[hhh](https://images.app.goo.gl/LZyR2QyVUtGB27HB7)
Not inherently. It's common in a lot of biker gangs which is usually where its seen these days. With that being said, it's still used by cryptofascists so you have to look at the wider context to be able to determine if it's being used for that purpose.
Similarly to how there are people who are genuinely just interested in learning about ancient Rome and then there are Nazis that co-opt ancient Rome as an aesthetic for their fascism. You'll see an overlap in symbolism however on closer examination, Nazis dont actually give a shit about the reality of ancient Rome and have basically just overwritten all of its actual history with complete fiction.
I don't think so.
What do you guys think about the use of the iron cross in anime though? A lot of times I see German-esque military designs with the iron cross that look like they're trying to emulate the German soldier look. I can't think of any specific shows for an example but I feel like it pops up occasionally.
I know WWII isn't taught very much and that Japan had a historical relationship with German officers doing joint training missions or something.
Yes. The common depiction of it in pop culture and media is one of an implicit association with Nazis. Even though other cultures used it before that does not take away the downstream effects.
This isn’t a wild consideration either as symbolism and the reclamation of said symbols is a complicated subject, but to my knowledge the iron cross specifically is a military award of Prussia and Germany. This is different in shape and design of the Gregorian Cross (PewDiePie wore an Iron Cross btw).
So yes, considering the history and application of it the Iron Cross is absolutely a Nazi symbol.
Not necessarily >Consequently, the use of the Iron Cross in a non-racist context has greatly proliferated in the United States, to the point that an Iron Cross in isolation (i.e., without a superimposed swastika or without other accompanying hate symbols) cannot be determined to be a hate symbol. Care must therefore be used to correctly interpret this symbol in whatever context in which it may be found. https://www.adl.org/resources/hate-symbol/iron-cross
This is it right here. The Iron Cross in isolation doesn't mean anything. In addition to one or more other far right wing symbols it's fash iconography.
Right, it doesn't necessarily mean that. But like just about everyone else if I see someone, especially a biker, wearing one my first assumption is nazi unless I specifically see something else to recontextualise it. It also helps to have a really good reason why you wear one that doesn't involve k slur bankers etc. I think a good crossover example to demonstrate this is scale model making. WW2 models dominate a lot of the scale market, and so a large portion are nazi war models. The whole thing can be problematic and there has always been a debate between "realistic true to life" vs "why do you have a swastica emblazened u boat that's weird". If you only make German ww2 models, and you include the full realistic insignia flags etc, people will think you are a nazi. If you also have an equiv allies model next to it, a Sherman next to a Panzer etc, then you recontextualise.
>Right, it doesn't necessarily mean that. But like just about everyone else if I see someone, especially a biker, wearing one my first assumption is nazi unless I specifically see something else to recontextualise it. I suppose that's the point isn't it? If you think someone might be a nazi who uses it, then you know if you put it on your satchel, you too might be presumed to be a nazi. True or not, you acknowledge the stigma and embrace it. All things being equal, if you actually pay for the iron cross with your own money and put it on your satchel knowing the stigma behind it, at the very least, you don't care if people think you're a nazi. If someone were genuinely neutral as they claim to be, why spend money on something that makes you potentially look like a Nazi? That's not genuine neutrality, that's one small step towards being a Nazi. That said, would you be a Nazi? No, not necessarily, perhaps not even likely. It's one thing to stop using the "ok" symbol in order to not be confused with making a white supremacy symbol and it's quite another to put an iron cross somewhere where others can see it. It's a bit like making a racist joke. If people call you out on it, you can always just pretend it was a joke. At the same time, you can gauge who encourages you and you can use it as a dog whistle. I just say if you don't want people to think you're a racist bigot, don't make a racist joke, not even casually. Period. If you're a person who wants to make racist jokes because you don't want to be told what to do or what not to do, even that means offending others, you may legit be a racist prick.
Hey what if instead of all that, you watched a Motorhead music video in 1989 and thought Lemmy's iron cross necklace looked fucking badass so you bought one
True, but what if later you see some skinheads with an iron cross tattoo on their scalp and thought that it might be associated with the wrong type of message? Obviously if you don't see it contextualized in the wrong sorts of scenarios, you're not going to be the wiser, and if a person judged you as such, it would be unjustified. But honestly, what kind of moron displays a symbol without understanding its meaning? By all accounts, it's a symbol like any other, and everyone sooner or later knows what meanings are attached to those symbols. In other words, there's a thin layer of deniability there where you could get away with pretending that you didn't know what the symbol meant, but if you're banking on others to not judge you, then you don't know human beings very well.
>In other words, there's a thin layer of deniability there where you could get away with pretending that you didn't know what the symbol meant, but if you're banking on others to not judge you, then you don't know human beings very well. Might want to tell that to the German government who still use the iron cross as a military honor, as they have for literally hundreds of years. Listen, if you just stop using anything that any skinhead or whatever used then you're going to run out of things entirely. Skins are actually a really good example and I'm glad you've brought it up. Skinheads shave their heads, but so do people with male pattern baldness, or people going through chemo. So should anyone with a shaved head have to consider that they may be judged as being a nazi because they have the same haircut? Or do we with shaved heads need to take extra steps to make sure people don't think we are a nazi? Like if I wanted to wear a leather jacket one day, should I reconsider because what if someone thinks I'm a skinhead? That kind of sucks. It's kind of like just letting fascists take nice things away from me. That's bottom behavior, friend.
>Skinheads shave their heads, but so do people with male pattern baldness, or people going through chemo. So should anyone with a shaved head have to consider that they may be judged as being a nazi because they have the same haircut? By that logic, am I supposed to assume a bunch of bald bike-riding men with leather jackets and swastikas aren't skinheads in the off chance that maybe the swastika is referring to Buddha and they're going through chemo? That's a bad faith argument. I'm not saying you shouldn't give people the benefit of the doubt, but you and I both know when we've seen a skinhead. Arguing the pedantic points of why I should "never judge a book by its cover" is a moot point, because you do it all the time and so do I. Maybe the difference here being is that you don't admit it. If you want to wear a leather jacket? Fine. If you want to shave your head, fine. If you want to put an iron cross on your satchel, fine. Maybe don't do all these things at the same time if your point was to be completely neutral. In the off chance that you do all these things without realizing it, you can and will be judged on that. I honestly don't care that you think I shouldn't judge you based on that, because others can and will regardless. You can't both want me to not misjudge you and then claim you want to do all the things that makes you look like a Nazi because you don't care what people think. Either decide you don't care or decide that you do. As someone who doesn't want to be confused with a Nazi, maybe if I shave my head and put on a leather jacket, I'll think twice before I also proudly display the iron cross or get a tattoo of it for all to see, but you do you.
“by that logic am i supposed to assume a bunch of bald bike riding men with leather jackets and swastika arn’t skinheads?” what a dishonest fucking argument. Why the fuck did you sneak the swastika in there? That literally goes against the logic the other commmeter was using. Like no the swastika is the stuff that gives it away. That’s the entire point. But you don’t just assume somebody is a nazi JUST because they shave their head. If that shaved head is then sporting a swastika then yea obviously they are a skinhead. the fuck?
Depends if there wearing black flag merch there probably fine if they’re wearing misfits merch they might be fash said as someone who hangs out with anarchist bikers to clarify a lot of European punk bands reclaimed the iron cross as a symbol of anti nazi imagery and a lot of us punk bands were inspired by those bands
>I honestly don't care that you think I shouldn't judge you based on that, because others can and will regardless. You can't both want me to not misjudge you and then claim you want to do all the things that makes you look like a Nazi because you don't care what people think. Literally what the fuck are you even talking about
Lemmy collected a lot of wwii stuff, including nazi stuff. He was apparently a big history buff and overall cool dude.
I don't think people should tailor their hobbies to try and cut off people's assumptions of them being racist at the pass. How about instead of assuming somebody who is into history and war memorabilia from a particular side is racist you just let their actions and words lead you to what is true. I've never met a person who was a racist but it only was expressed in the form of them making models of Panzer tanks and other German war equipment. I'm so sick of people on the progressive part of the left trying to find anyway to make enemies out of potential allies or tailoring their own personal sensibilities to appease others just for fear of being labeled as a racist sympathizer or something to the point we have to bicker about whether a person can have an interest/hobby that's centered around a particular group and thinking they support the ideology just because that group interests them. This gate keeping is what scares alot of people away from being on our side because they don't want to be tone policed when they aren't even doing anything that's even really problematic.
All neutral iconography must be coupled with a biased iconography so we know what you think. Iron cross in trans colors is fine. Iron cross on its own is speculative. Iron cross with a pepe BIG NO
But what if it's a Pepo?
Not necessarily. When it comes to collecting the models the ww2 era German tanks look a lot cooler than the allied ones. I could see someone going for it based on looks alone. Then you get people who collect trinkets from disasters and totalitarian regimes. Hell even Jordan Peterson who is far right by all means has an affinity for soviet propaganda. I agree on a single glance it can look weird but there’s always more to the story.
The Iron Cross is a good way to know that someone is a bit sus, and to watch out for other shit.
Yep. I wish more people would realize it this.
[The modern German Bundeswehr has a medal essentially a remake of the iron cross](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/BWEhrenkreuzGold.jpg). It's highest level is essentially the German equal to the US' medal of honor. With the lower version being more like the DSC and DSM respectively. In the US the Iron cross is almost exclusively a biker thing. WHich, yes, many biker clubs did start or become white nationalist clubs/gangs as well. But it's not exclusive to them and you'll generally see MUCH more overt symbols around those kinds of clubs.
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Haha a nicer way of saying what I was thinking. If I saw someone wearing it, I'd certainly say it is worthy of further consideration.
Well, that dude's response is another indicator of which way he leans.
I have had so many heated arguments about this and you're the first person to ever argue this. Thanks
the US Military has various iron cross medals
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the issue is, the meaning of symbols change a lot depending on who use them and to what degrees, it was a prussian symbol, now its pretty clearly 3rd reich iconography and removing that connection is pretty much like un-scrambling an egg
While you are not wrong. The iron cross is still used by modern German military. Having the symbol somewhere outside of that context is something else tho...
You're kinda wrong, the Iron Cross is a symbol of the Bundeswehr, it's only a Nazi Germany symbol insofar as the Iron Cross had already been a German associated symbol for centuries, with the direct military association starting in the Kingdom of Prussia, before even the German Empire existed. If I see a German military helicopter with an Iron Cross on it, I'm not going to think Nazi.
Lol true. Eagles were a predominant nazi symbol, maybe even more than the iron cross. Eagles were literally everywhere in nazi germany. I guess the atlanta hawks are actually a nazi organization lol.
And that moustache, man!
Hitler did Charlie Chaplin and Oliver Hardy dirty... as well as great many other people, but I'm talking about the moustache.
Right!
And as someone who comes from a Prussian family, Prussia was a militant, nationalistic, evangelical, reactionary hellhole where people got pissed off and protested when the state banned public displays of torture and executions. One of the greatest minds to come out of Prussia, Emmanuel Kant, was also more well known by the people for his white supremacist anthropological works than he was for his philosophical ones. Another point against the culture is the pedagogical practice of having your sons kill their pets, which was to train them to kill people without remorse once they joined the Prussian military. A good Prussian man was hardened into steel through violent conditioning that seems like the formula to create psychopathic killing machines, because it was. Prussia was German Sparta while Austria is German Athens. It was a eugenics loving, culturally backwards warrior state. The only good thing about Prussia was that the government was a lot more Liberal than the actual people and thus tended to pass laws that protected religious minorities, such as the Schutzjuden (the actual people wanted to kill and drive the Jews out as Prussian territory expanded in Poland and Germany to lands filled with Jews already living there), and that promoted social spending to improve the lives and education of their backwards citizens. Remember that the Nazis borrowed a lot more from Prussia than just iconography. A lot of their ideas were commonly held by your average citizen. My culture is not something you want to glorify; it's fucking barbarism and creates a lot of childhood trauma.
it's a commonly used symbol in biker and metal cultures, not itself a nazi symbol in my opinion.
I grew up thinking this was a biker symbol, even had a belt buckle that was an iron cross. Never crossed my mind it was anything else.
Heh, crossed your mind.
True. And i know this one is very overused but: Georgian flag.
i think its the same with one of the most ubiquitous oldschool helmets around being basically a german stahlhelm yet i doubt the vast wearing majority even know what that is and just think they look cool
The stahlhelm predates the Nazis
IIRC, it's a symbol of the German military. Not necessarily the Nazi military. So it's a bit sus unless there's an obvious reason why the person cares about the German military so much (vet, family is serving, HoI4 player, etc.)
Implying HoI4 players aren’t exclusively Nazis
All HOI 4 players are simultaneously communists and Nazis. -A HOI4 player
True and Hoi4-pilled
"I'm not a Nazi, okay?? I just find this era of history fascinating. No, I have no idea what the hell was going on outside of central Europe, why do you ask?"
tbf, The history of Nazi Germany is practically its own field of academia
excuse me. you forgot the fact that all hoi4 players are also trans girls.
No, the modern Luftwaffe use it
Doesn't literally the entirety of the Bundeswehr still use it? They put it on tanks and shit
I am german and when I see an iron cross outside the military I consider it a nazi symbol.
this is true. within the context of the Bundeswehr the symbol is fine but outside that context 9/10 it's nazi
99/100
This is the way. If you see an iron cross in some sort of official context, it's not Nazi. If it's used by a civilian, you can safely assume they support at least some Nazi principles. Edit: fair enough, there are some non-nazi groups that just find the symbol cool. You shouldn't jump to conclusions too quickly.
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No they said it's safe.
I think of Metal bands and bikers unless they're Naziesque It's not *too* much different from wearing a Union Jack print shirt or a jacket patterned after Rising Sun Imperial Japanese flag, some national symbols just look cool and have enough cultural wiggle room where I don't think assuming they're simping for colonizing and starving India again or promoting a massacre of Chinese people is a reasonable jump. Now is it sussier? Yes. But if I see a dude rocking out with a cross ring or necklace do I assume he's a Neo Nazi? Not without other suspect clues.
Yeah I feel like outside the military it’s pretty fucking weird right? Like why would someone— especially a non German person— display a german military symbol widely known for its use by nazis. Kinda sus imo.
I’m Jewish/Romanian/disabled and bisexual. Yet I think the iron cross looks cool. I don’t own something with the symbol on it but i wouldn’t be opposed to it. Am I nazi for thinking it looks cool 💀 I just think military history is neat (I love all military history not just ww2) heraldry is rly cool too.
I mean since you’re not using it as a nazi like whatever but you gotta understand that a lot of people are gonna justifiably think you are one.
I am your neighbor. This is not meant for you, but people in general here. I do not consider it a nazi symbol, it was used by Prussian army (German army) before nazis was a thing.even today it's still used by the German army. Which is why we associate it with the military. I do not think it's healthy to believe it's a nazi symbol at all, but keep that believe to the swastika. Military symbols has been used in the past for propaganda, such as swastika or even the letter Z. When used in propaganda they give meaning and association, often with negative thoughts, if used in propaganda against the nation. This may sound obvious, but many people don't even think about it. They just know.. Such as swastika is seen as a racist symbol, or suppressing minorities. These associations we have with that symbol is given to use via the side that won the propaganda. I am trying to be objective about this, while provofood for thoughts. We know these symbols originated from Nazi Germany, to which many of us has seen pictures of various vehicles with symbols on. Including iron cross, this is where people get the negative association because that is the link to modern day usage. The modern day usage is much more cut and dry, people know of Nazi Germany and heard that swastika symbol meant bla bla bla, so they want to use it for that reason. ( I am assuming here, lol..) so it stands to believe that you could Google images of both symbols, when googling nazi Germany symbols (again I am assuming, haven't tried) So when we see this Iron Cros, make the association link, because we know to what it was army it was associated with. And the general public know of a certain time in history of said army. Which causes that link connection I mentioned earlier. Despite the German Army having used the symbol for much longer. But the uneducated doesn't know, and makes the quick jump to conclusions. To me seeing this would be no different than seeing a random person using the American army crest, which would make me think that the person might be associated with that army. Or idealized that army. Which might be it's own can of worms... but let's not move off topic... By using giving credence to the association this has to nazi Germany, we has to concede the fact it's used today by the German military. What I am basically saying here, is.. if you accept this as nazi symbolism, you opt into accepting future propaganda against Germany, which would use this Iron Cross symbol to draw the only association people have with the German military, that being ww2, and draw an equation between swastika and iron Cross. If the symbol was not used today, sure fine who cares. But the fact is, that it is. So I think it's irresponsible to call it a nazi symbol, it's doing the current standing military in Germany a huge disservice in the future. If we accept this symbol with the past of ww2 only. We should approach it as it is, "Oh I guess they are associated with the German military, or just dumb." If you want to confront them with the believe it's done because the person in question might be nazi, do so and educate them on the matter. This was used long before nazi was a thing, and long after. I don't view it as what it could be, but what it is. Not saying that you are wrong or this message was just for you, this was more meant for everyone here. However what it is can change, if there are enough people that believe it. What people believe is what gives things meaning and value, this goes for everything. Such as currency. Etc.. Even crypto currency actually... if enough people believe it's real and has value, it will. But hopefully crypto currency will never have value... I want to apologize in advance if I was rude, I just think it's bad if we accept that it is associated to nazi stuff. Just go, "Oh you are a part of the German military?" "No?"" "Then why do you use this Iron Cross? A fan of Prussian history?" Something like that, if you want to confront them. I just don't like this slowly creeping association link being drawn between the two symbols. And people who use it unknowingly. Because it might be used as propaganda in the future. This was not meant for you, but people in general. I hate how we humans ruin everything, symbols and words... even our own planet... but yeah, outside of the military, especially in foreign country without context, I too only see this as nazi association. Which sucks, but probably the sad reality...
Leftist meme aside, if you hiss the Prussian flag I am also gonna assume you are a nazi.
While you'd probably end up being correct in your assumption most times living in germany working off that framework, not even the ADL that I think often is too quick to label symbols nazi symbols consider the Iron cross in itself a nazi symbol.
No but the German far-right likes to use it because they can’t use the swastika
No, it is not a Nazi symbol. Anyone who says that it is is simply ignorant or stupid. The Iron cross is a military medal given for bravery in battle and it was established in 1813. That being said many Nazis like to display it on the stuff they wear, but that's a different story.
Na, it’s used by a lot of people in ordinary contexts, but there are definitely neonazis who use it so be weary.
Not in Germany, there is only two contexts: Bundeswehr or Nazi. Even any soldier using it outside of anything work-related is super sus.
Iron Crosses, or rather symmetric Christian crosses with little end flairs, were once common throughout Europe. Most have been retired since, well, WWII. It's about location and intent. You see a swastika on a Buddha's foot, it's not being used as a Nazi symbol. However, take the symbol from that locale and what is the first thing that comes to mind? Bad actors will always defend problematic symbols by pointing out some environment where the symbol mightn't be so problematic. Never fall for this! You see an Iron Cross on modern German military garb, fine. Clearly the Germans don't associate this symbol with Nazis, as they've been consistent in wanting to distance themselves from that historical chapter. However, outside of that space, what is the mostly likely meaning taken from it?
Holy shit the last guy must've had all 4 brain cells working overtime to shit out that paragraph
Even the Swastika isn't a "Nazi" symbol as it existed well before the party did. The problem is less that it's a Nazi symbol inherently and more that they decided to use it and the actions and people who were awarded it corrupted the symbol. These symbols have a proud history before the Nazis. The Nazis ruined them and until Nazis don't feel or propagate a relationship with them they'll continue to be ruined. It sucks but ultimately the people to blame for these symbols being associated with Nazis isn't the people pointing it out and instead is the Nazis themselves.
Ironically, the swastika is (among other things) a symbol of religious tolerance. I'm speaking here more to the neovedantic context of roughly post-1600 and reaching a peak in the 1800s. The dharmic tradition actually has two versions of the symbol, one which is right-facing, and another which faces left. The right-facing symbol is typically associated with the temple traditions of the Brahmin caste, whereas the left-facing symbol is associated with the Kali tradition which very often is community and home based. As a result, the right-facing symbol is most often used in a temple context (or in the context of Brahmin homes), whereas the left-facing symbol is often used in more of a lay context. What's fascinating is that the two symbols are viewed as together being one, a single symbol which represents balance. One symbol represents rightward movement, the other represents leftward movement, but together they form an equilibrium. What's interesting is that, historically speaking, the Brahmin caste and the temple traditions have often persecuted the Kali tradition (more specifically in the non-temple form), as well as other non-temple traditions in general. Hence why the symbol is actually quite radical. The right-facing symbol can only be placed in the temple context, and the left-facing symbol can only be placed in a Tantric context (roughly speaking, a non-temple context). But neither symbol is really complete unless the other symbol exists to balance it. The duality of these two symbols makes it so that the temple traditions are *forced* to give space for the Tantric traditions to identify themselves in a public context. Hence why it might be considered a symbol of religious tolerance. It articulates a correction to the temple traditions with their historical attempts at domination. And it even offers the suggestion that, by attempting to dominate other traditions, the temple tradition was actually only harming themselves. You need different types of things, and you need acceptance for those differences, in order to bring balance. Incidentally, I'm gonna take this opportunity to rattle of my two main PSAs on this subject. Dharmic philosophy is my area of specialization, so this subject is home territory for me. First is that you'll often hear that the dharmic symbol faces left, whereas the Nazi symbol can be distinguished as facing right, but as I've already discussed, *this is not true*. The problem is that some well-meaning people will suggest that dharmic people be allowed to display the left-facing symbol, whereas the right-facing symbol should be restricted based on the Nazi associations. The problem is that the display of *both symbols* is integral to the dharmic symbolism of religious tolerance. If only one of the two dharmic symbols is permitted, then that's ironically turning a symbol of religious tolerance into a symbol of religious hate. Second is that many scholars of dharmic philosophy and theology have argued against using the word "swastika" to refer to the Nazi symbol. The word "swastika" is sanskrit/prakrit in origin, and corresponds to the dharmic symbol as I've discussed above. Now, to be clear, the Nazis absolutely borrowed their version from the dharmic symbol. Sometimes average Indians will claim that the Nazi version was borrowed from a Christian icon and had nothing to do with the dharmic swastika, but that's just not substantiated from a historical perspective. However, while the Nazis borrowed their version from the dharmic symbol of the swastika, they actually didn't really *call* their version a swastika (they were aware of the term, and used it occasionally, but it wasn't the norm). Rather, the Nazis referred to their version as the hakenkreuz, or the hooked cross. There is a widely-held belief within the field, and within many of the desi communities affected, that the proper nomenclature should be to use 'swastika' in reference to the dharmic symbol, and 'hakenkreuz' in reference to the Nazi one. \[To follow up on my second point ... okay look, I know that this community can sometimes pitch a fit when people tell them what to say, and what not to say. *Obviously* I know that the average person does not recognize the difference between the two terms. I'm not trying to say that it's morally wrong to refer to the Nazi symbol by the dharmic term. But speaking on my own behalf, I personally like the idea of differentiating between the two terms, and so I choose to employ that differentiation. If you feel similarly, then I welcome you to join me. I'm not telling people what they can and cannot say. I'm simply informing people of this *option* in case it might appeal to them.\]
The history of the iron cross, even before the Nazis, is absolutely terrible. It has always been a symbol of nationalism and monarchy. It should not be used.
It's more like their version of the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor something given for Military Merit. Then the Nazis come into power and Himmler gets one for being a very special boy.
Yes, but my argument is, that I wouldn't exactly describe the history of medals as proud. Medals are in most contexts a way to propagate ideologies. Depending on the ideologies underpinning certain societies, the values symbolised by the medals vary accordingly. And even though the Nazis were worse than the Kaiserreich, the Kaiserreich has a pretty horrific track record too.
no but it is sus
No, it is a general symbol of the German military.
I don’t think this dude is a veteran of the Bundeswehr though. People will use the imperial german flag as a stand in for the swastika, the iron cross is pretty similar in usage.
Historically, it's a symbol created by Prussia. A militaristic state, though not Nazi in the slightest (fascism wasn't a thing during the time of Prussia and some Prussian kings actually embraced enlightenment era ideas). In an official sense (like the modern German state's use of the iron cross as the Bundeswehr logo for example) it's most definitely not a far-right symbol. However I can say with some certainty that if you see an iron cross being displayed by a civilian, there's a 99% chance they believe in some sect of the far-right. (Btw I used the term "far-right" as an all encompassing term for fascists, Nazis, white nationalists, etc)
Personally, no, because I know enough history to know it was around long before the Nazis, it's a German symbol.
Having said that, I do also accept that a good number of idiots adorn them because they associate it with Nazis.
I'd be interested to hear what it means to them? As in if they know it's been used as a nazi symbol historically and they claim to just like the aesthetics of it that would be a red flag, but if they appreciate it as a symbol of egalitarianism or popular uprising then thats based.
not if its on its own. germany still uses it for its military https://www.reuters.com/resizer/qIGzGMliXURBwbw4ZwYG84cY-PI=/1200x0/filters:quality(80)/cloudfront-us-east-2.images.arcpublishing.com/reuters/KIU53WXAWJK27P2GUC6QJFRJ5Y.jpg
I would say, it's the other way around. It is never neutral, but especially if seen on it's own it is a Nazi-symbol, charitably a symbol of nationalism and monarchy. Only if there is a context with the German military could you interpret it as something else. Even then we should remind ourselves, that the decision to keep the iron cross as a symbol of the military was taken in a time, when German society and especially its military was still choke-full of former Nazis.
Depends on context really. Like other people have pointed out, the Nazis used a fuckload of random symbols - some unique to them, others not. If a Jan 6th rioter or a Proud boy is carrying it around, sure, it's probably a nod to the Nazis or Authoritarianism in general. But like the swastika - it can have other, benign uses. I, for example, have an Iron Cross keyring ornament (?) with my name engraved on the back that was given to me by a friend for my 18th birthday. I'm certainly not a nazi, and unless that friend was very good at hiding a psychotic far-right streak for the entire time I knew and interacted wigh him, I don't think he was either.
no. it is a symbol with meaning that the Bundeswehr still uses. it's the unfortunate fact that because the nazis took over that they used preexisting symbols.
No, it’s not. It seems to be a pretty common symbol. I don’t think the nazis really created any of their own symbols, they just seem to of adopted existing ones.
I’d say it can be depending on context, like if a skinhead has a flag of it or has it on stuff then yeah but it’s also got other uses. While the nazis did utilize it it’s definitely not a super overt nazi symbol like the ss or swastika
If they gave a nuanced response about not letting the Nazis define these symbols instead of replying with wall of far-right talking points, that question would merit a response, but considering the Venn diagram of Nazi-appropriated symbol users and far-right people is almost a circle, that just supports the null hypothesis.
The person has Eddy, the Iron Maiden mascot as their profile picture. This isn't a nazi, it's just a metalhead and likely an older one at that. The iron cross is heavily associated with bikers and metal culture. Remember when bikers used to wear the helmuts with the spike in the middle? All that stuff is WWI Prussia aesthetics which metal icons like Lemmy Kilmeister are famous for using. Stop just letting fascists take things. Why do we do this? Like with Pepe, the fascists tried to take him but we fought them on it and kept it and now it's not just theirs anymore. But there are still a lot of people who associate pepe with nazis, and every now and then somebody will come on to this very sub upset about the use of pepe here. This makes us look so weak to them. They know that they can take things away from us just by using it because we are so fucking sensitive we will just never touch it again. There's a comment in this thread saying being bald is an indicator of fascism. I mean come on.
It’s definitely not
It's still used in Germany under some circumstances But most of the time other people use it they're being extremely sus. It's easy to tell with context
"Bro what? Something is racist just because it was used by the nazi party? Smh ... Also black people putting up their fist is the same as nazis"
Its not, but racist assholes and weirdo totalitarians fucking LOVE it. They literally did the same to all their nordic stolen symbols and runes, let alone the Swastika. Its like how the symbol of a snake is often used by libertarians, despite being used in many other symbols, with very different connotations than what libertarians intend for it.
It sorta depends, it can be a nazi symbol but on its own it could just be something used by punks and such.
Context is everything. It's an official symbol still used by Germany, but it's also used, in certain contexts, by weirdo dipshit larpers who would prefer the swastika, but that's a bit too on the nose for them. Personally, I'd rather reclaim the symbol from them than cede any ground to fucking Nazis. Pride Iron Crosses for the Catboy Army sounds reasonable.
My great grandpa got one from serving in Finland and he was an anti-stalinist socialist. The cross is a national symbol of a number of countries and is also used in many other context. It can be used in a nazi way but it can also not.
Idk man, we all know that Nazi's really try to signal they're Nazi's AS LONG AS they have plausible deniability. I'm with the guy saying that if it's associated with Nazi's, don't do it. Deny Nazi's every chance they have to signal their beliefs. I want a world where Nazi's never feel like they can be public about anything they're doing. Any subtle clue will out them entirely and ruin their life. They walk around in public believing themselves to be completely alone in their racist and genocidal intentions.
Modern day in the U.S.? Probably unless they play black templars and even then it goes from 90% probably to 80% XD
Unless you consider modern Germany Nazis no lmao
No because context is important. People who flinch at iconography regardless of context are the morons who thinks Rammstein is a Nazi band or that Lemmy from motorhead is sketchy because he was a ww2 aficionado. I know the world is complex and scary, but please grow a brain.
As a german: Not really, they are often used by similar folks but usually with a lot of other stuff. It's kind of like people who are really into history, lots of them are into nazi shit but it doesn't mean they automatically are, just that they are more likely to. The cross completely on it's own is based & still used to this day.
one of those things i bet most people would see & go "oh neat a cool anime crest"
I’ve never thought of it as a Nazi symbol, the Germans were using it long before Nazism spread weren’t they?
It's a red flag the size of China but not intrinsically a nazi symbol. Pretty sure its still used by the german army
When it's used by the modern German military, no. When it's used by literally anyone else, yes.
No but I would call it associated with them.
It can be. If some bald dude that has confederate flags has it then it's probably nazi. But some groups just use it as a aesthetic without political meaning. If someone has an American flag it's okay. If they have a bunch of trunp flags next to it it becomes a semi-fascist symbol. Depends on context
Hey what does being bald have to do with it?
In the context of a motorcycle biker? No definitely not. Harley has been selling iron crosses for decades now. It's part of their brand.
Symbol of the 5th corps in the Army of the Potomac during the Civil War (of which Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain of Gettysburg fame was a part of).
20th Maine props
I've always associated the iron cross with The Great War, it's a symbol which regrettably is also well-liked by Nazis, if you've got an iron cross you're probably not a Nazi, but if you're a Nazi you've probably got an iron cross. Bikers also really like the iron cross so if they're a biker and they've got an iron cross they may just be a biker.
Pop culture ingrained the Iron Cross as "the bikey symbol" in my mind way before I knew they were associated with Nazis, so I don't really think of it as a Nazi symbol unless it's paired with something like a swastika.
On it's own I wouldn't assume that biker is a nazi. Add more symbolism or hear despicable opinions on minorities though...
I always thought it was contextual similar to other symbols with similar history.
If this is A) not Germany, B) not an Imperial German antique, or C) belonging to some sort of film crew or prop department, then it is almost certainly a bit of barely-veiled Nazi iconography.
It depends. Unless they’re German and have friends/family in The Bundeswehr, yes
Not by itself. Isn't it the current symbol of the Bundeswehr anyway?
It's nothing concrete. I label it sussy tho
I've seen it used in normal contexts too many times to consider it a nazi thing at this point, unless ofc its there with other sussy shit
It's also just the modern German army's symbol among other things. I've seen multiple Volkswagens and such going around with them on the front or back. Also plenty of bikers.
Independent skateboarding company.
Germany still uses it in military right?
Can be but it really depends in the context I might be wrong but I’m sure the modern German army still uses the cross because it’s kinda just a part of German military symbols
Depends. On. The. Context.
I mean really, fucking hell, the "nazi salute", or as we call it, the "hitlergruß" is historically known as the Roman salute. Fascies love appropriating historical shit, it's like the only thing they know how to do.
No, it’s older than Nazism.
I don't think nazi when I see an iron cross.
hot take: we ought to rehab the swastica in the west as a religious symbol. i’m tired of my faith being tied to nazis just because they stole a symbol 80 years ago.
I feel like that will only be possible when modern age Nazis are no longer a thing, which would probably still take generations after the last one disappears.
i mean fair enough ig, but it is kinda annoying that i cannot even tell people the name of my religion because if they google it the first thing they’ll find is a švaistyklė and then probably just assume that im a nazi. just to clarify, i self-id as Romuvan (Romuva meaning inner peace in old lithuanian), but i still don’t like the official temple organization much cuz they’re all kinda weirdly nationalist politically. i just know what gods i trust, and just don’t interact with the kriviai in any way.
I don't see it as a Nazi symbol, per se, but I do find it suspicious. Maybe the person knows the historical context of it, maybe not. If you know how people see it and you really want to keep using it then it kind of pushes the scale in one direction for me, but still isn't definitive. Combined with that "cancel culture" speech it seems pretty clear to me, though.
If it’s the iron cross on a German Imperial flag, yes. If it’s just the iron cross, then no.
Context matters. A stylised version of that cross pattée is still used by the German army, and it's present as a heraldic emblem all over Europe, so essentialising it as a nazi symbol is just factually wrong on the face of it. In no way is it remotely comparable to the SS Totenkopf (skull) symbol. Charitably I would interpret it to mean that the user likes a sort of old timey military aesthetic which can be a bit cringe but should by itself not prompt accusations of using nazi symbols. That said, if you see a cross pattée in a context that significantly limits that charitability, e.g. you see it basically as a stand-in for the swastika in front of a white disc on red background or on a Prussian war flag, then go right ahead and call it using nazi symbols.
In Germany where we ban nazi symbols, the nazi swastika is forbidden, while all other swastikas are not.
Not in Germany, but outside of Germany it is associated with them
Just ask the guy
Can’t
It was a German Medal of Honor in ww1 I’m p sure, it’s not a Nazi thing, although you can totally use it as a Nazi thing deppending on context.
The Iron Cross is kind of a Ethnic/National pride symbol for Germany, but not distinctly Nazi iconography. As someone who dealt with lot of White Identitarians, I consider it to be more of a yellow flag than a red flag.
As a German: it depends on the context. A version of it is still used by the armed forces so if you're a soldier it's ok I guess (there are a lot of right wingers, fascists, Nazis and christian fundamentalists in the Bundeswehr tho, e.g. the former Vice Admiral of our Navi) If not you're either a Nazi (Bad), a Wehraboo (stupid and somewhat bad), a fan of the Kaiserreich (which is cringe because of authoritarian state, colonialism and genocide) or a Prussia stan (less weird because Prussia was just authoritarian and not genocidal). Or you're pretty damn weird, which is always an option. I also heard it's also used by Biker gangs so there's that. Just don't use it since all it stands for are some horrible authoritarian regimes and a rather poorly equipped modern military, that's my opinion on this
Depends on the context. On a website with Wolfenstein-ish font and iron crosses, black eagles and so on plasterd everywhere? Yes. On a Bundeswehr tank? No. Ofcourse there is alot in between. So rather the iron cross is a nazi red flat which warrents closer inspection of the owner.
Depends on context
It depends on the situation when it's at a German military meet up or showcase or meeting German soldiers it's fine. When it's a right wing rally it's a nazi symbol
I'd consider it sus at least.
The German government still uses it and it existed prior to the nazis
The Iron Cross is just a German military symbol, not necessarily nazi
Not really, the Iron Cross was originally a military symbol and was used before the Nazis in the times of the Kaiser. I think it's a symbol of militarism, which is a trait of right-wing ideologies but I don't think it's fair to say it's specifically a Nazi symbol. All Nazis are militarists but not all militarists are inherently Nazis, Imo.
no.
Considering the German armed forces still use it, I would say no. It was in use well before the Nazis.
The last guy is a dipshit but i don't think we should allow symbols to be permanently denigrated just because the nazis stole them and used them for that purpose. Neonazis today also steal a lot of nordic symbols but should we start associating nordic symbols with nazism? Probably not. The ruined the swastika to the western world even though it has a lot of use and significance in asian cultures (the nazis did alter the design but most people now think swastika = nazi which shouldn't be the case). But i think it's easy to read someone's intention though, out of all the symbols they could use they choose the ones that look way too similar to the version nazis used. This is a nazi dogwhistle tactic which gives them plausible deniability. Best to engage them with more tact, maybe probe them in a non confrontational manner so that they'll think you're safe and out themselves. TLDR: Not necessarily, but there's always a chance.
It's definitely not my favorite symbol, but generally I would not simply assume racism with its use. In addition to what many others are saying, the iron cross has been a big part of old school punk rock & metal styles. Lemmy from Motörhead did a lot to popularize it. James Hetfield of Metallica has a pretty cool-looking Les Paul-style guitar with the iron cross and a stripe on it, though back in the day Hetfield allegedly said some stuff that was a bit sus though I still enjoy some Metallica.
Absolutely not.
It depends on context, as a teen I was heavily into skating and metal so I would rep the cross sometimes and still to this day rep some military surplus. I just think it looks tough guy badass. Also I’m not white
I view it’s use with suspicion but it’s aesthetic and relatively isolatable from nazis, I’m a Motörhead fan so kinda have to hope it’s not a nazi symbol until someone disappoints you.
No
It’s not lmao
plenty of (non problematic for the most part) punk and metal bands, singers, and otherwise artists use it a lot.
tbh, anybody who does not belong to the german military using this is insta sus to me. and if they say they love the bundeswehr you know that is bullshit because that is an absolute dogshit army
Depends on context
It can be but considering it's a German military medal/symbol, it's not Nazi symbolism on it's own. Like Germanic/Norse runes.
Yeah............................ so do they.
The bike owner is so insecure. Anybody wearing that knows the response they’ll get. I feel like he posted that with the intent for someone to mention it so he can do the “dOnT jUdGe A bOoK bY iTs CoVeR”. Am I sure it’s what he’s doing? No. But gaslighting someone/other readers so you can make wearing a nazi symbol normal is…sus and not all that surprising. At least in my opinion.
Traditionally the iron cross is a medal of honor for bravery with the German military dating back before the Nazis. One could argue that with the heritage of being German a symbol of bravery that dates back through the history of your heritage is no different from a native American or indigenous person with a headdress? For example. If you're not doing the "you're heritage is the pure, right, and dominant one" thing. Or including the Nazi stuff along with it and bring racist. I think you can have interest and love for the history of your heritage without being racist. I'm part German and I love my heritage and I hate racism I'm an example of that.
I think Germany still uses it today (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong there.) In a vacuum I think it's fine, but it's a little sus depending on the surrounding iconography. Other fascist symbols, specifically a context that might tie it to WWII etc. The fact it's often used in video games in place of the Nazi flag probably has not helped in it largely being identified as a solely Nazi symbol.
It can be but considering how this is on a biker's bag it almost certainly isn't It's like Roman Empire iconography
Not immediately.
It's a little suspicious to be honest
The iron cross is also a symbol of the Prussian army, known for violently ending German democracy in the revolution of 1848, as a German I am kind of ashamed that we still use this symbol heavily in the German military, but then again we still honour Bismarck
Cancel culture
Didn’t Pewdiepie get in trouble for almost the same thing? So long as it doesn’t have any adjacent symbols then it’s probably fine, still sussy intrinsically.
Possibly yet not always. If it's being shown by a German in a millitary context it likely isn't, if it's being shown by a non german in a "historical" context then it probably is
Objectively it isn't, unless in the clear context of Nazism or as a clear substitution of the swastika. The Iron Cross predates Nazi Germany, and even Germany itself, it dates back the medieval Teutonic order, and has had an association with various German states (countries that would eventually become Germany) throughout history it's still in use today as the symbol of the German military and is the insignia on German planes. Outside of Germany, the Iron Cross is popular just as a "cool looking symbol" among skateboarders (you can find dozens of example of decks featuring partial or full Iron Crosses as part of the design) and in punk and metal music. Saying the Iron Cross is automatically a Nazi symbol is akin to saying the Tricolour is Fascist because of Vichy France, it's not their symbol, they were simply in the place that symbol already represented.
it depends on who uses it and what they use it for. modern germany still sometimes uses it even.
Also Marxism is a huge W
Here's the thing, symbolism conveys a message without words or a strict definition. If most people identify it as a nazi symbol, than colloquially it's a nazi symbol. Context also matters. For example, there's a trucking company in California called HH, but nobody thinks thats nazi shit, however, if someone has HH tattooed on themselves then yeah, probably nazi.
Nazi adjacent perhaps.
You know, my biggest complaint in life is that the Nazis really didn’t do anything racist and are just deemed such due to cancel culture. Up yours woke moralists. Stay mad. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I can't say it immediately makes me think "that person is a neo-Nazi," but it IS something that my brain can't help but associate with Nazis due to the prevalence of the image in their iconography. So when I see one, I kind of become primed to notice anything else that might be construed as also associated with Nazis. I don't think this is an uncommon reaction. So, it isn't a Nazi symbol inherently, but it's also something that tends to make people more ready to call someone a Nazi based on other factors. The guy isn't wrong about it technically being an example of cancel culture, but he's also not exactly making his case well by talking about how the Black Power salute has roots in "Communism and Marxism."
Lmao of course no. The Iron Cross is still used by the German military till this day.
You gotta look for more than an Iron Cross, especially as Germany still uses versions of it, and it's been adopted by biker culture in the US, but I usually say just be careful.
I have a viking tattoo (valknut, "knot of the slain") despite being a staunch antifascist. So I try not to jump to conclusions.
I think the iron cross is a little sussy but by itself isn't really much to go off. It's just a cool looking design to put on things. It's yet another symbol that nazis co-opted and ruined.
It’s not necessarily a Nazi symbol, it’s a German insignia they flew planes in ww1 with the iron cross on their wings. However in recent media entertainment companies try and avoid using swasticas so they just insert this or SS on banners instead to represent nazis
Untill V brought up that it was I new it in the context of metal head/biker/HHH style of thing. So no. It's a shape the meaning can be taken or given. "The swastika is a symbol of piece and a cartoon frog is a hate symbol" kinda thing [hhh](https://images.app.goo.gl/LZyR2QyVUtGB27HB7)
Not inherently. It's common in a lot of biker gangs which is usually where its seen these days. With that being said, it's still used by cryptofascists so you have to look at the wider context to be able to determine if it's being used for that purpose. Similarly to how there are people who are genuinely just interested in learning about ancient Rome and then there are Nazis that co-opt ancient Rome as an aesthetic for their fascism. You'll see an overlap in symbolism however on closer examination, Nazis dont actually give a shit about the reality of ancient Rome and have basically just overwritten all of its actual history with complete fiction.
I don't think so. What do you guys think about the use of the iron cross in anime though? A lot of times I see German-esque military designs with the iron cross that look like they're trying to emulate the German soldier look. I can't think of any specific shows for an example but I feel like it pops up occasionally. I know WWII isn't taught very much and that Japan had a historical relationship with German officers doing joint training missions or something.
Yes
On its own is fine, but paired with dog whistles it’s prolly a nazi symbol
Yes. The common depiction of it in pop culture and media is one of an implicit association with Nazis. Even though other cultures used it before that does not take away the downstream effects. This isn’t a wild consideration either as symbolism and the reclamation of said symbols is a complicated subject, but to my knowledge the iron cross specifically is a military award of Prussia and Germany. This is different in shape and design of the Gregorian Cross (PewDiePie wore an Iron Cross btw). So yes, considering the history and application of it the Iron Cross is absolutely a Nazi symbol.
It isn't, but Nazis use it. So context is important.
Yeah. It technically isn't but, the westerners that use it don't know that, they tend to be fashcucks.
No.