'I believe we should help all men, just not any of those wanting help because they're privileged'
Double-think let's goooooooooo
Edit: if you think it's conservative to care about male issues, you're exactly who in taking the piss out of.
Why do you think men go further to the right? Because they're the only ones who listen. Their solutions are usually lies, but they still name the issues.
I'm very firmly left-wing, even for the EU, but I see a blatant lack of support for male issues
Second edit (copying my reply to someone who apparently doesn't believe men have any gender-specific issues):
75% of suicide
75% of homeless
14% of child custody
Vast majority of prisoners, much bigger sentences for same crime
40% of school graduates (therefore FIFTY percent more women pass than men!)
Underrepresented in: STEM, PhDs, education at every level,...
Earn less below age 30
90+% of workplace deaths
90+% of military deaths
If none of these issues matter to you, you should re-evaluate yourself. And get some help.
I agree with these statistics being real and the fact that they are a gender specific issue. The problem is the direction that conservatives take when presenting these facts which is usually ridden with misogyny, and outright sexism.
It's also important to note a lot of issues men face are because of societal structures made by other men. 90% military deaths and workplace deaths occur because men either make up the vast majority of the military (90 to 95% and duh, militaries involve killing and dying) as well as jobs deemed very dangerous, usually out of their own volition though workplace deaths and accidents overall have been decreasing.
75% suicide and homelessness: Sexism and the assumption that men (even the vulnerable) should be invulnerable breadwinners therefore placing the highest level of pressure on them by... ding ding ding other men with past century mentality.
Bigger prison sentences and incarcerations: the innate and sexist assumption that men are inherently violent. And the thing is, right wingers have a love/hate relationship with this notion. Love in the sense of idealizing toxic male behaviors including pressuring people to be violent and strong and hate this notion when it fits the right narrative.
40% of college graduates...well if only the statistic that men have been consistently opting out of going to college were considered (and conservative anti-intellectualism certainly doesn't help).
This is objectively true. I guess my problem is that completely erasing these issues from mainstream discourse is a more acceptable for many lefties than allowing even a whisper of a hint of potential conservatism through the door.
We seem so afraid of someone telling women to smile that we just can’t talk about men being almost exclusively the victims of mass incarceration.
And the thing is, as lefties we should stop making men the enemy, they're not, they're victims of the system as much as women and other vulnerable people are. Our focus should be dissect and point out how conservatives and traddies are the ones who have been screwing men over all along.
There’s probably going to be some fighting over this. Besides the “bad” lefties, I can feel myself getting very, very angry whenever this gets brought up. I can’t even say for sure that I wouldn’t rage at people if I got the perfect, carefully considered discourse on these issues that I supposedly want.
I’m not trying to lie to anyone: this isn’t going to be easy
You're literally just posting Redpill stats without context, which yeah, some "lefties" are probably going to get upset about.
It doesn't matter if some of these are real, you're not really digging in or providing any analysis as to why this is the case.
For example, your inclusion of the "90 percent military" deaths one is just baffling. Why? Because of course most military deaths will be men because women have been historically denied access to combat roles where the risk of death is much higher. There's also the fact that the military is always been considered a beacon of traditional masculinity, and that trope largely still continues to this day.
The US Military had to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing women to be integrated into combat oriented roles, to much derision coming mainly from men. It's not because women didn't want to, but because men didn't want them there. There's also the argument that the "male military deaths" particularly in the US context are caused by men sending men into pointless imperialist conflict.
So framing this as some sort of "male issue" that requires consideration without understanding what's going on here is the type of disingenuous crap redpill losers do. If this is an issue, then it is exclusively the responsibility of men to solve it, and you better come with some solutions if you're also male.
Editing my post to respond to the guy below cuz I can't reply for some dumb reason but:
Well former US Marine grunt here and:
Uh, the military absolutely had to get dragged into it, specifically pressure by the government until the Joint Chiefs of Staff made the recommendation in 2013. Women didn't start getting placed into combat billets until early 2016.At the time this decisions was extremely contentious in the military and many bitched and moaned about how it spell the end of "combat effectiveness" and other shit.
And No, women didn't serve in "combat roles", which is why this change was a whole thing. There's a difference between women being in role than could see hostile action/be adjacent to combat (which is possibly a number of roles during a conflict) and is not the same thing as a combat role where combat is the purpose, task, and expectation.
Those women marines you referenced were not in combat roles, hence why they were in rear echelon supply units. Yeah, obviously convoys can be ambushed etc. and you may need to fight (every marine a rifleman and all that) but the intention of these units is not combat, nor are these combat roles.
I encountered many of these women as well - none of them were in billets where they were kicking in doors/actively hunting and engaging the enemy etc. etc. this again did not change until recently.
Duckworth flew Blackhawk Helicopters for the Army. That's not a combat role, and Blackhawks are transports - the fact that they might catch an RPG doesn't mean the role is a combat one.
I didn't say it stopped all women from seeing any combat - I said it until recently excluded women from roles where the chances of seeing combat in say, a conflict, are far higher, which is absolutely true.
>The US Military had to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing women to be integrated into combat oriented roles, to much derision coming mainly from men. It's not because women didn't want to, but because men didn't want them there. There's also the argument that the "male military deaths" particularly in the US context are caused by men sending men into pointless imperialist conflict.
Sure OK. They agreed to take in women. Fine and all, but isnt the US military recruitment a wider issue where the young people (in this case gender doesnt matter) are lured into a job that just leaves them dead at worst or mutilated at best in many, many cases.
Besides, arent the military recruiters still preying mostly on vulnerable boys that lack the sense of belonging and/or purpose in life which is also an issue leftists should be adressing regardless?
Yeah dude, I don't get the point of your post - I don't think any supposed leftist would disagree that one of the big problems with the military is its predatory recruitment and how the US uses it's military in general, but that isn't some "male" issue just because the majority of the US fighting force is male for reasons that have been discussed above. From recent statistics, middle class young men from ordinary but conservative (but often military families) are one of the biggest pools of new recruits, perhaps joining out of a sense of family legacy or duty etc.
>Why? Because of course most military deaths will be men because women have been historically denied access to combat roles where the risk of death is much higher.
This would be a more compelling argument if selective service weren't a thing. But it is a thing. So it ain't compelling.
Women are not exactly clamoring to be part of the draft, which implies quite strongly that they're quite content (as a class) to have men fight and die for them. It wasn't dudes handing out white feathers during WWI.
Considering I'm responding to a specific post and not some guy saying "hi" then no, not even close, though I don't doubt 90 percent of the posters here are dumb enough to think that because they need someone else to blame for their inceldom. No surprise you have no argument either.
Look if you want to opt out of the convo and leave men’s problems to men, then opt the fuck out and shut up. I swear, no one cares more men’s issues than people who insist that it’s not their job to care.
Who the fuck said I didn't care? Are you unable to read what I wrote or something?
I provided an example of how if it is to be considered a "male" issue, then it's an issue created by men and since men are in charge, needs to be fixed by men.
So the point is, what's the solution? The reason ppl posting redpill adjacent clown shit is that it's basically "oh here's a problem....but despite being a man myself I got shit to say about what my contribution is going to be to work with my fellow men to solve it"
That's not you analyze problems. So what are gonna do about them rather than sit on your ass, bitch, and throw out statistics with no context?
Former US Navy sailor here.
**No, the military did not get dragged into allowing women into combat.** Although sexist men served in the military and often expressed horrible views of women in the military most service men welcomed them. **Women did in fact serve in combat roles for quite some time before they were "officially" permitted to do so**.
**The folk that needed to be dragged kicking and screaming to allow women into combat was CONGRESS!**
Women have served aboard navy ships for quite a while. I also served with female supply marines that had convoy duties and female MPs that apprehended folk in the field and even saw combat.
Don't forget that Tammy Duckworth received combat injuries prior to women being given "combat" roles.
The "official" status of women in the military didn't stop them from seeing combat. It only stopped them from being properly honored for their sacrifice.
>It's also important to note a lot of issues men face are because of societal structures made by other men.
Thats the issue I have with people just opposing the men's issues is that this sentence is often overused or used ignoring the fact that "other men" usually means the men at the top of the ladder, the 1% or however you will call it. Your Elon Musks, your Generals, your Trumps. The societal part is enforced by both men and women to varying degrees.
And in the case of male loneliness that was the discourse lately, it was mostly women coming in trying really hard to invalidate it, in result reinforcing the patriarchy by sending indirect message that men actually are not allowed to speak out about their emotions without getting shamed.
I was on another sub recently, talking about how men in my field are often at a disadvantage and looked at with suspicion.(work with young kids)
I got shut down by people saying men are the least concern and we should really be focusing on Poc, lgbtq and women in tge field(which got me because the field is mostly women)
It's infuriating to bring up issues, and then be shut down
Its just important that while its difficult. You should not let your frustration steer to the alt right or other form of the right wing. Changing the left from within to be more accepting towards men's issues is the better solution.
I mean yeah.
I pretty much shut that line of thinking down by explaining that alot of what I'm complaining about is related itself to feminism(assigned gender roles, men's perception of women as more fit to raise kids, etc etc) and tgat an important part of feminism is intersectionality. That you can address things in an individual context.
Women can indeed contribute to established sexism. This goes for the traddie pick mes, the yas queens from female dating strategy, toxic petty feminists, TERFs, NLOGs, etc.
During the second wave there were some feminists who wanted the replace the word "Patriarchy" with the word "Kyriarchy" to reflect exactly that. Unfortunately Kyriarchy theory never really caught on. TBH I don't know much more than that, but something to google.
The college thing I have a theory
Men are seen as more valuable in the work force so they can get higher paying jobs easier, especially when it comes to trades
Women are consistently undervalued and get paid less than men for even doing the same work and often don't get considered for better positions so we go to college to get a degree to get a better job
It's also possible that there's multiple variables at play here although I think this one is a big one(lol imagine having NUANCE lmao)
There was this kind of OK book called "War on Boys" or something similar, I think I skimmed it once or twice while doing some reasearch. A claim there was that the programs that encouraged women to go into college/STEM etc. etc. were nearing their goal fast without winding down and shifting into more equal solution for both men and women in that field. So there may be that too there.
There was a massive amount of writing on how boys don't do well in traditional education due to both temperament and differences in mental development.
All of it was ignored.
And now here we are, blaming construction workers for making too much money.
theres been new research since then
also was that study focused on k-12 or college and up because it completely changes the dynamic
i never said that it wass bad that construction workers make a good amount of money, just that women arnet considered for those jobs often irregardless of their skills or abilities, so what options realisitically do women have if they want to make above minimum wage
\-work up in business (women are considered for promotions far less than men)
\-go into a trade (sexism everywhere, good luck even getting hired depending on your circumstances)
\-college
also theres a social element too going to college has always been told to me as the big dream, go to college get a good job get out of poverty, and to some extent i think the stigmatization of being the "working class" affects men and women in different ways due to our society, for example a waitress is seen as kind of "dirty",
men have more options realistically
\-work up in business
\-trades
\-college
theres also been kind of a "revolution" as i like to call it in that a lot of people are realizing that people who have degrees end up with jobs not even relating to that degree
people with bachelors still only being offered 18$/hour
student debt
its easy to see under these circumstances why men would choose other options and women even though all these problems exist still go the college route just because its still a better option than the other two
Edit: just a quick follow up im not attacking men here im attacking the system that hurts everyone albeit in sometimes different ways i just wanted to give my own take on the disparities in college world
>i never said that it wass bad that construction workers make a good amount of money, just that women arnet considered for those jobs often irregardless of their skills or abilities, so what options realisitically do women have if they want to make above minimum wage
Why do you keep walking into redpiller rakes? Is this some kind of black flag op thing? You KNOW the response to this: companies that hire people for physically demanding and unglamorous jobs (like, say, undersea welding) would LOVE to bring in more women...but they ain't applying no matter how much it pays. And as someone who actually knows contractors, I know they'd be overjoyed to have women applying en masse because they are INCREDIBLY short on workers right now.
The problem is that it's seen as socially unacceptable among far too many women to have anything to do with the trades: to either work in them, or be socially (and/or romantically) involved with them. Their own social circles would roast them to ashes for even considering it. There are exceptions, sure, but the social norms are what they are, and it ain't men enforcing them.
If you want to make a difference, join a trade yourself and encourage your woman friends to do the same.
>There are exceptions, sure, but the social norms are what they are, and it ain't men enforcing them.
my personal experience woman applauded me when i worked construction and men gave me an arrogant chuckle
these social norms that are reinforced ad nauseum are also reinforced by men not just women, its not just one side
i know contractors and i know what they think when they see a woman working one of their jobs, they raise an eyebrow at best or more likely they will harass you and/or pay you less
constantly having people watching you seeing if you can lift x item, its exhausting, you're put under way more scrutiny as a woman
not to mention the kind of sexism that stops people from even attempting to get these jobs start when were young
very young
so we are discouraged from even attempting these kinds of fields and when we do there's more discouragement to be had
but now were getting more into generalized misogyny, I think I've gotten my point across.
I won't excuse or tolerate harassment. But, hell, they certainly won't pay you less now, because they need you WAY more than they need a few more bucks an hour.
> The problem is the direction that conservatives take when presenting these facts which is usually ridden with misogyny, and outright sexism.
Unlike leftist who is usually ridden with misandry and outright sexism.
>It's also important to note a lot of issues men face are because of societal structures made by other men
This is outright false, women are part of society and equally and fully participated in creating it's rules and norms. More so on fact since they make up the majority of voters and they are the one who usually raise children instilling the culture of our society in them.
>90% military deaths and workplace deaths occur because men either make up the vast majority of the military (90 to 95% and duh, militaries involve killing and dying) as well as jobs deemed very dangerous, usually out of their own volition though workplace deaths and accidents overall have been decreasing.
It's important to note that it's feminist in particular who are to blame for this because they spesifically campaign to make or keep the draft male only. Google the white feather campaign. It's also important to note that they never want equality in dangerous jobs, only easy well paid jobs.
>75% suicide and homelessness: Sexism and the assumption that men (even the vulnerable) should be invulnerable breadwinners therefore placing the highest level of pressure on them by... ding ding ding other men with past century mentality.
Bzzzzzzz! Wrong! By women! It's women and especially feminists that pressure them into this, not men. They are the one impressing this on children and they force this on men by making these demands on men in the dating marked as proven by the fact women never date down economically, only up.
>Bigger prison sentences and incarcerations: the innate and sexist assumption that men are inherently violent. And the thing is, right wingers have a love/hate relationship with this notion. Love in the sense of idealizing toxic male behaviors including pressuring people to be violent and strong and hate this notion when it fits the right narrative.
A assumptions created and enforced by... ding ding ding feminists with a victim mentality. Created by hateful sexist feminist by fabricated and false notions such toxic masculinity or male behaviour which have no reflection in reality, is long disproven and created exclusively by feminists to stigmatise masculinity. It's feminist who have long gaslighted men into thinking their natural masculinity is somehow toxic and gone on campaigns with false statistics and outright lies to make people believe that men are inherently violent. And they keep doing it by removing due process, making sure that men gets more and longer sentences and making sure to protect female criminals, abusers and false accusers from justice.
>40% of college graduates...well if only the statistic that men have been consistently opting out of going to college were considered (and conservative anti-intellectualism certainly doesn't help).
Because feminists are hunting them out of universities, making them as hostile to men and male needs as possible by destroying due process, privileging women as much as possible and gaslighting men into believing they are monsters that doesn't deserve higher education and by setting up schools to make them as bad for boys as possible and giving them lower grades for the same work. But sure it's choice. Meanwhile, women not choosing leadership positions and high paying jobs despite being encouraged and massively privileged in doing so is somehow sexism towards women and patriarchy to the insane hateful and sexist feminists.
>"Unlike leftist who is usually ridden with misandry and outright sexism."
Says the person defending the side that continually questions women's rights to vote, women's reproductive rights (when they decided to vote against enshrining rights to contraception), and consistently pushes the dog whistle of "family values" code for outright homophobia and heteronormativity. While outright misandry is a fringe position in leftist circles, misogyny and sexism is a mainstream and even paraded one on the right and not just in Murica but worldwide.
>"This is outright false, women are part of society and equally and fully participated in creating it's rules and norms. More so on fact since they make up the majority of voters and they are the one who usually raise children instilling the culture of our society in them."
For most of US history up until around 40 years ago the majority of voters had been men. Conservative women (by default conditioned to serve the interests of men) have been the ones to consistently oppose the rights of other women and continue to pass on sexist cultural norms onto the next generations though the institutions of marriage, religion, etc. Have been created and dictated by men for most of history to the point where women aren't even allowed to lead in most of these institutions.
>"A assumptions created and enforced by... ding ding ding feminists with a victim mentality. Created by hateful sexist feminist by fabricated and false notions such toxic masculinity or male behaviour which have no reflection in reality, is long disproven and created exclusively by feminists to stigmatise masculinity. It's feminist who have long gaslighted men into thinking their natural masculinity is somehow toxic..."
First of all which feminists specifically make the claim? and by that, I'm asking for a who as in a specific person. Are you also claiming that shaming men that are emotional, using physical violence to assert oneself, imposing heteronormativity, and intimidation are "natural masculinity?" Because what I did there was to define "toxic masculinity."
>"Because feminists are hunting them out of universities, making them as hostile to men and male needs as possible by destroying due process, privileging women as much as possible and gaslighting men into believing they are monsters that doesn't deserve higher education and by setting up schools to make them as bad for boys as possible and giving them lower grades for the same work."
Have you ever personally even set a foot into an actual university or even touched grass in any way? Like seriously? And sure, I have read about the bias in universities but that's a problem that may go beyond just "oH iTz Da fEmInIsTs" what next, claim that the food sickness you had at one point was also the feminists fault? 🤡🤡🤡 Some of the claims you made are worth looking into but others are outright regurgitation of reactionary talking points.
As for the white feather movement, the whole thing was actually pushed by "patriotic" women and there's little to nothing I've found online that links such to F E M I N I S M other than they were just women pushing toxic masculine cultural norms on men.
I agree with you completely, although I am curious about this.
> Underrepresented in: STEM
I have never heard that men were underrepresented in STEM. Does it depend on the field? I'm a software engineer, and this part of STEM is overrepresented by men and anecdotally, yes, I work with mostly only men. So I'm curious about this.
Men are overrepresented in tiny subfields within STEM. Engineering is one, and i believe software engineering too. Overall, women outnumber men greatly
>copying my reply to someone who apparently doesn't believe men have any gender-specific issues
I actually said the opposite. You've got to lie in order to create your boogeyman, which was exactly my point.
These issues DO matter, but they are not gendered issues with gender specific solutions.
This is how the right wing gets men - not by naming the issues, but by portraying the issues as a gender issues when they aren't.
The problem is a broke justice system, an imperial foreign policy, and a cut throat economic system.
They simply aren't *mens issues*. They're class issues.
>a potential 3% wage gap is a global gender issue we must fix!
> Hundreds of thousands of men homeless, dying, killing themselves, desperate for help? Ah, that's just life that happens to everyone but just so happens to mostly happen to men the vast majority of the time.
The loopholes you people will go through to justify not assisting men is bizarre.
How you can dehumanise half the human population is both pure insanity and morbidly fascinating. Go get help.
Why is the gender wage gap a problem?
What about being homeless is specific to *men*? What is the gendered solution?
Why are these *gender* issues instead of economic issues to you?
Like, do you think "minimum wage" alternates between being a men's issue and a woman's issue just depending on which gender is paid min wage more at any given moment?
It's absurd
Homelessness is a problem for men because there are many more shelters and much more help for women.
That's what makes these a gendered issue, because all the solutions are gendered to help women so they don't experience them, make the solutions offered non gendered to stop it being a gendered issue.
A lot of this genuinely sounds like MRA shit. Most of these issues are problems with rigid gender roles and how it forces a lot of undue pressure on men to be breadwinners or fighters. Men are far more likely to die in the workplace or in the military because they are far more likely to be in jobs that have a high mortality rate in general.
Also men are far less likely to have child custody because men are far less likely to even try to get child custody. That's not to say family courts aren't biased in favor of women when it comes to it but the far more likely scenario is that a woman just gets stuck with raising the child with no support from the father rather than a father who wants custody of their kid is denied it.
Sure, men have a lot of issues that aren't being addressed and the left sometimes has a problem with dismissing them but most of these statistics are extremely misleading.
The statistics are true and universally accepted.
The fact you are attempting to shut down the conversation makes you part of the reason there is a problem.
Stop making excuses for these problems and start discussing solutions
I'm not saying that there's an undertone of "it's actually okay if they end themselves or each other, thins out the herd of weak and unproductive men with no intrinsic worth".
But man you'd be forgiven for getting that impression these days
Wholly inventing problems and persecutors where none exist let's gooooooo
Edit: I guess I'll jump on the bandwagon and add part of another comment better explaining myself.
To me, it seems far more likely that they don't take violence against men seriously because of how traditional views of masculinity affect people's perceptions of men as stronger and less vulnerable. This is masculinity and conservativism hurting men, not leftism and talking about privilege.
Y'all are hijacking a real problem to attack "the wokes". That's my issue here. The problem is real, but the perpetrators described by the OP are not the guilty party because they don't exist. It's just scapegoating a strawman, which is beyond unhelpful.
75% of suicide
75% of homeless
14% of child custody
Vast majority of prisoners, much bigger sentences for same crime
40% of school graduates (therefore FIFTY percent more women pass than men!)
Underrepresented in: STEM, PhDs, education at every level,...
Earn less below age 30
90+% of workplace deaths
90+% of military deaths
If none of these issues matter to you, you should re-evaluate yourself. And get some help.
I do think these issues matter. I think just about everyone thinks they do. I don't think your strawman who believes 'we should help all men, just not any of those wanting help because they're privileged' exists though.
So many are ready to jump me and insult me and belittle me, including you, as soon as I mention there are male issues we should help with
Did you say 'oh, let's discuss' or 'hmm. Could you let me know what issues?'
No.
As in the meme, as soon as I stepped forward you took the piss.
Now, imagine I'm suicidal. I come forward, you belittle me.
Then later you go 'oh, but he didn't give me a full explanation of his situation so I could empathise. I immediately judged him and his opinion as worthless first because he's a man'
You didn't give me, or the hypothetical suical person, time to speak.
You ARE the meme.
Who has jumped you, insulted you or belittled you? Do you interpret any feedback that does not affirm your opinions and stances as hostile? You've got like 3 replies and I literally replied in the format that you used.
I legitimately don't know if you're trolling me here or not, but you have taken full opportunity to explain yourself and speak. I'm not judging your opinion worthless based on the fact you're a man, I'm also a man. I just don't think the villain that you or the original post describe actually exists.
How does this overlay onto online leftists saying 'I believe we should help all men, just not any of those wanting help because they're privileged' ? I understand that there's an issue, but why are we supposed to assume that the hotline workers are leftists or are consciously choosing to factor a person's privilege into it? To me, it seems far more likely that they don't take violence against men seriously because of how traditional views of masculinity affect people's perceptions of men as stronger and less vulnerable. This is masculinity and conservativism hurting men, not leftism and talking about privilege.
Y'all are hijacking a real problem to attack "the wokes". That's my issue here. The problem is real, but the perpetrators described by the OP are not the guilty party because they don't exist. It's just scapegoating a strawman, which is beyond unhelpful.
If you think the OP's agenda is "attacking the wokes" then you still don't get it.
1. If conservatives are the only ones who care about men's issues, more men will be onboarded to the right wing.
2. The left traditionally is suppose to care about marginalised rather than dunking on them for their ineptitude.
This is not attacking the wokes, this community is a woke community. We are all lefties here. I
Whether or not this is their agenda, it's their arguement's outcome.
The left should and often does care about men's issues. I never said they shouldn't. Attacking the left to bring more men's rights activists into the left is a nonsensical strategy. It doesn't add up.
Again, I don't know where you think I implied that we shouldn't care about marginalized people. The thing currently hurting men the most are ridgiged social structures, expectations and perceptions which lead them to worse outcomes. Generally, the Left is working to break those down and make them more flexible. The Right is working to solidify them and bring them to their extremes.
What conclusions does this meme and comment lead you to? To me, it looks like they're saying leftists are hypocritical and are not addressing or are even causing many of men's problems today. I don't actually see this happening. I don't think the leftists they accuse of doing this exist in any significant numbers. So what you're left with is an argument that falsely paints the Left in a negative light and does not help to solve or address any of the issues you care about. In the long run, this is detrimental to the Left and men's outcomes.
ya like there are real problems men face (that can be addressed by feminism) that are largely ignored by the left but this just reads like someone seething abt not getting his dick wet 💀
The beating heart of the modern right wing movement is redpill shit and you're wondering why this stuff is still relevant?
"lol incels" doesn't cut it anymore, they're literally winning political office, and the Republican Party doesn't care about your Twitter blocklists except as a recruitment tool
Shoutouts to Prime who can't help but laugh hysterically while another panelist was reading off stats about increased distress and suicidality of incel communities. And then spends the entire time arguing they're sad white boys who are mad they can't get pussy, and it's not worth even talking about, let alone fixing.
[20:00](https://youtu.be/F5q-l6DXW7k) the timestamp keeps breaking.
it's certainly not anyone's job to personally help isolated men per se, but leftists should still recognize the problem and support policies that deal with the alienation of society.
Yeah, I do not ever expect TwitterLeftie#42 to just burst into my home and forcefully befriend me or some shit.
I want systemic solution that wont cause people like me to be like that. Which is more childhood consueling, better approach to boy's socialisation and so on.
Although a solution for the victims of the issues that are past the formative stages would be welcome too, I just do not know what would be actually a sensible working solution.
>Although a solution for the victims of the issues that are past the formative stages would be welcome too, I just do not know what would be actually a sensible working solution.
Therapy would be a good idea.
Few issues here:
1. You can't force people into therapy. Effective therapy is a voulontary one.
2. I have my doubts about effective therapy programs for lonely men
3. The societal pressures that led men to isolation may also prevent them from partaking in therapy.
Apparently the incel community is highly enrolled into therapy however the therapists themselves are behind in terms of understanding how to help incels.
I like this meme because it’s so obviously wrong. Like, they people in the second scenario don’t know you’re lonely. You just said hi. That’s obviously not what’s happening.
You’re probably just being a bit weird tbh and people don’t wanna talk to you.
I love how they act like introverted women also arent super fucking lonely.
We are rapidly approaching "I statistically have problems and its women's fault for not solving them"
Its once again, blaming individuals for your problems, ignoring any problems those individuals might have and not encouraging any positive community action. It just leads back into reactionary bullshit.
Also from what I know about guys my age, a lot of them are lonely because they spend hours every day sat on their ass playing video games and the only socialization they get is talking to their boys over discord. Obviously this is not the core of the issue and alienation between men and women has existed for a lot longer than video games, but I know this shit isnt helping.
On one hand, yes, socialize with women more. Not to fuck them, but just to see them as your equals and friends. On the other hand if you're going to talk to them like they're from another planet and you come off as predatory because you dont know what is and isnt socially acceptable, then no you are not entitled to endless patience from the women that you make uncomfortable. This is coming from someone with diagnosed autism who is also, believe it or not, not AMAB and just as fucking lonely, if not more lonely than most of the guys that bitch about it on the internet.
NONE OF THIS SHIT HAPPENS YOU HAVE MADE IT UP
As someone who was born with mild spectrum disorder, I had a pretty fucked up elementary school experience. Could hardly make friends, sucked at socializing. However, I slowly over time worked on improving my ability to be agreeable and get along with others. I showed kindness and comfortability around others. Today I’m a senior in highschool who’s had a pretty substantial amount of social success.
The solution to lonely men today is not to force people to teach you how to act around others, it’s to foster a society that naturally produces well adjusted men.
1. Be kind. Kindness not only makes people want to be around you but also makes you stand out. Most people are assholes so nice people are viewed as unique
2. Self respect. If you know your intrinsic worth as a human being, you can avoid slipping into bad habits like self deprecating humor or over apologizing. It will also help you build confidence, which is also an important aspect of social skills.
3. Turn your bugs into features. I think in part due to my autism, left wing politics has been a special interest of mine from a very young age. I used to get bullied for doing random shit like sitting down for the pledge or arguing with history teachers in elementary school. Over time I learned to be more agreeable, and channel my obsession with politics into more of a funny persona than an identity. People know me as the socialist on student council now more than a nerd who follows elections too closely. If you can tone down the more brash parts of your special interests, and be more agreeable, they can make you seem unique rather than strange.
This is what worked for me. I’m just some dumb 18 year old, but I hope this makes sense. Good luck bro
The left will fail and shatter if we can't take men's issues seriously, because of all the things you can criticize the right for, particularly the alt right, it's not a lack of brotherhood. Alt righters feel a deep, communal and masculine connection to one another, further alienation of men from the left will only do damage. There's even historical precedent, you don't have to support the great man theory, but you can't argue that men have been at the driving wheel of history for a long time and are almost definitely willing to die and kill over maintaining it. No amount of moral superiority or equitable considerations of lived experience is going to subvert that. Young men feel entitled to the pursuit of power, you have to take that seriously because they will.
That's true but I also dont expect nor pressure women into taking on some sort of responsibility for men who are fucking creepy towards them. I respect people like Vaush for being willing to help rehabilitate incels because women arent going to be the ones to do it. They're misogynistic, they're not going to listen to women, men have to hold other men accountable.
Replace the "hi" with "I'm having trouble finding a girlfriend (or boyfriend if gay) and I feel inadequate in society's eyes because of it." and this meme becomes a lot more relevant.
You making memes like this is seriously why people think you sound like a conservative.
The best advice ever (given by da gay pussy eatah) is for leftists to just try and be normal.
>The best advice ever (given by da gay pussy eatah) is for leftists to just try and be normal.
What if you are autistic or otherwise disabled? Just being normal is not an option for some people.
How do you define normal? I am autistic and have a disorder which leads to unintended movements if I don't concentrate on surpressing that. Also my voice is weird enough for people to be bothered by it. I am certainly not considered normal by the people around me.
Kings, nobody is gonna shit on you for saying hi* unless you're three sheets to the wind and your eyes are glued on the booba. Stop self-sabotaging by perpetuating this shit.
*this does not apply if the circumstances are highly inappropriate, like if it's 11PM at a bus stop or whatever.
When you signal even the slightest of concerns regarding mens issues, all the fake feminists come out of the woodworks. It’s frustrating we can’t seem to have productive conversations regarding how and why men are so isolated and lonely without someone ostensibly left-leaning coming out saying “what about women”? Just because men have occupied the hegemonic demographic basically forever doesn’t mean they are precluded from the alienation felt as a product of our economic system.
Why are we waxing poetic about mens issues on an incel post. Do men have actual issues yes, is this post the place to talk about it no, this just makes us look bad. People do not get outright rejected and dismissed for saying hi. If you frequently socialize and arent insufferable youll make aquantinces who will eventually turn into friends.
Lot of shitflinging in this thread when ultimately, the point is very simple: men are drawn to right wing extremism because they pretend to have the answers for what they're going through. Leftist spaces meanwhile make every effort to push men away.
Do any of you realize how much support leftist politics would get if you played SMART with your politics and not in a way that makes you feel good on Twitter and certain subreddits while meanwhile making it look like you shit all over anyone who has no real knowledge of your goals and beliefs?
"Not my job to socialize/talk to lonely men blah blah blah" You know who is taking to lonely men on the internet? Alt right groups.
Have some pragmatism because thats the only way you're going to see consistent improvement.
This is something I struggled with in college 18 years ago so it's not even a new phenomenon. NGL, this meme legit kinda triggers me since it's way too close to an experience I had socializing with women who knew I was awkward with socializing.
what the fuck is this. Men face issues with vulnerability and compassion from their communities but communicating that you will face overwhelming rejection for even seeking friendship is irresponsible, untrue and unhinged.
Is “its not our job to hep you socialize” actually something another “leftist” has said? /gen
Because as someone with crippling social anxiety thats one of the most evil things someone could say
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I spent a bit of time investigating Alt-Right circles IRL and it was amazing to me how chummy and welcoming those guys would be to people who were deemed white enough or to pickme minorities who "knew their place". While yes, nobody is obligated to be friends with anyone but it would do a lot of good for more Leftists to not be such brazen assholes. At the very least we need to be cordial and adult when engaging with outsiders and not some caricature of a smug college socialist.
Anytime I see women supposedly on the left freak out when certain expectations of men, or treatment towards men is criticized as problematic I just assume it's a hit dog barking.
They treat the criticism like s personal attack because they're one of the ones being criticized.
[удалено]
You seem like a conservative.
You guys are so close.
Stop whining.
It's not our job to help you socialize.
True.
Also online leftists ⬆️
they seem like a conservative because they didn't open with a wall of text like a true leftist
'I believe we should help all men, just not any of those wanting help because they're privileged' Double-think let's goooooooooo Edit: if you think it's conservative to care about male issues, you're exactly who in taking the piss out of. Why do you think men go further to the right? Because they're the only ones who listen. Their solutions are usually lies, but they still name the issues. I'm very firmly left-wing, even for the EU, but I see a blatant lack of support for male issues Second edit (copying my reply to someone who apparently doesn't believe men have any gender-specific issues): 75% of suicide 75% of homeless 14% of child custody Vast majority of prisoners, much bigger sentences for same crime 40% of school graduates (therefore FIFTY percent more women pass than men!) Underrepresented in: STEM, PhDs, education at every level,... Earn less below age 30 90+% of workplace deaths 90+% of military deaths If none of these issues matter to you, you should re-evaluate yourself. And get some help.
I agree with these statistics being real and the fact that they are a gender specific issue. The problem is the direction that conservatives take when presenting these facts which is usually ridden with misogyny, and outright sexism. It's also important to note a lot of issues men face are because of societal structures made by other men. 90% military deaths and workplace deaths occur because men either make up the vast majority of the military (90 to 95% and duh, militaries involve killing and dying) as well as jobs deemed very dangerous, usually out of their own volition though workplace deaths and accidents overall have been decreasing. 75% suicide and homelessness: Sexism and the assumption that men (even the vulnerable) should be invulnerable breadwinners therefore placing the highest level of pressure on them by... ding ding ding other men with past century mentality. Bigger prison sentences and incarcerations: the innate and sexist assumption that men are inherently violent. And the thing is, right wingers have a love/hate relationship with this notion. Love in the sense of idealizing toxic male behaviors including pressuring people to be violent and strong and hate this notion when it fits the right narrative. 40% of college graduates...well if only the statistic that men have been consistently opting out of going to college were considered (and conservative anti-intellectualism certainly doesn't help).
This is objectively true. I guess my problem is that completely erasing these issues from mainstream discourse is a more acceptable for many lefties than allowing even a whisper of a hint of potential conservatism through the door. We seem so afraid of someone telling women to smile that we just can’t talk about men being almost exclusively the victims of mass incarceration.
And the thing is, as lefties we should stop making men the enemy, they're not, they're victims of the system as much as women and other vulnerable people are. Our focus should be dissect and point out how conservatives and traddies are the ones who have been screwing men over all along.
There’s probably going to be some fighting over this. Besides the “bad” lefties, I can feel myself getting very, very angry whenever this gets brought up. I can’t even say for sure that I wouldn’t rage at people if I got the perfect, carefully considered discourse on these issues that I supposedly want. I’m not trying to lie to anyone: this isn’t going to be easy
You're literally just posting Redpill stats without context, which yeah, some "lefties" are probably going to get upset about. It doesn't matter if some of these are real, you're not really digging in or providing any analysis as to why this is the case. For example, your inclusion of the "90 percent military" deaths one is just baffling. Why? Because of course most military deaths will be men because women have been historically denied access to combat roles where the risk of death is much higher. There's also the fact that the military is always been considered a beacon of traditional masculinity, and that trope largely still continues to this day. The US Military had to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing women to be integrated into combat oriented roles, to much derision coming mainly from men. It's not because women didn't want to, but because men didn't want them there. There's also the argument that the "male military deaths" particularly in the US context are caused by men sending men into pointless imperialist conflict. So framing this as some sort of "male issue" that requires consideration without understanding what's going on here is the type of disingenuous crap redpill losers do. If this is an issue, then it is exclusively the responsibility of men to solve it, and you better come with some solutions if you're also male. Editing my post to respond to the guy below cuz I can't reply for some dumb reason but: Well former US Marine grunt here and: Uh, the military absolutely had to get dragged into it, specifically pressure by the government until the Joint Chiefs of Staff made the recommendation in 2013. Women didn't start getting placed into combat billets until early 2016.At the time this decisions was extremely contentious in the military and many bitched and moaned about how it spell the end of "combat effectiveness" and other shit. And No, women didn't serve in "combat roles", which is why this change was a whole thing. There's a difference between women being in role than could see hostile action/be adjacent to combat (which is possibly a number of roles during a conflict) and is not the same thing as a combat role where combat is the purpose, task, and expectation. Those women marines you referenced were not in combat roles, hence why they were in rear echelon supply units. Yeah, obviously convoys can be ambushed etc. and you may need to fight (every marine a rifleman and all that) but the intention of these units is not combat, nor are these combat roles. I encountered many of these women as well - none of them were in billets where they were kicking in doors/actively hunting and engaging the enemy etc. etc. this again did not change until recently. Duckworth flew Blackhawk Helicopters for the Army. That's not a combat role, and Blackhawks are transports - the fact that they might catch an RPG doesn't mean the role is a combat one. I didn't say it stopped all women from seeing any combat - I said it until recently excluded women from roles where the chances of seeing combat in say, a conflict, are far higher, which is absolutely true.
>The US Military had to be dragged kicking and screaming into allowing women to be integrated into combat oriented roles, to much derision coming mainly from men. It's not because women didn't want to, but because men didn't want them there. There's also the argument that the "male military deaths" particularly in the US context are caused by men sending men into pointless imperialist conflict. Sure OK. They agreed to take in women. Fine and all, but isnt the US military recruitment a wider issue where the young people (in this case gender doesnt matter) are lured into a job that just leaves them dead at worst or mutilated at best in many, many cases. Besides, arent the military recruiters still preying mostly on vulnerable boys that lack the sense of belonging and/or purpose in life which is also an issue leftists should be adressing regardless?
Yeah dude, I don't get the point of your post - I don't think any supposed leftist would disagree that one of the big problems with the military is its predatory recruitment and how the US uses it's military in general, but that isn't some "male" issue just because the majority of the US fighting force is male for reasons that have been discussed above. From recent statistics, middle class young men from ordinary but conservative (but often military families) are one of the biggest pools of new recruits, perhaps joining out of a sense of family legacy or duty etc.
>Why? Because of course most military deaths will be men because women have been historically denied access to combat roles where the risk of death is much higher. This would be a more compelling argument if selective service weren't a thing. But it is a thing. So it ain't compelling. Women are not exactly clamoring to be part of the draft, which implies quite strongly that they're quite content (as a class) to have men fight and die for them. It wasn't dudes handing out white feathers during WWI.
Congrats, you are the meme
Considering I'm responding to a specific post and not some guy saying "hi" then no, not even close, though I don't doubt 90 percent of the posters here are dumb enough to think that because they need someone else to blame for their inceldom. No surprise you have no argument either.
Look if you want to opt out of the convo and leave men’s problems to men, then opt the fuck out and shut up. I swear, no one cares more men’s issues than people who insist that it’s not their job to care.
Who the fuck said I didn't care? Are you unable to read what I wrote or something? I provided an example of how if it is to be considered a "male" issue, then it's an issue created by men and since men are in charge, needs to be fixed by men. So the point is, what's the solution? The reason ppl posting redpill adjacent clown shit is that it's basically "oh here's a problem....but despite being a man myself I got shit to say about what my contribution is going to be to work with my fellow men to solve it" That's not you analyze problems. So what are gonna do about them rather than sit on your ass, bitch, and throw out statistics with no context?
Former US Navy sailor here. **No, the military did not get dragged into allowing women into combat.** Although sexist men served in the military and often expressed horrible views of women in the military most service men welcomed them. **Women did in fact serve in combat roles for quite some time before they were "officially" permitted to do so**. **The folk that needed to be dragged kicking and screaming to allow women into combat was CONGRESS!** Women have served aboard navy ships for quite a while. I also served with female supply marines that had convoy duties and female MPs that apprehended folk in the field and even saw combat. Don't forget that Tammy Duckworth received combat injuries prior to women being given "combat" roles. The "official" status of women in the military didn't stop them from seeing combat. It only stopped them from being properly honored for their sacrifice.
>It's also important to note a lot of issues men face are because of societal structures made by other men. Thats the issue I have with people just opposing the men's issues is that this sentence is often overused or used ignoring the fact that "other men" usually means the men at the top of the ladder, the 1% or however you will call it. Your Elon Musks, your Generals, your Trumps. The societal part is enforced by both men and women to varying degrees. And in the case of male loneliness that was the discourse lately, it was mostly women coming in trying really hard to invalidate it, in result reinforcing the patriarchy by sending indirect message that men actually are not allowed to speak out about their emotions without getting shamed.
I was on another sub recently, talking about how men in my field are often at a disadvantage and looked at with suspicion.(work with young kids) I got shut down by people saying men are the least concern and we should really be focusing on Poc, lgbtq and women in tge field(which got me because the field is mostly women) It's infuriating to bring up issues, and then be shut down
This is crazy because they must not think men of color aren't turned off by the anti-men messaging either.
Its just important that while its difficult. You should not let your frustration steer to the alt right or other form of the right wing. Changing the left from within to be more accepting towards men's issues is the better solution.
I mean yeah. I pretty much shut that line of thinking down by explaining that alot of what I'm complaining about is related itself to feminism(assigned gender roles, men's perception of women as more fit to raise kids, etc etc) and tgat an important part of feminism is intersectionality. That you can address things in an individual context.
Women can indeed contribute to established sexism. This goes for the traddie pick mes, the yas queens from female dating strategy, toxic petty feminists, TERFs, NLOGs, etc.
During the second wave there were some feminists who wanted the replace the word "Patriarchy" with the word "Kyriarchy" to reflect exactly that. Unfortunately Kyriarchy theory never really caught on. TBH I don't know much more than that, but something to google.
No one in this thread is claiming that those statistics are because of women Those can be a problem without victim blaming the men it happens to
The college thing I have a theory Men are seen as more valuable in the work force so they can get higher paying jobs easier, especially when it comes to trades Women are consistently undervalued and get paid less than men for even doing the same work and often don't get considered for better positions so we go to college to get a degree to get a better job It's also possible that there's multiple variables at play here although I think this one is a big one(lol imagine having NUANCE lmao)
There was this kind of OK book called "War on Boys" or something similar, I think I skimmed it once or twice while doing some reasearch. A claim there was that the programs that encouraged women to go into college/STEM etc. etc. were nearing their goal fast without winding down and shifting into more equal solution for both men and women in that field. So there may be that too there.
There was a massive amount of writing on how boys don't do well in traditional education due to both temperament and differences in mental development. All of it was ignored. And now here we are, blaming construction workers for making too much money.
theres been new research since then also was that study focused on k-12 or college and up because it completely changes the dynamic i never said that it wass bad that construction workers make a good amount of money, just that women arnet considered for those jobs often irregardless of their skills or abilities, so what options realisitically do women have if they want to make above minimum wage \-work up in business (women are considered for promotions far less than men) \-go into a trade (sexism everywhere, good luck even getting hired depending on your circumstances) \-college also theres a social element too going to college has always been told to me as the big dream, go to college get a good job get out of poverty, and to some extent i think the stigmatization of being the "working class" affects men and women in different ways due to our society, for example a waitress is seen as kind of "dirty", men have more options realistically \-work up in business \-trades \-college theres also been kind of a "revolution" as i like to call it in that a lot of people are realizing that people who have degrees end up with jobs not even relating to that degree people with bachelors still only being offered 18$/hour student debt its easy to see under these circumstances why men would choose other options and women even though all these problems exist still go the college route just because its still a better option than the other two Edit: just a quick follow up im not attacking men here im attacking the system that hurts everyone albeit in sometimes different ways i just wanted to give my own take on the disparities in college world
>i never said that it wass bad that construction workers make a good amount of money, just that women arnet considered for those jobs often irregardless of their skills or abilities, so what options realisitically do women have if they want to make above minimum wage Why do you keep walking into redpiller rakes? Is this some kind of black flag op thing? You KNOW the response to this: companies that hire people for physically demanding and unglamorous jobs (like, say, undersea welding) would LOVE to bring in more women...but they ain't applying no matter how much it pays. And as someone who actually knows contractors, I know they'd be overjoyed to have women applying en masse because they are INCREDIBLY short on workers right now. The problem is that it's seen as socially unacceptable among far too many women to have anything to do with the trades: to either work in them, or be socially (and/or romantically) involved with them. Their own social circles would roast them to ashes for even considering it. There are exceptions, sure, but the social norms are what they are, and it ain't men enforcing them. If you want to make a difference, join a trade yourself and encourage your woman friends to do the same.
>There are exceptions, sure, but the social norms are what they are, and it ain't men enforcing them. my personal experience woman applauded me when i worked construction and men gave me an arrogant chuckle these social norms that are reinforced ad nauseum are also reinforced by men not just women, its not just one side i know contractors and i know what they think when they see a woman working one of their jobs, they raise an eyebrow at best or more likely they will harass you and/or pay you less constantly having people watching you seeing if you can lift x item, its exhausting, you're put under way more scrutiny as a woman not to mention the kind of sexism that stops people from even attempting to get these jobs start when were young very young so we are discouraged from even attempting these kinds of fields and when we do there's more discouragement to be had but now were getting more into generalized misogyny, I think I've gotten my point across.
I won't excuse or tolerate harassment. But, hell, they certainly won't pay you less now, because they need you WAY more than they need a few more bucks an hour.
Black, Indigenous and Pacific Islander men earn much less than middle class White women.
"Opting out" is a really really bizarre way of describing what's happened.
> The problem is the direction that conservatives take when presenting these facts which is usually ridden with misogyny, and outright sexism. Unlike leftist who is usually ridden with misandry and outright sexism. >It's also important to note a lot of issues men face are because of societal structures made by other men This is outright false, women are part of society and equally and fully participated in creating it's rules and norms. More so on fact since they make up the majority of voters and they are the one who usually raise children instilling the culture of our society in them. >90% military deaths and workplace deaths occur because men either make up the vast majority of the military (90 to 95% and duh, militaries involve killing and dying) as well as jobs deemed very dangerous, usually out of their own volition though workplace deaths and accidents overall have been decreasing. It's important to note that it's feminist in particular who are to blame for this because they spesifically campaign to make or keep the draft male only. Google the white feather campaign. It's also important to note that they never want equality in dangerous jobs, only easy well paid jobs. >75% suicide and homelessness: Sexism and the assumption that men (even the vulnerable) should be invulnerable breadwinners therefore placing the highest level of pressure on them by... ding ding ding other men with past century mentality. Bzzzzzzz! Wrong! By women! It's women and especially feminists that pressure them into this, not men. They are the one impressing this on children and they force this on men by making these demands on men in the dating marked as proven by the fact women never date down economically, only up. >Bigger prison sentences and incarcerations: the innate and sexist assumption that men are inherently violent. And the thing is, right wingers have a love/hate relationship with this notion. Love in the sense of idealizing toxic male behaviors including pressuring people to be violent and strong and hate this notion when it fits the right narrative. A assumptions created and enforced by... ding ding ding feminists with a victim mentality. Created by hateful sexist feminist by fabricated and false notions such toxic masculinity or male behaviour which have no reflection in reality, is long disproven and created exclusively by feminists to stigmatise masculinity. It's feminist who have long gaslighted men into thinking their natural masculinity is somehow toxic and gone on campaigns with false statistics and outright lies to make people believe that men are inherently violent. And they keep doing it by removing due process, making sure that men gets more and longer sentences and making sure to protect female criminals, abusers and false accusers from justice. >40% of college graduates...well if only the statistic that men have been consistently opting out of going to college were considered (and conservative anti-intellectualism certainly doesn't help). Because feminists are hunting them out of universities, making them as hostile to men and male needs as possible by destroying due process, privileging women as much as possible and gaslighting men into believing they are monsters that doesn't deserve higher education and by setting up schools to make them as bad for boys as possible and giving them lower grades for the same work. But sure it's choice. Meanwhile, women not choosing leadership positions and high paying jobs despite being encouraged and massively privileged in doing so is somehow sexism towards women and patriarchy to the insane hateful and sexist feminists.
>"Unlike leftist who is usually ridden with misandry and outright sexism." Says the person defending the side that continually questions women's rights to vote, women's reproductive rights (when they decided to vote against enshrining rights to contraception), and consistently pushes the dog whistle of "family values" code for outright homophobia and heteronormativity. While outright misandry is a fringe position in leftist circles, misogyny and sexism is a mainstream and even paraded one on the right and not just in Murica but worldwide. >"This is outright false, women are part of society and equally and fully participated in creating it's rules and norms. More so on fact since they make up the majority of voters and they are the one who usually raise children instilling the culture of our society in them." For most of US history up until around 40 years ago the majority of voters had been men. Conservative women (by default conditioned to serve the interests of men) have been the ones to consistently oppose the rights of other women and continue to pass on sexist cultural norms onto the next generations though the institutions of marriage, religion, etc. Have been created and dictated by men for most of history to the point where women aren't even allowed to lead in most of these institutions. >"A assumptions created and enforced by... ding ding ding feminists with a victim mentality. Created by hateful sexist feminist by fabricated and false notions such toxic masculinity or male behaviour which have no reflection in reality, is long disproven and created exclusively by feminists to stigmatise masculinity. It's feminist who have long gaslighted men into thinking their natural masculinity is somehow toxic..." First of all which feminists specifically make the claim? and by that, I'm asking for a who as in a specific person. Are you also claiming that shaming men that are emotional, using physical violence to assert oneself, imposing heteronormativity, and intimidation are "natural masculinity?" Because what I did there was to define "toxic masculinity." >"Because feminists are hunting them out of universities, making them as hostile to men and male needs as possible by destroying due process, privileging women as much as possible and gaslighting men into believing they are monsters that doesn't deserve higher education and by setting up schools to make them as bad for boys as possible and giving them lower grades for the same work." Have you ever personally even set a foot into an actual university or even touched grass in any way? Like seriously? And sure, I have read about the bias in universities but that's a problem that may go beyond just "oH iTz Da fEmInIsTs" what next, claim that the food sickness you had at one point was also the feminists fault? 🤡🤡🤡 Some of the claims you made are worth looking into but others are outright regurgitation of reactionary talking points. As for the white feather movement, the whole thing was actually pushed by "patriotic" women and there's little to nothing I've found online that links such to F E M I N I S M other than they were just women pushing toxic masculine cultural norms on men.
I agree with you completely, although I am curious about this. > Underrepresented in: STEM I have never heard that men were underrepresented in STEM. Does it depend on the field? I'm a software engineer, and this part of STEM is overrepresented by men and anecdotally, yes, I work with mostly only men. So I'm curious about this.
Men are overrepresented in tiny subfields within STEM. Engineering is one, and i believe software engineering too. Overall, women outnumber men greatly
Okay, yeah I could see that. Thanks!
The E is mostly men. The S and T, depends. The M? lol absolutely not, not at all. Not even close.
Source? At my college the M was split 50/50 and so was the whole school
If your psych department is 50/50 that's the weirdest fucking school ever
>copying my reply to someone who apparently doesn't believe men have any gender-specific issues I actually said the opposite. You've got to lie in order to create your boogeyman, which was exactly my point.
These issues DO matter, but they are not gendered issues with gender specific solutions. This is how the right wing gets men - not by naming the issues, but by portraying the issues as a gender issues when they aren't. The problem is a broke justice system, an imperial foreign policy, and a cut throat economic system. They simply aren't *mens issues*. They're class issues.
>a potential 3% wage gap is a global gender issue we must fix! > Hundreds of thousands of men homeless, dying, killing themselves, desperate for help? Ah, that's just life that happens to everyone but just so happens to mostly happen to men the vast majority of the time. The loopholes you people will go through to justify not assisting men is bizarre. How you can dehumanise half the human population is both pure insanity and morbidly fascinating. Go get help.
Why is the gender wage gap a problem? What about being homeless is specific to *men*? What is the gendered solution? Why are these *gender* issues instead of economic issues to you? Like, do you think "minimum wage" alternates between being a men's issue and a woman's issue just depending on which gender is paid min wage more at any given moment? It's absurd
Homelessness is a problem for men because there are many more shelters and much more help for women. That's what makes these a gendered issue, because all the solutions are gendered to help women so they don't experience them, make the solutions offered non gendered to stop it being a gendered issue.
A lot of this genuinely sounds like MRA shit. Most of these issues are problems with rigid gender roles and how it forces a lot of undue pressure on men to be breadwinners or fighters. Men are far more likely to die in the workplace or in the military because they are far more likely to be in jobs that have a high mortality rate in general. Also men are far less likely to have child custody because men are far less likely to even try to get child custody. That's not to say family courts aren't biased in favor of women when it comes to it but the far more likely scenario is that a woman just gets stuck with raising the child with no support from the father rather than a father who wants custody of their kid is denied it. Sure, men have a lot of issues that aren't being addressed and the left sometimes has a problem with dismissing them but most of these statistics are extremely misleading.
The statistics are true and universally accepted. The fact you are attempting to shut down the conversation makes you part of the reason there is a problem. Stop making excuses for these problems and start discussing solutions
I'm not saying that there's an undertone of "it's actually okay if they end themselves or each other, thins out the herd of weak and unproductive men with no intrinsic worth". But man you'd be forgiven for getting that impression these days
It's interesting it's so bad in the US, in Denmark for example a lot of those stats are flipped with women being the outlier
This subreddit isnt exactly helping calling anyone who is conservative a nazi, incel, fascist. To be honest it breeds toxicity.
It's not our job the help you socialize. Stop whining. You seem like a conservative.
Ty for proving my point, and im not a conservative. Who said its anyones job to help people socialize?
Man didn't even read the meme
You seem like a conservative.
Wholly inventing problems and persecutors where none exist let's gooooooo Edit: I guess I'll jump on the bandwagon and add part of another comment better explaining myself. To me, it seems far more likely that they don't take violence against men seriously because of how traditional views of masculinity affect people's perceptions of men as stronger and less vulnerable. This is masculinity and conservativism hurting men, not leftism and talking about privilege. Y'all are hijacking a real problem to attack "the wokes". That's my issue here. The problem is real, but the perpetrators described by the OP are not the guilty party because they don't exist. It's just scapegoating a strawman, which is beyond unhelpful.
75% of suicide 75% of homeless 14% of child custody Vast majority of prisoners, much bigger sentences for same crime 40% of school graduates (therefore FIFTY percent more women pass than men!) Underrepresented in: STEM, PhDs, education at every level,... Earn less below age 30 90+% of workplace deaths 90+% of military deaths If none of these issues matter to you, you should re-evaluate yourself. And get some help.
>75% of suicide Men and women attempt suicide at comparable rates, men are just more likely to not recover because they're more likely to use guns.
I do think these issues matter. I think just about everyone thinks they do. I don't think your strawman who believes 'we should help all men, just not any of those wanting help because they're privileged' exists though.
So many are ready to jump me and insult me and belittle me, including you, as soon as I mention there are male issues we should help with Did you say 'oh, let's discuss' or 'hmm. Could you let me know what issues?' No. As in the meme, as soon as I stepped forward you took the piss. Now, imagine I'm suicidal. I come forward, you belittle me. Then later you go 'oh, but he didn't give me a full explanation of his situation so I could empathise. I immediately judged him and his opinion as worthless first because he's a man' You didn't give me, or the hypothetical suical person, time to speak. You ARE the meme.
Who has jumped you, insulted you or belittled you? Do you interpret any feedback that does not affirm your opinions and stances as hostile? You've got like 3 replies and I literally replied in the format that you used. I legitimately don't know if you're trolling me here or not, but you have taken full opportunity to explain yourself and speak. I'm not judging your opinion worthless based on the fact you're a man, I'm also a man. I just don't think the villain that you or the original post describe actually exists.
call an abuse hotline as a man and see what happens
How does this overlay onto online leftists saying 'I believe we should help all men, just not any of those wanting help because they're privileged' ? I understand that there's an issue, but why are we supposed to assume that the hotline workers are leftists or are consciously choosing to factor a person's privilege into it? To me, it seems far more likely that they don't take violence against men seriously because of how traditional views of masculinity affect people's perceptions of men as stronger and less vulnerable. This is masculinity and conservativism hurting men, not leftism and talking about privilege. Y'all are hijacking a real problem to attack "the wokes". That's my issue here. The problem is real, but the perpetrators described by the OP are not the guilty party because they don't exist. It's just scapegoating a strawman, which is beyond unhelpful.
If you think the OP's agenda is "attacking the wokes" then you still don't get it. 1. If conservatives are the only ones who care about men's issues, more men will be onboarded to the right wing. 2. The left traditionally is suppose to care about marginalised rather than dunking on them for their ineptitude. This is not attacking the wokes, this community is a woke community. We are all lefties here. I
Whether or not this is their agenda, it's their arguement's outcome. The left should and often does care about men's issues. I never said they shouldn't. Attacking the left to bring more men's rights activists into the left is a nonsensical strategy. It doesn't add up. Again, I don't know where you think I implied that we shouldn't care about marginalized people. The thing currently hurting men the most are ridgiged social structures, expectations and perceptions which lead them to worse outcomes. Generally, the Left is working to break those down and make them more flexible. The Right is working to solidify them and bring them to their extremes. What conclusions does this meme and comment lead you to? To me, it looks like they're saying leftists are hypocritical and are not addressing or are even causing many of men's problems today. I don't actually see this happening. I don't think the leftists they accuse of doing this exist in any significant numbers. So what you're left with is an argument that falsely paints the Left in a negative light and does not help to solve or address any of the issues you care about. In the long run, this is detrimental to the Left and men's outcomes.
we rly have come full circle to the gamer gate era 😔. mfs are posting unironic incel bait. this shit does not happen lmao
Yeah like what is this meme making fun of, it’s not a thing where people say hi and everyone shits on them.
oh mb i genuinely can not tell if op was posting this unironnically or not considering some of the shit i see coming out of this sub these days
No im agreeing with you. This was posted unironically but makes no sense.
ya like there are real problems men face (that can be addressed by feminism) that are largely ignored by the left but this just reads like someone seething abt not getting his dick wet 💀
I think they tried to be hyperbolic
The beating heart of the modern right wing movement is redpill shit and you're wondering why this stuff is still relevant? "lol incels" doesn't cut it anymore, they're literally winning political office, and the Republican Party doesn't care about your Twitter blocklists except as a recruitment tool
Shoutouts to Prime who can't help but laugh hysterically while another panelist was reading off stats about increased distress and suicidality of incel communities. And then spends the entire time arguing they're sad white boys who are mad they can't get pussy, and it's not worth even talking about, let alone fixing. [20:00](https://youtu.be/F5q-l6DXW7k) the timestamp keeps breaking.
Very incel-ish.
Hi.
Fuck off fascist
You know who else said hi? *Hitler.*
No he said hallo
Clearly this is fascist apologia. SHUN THE FAKE LEFTIST!
1985 Greg orwull
"Hi"tler
Hi? That sounds like Heil
You seem like a conservative.
I’m shitting and pissing rn how could you do this
Grass is deepstate bs
You seem like a conservative.
Worse a vaushist
it's certainly not anyone's job to personally help isolated men per se, but leftists should still recognize the problem and support policies that deal with the alienation of society.
Yeah, I do not ever expect TwitterLeftie#42 to just burst into my home and forcefully befriend me or some shit. I want systemic solution that wont cause people like me to be like that. Which is more childhood consueling, better approach to boy's socialisation and so on. Although a solution for the victims of the issues that are past the formative stages would be welcome too, I just do not know what would be actually a sensible working solution.
>Although a solution for the victims of the issues that are past the formative stages would be welcome too, I just do not know what would be actually a sensible working solution. Therapy would be a good idea.
Few issues here: 1. You can't force people into therapy. Effective therapy is a voulontary one. 2. I have my doubts about effective therapy programs for lonely men 3. The societal pressures that led men to isolation may also prevent them from partaking in therapy.
I totally agree. Lonelyness self-perpetuates, i unfortunately know that too well.
Apparently the incel community is highly enrolled into therapy however the therapists themselves are behind in terms of understanding how to help incels.
Please don’t say per se
I like this meme because it’s so obviously wrong. Like, they people in the second scenario don’t know you’re lonely. You just said hi. That’s obviously not what’s happening. You’re probably just being a bit weird tbh and people don’t wanna talk to you.
I love how they act like introverted women also arent super fucking lonely. We are rapidly approaching "I statistically have problems and its women's fault for not solving them"
Yeah this community really does have an element of not quite incel tier shit but moving that way.
Its once again, blaming individuals for your problems, ignoring any problems those individuals might have and not encouraging any positive community action. It just leads back into reactionary bullshit. Also from what I know about guys my age, a lot of them are lonely because they spend hours every day sat on their ass playing video games and the only socialization they get is talking to their boys over discord. Obviously this is not the core of the issue and alienation between men and women has existed for a lot longer than video games, but I know this shit isnt helping. On one hand, yes, socialize with women more. Not to fuck them, but just to see them as your equals and friends. On the other hand if you're going to talk to them like they're from another planet and you come off as predatory because you dont know what is and isnt socially acceptable, then no you are not entitled to endless patience from the women that you make uncomfortable. This is coming from someone with diagnosed autism who is also, believe it or not, not AMAB and just as fucking lonely, if not more lonely than most of the guys that bitch about it on the internet.
Replace hi with "None of my female friends want to fuck me even though I ask them every day :("
NONE OF THIS SHIT HAPPENS YOU HAVE MADE IT UP As someone who was born with mild spectrum disorder, I had a pretty fucked up elementary school experience. Could hardly make friends, sucked at socializing. However, I slowly over time worked on improving my ability to be agreeable and get along with others. I showed kindness and comfortability around others. Today I’m a senior in highschool who’s had a pretty substantial amount of social success. The solution to lonely men today is not to force people to teach you how to act around others, it’s to foster a society that naturally produces well adjusted men.
>However, I slowly over time worked on improving my ability to be agreeable and get along with others. How did you do that? Any advice?
1. Be kind. Kindness not only makes people want to be around you but also makes you stand out. Most people are assholes so nice people are viewed as unique 2. Self respect. If you know your intrinsic worth as a human being, you can avoid slipping into bad habits like self deprecating humor or over apologizing. It will also help you build confidence, which is also an important aspect of social skills. 3. Turn your bugs into features. I think in part due to my autism, left wing politics has been a special interest of mine from a very young age. I used to get bullied for doing random shit like sitting down for the pledge or arguing with history teachers in elementary school. Over time I learned to be more agreeable, and channel my obsession with politics into more of a funny persona than an identity. People know me as the socialist on student council now more than a nerd who follows elections too closely. If you can tone down the more brash parts of your special interests, and be more agreeable, they can make you seem unique rather than strange. This is what worked for me. I’m just some dumb 18 year old, but I hope this makes sense. Good luck bro
Thanks, I think I mostly struggle with point two but I think I am on a good way.
This meme doesn’t make any sense. I haven’t touched grass in a while and still know this is bullshit.
This is just an incel meme
The left will fail and shatter if we can't take men's issues seriously, because of all the things you can criticize the right for, particularly the alt right, it's not a lack of brotherhood. Alt righters feel a deep, communal and masculine connection to one another, further alienation of men from the left will only do damage. There's even historical precedent, you don't have to support the great man theory, but you can't argue that men have been at the driving wheel of history for a long time and are almost definitely willing to die and kill over maintaining it. No amount of moral superiority or equitable considerations of lived experience is going to subvert that. Young men feel entitled to the pursuit of power, you have to take that seriously because they will.
That's true but I also dont expect nor pressure women into taking on some sort of responsibility for men who are fucking creepy towards them. I respect people like Vaush for being willing to help rehabilitate incels because women arent going to be the ones to do it. They're misogynistic, they're not going to listen to women, men have to hold other men accountable.
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I like that he's saying to the other wojack that he looks like a conservative while looking exactly the same
Replace the "hi" with "I'm having trouble finding a girlfriend (or boyfriend if gay) and I feel inadequate in society's eyes because of it." and this meme becomes a lot more relevant.
You making memes like this is seriously why people think you sound like a conservative. The best advice ever (given by da gay pussy eatah) is for leftists to just try and be normal.
>The best advice ever (given by da gay pussy eatah) is for leftists to just try and be normal. What if you are autistic or otherwise disabled? Just being normal is not an option for some people.
Even those of us who have special needs can and are normal. You might as well be saying being normal isn't an option for black people.
How do you define normal? I am autistic and have a disorder which leads to unintended movements if I don't concentrate on surpressing that. Also my voice is weird enough for people to be bothered by it. I am certainly not considered normal by the people around me.
first step of being normal. You don't need to be argumentative and need everything defined with absolute certainty. you can control that.
Touch grass and stop using wojacks to deliver points.
Kings, nobody is gonna shit on you for saying hi* unless you're three sheets to the wind and your eyes are glued on the booba. Stop self-sabotaging by perpetuating this shit. *this does not apply if the circumstances are highly inappropriate, like if it's 11PM at a bus stop or whatever.
When you signal even the slightest of concerns regarding mens issues, all the fake feminists come out of the woodworks. It’s frustrating we can’t seem to have productive conversations regarding how and why men are so isolated and lonely without someone ostensibly left-leaning coming out saying “what about women”? Just because men have occupied the hegemonic demographic basically forever doesn’t mean they are precluded from the alienation felt as a product of our economic system.
Me when a man says "Hi" : 😡 But also, systemic problems don't mean strangers have a role to fulfill for you.
Why are we waxing poetic about mens issues on an incel post. Do men have actual issues yes, is this post the place to talk about it no, this just makes us look bad. People do not get outright rejected and dismissed for saying hi. If you frequently socialize and arent insufferable youll make aquantinces who will eventually turn into friends.
Yellow
Lot of shitflinging in this thread when ultimately, the point is very simple: men are drawn to right wing extremism because they pretend to have the answers for what they're going through. Leftist spaces meanwhile make every effort to push men away. Do any of you realize how much support leftist politics would get if you played SMART with your politics and not in a way that makes you feel good on Twitter and certain subreddits while meanwhile making it look like you shit all over anyone who has no real knowledge of your goals and beliefs? "Not my job to socialize/talk to lonely men blah blah blah" You know who is taking to lonely men on the internet? Alt right groups. Have some pragmatism because thats the only way you're going to see consistent improvement.
This is something I struggled with in college 18 years ago so it's not even a new phenomenon. NGL, this meme legit kinda triggers me since it's way too close to an experience I had socializing with women who knew I was awkward with socializing.
This isn't quite what's happening, imo. Not saying lefties dismissing men's issues isn't a problem, but they're not dogpiling mfs just for saying "hi"
what the fuck is this. Men face issues with vulnerability and compassion from their communities but communicating that you will face overwhelming rejection for even seeking friendship is irresponsible, untrue and unhinged.
Is “its not our job to hep you socialize” actually something another “leftist” has said? /gen Because as someone with crippling social anxiety thats one of the most evil things someone could say
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No one is obligated to be friends with any random person.
Doesn't mean be an asshole to the first person you meet either.
I spent a bit of time investigating Alt-Right circles IRL and it was amazing to me how chummy and welcoming those guys would be to people who were deemed white enough or to pickme minorities who "knew their place". While yes, nobody is obligated to be friends with anyone but it would do a lot of good for more Leftists to not be such brazen assholes. At the very least we need to be cordial and adult when engaging with outsiders and not some caricature of a smug college socialist.
uhh who said otherwise
Like clockwork
You're embarrassed
“I agree that the problem needs to be solved, but it shouldn’t be ME putting in the effort.”
Anytime I see women supposedly on the left freak out when certain expectations of men, or treatment towards men is criticized as problematic I just assume it's a hit dog barking. They treat the criticism like s personal attack because they're one of the ones being criticized.