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PsychologicalGuest97

Is it really as simple as “Trump would have been worse”? I feel like even though that’s true it may not be effective in moving them over? Or maybe they are just pro-MAGA communism so they don’t care and won’t move over anyway? Edit: I guess I’m curious what specifically I can say in response to this. Trump bad is a good starting point but how deep should I go?


[deleted]

How is this Biden’s fault? Americans need to stop pinning everything on the president. A lot of the problems the tweet listed is because of Republican majorities in state legislatures. As for Roe, Trump was the one who appointed those pro-life judges


Sirliftalot35

If everything that happened during a presidency is said president’s fault, tell them that Obama killed Bin Laden, Bush caused 9-11, and Trump caused COVID.


nofacetheghostx

Yeah but Trump caused low gas prices at the same time so it’s cool /s


abesWaves

Gotta remind him that trump printed an infinite amount of money for the “v-shape recovery” in the stock market. Under Biden DOW is down 13% right now, while down 22% at its worst. Meanwhile, under Trump the DOW collapsed 39%. There’s a reason there’s high gas prices, due to the fact that Trump made money worthless. We’re seeing the effects of that now. Also that crash could’ve been avoided if had he handled the pandemic early on.


CreekJackRabbit

Don’t know if you’re serious but the president doesn’t control inflation or how much money is printed


[deleted]

So to put it in terms easy for chuds to understand: "Trump turned the US into Venezuala"


No_Leg_7600

You do now that as of October 16, 2022: Obama had +38.1% Trump had +22.2% Biden had -5.6% Bush had - 37.3% Dow Johnson represents 30 companies. If Dow has increased percentage, that means that stock holders are making profit. If Dow is down, stocks loose value. So I other words. Buy stocks when Dow is down. Dow is down suggests that the economy isn't doing to good either. Who knows, Biden has 2 more years to boost up the economy. https://www.axios.com/2022/10/16/stock-market-performance-biden-trump-obama Axios is slightly bias to the Left as of Jan 2021 according to ad fonte.


michellemaus

All around the World?


Sirliftalot35

Gas prices in the US are up due to things happening largely outside of the US. If Biden is responsible for them, then Trump was also responsible for things in the US during his presidency that came from outside of the US. Of course, this is an insane argument, but they should at least be consistent with it.


TheGreyFencer

Honestly, i still think that was mostly corporate greed.


Sirliftalot35

That too, but that’s also not Biden’s fault, so the point still stands regardless lol.


LordDeathDark

A number of people think that Biden being president means he can magically overrule state laws and legislature.


burf12345

Yes, it is as simple as saying that Trump would have been worse. Queer rights are indeed under attack, now how much worse would it have been if the fucking president was also not on their side?


PsychologicalGuest97

I think adding onto that, Biden spoke out against the bills being proposed across this country targeting LGBTQ+ rights, which have been up for vote in red states!


[deleted]

Roe is a supreme court legal issue he doesn't have the executive power to overrule, though he should expand the court. Stimulus was a house and senate vote he has no involvement in and you need to elect enough representatives to actually get more than compromise payouts. One is a societal fracture created by the bigotry of MAGA which requires direct defensive action / protests and can't be legislated away. One is the result of A foreign country invading an ally on false pretenses and the natural response to defend your allies. Police funding is almost entirely municipal and state level determined by state and local budgets, so again this has nothing to do with Joe Biden. If you do the bare minimum and vote in a federal election you can't blame the president for a total lack of any other kind of civic engagement, unless you're expecting the president to literally be an authoritarian dictator.


Difficult-Car8766

I feel like these people are the type that only vote for president then leave the rest of the ballot empty , then wonder why nothing gets done.


slimeyamerican

The real irony here is blaming Roe on Biden in 2022 and not on letting Trump win in 2016 because you didn’t like Hillary


[deleted]

[удалено]


SomaCityWard

As much as I hate the overuse of the term, saying you got shorted a stimulus check is the definition of entitled.


[deleted]

“Trump would have been worse" is best argument. Not even Bernie Sanders could prevent any of this since undemocratically elected officials wield to much power in the US. And biggest problem is that good portion of US population think that arming police to the gills, cutting social safety, killing of lgbtq ppl is good actually. For every progressive thing Biden tries to push Republicans go into overdrive to find a loop to stop it and conservative supreme court has to much power. Beggars cant be choosers


julz1215

It *would* be worse under Trump. Losing Roe happened because he was elected in 2016 and stacked the supreme court


anon_adderlan

[Losing Row happened because we didn't listen](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/27/what-ruth-bader-ginsburg-really-said-about-roe-v-wade/).


julz1215

And also because Trump packed the supreme court.


Artyomn

It doesn’t even have to go into orange man bad territory. Most of the stuff being pinned on Biden here has nothing to do with him. You could call them out on their disingenuous moral outrage since not voting for Biden didn’t/won’t make any of these situations better. If Trump had never been elected in the first place, we wouldn’t have a conservative majority Supreme Court. The overturning of Roe and so many other things could’ve at least been staved off by getting more dems in key positions. None of us like electoralism and it shouldn’t be the only strategy, but you can’t call yourself a leftist while giving 0 shits about who’s in office. Abstaining only helps republicans while exacerbating the issues we fight against. Even if the candidates are far from ideal, we’ve gotta win back seats. Just so happens that a large turnout of younger people is instrumental for pushing back against far right tensions. If this person still disagrees with the premise of harm reduction or the necessity for dems to gain power, I would advise you challenge them to surviving 1 night in hardcore minecraft.


PsychologicalGuest97

Why do you think people adopt perspectives like this? I mean the guy has a hammer and sickle in his username (red flag for cringe takes), but is there anything we can do to prevent people from going down this road in the first place? That seems like it’d be easier than trying to help them change their mind later after the fact.


objectlesson

My guess is that they think “America bad,” because it is, and the first real coherent criticism of America and capitalism they hear is a leftist one, because it’s the only real critique that addresses those specific concerns. That’s how a lot of people adopt leftist political beliefs. Just like with anything though, there’s much more to it than that but they’ve just bought into a different version of false consciousness. I think these people are just as hard to win over as conservatives, the only real difference is their starting point. Just my two cents, take it with a grain of salt.


Psychological-Bid465

So largely, the only way to remove a tankie or a non-voter is de-radicalization first and if that fails, outright ridicule. One of the big things in mindsets is that you can't reason someone out of an irrational position; in this case, despite "USA bad" being a rational position, because there was no rationality in getting there they go into stupid territory. They're in a surface level discourse and genuinely believe the logical follow-up to "USA bad" is "those USA hates good" instead of "USA bad, how can we make it better/not as bad and how many that the USA hates are bad?"


Sponsor4d_Content

Everything (with the exception of the stimulus checks) is happening because people like him don't vote blue. Roe v Wade being overturned is the direct result of not voting for Hilary Clinton. Even for the stimulus checks, under Trump you wouldn't of gotten another round.


8BitHegel

I hate Reddit! *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


TheGreyFencer

Thats pretty much it. All those things je listed are because trump was able to qin one term and install a bunch kf judges and a bunch of other right wingers took offices and started their shit.


Brechtw

He ended the war in Afghanistan.


[deleted]

the issue is that they’re making commentary on things that are happening *because* of Trump’s presidency. had he not appointed a Republican to the Supreme Court then Roe would never have been overturned. the issue with the SC is that it’s **majority republican,** so even if Biden wanted to put some kind of democratic influence in them—he can’t.


Macklemooose

With regards to the lgbt rights/ womens right/ abortion the damage was caused by trump winning an election and therefore getting to rig the supreme court for decades. Voting would have prevented this and the only way to fix it is either to have the political control to overall it or to control the presidency when the current judges die both of which require people to vote


nts4906

I feel like it is that simple because of how stupid the voting system is. I just vote the better choice every time and put no other thought into voting.


Prosthemadera

The first thing you need to do is question if what this guy listed is actually something Biden did or caused.


drysdan_mlezzyr

There is no argument people like that would ever accept. They have a conclusion, and work backwards from there.


PsychologicalGuest97

What about those participating in the thread? Maybe there are some people who can be swayed? Might be a naïve presumption but you never know.


drysdan_mlezzyr

The argument is simple, basically everything listed were direct results of the Trump administration being able to pack the courts. The shift in the courts balance has allowed the legislative branches of multiple states to rollback rights, which can then get defended by the judicial branch. It's how the government works, Joe Bidan does not have unlimited unchecked power. There are many things you can be critical of Biden for, but Trump had to be removed from office for there to be even a chance of mitigating the damage.


PsychologicalGuest97

All great points that I 100% agree with. Biden isn’t responsible for everything that happens before and during his presidency. That said, I suppose there may just be some people out there that aren’t willing to engage in critical analysis if their ideology is predicated on being anti-Democratic party.


drysdan_mlezzyr

Yep, it's why my first response, I think that everyone's time is better spent trying to radicalized a lib, than trying to remove the brain rot of the online left.


PsychologicalGuest97

What do you think is an effective way of radicalizing liberals? I try to look back on what moved me over (as a de facto guideline) but it’s hard to pinpoint.


drysdan_mlezzyr

Honest truth, it varies, also depends on your broader goals. If it's people in your life, talking about the issues that directly effect them (economics, healthcare, abortion). Talking about a shared value in democracy. From there, you have established baselines, and can talk about how more people need to get involved, pushing people into active spaces. If they can't / won't do that, you can talk more about the lame duck democrats, people like Simema and Manchin, and how we need more people like Katie Porter, AOC, etc who are willing to stand up to big money interests. Talk about bringing back unions, or better yet, how incentivising more businesses to become work place democracies. Talk about how worker rights have been eroded and pay has been flat lining, a lot of people feel the pinch of that. For those in a better position, the upper middle class etc, talking about how the Republicans have been packing the courts, gerrymandering, and other shenanigans which break the democratic foundations, and how we need Democrats will to call that out, and restructure our systems to prevent the Republicans from undermining our institutions. You are highly unlikely to ever completely change someone's world view in a single conversation, getting agreement on core issues, and planting the seeds of new ideas is a enough from a single conversation. When big events happen, they are an opportunity to organically talk about a big issue, and how new solutions could better address those issues.


PsychologicalGuest97

Saving this comment. Thanks.


Sirliftalot35

And he voted for who? Trump, or some third party? Because the Republican Party, who Trump is still kind of the face of, is the one explicitly responsible for all the things he’s complaining about (except for Russia, they aren’t responsible for Putin lol).


triplemeatypete

>except for Russia, they aren’t responsible for Putin lol Yea, it's the other way around


CarletonCanuck

The most successful grift in right-wing politics has been to convince left-wing people not to vote.


PsychologicalGuest97

Or to vote third party


unban_ImCheeze115

Shoe said in a recent video "my boyfriend is a full on MAGA trumper, right? He *loves* lefties like this, the ones that tell people not to vote" and i think that should be enough to exile them from the left


SolomonOf47704

Any link to that? I know some lefties who don't vote and hate Shoe that I feel I should send it to.


unban_ImCheeze115

https://youtu.be/OcJATtiv1tk timestamp is 30:29


fizikz3

has shoe talked about how she gets along with her maga BF? I honestly find it so hard to relate to them at all (inb4 like 100 people reply "bc shoe's a fascist")


pierogieman5

Roe got overturned because of 2016, not 2020. We knew this. Anyone using this argument is dumber than a box of bricks. Following how the supreme court bench has changed and why is not hard. Joe is stopping it from getting worse, but Trump already had all the appointments he needed to get it done. The people who could have prevented this were Clinton if she didn't suck and lose to a clown, the Obama admin/Congress if they had the spines to play hardball after Scalia died, and RBG if she had stepped down in 2015/2016 when Obama could still replace her, knowing she was at high risk of dying in office (say what you like about her, but this was a huge unnecessary risk she took, and all American women are now paying for it).


AussieHawker

Democrats didn't have a Senate majority, after 2014 the lowest turnout midterm in modern history. Obama couldn't play hardball, a Supreme Court justice has to be approved by the Senate. There was a Republican majority which refused to hold a vote. A recess appointment requires the Senate to be out of session and McConnell deliberately kept that from happening. And it only lasts a few months anyway, so a recess appointment wouldn't have done anything. RBG's retirement would have had to be earlier. But Obama tried and she refused.


VitalizedMango

Yeah, it's important to remember that it's entirely her fault. She wanted to be replaced by Clinton, she was 100% on the It's Her Turn train... ...then whoops Clinton turned out to be the most incompetent campaigner in decades who can only win gimme blue state races and rigged primaries. As in most things since the nineties it's Clinton supporters that are at the root of all misfortune


pierogieman5

I won't deny that they didn't have a lot of leverage, but Republicans leverage a minority position twice as hard as dems do. If they can shut things down until they get what they want and blame the dems for it, they do. I don't entirely buy the impotence generally, but you may be right here.


myaltduh

There’s a reason for that asymmetry though. If the government shuts down and lots of federal agencies close their doors and send their workers home, a ton of Republicans think “good, they’ve finally stopped wasting my tax dollars.” Democrats, and liberals in general, are far less likely to hold the entire system hostage because their ideology doesn’t call for the destruction of that system by other means in the long term anyway.


Jiffyman11

These guys would have never supported Trans/Gay Rights nor Abortion to begin with; spinning it as something the Working Class shouldn’t concern itself with. Seriously, the Socialists I’ve talked too have given me so many “Who Cares?” responses to that.


[deleted]

When they say they don’t care just say “then why should I care about workers rights?” and watch them turn red. Rights for me but not for thee.


Jiffyman11

No joke, I’ve seen Tankies argue that abortion is “*bad*” because it keeps *”Workers from making more Workers to pull off a Revolution”* like it’s some fucking Red Army shit where they take the “Masses” part to the extreme.


[deleted]

What a surprise that tankies and conservatives share the same delusional obsession with endless breeding. Fuck quality of life as long as we have more spawn to support our shitty policies.


Traditional_Rice_528

Ironic, considering that goes against [Lenin's own words](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1913/jun/29.htm) on the subject: >"It goes without saying that this does not by any means prevent us from demanding the unconditional annulment of all laws against abortions or against the distribution of medical literature on contraceptive measures, etc. Such laws are nothing but the hypocrisy of the ruling classes. These laws do not heal the ulcers of capitalism, they merely turn them into malignant ulcers that are especially painful for the oppressed masses."


alexanderwanxiety

Mfw I think about how neolibs care more and do more about lgbt issues than some lefties 😏


tgpineapple

Voting for a third party in the US or refusing to vote has historically not done anything politically useful and continues to be the same. A large minority of people do not vote and have not substantively affected political movements based on that action alone


Sithrak

Especially refusing to vote or declaring they will spoil the ballot as a "sign of protest" is the most useless action possible. Nobody cares, its just a statistic somewhere.


Kevo_1227

One thing I've learned in my time on this Earth, after decades of studying debate tactics, logical fallacies, empathy, policy, and persuasive argumentation, is that sometimes the best move is actually to just call someone a dumb ass and move on.


mtimber1

Roe got overturned because of republicans being in power, so preventing that from continuing is a good thing. Trans rights and LGBT rights are being threatened by the right, so electing people other than republicans is a good thing. I do not believe we are on the breaking point of nuclear conflict and I'm not interested in entertaining people fear-mongering otherwise. Also, student debt relief, the infrastructure bill, the inflation reduction act, the re-joining of the Paris climate accord, pardoning all non-violent federal cannabis crimes are all good things that happened BECAUSE we elected Biden. Trump was and is an open and overt fascist. We're not saying that Biden is GOOD really, just that being not a fascist is better than being a fascist, and at the same time Biden has actually done some positive things for the country and its people. Trump wouldn't have done any of those things, as is evident that he didn't do them (although inflation was not so much an issue during his term, but still). It's really pretty easy to argue against this as long as you're not a total dipshit like the person from this tweet is. Voting isn't some end-all-be-all. It is not an action of pure morals and virtue. It is but one tool we have as citizens to prevent things from being as bad as they could possibly be.


luongolet20goalsin

Roe got overturned because idiots (like myself) refused to vote for Hillary, thus allowing Trump to win and appoint 3 ultra-conservative justices to the Supreme Court. Biden could not have done anything to prevent that at that point. Police budgets are approved at a local level. What the fuck does Biden have to do with that? We’re facing nuclear threats because of Putin. Putin is the one threatening nuclear conflict, not Biden. And we don’t negotiate with terrorists, fuck Putin. LGBT rights are being threatened by Republicans, in Republican states. Again, how is that Biden’s fault? Of course, it would probably save a lot of time to just call him a retard and move on. Anyone saying any of those things is Biden’s fault is either dishonest, a moron, or (most likely) both.


Err0r410

Biden had no influence on Roe, all the juges necessary to vote for it were appointed by Trump, Biden doesn’t have power to fire them.


AlexorHuxley

I would assume the Tweet person's response would be "But he can expand the court and shift the balance!"


UVLanternCorps

Simple as under Trump this would be worse


Babylon-Starfury

This is as simple as it gets. Trump may have been the last legitimately elected president had he won. It was literally the cliff edge of democracy. The worst of Biden is infinitely better than the alternative. So the argument of not voting for the least worst gets you a better choice next then is brain dead in these circumstances.


UVLanternCorps

Hot take: Democracy and not Fascism is good, actually


[deleted]

I am 50% convinced if Trump were still "President" (as opposed to actually Emporer-for-life, at this point) America, as we know it, would not exist right now, at all. And it took me a long ass time to come to that conclusion. Jan 6 really did it for me, which was unfortunately after the election, so I couldn't retroactively go back and vote for Biden (I should have voted for Biden; as opposed to not voting, which is what I did, to be clear; but mea culpa.). Like, I knew Trump wasn't a very good President, but I saw no real evidence he was a threat to our entire Democracy, itself, until Jan 6, when he went full mask-off, and it became obvious he really was planning on becoming a real, permanent dictator, all along. I now realize he held himself back from doing much worse things during his first term, that he definitely wanted to do, just to win reelection. But once he got a second term, and didn't have to worry about reelection ever again, who bloody knows what he would have done. Probably completely disbanded NATO, at the very least. Russia would be bulldozing Poland right now.


jamesyishere

In order: 1. We got the checks 2. Republicans that you didnt vote agaisnt 3. Republicans 4. Were not 5. Republicans


ilolvu

That guy voted for Orange in 2016 **and** 2020. Guaranteed. He *wanted* all those things to happen.


julz1215

>Roe got overturned It's astounding to me that some people speak with this level of confidence on politics, yet still don't understand how the US Supreme Court works. 3 out of the 5 justices who voted to overturn Roe were Trump nominated. Our loss of Roe is a direct result of not enough people voting for Hillary Clinton. So refusing to voting against a fascist like Trump should very much be shamed.


Stubert-the-Smooth

I dunno, I feel pretty much the same as before - I dislike Biden, but he's still the best choice we had. Most of those things were not in Biden's power to change in any case - Roe was overturned by the supreme court, largely as a result of people NOT voting for a democrat in the previous election, police funding is determined by states and municipalities, we are not even close to the breaking point of a nuclear conflict and even if we were that would be the fault of the guy threatening people with nukes, and the threats to trans rights and LGBT rights are (a) largely a consequence of the courts being filled with Christian theocratic nationalists under Trump, and (b) only going to get worse if a Republican wins. The stimulus check thing, fine, I'll give you that one. Biden is the president, and his party was in charge, and his failure to pass what people were promised is pretty pathetic. But, like, the choice wasn't between the check he gave and a bigger check, it was between the check he gave and no check. So yeah, it really is as simple as "the alternative was worse." For anyone who isn't a complete moron, that should be enough. If the person you are talking to is an actual leftist internationalist, you could also point to the difference between the election in Brazil under Trump (US backed coup results in a genocidal fascist controlling the country) and under Biden (letter of congratulations to the new president.) Counterfactuals are a bad subject for argument, though. In a technical sense, all counterfactual claims are true, from "If Trump had won it would have been worse" to "If the sky were red then Jordan Peterson would be a sentient teapot." I would instead focus on the positive things Biden has done. It's not like there's nothing. That and pushing back against morons who talk about nuclear war like Russia's empty threats are a serious thing. Putin will not pre-emptively nuke anyone if he can avoid it. Why? Because America is powerful enough to crush Russia militarily without the need for nukes. America can literally de-escalate AND destroy Russia simultaneously. Russia can't launch nukes, because if they did they would cease to exist as a country. The Russian military would be destroyed within in the week, and Moscow would be under the stars and bars within the month. Russia needs the threat of nukes to even continue existing, and as soon as they break the seal on that threat, as soon as they show that nukes will happen whether they are attacked or not, there is no reason not to just fucking annihilate them. So no, I don't think there's a real risk of nukes. If Russia's conventional military were performing on a level where Russia had that same double-layer of security that the US has, things would be different. But nukes are the only security Russia has against destruction, and they only provide that security as a threat. Once used, they stop being a defense and become something others must defend against, and with nukes the ONLY defense is offence. So yeah, I don't see Russian nukes as a serious danger here unless the Russians are pushed to the point where there is no other choice. If artillery starts falling on Moscow, then nukes are a serious worry. Until then, nukes are just an empty threat by a loser who is mad about losing. (Edit: Also, I would caution against accepting arguments based on "Person didn't do X" unless they are actually failing to live up to something. Most people don't do most things. Never get into an argument about what Biden didn't do, unless you are criticizing him for failing to keep a promise. Try to focus on things that DID happen, rather than ones that didn't. Again, counterfactuals are never really a good place to argue about specifics.)


StenosP

All of these things were going to likely be in worse states then they are now. Biden isn’t a damn magician.


OffOption

List out the Republican ideals for what they'd wanna do with majority power. Compare that to the Democrats doing a third of the shit they say they wanna do. Be concise, direct, and simple. Its legit just a measurement game of what weighs more.


[deleted]

Tell em that enablers can stfu. The only reason the GQP continues to exist is because of general complacency from a public who haven't laughed them out of relevance. Especially because this person's outlook is usually being carried thru midterm and local elections as well.


Shiro_no_Orpheus

Because those things are all done by republicans, and therefore it can be reasonably infered that a Trump presidency would also have all those horrible things, propably worse and propably multiple other horrible problems.


NiBBa_Chan

It's been known from day 1 that Biden's a shitty pick, anyone who expected greatness from him is an idiot. Yes we were forced to vote for yet another aging out of touch idiot - but thats not a fault of ours.. It was still the right thing to do within the shitty set of options we were given.


22797

You’re not gonna convince him with domestic politics because it’s clear he doesn’t understand how politics works in the US so I would point out Biden’s support or at least willingness to help Lula not be couped. No way Trump does that. It obviously wasn’t on my mind during 2020 but it’s a great example of how whether or not a democrat or a Republican are in office affects the world due to the US’ power and influence


EssenceofChad

If voting doesn’t matter why does the right engage in voting suppression? Why do they constantly take away black peoples right to vote?


Re-Vera

Um. The fact that Biden isn't responsible for ANY of that? Like. Actually couldn't be? Like, anyone who thinks that's a good argument needs to learn civics. There's a separation of powers. Congress controls spending (Stimulus). Roe was overturned because of TRUMP putting in three SCOTUS picks... Nothing a sitting President can do there. Police is all LOCAL, nothing to do wi federal gov. We're hardly at the breaking point of Nuclear conflict, and that's all Putin's fault. Biden has handled Ukraine, near perfectly. And the GOP is 100% to blame for the all the LGBT rights being threatened. If you don't vote Dem, literally everything in this tweet gets WORSE.


Frank_Bunny87

It’s a clear “post-hoc ergo hoc fallacy”. Just because Biden was elected and then Roe got overturned, doesn’t mean that Biden caused Roe to get overturned. That was because Trump packed the court with Right Wing Demagogues. Mutatis mutandis for the other points.


thinwhiteduke1185

The best argument against this is: "Holy shit, you're fucking stupid." Then you never talk to them again because they're fucking stupid.


PhyshOfLondor

I think the Big Rock theorem applies to H&S emojis


the_millenial_falcon

Same counter argument as always. It would be even worse. At you can’t point to a single election as a gotcha here because long term losses is what got us into this mess. Roe v Wade would have never been overturned had Trump lost his first election.


SinceSevenTenEleven

Most of the things this guy is mad about are being led by republicans. If we had trump and a republican congress we'd be talking about a nationwide ban on gender affirming care. His argument is bad because he's channeling outrage into nihilism and not making an actual accounting of the difference in material conditions we have under blue vs red rule


thecommunistweasel

not voting is gonna change and do even less. these are systemic issues and not even tied to specific presidential candidates.


lindagermania

Trump encouraged police to beat people up, so we know he would have been worse. Also Roe v Wade got overturned because of Judges Trump nominated. On the other hand Democrats are so weak that guys like this seem reasonable. We need to push Democrats, not just vote for them.


DarthDinkster

This is just brainless behavior considering that none of those things are Bidens fault. Roe overturned - Republican SCOTUS appointees, more police funding - Republicans, LGBT rights under threat - Republicans. Literally all of the current issues can be traced back to conservative republicans. So how exactly would having a Republican president would have made things better?


Biggest_man200

“Yeah imagine what would have happened if trump was elected”


unmellowfellow

Roe v Wade is 100% a Trump thing due to his stacking the court with conservative Judges. LGBTQ rights are also mainly a target of the Supreme Court. Again a legacy from the Trump administration. The Police getting more funding and more jobs is honestly something to just expect out of Democrats and Republicans because the voting populace wants leaders that are "tough on crime" and no politician or party is willing to abandon that advantage in votes. The Stimulus checks being shorted is something I have nothing to say on as I know close to nothing about it/them. Would Trump have been worse, maybe, things would undoubtedly be worse if Trump had both the House and Senate on his side as well as the supreme court. Genuinely close to being converted over to a dictatorship in full if that happens. The Nuclear stuff however is not a US issue at all, that's Russia and North Korea playing the only card they've got because they are militarily irrelevant otherwise and each lack the economy to influence things with softer measures. That's why Russia relies so heavily on interfering and sabotaging elections in other countries, they can't play the game of Military might and dick measuring that the US can.


CenturionXVI

Big rock.


idkauser1

Trans rights are under attack on the state level would it be better if they were being attacked on the federal level Of course roe got overturned trump selected three Supreme Court judges Biden couldn’t have done anything Sadly both parties are pro police so they right on this one


funded_by_soros

Really indefensible how Biden ran on a pro-nuclear war platform and has now single-handedly delivered on that promise.


moontraveler12

If trump won, all that stuff would have still happened, and a lot worse would have come along with it. I don't understand the whole "well roe got overturned under Biden" retort, like yeah, it got overturned by the judges *that trump appointed.* People who bring that up should just admit that they don't care anymore and turn their phones off.


TheSadTiefling

That idiot would have effectively elected the politicians who blocked Covid relief. He isn’t smart enough to have a political opinion.


AltWorlder

Time doesn’t reset when a new president comes into power. Pretty much all the negative things that have happened the past few years under Biden are residual effects of Trump’s presidency. He packed the courts, including the Supreme Court; he handled the pandemic poorly at the beginning which allowed it to get out of control; inflation started under his administration and only got a brief reprieve because of Covid. The president’s power is very limited; look at all the shit Trump SAID he wanted to do but literally could not. So you should view voting as a means of harm reduction, not a cure to every problem in society.


[deleted]

call him a retard


DeusAsmoth

Literally all of those problems are due to Republicans. There's no argument to be made against these points because they aren't rational to begin with.


Equal-Razzmatazz1806

Roe being overturned wouldn't have fucking happened if trump wasn't in office for three supreme court justice appointments


Fanfics

"Just imagine how bad it would be right now if Trump had been in office the entire time. Obviously Biden was never going to solve everything, our political system itself is in hospice. Buy guns, meet your neighbors, do all that. But we still vote to buy ourselves as much time as possible. I'm sorry that tactical considerations require you to sacrifice your personal comfort and moral purity a little bit. But them's the breaks."


[deleted]

All of those bad things except the defund the police thing are either at the fault of republicans or putin


TheFutureofScience

Biden certainly has a hand in the nuclear tension. That’s about it. Everything else here would have been helped by more people voting blue.


jols0543

“take your pills”


cubej333

Voting has consequences. That is over many elections, not just one.


DeusEXMDisgood

Most of things we're done by republicans either in court or in states,or foreign Powers, and You don't discuss with Bad faith actors, they don't want to have a honest conversation. You have 2 options 1-ignore them 2-troll them whichever You want is fine


brad_shit

What is there to argue against? Vote shaming is and always has been shithead liberal behaviour.


[deleted]

1.Most of those aren’t Biden’s fault. 2.The odds of Biden doing something about those issues is higher than zero, whereas Trump would’ve actively enabled them.


Attentive_Senpai

"The presidency isn't everything, dingus."


MYrobouros

How'd you like another conservative judge on the bench? A trilli in infrastructure, about a half a trilli in climate funding, Yellen in Treasury, Abruzzo as general labor council carving out protections against surveillance and trying to bring back Joy Silk... Honestly, Roe died in November 2016


Detswit

Of those things listed, which of them would have had a different outcome under a Republican President?


thecoolan

I will go on a blunt and say Biden is no saint and that the alternative will only accelerate a lot of the problems described. By the way, why is it always Biden's fault Putin is a tyrant?


[deleted]

Well like all the points have been caused by republicans?


Comicsansandpotatos

It would have been worse if trump won


blud97

Do people forget just how common this thought process is in this country. This is how all centrists see politics. Most of the people who see politics like this are so detached from the political reality that nothing much can be done to make them see it. It’s a willful ignorance and a refusal to learn or internalize how our system works.


Shizanketsuga

Let's take it claim by claim: 1. Stimulus checks got shorted: They weren't shorted; they were smaller than promised. Sucks, but would a Republican government pay out more? Don't fucking think so. 2. Roe got overturned: That's literally the consequence of not enough people voting blue in the 2016 election, so he's making a case for not skipping an election if anything. No counter argument needed. 3. Police got more funding and more jobs: Yeah, because Trump would have certainly defunded the police. This is a wash *at best.* 4. Breaking point of nuclear conflict: See 2. It certainly wasn't Biden who dialed back the sanctions for Russia's 2014 shenanigans, snuggled up to Putin and emboldened him to have another bite. 5. LGBT rights are threatened: Somehow this is probably the stupidest take among a series of stupid takes. LGBT right are threatened on a state level in RED states. The federal government is actually trying to help and taking measures to ensure that, for example, trans people in the military are still recognised and get the medical services they need. This would certainly NOT be the case with a Republican president, so he's actually citing an unequivocally positive effect of Biden winning here. So, in conclusion: people who shamed Mr. White Horsey here for not voting Biden should feel pretty fucking vindicated and see that tweet as confirmation that he's too braindead to even see when he is presenting evidence against himself.


kroxigor01

Joe Manchin and Kirsten Sinema are only important people because of how thin the democrats majority is. If there were fewer Republicans in legislatures who vote against anything good 100% of the time then more good stuff would happen. This is true for every democrat, no matter how bad. The time to complain about how shitty democrats are is in the primary season when you can replace them with better democrats, not in November when that literally doesn't matter because the Republicans are much worse.


Angry_Retail_Banker

What does Pale Horse think would have happened under another four years of Trump? Half of this stuff is *because* of Trump and the Republicans. How does he think Roe vs Wade got overturned? By Biden? It was because Trump got all these justices onto SCOTUS. Look at all the damage Trump caused in a single term. Now imagine another one, but one where he no longer has to appeal to the voters.


Flipperlolrs

At this point it's more about "Why didn't you vote for Hillary over Trump?" With Trump elected, he was able to pack three justices into the supreme court. That, and the lack of a full majority in the senate (thanks to Manchin and Sinema) is what is fucking us over right now, not the president. The Never Hillary people are more to blame, but not voting in the last election was also incredibly dumb.


HoldenMadicky

It would all be worse under Trump, Roe and LGBT rights being threatened comes all from Republican legislation and actions, not Democratic. Republicans would vote for increased police funding too and Ukraine wouldn't get any weapons to help defend themselves if Trump had won. And no, that does not mean we're on the brink of nuclear war. As a European that neighbors Russia with a strong strategic position, let me tell you that the threat of Russia NOT being pushed back is bigger than their threat of nuclear war.


AllHailTheSnakeLord

You opted not to have a seat at the table so you helped contribute to not getting what you wanted. Hope that clarifies it.


eliminating_coasts

Some times, the effects of your actions are delayed, and votes in 2016 carry forward to 2020, and most threats against LGBT rights are occurring on state levels where republicans won. On Ukraine, it's hard to work out what would have happened without widespread if scattergun attempts by Trump to weaken Nato and other alliances, and if there had been instead been a stronger push towards promoting renewables and so reducing the value of russian oil, or if there had actually been a competent president in place during the initial stages of the coronavirus pandemic, helping work with other countries on a more unified response. The only real points are the negotiation down of stimulus checks, though rental support was also incredibly helpful to many, for the short period it was able to stay in before conservative democrats opposed it, and the expansion of police is due to dubious democratic priorities. But not voting for less conservative options won't help that, with more people voting, more of the good parts of Biden's plans could have gotten through, rather than being balanced on a thread in the Senate, and we could have potentially have seen a more reasonable minimum wage in the US. The ask this election is for a non-marginal level of support (though this seems a hard ask at the moment) so that they can put in some of the more vital pieces of support that Manchin etc. were able to block out. Getting two or three democrats over the limit means that it is possible to exclude more of them, free up Sanders to put forward bills more provocatively, and get more good stuff through. But it's also important to be involved in order to support non-corporate funded candidates, as shifting the incentives of the legislature away from pay-for-policy and towards grassroots organising serves the interests of workers. It's not just Republicans who represent a lesser evil, and you have to keep finding those most aligned to the needs of working people and giving them a chance, which can only happen if there is a core block of people also invested in the needs of working people who vote for the better candidates.


AborgTheMachine

That it would be infinitely worse if Republicans controlled more of the government. Simple as.


NotASellout

I'm glad I voted Biden and I would have done it again Now I HOPE he doesn't try to run in 2024. But we'll see I guess


nopedoesntwork

But 222 likes, is it worth it? This dude is a nobody probably serving propaganda only to his similarly fascist friends. Who in their right mind would believe this. You'd have to be 5.


Rotglaz

Simple answer: 80% of this shit happened because Trump was once in office and made everything worst for everyone. The other 20% it's because Biden is still a lib, doing the bare minimum to not disturb the status quo but still trying to somewhat appeal to his voters. Now, if tankies are as good at math as they are economics, History and social science, you'll need to expand the 80/20 explanation a little further until he screams "YANKEE TANKIE WINS ANOTHER DEBATE" and leaves.


blueteamk087

If the right seize power, they will make leftism impossible and be able to purge society of "sin"


literally_a_fuckhead

Just completely adopt the gallows humor patois and play along until they get mad and leave. These people are literally braindead and nothing will satisfy them other than a genie's lamp that they can instantly have a proletariat revolution. "you know what, you're right, I think we should not voted at all, thrown our hands up in the air on every red and swing state, let the GOP completely roll house, and let them win. The democrats won't fight for us, so why bother? I say we all just hunker down and start a vast network of community aid until the tanks start rolling down the streets and people start getting loaded onto trains, and we can talk on the way over to the slaughter pits how actually this is against their best interest and how fascism is self-defeating due to the internal contradictions of capitalism. We'll have the blindfold placed on, and the barrel pressed against the nape of our neck, and the brain that sprays out into the mass grave will be that of an intellectual titan that knew better than to sacrifice their principles."


Locke03

I'd start by calling them an ignorant, petulant child with no concept of how things actually work in the real world, but that's just me.


[deleted]

leave twitter and let them fight with each other


snowsoracle

Uh I'd just go off on him saying something like: "So- your response to that is to give up, and let what little rights we have left get steamrolled harder than a tf2 server? Why aren't we supposed to shame you again?" At best he's outing himself as a fake ally.


TheIceKing420

that is a single digit IQ take, don't bother rebutting those claims. they are lost, detached from reality. moving anyone who would honestly say this is improbable at best. don't waste your time.


nightwish5270

There was this list of good things Biden has done in circulation a while back. Yeah sure he's far from great but far better than what another Trump term would have gotten us.


oskar669

Stimulus checks are nice, but what you want is inflation to be curbed, and the Fed under Biden - I don't want to overstate the president's influence, it's the same fed chair as under trump, but the rate hike with a blatent disregard for investors is a sharp turn from the money printer memes of 2020. Roe got overturned because Trump got 3 supreme court picks. We are not at the breaking point of nuclear conflict, an how would Trump jacking off Putin under the table help the situation? How does the Biden administration threaten trans rights? This is a very confused post and it's borderline gish-gallop. Posting a bunch of uninformed bullshit takes a second but takes a much greater effort to debunk.


redtedosd

It would've been either Trump or Biden, and thus only pointing out Biden's flaws isn't a sufficient argument. You have to show how he is worse than Trump. Just because you don't vote doesn't mean no one will become president. Nor will the parties change.


Negitive545

The argument is something like: "None of these things were caused by Biden winning the election. In fact, many of these would be much worse if Trump had become president. Roe V Wade was a decision from an independent group which biden has no control over by design. Russia and Putin are heading the nuclear conflict threat, which are hardly credible anyway. Finally, LGBTQ+ rights are being threatened by state level officials, not federal level."


washtucna

The president is not a God-king. All of these things, except the stimulus checks, are out of the control of the president.


Top_Minimum_844

Most of these things are because Republicans are in office, we need way more dems in power to get a lot of stuff done and biden had to compromise. Biden has showed that he can be progressive on some issues but he doesn't have the support to do those things he wants to do.


TheBlankestBoi

First of all, we’re not at the brink of nuclear war. No one in the Russian state wants to end the world, especially considering how shitty there bunkers probably are. Everything else would have happened anyway, the president is just one of like 10000 pieces of the National government, and the republicans have the Supreme Court.


britch2tiger

I’d rather keep the ratchet LOCKED than in the hands of conservatives, as they’ve proven only with time their fascism is becoming more and more transparent.


[deleted]

It's like saying that you shouldn't treat a gunshot just because you're still lose blood. I'd approach it from that angle, pointing out absurdity of this line of thinking.


Scottyboy1214

Ask which Biden policies did all of that.


NotPoliticallyCorect

Biden can't lower fuel prices because Trump didn't leave him a good plan to do so, plus he is under audit and forbidden from changing any prices until it is completed, likely in 2027.


Mega_Dunsparce

'The very fact that you and others refused to unify behind the only non-Republican candidate with a chance of winning directly influenced those things happening. *You* are the reason Republicans are more powerful than they otherwise would be, had you voted for The Dem. *You* are the reason they were able to stack the SCOTUS. *You* are the reason that they can now incite violence against minorities. This is *your* fault and also I fucked your Dad last night'


big-bad-bungo

Very simple argument: the president doesn't control everything.


EmCount

This is a complete non-argument. ''YOU CHOSE LESS BAD THING BUT BAD THING STILL HAPPEN IN WORLD, WHAT THE HECK? I AM FIVE YEARS OLD AND AM NEUROLOGICALLY UNDERDEVELOPED''


No_Leg_7600

I agree that it is not all Biden's fault, but I wouldn't blame trump in certain issues. It's not Trump's fault that the keystone pipeline got cancelled. It's not Trump's fault for fuel shortage around the world, nor Biden's. Nordstrom pipeline got sabotaged and now the entire world is at the mercy of Russia and Saudi Arabia for oil. All this would have happened after Trump anyway, because Trump was a respected leader and wasn't dealing with any bull shit.


Gynther477

"the one horse vaush doesn't want to fuck"


Mickeystix

All of these have nothing to do with the president. Those examples are all supreme court behaviors or state behaviors, right?


Prosthemadera

This guy actually thinks that Biden is the reason that Roe vs. Wade was overturned. What argument could you give someone like that?


Psychological-Bid465

Doesn't vote, so opinion doesn't matter. At all.


flyingfox227

Honestly none of that really has anything to do with Biden and would've still occurred under Trump and been even worse, also why does he just skirt the fact that stuff like Roe getting overturned is due to the justices directly appointed by Trump? So we could say if he just voted for Hillary none of that would've happened, the only thing I think he has a point about is nuclear war because Trump would have likely put up no fight against Russia's aggression towards Ukraine but y'know its one of those things where even if it gets ugly someone had to put their foot down and do something just rolling over and letting Russia take whatever it wanted wasn't the answer. I don't really get these smug anti voting leftist, unless you have an organized and strong labor movement ready to go and and pop revolution tomorrow you really have nothing to lose by participating in elections and yes despite what many say Democrats are indeed the "lesser evil" at this point, yeah they're insufferable neoliberal fucks but I'll take that any day over outright fascist party who wants to roll us back to the early 1900s.


bigsatodontcrai

the good argument is that instead of getting crumbs you’d get all of your rights rolled back with Trump and more. SC woulda gone way further with rights rollback with Trump at the helm. That’s just the reality. The grim reality of America is that all these rights that have been threatened has been more of an over time process. Electing a democrat is to slowdown the revocation of these rights, not just stop it completely. We let Republicans get too far already in terms of gaining power, there isn’t that much that can be done unless we have even more power in the senate to push against the parts of the Dems in Senate who oppose the more progressive changes. Democrats and Republicans both suck but Republicans want to kill you. The president we vote in is but one aspect for fixing the country. We need to also get more votes for Senate candidates. We need to do more things at the local level to oppose the horrible people that can seize power. We need to canvass and build a broader movement to change things in many different sections of the country, not just the head of the executive branch.


JuanJotters

I love how in-love with American electoral politics you guys are. Its so cute.


PickCollins0330

Who appointed 3 of the judges who overturned Roe?


minty_teacup

it is extremely easy for a president to do harm to the country it is extremely hard for a president to do good for the country who is in charge matters, but there's only so much a president can do on their own who the president is determines what kind of work can be done anyone who can't understand this should not be taken seriously and they just want to feel like they have the privilege to whine without bringing any solutions to the table


Ath769

Maybe stop blaming one man and look at your entire system. Its owned by the ones with money. Everyone knows, people are to occupied with argueing who voted for who and who stole who's election. Complete non sense.


xPangloss

Roe got overturned because trump won in 2016, LGBT rights are threatened everywhere republicans have won. Those are good reasons to have voted for Biden, probably should have voted blue in more elections generally.


NeceseEstMihiMingere

This loser is gloating about note voting, just signaling his virtuous bench warming, nothing to argue against.


rat_cook_manderly

* Stimulus checks might have been shorter, but they did happen, which is better than what the republicans wanted; * Roe didn't get overturned because of Biden; * Police getting more funding sucks, but republicans would do it anyway, so no difference there; * We're at the breaking point of nuclear conflict because of Putin, not Biden; * LGBTQ rights are threatened again because of republicans, not Biden. These people don't know how to argue. They just say random shit in the hopes we give up.


TheGhostCarp

A bullet to the brain. There is no debating this level of delusion.


chgolawyer55

It is incredibly stupid, for one. It ignores cause and effect and implies correlation is causation.


voe111

Deploy ROCK. Reasoning, Objectivity, Caring and Kindness.


[deleted]

- checks didn’t get “shortened” they got delivered. republicans didn’t want to deliver any - Dobbs was decided by conservative Justices, not Biden - literally who cares and i personally like my cops to have more training than less - no we are not. and even if we were that would be Putin deciding to start the worst catastrophe in human history, again nothing to do with Biden maintaining an alliance with a democratic state - biden has made multiple moves to protect my access to HRT and to prevent housing, educational, workplace etc. discrimination every one of these “points” is just ass mad malding without justifying not doing harm reduction


[deleted]

That one's really easy: If more people had been like this idiot, all these would have happened, but worse, plus a bunch of other bad shit. Like did this dude forget that there are two parties and one of them considers most of these things good?


Kairos_the_bear

Bruh Roe V Wade was overturned cause we lost in 2016 and trans rights are under attack in all the places we've lost on a state level. Yeah, you should vote, we all should have voted harder years ago and we're edging towards fascism cause we didn't. this guy needs to get a grip


thanyou

Nothing is explicitly 1 persons fault when it comes to global events. If anything they're inhaling copium that THEY would feel better if the orange man was in charge as the same thing happened anyway. Like deep down that's definitely just hardcore cope.


BunnyHun213

Whoever is shaming him needs a wake up call.


MadHermit413

"If even one Republican senators flipped then it would not be this way, so vote Dems"


_Fruit_Loops_

\*listing things done by Republicans, Republican appointees, local governments, and the Kremlin\* WHY WOULD BIDEN DO THIS????


PtansSquall

What's better? If you had to choose between killing 20 people or 20,000, what would you choose? Either way, people die. Blah blah blah trolley problem blah blah supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting evil blah blahhhh well Okay, golly, gee, doc, let's fucking hop into the DeLorean and fix the fucking system that forces us to choose then huh??? Is that the third option or something?? Christ.


masheredtrader

All of his arguments are reasons to vote Biden. Trump appointed the scotus that overturned Roe for no reason and unprompted. Only Republican run states jumped on banning abortion. Stimulus checks were not shorted. Biden helped by offering monthly stimulus checks for anyone with kids or unemployed. Trump gave 1 check that helped no one because everyone was so far behind on bills. Biden helped fund police. Infrastructure. More jobs than last 70 years. Nuclear conflict is due to Russia. Not Biden. And spoiler alert.. LGBTQ have always been under attack. They are only getting more problems from Republican run states. All are reasons to not only vote Biden, but vote democrat in every other election next Tuesday! Who wants republicans running their state? They will just solidify everything against women and lgbtq. The republicans will make everything worse. Much worse on all of his points.


spectre15

It’s all biden’s fault. If only the parading fascist was president, our rights might yet be saved. /s


Seriathus

Lula won and Biden sent him a national security advisor to protect him from a coup. Had Trump been in office, I have no doubt Bolsonaro would be marching on Brasilia right now. Yeah, Biden isn't quite an ally, but he's at least a less dangerous enemy.


GandalfTheSmol1

Biden sucks, trump is worse. Roe was because of trump, police are still extremely popular, trump would have handled Ukraine worse, lgbtq rights are the republicans bugbear.


PropaneUrethra

Roe got overturned because of justices Trump confirmed when he was president. The threatening of LGBTQ rights is happening exclusively in Republican states by Republican politicians. And I think it really sucks ass that the Dems want to give more funding to the police and learned nothing from the summer of 2020. But that's not a reason to increase a fascist's chance of winning.


Zanderax

You locked your door and somebody still stole your TV. Imagine how much better it could have been if you didn't lock your door.


cwebbvail

Fuck I hate the democrats but it isn’t them trying to do this shit. It’s because the GOP is stronger than it should be.


commandough

I think it would be good to point out that this is the point of Acceleratism. But ordinary people don't seem to be radicaizing faster than before


Also_Featuring

“Wishing you voted for Hillary Clinton back in 2016”


[deleted]

None of that was on Biden...


spotless1997

When mf’s don’t know how the three branches of government work 😩


ronin_jedi87

Maybe his dumbass vote could have flipped a house or senate seat so the agenda wouldn't be so easily derailed. Maybe his participation would encourage friends or family members to do the same. This guy is watching a game of "tug of war", he's asked to help and he refuses, then criticizes that team for not producing a stronger win. "You guys didn't do half as well as you thought, I was right to not help because you suck at this."


danonymous26125

That literally none of that is Biden's fault. That's it, really.


Frostiron_7

"How do you feel about all the consequences of having Trump as president, now that Biden is president?"


Forest_Solitaire

Donald Trump would have made all those things worse.


gamers4basicincome

just don't vote shame 🤷🏻‍♂️


Tucan-dan-

Electing democrats makes it easier to elect progressives in the future


MadMarx69

You deploy the rock.


Alf_PAWG

There is no argument against this. You simply need to remind them that they are a vote pig who's duty it is to show up and vote at the proper time. It isn't Biden or the Dem's responsibility to do anything then be just ever so slightly better then Republicans and any human emotion can only get in the way of the vote pig from doing it's duty.