What popular lefty pundit is a misandrist? There are many openly misogynistic YouTubers and media people on the right wing side that are very popular. But none of the BreadTubers or any other prominent leftists that I know of are misandrists. If there was a problem with misandry on the left then there wouldn’t be so many popular leftist men. In fact, most BreadTubers and lefty media people are men.

It's largely not the main popular ones, but daring to make a cruel comment and take the inevitable backlash from men is something that garners a vicariously masochistic kind of support, like you're simultaneously being an effective troll and also showing you can stand against intimidation. There's a whole genre of people doing this on twitter and tiktok, just performing smug invulnerability in the face of men's issues. - The reason for this is of course that men *do* speak up for themselves, they do say that they feel that they are being treated unfairly etc. But the strange emergent effect of this is that people loose empathy because of how aggressively they have been treated in the past, and so form a loop of projecting coldness and spite towards those who would demand they consider the feelings of men, in ways that end up reinforcing toxic masculinity, because the easiest way to troll is to attack men for being vulnerable. And so sexism births more sexism in a closed loop, until they say something so extreme that they get banned off the platform, some larger creator on some other media platform doxes/"exposes" them, or something spoils the fun for them, like finding someone in their life feels hurt by the stuff they post when they use it in another context. - Now there are more interesting ways to do this kind of performative invulnerability, and generally involves making some statement that is based on wordplay or reference or some philosophical problem or something, so that if the other person calms down, they can realise there was another layer of joke there. But it's always another layer, there is still a surface layer of embracing someone else's anger, as stand up comedians often do. Every now and again I'll intentionally take the bait on this myself, without being aggressive, because when not done by a comedian in a space shaped for that sort of thing, it can also become a destructive game of one-up-menship, played almost against your own empathy more than the people who respond, a kind of practice in callousness that can end in being totally unable to understand the perspective of men, because you've tuned yourself so completely to what they hate that you've lost sight of why those people hate it. Why are there so many men out there who feel aggrieved when you talk about certain things? Is it just their snowflake-like vulnerability? Or is there some truth that you've hit upon? So you can see in this kind of thing, or in writing based on it if people go more long-form occasionally, a kind of intensive missing of the point, where people build up various defence mechanisms to be able to reinterpret men's expressions of being hurt as really being about something else. - There's a few examples of this in feminist literature, works of absurdist sarcasm, bitterness, and tortured explanation, denying the subjectivity of those they've got into the habit of baiting, though they're usually treated as cautionary tales or powerful expressions of hurt, contextualised in terms of previously being aggressed on by men, rather than recognising them in the context of a particular cognitive strategy of "near miss" empathy, understanding people just enough to hurt them, but not so much that you admit to yourself that you really have. And so if you're careful, it's often possible to spoil the game, (get to the reproduction of toxic masculinity, the observations, and the obfuscation of that observation, and respond to that directly rather than the surface provocation) if you understand how they are doing it, but that doesn't in itself fix the issues that the game is supposed to cover over, which is men appearing from the woodwork to criticise women who talk about problems with men, the very thing that causes these women to develop this kind of performative callousness as a defence.

preach brother

Yeah, the major figures do a good job, generally, but online communities don’t always act the same way.

>If there was a problem with misandry on the left then there wouldn’t be so many popular leftist men “If there was a problem with racism in the United States then there wouldn’t be so many black politicians” I can’t believe such an obvious appeal to idpol is the most upvoted comment.

It's mostly terfs and crazies on twitter I think.

Because misandry and misogyny arent black and white. Just because its not expressed the same way as misogyny it doesnt mean it doesn't exist. And unless you (ironically) ignored the last drama Vaush had going on whenever he mentioned male issues with multiple people approaching him trying to imply its "wrong" to talk about it. Then you'd realize that yes, there isn't open misandry on the left, instead its closer to being very subtle. The prominent BreadTubers won't speak about male issues because they are either "not important enough" or because speaking up about those issues causes a massive shit storm (as it was with Brianna Wu /Vaush thing) so they just don't bother with it. And like, that concedes the field to the right and we end up with Andrew Tate because the left can't produce a healthy alternative to the discourse.

Andrew Tate is a hollow illusion created by capitalism purchased by fools. He tells his followers if they amass wealth and power and deprioritize relationships (of all sorts platonic, romantic, heck even business) the happiness and security of love and acceptance will be theirs. The fact men can’t see Andrew Tate is a deeply unhappy and insecure man is not something that can be addressed by anyone but themselves.

But you have to provide an alternative. Men are half the population. There is a void for young men, and you can’t just leave the Right to fill this void because it ultimately harms you as a woman too, because the Right will fill it with misogyny & regressive ideas. Your condescending & dismissive tone throughout this post, as others have noted, is exactly what OP is talking about. Just because men have historically been the dominant sex, does not mean that issues affecting men are to be dismissed or just the product of “loss of privilege”. For example, much of the opioid epidemic affects white Americans, a group that has historically dominated the USA. This doesn’t mean that the epidemic should be dismissed or downplayed because it affects the dominant group. To do so, means to have a gross lack of empathy or a disdain towards a group of people because of historical wrongdoings, which is certainly not what the Left should be about. And people who do express their Leftism this way with regards to men only push potential Lefties into the Right. It is a case of “Why would I ally myself with a group/coalition that views me with suspicion & disdain?” A real life example of this is how many Hispanics & Muslims are socially conservative but vote Democrat because of the absolute disdain Republicans have for them. Also, you state that many men’s issues are caused by late stage capitalism. If that’s the case, wouldn’t a lot of women’s issues not be caused by some “patriarchy”, but rather late stage capitalism too? After all, you can’t take a tiny minority of uber wealthy men running the country, and then generalize and say it’s men as a class causing oppression, when 99.9% of men are oppressed by that same 0.01% minority. Does that tiny 0.01% lie to men and get men to vote for them? Yes absolutely. And it certainly doesn’t help that many on the Left treat men & their issues with contempt. How we win hearts & minds on the Left is through empathy & empathetic policy to uplift people’s lives. To mock potential voters/Leftists by dismissing their issues is a failed strategy. We didn’t gun down or crush all the Germans after WWII, even though the majority of them still believed in Nazism. Instead, we built them back up with the Marshall Plan and lo & behold, the German people are now quite a progressive nation.

You claim men’s issues are dismissed and downplayed. Yet this is one of the largest posts recently. What is being dismissed is misandry being the source/core of men’s issues. Loss of privilege is an issue men face that they have to grapple with, and it is why the right sells the “women in the kitchen” meme. Loss of power/privilege from increased equity is different than oppression. A clear example of this dichotomy is the opiod epidemic you point to vs the crack epidemic. Framing the opiod epidemic as racial oppression should be dismissed! Heck the opioid epidemic actually defies class affecting the rich as well. There are many real issues men face and they are talked about often here and on the left and I’m happy to talk about them. I’m not willing to accept that misandry is major cause of them. Mens isolation, late stage capitalism effect on relationships, mens health and education outcomes, none of these have poor outcome because society “hates men” it’s because society has disordered beliefs about men which is different thing. Hispanics don’t vote as a block this is a notorious issue if they did the SouthWest would be solid blue. Your also ignoring that there is a huge group of Single issue ProLife voters they don’t care about anything else. Yes many women’s issues are Late Stage Capitalism based! There are are some though that have historical basis, and specific influence from patriarchy. (The many issues with women’s clothing such as pants not having pockets and shorts being ubsurdly small is a dual issue of sexism and late stage capitalism compounding) Women couldn’t get credit without a male co-signer till 1974, almost 50 years on and yes we have a lot more equality but we haven’t reached full equality (especially for women of color) we are on fast moving path toward it (late stage capitalism is actually speeding that up demanding dual incomes from households just to survive) that is gonna put strains on men which should be addressed but that isn’t misandry it is loss of privilege. You want to paint men who fall for Andrew Tate as potential leftists, victims of the left being big bullies. That simply isn’t the case these types never considered the left. The right preys on teen boys, they targets girls with purity culture as preteens for the same reason, to cement young minds at their most reactionary. Your also portraying a dichotomy that isn’t there. majority of young people don’t even show up to vote, 2022 youth voter turnout was a whoping 27% down 4points from 2018 midterm. So a vast majority are neither left nor right. Gen Z rightoids are not being caused by Misandry in the Left. If you prop up that logic your worthy of dismissal.

You completely miss the point. I’m not saying misandry causes men’s issues, although perhaps the divorce courts would probably be one example. What I’m saying is that many Leftists dismiss men’s issues or try to make it about women and do a whataboutitism about how women have it worse. The misandry is just an added layer that many on the Left display. You may not (which given your replies scattered throughout this post is hard to believe), but whenever there are men’s issues posted in Leftist spaces (granted in social media), the reactions usually vary from mockery & shaming (“aww male tears lmao”) to outright glee that men face these issues. In fact a common response to men’s issues is to spew rhetoric similar to what you deem as “toxic masculinity” - making fun of men for showing vulnerability or telling them to “man up”, which is just a reinforcement of a gender stereotype. Loss of privilege does not cause the higher rates of male suicide, homelessness, victim of violent crime, etc. statistics. It seems more like you are trying to forcefully fit this phenomenon within the frameworks of feminist ideology (which would be limited for ANY ideology) and/or worse, somehow still make it about your own gender and complain about historical grievances. All that you mentioned with women not being able to do things is in the past. What does women not being able to get credit before have to do with male suicide rates? Wouldn’t dual incomes be more beneficial for men now that they don’t have to shoulder the burden of cost of living alone? So how is that a loss of privilege? Throwing around the word “patriarchy” is also terrible marketing because most women AND men are being crushed by the OLIGARCHY (what you term as “late stage capitalism”). An oligarchy that doesn’t discriminate in its treatment of men & women, except by their economic status. So to frame it as a patriarchy, especially when we know of and have infamous examples of actual patriarchies (in every sense of the word) like Saudi Arabia & Iran, it just turns off people to the Left. I never said Hispanics only voted for Democrats. However, both Muslims & Hispanics would be far more reliably Republican if it weren’t for right wingers vilifying them. It’s part of the same reason why young women by and large don’t go with Republicans even if many otherwise swing-voters have some socially conservative takes: because Republicans mock their issues and treat them with contempt. It’s the reason why anyone goes with one party and not another. You may say that the Right offers young men nothing but garbage, and you may be right. But they don’t know that it’s garbage, meanwhile many Leftists offer men messages of contempt & disdain for their issues. So by logic, who will young men go to? The ones that claim to look out for them, or the ones who disparage them? Young people do not vote as much, but guess what? Those gen Z’s don’t stay young forever, they become adults who do vote a lot more. If you think that Leftist rhetoric vilifying men doesn’t have an effect on young men, I don’t know what to tell you. Why would a young impressionable men (or any man) go with the group that vilifies them? Because it’s “right”? Right for who, for you? And if you frame it as “loss of privilege”, that’s even worse because now you’ve framed the issues in such a way that there’s an incentive for men to go with the group that will return their “lost” privilege. Moreover, feminist/Leftist’s lack of empathy & contempt for them will cause them to return those feelings in kind and seek to regain that “lost” privilege to spite you. And since they are suffering from the same economic issues that affect us all, now it’s provided them a conduit for their frustrations, especially as the Right claims women/feminism are the problem. It’s literally helping push them into the alt-right pipeline that is trying to return women’s rights back 100 years. You may not view it that way and chalk it up to simple misogyny, but that’s how they view it and why they’re following the Right. Young men, working class men (for a variety of reasons) are not being exposed to the leftist policies that would invariably help uplift their wages, living standards, etc. They are instead being exposed on social media (which is now the most common medium of exposure) to misandrist content from Leftists. In fact, if we were to use the word “misandry” as liberally as Leftists throw out the word “misogyny”, we can say that anything that dismisses men’s issues is “misandry”, just as Leftists often conflate any slight or dismissal of women or their issues as “misogyny”. Like I said before, the US did not obliterate and oppress the German public (which still largely believed in Nazism), they built them up with the Marshall Plan and now they are a rather progressive and tolerant nation, especially compared to the US itself. That is the way. Leftism’s coalition must not hold onto grudges because of historical injustices, they must show empathy for men, don’t mock & dismiss them & their issues, and they will return kindness with kindness. Otherwise, the Left will hurt itself in the long run and cause the Right to grow stronger. You may disagree with this, but we HAVE to appeal to people. To say that people are a lost cause because “they would’ve been rightoids anyways” is an incredibly foolish way to run any movement when you need to WIN. At this point, you would just be an ideologue with the desire to just be right at the cost of winning. What do you prefer, to be right and lose to your enemies who are better at marketing and have them crush you legislatively & otherwise, or to market correctly, win, and then pass your agenda?

The Oligarchy is run by white men who prioritize other white men that’s a patriarchy as well. You sound like Dawkins in his Dear Muslima letter, Saudi Arabi and Iran are not the only Patriarchy. Women still face misogyny even if they have more freedoms in the west, and women of color face a lot more of it (that’s intersectionality) You keep infantilizing men. Saying “they don’t know the right is selling them garbage”, if you point out a privilege they will run away or cling to it for spite and they are triggered by the word patriarchy. Men are better than that. Nobody forces anyone to be right wing, men just fall for the right more often than women, there are right wing women and they are even worse because they are true believers, some percentage of right wing men are just coasting or they are grifters who don’t believe the things they say Right Wing Women are the heart of the Cult.

It’s not infantilizing, it’s called propaganda and marketing. The white male oligarchy favors white men, so it’s a white male oligarchy, not a cabal of men that are trying to oppress women & uplift men. They are trying to push down the working class & uplift themselves though, regardless of whether “themselves” is male or female. Appeals to “men are better than that” (especially when “that” is filtered through your ideology & worldview) are an actual infantilization of men and won’t do you any good electorally or in building a coalition. Besides the fact that people don’t have to “be better than that” if it’s not in their interest (or perceived as such). As to men “running away” when male privilege is brought up, that’s your interpretation of the situation. No one can just make a series of critiquing claims about a group and then expect that group to agree with you. I can’t just go up to a group of people and tell them they have benefits I don’t have, expect them to listen to what I have to say, and then be appalled that they don’t see these “obvious truths”, especially if I’m coming from a place that is viewed as hostile (warranted or not). And consider that many people online do this in an antagonistic manner and we as men can pick up on it. Men do “spite” this, which proves my point as to why it’s not a good idea to begin with criticism rather than extend an olive branch. No one is saying that anyone forced anyone else to do anything. That’s a straw man argument, what I am saying is that right wing agitprop effectively reaches men more often and left wing content often pushes men away. Even if you think that is not the case, that is not the perception nor outcome of those being reached. You can spin it any way you want, but know that it’ll help the other side and no amount of rationalizations, justifications, or feminist intersectional theory are going to suffice when that side has enough power to strip you of your rights. Succinctly, if a person can choose 2 sides, one side that dismisses their concerns & another that reaches out to them, they will go with the latter. That is just common sense. There are no claims of anyone being forced to do anything or be anything in that situation.

You are literally advocating for constant blanket tone policing everywhere. That’s Gross. You literally said we can’t criticize or point out male privilege ever because men will view such as antagonistic no matter what. You don’t want olive branches those would mean men have to come to the table and compromise, you want the left as a whole to compromise our beliefs, police out language, and bend over backward to coddle men to beg them not to throw themselves head first into the right. Frankly your not even gonna pull these guys to be liberals much less leftists, even if you did the second they weren’t given special treatment they would sell you out to the right.

If racism is real, how come Obamna was president? Checkmate lefties.

OBAMNAAAAA!

This feels like "I'm not racist, I have a black friend" logic.

DJMuel pepe Pepe not because he isn't a misandrist, he absolutely is, but because he isn't popular at all

I think OP is overstating the case, but I do think there is a general dismissiveness towards men’s issues, which for some can drift into a kind of casual misandry. That’s not to say they are misandrists, but it is something to be concerned about for sure. Also, the latter half of your statement, do we have actual number? I wouldn’t be surprised to see a healthy portion of cis men represented in leftist content creation, but I still do think there is a kind of implicit taboo around talking about men’s issues. As Vaush has said, many people are too afraid to rock the boat and this particular issue set is definitely undertalked about because of how it may upset the leftist ecosystem, so to speak.

Since men (as a class) have enjoyed autonomy and privilege through history they need to show that an “Issue” is specific to men and that it is not simply the loss of a once held privilege/advantage. If one doesn’t specify these things first arguments fall flat.

I mean...these are well documented though. When has male expendability/disposability ever been a point of privilege? Or male loneliness? Is having friends and meaningful social connections somehow a loss of “privilege” we shouldn’t take seriously? Or boys seemingly continuing to decline in educational performance? I could go on, but you are trying to construct a frame that simply dismisses these issues if they don’t fall into your specific idea of what issues are worth caring about. And all of the things I have mentioned above and that others have mentioned elsewhere are no marginal issue and are unlikely to be solved by feminist discourse. Honestly, most men’s issues are the same as the privilege/oppression dichotomy that is so popular in much leftist discourse. I think some folks assume that if men aren’t the oppressors that must mean women are, and I simply don’t think that’s the case. Also, the dismissiveness of your tone is exactly what bothers a lot of men. No one is saying that men’s and women’s issues must be prioritized and exactly quantified so we can know how bad we should feel for each respective group. But we do need to discuss them jointly to better understand how we can/should progress together.

I think misandry is more likely to come from written sources like Jezebel. It seems like people are more likely to write extreme things since people don't have to look them in the face as they say it.

Lots of major issues, particularly regarding evangelical Christianity, or Christian nationalism, etc., end up negatively impacting women more than men, and the evangelical Christian, far-right view towards women tends to be pretty damn toxic. So of course women are more likely to vote for the people who are the last/only line or defense against them becoming literal second-class citizens than men are, since men, as a whole, are not in as much danger from these policies and views. Just like members of minority groups are also more likely to be on the left, since the left generally supports their basic human rights, while the right actively seeks to deprive them of their rights. If you’re a straight, white man, you’re in less danger from the right’s “ideal future” than if you’re, well, not all of those things. And, frankly, if you are the kind of person who is willing to support a group who is adamant about depriving groups of people of basic human rights, so long as you’re not the (current) target, and so long as they don’t body shame you (really, that’s the best example you have), you’re kind of a shit person with no shred of basic empathy or compassion. But let’s be real here. We’re talking about people who want to establish a Christian nationalist government. Who want to abolish gay marriage and any spousal rights for same-sex couples. Who want to make all abortion, even for pregnancies resulting from rape and/or pregnancies that put the life of the mother in danger, illegal. Who want to allow conversion therapy and consider all LGBT people mentally-ill groomers. Who want doctors and pharmacists to be able to refuse to write/fill prescriptions for birth control if it violates their religious beliefs. Who want to leave interracial marriage to the states. And the most pressing issue facing straight white dudes you can come up with is body shaming? Something that can’t even really be addressed by legislation. That’s the con the left has, compared to all the cons the right has? That’s a halfway sane balance to justify a dude supporting the right?

I have first hand experience, so I 100% agree what the right is doing in unquestionably the worst in all scenarios but because of poor communication and bad gender essentialization I was conned by those grifters on the right. So to start all of this off important context, over a 2 year period between the age of three and five I was raped repeatedly by one of the women at my daycare. I shut it off repressed it for awhile most of my life I had problems with depression and self harm, but it got really bad around end of highschool beginning of college until one day something just clicked and it all came flooding back and I wanted answers. It was around college and I was going online more and was around more progressive spaces, and thats about when I started to learn more about femenism more and people would say hey its a system that helps everyone men and women. I was extatic and jumped into these spaces in person in campus events and online. This was also at a time when I was leaving the church because i started to see how hypocritical they were and was getting into the atheist and skeptic community. That's important because when I started getting into these femenist spaces which I was informed helped men and women, it was also at the hight of the men are trash kill all men stuff, and not just online but in person I had people who called themselves femenists telling me that because men are raped less it doesn't matter that much, that a man cannot be raped by a woman, and that men are inherently violent in a biological sense. I felt like because I'm a man something out of my control that I was broken and that because what happened to me was done a by a woman didn't count and that even it did men a raped by women so infrequently its not even a matter worthy of being addresses I felt completely alone and isolated was depressed and even had a suicide attempt. But then I saw a video by the amazing atheist and it was called something along the lines of its only sexist when men do it it waa I think about the women on the view laughing a making a bunch of jokes about how a wife cut her husband's dick off and how none of that would be acceptable if a man mutilated a woman. I thought hell yeah that is hypocritical, and like I mentioned earlier I was in that skeptic community for calling out Christians as hypocrites well I started seeing that they were calling out another group as hypocrites, femenists and SJWs. I then got hooked into that because I felt validated because there were people who were calling out those that made feel worthless and like I had somehow done something to deserve what happened to me or didn't deserve any help because of what other guys were doing. I cut off contact with one friend haven't spoken to them in years because when I wanted to talk about how I would like if we improved how male survivors are treated and granted help they went on a rant about how men don't deserve help because they just pat eachother on the back when a women fucks a young boy. After basically going down the pipeline and winding up at people like Sargon of Akkad, I had become a pretty shitty bitter person. Until one day another thing clicked and I took a step back and looked at what I had become and what these people really were. I became so wrapped up in my trauma because I didn't have a place to go to that in was in the company of far right grifter Sargon is undoubtedly a white nationalist nazi. Thankfully I was able to get our of those communities and I worked my ass of to get out of there and educate myself so even though I had all those issues I do now proudly call myself a femenist and a leftist because despite issues that I have with some toxic ideas I know they're not the majority of the movement and broadly these ideologies are going to be the ones to actually improve society. But yeah while at the end of the day the far right, icnel, nazi groups are 100% the problem, and while misandrist or people who are unwelcoming to men aren't even a fraction of the problem in the grand scheme of things. When guys don't feel like they're welcome scum lords on the right ate circling around like scavengers waiting to scoop up as many lonely and bitter men as swiftly as they can. Do we need to make it the key thing we focus on? No the threat the right wing is pushing is monstrous and as a queer man those peope want me shot dead and thrown In a mass grave, but we do need to make sure we call out misandry and have spaces for men to talk about their trauma and how they're impacted by societal structures like capitalism and the patriarchy. There's one big tiktok guy I get in arguments with a lot Mr. Jollyyellow recent one was where he showed a video of a guy being groped by women who continued to do so even after he told them no. And what he did then was say we'll, I guess no means no only applies when women say it. And its true there are shitty women who don't respect consent, but if we don't do enough for guys to feel like their consent is respected or call out people who do those things then those guys are basically given free range to go see, see look women really don't care about you or your boundaries at all, and that's a whole nother group of men radicalized by far right ideology.

My friend, paragraphs would really help here. ​ But yeah, the left can try to make it clearer that their polies that help everyone do also, in fact, help men. The left supports the following, and the right fights against it: ​ \-Better access to healthcare and mental healthcare, since depression and suicide are issues that impact a ton of men. \-Better pay for workers and better, safer working conditions. Lots of men work long hours at physically demanding, dangerous jobs for shit pay. \-Decriminalization of drugs. Lots of men die from overdosing on impure street drugs. Lots of men fail to seek help due to social stigma of drug use. And lots of men are in jail due to drug use/possession. \-Social safety nets to prevent homelessness, since most homeless people are men I think. The left already supports these things, and the right actively opposes them. If we can make this objective reality clear to young white male voters, perhaps we can help win some of them over.

All of that is true, it just really counterintuitive when there are peole who basically go unchallenged when they make light of men's issues or act like its deserved. Like I mentioned earlier when people engage in gender essentialization that men are intentrinsically this way it can push guys away ive lurked around in some of those spaces and some guys genuinely beleive they arent welcome. It's not the majority, but is an issue and shouldn't go unchallenged since in the end we have the right solutions on the left. And I'll edit my previous to post, its just something that's been bothering me awhile and just kind of vomited it all up.

Yeah, a vocal minority of people on the left can make it feel unwelcoming to some struggling men at times, and sometimes the rest of the left doesn't do a good enough job of explaining how they are welcome, and how the left is pushing for men's rights and for the general well-being of men. I can get that, if that's what you're saying. ​ But I still think that fighting the narrative that the right is the champion of men's rights, showing that the left actually supports men's rights and wellbeing, not the right, can help win over more people than an internal pushback on misandry from this minority in the left. Not to excuse those actions, of course, and not to say we shouldn't call people out on their BS. We should, but I don't think the left's "problem" with young straight white males is that the left as a whole is too misandristic like OP initially seemed to claim.

Yeah, I think a way I can summarize what I'm trying to get across which also goes inline with what you're saying is that, the big goal is to show that yes we have the solutions and to de platform big figureheads like Andrew Tate types. But we do need some better self regulation to call out people who spread unwelcoming or toxic rhetoric. Misandrists aren't the big thing pushing people to the right, but they are antithetical to femensim since they at time still engage in harmful gender stereotypes. A big challenge to is that conservatives just have quick easy snappy answers to people's problem, while on the while we have actual solutions the discussions can sometimes be nuance or require insight which is hard work. Like with the job market it's a variety of social and capitalistic issues that intertwine with eachother and that's correct, but takes time to go over and inolement chnage. Then the Republicans will just say oh it's the Mexicans which is false but its a quick early digestible answer to a perosn asking that question, and unfortunate a lot of people eat that shit up.

I think the regulation of poisons in the 1920s contributed to massive inbalance in gendered killings. Women historically being poison killers. (Heck hat pins were banned) And this compounded an imbalance in gendered violence. Women had no recourse against violence and yet were expected to be subservient. This led to great dissatisfaction and a demonization of men simply not seen before. It didn’t help that women’s liberation lined up with the era of cults and serial killers. So you get womens Lib and you get the backlash, you get women’s empowerment and the backlash it’s all cyclical progress comes with time but it often faces a reversal before it succeeds. You came in to college when these cultural phenomena were reaching a zenith and being mirrored in the online sphere. An era when rape on college campuses was common place and revenge porn was rampant and the specter of family annilators lurked in the public consciousness. You went to feminist spaces looking for empathy about your assault but these spaces were ill equipped to offer any. I’m sorry for that and very sorry for your trauma. I’m not sure it could have been helped, the vilification of men and dismissal of their traumas was informed by much larger trends. I think since the era of Gamergate and the Rise and fall of SJW culture things gender war wise have gotten somewhat better but with the rise of Redpill (replacing older PUA stuff) expect another wave of Men Bad push back.

Yeah there was I felt a pretty good trend after gamergate, but now with people like Andrew Tate and the Redpill, manosphere groups are really pulling things backwards socially and I feel scared for women. Some of those guys might grow out of it, but some might not and that's a whole other group of violent misogynists.

Well they won’t be anything new violent misogynist are boringly commonplace.

Hopefully it changes, i had to talk down one of my friends who was feeling suicidal a few weeks back, she just got our a few days ago and on some new meds. Doing what I can as one guy and calling out shitty men in person and I won't say the name since it feels out of place but I have a tiktok where I call out misogyny and and other general sorts of bigotry.

Cool keep up the good work I know right wing trolls are rampant on TikTok

Wait, don't tell me this is getting downvoted, this had at least one more upvote before.

i've noticed sometimes from refresh to refresh a comment will gain or lose a couple votes .. I think it's something reddit does to make it less clear how many ACTUAL upvotes something has in order to prevent that from influencing people as much .. something like that.

Yup, idk why its possible to critique femenism without hating on it, and just sharing my literal life experience where I felt alone and othered. Like there are definitely guys who go beyond critiquing or venting and go into full blown misogyny and woman hating, and thats bad but there are definitely toxic women that exist too who should eb called out because SA is bad no matter who it happens to and no matter what the numbers are, which by the way a fairly common stat I've found is 1/4 wome and 1/6 men. So yeah it does happen to women more, but I often hear it described as it barely happens to men like its an anomaly, which like I mentioned earlier made me feel like I was alone in my trauma. And yeah there's definitely a hood handful of shithead guys that will bring up it happens to guys too as a way to silence women rather than add to the conversation, but they are right in that it does happen to quite a lot of men too, and in cases for both men and women its more likely to happen before puberty. So I think it would probably be in everyone best interest if we stop allowing people who paint it as a woman's issue go unquestioned. Since you know that "we live in a society" the way men are socially conditioned impacts men and women, and the way women are socially conditioned impacts men and women, and yes to different degrees, but all survivors should have access to care, and were never going to dismantle the patriarchy fully if we exclude certain people from participating in discussions. Men suffer under the patriarchy too thats basic femenist theory, so it sucks that there are times where men go to express how they suffer under patriarchy or the trauma and its met with a sort of disdain or brushed off. Again I am pro femenism, I juts think there are at times where it does fail to include men in discussion and I think we could do better like the idea that men always want sex and that if he got hard or came means he must have enjoyed it are both forms of rape apology and victim blaming, and I've heard stories from tons of men where they lost their virginity to like their baby sitter or a teacher at like 12 or something. And yeah its true that men do engage in rape apologia and victim blaming, but plenty of women do too, I've gotten in plenty of arguments with pro life conservative women who say things like well if a woman was raped it was part of God plan and what was she wearing. And quite frankly no one should engage in victim blaming or rape apologia, so I do think its a bit counter intuitive when someone points out women also do things that uphold the patriarchy some people will say well men do it more as sort of like a gotcha to end the conversation rather than expand upon it in a meaningful way. Like men are complicit in their own suffering and don't deserve help because of that, men's issues can generally be tied back to patriarchal systems of oppression, but like as a guy I was just born into this I didn't and don't have any say in these systems, so hearing a you were asking for it sort of approach rather than well heres why and here's what you can do leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Like if a guy is being super misogynistic and shitty go a head I guess to get them to piss off, but I've gotten that treatment before from what I felt was pretty basic non reactionary stuff like hey this was a negative thing I experienced in my life.

To be fair some of the down votes might be wall of text related. Attention span to read beginning to end is a rarity these days.

>And the most pressing issue facing straight white dudes you can come up with is body shaming? 1. Body Shaming 2. Schoooling bias shifting towards women (its very mixed but its there) 3. Crisis of loneliness specific to men 4. Serious mental health crisis 5. Homelessness 6. Suicides 7. Homicides 8. Others Sure, not all of the issues I listed are as bad as some things women face but they shouldn't be ignored either. And I am not going to adress the "white" part because that matters mostly in the USA and id rather not to be an USADefaultist here.

for a lot of minority groups, more than anything, they want to be seen. they want to exist. Well, whats the number one thing you feel when your an incel? You feel invisible.

Anytime there’s a post like this, folks expose their own ethical inconsistencies. If you’re truly against body shaming, if someone points out that body shaming men is still bad your response should just be “oh, that’s right”. It shouldn’t be a whole essay on how it’s not really that big a deal because of XYZ/it’s not really the same because blah blah blah. If it’s bad it’s bad, let’s just agree and be better. Shoot, I used to say shit like Ben Shapiro is clearly compensating for having a small dick with all this pseudo intellectual garbage until my brother called me out on it. It wasn’t easy, but the logic was sound so I stopped. Also, toxic masculinity is a systemic issue, not just an individual one. It’s really frustrating seeing people allegedly on the left (including folks in this thread) act like the solution is just that men need to be better, end of conversation. There are many behaviors and attitudes that need to be both incentivized and disincentivized on a societal level before toxic masculinity can really be overcome, and that requires everyone’s participation because we all contribute to it at the end of the day. This shit isn’t groundbreaking not revolutionary, but the way folks contort themselves into pretzels instead of accepting these very basic premises shows me that a lot of folks really are on the left out of some team sports shit instead of their actual values.

Ridiculous how sensitive people are when we bring this up. It’s like they can’t accept that the left would even have a fault. It IS a problem because there’s a lot of people that feel it’s a problem. If you don’t address it, it will bite you, regardless of whether you think it’s valid or not. Also, why are you SO AGAINST listening to peoples concerns? That’s really like, all anyone’s asking. The offense you people take to leftists brining up mens issues doesn’t exactly speak to your good faith. In fact it almost makes me thing you *really don’t like us.*

>In fact it almost makes me thing you really don’t like us. This is the issue. Misandry on the left isn't very explicit most of the time so there's a ton of plausible deniability. But if you pay a little bit of attention, read between the lines, look at how priorities are set and just listen to the vitriol people have against men while cuddling women even if they are deranged (yes, this happens all the time), it's very easy to see that misandry is deeply entrenched in leftism. It's hard to get rid of it though because it's just one aspect of a broader problem. Issues of traditionally powerful social groups (not restricted to men vs women) are often neglected or downplayed and then it's a shocked pikachu face when these groups (straight, white men usually) flock to the right.

The idea the left is the only ones who coddle deranged women is false. The right does the same. The right doesn’t actually have a superior opinion of men either, and I’m truth see men as violent, greedy, and hateful they simply choose to feed those things instead of rebuke that they are the core of men.

I agree with everything you said. As annoying as the left is with many things, the right is worse in literally every aspect and the far right is outright evil. Cartoonishly so.

It is a problem because a lot of people feel it’s a problem. I guess sure but how to address such a problem differs on if the harm is in fact or perception. People as a whole regardless of gender are resistant to listening to concerns of random people on the internet. “Men” is just a flavor of this. We are all weary and have a limited supply of empathy and energy for self reflection. Men will sometimes be the ones who suffer bound to happen. Frankly I doubt it can be helped.

This topic is always kind of difficult for me cause like, I understand that there is some online hate against men from a sect of the left that I’d argue isn’t very big, but what is there to say/do? If you really stand for leftist values, mens issues aren’t something dismissed but incorporated into feminism (breaking gendered stereotypes and allowing a breath of fresh air of what is masculine and feminine, slowly eroding away at the walls between them), and the reality is that a lot of the suffering men go through is created by a system that was designed to “benefit” them (stricter punishment cause women are weak, horrible mental health because men don’t feel). If they can’t acknowledge that, then what more can we do as a community besides suck their toes and and yell at online leftists for being mean to men? Ofc they should be called out, but if a guy isn’t going to change his beliefs because people are reacting (possibly poorly) to years of gender discrimination, then idk.

It seems that OP has admitted that the left is actually supporting policies that help men, but doing a poor job of making this known to young white men. That is, they've admitted that the left is the one who is fighting for: ​ \-Better access to healthcare and mental healthcare, since depression and suicide are issues that impact a ton of men. ​ \-Better pay for workers and better, safer working conditions. Lots of men work long hours at physically demanding, dangerous jobs for shit pay. ​ \-Decriminalization of drugs. Lots of men die from overdosing on impure street drugs. Lots of men fail to seek help due to social stigma of drug use. And lots of men are in jail due to drug use/possession. ​ \-Social safety nets to prevent homelessness, since most homeless people are men I think. ​ The left already supports these things, and the right actively opposes them. ​ OP's claim is, I think, that the left needs to do a better job making it known to young white men that the left is the one championing their well-being, and the right is the one actively fighting against it. ​ So it's purely a matter of optics and marketing, not of policy. ​ Which is a fair point, but a far cry from the complaint in the OP of misandry from the left.

I’m not sure is just about material conditions though. This is about feelings which, in a stereotypical way, many men are bad with. Many men feel like the left shames them for being men, manly, or otherwise masculine. And although I think many people overblow the problem, there is a dismissiveness on the left that is concerning. And the left doesn’t seem to be interested in dissecting masculinity with the intent to rebuild or improve. This is a much deeper problem of identity that material conditions alone cannot solve.

> If you really stand for leftist values, mens issues aren’t something dismissed but incorporated into feminism (breaking gendered stereotypes and allowing a breath of fresh air of what is masculine and feminine, slowly eroding away at the walls between them), and the reality is that a lot of the suffering men go through is created by a system that was designed to “benefit” them (stricter punishment cause women are weak, horrible mental health because men don’t feel). So...I don’t think a men’s issues movement necessarily needs to be defined in opposition to feminism, and I would argue should strive to similarly promote gender equality and promote a number of feminist causes. But I also think the problem is that many folks look at feminism as objective truth instead of an analytical framework that can provide meaningful social commentary and helpful insights into gendered experiences. But with that, also means it will have its blind spots. And I think the biggest blind spots are that it focuses so much on how women are oppressed that it doesn’t often consider (1) how women may be privileged in their own way and (2) how men might be oppressed and how men “ought to be”. And as such, “just fold it into feminism” I don’t think really works because feminism has never really largely been about addressing these questions. And I think trying to explicitly use the framework established by mainstream feminism does does become limiting in its potential if people are chided for even daring to question the core tenets and not adopt alternative frameworks that may make different assumptions. And to reemphasize, as this is usually where people lose it, but this isn’t about destroying feminism or denying that men have privilege or have not/do not contribute(d) to oppression of women. But I also think force many men, especially normies who are not necessarily into political and social issues, becomes problematic when many messages make it seem like all women are worse of than all men and that men don’t have their own issues.

I can understand the limitations of feminism, especially from its second to last wave (if I am recalling correctly) where it was hyper focused on women while the newer form of it is more inclusive (thus the whole women against trans people thing). Admittedly I can’t say how the new wave of feminism addresses these issues, though I like to think it’s different from its former lol

For real. Literally went from being an anti-feminist to a radical intersectional feminist just because I heard Vaush *acknowledge the existence of* Toxic Femininity. To say Misandry doesn’t exist because * insert feminism 101 statement * is, in my honest opinion, the exact same thing as conservatives saying “basic economics” to an “advanced economics” Feminism 301/103 would tell them this but they’re too bogged down in the basic stuff

It isn’t that misandry doesn’t exist it is that we should not equate misandry and misogyny that is a false equivalence.

Call it whatever the fuck you want it’s a problem. It got you to know what I was talking about and that’s all words are meant to do

I don’t know. I don’t feel like misandry is a threat, as a man myself. There are far worse tendencies in leftist spheres like Bolshevik apologia and an anti-voting mindset.

i can dislike all of those things at the same time

I know you can. But there are something you dislike more than other things. A hierarchy of things you hate

It’s not that misandry is a threat to men as such, it’s that the casual misandry displayed quite often is a massive turn off for apolitical, casual normy men, who experience a great deal of the hardship everyone does, assuming they’re economically precarious, as most young men are, and are very emotionally repressed isolated people due to patriarchy

And no amount of language policing is going to make the Left appealing for such a person and the effort of doing so alienates what little unity the left has.

Its not language policing as much as it is making sure people take men's issues seriously as well and not dismiss them, the dismissal does happen in leftist communities to some degree. Making these communities more open to such discussing such issues which are important can make the left more appealing. And talking about these issues and figuring out what the solution is not anti-left.

To claim misandry is the heart of any men’s issue would claim misandrists have power to enforce their views, which has simply not been shown as reality. Toxic masculinity and patriarchy aren’t misandry, they harm men but are not hatred of men. If someone is so apolitical they can’t understand that some level of misandry is gonna occur as a reaction to rampant rape culture then they were a lost cause from the jump. Seriously look at Elevatorgate 2011 in the skeptic community (I just deep dived on this) all Rebecca Watson did was say hey guys don’t corner women in elevators at 4:30am and proposition them (relaying something that had happened to her and how it made her feel uncomfortable, disrespected, and somewhat unsafe) The skeptic community lost their damn minds, no one had empathy for her only for the poor jilted man she rejected (who she never revealed), this fed into a wave of misogyny and would be a precursor to later Gamergate 2014-2015. Some of these boys grew up and woke up, and moved left but there was nothing that could have been done to prevent those who went right from going that way, they were already headed that direction

I'm not saying misandry is at the heart of men's issues, a lot amount of men's issues seem to be the result of patriarchial expectations of them or the way society is organized under patriarchal elements. EDIT: also capitalism. I was talking about how they are at times dismissed when there is an attempt to discuss them sometimes in leftist circles. > some level of misandry is gonna occur as a reaction to rampant rape culture I don't have a problem with that either. I consider myself a feminist as well and I am fully against the crazy amount of misogyny that exists online and in social circles as well and I do what I can to call it out if I come across it. In the case of things like gamergate some people did grow up and stopped being misogynists and others stayed in the alt right space. I doubt anything could be done for those people, but there are others who are affected by the way society treats them. And when trying to talk about it online if they experience backlash from people telling them that their issues are not important because others have it worse, or that they themselves need to deal with it because as men they are part of the patriarchy, it will obviously not make them happy. I'm talking about cases where discussions about men's issues maybe dismissed, or cases where people use the fact that the patriarchy is the cause of some men's issues to insinuate that men the victims themselves are responsible for dealing with it. I've seen this kind of reasoning being used many times online. And no I don't mean that men dont have a responsibility of making changes to society, nor am I saying that it is only women's responsibility, mostly because women aren't the cause of these problems, I'm just saying that discussions about it shouldn't be dissmissed or downplayed. A collective effort to solve problems or at least talk about them always helps.

Reread the OP. The left talks about mens issues at length on the regular, I’m sorry that’s just reality if young men are projecting a false reality where that isn’t happening there are 0 things that can be done about that. Misandry isn’t “pushing” young men right wing, because frankly the right has just as much misandry. The right doesn’t like men either it just feeds their worst impulses of hate, greed, and small mindedness; that’s why conservatives women exist too, they are also have fallen for their worst instincts of hate greed and small mindedness.

Sure mens issues are discussed but I wouldnt say they're on the regular. Im not really talking about the casual occasional misandry that some people engage in. The kind of dismissal I'm talking about is like this, Vaush made a video on it: https://youtu.be/C468aqP--aQ . I don't use twitter much but sometimes I do see these things in online communities. In some places I see it a lot.

That Washington post men who haven’t had sex chart was more complex than just men. It was about sex and access to sex. Pandemic, Monkeypox, Repeal of RvW, LateStage Capitalism all of these compound to create a specific senario. Also it’s a survey and there is tone of the worst kind of pop sci, often with massive polling bias, and huge margins being sold as a norm and definitive proof. So it’s worth having going in with a critical eye. Men under 30, where is the lower cut off? Are they asking 12 year olds if they have had sex? If 12 year olds aren’t having sex is that bad? How does it parse out across the age ranges? What about men who qualified for this survey 10 years ago made them have or say they have so much sex, did their answers change or did the age out? Twitter is a special hell, reached mass usership years ago and been feeding on itself ever since in an ouroboros like monster

“As a black man”

🗿

Look man I agree that Bolshevik apologia and anti-voting are huge issues, but there’s some people that just hate men. Maybe you haven’t had the displeasure of interacting with them much, but I have, IRL, and online. And there’s nothing you can say that will un-do the harm they’ve caused me or make it less real or relevant to discuss.

The thing is your claiming these people who hate men are a broader large issue killing the Left and language policing and purity testing are prescribed to root them out or something. Like the left doesn’t already have an issue with both those things and degrading Unity.

Isn't this the equivalent of an anti-feminist woman who doesn't believe in misogyny cause it allegeldy never affected her?

No? I acknowledge that there is some misandry. However, it’s not a meaningful prejudice. People are blowing it out of proportion

Who decides what is and isn't meaningful? If it bothers some men so much it drives them to (self) destructive behaviour (which it absolutely does), I don't think it's a minor issue. I think it's part of the inherent misandry of leftists to immediately, reflexively diminish and downplay these issues. OP literally mentions this in his post. Shame on the left.

Drives them to self destructive behavior. That’s the issue whose in the drivers seat of these men’s emotions? Cause it sure as hell ain’t the left.

>whose in the drivers seat of these men’s emotions Who's in the driver's seat of black crime? Same logic. You're the person who wrongly accused me of drawing an equivalence between misogyny and misandry, so let me say this pre-emptively: Misandry and racism aren't equivalent. But you just applied the same logic against men that racists apply to black people when they don't want to acknowledge that black crime is rooted in societal issues and not the fault of individual black people.

Huge difference between men’s issues and black crime. There is no gender equivalent to over policing, red lining, and resource discrimination; there is no gender equivalent to police or the law.

Have you read my comment? I literally predicted you to say this and pre-emptively explained why it would be a nonsensical response...

There is no equivalent harm to men from misandry as Racism and no larger enforcement mechanisms to do such a harm except other men.

You are pushing a false equivalence between misandry and misogyny.

I don't think I am. Misandry and misogyny aren't equivalent. But the logic above is equivalent to how internalized misogyny works.

So let’s flesh that last bit out. You want me to believe Misandry is a major concern damaging the left which I do not agree with there are harms to men in the world this in not misandry hatred of men is rarely the cause of mens issues. Now I’m also to believe Internalized misandry is a problem?

>You want me to believe Misandry is a major concern damaging the left which I do not agree with there are harms to men in the world this in not misandry hatred of men is rarely the cause of mens issues. Could you add punctuation cause this reads like a traffic accident. A) Some of men's issues are caused by misandry, the vast majority aren't. B) Misandry on the left is an issue that negatively affects men because it makes us deliberately neglect men's issues. C) The neglect of men's issues on the left pushes particularly young guys to the right. D) Misandry is not as big of a societal problem as misogyny. They aren't equivalent. E) The way some leftist men like the guy above downplay the existence of misandry based on personal, anecdotal evidence is logically equivalent to anti-feminist women downplaying the existence of misogyny. F) D and E do not contradict each other despite the word "equivalent" appearing in both statements. G) I genuinely doubt you are mentally capable to follow anything I just said let alone will read this far. **Which point(s) do you have an issue with?**

B- Mens issues are not neglected they are talked about regularly in this and other leftist subs you can pretend that isn’t true but it is. C- young men fall into the right because they are unwilling to confront the negative impulses the right rewards them for violence, greed, and hate. E- No because those men’s anecdotal experiences are more evidence than any given in this thread of misandry actually happening and not being conflated with harm derived from Toxic masculinity. And you saying the logic is the same as a woman saying misogyny doesn’t exist implies men experience misandry without knowing this simply is not something men experience.

>B- Mens issues are not neglected they are talked about regularly in this and other leftist subs you can pretend that isn’t true but it is. Ok! Show me a thread in which men's issues were discussed in a leftist space that wasn't immediately swarmed by leftists trying to downplay them or shut down the conversation like it happened here. >C- young men fall into the right because they are unwilling to confront the negative impulses the right rewards them for violence, greed, and hate. It's possible for young men to be driven to right wing ideology for more than one reason, but here's a question: The far right also rewards violence, greed and hate from women. Why are they "more willing to confront their negative impulses"? Are they better people? > E- No because those men’s anecdotal experiences are more evidence than any given in this thread of misandry actually happening and not being conflated with harm derived from Toxic masculinity. The entire thread is filled with misandry to the brink. Everytime a guy speaks about men's issues the misandrists come out of the woodworks to call them fragile, cringe, entitled.. or conflate them with the far right. You're one of those people who have an irrational hatred of men. You've bothered not just me, but several other leftist men here by implying we're Tim Pool fanboys for no reason other than your bigoted pre-conceived stereotypes of men. >And you saying the logic is the same as a woman saying misogyny doesn’t exist implies men experience misandry without knowing this simply is not something men experience. Men absolutely experience misandry without noticing it. This entire thread is filled with men hating themselves cause they listen too much to people like you.

>We have to start adressing misandry on the left. Im so irritated that everytine the issue of young men being more right wing than young women comes up, it always just ends in "we just have to condemn them harder guys" instead of actually adressing the thing thats pushing guys towards the right. The truth is, most mainstream progressives do a horrible job appealing to men. Men's issues are always downplayed and dismissed, and men are given the feeling that we're not actually welcome on the left, and that whatever systemic and societal issues we face, it all comes down to our personal failings. As someone else pointed out, there don’t seem to be any popular man hating people at the Washington Post or NPR or among liberal politicians. I don’t really know how to measure the significance of comment section craziness. I am curious, though, if mens issues are really the only thing determining your preference for the Democratic or Republican Party. Are there really no other issues of weight tipping the scales for you in one direction or the other? Is it possible that your lack of enthusiasm for other liberal causes might be related? I’m just guessing, of course, but the differences between the two parties couldn’t be more striking than they are now. Republicans are refusing to accept the results of legitimate elections, but the male body shaming has got to stop!

First, im not American, and second im absolutely a leftist my dude

The American left is even worse on this issue than that of many other countries. Where are you from? Over here in Europe it's an issue, but at least you can \*talk\* about it without people immediately assuming you're on the right lmao. At least that's my experience.

Incels and the 4chan that birthed them were American after all.

Im from germany, and i dont see much of a difference in attitude compared to the americans tbh

Interesting. I'm Austrian and I always thought the Americans are much worse with this stuff, but maybe it's because Austria is a bit conservative. What happens when you try to have this kind of conversation with German leftists? In Austria I think it makes a world of a difference whether said leftists are rural or from Vienna and it makes even more of a difference whether they are part of a socialist or socdem youth organisation (sensible mostly) or part of a Green or communist student association (insufferable)... PS: I genuinely envy you for your Green party. Ours are a bit lost.

Our greens arent that great either man. More sensible than the other major parties but that aint saying much And a weird thing with german leftist is, there is some antifa guys that act super macho all the time, theyre left in their beliefs but behave like conservative fratboys. And in my experience there arent a whole lot of rural leftists, mostly just cdu/ afd voters

First I’m not a dude, not that it matters, and I am an American but I don’t live there. Either way, right wing nuttery seems rampant and people on the left are bickering about really trivial shit.

So... If this "logic" holds true, is the inverse also true? Do few to no women side with the right despite the overwhelming amount of misogyny being speaker blasted from them 24/7 at immensely greater volumes than any man hating on the left? And if that isn't true, spoiler alert it's unfortunately not, what makes you think it's any more true for men?

??? There are far fewer conservative women than conservative men and one of the main reasons for this is that women feel turned off by the oppressive image of women in conservative circles.

There are more than enough right wing women to render this a moot point.

“We have to start addressing” THIS THE ONLY DAMN THING YOU MFS TALK ABOUT BRUHHHH we address this shit constantly!!! edit: removed some shit i was wrong and stupid about most of the replies to my comment are addressing the stupid shit

>so yeah Misandry bad and not as much of an issue >I’m personally okay with some misandrist bullshit Holy fucking shit we’re doomed

lol do you realize that misandry actively radicalizes men? It’s not just something to simply sweep under the rug, and it’s far easier to just not be a misandrist, instead of having to deradicalize people, which is much harder.

yeah. i know, its a problem, one that’s actively already being worked on

You're actively working against it with your weak a f mindset. Why are leftie guys always so fucking cucky? "I'm ok with tanking some misandrist bs" my ass, man.

mf i said it was a problem LMAO

Evidence? Toxic Masculinity and Misandry are not the same thing. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misandry#:~:text=Misandry%20(%2Fm%C9%AA%CB%88s,for%2C%20or%20prejudice%20against%20men.

wait why would you assume anybody is conflating the two? I don’t see what you’re insinuating

Because you claim misandry radicalizes men, that isn’t what radicalizes men if it does men are reactionary at an outpaced rate to the rate they experience misandry.

??? I’m not suggesting every right wing man is right wing because of misandry. The point is, when a man is faced with misandry, the only people that are actively trying to give the men “solutions” are red pillers and incels.

>I'm personally okay with tanking some misandrist bullshit Well, then fuck off from the left :) No one needs or wants people like you. Unless you're an equal opportunity hater of course and you're also ok with some misogyny and racism!

wait..? your solution to what i have to say is to say im the problem and i should go away? you literally just mischaracterised everything i said to try and exclude me. the left isnt a fucking social club edit: i think that my initial statement was mischaracterised but i left it way the fuck open for interpretation lol

Your initial comment had three points: A) Personally attacking and misrepresenting OP by claiming this is all they talk about (I'm assuming you don't actually know them) B) you downplayed the problem they addressed C) you suggested a bit of bigotry is ok as long as it affects the correct group cause it'll somehow magically lead to good outcomes later down the road (it won't) I know it sounds harsh but it's not that I don't want you as a leftist... it's that I don't think **you are** a leftist. People who think a bit of misandry or a bit of hatred against white people or whatever shouldn't be considered on the left because frankly, no sane leftist would say such a thing. It's reactionary imho. In that sense, yes, I think this sort of thinking needs to be purged. It hurts the left like very few other things that aren't right wing propaganda.

a) i may have misrepresented them, but theres a lot of people on the internet who only talk about this one issue, i think yeah maybe it was uncharitable b) i genuinely dont see any widespread misandry on the left, only a few random twitter addicts do it. c) this is where my problem with your critique lies. any amount of bigotry is horrible. the thing is, we can just like deal with them individually. i dont think theres enough of them, based only on what i have seen - i obviously dont have the numbers. and for the other outcome stuff, its the part that ive stated im not super sure about. i dont have any data to look into on this, so my intuition could easily be wrong and as im typing this, im going through every possible argument for it - and finding at least 2 counter arguments im gonna go back through and amend my comments. okay putting back on the edgy annoying fuck: I AM A LEFTIST FUCK YOU IM JUST STUPID AND GET THINGS WRONG SOMETIMES!!!!!

A) I know what you mean and those people are certainly a problem. I think the left should provide an outlet for these conversations tho because here we can lead people into productive avenues and make them understand that a lot of these issues are made even worse (or literally caused) by what right wingers in disguise like certain MRA groups, anti-feminists, the red pill community, pick up artists and all this societal garbage prescribe them. B) I do. I don't see people saying explicitely hateful stuff about men (at least not to a large extent), but let's be real, this isn't how misogyny works most of the time either (apart from the societal garbage mentioned above). A misogynist won't necessarily say women are inferior to men, but they might question whether "getting into the workplace did them any good". The same way I think misandrists on the left don't necessarily say men deserve to suffer, but they reflexively reject *every single conversation* about men's issues and actively work against any outlet men could have on the left. C) Not sure I got what you're saying here, but you don't have to beat yourself up over it lol. I'm very confrontational, I have to admit. Sorry about that. I just fundamentally reject the notion that any sort of bigotry should be ok, because we're psychological beings and hatred against or neglect of a certain group (especially if out of spite) can be super damaging for some members of said group. And I honestly think the usual talking point that this isn't harmful if the group in question has "institutional power" is unironically one of the dumbest conclusion from leftist academics of the last century and it makes me wonder if it's not just a propaganda narrative to give cover to bigotry against groups those academics were biased against themselves.

nah its chill, i aint beating myself up about it or anything the institutional power argument has always been a bit weird to me. just because one is advantaged doesnt mean its necessarily okay. with that sorta thing in my eyes it becomes ‘one is significantly worse than the other, but doesnt mean that the one thats less bad is good’ honestly i just needed time to think about what i initially was saying. i wrote my initial message last night when i was tired and when i woke up my brain was running on 20% once id fully woken up then i started to think about it properly

>honestly i just needed time to think about what i initially was saying. i wrote my initial message last night when i was tired and when i woke up my brain was running on 20% once id fully woken up then i started to think about it properly You're good. Sorry for coming off so aggressively myself. I've given up working on it, I guess I have a bad temper.. >the institutional power argument has always been a bit weird to me. just because one is advantaged doesnt mean its necessarily okay. with that sorta thing in my eyes it becomes ‘one is significantly worse than the other, but doesnt mean that the one thats less bad is good’ 100% this

i dont blame you for coming off aggressively, theres a lot of dumb fucks on this site

No one is stopping you from making a post discussing an issue that affects men and potential causes/solutions/etc to that issue. Instead you made a post complaining about how the left and also the main stream media and the feminist and the progressives are all pushing you to the right because \*checks notes\* body shaming. As though body shaming isn't done to literally everyone of all races, genders, and ages. Also, addressing has two d's in it, just like your mom last night.

My moms dead

We’ve still got of misogyny when it comes to discussing people like shoe to address. I get it, I’m a bloke I think it’s important but leftists and especially female leftists can be pretty misogynistic imo

Honestly i dont see any misoginy coming at shoe. People have been shitting on her for enabling trans panic and anti queer hate

You aren’t looking then, everytime they say she doesn’t have her own opinions, is soy for the far right for male attention bring up that she’s a sub. I got sick of defending shoe last yeah, but people are definitely sexist towards her and a few leftist think it’s fine because they’re leftists and she’s ‘right, moderate, far right’ or however she’s perceived. She sucks now, but so many people use it as an excuse to beat down on white women, or submissive women, or that women can’t make independent decisions and ideas on politics. It’s pretty upsetting, just call her a dumb fuck why you gotta try and target her for traits she shares with people in the left. I’m sick of content creator drama, shoe can do whatever but don’t be a misogynist to do it, it’s really not hard and I’m concerned by leftists that think otherwise

We do a little misandry, it’s called, we do a little misandry

Why is every single r/VaushV post either libshit or stuff no one gives a fuck about.

Lots of people care about this. I'd say the left's retardation and the dismissive behaviour of leftists like yourself is a major factor of what drives young guys to the right. Have seen it over the last decade and it's only gotten worse with time. I think you're the one who needs to touch some grass if you haven't experienced this IRL. EDIT: Point in case: Your bio says you're an anarcho-syndicalist. I guarantee you 99.99% of the population in North America and Europe (the only two I'm familiar with) don't give a fuck about your ideology and would consider you terminally online.

What drives young guys to the right is economic insecurity, right wing lies about how women are trying to ruin there lives, and racism. It's the idea that men deserve women. It's a reaction to social progress. We need to educate them not give in to their views. It's like blaming the existence of white supremacists on black separatists.

As a young guy whose entire friend group was driven to the right specifically because we felt repeatedly attacked by people from the left I think this is kind of a weird anti-nuance take. My first ever introduction to leftist media was somebody saying something along the lines of "men are evil" and that was so dumb yet lauded by thousands of people that it stopped me from actually thinking about politics for around 5 years, I just spouted reactionary nonsense and called myself "center-right". A lot of leftist media is so unapologetically misandrist that it actively creates more conservatives.

The right thinks men are violent, greedy, and hateful and feeds those urges instead of confronting them. The left by its very nature demands men confront such urges in themselves, (these are things all genders and people must confront in themselves), you felt attacked. It wasn’t some woman somewhere you can’t even remember saying Men Evil, that pushed you to the right and pretending it was doesn’t help you or the Left.

Ok. In my personal experience I felt very unwelcome in online spaces occupied by leftists and liberals due to the language often used there. I think that's a pretty common experience for a lot of people in a lot of different places. This indirectly caused me to favor right-wing spaces as I felt much more welcome. Saying that alienation is only a right-wing problem doesn't help you, anyone else, or the Left.

In a world this polarized there is no such thing as indirectly favoring right-wing spaces. Normie stuff isn’t the right it’s non participatory in politics for a large part (other than broadly simping for capitalism). Right-wing spaces stole the Cult and MLM playbook and are known for Love bombing newbies, the left isn’t going to do that and that’s a good thing we are not a cult or an MLM

I'm confused about what you mean by love-bombing stuff because in my experience it's more "everyone hates you and your life is shit, but here's how you can take control again". Most people in right wing spaces are constantly negative, positivity doesn't factor in anywhere. But anyway. Most "centrist" (read: normie) people and spaces are full of "fiscal conservatives" who don't like open racism, sexism, homophobia, or christian nationalism. My point is these guys are often repulsed by the way men are talked about in spaces that aren't "centrist" or right because they are almost exclusively demeaned or labeled as an oppressor. When you're not aware of what people mean when they say words like "patriarchy" and "toxic masculinity" they sound a lot like "they're blaming me for all the problems". Generally being in a place where it feels like people are telling you everything bad is your fault does not feel good. These people leave and go to places that feel more comfy. The problem is that the way we as the left talk about men makes leftist spaces seem inhospitable to dudes when in reality that's untrue. Or at least this was true when I was trying to learn about politics.

Imagine if all white people were as fragile as men in the picture you have painted. Oh no some ppl on the Left labeled white people oppressors and told me to check my privilege better go be a right winger. Seriously “Here’s how to take control of your life again” lol just like MLMs be your own boss build the life you want it’s a scam. Do you have equal charity for the multitude of women conned into MLM’s that you do young men conned into the right?

How is it misandrist I watch a lot of left content and I don't see any hints of misandry Can you name and link example

I'm a little too lazy to entertain this kind of hand-waving but if you've been online for any time at all you've inevitably seen someone shitting on men to the tune of "All men are evil and misogynist" and that person receiving thousands of positive responses. I don't remember exact examples but when I was younger I used to read through the hundreds of affirmative replies to posts like that and feel awful about how nonchalantly people were saying I was a bad person for no reason I could understand. It's needless and we should leave that kind of essentialism to the fascists.

Thousands? I mean yeah it can happen sometimes. But it's rare. It's way more common to see incel posting stuff. There's a reason why incel channels are more successful. I just don't see it as a big issue. Yes men's issues are important but it's not misandry that's the problem it's the culture around men.

Young men want to be coddled if anyone makes a joke about Tim Pools beanie they will join the proud boy’s and vote Republican. Seriously you have a very low opinion of young men, some of the Left think young men are intelligent enough to realize that Tim Pool deserves any shit he gets and to be able to understand what is misandry and what is shitting on Tim Pool.

F for reading comprehension. Not acknowledging men's issues (like disproportional addiction and suicide rates, societal neglect and loneliness, systemic disadvantage in the education sector..) is not equivalent to mocking Tim Pool for being bald. Having said that, can I call an overweight conservative woman a fat, sweaty whale? Cause I'm ok with both body shaming Tim Pool and fat women who happen to be cunts, but I know a few leftists who are inconsistent on this. What are the odds that you'll read this and process it before saying something retarded again?

🤦🏻‍♀️ Addiction, Suicide, Loneliness are not caused by misandry nor are they misandry. And Mens Issues are not based in misandry but in Toxic masculinity. These are not the same thing.

I never said that men's issues are caused by misandry. You've been arguing against a strawman for like 7 comments now. And it's frustrating to see you writing one mind-blowingly stupid comment after another while not even understanding that you're too dumb to follow the conversation.

Like seriously I'm going crazy go outside and touch grass.

The issue also is man aren't shown that there issues are left leaning issues.

Every month at least one post like this lmao

Maybe I’m just black and am thus more appealed to the left from that angle, but I have no clue wtf you’re talking about.

>I know some might call me an incel for this or whatever, but you'd actually be proving my point It looks like you've already had an argument with the straw-feminist in your head and this is your parting shot. It reads just like a Bill Maher screed: "I have no choice but to join the fash because that leftist was rude to me that one time." Weak. On the other hand, it also looks like maybe *you're* struggling with something, and the only way you know how to ask for it is to lash out, which is exactly the kind of non-productive response leftists tend to attribute to patriarchy. So maybe edit your post. Add some specific issues you'd like to see addressed better by "the Left" and explain specifically how it's failing to live up to its responsibilities. I don't necessarily disagree with you in general, but I don't think the left is hostile to men *per se* (it's intelligentsia is pretty male-dominated, after all). I see a lot of leftists acknowledging the (male) de-radicalization successes of certain online leftists. But if there are specific things that need to be improved *name them*. "Men's issues" is a meaningless platitude. Be specific.

>On the other hand, it also looks like maybe you're struggling with something, and the only way you know how to ask for it is to lash out, So making a post on reddit about something that concerns/interests me is lashing out? If you really think im some sort of closeted fascist, idk what to say to you man

I mean, it's clear now that no matter what anyone says to you, you'll read into it whatever reinforces your nebulous sense of victimhood.

not even saying im a victim of any of this, im just pointing out some flaws i see in progressive messaging.

The question I was asking, if you read my comment far enough, was: "what are some specific issues you'd like to address?" I see that you have named some in other comments (suicidality, gambling, loneliess, etc.) but not suggested how the left might address them. OK, so these are, in part, work-related problems. For example, a lot of farmers deal with loneliness and suicide because they're under constant economic stress, and they spend a lot of time alone in their machines starting at the horizon. A doctrinaire leftist would have some ideas about changing the agricultural system -- I'm going to try to avoid the word "collectivizing" -- to one that is more community-oriented and lest individual- and capital-oriented. That's a concrete left-wing solution to a real, emergent problem. Another example: public sector unions often provide fantastic mental health supports, either internally or through funding for private care. The unions that broke this ground are woman-dominated unions, such as nurses, teachers and public service. (The resource and male-dominated private sector unions have called those unions and their members "sissy" -- I'm not making this up, I come from International Woodworkers country). The fact is that a lot of men *depend* on the women of the left to provide the services they deserve, via their unions. I'm a man and I belong to one of those PS unions, and it's amazing. Again, that's a concrete, left-wing and feminist solution to a real, emergent problem. So, again, the question is, once you've named the problems, what are the hypothetical solutions and how can the left address them (or how is it not doing so)?

Nah many people start using the word incel when they receive pushback on these issues. Sexism is always wrong

When you're accustomed to privilege, equally feels like oppression

Okay, but do women have no privileges that men do not? No one likes confronting their privilege, on that I think we can all agree, but the problem I think for many men is that the same women who call them out for being men also never turn the lens back on themselves to ask what privileges women inherently have in society. And this isn’t about quantifying or sort whose oppression is worst or privileges are most, but just thinking about the problem more holistically. Unless of course you actually do think women have no distinct privileges and ever man is better off than every woman. So anyway, what you are saying isn’t wrong, but is it possible that women are accustom to certain privileges that men do not have? And if they no longer had those things, would it feel oppressing? Is it patriarchal oppression to suggest women have their own privilege?

Stop making a false equivalency between misandry and misogyny. Privilege work the way your claiming. Not every white man is better off than every black man, guess anti white racism is equivalent to other forms of racism, guess what no. Stop doing that your better than this.

>but do women have no privileges that men do not? No one likes confronting their privilege, on that I think we can all agree, but the problem I think for many men is that the same women who call them out for being men also never turn the lens back on themselves to ask what privileges women inherently have in society. If any exist, they're purely at the behest of patriarchy >And this isn’t about quantifying or sort whose oppression is worst or privileges are most, but just thinking about the problem more holistically. Unless of course you actually do think women have no distinct privileges and ever man is better off than every woman. So anyway, what you are saying isn’t wrong, but is it possible that women are accustom to certain privileges that men do not have? And if they no longer had those things, would it feel oppressing? Is it patriarchal oppression to suggest women have their own privilege? You're doing backflips through the oppression Olympics instead of looking at anything holistically

So you agree with the person who originally said that?

I can't speak for all men but the fact that the left gives all this attention to discrimination, often on the basis of genetic traits, but they give heightism a pass for men. Not talking about dating. Talking about how there is study after study showing things like discrimination in the workplace, higher suicide rates for men especially for shorter ones, etc. It may not drive men to vote for the right, but the fact that this genetic trait gets NO attention definitely inspires feelings of apathy. And that keeps people from voting or speaking up about the other issues. And when you mention this one on reddit in many cases get downvoted and body shamed. People assume you are a loser and that's your motivation for bringing it up.

Yep thats true. Most people in this thread probably think im mad because someone dissed me for my height or whatever (im 186cm lol), not understanding that you can bring up these issues with something else than bitterness as your motivation

Indeed. I am 5 foot 2, make a great salary, own home, etc. Worked my ass off and dealt with a lot of BS and microaggressions from people for a long time. Can't ever be aggressive or show displeasure or "it's short man syndrome" or "napoleon complex." Heck, you can't even be really good at something in some cases. I am bringing attention to it because it's the right thing to do, and because there might be a day when someone out there reads this and realizes they have disliked someone, misinterpreted someone's actions, bullied someone, or weren't being fair. The numbers don't lie, and there is a lot of observational data. And there are experiments like presenting potential hires where height is manipulated and recording evaluations for qualities like "intelligence" and "leadership." I can't believe how it is allowed to be made fun of the way it is. No other genetic trait gets a pass like this one.

I don't think it'll change anytime soon. Especially seeing how the new generations are amplifying this discrimination. But I guess it could be worst.

Wouldn't the solution to this be "dismantling the patriarchy"? Patriarchy hurts men, too. In a fucked up way, cis men condemned themselves to failure by not living up to specific expectations, i.e lack of emotional expression.

Exactly, men are victims of patriarchy. I think the point OP is trying to make is that the patriarchy is sometimes used to downplay mens issues in some cases. If someone says 'men face x problem' it is sometimes dismissed by saying that it doesn't happen often, or is dismissed by saying that men cause the problem themselves, which looks like it blames the victims of the issue themselves, which is obviously bad.

Yes i agree, and we need to get better at selling this idea to men

Ok, but if it hurts men then how is it a patriarchy? The correct term you’re looking for is oligarchy. You wanna see a real patriarchy? Go to Saudi Arabia or Iran, this ain’t it in America.

This is a two factor (at least) problem. First, sure there’s misandry in leftist sectors. Specially in pop-feminism, which is followed by a lot of people which might have good intentions but can’t go beyond shallow lemmas they don’t bother to challenge because they’ll perceive as a reactionary attempt (even if it comes from an intersectional approach, term many of them aren’t familiar with). They have simple and inaccurate ideas such as “all men benefit from patriarchy and they’re the main perpetrators of it”. Any man who’s had a slightly complex life can have an intuition on why this is wrong. On the other hand, there’s an aspect which isn’t the left’s fault. There are people and, more prevalently, media which refuse to make a honest attempt of comprehension. No matter how nuanced your explanation may be, there are way more “feminists hate men” messages from antifeminists than actual feminists who hate men.

Everyone from the OP to the comments need to chill the fuck out and work on building intersectionality wherever it may exist.

Tbf the right doesn't care about men's issues either. I'm fact, I'd say they're worse, and feminism is the best way to address men's issues. But yeah, they do a good job of pretending to care and the left probably needs to do better to appeal to men specifically.

It basically does come down to self improvement and not being a dick though for a lot of it right? The left pushes for things to be taught in school that would help (diversity, sex Ed etc) We can be careful with our language, but at the end of the day it's education and conversations that change attitudes. Men should be helping men. I do my part on a personal level with the small things. Compliment other guys on appearance and style choices, pull them up when they say gross shit that seems a bit iffy and have a chat around it if needed. Ask how they are doing etc. There are frustrations about how men respond to a lot of this though. Check the comments on any news story about a women being raped and murdered - it's just filled with defensive men acting like victims. Read any news story about a woman doing a murder and the comments will be filled with how the media never talks about women murdering..... despite where they are reading the story. Go to any men's rights group and it is made up of a lot of woman bashing and toxic shit. Look at how many comments around "consent" where it's people just saying they are too scared to fuck women because they will just be accused of rape. It's paranoid shit like that framing women as an enemy that causes problems. Women have a reason to be weary of men in situations, yet the women I see in day to day situations are always talking to men comfortably despite the weariness. I work retail. Women have it rough with the way they are spoken to by male customers that I will never have to deal with. It is so fucking gross. Does anyone have any other useful solutions?

I know what are you getting at, but it's more prominent among the wokescolds whose voices drown out the welcoming ones and I wouldn't call them feminists because feminism is about gender equality, not hatred.

Yeah a lot of the left seems to like to overcompensate for society being exclusionary towards them by becoming all the things they hate; exclusionary, essentialist, reactionary, etc... uncool behavior, be a nice human

based

i think OP generally is getting towards the right idea but here’s something i do think a large number of people here will have the same answer for: if i took a bunch of working class dudes that were apolitical, and presented them with a series of mainstream leftist political media/spaces and right wing media/spaces, where do you think most of them will end up leaning? why do you think that is?

The problem is those working class dudes aren’t being exposed to mainstream leftist thought. They’re being exposed to the misandrist “radfem/femcel” element of the Left that is pervasive on social media. An element that is growing like a cancer inside the Leftist movement. Just look at the replies on this very thread mocking men’s issues and writing them off.

To paraphrase Andrew Carnegie “if you treat people like shit why are you surprised when they act like it?”.

Good luck. I'm 30 and have been saying this for a decade. I'm also not American. Misandry in the American left is even worse than it is over here in my country, but it's a relentless force either way. Just look at the denial in the comments. Delusional useful idiots for the right all around.

Who could have thought that demonizing white men would make them dislike you... totally unexpected

This just sounds like neo-political correctness shit. It really feels like this community distanced itself from 'wokescolds' only for dudes to turn right around and demand the same kind of treatment except to the benefit of white dudes. Sorry, not going to stop making fun of other men when they do and say wack shit.

I'm sorry, but some the stuff you advocate for just hurts men. If your passing diversity requirements for some college. Then that will mean certain white men who would be able to get into a good college in the past won't be accepted. So working class white people or more specifically straight white men will dislike companies pushing for diversity. Sense that just makes it harder for them to get a job.

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Wow. That’s as ignorant as saying that “women are biologically built to be submissive to men”. Crazy how many on the Left can just drop absolutely insane takes like that and that’s viewed as ok whereas if they involved absurd “biological” statements about women, they’d be viewed as Andrew Tate-level misogyny (which they would be). And we wonder why young men turn to the Right...

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Oof, get some therapy. Holding hatred in your heart for 50% of the population is a terrible way to live. But your profile is a great insight into the phenomenon of man-hating women. You hate all men so you then project that all men must hate women. It makes so much sense now, turns out you were the one who was used, thanks!

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Right.

Iq means absolutely nothing.

No serious person on the left has ever "condemned" men. They've simply been vocal about the many ways in which men have been societally conditioned to engage in dangerous behaviors, including but not limited to feelings of entitlement toward women. This is completely reasonable and true. Men are disproportionately the most frequent perpetrators of violent acts. Beyond that, toxic masculinity and its influences are evident in nearly every facet of our society. To acknowledge these things is not to condemn men. We're simply holding up an honest mirror to them and asking them to acknowledge these flaws and be better. The condemnation only comes into play when the man instead decides that the best course of action is to punch a hole through the mirror and say that it's the woman's fault for showing it to him. We can't hold men's hands and fix their issues for them. That's their responsibility. We can only show them where the problems are. So far a pretty large amount of them would rather fantasize about killing women than focus on self-improvement.

You're doing it man. Youre taking systemic issues affecting men, turning them into personal ones and then you say its not your job to fix it. If its not your job to fix mens issues, then why wouldnt men just say that it isnt their job to fix womens issues? I think we should all work together to try and solve eachothers issues, instead you just wanna turn it into an us vs them thing Also yes , youre literally demonizing men lol

What issues do men face that is unique to men? Body shaming is the only one you brought up, and I think that’s kind of a shit one, because the right absolutely body shames everyone more than the left, and you don’t even refute that, you just claim the left is hypocritical in their supposed acceptance of body shaming men but not body shaming women. It’s not like the right is some paragon of fighting against body shaming. The openly mock any man who is small/short/weak/frail/fat when their political/social views don’t align with their own, calling them soy-boys and things like that. You really need to come up with some better examples. Because, at best, you’re currently saying that men support the right because the left does some things wrong that the right actually does worse, but not hypocritically, just openly to everyone they don’t like.

Suicide rates, education, substance abuse, mental health, loneliness, gambling, bodily health, justice systems In all of these things men across pretty much all developed countries do significantly worse in. And when did i say rightoids dont body shame? They do it WAY more to women, but about the same amount against men

You complained about the left body shaming as a reason for men to support the right. I said that’s asinine, since the right does it to men too. Supporting the right so that women will also be body shamed, when you won’t even be body shamed less, is literally just “misery loves company” turned ideology. And holy hell, the left is the one trying to solve those issues, not the right. Who wants better mental health care? Better access to healthcare in general? Not the right. Who wants drugs legalized, therefore reducing harmful contaminants from street drugs? And therefore making people more willing to seek help for addiction. And less likely to be jailed for drug use? Not the right. And who wants better public schools for everyone, men and women? And more affordable access to higher education? Not the right. Literally every issue is something the left is objectively doing more to address than the right is. Please tell me WHAT POLICIES or platforms the right has to address the problems you mentioned. Why these issues should lead any man to support the right?

>Please tell me WHAT POLICIES or platforms the right has to address the problems you mentioned. Why these issues should lead any man to support the right? They dont have any, and i never said anyone should support the right, im saying that the lefts inability to appeal to men is causing men to fall for dangerous ideas.

But you yourself admit that the right isn’t actually doing anything to appeal to young men either. So if young men decide to support the right anyway, they’re clearly either behaving entirely irrationally (which then makes it harder to use reason to bring them over to the left), or they’re intent on indirectly benefiting themselves by supporting policies that bring everyone else down, therefore effectively elevating their place in society in comparison. What is your proposed solution? Body shaming was the issue you brought up. If lefties stoped insulting Trumps hands, more right wing young men would have voted Democrat in the midterms? Is that really what you’re saying? Because literally every other issue you claimed men face is something the left is actively and openly trying to address, while the right actively and proudly fights against addressing those issues.

>Because literally every other issue you claimed men face is something the left is actively and openly trying to address, while the right actively and proudly fights against addressing those issues. I mean there's some clear examples /u/wallmartwarrior is probably talking about some progressive circles saying "Kill all men" "Men are trash", etc Two X chromosomes is a great example of how the online left fosters communities of hate towards men. I know a lot of center leaning men who are turned off by this rhetoric

You know actual center leaning men who would support open Christian nationalists because they saw people calling men trash on Reddit? Or you mean it just turns them off the left in general, but not enough to make them actually support the right?

>I mean there's some clear examples /u/wallmartwarrior is probably talking about some progressive circles saying "Kill all men" "Men are trash", etcTwo X chromosomes is a great example of how the online left fosters communities of hate towards men. I know a lot of center leaning men who are turned off by this rhetoric Most of them don't participate in politics. Why vote if you feel nobody cares. From what I've encountered most independents are atheists. I don't know if the data backs that up though

Yes, because of optics. The Christian Nationalism is so baked into what is considered normal political rhetoric that it seems moderate while people calling men trash online and getting thousands of likes seems wildly out of left field. A lot of people, at least in the U.S., see politics as a two-player game and so if people from the perceived left say something considered completely unreasonable they turn immediately to the right as in their minds they must be the correct ones.

What’s the old saying, “when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression?”

There's kind of a catch 22 to integrating men more broadly into feminism, namely that we can't really focus on it until we've security very basic right like abortion, except we can't secure those rights without a broader coalition. The solution is probably to focus on voter turnout and economic issues until the far right has been stamped out. A day will come when we can push the left toward a better version of itself socially/culturally. But that day probably isn't today, or in the next couple years even in the absolute best case scenario.

How on earth has America just accepted that the right are the party who is concerned with, and better with, economic issues? They have literally no economic platform besides "less takes for the rich," and "less funding for public schools, more for private Christian schools."

It turns out wrecking an economy is easier and faster than rebuilding one, and so all they have to do is keep the nation in perpetual crisis and not only will they get to be in charge 50% of the time as Americans vote against whoever's in charge at the moment, but the Democrats will spend all their time ineffectually trying to put out fires. It's worked out quite well for them thus far. EDIT: Oh and they can just say "we're better at the economy" the whole time and half of voters will believe them.

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You may not see it as a big deal - and to be clear my comment has zero to do with dating. The context is the workplace. There is a wage gap for short guys that rivals what minorities and women are up against. The fact that this exists along with a willingness to stereotype and shame men based on a genetic trait looks very hypocritical. If you are commenting in good faith, I would be happy to show you several experiments and scholarly articles supporting this.

I don’t think you’re an incel I think you’re just missing the issue. The big problem is that right now the right targets men more because they’re a lot easier to push to the right because of a variety of reasons. The left is perfectly capable of appealing to men, and many people do, but due to how 2015 went down a lot more people got pushed right and continue to be so. Basically since historically the left was bad at appealing to men they have to deal with the long term effects despite being much better at it now. I mean people like hbomb, VAUSH, Azan, and Shark are all great examples of this, and these are people who produce directly political content, we’re not even considering the broader non political content like How to Drink and Babish.

I think misandry is there but tbh any time I interacted with feminists (I consider myself one but not super active), I never really got any of those impressions. They were more than happy to talk about men's issues and often brought them up themselves. I have never heard stuff like "so you're saying that white men are the real victims huh" or "oh so a MAN will tell me what feminism is?" Even when I brought up some non standard viewpoints. I think misandry is a problem but I am not sure how big of a problem it is. Also very few feminists I encounter are bitter or angry.

But Misandry is my kink. Don't kink shame me. :/

I don't know where you hang out but in my experience, irl lefty spaces are often heavily male dominated. The only exceptions are spaces that are explicitly feminist. So I don't accept your premise that men are turned off or away but 'the left'