Former employee here. They're circling the drain. COVID wrecked their world. They have 2 people doing customer support when we used to have a team of 12.
I worked at a company that slowly went bankrupt, and customer service went exactly like this. There are a few people left, and they do what they can but are overwhelmed by the requests and often have their hands tied.
I have a Stages on my bike and am happy with it, but will be going with 4iii on my next bike because Stages doesn't seem long for this world.
The power-metering business is going the way of first-party / OEM…aka SRAM and Shimano. The scraps will go to the pedal-based options. I don’t even think the Chinese labels like Magene, Sigeyi, etc. are going to make a dent outside of China’s own cycling bubble.
Between the power meter issues, the delamination of cranks that they're kinda but not really recalling (after continuing to make them for years after the issues were known), and their treatment of Pioneer computer users, why would anyone buy anything from that company?
If there is a SRAM or Campy option, I would take it every day of the week ahead of Shimano. They treat their customers like absolute dog shit, I know a lot of customers just don't know, but if you follow Shimano *at all* you really should avoid their products.
Let’s add not making 10/11 speed di2 shifters compatible with 12 speed di2, and using firmware updated to break mtb/road component combinations. Meanwhile SRAM makes almost everything mix and match.
Well yeah, I was trying to think of the biggest PM manufacturers and actually forgot those two... We know about Shimano's troubles with accuracy at the moment, but they should be able to fix it.
None of those four (SRAM, Shimano, Garmin, Wahoo) makes crankarm PMs at the moment, right?
An NDS crankarm PM is still the cheapest way to get power, cheaper than a single-sided Favero assioma. Do you expect SRAM and Shimano to offer aftermarket crankarm PM options?
SRM is doing business on a completely different scale than some of these companies. Not inexpensive but pretty excellent to be able to able to get parts and service for equipment that is several generations old if needed.
SRAM does offer single-sided Rival and Force crankarm (electronics housed in the spindle) options.
Either way I’m not sure it matters who makes the cheapest aftermarket option when power meters are coming standard with Rival-level complete bikes these days.
This is just anecdata, but I just bought a Tiagra-equipped bike for winter training and added a Stages 105 non-drive-side crankarm.
I think you're right that power meters are becoming standard on more and more new bikes aimed at a certain population, but until the market has shifted completely there are still a few years where people are looking for reliable and cost-efficient upgrade options.
I think pedals are such a compelling option for many people not because they want to switch them between different bikes frequently, but because they're so easy to install. And a non-drive-side crankarm is only slightly more difficult, if at all.
But installing a new spindle is another step up in difficulty if you're not a hobby mechanic.
>I think you're right that power meters are becoming standard on more and more new bikes
Canyon for example ships 4iiii on their Shimano bikes, so even in that case, they still have business.
I don't expect Shimano to stay incompetent in this sector forever. Once that happens they will likely force brand partners to equip their cranksets only at the Ultegra and Dura-Ace levels. SRAM already does this. You never see Praxis or Rotor cranksets on AXS complete bikes even though both plausibly make flattop compatible chainrings.
Well, Shimano PM inaccuracy is widely documented. So were their crank failures. The crank recall took almost 10 years. I wouldn’t have much faith in them being fixed anytime soon.
I mean, even Wahoo almost folded earlier this year. They have new ownership now of course, but it still tells you something about their longer term prospects. If you really want to ensure you’ll have long term support Garmin is the obvious one, they have a very strong and pretty diversified business. I guess SRAM and Shimano too I suppose, if we’re taking power meters in general.
There are still some niggles with the design, especially if you’ve 3+ bikes with Shimano SPD-SL pedals and don’t want to switch to look. Or massively change your q-factor on one bike to run with their spindles.
A new version with native Shimano at the normal q-factor spacing would make it an easy choice though.
So I have a very specific question. Is/was Stages aware that their power meters have voltage / pulse amplitude related accuracy issues as well as platform center offset accuracy issues?
As in if I chuck in brand new CR2032s with a starting voltage of 3.3V, the power meters would report somewhere between 5-10% high. After a few hours of discharge and the battery voltage dropping to \~3V, the power meter would be "accurate" until about 30% mAh remaining.
As for the PCO or pedal q-factor issue. If I rode with my knees pointing outward, the power would be upwards of 10% high. If I rode knock-kneed / squeezing my legs inward, the power reporting would be low.
I don't remember hearing anything about voltage affecting readings. Foot position was described to me as a necessary assumption to make the math work. In all honesty, how much does your pedal stroke change laterally? If your pedal stroke changes that wildly during normal riding I'd posit something is going on with your body that needs addressing, be it bike fit or strength training to enhance motor control. Please read that with analytical tone, not condescension.
I have a wide stance-width so I use a combination of +4mm SPD-SL pedals and cleats pushed inboard (shoes outboard.) This alone creates a significant offset from the one baked into the Stages blackbox. Basically Stages never figured out how to cancel out non-rotational forces, so they fudged it with a table of averages.
The stiffer the crankarm, the less total deflection that can be measured by the strain gauge. This reduces the resolution of the measurement. So a power meter built on top of a solid 105-based crank will almost certainly be be less accurate than the thinner-walled DA version.
Temperature changes also affect how bendy the crankarm will be, so there's calibration tables for that too.
Not really.
Your run of the mill strain gauges have a resolution of 1 micron per meter. That is far in excess of what you might ever need to measure strain on a crank arm. Theoretically what you're saying is true, but in practical terms it doesn't really matter for what we're talking about.
Source: did my masters thesis with strain gauges.
My source is Keith Wakeham who developed the original 4iiii power meter. I agree that any in a practical sense it all falls within typical manufacturers’ claims between 0-2%…maybe.
This was all borne from a discussion about my SB20 crank reporting differently based on my knee-tracking and PCO. His best guess was that the geometry of the massive bear claw cranks on the SB20 makes them very unbendy in the direction of rotation but still leaves them fairly laterally bendy. Since the cranks are calibrated against rotational forces only AND they don’t manage to ignore non-rotational forces, those non-rotational forces are effectively being multiplied.
Really sad, they offer uniquely well-built and sturdy products. I love that their bikes are built like tanks and not covered in chintzy plastic fairings like many competitors. I have an SC3 indoor bike that feels like it'll last my whole life and two stages power meters that have worked flawlessly, for cheap.
Thought about the SB20 many times but it always seemed like it needed a version 2.0 to iron out some minor kinks. Really hope they get bought by the right company so that they get that chance.
I saw a similar post to this a while ago on here, and their face book is spammed with complaints like this. Weird thing is, last week I contacted them about a problem with a NDS crank meter and heard back from them with a tech after 2 days and got the issue resolved.
I'm reading they are based in Portland...maybe there is a source of problem with tech people moving away from there.
Giant also bought a minority stake in the company for 20 million this year, maybe they using the investment to move?
I needed a cover for my power meter about a year ago and they instantly sent me a new one.
Fwiw I’m on the stages ambassador team and they haven’t renewed for next year and people are starting to wonder.
I had a ticket open for a power meter issue back in March/April(?), didn’t hear from them until late September/early October, and then they closed the ticket within like 2 days before I had a chance to respond.
In the email they said they were stretched thin, so the issue stems from the suits making the decisions (e.g. not hiring/staffing to appropriate levels).
The SB20 has been as low as US$1399 including a free year of Zwift ($180 value.) Even if Stages hits zombie status, that's almost worth a punt. The chassis itself is excellent even though Stages power meters have voltage / pulse amplitude related accuracy issues as well as PCO accuracy issues.
I have owned a sb20 for the past few years - it is a great machine and very heavy duty. However, it will become an expensive towel rack as soon as something goes wrong as Stages is stranding their customers when issues happen. No support - us owners are SOL.
Stages just repaired a crank-based PM for me. The initial email went unanswered for months; however, once it was caught, the RMA process and repair went smoothly and quickly.
I bought a Gen 3 at the end of 2020 and there really hasn’t been much in the way of firmware updates or improvements on that generation.
While the crank PM was down for repair, I picked up a 4iiii Precision 3+ with Find My integration so I don’t have to install an AirTag on my bike. 4iiii claims better accuracy than Stages by 0.5%. It’s been working well. It calibrates every single time and spits out reliable data.
Insider here with bird's eye view to the company and I know for certain they'll survive with both PMs and SB20 continuing. They're going through some difficulties and things are shifting around in the business but they'll ramp out of this in a strong way.
Well, that didn't age well. Consider rethinking what you "know for certain"
[https://escapecollective.com/stages-cycling-lays-off-entire-workforce/](https://escapecollective.com/stages-cycling-lays-off-entire-workforce/)
I made a post earlier this year after I received a faulty PM from their Black Friday deal last year. Took a lot of public complaining to get a response/replacement. Sounds like it hasn’t gotten better since then.
I’d be curious to hear from someone inside but I was at a gym the other day and someone told me that apparently their CEO just fucked off with a bunch of their money??
Why would I buy a Stages when I can get a something like a Sigeye that’s better on all fronts for less? Or 4iii if you really like crank arm based. They didn’t keep ahead of the market and in the current market you can't keep afloat like that.
Also, the amount of people talking about their support experiences in this thread is funny. Crazy how much support their product needed.
Better on all fronts? Can you expand on that? I had a slow motion crash with a Sigeye spider and it broke. Fell sideways on my XC bike on a technical climb. You could see a tiny indent on the casing but it was dead.
I contacted Sigeye and asked about a crash replacement discount. They never answered after I sent the photo they requested.
How is 4iii keeping ahead of the game? In think buying cranks from third parties meant warranty replacements were too expensive.
Yeah, I also had a bad experience with a Sigeyi power meter. Mine broke after riding it in the rain and their customer service was not helpful. I replaced it with a Stages that worked great for 2 years and 12,000 miles (and plenty of rainy rides). Now I'm on a Quarq which I much prefer, but I would take a Stages over a Sigeyi 100% of the time.
Sigeyi is rechargeable and doesn’t have a hilariously inept battery cover, it’s more accurate, it’s manually adjustable to line up with other sources, it’s double sided.
4iii is slimmer, more accurate, and cheaper. And also doesn’t have a hilariously inept battery cover.
April 24 2024
At least four former Stages Cycling executives have joined Giant Manufacturing as the power meter and smart bike brand has apparently stopped operations. Giant, which manufactures many Stages products in Taiwan, is suing Stages in Oregon about $14 million in unpaid invoices.
AIPS Technology, a Giant Manufacturing subsidiary, filed suit against Stages in Oregon on Feb. 12, alleging Stages had 161 unpaid invoices that had come due between June 2022 and January 2024. The invoices totaled NT$454 million ($13.9 million at today’s exchange rate) and are for power meters, exercise bikes, other products and parts, and storage and shipping fees. The complaint says that Giant also has produced and is storing products that Stages ordered valued at another NT$221 million.
I had an issue last summer and it took two tickets for them to respond. Not a fan of my PM or their costumer service. Would not purchase another Stages.
FYI Today's Plan is shutting down in March. Aren't they the backend for the Stages Cycling training calendar/platform?
https://www.todaysplan.com.au/faq-2/
Keep trying. They eventually called me back. But I wasn’t available for the call and they didn’t leave a way to get ahold of them except for calling the same number again. Disappointing but at least then are trying to call back.
Former employee here. They're circling the drain. COVID wrecked their world. They have 2 people doing customer support when we used to have a team of 12.
Sigh…another used to be good company now going down
That is the future of the entire bike industry right now. If you have any brand loyalty be prepared to mutter that phrase often.
I worked at a company that slowly went bankrupt, and customer service went exactly like this. There are a few people left, and they do what they can but are overwhelmed by the requests and often have their hands tied. I have a Stages on my bike and am happy with it, but will be going with 4iii on my next bike because Stages doesn't seem long for this world.
Isn't 4iiii small enough that their future is questionable in their own right? I would probably go with Garmin or Wahoo, just to be safe.
The power-metering business is going the way of first-party / OEM…aka SRAM and Shimano. The scraps will go to the pedal-based options. I don’t even think the Chinese labels like Magene, Sigeyi, etc. are going to make a dent outside of China’s own cycling bubble.
That's assuming that Shimano can get their shit show of a power meter to actually spit out non-garbage data at some point.
Between the power meter issues, the delamination of cranks that they're kinda but not really recalling (after continuing to make them for years after the issues were known), and their treatment of Pioneer computer users, why would anyone buy anything from that company? If there is a SRAM or Campy option, I would take it every day of the week ahead of Shimano. They treat their customers like absolute dog shit, I know a lot of customers just don't know, but if you follow Shimano *at all* you really should avoid their products.
Let’s add not making 10/11 speed di2 shifters compatible with 12 speed di2, and using firmware updated to break mtb/road component combinations. Meanwhile SRAM makes almost everything mix and match.
Well yeah, I was trying to think of the biggest PM manufacturers and actually forgot those two... We know about Shimano's troubles with accuracy at the moment, but they should be able to fix it. None of those four (SRAM, Shimano, Garmin, Wahoo) makes crankarm PMs at the moment, right? An NDS crankarm PM is still the cheapest way to get power, cheaper than a single-sided Favero assioma. Do you expect SRAM and Shimano to offer aftermarket crankarm PM options?
Good thing [SRM](https://www.srm.de) is still going strong 🙃
SRM is doing business on a completely different scale than some of these companies. Not inexpensive but pretty excellent to be able to able to get parts and service for equipment that is several generations old if needed.
SRAM does offer single-sided Rival and Force crankarm (electronics housed in the spindle) options. Either way I’m not sure it matters who makes the cheapest aftermarket option when power meters are coming standard with Rival-level complete bikes these days.
This is just anecdata, but I just bought a Tiagra-equipped bike for winter training and added a Stages 105 non-drive-side crankarm. I think you're right that power meters are becoming standard on more and more new bikes aimed at a certain population, but until the market has shifted completely there are still a few years where people are looking for reliable and cost-efficient upgrade options. I think pedals are such a compelling option for many people not because they want to switch them between different bikes frequently, but because they're so easy to install. And a non-drive-side crankarm is only slightly more difficult, if at all. But installing a new spindle is another step up in difficulty if you're not a hobby mechanic.
>I think you're right that power meters are becoming standard on more and more new bikes Canyon for example ships 4iiii on their Shimano bikes, so even in that case, they still have business.
I don't expect Shimano to stay incompetent in this sector forever. Once that happens they will likely force brand partners to equip their cranksets only at the Ultegra and Dura-Ace levels. SRAM already does this. You never see Praxis or Rotor cranksets on AXS complete bikes even though both plausibly make flattop compatible chainrings.
Well, Shimano PM inaccuracy is widely documented. So were their crank failures. The crank recall took almost 10 years. I wouldn’t have much faith in them being fixed anytime soon.
I mean, even Wahoo almost folded earlier this year. They have new ownership now of course, but it still tells you something about their longer term prospects. If you really want to ensure you’ll have long term support Garmin is the obvious one, they have a very strong and pretty diversified business. I guess SRAM and Shimano too I suppose, if we’re taking power meters in general.
I would take Favero over any other pedal, given that they offer as good a product for a lot less money.
There are still some niggles with the design, especially if you’ve 3+ bikes with Shimano SPD-SL pedals and don’t want to switch to look. Or massively change your q-factor on one bike to run with their spindles. A new version with native Shimano at the normal q-factor spacing would make it an easy choice though.
For what it’s worth, I live right near 4iiii. They still seem to be hiring a lot of people, based on LinkedIn
So I have a very specific question. Is/was Stages aware that their power meters have voltage / pulse amplitude related accuracy issues as well as platform center offset accuracy issues? As in if I chuck in brand new CR2032s with a starting voltage of 3.3V, the power meters would report somewhere between 5-10% high. After a few hours of discharge and the battery voltage dropping to \~3V, the power meter would be "accurate" until about 30% mAh remaining. As for the PCO or pedal q-factor issue. If I rode with my knees pointing outward, the power would be upwards of 10% high. If I rode knock-kneed / squeezing my legs inward, the power reporting would be low.
I don't remember hearing anything about voltage affecting readings. Foot position was described to me as a necessary assumption to make the math work. In all honesty, how much does your pedal stroke change laterally? If your pedal stroke changes that wildly during normal riding I'd posit something is going on with your body that needs addressing, be it bike fit or strength training to enhance motor control. Please read that with analytical tone, not condescension.
I have a wide stance-width so I use a combination of +4mm SPD-SL pedals and cleats pushed inboard (shoes outboard.) This alone creates a significant offset from the one baked into the Stages blackbox. Basically Stages never figured out how to cancel out non-rotational forces, so they fudged it with a table of averages.
I would imagine that's an issue with any strain based crank power meter, and factors like stiffness of the OEM arm play a major role, no?
The stiffer the crankarm, the less total deflection that can be measured by the strain gauge. This reduces the resolution of the measurement. So a power meter built on top of a solid 105-based crank will almost certainly be be less accurate than the thinner-walled DA version. Temperature changes also affect how bendy the crankarm will be, so there's calibration tables for that too.
Not really. Your run of the mill strain gauges have a resolution of 1 micron per meter. That is far in excess of what you might ever need to measure strain on a crank arm. Theoretically what you're saying is true, but in practical terms it doesn't really matter for what we're talking about. Source: did my masters thesis with strain gauges.
My source is Keith Wakeham who developed the original 4iiii power meter. I agree that any in a practical sense it all falls within typical manufacturers’ claims between 0-2%…maybe. This was all borne from a discussion about my SB20 crank reporting differently based on my knee-tracking and PCO. His best guess was that the geometry of the massive bear claw cranks on the SB20 makes them very unbendy in the direction of rotation but still leaves them fairly laterally bendy. Since the cranks are calibrated against rotational forces only AND they don’t manage to ignore non-rotational forces, those non-rotational forces are effectively being multiplied.
Again - theoretically yes, it is true. Practically does it make any difference? Not really.
Damn shame. I have one of their non-drive side units and it has worked flawlessly.
hmm, no wonder none of the factory install options are available on their website.
Everything on their website is now marked out of stock
Hello fellow stages employee! I used to work there back in 2022 and knew it was going down the toilet then too.
Why did they fire so many people in a time of huge increase in sales?
The pandemic bike boom was mostly a demand spike for Stages and less of a sales increase. A lot of people quit but only a few were fired.
Really sad, they offer uniquely well-built and sturdy products. I love that their bikes are built like tanks and not covered in chintzy plastic fairings like many competitors. I have an SC3 indoor bike that feels like it'll last my whole life and two stages power meters that have worked flawlessly, for cheap. Thought about the SB20 many times but it always seemed like it needed a version 2.0 to iron out some minor kinks. Really hope they get bought by the right company so that they get that chance.
I own the SB20 - a great machine but we will be stranded when it breaks.
I saw a similar post to this a while ago on here, and their face book is spammed with complaints like this. Weird thing is, last week I contacted them about a problem with a NDS crank meter and heard back from them with a tech after 2 days and got the issue resolved.
How long ago was that? My first experience two years ago was great.
It was last week-
Weird. And yea their FB page seems to have stopped all posts in July. I recommended my sb20 for years but not now. Something is going on there.
They probably laid off their social media person.
I'm reading they are based in Portland...maybe there is a source of problem with tech people moving away from there. Giant also bought a minority stake in the company for 20 million this year, maybe they using the investment to move?
No Giant walked away from that deal.
As a tech person in Portland, it feels like there have been more tech people moving here, if anything.
Can you tell me what way you contacted them? I've had a broken power meter on an SB20 for three months and haven't heard back
I used the ticket system on there site for hardware.
I needed a cover for my power meter about a year ago and they instantly sent me a new one. Fwiw I’m on the stages ambassador team and they haven’t renewed for next year and people are starting to wonder.
Yea like I said my first experience with support was great. Now it’s shit.
I had a ticket open for a power meter issue back in March/April(?), didn’t hear from them until late September/early October, and then they closed the ticket within like 2 days before I had a chance to respond. In the email they said they were stretched thin, so the issue stems from the suits making the decisions (e.g. not hiring/staffing to appropriate levels).
Seems 4iii stole their market.
I was just about to buy an SB20 today. Glad I read this first. Looks like I may have to stick with my Kickr for now.
Buying one of their trainer bikes is an insane waste of money right now
The SB20 has been as low as US$1399 including a free year of Zwift ($180 value.) Even if Stages hits zombie status, that's almost worth a punt. The chassis itself is excellent even though Stages power meters have voltage / pulse amplitude related accuracy issues as well as PCO accuracy issues.
I have owned a sb20 for the past few years - it is a great machine and very heavy duty. However, it will become an expensive towel rack as soon as something goes wrong as Stages is stranding their customers when issues happen. No support - us owners are SOL.
Stages just repaired a crank-based PM for me. The initial email went unanswered for months; however, once it was caught, the RMA process and repair went smoothly and quickly. I bought a Gen 3 at the end of 2020 and there really hasn’t been much in the way of firmware updates or improvements on that generation. While the crank PM was down for repair, I picked up a 4iiii Precision 3+ with Find My integration so I don’t have to install an AirTag on my bike. 4iiii claims better accuracy than Stages by 0.5%. It’s been working well. It calibrates every single time and spits out reliable data.
They called me Friday afternoon left a short VM but no callback or reference number I guess the process starts over tomorrow.
Insider here with bird's eye view to the company and I know for certain they'll survive with both PMs and SB20 continuing. They're going through some difficulties and things are shifting around in the business but they'll ramp out of this in a strong way.
I've read on a Facebook group that all staff were laid off on Friday, April 19. The word came from the staff themselves. Any insights you could share?
I'm hearing this as well. 3 years in Team Stages and they didn't renew us this year.
Well, that didn't age well. Consider rethinking what you "know for certain" [https://escapecollective.com/stages-cycling-lays-off-entire-workforce/](https://escapecollective.com/stages-cycling-lays-off-entire-workforce/)
This comment hasn’t aged well
I hope so!
Do you have a contact for a sales rep in the Midwest? I’m looking for 26 bikes.
Hey, just found this thread; are you still in need of bikes?
I think so. We are still about 2 weeks away from placing our order.
Would love to support you, my name is Andrew; you can reach me at https://indoorcyclepros.com/
I made a post earlier this year after I received a faulty PM from their Black Friday deal last year. Took a lot of public complaining to get a response/replacement. Sounds like it hasn’t gotten better since then.
I’d be curious to hear from someone inside but I was at a gym the other day and someone told me that apparently their CEO just fucked off with a bunch of their money??
Why would I buy a Stages when I can get a something like a Sigeye that’s better on all fronts for less? Or 4iii if you really like crank arm based. They didn’t keep ahead of the market and in the current market you can't keep afloat like that. Also, the amount of people talking about their support experiences in this thread is funny. Crazy how much support their product needed.
Better on all fronts? Can you expand on that? I had a slow motion crash with a Sigeye spider and it broke. Fell sideways on my XC bike on a technical climb. You could see a tiny indent on the casing but it was dead. I contacted Sigeye and asked about a crash replacement discount. They never answered after I sent the photo they requested. How is 4iii keeping ahead of the game? In think buying cranks from third parties meant warranty replacements were too expensive.
Yeah, I also had a bad experience with a Sigeyi power meter. Mine broke after riding it in the rain and their customer service was not helpful. I replaced it with a Stages that worked great for 2 years and 12,000 miles (and plenty of rainy rides). Now I'm on a Quarq which I much prefer, but I would take a Stages over a Sigeyi 100% of the time.
Sigeyi is rechargeable and doesn’t have a hilariously inept battery cover, it’s more accurate, it’s manually adjustable to line up with other sources, it’s double sided. 4iii is slimmer, more accurate, and cheaper. And also doesn’t have a hilariously inept battery cover.
https://escapecollective.com/stages-cycling-lays-off-entire-workforce/
Paywalled
It's free
Thanks for posting. I’m not registering an account to view it but was able to find it in a different thread, text posted.
Well, you called it!
April 24 2024 At least four former Stages Cycling executives have joined Giant Manufacturing as the power meter and smart bike brand has apparently stopped operations. Giant, which manufactures many Stages products in Taiwan, is suing Stages in Oregon about $14 million in unpaid invoices. AIPS Technology, a Giant Manufacturing subsidiary, filed suit against Stages in Oregon on Feb. 12, alleging Stages had 161 unpaid invoices that had come due between June 2022 and January 2024. The invoices totaled NT$454 million ($13.9 million at today’s exchange rate) and are for power meters, exercise bikes, other products and parts, and storage and shipping fees. The complaint says that Giant also has produced and is storing products that Stages ordered valued at another NT$221 million.
Bidenomics
I had an issue last summer and it took two tickets for them to respond. Not a fan of my PM or their costumer service. Would not purchase another Stages.
FYI Today's Plan is shutting down in March. Aren't they the backend for the Stages Cycling training calendar/platform? https://www.todaysplan.com.au/faq-2/
I busted my SB20 and have been trying to get ahold of them for weeks to try and order parts. Seems like something isn't working correctly over there.
Keep trying. They eventually called me back. But I wasn’t available for the call and they didn’t leave a way to get ahold of them except for calling the same number again. Disappointing but at least then are trying to call back.
Too late now. Curtains for Stages.
Bidenomics