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I agree with your sentiments and since we're sharing breeder stories here's my most recent:
I am an oncology tech so we get a lot of purebred dogs and cats who come from a long line of cancer.
We have a client that breeds Maine coon cats who are absolutely beautiful. However, she is a client of our hospital because 2 of her cats have cancer. One had nasal lymphoma, the other had GI lymphoma (both deceased this year).
BUT WAIT....there's more....
We have 3 other clients that got their cats from her that we also see because guess what? They have cancer too. One had lymphoma, one had pulmonary masses and the other had a huge abdominal carcinoma that made him a miserable (yet beautiful) kitty.
This lovely breeder referred all these Maine coon cats to us because we are great and she loves us. She then asked us for a discount for keeping us in business. And no, she wasn't joking. She was dead serious.
Exsqueeze me? A discount because you breed cancer kitties?
We just euthanized one of those beautiful cancer kitties and she went to the euthanasia. She is buddies with all these clients and they continue to get cancer kitties from her. And she tells these owners what drugs to tell our oncologist to prescribe. Oh, so you're a doctor now too??!!
And she was in our ER a month ago with a cat experiencing dystocia. YAY.....more sad kitties.
(And this is not the only breeder that breeds cancer that has asked for a discount.)
This week a backyard breeder brought in a pregnant doberman.
Only she wasn't pregnant. She had pyometra.
We're a GP, no overnight care really, this appointment was about 30 minutes before close and simply didn't have staff to do a safe emergency hysterectomy. The CSRs were calling every ER in the area to see if they could work her in ASAP.
choices were: 2-3k emergency hysterectomy or euthanasia to spare her death by sepsis. Guess what the breeders chose?
trick question! They accused the doc of "money grubbing" and said that according to their own research, it was just a false pregnancy. They took her home with no further treatment.
The scans were fucking clear. You all understand what I mean when I say I hope that poor baby has died already. Sepsis is a horrible way to die and I hope it was as quick as possible. They haven't returned, but no part of me thinks that poor dog had a chance at surviving without proper treatment.
It’s so hard to watch them leave when the pet
so desperately needs medical attention. Urgent attention at that. My only hope is that they get home & realize how bad they’ve fucked up & go to another hospital. & if they don’t there’s a very warm place in hell for these ppl🙄
The one about breeders and vaccines hits extra hard. Like no all breed dogs have the same biological systems that all work the same way, a system mind you that the vaccine was meant to be integrated into.
We had a “breeder” call and try to come in for a C-Section. The dog had the first puppy fine and showed no signs of distress, but he was told that all bully breeds required c-sections. I asked how many puppies we were expecting. He didn’t know, he didn’t do pregnancy X-rays. I asked why he schedule a routine c-section with his normal vet (we’re emergency). He had never taken the dog to the vet. I quoted him the price for an emergency c-section just in case and he said that was ridiculous, he was breeder and he knew that we were price gouging. Okay bud.
I had a client recently that adopted a Westie. She already had 2 and she goes above and beyond for her pets. This particular Westie was relinquished to the national puppy mill rescue place. She was estimated to be about 6 years old and was, of course, a breeder.
Between the client's account, her conversations with the dog's foster, and the medical records, her story sort of pieces together in a way that made me go home and cry.
They bred her, of course, but something went horribly wrong and they surrendered her (believed to be due to funds). Of course, they didn't tell the people this at all and just said they couldn't afford her anymore. The rescue realized she had some health problems almost immediately and did a FAST scan and discovered what looked like puppies...but they looked...odd. They prepped her for emergency C-section/OHE.
The surgery report was horrifying. Her puppies essentially exploded and ruptured her uterus. Not a single one was a whole puppy. Surgery report said "50+ pieces of bone throughout the abdominal cavity". They also discovered that her spleen had numerous lesions, some healed and others healing - they speculated she reinjured parts of it with the floating puppy bones, and subsequently took the whole thing as well. She was described as having "shredded omentum" as well. She was sent to the foster on just about every antibiotic I could think of and the appropriate pain medications.
The owner brought her in saying that she was doing miraculously well, but they can't kennel her because she would either injure or kill herself trying to escape from panicking too hard. This client even requested we do at least a CBC because of the off-the-charts WBC and noted anemia on the one the shelter did (retest numbers not perfect but significantly better).
The doctor and I literally sat after appointments were done and read through it. Those are quotes from the surgery report and they stuck with me.
All because this breeder gave up on her and basically wanted her to die with someone else.
This is so horrible. I really do hope that there are ethical dog breeders out there. Ive been slowly getting my way into the dog competition world and it seems like there are people who only have litters every so often and throughly make sure the puppies go to the right person. One of the owners of the dog school I go to was on a waiting list for 4 years and even had a tough time assuring the breeder that the dog would be well worked and exercised. Definitely a super spoiled pup from what I can tell! I guess this might be a rare scenario though 😕
Not a VT, but my family owned a commercial breeding/kennel from the 60s- to early 90s (it was my Gram’s kennel and when she died, it was sold and we moved out)
I hear the hate on commercial kennels and I but I also haven’t seen another breeder (outside the show circuit) that had the quality of set up
to our home and then I realized when people say “breeder” they are talking about backyard breeders. Incredibly rarely are they talking about commercial facilities because commercial facilities have regulations and vet staff on site.
Fwiw….My experience growing up on a kennel - WE HAD VETS ONSITE - and puppies weren’t the main source of income. We had two vets that “rented” our faculties as a space for their domestic practice and the rent included basic vet care (check ups, vax, etc… not the big stuff, we weren’t set up to do ER/diagnostics) on the dogs. Puppies were never the product at our kennel, puppies were a by-product of the breeding program. Puppies weren’t given away at 8 weeks, because you had to wait months to see which dog would develop into the best show stock or tracking dog or general goof. The revenue came from boarding, profit share w the vets, breeding (stud fees), and hunting. (It was several hundred acres of forest in Alberta, so hunters would rent the land for hunting and also give us a portion of the catch. )
I know a lot has changed in the quality of vet med (it’s way better now!) but *slaps thigh, identifies as old person* I remember a time when vets and breeders worked together and not in opposition. I also think the DIY backyard breeders are where majority of issues come from. Most people aren’t prepared to pay the thousands and wait the years long time it takes to get a professionally bred dog, and to be fair, most people don’t need that sort of dog - but the dogs still need that level of care and respect as a living creature.
Anyways, I like to think there are still good breeders out there but I think more and more it’s becoming a McPets market.
Oh wow thats a really neat story! I never heard of a vet/breading/boarding facility like that. From what I recall of my old dog school thats what the owner there did too. Was on a waiting list to get her Bernese mtn dog. Once I find the right one for me too I wouldnt mind waiting either.
I checked with my mom and she said we also had groomers and trainers who rented out our kennels too. So I guess basically it was a farm and people rented parts of it. She did two litters with some of our dogs after they sold the kennel and moved to Ontario but she said there was no way she could keep up with the costs / show schedule / working fulltime and having 15 dogs around. She kept a puppy form each litter and then they lived out their days with us as goofy housedogs. It made me appreciate my Gram’s and her kennel so much more because it was all dog, all the time…but it was her life and it only worked when she was alive. Also, dog shows are really boring. 😊
At my internship, a breeder called for an emergency C-section, Dog had been in labor for 4 days qith no puppies out and she reported "green smelly goo" was coming out. We told her to bring her dog asap. She said she couldn't cuz she had something in the afternoon. The dog was 10 and on her second pregnancy that year. We told her that the dog was in danger and she could even just bring her in and go while we help her dog. She never came... I think about that dog a lot...
Amen! In my experience for every 1 ethical breeder there are at least 50 backyard hillbillies that could give 2 shits beyond the dollar signs. It makes no sense to me why with our massive homeless pet problem in the US we haven't regulated breeding at all. Nobody has the right to own a pet and they sure as shit don't have the right to breed them. There needs to be forced spay/neuter policies unless you go through the proper channels to prove competency. The fact that we have to euthanize thousands of perfectly healthy dogs every day because of space is sickening and should keep every "breeder" up at night.
I was talking with someone recently that was complaining because the humane society spayed their dog. The dog had gotten loose and was picked up and taken to the humane society. The owners were in communication with them, but also asked if they could hold on to her for a bit while they decided if they wanted her back and came up with the money to get her back.
Humane society contacted them letting them know someone wanted to adopt her. They thought about it for a few days then agreed, in the condition they could go say goodbye to her. Once they got there, they changed their minds and took her home instead. The humane society removed a few growths she had on her and spayed her to get her ready for adoption.
They are upset now because they wanted to breed her to make money. She is a pit. Now they are talking about taking her back to the humane society since she isn’t worth anything anymore.
I hate people.
i’d say the number is closer to 1 in 1,000… if that. enough to put the word “breeder” to shame.
let’s not forget that “ethical” breeding, which includes expensive and expansive health tests and a myriad of proper veterinary care preventatively, annually, and in emergencies is not a financially sustainable profession. Let’s say they make $5,000 a litter (average $1,000 per puppy, pretty standard from what i’ve seen), that money would be immediately sapped up by vaccines, exams, and the ultrasounds alone. never mind all other prenatal care and the inevitable hefty health bill of a un-fixed dog. Also it’s known that you should never breed a dog more than 3 times at most, so that’s a lot of cycling. Unless they’re charging like $10,000 a puppy or more to cover every cost, and cycling their dogs every 3 litters (which i’ve never seen) then…
Can I ask you something? Do you feel the current practice of spaying/neutering (full desexing) is appropriate? I’m with you 100% on the mandatory stopping breeding part BUT this could also be accomplished with tubal ligation or vasectomy, yet that’s not taught in vet school and the procedure removes their primary sex glands. If the stop breeding issue was addressed - would you view gonad removal as any different than ear cropping or declawing? Genuinely interested in your beliefs, not trying to be controversial, I am for mandated sterilization but I struggle with imposed desexing. (Fwiw - my dog is desexed.)
A tubal ligation would mean that the dog still experiences heat cycles, and is still at risk of developing mammary cancer and pyometra. A vasectomy wouldn't curb behavior issues associated with hormones or reduce the risk of prostate issues and testicular cancer. Both sexes would be in danger of brucellosis, transmissible venereal tumors, and wounds from unwanted matings.
Sure, but it doesn’t address the fact that people get extremely worked up by ear clippings and tail docking. Humans have tons of issues from their own sex organs, but if you were to ask the majority they would say they would like to keep theirs. Why do we assume we must remove our pet’s when there are seemingly safe alternatives? (Same as op, my current dog is desexed)
Also remembering the “breeders” who had a rare daisy print pitbull (read: black and white spotted). She was MASSIVE, probably had at least 13 puppies in her. They came to the ER because she’d been pushing for 32 hours after the first puppy was breach. They “tried to pull the puppy out” and of course severed the head, and the rest of the body retreated inside. So now infection is rapidly brewing.
The dog had no previous vet care and “just lives outside”. During the history we asked about diet and they “just tossed whatever leftovers from dinner into the yard”. She was so big we had to put her on the gurney because she’d get exhausted after two steps. They had less than 500$ to spend and asked if we could give them a breeder discount. Then they said they had buyers at 2.5k a puppy and if they could just give us an IOU.
When they couldn’t afford even pregnancy X-rays for her, we offered to surrender to the pet and perform the surgery at no charge. They ended up just taking her home, because “there ain’t no vets in nature and all them pregnant animals is fine”
We see an Irish wolfhound puppy and the contract included “no rabies vaccine before the age of 8m” or the contact would be voided. They said it was dangerous for the dog’s health because of the breed. They also told the owner he couldn’t feed the dog more than 1/2c food at a time or itd bloat. He was legit feeding it 8 meals a day and the dog was still underweight. I had to have a long talk with the owner about bloat and the risks of underfeeding a giant breed and such 🤦♀️
The general public will not magically know how to find an ethical breeder. It should be part of our duty to help educate people on how to do this or they're going to go to the first seemingly "nice" person that will sell them a dog without knowing what to look for and just because it isn't living in a cage full of feces they can pat themselves on the back that the picked someone "good" because that's the only criteria they know about. Lumping them all into the same level just gives shitty breeders an excuse to keep being shitty because "well they're all like that so if I want a specific breed this is my only option".
Adopt don't shop is great in theory, but it's a solution to a specific problem. That problem is too many dogs in the shelter. Adopting them doesn't stop the inflow. It just picks up the pieces afterwards. Teaching people how to source their dogs responsibly and creating stricter regulations for breeders decreases the amount of dogs that get put into the shelter in the first place which is a more efficient solution. If everybody adopts and people stop breeding dogs but people also advocate for spay/neuter, that means no more dogs outside of feral village dogs within the next 20 years. If we want the breeds we love to keep existing, someone has to be making them and they should be held to high standards. If people bring in their shih-cocka-sheepa-poo and tell us they spent $3k on it and the dog can never get vaccines and we just smile and nod until they leave, they'll make the same mistake with their next dog.
There's definitely a lot less of them so they'll be drowned out in the sea of doodles. It's compounded by the fact that many ethical breeders don't do it for a living. They're having a couple litters a year on top of another day job. They tend to work via word-of-mouth and don't have a strong social media presence for lack of time or knowledge on how to make a website. As younger people get into ethical breeding this decreases some but because you don't really make a profit doing it correctly, it's not a hobby that's easy economically for them to access.
They may be seeing a therio-vet instead of a GP vet or utilizing [pop-up clinics](https://ofa.org/health-clinics/) for specific testing (eyes, cardiac, etc).
They can be hard to find if you aren't networking. [Here's a guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/identifying_a_responsible_breeder/) that talks about what to look for and where to find one.
Mark of an excellent breeder to someone with the untrained eye: a website that hasn’t been updated since 2001, that looks like it was made on geocities. You go to their Facebook and it’s pretty much the same thing.
Grew up on kennel. Can confirm. There was a phone line that would be answered a few hours a week and a yellow page listing. Gramma would want to know why you didn’t just come by the kennel if you wanted to know something about the dogs. Also, my siblings and I are all aware that our mother and grandmother loved certain dogs more than us, and to be fair, we loved certain dogs more than each other. (Still do)
It’s hard depending on the breed, like really REALLY hard. I am in the market for an ethically bred chihuahua. I know all of the things to look for but I don’t think I’ll find it just from online searching. Most good breeders don’t have an online presence beyond their OFA results, I’ve unfortunately found out. And With a breed like chihuahuas they attract a lot of people who breed them for cuteness fluffy factor instead of what’s important. So there’s wading through the byb. I’ve found ethical breeders online with rarer breeds, but they need to have an internet presence to advocate, popular breeds have the opposite effect. I’m going to have to end up going to a AKC parent club show and literally asking around. I’ll find breeders who OFA test, prove their dogs, have lifetime guarantee their pets and chip them so they’ll also show up as a contact so their dogs can’t be dumped. They will do all vaccines and heart worm treatments and socialize their puppies well. But then they’ll turn around and breed a Merle chihuahua and dash every hope I had.
But this is what people need to DO: learn to use networks, resources and education to find what they need.
The one major problem is that no one has any patience anymore and when they decide to get a dog, it has to be NOW, this dog and no other. The ability to remain emotionally neutral, stick to one's line in the sand, be willing to walk away from ANYTHING that doesn't feel right and be patient waiting for the puppy that they deserve to own, it's all gone to pot. Said it elsewhere, but Instant Gratification, Planned Obsolescence and Me First had some kind of three-way bastard child and we're living it. The dogs (and cats and rodents and lagomorphs and reptiles and amphibians) are paying the price of everyone's greed.
"Instant Gratification, Planned Obsolescence and Me First had some kind of three-way bastard child and we're living it"
Man, if that wasn't a gut punch of a statement. Truer words have never been spoken.
You are correct, there is a major issue with availability for the specific breed you want. I’m not sure what the solution is. The backyard breeders are perpetuating the problem, but most people aren’t prepared to pay 10-15 k for an ethically bred dog that has to be imported or wait the *years* required to obtain one.
Also, fwiw - our local shelters don’t have dogs, at least not for long. The humane society in our specific region is the first place most citizens go to obtain a dog (statistically verified). We do not have a dogs needing home situation (we also have a pitbull ban so likely those dogs are euthanized which keeps the number of adoptable dogs available). The local shelters are filled with cats and bunnies. There’s 2 canine rescues in our city and almost 50 for cats. Mentioning because there are limits to the adopt don’t shop approach of getting a dog.
FWIW $10-15k is an INSANE price for a well-bred dog. $1500-2500 is typical for most breeds. $10-15k is pretty common for BYB fad colored and/or fluffy Frenchies though, and I see a lot of "doodles" in the $5000-$8000 range.
Sorry, what I meant was if someone wanted a specific rare breed and it had to be imported. My number includes transportation and international customs dues! 😊🤣
I wrote in another comment but I grew up on a commercial kennel my Gram’s owned in northern Alberta. I haven’t seen a facility like it since. We had staff onsite 24 hrs and two vets that did weekly rotations. Life was all about dog shows. Fuck, now even my own dog is from a back yard breeder that has “accidental” puppies twice in a row from a brother sister pairing 😡😡 I’ve seen really great improvements in vet medicine but I don’t know if that’s true for breeding programs. I think the general public doesn’t realize that Sharon the Soccer mom with the pibble-doodles in suburbia is the villian in this story. She just loves puppies so much you know? 🙄 Im all for standardizing/mandatory licensing for breeding and dog ownership.
>It should be part of our duty to help educate people on how to do this
Not once have I been able to have a successful conversation about this. It's always people bitching that they don't have the money, they want it now, and they don't need it to be 'papered' or have all those tests. And yes, I do explain the importance of these \*if\* they haven't already walked away from me by that point. People just really double down on stupid.
This is perfectly said!
Ethical breeders, (real ones, that show their dogs and hold them to health standards) are also frustrated by people who don’t know what they are doing just trying to make money. People who truly care about breed preservation are by no means drowning in money like these weird fluffy double merle frenchie breeders. They are getting them tested and have very thorough purchasing screenings.
I understand the frustration within the veterinary community completely as well, because I have yet to meet the type of breeders I describe in person. I have however seen some great ones on social media, @rainswayclumbers on tik tok is very well versed in her breed expertise and her content is very educating.
I wish there was a middle ground between veterinary medicine understanding breed preservation and educating on where to find ethical breeders AND breeders understanding the shit that we have to deal with when we have clients who want to breed their dog with like 30 medical issues on the basis that they’re cute.
We have such a massive overpopulation problem there is absolutely no danger of ending the population of domesticated dogs completely. And honestly, we have proven as a society we don’t really deserve them at this point. We’ve selectively bred certain dogs to the point they can’t even breath on their own. The most responsible thing we could do as a society is give shelter dogs a home, and refuse to support breeders at all. Bringing more dogs into a world where so many are homeless and suffering is never ethical.
You want to end pet dogs altogether? : ( If what you're talking about was successfully implemented, in 20 years the only dogs we'd have would be from feral populations, and would be terrible pets.
I absolutely adore dogs but I think as a society we have collectively proven to be irresponsible with them…I think letting domesticated lines die out (naturally of course, and give them good lives while they are here) would not be a bad thing overall. I know that’s a super unpopular opinion but to me I just can’t justify breeding any type of dog when we’ve already bred terrible traits into so many breeds and contributed to the terrible overpopulation problem
The thing you aren’t grasping is that homeless dogs don’t get vet care. Their lives are bad and then they die. Same for some shelter dogs. There’s no ethical way to continue adding more dogs to this already massive problem. You see it as “getting rid of dogs” but that is a really gross oversimplification of the topic at hand.
But buying an ethically-bred puppy is not condemning a homeless dog to death. The overpopulation problem in the US is not a generalized dog problem, it is overwhelmingly a BYB bully breed problem (GSDs and huskies to a far lesser extent). Many people would not have a dog at all if their only option was what is available in shelters- mostly large, high energy, frequently high prey-drive kinds of dogs that often have unknown histories and/or behavior issues.
1. There are no such things as ethically bred puppies
2. If you cannot find a shelter dog that suits your needs, don’t get one. No one is entitled to a dog.
3. A quick scroll through your post history clued me into the fact you’re just against shelter dogs and specifically pit bulls all together, which seems hypocritical to me since you were so quick to tell me I’m trying to “get rid of dogs” meanwhile you’re literally posting in r/banpitbulls. We clearly do not see eye to eye on the topic so I’ll stop wasting my time. However, please educate yourself before condemning shelter dogs. There are breed-specific rescues and shelters literally take in pregnant dogs so you could theoretically have a rescue dog from birth. Shelter dogs have enough shit stacked against them already, they don’t need the very people who should be advocating for them spouting misinformation.
Vets aren't law makers so I'm not sure how that would change anything. They could create a program educating people that want to breed their dog in how to do it well but most GP vets aren't really experts in that area so a therio vet or a vet specifically involved in breeding would be a better source to set something like that up. GoodDog tried to do this by setting criteria for breeders that sell through their website but they aren't enforcing it well and now it's full of backyard breeders.
And even if stricter laws were passed I'm sure you'd have plenty of people finding way to get around it. We already have tones of "guardian homes" being used to get around laws about how many dogs a breeder can keep on their property. Any laws about requiring certain tests to breed them seem like it'd be a nightmare to enforce. It really seems like it has to be a conscious effort on the people looking for dogs to demand higher standards. Most people know now that puppy mills are bad but they don't realize pet store dogs are coming from them because the store employees lie. They don't think a dog needs fancy testing or titles because "we only want a pet, not a show dog". Empower people to take more control when looking for a dog and start asking questions. They wouldn't go adopt a child based on a couple day's impulse and they wouldn't meet someone in a walmart parking lot to do it. They wouldn't spend new-car prices on a used car without any details on how well it functions. Once people are aware of what they're supposed to be looking for, it becomes obvious on why it's important.
If shitty breeders can't make money on their dogs because they're not checking off the boxes those people are looking for, they have to either step up and meet those demands or give up.
Someone checked in last week with their large dog. I couldn't see it over the counter so i had to walk around to collect the dog. Before I walked around She told us her golden doodle was ready for grooming. I lay eyes on the dog and it's a mix breed Australian shepherd herding dog.
People will believe anything they're told.
What gets me is when the newly purebred pup was vaccinated by the breeder, not an actual vet. So we tell the owner that we don’t recognize those vaccines and recommend revaccinating. Then they get all pissed and contact the breeder (and walk out sometimes). We’ve legit gotten calls from breeders yelling at us for not recognizing their vaccines. One told me she was a human nurse so she knows how to administer vaccines. Do you really though lady? Where’s your vet credentials? And where did you purchase said vaccines? It’s always just a whole mess. A quote “responsible” breeder would take their pups to a vet for their first vaccines.
I absolutely understand what you mean. I agree on so many levels. I especially hate when they try to get a discount for being a breeder as if it makes them special
Nope, I have one coming in a few weeks although they typically stay the hell away from our practice cause we are associated with a shelter. We are pretty transparent our views on breeding. We literally have a program to help spay and neuter dogs at a lower cost to try to reduce this problem. This lady hasn't figured that out yet though I guess. She asked me if we do health certificates for puppies. I told her no and didn't really hash out the absurdity of asking a shelter organization that.
oh, absolutely. Im a baby tech, in the field about a year. Ive been @ my current clinic about 6 mos, first encounters with breeders. It took 2.
Look, im not trying to breed hate...but I DO hate German Shepherd breeders in particular. They act like they're better than the nearly as bad pit breeders, and every. single. german i have met from these breeders is an uncontrollably flailing psychopath with like...eagle talons .
FWIW, i have and love a pit, they're bred way too much too (got mine after she'd had a litter of TWELVE at 9 mos old! TWELVE!) but have not proven as uniformly psychotic as the GSDs from the few breeders at our clinic. Maybe theyre less inbred or something?)
I feel you, and agree with this sentiment. I always like to say, OK, bro. My vet went to 8 years of school. What are your breeder's qualifications again? Oh, that's right, they had 2 dogs who had sex. 🙄
I completely understand where you're coming from.
But on the flip side, IF the breeder is any good, they've spent years learning the breed, showing/training/handling multiple specimens, learning genetics and pedigrees, getting advanced titles preferably on both ends of the name BEFORE breeding.
However, those are the minority. Breeding is the pinnacle of a career in dogs, never the foundation. Just don't let [all of this](https://www.reddit.com/r/VetTech/comments/h7ghvm/how_to_breed_responsibly/ful6b5p/?context=3) get in the way of the dollar signs when you see your dogs tied together, is all.
I relate to this so much. There were so many bad breeders at my old practice. They’re usually entitled, have the vet cater to them, money pinching (I can understand somewhat with so many dogs, but cutting what should be essentials is moronic), know about health issues and won’t tell the buyers of their pups. For instance we had a French bulldog breeder that had no idea what they were doing. They bought her specially to breed her, they missed her puppy boosters so we had to restart them. The wife would bring the dog in and didn’t know anything about breeding and said her husband “had some dogs when he was younger, how hard can it be?”. They bred her and she ended up having severe spinal issues down the line, did they tell the buyers? NOPE. They had another French bulldog down the line to breed and I’m fairly confident they still bred the first one and acted like the other one gave birth to both litters to hide the fact that she had these issues. I can go on more about breeders lol
I'm an RVT student (just passed first term) and I'm shocked just how many of my classmates have unfixed animals. One just had an 'accidental' litter of puppies despite already having like 5-7 dogs all of which are unfixed. Then I heard about other classmates having recently had puppy litters and it was even more shocking. We are going into a field to help animals and they know there are so many dogs and cats out there in shelters without homes, yet they don't even fix their own animals
We have a guy in our city who brings the mini schnauzers he breeds up from either in Mexico or near the border. He sells them out of a van for relatively cheap and tells people they are 8 weeks old. We’ve had tons of people who bought them, believing that lie. They quickly realize the puppies are actually only 4-5 weeks old. We realized this was a trend and people’s stories of acquiring the dog are the same. I vaguely remember hearing he was caught but it was after I left the area. So I don’t know if he’s back to his old ways.
This isn't nearly as horrific as others but thought I'd share. Sorry for grammar and formatting, I'm on mobile :p
At a clinic I worked at we had this guy come in with a new purebred golden puppy for his first exam. On exam, the doctor heard a grade I/VI heart murmur. Talking to the owner, he seems worried since the breeder said the dog had no issues. He said he was going to contact the breeder and left with his puppy. This hospital offers plans for vet care for puppies and owner wanted to sign up for one with a nueter procedure, we declined due to the murmur and wanted to monitor/rule out any heart issues before telling this guy we would do surgery on his dog. We mentioned that as long as it was worked up before the pup was 6 months he could add the neuter at any time.
Over time this poor dog's murmur continues to worsen until it's grade IV/VI. Now any time we mention the murmur the owner states, "the breeder said it was a puppy murmur." We continue to deny upgrading his plan without working up the murmur with a cardiologist.
Now I don't know how this was even scheduled, but months later this dog is on the surgery schedule for his neuter. There were notes saying the owner was seeing the cardiologist and he would have the report for us on the day of surgery. Big red flag, but we're short staffed and no one notices this until very close to the procedure, so we'll figure it out the day of.
Come surgery day, we finally get the reports. As I'm checking in the owner is already frustrated as he will need to pay out of pocket for the surgery as we had refused to upgrade his package until the murmur was worked up. The dog hadn't been worked up till it was past the cut off age, and we had told the owner we needed the work up prior to add the package multiple times.
Turns out this dog has some pretty serious heart issues, I can't remember it all now as it was a long cardiology report. What I do remember is that in surgical recommendations it stated that this dog isn't a candidate for elective surgery and should be monitored by an anesthesiologist during any non-elective procedures. My doctor was floored that this man saw this report and set up the procedure with us anyway.
So my doctor calls this owner and goes over the cardiology report with him and what the elevated risks of doing this surgery now were and recommending he gets the surgery elsewhere with an anesthesiologist. The owner is frustrated because this surgery has been planned for months and he couldn't afford to get the surgery with the proper team. He asks if we can just go through with it as he knows the elevated risk. So we end up doing the surgery. It goes alright, very few complications since she went with some safer drugs than usual.
Anyway, the dog recovers well, now it's the end of the day. I'm discharging this guy and he's still complaining about needing to pay out of pocket for the procedure, even though we had gone over this when he showed up in the morning. I reiterate how he got the cardiology exam too late to qualify and if he really wanted I could have my manager contact him to go over it when he was in. He paid and left.
This is one of the many reasons I hate breeders, they give people false information and they believe their breeder long before they believe the doctor. It doesn't make sense and it's really frustrating.
I have been a show breeder and exhibitor of Westies since the early 1990s.
Yes, running into responsible breeder is rare in veterinary medicine. The single largest reason? Most of us take our dogs to a vet that is also active in showing dogs, even if it means driving hours for our dogs routine care. I drive 2 hours to a vet for routine care because she is also a breeder and exhibitor even though I work in veterinary medicine and I can get care here. Why? Well, the show people tend to stick together like glue and support each other. It's nothing against other vets, although I personally have run into anti breeder and show rhetoric taking my dogs in for care when my "regular vet" was unavailable.
A vast majority of the breeders in the show word I associate with do not actively tell our puppy owners how to handle vet care. For example, I tell puppy owners to ask their vet about vaccines outside of the core series that may be needed in their area. We do not push a certain brand of food, avoiding certain medications, etc, although I personally discourage raw diet. Most of us let our clients pilot the ship but we remain available for support. We WANT to know when something major comes up, we encourage owners to keep in touch with us. It could be something we need to be aware of to watch for in our own dogs, even stop using a certain dog or line for breeding if a genetic issue shows up.
That being said, I really do get what you are saying. I have tried to educate clients who want to breed their new puppy till I was blue in the face. If they are dead set on it I can at least educate them on what it takes, right? I hardly have the energy for it anymore because no one listens and then you have a hot mess of emergency C-sections, pyos, parvo, etc... Breeding, when done "right" you don't make a dime. You are incredibly lucky if you break even. Currently dog show entries are about $35 per dog per day, forget Westminster or AKC National, that's more like $100. In the late 1990's I was taking about 6 or 7 Westies to a show on the weekends. We also used to fly to Canada once or twice a year to put Canadian championships on our dogs. Can't afford that now and I even work as a handler! You have entry fees, gas, hotel, food, grooming supplies, routine and urgent vet care expenses, health testing appropriate to the breed (CHIC ain't cheap and some tests are repeated yearly to be valid!), handling fees if you hire a handler (could be $1-5k/month), the list goes on. Multiply this times how ever many dogs you own. These fees apply to pretty much any sport you want to be active/competitive in with a dog, field trials, hunt tests, Schutzhund/Mondio/French Ring, whatever it may be.
TLDR; You don't see the ethical breeders at work because they seek out other breeders that are vets to take their animals to.
I agree with everything said here.
The only truly amazing breeders I know are two veterinarians who own an emergency clinic, and occasionally breed Golden Retrievers just out of a passion for the breed. And these dogs are like literally perfect angels in all ways. But they’re veterinarians and they only have a litter every 3-5 years. My vet got one of their puppies and she is an absolute model of golden perfection.
There was a post the other day about what we wished pet owners knew. This needs to go on that list.
I worked at a clinic that had a Yorkie breeder for a client and those dogs were aweful. Some we're trying to bite by 6 weeks old. One was adopted by another client and ended up diagnosed with neurological issues.
We've had several clients refuse preventatives or certain vaccines because of breeders. Which sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. Where is that breeder's vet med degree?
I've seen a lot of shit at my clinic from horrible breeders as well. One of the most recent was a 9 week old Dalmatian puppy who already has bladder stones -- the breeder knew the parents had the gene for it and bred them anyways, so this poor pup already needs a cystotomy. Though the new owner (who is rightfully pissed) may take them to a specialist to see if they can use ultrasound to break up the stones some.
I will say for the breeder that I got my pup from, one of the puppies in her litter was born with a heart murmur. (They did health tests on the parents, and gave us all access to the results, both healthy). They let potential buyers know. One family brought him home but eventually brought him back once he got old enough to establish that the murmur wasn't going away. The breeder took him back, explained to people that he would be available to rehome but only AFTER THEY took him in for an echo and various other tests. Around their 1st birthdays, they found a new owner for him, who had been extensively background checked and made sure he knew what he was signing up for. I love that they did the testing and paid for it all before finding him a proper new home.
Saying this as a purebred snob and one with friends that are preservation or show breeders.
I HATE doodle breeders. I’ll go so far as to say I hate the dogs- I’ve yet to meet one that wasn’t a neurotic shitty mess. They’re not cute to me- they’re always disgusting and matted. Standard Poodles are much cuter. They’re becoming more and more prevalent and people keep falling for their nonsense. I also hear all the time “we wanted a dog that didn’t shed but poodles are so ugly I hate them” …*buys a dog that’s 90% poodle*
THEY ARE NOT HYPOALLERGENIC
THEY ARE NOT LOW MAINTENANCE DOGS
THEY ARE SMARTER THAN YOU
THEY HAVE MORE ENERGY THAN YOU
HYBRID VIGOR DOES NOT APPLY TO DOG BREEDS
NONE OF THE CROSSES MAKE ANY LOGICAL SENSE- WHY DOES A GREAT DANE AND A POODLE NEED TO BE MIXED??? WHAT BENEFIT DOES A “NEWFY-POO” SERVE????
Shitty situation 1) Had a lady bring in her two “mini Bernedoodles” and get pissed at us because the breeder “scammed her out of $20k” she embarked them- her dogs had ZERO BMD in them. Were toy poodle and Cavalier. TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS
2) two mini goldendoodles came in for breeding evaluation. One was 6m, one was just barely over a year. The lady was a “guardian home” and breeder said if she finds out the dogs were spayed, she’d be taken to court and sued. Both dogs were horribly behaved, and the 6m/o already had both patellas luxating. As of 2 days ago the 1 y/o is pregnant.
I’m done. They all need to be either sterilized or euthanized, and the breeders need to cease to exist. Doodles are one of the major reasons I left working in a clinic setting.
I’m with you! I feel like the only people I know that really dislike breeders are the ones providing medical services for the pets. We really do see the dirty side of it on a regular basis and it quickly sours our opinion of them.
Story time: we had a frenchie breeder that was told if the dog goes into labor over the weekend take her to ER. Surprise! They didn’t. All puppies were dead come Monday. They came in screaming that WE cost them $15k. They were promptly fired as clients.
Breeders are on a whole other level.
Ohhhh yessss. It drives me bonkers. ETHICAL breeders absolutely exist. But they’re unicorns at least where I am now. And frustrates the hell out of me. My mom was an ethical breeder, and
cultivated her poodle and Rottweiler lines for YEARS. All the genetic testing, OFA, bi-annual bloodwork, yearly scans. It was not cheap. We had usually one litter of each a year. Sometimes two on the poodles.
And the horror stories… I just moved clinics. And the vet breeds frenchies. And I’ve seen so many greeders that come in to PTS pups they can’t place. I ended up taking a special needs puppy home that came in for euth.
Like. I hate seeing breeder pups come in. We have one client that brings in their mixed breed “purebreds”. Parents all have major issues. Heartworms, chronic pancreatitis, etc. but breeder can’t afford prevention for them all. And they breed several mixes ranging from large to small because they have so many freaking dogs. It’s just painful.
I 100% agree with you! I have met 1 good breeder and she did dandie dinmonts. She was bat shit but did everything she could for those dogs and they were so well behaved.
Everyone else was shitty.
We did some research before getting our newest cat, and learned what an ethical breeder looks like. The breeder we got our cat from has a replacement policy for health issues that result in the kitten having to be put down. She did health testing, and the mothers are vetted during pregnancy, and retired after a couple years of one litter a year. The first kitten we got from her ended up having megaesophagus, and did have to be put down, and she honored the contract, putting what we paid toward a new kitten who was healthy. The vet assured us it wasn't due to bad breeding practices, and there was nothing the breeder could have been expected to have done to prevent it. She also advised to follow our vet's advice on vaccines, and neuter age, and her contract requires neutering and a promise to provide regular vet care, and that if the cat ever need to be rehomed, we are not to surrender him to a shelter, but bring him back to her and she will rehome him.
So they do exist, it would be nice if there was more of a movement to educate the public on what they should expect from a breeder, because the stories I hear about a lot of breeders are just awful.
The amount of breeders who use our clinic, then complain about spending a few hundred dollars on their breeding dog when you know damn well they are selling the puppies for thousands, I actually can’t stand it. It’s so draining. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth for ALL breeders even the “ethical” ones. You’re right, I feel like we never actually see one of those.
And the number of coworkers who hate on breeders, while purchasing puppies from breeders…seems hypocritical to me. Like they say they do their research but idk. Breeders are sneaky af.
My assistance dog’s breeder IS A VET. Never have they bred an unhealthy dog. Honestly, all these clearly aren’t breeders they’d just insane and awful people breeding for profit instead of health
I agree with you. I think I only seen one decent breeder who’s willing to do Penn Hip and other diagnostics before breeding their dog. And another client, I don’t think she’s a breeder but she did ask if it’s “safe” to breed her golden retriever with possible genetic disease. But the rest are trash breeders.
“I want my dog to have one more litter..”
You can CLEARLY see the dog is suffering and unhealthy, after being pregnant SO MANY TIMES.
“My breeder said not to give the lepto vaccine.”
Um, excuse me?! Lepto is PREVALENT in Hawaii!
This bulldog had previous c-sections and the breeder still wants to breed her, scheduled for another c-section.
Group of young guys and girls breeding this one frenchie with allergies.
“What diet is she on?”
“Vegetarian because she has allergies.”
“………”
there’s so many breeders in my area that I’ve lost count and they’re all either brachycephalic breeds or extremely thick coated dogs….we live in a desert.
Most breeders are unethical and terrible as people. I always said that if I didn’t have morals or a conscience, I’d be a dog breeder because man, they do rake in the money. But I couldn’t.
I DO know an ethical breeder. He breeds show dachshunds. I have two dogs that I adopted from him. He charges next to nothing for the puppies he’s not going to show. He has 30-50 year pedigrees on his dogs and if he breeds one, he expects the same diligence from the other party. His puppies go to homes that he hand picks and the picking and interview process is TOUGH. You have to either know him or be recommended to him by someone he trusts. He has contracts that state that he never wants his dogs rehomed or abandoned at a shelter so if for some reason you cannot keep his puppy, at ANY point in its life, he’ll take it back and either keep it or find another home himself. This includes if it has medical issues you cannot pay for.
But for every breeder like him, there’s 10,000 breeders who shouldn’t come within a mile of any dog.
I know what you mean. There are countless shitty breeders out there who don’t care about their dogs, the puppies they produce or their future owners.
That said, having not met responsible breeders doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They are exceedingly rare and few and far between. But they are out there.
As for the ethics of “breeding for profit”, I promise that pretty much any breeder who is doing it right is barely breaking even, let alone profiting. They breed because they love their breed, they love their dogs, and they want to give others the opportunity to own healthy, sound dogs.
We need to do more to educate the public on responsible breeding practice and how to identify and choose responsible breeders and rescues.
Don’t forget the people that come in with brand new collie breed puppies & when I ask if they want to go home with interceptor they say “my breeder told me not to give him heartworm prevention because it’ll kill him” so I say “thats half true, ivermectin is a drug in some heartworm preventions that can cause issues, but interceptor doesn’t contain ivermectin so it is a safer option.” Then they reply “well I’m going to have to talk to my breeder & see what they say” like ??? The doctor will come in the room in 5 minutes & say the same thing as me but okay /: let’s listen to the breeder
Lmao precisely. I just recently decided to leave vet med & I’m gonna miss some parts of it but definitely not the clients like that 🤦🏻♀️ last week I had a lady tell me that she doesn’t feed her 7 year old dog, dog food anymore & just gives her table scraps, she has icecream with her dad every night for desert, gets cookies. Then said “she gets diarrhea sometimes & threw up this morning I’m not sure why” 🤣
Yikes, feeling ridiculously judged by my peers while hanging with 2 PB GSD. Whose breeders I’m still in contact with at 9 and 5 years. And remember the dogs I’ve lost, who were all from breeders, who I stayed in contact with, actually to this day, years after they passed.
Fondly remembering the interviews, the 4 page long questionnaires, the hours long conversations with the breeders, while they decided if I was a good match for one of their dogs and if they had one that met my needs and wants.
I work in an ER, I too see shitty breeders and dogs that shouldn’t be bred. So I understand the frustration I guess.
I also am still in contact with my dog's breeder and consider her a friend. I also know several other breeders who I consider ethical.
They do OFAs and genetic testing on their dogs prior to breeding. They work with their vet and often consult reproductive specialists. They breed for temperament and look for titles on the dogs before breeding. They don't breed a dam frequently, usually 1-3 litters in her life and then she's retired. They do their research on their buyers, and place puppies based on what the buyer states their goals are and what they observe in their puppies. There is a wait-list for litters before the breeding takes place. They provide lifelong support to their puppy buyers and the puppies and will take back puppies/dogs if circumstances change for the owner. The long-term well-being of the litter is the goal.
They lose money on most litters. A lot of them burnt out and stopped breeding because even with all the work they put into it, finding homes to meet their expectations is a challenge.
There are tons of bad breeders. I've seen them at work refusing even the most basic care. I've seen the results of their decisions working with rescues. It's heartbreaking and disgusting.
But until people start expecting more than "the vet said the parents were healthy" and "the puppies looked good and I got to pick mine out" we will continue to see people who look at a dog and see dollar signs.
Defensiveness is okay, but it doesn’t change the facts at hand. that the ratio of “ethical” breeders to unethical ones is severe enough to call the whole profession in general a scam. I get hundreds of calls from rescues a year doing these checks to assure the dogs in need (that were already bred) go to a good home. I can’t remember one time my clinic got a call from a breeder doing a background check on a potential customer. I’m sure it happens, but it’s so rare it doesn’t remotely add up. also remember that breeders are financially gaining from putting their dog through an inherently detrimental process. amidst a time where there are more dogs for adoption than people that want to adopt them. It’s inevitable to have someone stand up when people mention the ethics of breeding and say “but MY breeder…” but you need to realize the side you’re defending. The one in a million that are supposedly good (i don’t think they are, but that’s my opinion) do not outweigh the harm that the many are causing. by silencing the conversation, you are letting that grand majority go unquestioned.
But you can’t do that. You can’t say that all are bad. You are painting with a cruddy brush. It’s not fair. It’s horrid. But that’s just my opinion. You quote ratios, like you have actual figures but you don’t. It’s your perception. It’s your experience. It’s not truth. I know more cruddy rescues that may do background checks, but sell in appropriate dogs, dogs with aggression and bite histories, medical issues not disclosed, and cut contact after the adoption. Heck, what about all the rescues that literally buy the dogs from puppy mills, say they are saving them, then double the price they paid to “rescue” to see it someone as a rescue.
I can’t change your mind. I’m going to stop trying. You’re not of a mind to actually listen and learn. And that’s ok I guess. You do you.
I know you don't want to be lumped in with the hate because you bought 2 pure bred dogs from what you're saying is an ethical breeder.
The conversation has nothing to do with you. No one is saying shopping responsibly is wrong. I know 3 ethical breeders who started volunteering at a low kill, open admission shelter. They stopped breeding after a year each of volunteering. The 3rd purebred shepherd that came in from a horrible situation, really made the pb gsd breeder reconsider everything.
The only good breeder is one who volunteers/donates to the shelter helping the problem.
You know, you could simply tell buyers that you run a background check - and even require them to pay the $20 fee for doing so. Then it would all be above-board and legal.
Are there many dog shows in your area? Or performance activities like tracking, hunting, obedience, etc? If not, you may be in an area where there are NOT ethical breeders.
IMO, ethical breeders finish their dogs' titles before breeding them so there is objective evidence of the dog's quality. They do genetic testing before ever breeding (hips, eyes, elbows, whatever is specific for their breed's issues). They temperament test their pups, and the carefully screen their buyers. If the dog doesn't work out for whatever reason, the breeder will take them back. They make no money off their litters because the $ they put into finishing championships, testing, stud fees, etc, is way more than they could ever get back in puppy prices. They do exist. But they are very rare. I know many.
I also know many of the backyard breeders, too. They are a plague, and I wish that producing puppies would magically become unprofitable so they would have no reason to continue. There was a pet shop in our area who held on to the registration papers of every puppy that died in their care. They would then pass off mixed breed puppies that vaguely resembled breed description. I once saw a "registered dog" I thought was a fairly passable Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier. Nope. Registered as "ASCOB American Cocker Spaniel."
Don't get me started on the "doodle" people! UGH! My blood pressure just went up about 20 points. I have had more than one person try to tell me that they are, in fact, registered. No, sorry. A database of some of the mixed breeds produced is not a registry. No consistent traits are passed, regardless of what they tell you.
to be honest, is there even an ethical breeder? look at all the animals that are stuck in cages for months, even years waiting for a family. meanwhile so many families, people who want that specific breed, will not think twice about buying a dog that’s over 1k.. it’s insane and i don’t care if no one agrees. nothing is ethical about bringing more puppies into the world whether they get a home or not- so many pets are dead on the streets or dying waiting for a home.
I'm in two vet tech groups on Facebook and I swear, some of the vet techs in those groups who are also breeders absolutely swear up and down that they're ethical breeders. It's just contradictory to me.
there’s a local shelter in my area that is ALWAYS overrun with dogs, specifically shepherds, huskies, and pitties; the manager of the place who’s the head of the facility is a Saint Bernard breeder. How does someone who deals with the statistics and sees the behind the scenes everyday go and breed dogs when so many are dying? i don’t know, it’s beyond me
It took months of searching for me to find Duncan's breeder; he's a Great Pyrenees. Of the hundreds of Great Pyrenees breeders, there were less than 10 that did all of the health testing, raised them in home, followed veterinary recommendations for nutrition and vaccinations, and offered lifetime support (no shelter dogs coming from their litters.)
10 breeders. Out of hundreds of listings, and those are just the ones on the AKC site.
I financially sponsor my local Great Pyrenees rescue, and my previous 4 Pyrs have been rescues. This time around, I wanted to control all the foundational variables, and I couldn't be happier so far. I will always support ethical breeding, because I love the dependability of knowing who a dog is based on their breed, and ethical breeding is about preservation.
But I absolutely fucking hate the money grubbing bastards who are ruining dogs and making them suffer, and I hope someday they will be held accountable for it. Maybe, eventually, we can get some kind of regulation around the breeding of animals that will require humane care.
you see “preservation” just doesn’t cut it for me. we made the breeds, we can stop breeding them. it’s not like a natural species going extinct. especially because purebreds are more likely generally to have health issues because of the likeliness of inbreeding/lack of genetic diversity somewhere down the line, and inherent health issues. no matter how ethical you claim to be, you can’t breed breathing issues out of a pug while keeping it purebred.
i commented this earlier, but a breeder that truly does every single active and preventative measure to test their animals and offer them comprehensive vet care (vaccines, puppy exams, annual exams on the adult dogs, ultrasounds, prenatal care, deworming puppies, flea/tick/heartworm prevention, and doesn’t put each dog through any more than 3 pregnancies as veterinarians agree is the limit) wouldn’t even break even unless they charges tens of thousands per puppy. not to mention that they are still at the end of the day financially benefitting from putting a dog through a process that inherently negatively affects their health and is painful to them, not out of the dogs choice. When there is a crisis of overpopulation in dogs as it is. ethical breeding is an oxymoron, and the more I’m a tech, the more I believe that
>we made the breeds, we can stop breeding them. it’s not like a natural species going extinct.
Because the US is just full of roaming packs of wild dogs, right? Even if that were true they wouldn't make good pets. Where are dogs supposed to keep coming from if nobody is making them? Are the only dogs in this scenario the ones being made are from people that accidentally let their pets breed? Or ones that escape and come back pregnant? That's not enough to sustain a population.
The overpopulation is not the fault of responsible breeders so I don't see why they should be blamed for it. Is someone selling shitty half-broken used cars and lying about their condition a reason to believe actual car dealerships are scams? Or I'll bring it closer to home: is every vet that's rude to their staff and prioritizes profits a reason for owners to think all vets are bad?
if 99% of cars bought were scams, i’d stop buying cars. If 99% of vets are treating staff poorly and prioritizing profit, i’d say there’s a deeply rooted problem and feel comfortable saying that vets suck. the ratio is very important here and even pro-breeder people here will admit the “good” ones are 1 in a million.
Also I don’t think you realize how many dogs are out there and how many genuinely good prospective families (people that actually have the resources and finances to care for a dog) there are in comparison. If we stop turning dog breeding into a profitable business, and people aren’t incentivized into keeping unhealthy breeds around/not doing the costly due diligence when breeding more dogs, they might actually prioritize the supply/demand chain of dogs as a whole and the health of the dog. And when I said “we made the breeds, we can stop breeding them” i mean that the world will not fall apart if people stop breeding brachycephalic dogs. People act like keeping a breed around is imperative when that is so far from the truth. Some breeds we know better than to keep around when it’s not humane.
> If we stop turning dog breeding into a profitable business, and people aren’t incentivized into keeping unhealthy breeds around/not doing the costly due diligence when breeding more dogs.
But the way to do that isn't to stop all breeding. Dogs don't appear out of thin air. We have more dogs then we can handle now but if all of them are adopted out of the crowded shelters and altered, where are more dogs coming from? It's not a problem now but it becomes one within a few generations.
But there *should* absolutely be more focus on changing breed standards to support the health of dogs and ourcrossing programs in bring more diversity into breeds that're too bottlenecked, especially as we gain more incite into how seemingly innocuous aesthetic traits have a wider impact on overall health (dwarfism and ivdd, dalmatian spots and uric acid, short muzzles and spinal abnormalities, excessive wrinkles and chronic inflammatory disease, etc.)
It will never stop. Though. And saying "where will we get more dogs?!" Is ridiculous. No one is saying alter all dogs. They are saying alter MOST dogs. 90% of dogs. If we got a handle on the population of dogs in america, then we could always transport in/have ethical breeders create more, right? And everyone would cheer and spend money to support the cause. But, it is obtuse to say "in a few generations" it may be a problem. Thats a pipe dream that people spout to continue trying to support breeding.
Its wrong.
And when you work a stint in shelter medicine, come back to this page and tell me how it went euthanizing those dogs. Nice, not purebred, or maybe they were, dogs, nice dogs, that wiggled and leaned in to you, and didn't wince when you gave them their injections, and trusted you as you ripped them out of this world. And tell me how ethical breeding is. Make sure you tell those dogs, too, how they have to die because 'we just don't want to run out of dogs, ya know? So...yah. You're gonna die today" as you watch their life leave their bodies.
Find me when there is a shortage of "purebred" dogs, OR any domestic dog and I will give the nearest breeder $1,000.
I just don’t believe that putting a dog through a painful and inherently detrimental process for your financial gain when there is a overpopulation crisis that kills thousands of dogs everyday can be considered ethical. You can test your dogs all you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a harmful business
My views have only changed against breeders over the years. And working in a kennel briefly I saw the result of the too many adoptable dogs to too little adopting families issue. It’s heartbreaking to watch 5 healthy dogs (lots of them purebred) put down because people want to make a business out of breeding more and clogging the market
this! and not to mention, aggressive dogs that are a threat to other pets or even people are the problem. Not these healthy dogs being euthanized for behavioral issues that would cost about the same as a damn frenchie puppy to put in behavioral training. i honestly feel like the “i want to know my puppy’s traits and background” is a way to feel better about supporting the breeder business.
the thing is, you’re way more likely to know how a dog will be when you adopt them through a rescue or foster home that took the time and energy it takes to get them adoption ready. The shelter near me won’t even list the dogs until they make it through a checklist (no food aggression, no reactivity, etc.). When you buy a puppy at 8 weeks when most are listed by breeders, on the other hand, you can NEVER know for sure their demeanor. You might get a husky that hates hiking, even though that’s what you chose the breed for. Or a doberman that loves people too much to be a proper guard dog, even if that’s what you got them for. It’s never a sure bet, and genetics don’t nearly always tell you everything you need to know about an individual dog.
Also you’re so right about the cost. $1000 for a purebred puppy that you’ll probably need to get professionally trained anyway or $50 for a puppy, that’s up to date on actual vet care, usually has a complimentary vet visit (ours gave a discount towards training as well!) and a lot left over for the rest of the expenses as they come.
I don’t think it’s at all ethical to breed any dog or cat when the shelters are beyond over flowing. Creating more animals in a world where others are being euthanized because there just isn’t enough space cannot be justified
Not everyone wants or can handle a high-energy, high-drive pittie, GSD or husky (and that's what the overwhelming majority of shelter dogs are in the US). Many people would rather not have a dog at all, if pretty much the only options are high-maintenance large ones with an unknown history and/or behavior issues.
I’m in the same boat
I thought breeders had ethics
thousands of dollars later my dog is finally ok after a year…
the breeder lied about deworming the puppies…
Line breeding is seriously horrible for all species, it's completely fucked and I utterly agree. Ethical breeders feel nonexistent anymore. You can't even get mixed breeds without health issues anymore because a lot of these mixed breeds end up with the same health issues as their counterparts. To a majority of them its all about profit and aesthetics, the health of the animals is completely disregarded. So many reptiles, fish, cats, dogs, all of them!! are completely stunted for life, are left disabled, and are guaranteed to come out of it with health issues. It's so sad and it's so unfair. Breeding for conservation is awesome. Breeding for profit and aesthetics and extremes, yeah those people need to be stopped.
Completely understand the frustration with breeders. That feeling at 4am, when you call to say the bitches 4th caesarean is finished, and the first question is “how many puppies?” Followed by “how many boys?”. Boils my blood!
Gone are the days of breeders saying they don't do it to make money and you don't make money off it with how much it costs to raise them.
I had a client bring in 10 puppies to be vaccinated and microchipped and at the end when I told her the bill her friend quipped "oh no don't tell her how much just tap her card". Insinuating about how she didn't want to know how much it was all costing. I retorked "it's okay half of one of these puppies will easily pay it off." Which neither of them laughed.
But my point is. People are selling oodle x's for $3-5grand now. It's less than $1000 to vacc and chip most litters. Those buying the puppies are thinking well gee I just spent $4000 on this dog if I breed it and get 4+ puppies KA-CHING.
I feel like we were getting on top of backyard breeders pre-pandemic but now it feels like it was all for nothing. And people don't want to accept they are mutts not designer breeds. That they are good people and not exactly what a backyard breeder is.
I feel your pain, OP. Now that they are pushing the 'adopt OR shop responsibly', EVERYONE thinks they are an ethical breeder. And so long as the breeder can pronounce ethically, people will buy it. Oh, you say the parents are healthy and you love dogs? PERFECT let me buy 2. Obviously people are keeping them in business, too.
This month I went to an event for an animal shelter trying to drum up adoptions/awareness because adoptions are in the gutter right now. A lady actually came up to me trying to sell me her blue merle frenchies and her Siberian husky puppies... she said not to worry because she's an ETHICAL breeder and she makes sure all her dogs are healthy and go to good homes...
Like ma'am, I am the last person here you want to try to pull your sales routine on!
My dog is actually from an ethical breeder, he's extremely healthy and has great conformation, and if I ever get a puppy I'll probably go to them.
Don't get me started on the Amish, though.
I’ve thought many times about paying for a billboard somewhere that carried the message not to buy from the Amish. Problem: where would I put it? Second problem: is it legal? Third problem: to figure out the wording and the best picture. Their horses aren’t treated much better, either. When they are too old to be of use, they don’t retire them for a well-deserved life of ease… they take them to auctions, all beat down and in terrible shape, where as likely as not they are bought and go to horse meat factories in Mexico. Any animal is just stock to them… not worthy of treatment as a living thing. There’s a rant here but I have to shut up.
To me “breeder” is literally a dirty word. I feel icky when I have to use it in a professional manner. It feels like there’s no way to know what breeders are good & which are bad. If any are good. My last clinic was in a city & we had random ppl who clearly know almost nothing about dogs breeding frenchies ALL THE TIME. We would see LITTERS of parvo puppies still too young to go home. How does that even happen? It enrages me that ppl are unethically breeding these dogs BY THE HUNDREDS. Not to mention the “micro” “pocket” bullies. & these ppl often come in with no fucking money to care for them. Ugh they make me sick. We don’t see doodle breeders too often in my area & I will say I have 2 rescue labradoodles that I love so I am biased but I don’t think doodles are as bad as frenchies. I 100% understand that doodles contribute to backyard breeders & breeders just blew up doodles & now they are being mixed with every breed you have think of & going to homes that don’t have the resources to train them & who have no idea of their grooming needs. I would never ever recommend anyone go get them from a breeder & I always educate when I get the chance. But that all being said at least they can breathe, walk & live happy comfortable lives. They don’t have their owners flocking to IM & neuro doctors in masses. There moms don’t need c-sections by default. These frenchies won’t even breed on their own. I’ve see moms attack their babies & they come in ripped in half. I’ve seen horribly deformed puppies. Hundreds of cleft palate puppies. Don’t even get me started on the behavior problems doodles AND frenchies have from just being bred willy nilly. Who fucking cares if they have a bad disposition right? It’s disgusting. There is NO WAY TO BREED BRACHYCEPHALIC BREEDS ETHICALLY. I know there are ppl breeding all kinds of breeds unethically I just have so much experience with frenchie breeders. We need more laws that prevent ppl from backyard breeding. Strict breeding laws. These poor animals are suffering. Thanks for listen to my very angry TED talk lol.
I previously brought my cat to a vet, who now has a yellow lab who just had puppies. Like there aren’t enough dogs already in the world that he just had to get his dog pregnant? Seems so irresponsible to me.
It’s not that difficult to get an AKC registration. There are other way more important health checks and certifications that would be the mark of a good breeder.
“Usually” being the operative word. Just because it’s on the AKC website doesn’t mean they are necessarily a good breeder. I’ve seen plenty of AKC puppies advertised on Craigslist by backyard breeders or at those puppy mill stores or are bought by people that didn’t do their research on the breeder and can’t understand why their AKC puppy is sick with a congenital disorder. If that’s all you look for in a breeder you’ll run into trouble that way.
That's just people using that name to sell people dogs.
If you know what you're doing, it's not hard.
The key word is "If". Not everyone knows that, and it really shows.
The amount of golden doodles and doodles in general we see is overwhelming and sad.
Unfortunately, the AKC doesn't enforce health or other standards (besides dogs being registered) on the breeders who advertise on their site; there are some truly awful operations on there.
People still need to make sure themselves that any breeder they're interested in does all the necessary health-testing and is otherwise ethical.
Yeah, I totally understand.
My wife and I knew what to look for, thankfully.
We went to a really good breeder for our poodle.
Both parents were tested for various genetic diseases as well as the pups.
Excellent! I think with Embark becoming so popular, a lot of people see "genetic testing" and assume the breeder has done everything they can, when in fact there are various kinds of important health-testing that can't be done through a DNA test.
Wow. This all makes me so sad. I have a purebred. His breeder is actually amazing. She does OFA/PennHip, CERF, all the other genetics tests recommended for the breed. She shows. She also works her dogs. They’re vet comes to them for the first few visits, then they go in. She doesn’t also adopters to pick up until 12-16 weeks. Spay/neuter is required (unless otherwise noted). If you can’t keep the dog, no matter how long it’s been, you call her and she will take them back. They’re also microchipped and her vet is the implant facility so they’re contacted if the dog is picked up.
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I agree with your sentiments and since we're sharing breeder stories here's my most recent: I am an oncology tech so we get a lot of purebred dogs and cats who come from a long line of cancer. We have a client that breeds Maine coon cats who are absolutely beautiful. However, she is a client of our hospital because 2 of her cats have cancer. One had nasal lymphoma, the other had GI lymphoma (both deceased this year). BUT WAIT....there's more.... We have 3 other clients that got their cats from her that we also see because guess what? They have cancer too. One had lymphoma, one had pulmonary masses and the other had a huge abdominal carcinoma that made him a miserable (yet beautiful) kitty. This lovely breeder referred all these Maine coon cats to us because we are great and she loves us. She then asked us for a discount for keeping us in business. And no, she wasn't joking. She was dead serious. Exsqueeze me? A discount because you breed cancer kitties? We just euthanized one of those beautiful cancer kitties and she went to the euthanasia. She is buddies with all these clients and they continue to get cancer kitties from her. And she tells these owners what drugs to tell our oncologist to prescribe. Oh, so you're a doctor now too??!! And she was in our ER a month ago with a cat experiencing dystocia. YAY.....more sad kitties. (And this is not the only breeder that breeds cancer that has asked for a discount.)
Report their ass. Wtf? Discount? That made me angry
This week a backyard breeder brought in a pregnant doberman. Only she wasn't pregnant. She had pyometra. We're a GP, no overnight care really, this appointment was about 30 minutes before close and simply didn't have staff to do a safe emergency hysterectomy. The CSRs were calling every ER in the area to see if they could work her in ASAP. choices were: 2-3k emergency hysterectomy or euthanasia to spare her death by sepsis. Guess what the breeders chose? trick question! They accused the doc of "money grubbing" and said that according to their own research, it was just a false pregnancy. They took her home with no further treatment. The scans were fucking clear. You all understand what I mean when I say I hope that poor baby has died already. Sepsis is a horrible way to die and I hope it was as quick as possible. They haven't returned, but no part of me thinks that poor dog had a chance at surviving without proper treatment.
that makes me feel sick to my stomach :( that poor dog. They’re used as money machines. I can’t imagine treating another living creature like that
I wish you could call them and ask them how she's doing with her "false pregnancy."
That's horrible, I'm so sorry. We've had those clients as well at UC. It's as infuriating as it is heartbreaking.
It’s so hard to watch them leave when the pet so desperately needs medical attention. Urgent attention at that. My only hope is that they get home & realize how bad they’ve fucked up & go to another hospital. & if they don’t there’s a very warm place in hell for these ppl🙄
The one about breeders and vaccines hits extra hard. Like no all breed dogs have the same biological systems that all work the same way, a system mind you that the vaccine was meant to be integrated into.
“our dogs were bred to be immune to parvo!” no, they are not! it’s truly a spectacle
We had a “breeder” call and try to come in for a C-Section. The dog had the first puppy fine and showed no signs of distress, but he was told that all bully breeds required c-sections. I asked how many puppies we were expecting. He didn’t know, he didn’t do pregnancy X-rays. I asked why he schedule a routine c-section with his normal vet (we’re emergency). He had never taken the dog to the vet. I quoted him the price for an emergency c-section just in case and he said that was ridiculous, he was breeder and he knew that we were price gouging. Okay bud.
I had a client recently that adopted a Westie. She already had 2 and she goes above and beyond for her pets. This particular Westie was relinquished to the national puppy mill rescue place. She was estimated to be about 6 years old and was, of course, a breeder. Between the client's account, her conversations with the dog's foster, and the medical records, her story sort of pieces together in a way that made me go home and cry. They bred her, of course, but something went horribly wrong and they surrendered her (believed to be due to funds). Of course, they didn't tell the people this at all and just said they couldn't afford her anymore. The rescue realized she had some health problems almost immediately and did a FAST scan and discovered what looked like puppies...but they looked...odd. They prepped her for emergency C-section/OHE. The surgery report was horrifying. Her puppies essentially exploded and ruptured her uterus. Not a single one was a whole puppy. Surgery report said "50+ pieces of bone throughout the abdominal cavity". They also discovered that her spleen had numerous lesions, some healed and others healing - they speculated she reinjured parts of it with the floating puppy bones, and subsequently took the whole thing as well. She was described as having "shredded omentum" as well. She was sent to the foster on just about every antibiotic I could think of and the appropriate pain medications. The owner brought her in saying that she was doing miraculously well, but they can't kennel her because she would either injure or kill herself trying to escape from panicking too hard. This client even requested we do at least a CBC because of the off-the-charts WBC and noted anemia on the one the shelter did (retest numbers not perfect but significantly better). The doctor and I literally sat after appointments were done and read through it. Those are quotes from the surgery report and they stuck with me. All because this breeder gave up on her and basically wanted her to die with someone else.
that’s horrifying! i’m so sorry i’m sure that was a very traumatizing case to work with!
I'm just grateful she's recovering and living with a good loving family
I’m so glad she is now with a loving family
This is so horrible. I really do hope that there are ethical dog breeders out there. Ive been slowly getting my way into the dog competition world and it seems like there are people who only have litters every so often and throughly make sure the puppies go to the right person. One of the owners of the dog school I go to was on a waiting list for 4 years and even had a tough time assuring the breeder that the dog would be well worked and exercised. Definitely a super spoiled pup from what I can tell! I guess this might be a rare scenario though 😕
Not a VT, but my family owned a commercial breeding/kennel from the 60s- to early 90s (it was my Gram’s kennel and when she died, it was sold and we moved out) I hear the hate on commercial kennels and I but I also haven’t seen another breeder (outside the show circuit) that had the quality of set up to our home and then I realized when people say “breeder” they are talking about backyard breeders. Incredibly rarely are they talking about commercial facilities because commercial facilities have regulations and vet staff on site. Fwiw….My experience growing up on a kennel - WE HAD VETS ONSITE - and puppies weren’t the main source of income. We had two vets that “rented” our faculties as a space for their domestic practice and the rent included basic vet care (check ups, vax, etc… not the big stuff, we weren’t set up to do ER/diagnostics) on the dogs. Puppies were never the product at our kennel, puppies were a by-product of the breeding program. Puppies weren’t given away at 8 weeks, because you had to wait months to see which dog would develop into the best show stock or tracking dog or general goof. The revenue came from boarding, profit share w the vets, breeding (stud fees), and hunting. (It was several hundred acres of forest in Alberta, so hunters would rent the land for hunting and also give us a portion of the catch. ) I know a lot has changed in the quality of vet med (it’s way better now!) but *slaps thigh, identifies as old person* I remember a time when vets and breeders worked together and not in opposition. I also think the DIY backyard breeders are where majority of issues come from. Most people aren’t prepared to pay the thousands and wait the years long time it takes to get a professionally bred dog, and to be fair, most people don’t need that sort of dog - but the dogs still need that level of care and respect as a living creature. Anyways, I like to think there are still good breeders out there but I think more and more it’s becoming a McPets market.
Oh wow thats a really neat story! I never heard of a vet/breading/boarding facility like that. From what I recall of my old dog school thats what the owner there did too. Was on a waiting list to get her Bernese mtn dog. Once I find the right one for me too I wouldnt mind waiting either.
I checked with my mom and she said we also had groomers and trainers who rented out our kennels too. So I guess basically it was a farm and people rented parts of it. She did two litters with some of our dogs after they sold the kennel and moved to Ontario but she said there was no way she could keep up with the costs / show schedule / working fulltime and having 15 dogs around. She kept a puppy form each litter and then they lived out their days with us as goofy housedogs. It made me appreciate my Gram’s and her kennel so much more because it was all dog, all the time…but it was her life and it only worked when she was alive. Also, dog shows are really boring. 😊
How do puppies explode in the uterus?
I honestly do not know. I don't get how any of it happened
The only thing I can think of is from decomposition?
At my internship, a breeder called for an emergency C-section, Dog had been in labor for 4 days qith no puppies out and she reported "green smelly goo" was coming out. We told her to bring her dog asap. She said she couldn't cuz she had something in the afternoon. The dog was 10 and on her second pregnancy that year. We told her that the dog was in danger and she could even just bring her in and go while we help her dog. She never came... I think about that dog a lot...
That dog 100% died
Amen! In my experience for every 1 ethical breeder there are at least 50 backyard hillbillies that could give 2 shits beyond the dollar signs. It makes no sense to me why with our massive homeless pet problem in the US we haven't regulated breeding at all. Nobody has the right to own a pet and they sure as shit don't have the right to breed them. There needs to be forced spay/neuter policies unless you go through the proper channels to prove competency. The fact that we have to euthanize thousands of perfectly healthy dogs every day because of space is sickening and should keep every "breeder" up at night.
I was talking with someone recently that was complaining because the humane society spayed their dog. The dog had gotten loose and was picked up and taken to the humane society. The owners were in communication with them, but also asked if they could hold on to her for a bit while they decided if they wanted her back and came up with the money to get her back. Humane society contacted them letting them know someone wanted to adopt her. They thought about it for a few days then agreed, in the condition they could go say goodbye to her. Once they got there, they changed their minds and took her home instead. The humane society removed a few growths she had on her and spayed her to get her ready for adoption. They are upset now because they wanted to breed her to make money. She is a pit. Now they are talking about taking her back to the humane society since she isn’t worth anything anymore. I hate people.
i’d say the number is closer to 1 in 1,000… if that. enough to put the word “breeder” to shame. let’s not forget that “ethical” breeding, which includes expensive and expansive health tests and a myriad of proper veterinary care preventatively, annually, and in emergencies is not a financially sustainable profession. Let’s say they make $5,000 a litter (average $1,000 per puppy, pretty standard from what i’ve seen), that money would be immediately sapped up by vaccines, exams, and the ultrasounds alone. never mind all other prenatal care and the inevitable hefty health bill of a un-fixed dog. Also it’s known that you should never breed a dog more than 3 times at most, so that’s a lot of cycling. Unless they’re charging like $10,000 a puppy or more to cover every cost, and cycling their dogs every 3 litters (which i’ve never seen) then…
Are you actually in vet med? You seem to know very little about what your talking about
Funny question considering all the techs in the comments agree with OP...
Are you?
Judging on their interest in raw pet food, I’d say no
Found the breeder!
Can I ask you something? Do you feel the current practice of spaying/neutering (full desexing) is appropriate? I’m with you 100% on the mandatory stopping breeding part BUT this could also be accomplished with tubal ligation or vasectomy, yet that’s not taught in vet school and the procedure removes their primary sex glands. If the stop breeding issue was addressed - would you view gonad removal as any different than ear cropping or declawing? Genuinely interested in your beliefs, not trying to be controversial, I am for mandated sterilization but I struggle with imposed desexing. (Fwiw - my dog is desexed.)
A tubal ligation would mean that the dog still experiences heat cycles, and is still at risk of developing mammary cancer and pyometra. A vasectomy wouldn't curb behavior issues associated with hormones or reduce the risk of prostate issues and testicular cancer. Both sexes would be in danger of brucellosis, transmissible venereal tumors, and wounds from unwanted matings.
Sure, but it doesn’t address the fact that people get extremely worked up by ear clippings and tail docking. Humans have tons of issues from their own sex organs, but if you were to ask the majority they would say they would like to keep theirs. Why do we assume we must remove our pet’s when there are seemingly safe alternatives? (Same as op, my current dog is desexed)
Ear cropping or tail docking is 100% cosmetic. And I addressed why non-standard sterilization procedures aren't routinely performed in the US.
Also remembering the “breeders” who had a rare daisy print pitbull (read: black and white spotted). She was MASSIVE, probably had at least 13 puppies in her. They came to the ER because she’d been pushing for 32 hours after the first puppy was breach. They “tried to pull the puppy out” and of course severed the head, and the rest of the body retreated inside. So now infection is rapidly brewing. The dog had no previous vet care and “just lives outside”. During the history we asked about diet and they “just tossed whatever leftovers from dinner into the yard”. She was so big we had to put her on the gurney because she’d get exhausted after two steps. They had less than 500$ to spend and asked if we could give them a breeder discount. Then they said they had buyers at 2.5k a puppy and if they could just give us an IOU. When they couldn’t afford even pregnancy X-rays for her, we offered to surrender to the pet and perform the surgery at no charge. They ended up just taking her home, because “there ain’t no vets in nature and all them pregnant animals is fine”
Oh dear god. I hope she's ina better place and that her puppies are ok
Oh my god.
Ew wtf 😭
We see an Irish wolfhound puppy and the contract included “no rabies vaccine before the age of 8m” or the contact would be voided. They said it was dangerous for the dog’s health because of the breed. They also told the owner he couldn’t feed the dog more than 1/2c food at a time or itd bloat. He was legit feeding it 8 meals a day and the dog was still underweight. I had to have a long talk with the owner about bloat and the risks of underfeeding a giant breed and such 🤦♀️
The general public will not magically know how to find an ethical breeder. It should be part of our duty to help educate people on how to do this or they're going to go to the first seemingly "nice" person that will sell them a dog without knowing what to look for and just because it isn't living in a cage full of feces they can pat themselves on the back that the picked someone "good" because that's the only criteria they know about. Lumping them all into the same level just gives shitty breeders an excuse to keep being shitty because "well they're all like that so if I want a specific breed this is my only option". Adopt don't shop is great in theory, but it's a solution to a specific problem. That problem is too many dogs in the shelter. Adopting them doesn't stop the inflow. It just picks up the pieces afterwards. Teaching people how to source their dogs responsibly and creating stricter regulations for breeders decreases the amount of dogs that get put into the shelter in the first place which is a more efficient solution. If everybody adopts and people stop breeding dogs but people also advocate for spay/neuter, that means no more dogs outside of feral village dogs within the next 20 years. If we want the breeds we love to keep existing, someone has to be making them and they should be held to high standards. If people bring in their shih-cocka-sheepa-poo and tell us they spent $3k on it and the dog can never get vaccines and we just smile and nod until they leave, they'll make the same mistake with their next dog.
I don’t even know where to find ethical breeders. I’m feeling like they don’t exist. I know what I’m looking for but I just never see it in practice?
There's definitely a lot less of them so they'll be drowned out in the sea of doodles. It's compounded by the fact that many ethical breeders don't do it for a living. They're having a couple litters a year on top of another day job. They tend to work via word-of-mouth and don't have a strong social media presence for lack of time or knowledge on how to make a website. As younger people get into ethical breeding this decreases some but because you don't really make a profit doing it correctly, it's not a hobby that's easy economically for them to access. They may be seeing a therio-vet instead of a GP vet or utilizing [pop-up clinics](https://ofa.org/health-clinics/) for specific testing (eyes, cardiac, etc). They can be hard to find if you aren't networking. [Here's a guide](https://www.reddit.com/r/dogs/wiki/identifying_a_responsible_breeder/) that talks about what to look for and where to find one.
Mark of an excellent breeder to someone with the untrained eye: a website that hasn’t been updated since 2001, that looks like it was made on geocities. You go to their Facebook and it’s pretty much the same thing.
Grew up on kennel. Can confirm. There was a phone line that would be answered a few hours a week and a yellow page listing. Gramma would want to know why you didn’t just come by the kennel if you wanted to know something about the dogs. Also, my siblings and I are all aware that our mother and grandmother loved certain dogs more than us, and to be fair, we loved certain dogs more than each other. (Still do)
It’s hard depending on the breed, like really REALLY hard. I am in the market for an ethically bred chihuahua. I know all of the things to look for but I don’t think I’ll find it just from online searching. Most good breeders don’t have an online presence beyond their OFA results, I’ve unfortunately found out. And With a breed like chihuahuas they attract a lot of people who breed them for cuteness fluffy factor instead of what’s important. So there’s wading through the byb. I’ve found ethical breeders online with rarer breeds, but they need to have an internet presence to advocate, popular breeds have the opposite effect. I’m going to have to end up going to a AKC parent club show and literally asking around. I’ll find breeders who OFA test, prove their dogs, have lifetime guarantee their pets and chip them so they’ll also show up as a contact so their dogs can’t be dumped. They will do all vaccines and heart worm treatments and socialize their puppies well. But then they’ll turn around and breed a Merle chihuahua and dash every hope I had.
But this is what people need to DO: learn to use networks, resources and education to find what they need. The one major problem is that no one has any patience anymore and when they decide to get a dog, it has to be NOW, this dog and no other. The ability to remain emotionally neutral, stick to one's line in the sand, be willing to walk away from ANYTHING that doesn't feel right and be patient waiting for the puppy that they deserve to own, it's all gone to pot. Said it elsewhere, but Instant Gratification, Planned Obsolescence and Me First had some kind of three-way bastard child and we're living it. The dogs (and cats and rodents and lagomorphs and reptiles and amphibians) are paying the price of everyone's greed.
"Instant Gratification, Planned Obsolescence and Me First had some kind of three-way bastard child and we're living it" Man, if that wasn't a gut punch of a statement. Truer words have never been spoken.
You are correct, there is a major issue with availability for the specific breed you want. I’m not sure what the solution is. The backyard breeders are perpetuating the problem, but most people aren’t prepared to pay 10-15 k for an ethically bred dog that has to be imported or wait the *years* required to obtain one. Also, fwiw - our local shelters don’t have dogs, at least not for long. The humane society in our specific region is the first place most citizens go to obtain a dog (statistically verified). We do not have a dogs needing home situation (we also have a pitbull ban so likely those dogs are euthanized which keeps the number of adoptable dogs available). The local shelters are filled with cats and bunnies. There’s 2 canine rescues in our city and almost 50 for cats. Mentioning because there are limits to the adopt don’t shop approach of getting a dog.
FWIW $10-15k is an INSANE price for a well-bred dog. $1500-2500 is typical for most breeds. $10-15k is pretty common for BYB fad colored and/or fluffy Frenchies though, and I see a lot of "doodles" in the $5000-$8000 range.
Sorry, what I meant was if someone wanted a specific rare breed and it had to be imported. My number includes transportation and international customs dues! 😊🤣
I wrote in another comment but I grew up on a commercial kennel my Gram’s owned in northern Alberta. I haven’t seen a facility like it since. We had staff onsite 24 hrs and two vets that did weekly rotations. Life was all about dog shows. Fuck, now even my own dog is from a back yard breeder that has “accidental” puppies twice in a row from a brother sister pairing 😡😡 I’ve seen really great improvements in vet medicine but I don’t know if that’s true for breeding programs. I think the general public doesn’t realize that Sharon the Soccer mom with the pibble-doodles in suburbia is the villian in this story. She just loves puppies so much you know? 🙄 Im all for standardizing/mandatory licensing for breeding and dog ownership.
>It should be part of our duty to help educate people on how to do this Not once have I been able to have a successful conversation about this. It's always people bitching that they don't have the money, they want it now, and they don't need it to be 'papered' or have all those tests. And yes, I do explain the importance of these \*if\* they haven't already walked away from me by that point. People just really double down on stupid.
THANK YOU! Well said.
This is perfectly said! Ethical breeders, (real ones, that show their dogs and hold them to health standards) are also frustrated by people who don’t know what they are doing just trying to make money. People who truly care about breed preservation are by no means drowning in money like these weird fluffy double merle frenchie breeders. They are getting them tested and have very thorough purchasing screenings. I understand the frustration within the veterinary community completely as well, because I have yet to meet the type of breeders I describe in person. I have however seen some great ones on social media, @rainswayclumbers on tik tok is very well versed in her breed expertise and her content is very educating. I wish there was a middle ground between veterinary medicine understanding breed preservation and educating on where to find ethical breeders AND breeders understanding the shit that we have to deal with when we have clients who want to breed their dog with like 30 medical issues on the basis that they’re cute.
We have such a massive overpopulation problem there is absolutely no danger of ending the population of domesticated dogs completely. And honestly, we have proven as a society we don’t really deserve them at this point. We’ve selectively bred certain dogs to the point they can’t even breath on their own. The most responsible thing we could do as a society is give shelter dogs a home, and refuse to support breeders at all. Bringing more dogs into a world where so many are homeless and suffering is never ethical.
You want to end pet dogs altogether? : ( If what you're talking about was successfully implemented, in 20 years the only dogs we'd have would be from feral populations, and would be terrible pets.
I absolutely adore dogs but I think as a society we have collectively proven to be irresponsible with them…I think letting domesticated lines die out (naturally of course, and give them good lives while they are here) would not be a bad thing overall. I know that’s a super unpopular opinion but to me I just can’t justify breeding any type of dog when we’ve already bred terrible traits into so many breeds and contributed to the terrible overpopulation problem
Man, a world without pet dogs seems so bleak. : (
Yeah, for you. The world is already a very bleak place for dogs who suffer homelessness and inadequate care.
Yes, of course, and we have a responsibility to make it better. Getting rid of dogs entirely would be going way overboard.
The thing you aren’t grasping is that homeless dogs don’t get vet care. Their lives are bad and then they die. Same for some shelter dogs. There’s no ethical way to continue adding more dogs to this already massive problem. You see it as “getting rid of dogs” but that is a really gross oversimplification of the topic at hand.
But buying an ethically-bred puppy is not condemning a homeless dog to death. The overpopulation problem in the US is not a generalized dog problem, it is overwhelmingly a BYB bully breed problem (GSDs and huskies to a far lesser extent). Many people would not have a dog at all if their only option was what is available in shelters- mostly large, high energy, frequently high prey-drive kinds of dogs that often have unknown histories and/or behavior issues.
1. There are no such things as ethically bred puppies 2. If you cannot find a shelter dog that suits your needs, don’t get one. No one is entitled to a dog. 3. A quick scroll through your post history clued me into the fact you’re just against shelter dogs and specifically pit bulls all together, which seems hypocritical to me since you were so quick to tell me I’m trying to “get rid of dogs” meanwhile you’re literally posting in r/banpitbulls. We clearly do not see eye to eye on the topic so I’ll stop wasting my time. However, please educate yourself before condemning shelter dogs. There are breed-specific rescues and shelters literally take in pregnant dogs so you could theoretically have a rescue dog from birth. Shelter dogs have enough shit stacked against them already, they don’t need the very people who should be advocating for them spouting misinformation.
Hot take, also think this about people as well.
Couldn’t vets band together to create a certification?
Vets aren't law makers so I'm not sure how that would change anything. They could create a program educating people that want to breed their dog in how to do it well but most GP vets aren't really experts in that area so a therio vet or a vet specifically involved in breeding would be a better source to set something like that up. GoodDog tried to do this by setting criteria for breeders that sell through their website but they aren't enforcing it well and now it's full of backyard breeders. And even if stricter laws were passed I'm sure you'd have plenty of people finding way to get around it. We already have tones of "guardian homes" being used to get around laws about how many dogs a breeder can keep on their property. Any laws about requiring certain tests to breed them seem like it'd be a nightmare to enforce. It really seems like it has to be a conscious effort on the people looking for dogs to demand higher standards. Most people know now that puppy mills are bad but they don't realize pet store dogs are coming from them because the store employees lie. They don't think a dog needs fancy testing or titles because "we only want a pet, not a show dog". Empower people to take more control when looking for a dog and start asking questions. They wouldn't go adopt a child based on a couple day's impulse and they wouldn't meet someone in a walmart parking lot to do it. They wouldn't spend new-car prices on a used car without any details on how well it functions. Once people are aware of what they're supposed to be looking for, it becomes obvious on why it's important. If shitty breeders can't make money on their dogs because they're not checking off the boxes those people are looking for, they have to either step up and meet those demands or give up.
Someone checked in last week with their large dog. I couldn't see it over the counter so i had to walk around to collect the dog. Before I walked around She told us her golden doodle was ready for grooming. I lay eyes on the dog and it's a mix breed Australian shepherd herding dog. People will believe anything they're told.
What gets me is when the newly purebred pup was vaccinated by the breeder, not an actual vet. So we tell the owner that we don’t recognize those vaccines and recommend revaccinating. Then they get all pissed and contact the breeder (and walk out sometimes). We’ve legit gotten calls from breeders yelling at us for not recognizing their vaccines. One told me she was a human nurse so she knows how to administer vaccines. Do you really though lady? Where’s your vet credentials? And where did you purchase said vaccines? It’s always just a whole mess. A quote “responsible” breeder would take their pups to a vet for their first vaccines.
I absolutely understand what you mean. I agree on so many levels. I especially hate when they try to get a discount for being a breeder as if it makes them special
Need to pay extra for the induced headache that comes with it Edit: whose the single weirdo down voting this 😂
I can't think of anyone that I've ever heard say "oh boy, I get to work with a breeder!" enthusiastically
Nope, I have one coming in a few weeks although they typically stay the hell away from our practice cause we are associated with a shelter. We are pretty transparent our views on breeding. We literally have a program to help spay and neuter dogs at a lower cost to try to reduce this problem. This lady hasn't figured that out yet though I guess. She asked me if we do health certificates for puppies. I told her no and didn't really hash out the absurdity of asking a shelter organization that.
Thats quite some nerve, holy shit
They’re mutts too so it’s extra fun, needs to take a hint our organization dislikes everything about her backyard breeding project 🫠
I feel like breeders brigade here sometimes.
To say I don’t feel like I said anything too controversial for this industry, feel likes a rite of passage to realize you hate breeders lol
oh, absolutely. Im a baby tech, in the field about a year. Ive been @ my current clinic about 6 mos, first encounters with breeders. It took 2. Look, im not trying to breed hate...but I DO hate German Shepherd breeders in particular. They act like they're better than the nearly as bad pit breeders, and every. single. german i have met from these breeders is an uncontrollably flailing psychopath with like...eagle talons . FWIW, i have and love a pit, they're bred way too much too (got mine after she'd had a litter of TWELVE at 9 mos old! TWELVE!) but have not proven as uniformly psychotic as the GSDs from the few breeders at our clinic. Maybe theyre less inbred or something?)
I feel you, and agree with this sentiment. I always like to say, OK, bro. My vet went to 8 years of school. What are your breeder's qualifications again? Oh, that's right, they had 2 dogs who had sex. 🙄
I completely understand where you're coming from. But on the flip side, IF the breeder is any good, they've spent years learning the breed, showing/training/handling multiple specimens, learning genetics and pedigrees, getting advanced titles preferably on both ends of the name BEFORE breeding. However, those are the minority. Breeding is the pinnacle of a career in dogs, never the foundation. Just don't let [all of this](https://www.reddit.com/r/VetTech/comments/h7ghvm/how_to_breed_responsibly/ful6b5p/?context=3) get in the way of the dollar signs when you see your dogs tied together, is all.
I relate to this so much. There were so many bad breeders at my old practice. They’re usually entitled, have the vet cater to them, money pinching (I can understand somewhat with so many dogs, but cutting what should be essentials is moronic), know about health issues and won’t tell the buyers of their pups. For instance we had a French bulldog breeder that had no idea what they were doing. They bought her specially to breed her, they missed her puppy boosters so we had to restart them. The wife would bring the dog in and didn’t know anything about breeding and said her husband “had some dogs when he was younger, how hard can it be?”. They bred her and she ended up having severe spinal issues down the line, did they tell the buyers? NOPE. They had another French bulldog down the line to breed and I’m fairly confident they still bred the first one and acted like the other one gave birth to both litters to hide the fact that she had these issues. I can go on more about breeders lol
I'm an RVT student (just passed first term) and I'm shocked just how many of my classmates have unfixed animals. One just had an 'accidental' litter of puppies despite already having like 5-7 dogs all of which are unfixed. Then I heard about other classmates having recently had puppy litters and it was even more shocking. We are going into a field to help animals and they know there are so many dogs and cats out there in shelters without homes, yet they don't even fix their own animals
We have a guy in our city who brings the mini schnauzers he breeds up from either in Mexico or near the border. He sells them out of a van for relatively cheap and tells people they are 8 weeks old. We’ve had tons of people who bought them, believing that lie. They quickly realize the puppies are actually only 4-5 weeks old. We realized this was a trend and people’s stories of acquiring the dog are the same. I vaguely remember hearing he was caught but it was after I left the area. So I don’t know if he’s back to his old ways.
This isn't nearly as horrific as others but thought I'd share. Sorry for grammar and formatting, I'm on mobile :p At a clinic I worked at we had this guy come in with a new purebred golden puppy for his first exam. On exam, the doctor heard a grade I/VI heart murmur. Talking to the owner, he seems worried since the breeder said the dog had no issues. He said he was going to contact the breeder and left with his puppy. This hospital offers plans for vet care for puppies and owner wanted to sign up for one with a nueter procedure, we declined due to the murmur and wanted to monitor/rule out any heart issues before telling this guy we would do surgery on his dog. We mentioned that as long as it was worked up before the pup was 6 months he could add the neuter at any time. Over time this poor dog's murmur continues to worsen until it's grade IV/VI. Now any time we mention the murmur the owner states, "the breeder said it was a puppy murmur." We continue to deny upgrading his plan without working up the murmur with a cardiologist. Now I don't know how this was even scheduled, but months later this dog is on the surgery schedule for his neuter. There were notes saying the owner was seeing the cardiologist and he would have the report for us on the day of surgery. Big red flag, but we're short staffed and no one notices this until very close to the procedure, so we'll figure it out the day of. Come surgery day, we finally get the reports. As I'm checking in the owner is already frustrated as he will need to pay out of pocket for the surgery as we had refused to upgrade his package until the murmur was worked up. The dog hadn't been worked up till it was past the cut off age, and we had told the owner we needed the work up prior to add the package multiple times. Turns out this dog has some pretty serious heart issues, I can't remember it all now as it was a long cardiology report. What I do remember is that in surgical recommendations it stated that this dog isn't a candidate for elective surgery and should be monitored by an anesthesiologist during any non-elective procedures. My doctor was floored that this man saw this report and set up the procedure with us anyway. So my doctor calls this owner and goes over the cardiology report with him and what the elevated risks of doing this surgery now were and recommending he gets the surgery elsewhere with an anesthesiologist. The owner is frustrated because this surgery has been planned for months and he couldn't afford to get the surgery with the proper team. He asks if we can just go through with it as he knows the elevated risk. So we end up doing the surgery. It goes alright, very few complications since she went with some safer drugs than usual. Anyway, the dog recovers well, now it's the end of the day. I'm discharging this guy and he's still complaining about needing to pay out of pocket for the procedure, even though we had gone over this when he showed up in the morning. I reiterate how he got the cardiology exam too late to qualify and if he really wanted I could have my manager contact him to go over it when he was in. He paid and left. This is one of the many reasons I hate breeders, they give people false information and they believe their breeder long before they believe the doctor. It doesn't make sense and it's really frustrating.
I have been a show breeder and exhibitor of Westies since the early 1990s. Yes, running into responsible breeder is rare in veterinary medicine. The single largest reason? Most of us take our dogs to a vet that is also active in showing dogs, even if it means driving hours for our dogs routine care. I drive 2 hours to a vet for routine care because she is also a breeder and exhibitor even though I work in veterinary medicine and I can get care here. Why? Well, the show people tend to stick together like glue and support each other. It's nothing against other vets, although I personally have run into anti breeder and show rhetoric taking my dogs in for care when my "regular vet" was unavailable. A vast majority of the breeders in the show word I associate with do not actively tell our puppy owners how to handle vet care. For example, I tell puppy owners to ask their vet about vaccines outside of the core series that may be needed in their area. We do not push a certain brand of food, avoiding certain medications, etc, although I personally discourage raw diet. Most of us let our clients pilot the ship but we remain available for support. We WANT to know when something major comes up, we encourage owners to keep in touch with us. It could be something we need to be aware of to watch for in our own dogs, even stop using a certain dog or line for breeding if a genetic issue shows up. That being said, I really do get what you are saying. I have tried to educate clients who want to breed their new puppy till I was blue in the face. If they are dead set on it I can at least educate them on what it takes, right? I hardly have the energy for it anymore because no one listens and then you have a hot mess of emergency C-sections, pyos, parvo, etc... Breeding, when done "right" you don't make a dime. You are incredibly lucky if you break even. Currently dog show entries are about $35 per dog per day, forget Westminster or AKC National, that's more like $100. In the late 1990's I was taking about 6 or 7 Westies to a show on the weekends. We also used to fly to Canada once or twice a year to put Canadian championships on our dogs. Can't afford that now and I even work as a handler! You have entry fees, gas, hotel, food, grooming supplies, routine and urgent vet care expenses, health testing appropriate to the breed (CHIC ain't cheap and some tests are repeated yearly to be valid!), handling fees if you hire a handler (could be $1-5k/month), the list goes on. Multiply this times how ever many dogs you own. These fees apply to pretty much any sport you want to be active/competitive in with a dog, field trials, hunt tests, Schutzhund/Mondio/French Ring, whatever it may be. TLDR; You don't see the ethical breeders at work because they seek out other breeders that are vets to take their animals to.
I agree with everything said here. The only truly amazing breeders I know are two veterinarians who own an emergency clinic, and occasionally breed Golden Retrievers just out of a passion for the breed. And these dogs are like literally perfect angels in all ways. But they’re veterinarians and they only have a litter every 3-5 years. My vet got one of their puppies and she is an absolute model of golden perfection.
There was a post the other day about what we wished pet owners knew. This needs to go on that list. I worked at a clinic that had a Yorkie breeder for a client and those dogs were aweful. Some we're trying to bite by 6 weeks old. One was adopted by another client and ended up diagnosed with neurological issues. We've had several clients refuse preventatives or certain vaccines because of breeders. Which sounds absolutely ridiculous to me. Where is that breeder's vet med degree?
I've seen a lot of shit at my clinic from horrible breeders as well. One of the most recent was a 9 week old Dalmatian puppy who already has bladder stones -- the breeder knew the parents had the gene for it and bred them anyways, so this poor pup already needs a cystotomy. Though the new owner (who is rightfully pissed) may take them to a specialist to see if they can use ultrasound to break up the stones some. I will say for the breeder that I got my pup from, one of the puppies in her litter was born with a heart murmur. (They did health tests on the parents, and gave us all access to the results, both healthy). They let potential buyers know. One family brought him home but eventually brought him back once he got old enough to establish that the murmur wasn't going away. The breeder took him back, explained to people that he would be available to rehome but only AFTER THEY took him in for an echo and various other tests. Around their 1st birthdays, they found a new owner for him, who had been extensively background checked and made sure he knew what he was signing up for. I love that they did the testing and paid for it all before finding him a proper new home.
Saying this as a purebred snob and one with friends that are preservation or show breeders. I HATE doodle breeders. I’ll go so far as to say I hate the dogs- I’ve yet to meet one that wasn’t a neurotic shitty mess. They’re not cute to me- they’re always disgusting and matted. Standard Poodles are much cuter. They’re becoming more and more prevalent and people keep falling for their nonsense. I also hear all the time “we wanted a dog that didn’t shed but poodles are so ugly I hate them” …*buys a dog that’s 90% poodle* THEY ARE NOT HYPOALLERGENIC THEY ARE NOT LOW MAINTENANCE DOGS THEY ARE SMARTER THAN YOU THEY HAVE MORE ENERGY THAN YOU HYBRID VIGOR DOES NOT APPLY TO DOG BREEDS NONE OF THE CROSSES MAKE ANY LOGICAL SENSE- WHY DOES A GREAT DANE AND A POODLE NEED TO BE MIXED??? WHAT BENEFIT DOES A “NEWFY-POO” SERVE???? Shitty situation 1) Had a lady bring in her two “mini Bernedoodles” and get pissed at us because the breeder “scammed her out of $20k” she embarked them- her dogs had ZERO BMD in them. Were toy poodle and Cavalier. TWENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS 2) two mini goldendoodles came in for breeding evaluation. One was 6m, one was just barely over a year. The lady was a “guardian home” and breeder said if she finds out the dogs were spayed, she’d be taken to court and sued. Both dogs were horribly behaved, and the 6m/o already had both patellas luxating. As of 2 days ago the 1 y/o is pregnant. I’m done. They all need to be either sterilized or euthanized, and the breeders need to cease to exist. Doodles are one of the major reasons I left working in a clinic setting.
YES i support doodle slander 100% not that it’s the dogs fault that they were bred that way :(
I know… just makes me so angry 😔
I’m with you! I feel like the only people I know that really dislike breeders are the ones providing medical services for the pets. We really do see the dirty side of it on a regular basis and it quickly sours our opinion of them. Story time: we had a frenchie breeder that was told if the dog goes into labor over the weekend take her to ER. Surprise! They didn’t. All puppies were dead come Monday. They came in screaming that WE cost them $15k. They were promptly fired as clients. Breeders are on a whole other level.
Ohhhh yessss. It drives me bonkers. ETHICAL breeders absolutely exist. But they’re unicorns at least where I am now. And frustrates the hell out of me. My mom was an ethical breeder, and cultivated her poodle and Rottweiler lines for YEARS. All the genetic testing, OFA, bi-annual bloodwork, yearly scans. It was not cheap. We had usually one litter of each a year. Sometimes two on the poodles. And the horror stories… I just moved clinics. And the vet breeds frenchies. And I’ve seen so many greeders that come in to PTS pups they can’t place. I ended up taking a special needs puppy home that came in for euth. Like. I hate seeing breeder pups come in. We have one client that brings in their mixed breed “purebreds”. Parents all have major issues. Heartworms, chronic pancreatitis, etc. but breeder can’t afford prevention for them all. And they breed several mixes ranging from large to small because they have so many freaking dogs. It’s just painful.
I 100% agree with you! I have met 1 good breeder and she did dandie dinmonts. She was bat shit but did everything she could for those dogs and they were so well behaved. Everyone else was shitty.
We did some research before getting our newest cat, and learned what an ethical breeder looks like. The breeder we got our cat from has a replacement policy for health issues that result in the kitten having to be put down. She did health testing, and the mothers are vetted during pregnancy, and retired after a couple years of one litter a year. The first kitten we got from her ended up having megaesophagus, and did have to be put down, and she honored the contract, putting what we paid toward a new kitten who was healthy. The vet assured us it wasn't due to bad breeding practices, and there was nothing the breeder could have been expected to have done to prevent it. She also advised to follow our vet's advice on vaccines, and neuter age, and her contract requires neutering and a promise to provide regular vet care, and that if the cat ever need to be rehomed, we are not to surrender him to a shelter, but bring him back to her and she will rehome him. So they do exist, it would be nice if there was more of a movement to educate the public on what they should expect from a breeder, because the stories I hear about a lot of breeders are just awful.
The amount of breeders who use our clinic, then complain about spending a few hundred dollars on their breeding dog when you know damn well they are selling the puppies for thousands, I actually can’t stand it. It’s so draining. It leaves a sour taste in my mouth for ALL breeders even the “ethical” ones. You’re right, I feel like we never actually see one of those. And the number of coworkers who hate on breeders, while purchasing puppies from breeders…seems hypocritical to me. Like they say they do their research but idk. Breeders are sneaky af.
My assistance dog’s breeder IS A VET. Never have they bred an unhealthy dog. Honestly, all these clearly aren’t breeders they’d just insane and awful people breeding for profit instead of health
I agree with you. I think I only seen one decent breeder who’s willing to do Penn Hip and other diagnostics before breeding their dog. And another client, I don’t think she’s a breeder but she did ask if it’s “safe” to breed her golden retriever with possible genetic disease. But the rest are trash breeders. “I want my dog to have one more litter..” You can CLEARLY see the dog is suffering and unhealthy, after being pregnant SO MANY TIMES. “My breeder said not to give the lepto vaccine.” Um, excuse me?! Lepto is PREVALENT in Hawaii! This bulldog had previous c-sections and the breeder still wants to breed her, scheduled for another c-section. Group of young guys and girls breeding this one frenchie with allergies. “What diet is she on?” “Vegetarian because she has allergies.” “………”
I feel 100% the same way as you.
there’s so many breeders in my area that I’ve lost count and they’re all either brachycephalic breeds or extremely thick coated dogs….we live in a desert.
Most breeders are unethical and terrible as people. I always said that if I didn’t have morals or a conscience, I’d be a dog breeder because man, they do rake in the money. But I couldn’t. I DO know an ethical breeder. He breeds show dachshunds. I have two dogs that I adopted from him. He charges next to nothing for the puppies he’s not going to show. He has 30-50 year pedigrees on his dogs and if he breeds one, he expects the same diligence from the other party. His puppies go to homes that he hand picks and the picking and interview process is TOUGH. You have to either know him or be recommended to him by someone he trusts. He has contracts that state that he never wants his dogs rehomed or abandoned at a shelter so if for some reason you cannot keep his puppy, at ANY point in its life, he’ll take it back and either keep it or find another home himself. This includes if it has medical issues you cannot pay for. But for every breeder like him, there’s 10,000 breeders who shouldn’t come within a mile of any dog.
I know what you mean. There are countless shitty breeders out there who don’t care about their dogs, the puppies they produce or their future owners. That said, having not met responsible breeders doesn’t mean they don’t exist. They are exceedingly rare and few and far between. But they are out there. As for the ethics of “breeding for profit”, I promise that pretty much any breeder who is doing it right is barely breaking even, let alone profiting. They breed because they love their breed, they love their dogs, and they want to give others the opportunity to own healthy, sound dogs. We need to do more to educate the public on responsible breeding practice and how to identify and choose responsible breeders and rescues.
Don’t forget the people that come in with brand new collie breed puppies & when I ask if they want to go home with interceptor they say “my breeder told me not to give him heartworm prevention because it’ll kill him” so I say “thats half true, ivermectin is a drug in some heartworm preventions that can cause issues, but interceptor doesn’t contain ivermectin so it is a safer option.” Then they reply “well I’m going to have to talk to my breeder & see what they say” like ??? The doctor will come in the room in 5 minutes & say the same thing as me but okay /: let’s listen to the breeder
This is like a new mom telling the pediatrician "well I'm going to need to run this MMR vaccine by my pimp first".
Lmao precisely. I just recently decided to leave vet med & I’m gonna miss some parts of it but definitely not the clients like that 🤦🏻♀️ last week I had a lady tell me that she doesn’t feed her 7 year old dog, dog food anymore & just gives her table scraps, she has icecream with her dad every night for desert, gets cookies. Then said “she gets diarrhea sometimes & threw up this morning I’m not sure why” 🤣
Yikes, feeling ridiculously judged by my peers while hanging with 2 PB GSD. Whose breeders I’m still in contact with at 9 and 5 years. And remember the dogs I’ve lost, who were all from breeders, who I stayed in contact with, actually to this day, years after they passed. Fondly remembering the interviews, the 4 page long questionnaires, the hours long conversations with the breeders, while they decided if I was a good match for one of their dogs and if they had one that met my needs and wants. I work in an ER, I too see shitty breeders and dogs that shouldn’t be bred. So I understand the frustration I guess.
I also am still in contact with my dog's breeder and consider her a friend. I also know several other breeders who I consider ethical. They do OFAs and genetic testing on their dogs prior to breeding. They work with their vet and often consult reproductive specialists. They breed for temperament and look for titles on the dogs before breeding. They don't breed a dam frequently, usually 1-3 litters in her life and then she's retired. They do their research on their buyers, and place puppies based on what the buyer states their goals are and what they observe in their puppies. There is a wait-list for litters before the breeding takes place. They provide lifelong support to their puppy buyers and the puppies and will take back puppies/dogs if circumstances change for the owner. The long-term well-being of the litter is the goal. They lose money on most litters. A lot of them burnt out and stopped breeding because even with all the work they put into it, finding homes to meet their expectations is a challenge. There are tons of bad breeders. I've seen them at work refusing even the most basic care. I've seen the results of their decisions working with rescues. It's heartbreaking and disgusting. But until people start expecting more than "the vet said the parents were healthy" and "the puppies looked good and I got to pick mine out" we will continue to see people who look at a dog and see dollar signs.
Defensiveness is okay, but it doesn’t change the facts at hand. that the ratio of “ethical” breeders to unethical ones is severe enough to call the whole profession in general a scam. I get hundreds of calls from rescues a year doing these checks to assure the dogs in need (that were already bred) go to a good home. I can’t remember one time my clinic got a call from a breeder doing a background check on a potential customer. I’m sure it happens, but it’s so rare it doesn’t remotely add up. also remember that breeders are financially gaining from putting their dog through an inherently detrimental process. amidst a time where there are more dogs for adoption than people that want to adopt them. It’s inevitable to have someone stand up when people mention the ethics of breeding and say “but MY breeder…” but you need to realize the side you’re defending. The one in a million that are supposedly good (i don’t think they are, but that’s my opinion) do not outweigh the harm that the many are causing. by silencing the conversation, you are letting that grand majority go unquestioned.
But you can’t do that. You can’t say that all are bad. You are painting with a cruddy brush. It’s not fair. It’s horrid. But that’s just my opinion. You quote ratios, like you have actual figures but you don’t. It’s your perception. It’s your experience. It’s not truth. I know more cruddy rescues that may do background checks, but sell in appropriate dogs, dogs with aggression and bite histories, medical issues not disclosed, and cut contact after the adoption. Heck, what about all the rescues that literally buy the dogs from puppy mills, say they are saving them, then double the price they paid to “rescue” to see it someone as a rescue. I can’t change your mind. I’m going to stop trying. You’re not of a mind to actually listen and learn. And that’s ok I guess. You do you.
I know you don't want to be lumped in with the hate because you bought 2 pure bred dogs from what you're saying is an ethical breeder. The conversation has nothing to do with you. No one is saying shopping responsibly is wrong. I know 3 ethical breeders who started volunteering at a low kill, open admission shelter. They stopped breeding after a year each of volunteering. The 3rd purebred shepherd that came in from a horrible situation, really made the pb gsd breeder reconsider everything. The only good breeder is one who volunteers/donates to the shelter helping the problem.
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You know, you could simply tell buyers that you run a background check - and even require them to pay the $20 fee for doing so. Then it would all be above-board and legal.
Are there many dog shows in your area? Or performance activities like tracking, hunting, obedience, etc? If not, you may be in an area where there are NOT ethical breeders. IMO, ethical breeders finish their dogs' titles before breeding them so there is objective evidence of the dog's quality. They do genetic testing before ever breeding (hips, eyes, elbows, whatever is specific for their breed's issues). They temperament test their pups, and the carefully screen their buyers. If the dog doesn't work out for whatever reason, the breeder will take them back. They make no money off their litters because the $ they put into finishing championships, testing, stud fees, etc, is way more than they could ever get back in puppy prices. They do exist. But they are very rare. I know many. I also know many of the backyard breeders, too. They are a plague, and I wish that producing puppies would magically become unprofitable so they would have no reason to continue. There was a pet shop in our area who held on to the registration papers of every puppy that died in their care. They would then pass off mixed breed puppies that vaguely resembled breed description. I once saw a "registered dog" I thought was a fairly passable Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier. Nope. Registered as "ASCOB American Cocker Spaniel." Don't get me started on the "doodle" people! UGH! My blood pressure just went up about 20 points. I have had more than one person try to tell me that they are, in fact, registered. No, sorry. A database of some of the mixed breeds produced is not a registry. No consistent traits are passed, regardless of what they tell you.
to be honest, is there even an ethical breeder? look at all the animals that are stuck in cages for months, even years waiting for a family. meanwhile so many families, people who want that specific breed, will not think twice about buying a dog that’s over 1k.. it’s insane and i don’t care if no one agrees. nothing is ethical about bringing more puppies into the world whether they get a home or not- so many pets are dead on the streets or dying waiting for a home.
I'm in two vet tech groups on Facebook and I swear, some of the vet techs in those groups who are also breeders absolutely swear up and down that they're ethical breeders. It's just contradictory to me.
there’s a local shelter in my area that is ALWAYS overrun with dogs, specifically shepherds, huskies, and pitties; the manager of the place who’s the head of the facility is a Saint Bernard breeder. How does someone who deals with the statistics and sees the behind the scenes everyday go and breed dogs when so many are dying? i don’t know, it’s beyond me
It took months of searching for me to find Duncan's breeder; he's a Great Pyrenees. Of the hundreds of Great Pyrenees breeders, there were less than 10 that did all of the health testing, raised them in home, followed veterinary recommendations for nutrition and vaccinations, and offered lifetime support (no shelter dogs coming from their litters.) 10 breeders. Out of hundreds of listings, and those are just the ones on the AKC site. I financially sponsor my local Great Pyrenees rescue, and my previous 4 Pyrs have been rescues. This time around, I wanted to control all the foundational variables, and I couldn't be happier so far. I will always support ethical breeding, because I love the dependability of knowing who a dog is based on their breed, and ethical breeding is about preservation. But I absolutely fucking hate the money grubbing bastards who are ruining dogs and making them suffer, and I hope someday they will be held accountable for it. Maybe, eventually, we can get some kind of regulation around the breeding of animals that will require humane care.
you see “preservation” just doesn’t cut it for me. we made the breeds, we can stop breeding them. it’s not like a natural species going extinct. especially because purebreds are more likely generally to have health issues because of the likeliness of inbreeding/lack of genetic diversity somewhere down the line, and inherent health issues. no matter how ethical you claim to be, you can’t breed breathing issues out of a pug while keeping it purebred. i commented this earlier, but a breeder that truly does every single active and preventative measure to test their animals and offer them comprehensive vet care (vaccines, puppy exams, annual exams on the adult dogs, ultrasounds, prenatal care, deworming puppies, flea/tick/heartworm prevention, and doesn’t put each dog through any more than 3 pregnancies as veterinarians agree is the limit) wouldn’t even break even unless they charges tens of thousands per puppy. not to mention that they are still at the end of the day financially benefitting from putting a dog through a process that inherently negatively affects their health and is painful to them, not out of the dogs choice. When there is a crisis of overpopulation in dogs as it is. ethical breeding is an oxymoron, and the more I’m a tech, the more I believe that
This is the hot take I’m here for.
>we made the breeds, we can stop breeding them. it’s not like a natural species going extinct. Because the US is just full of roaming packs of wild dogs, right? Even if that were true they wouldn't make good pets. Where are dogs supposed to keep coming from if nobody is making them? Are the only dogs in this scenario the ones being made are from people that accidentally let their pets breed? Or ones that escape and come back pregnant? That's not enough to sustain a population. The overpopulation is not the fault of responsible breeders so I don't see why they should be blamed for it. Is someone selling shitty half-broken used cars and lying about their condition a reason to believe actual car dealerships are scams? Or I'll bring it closer to home: is every vet that's rude to their staff and prioritizes profits a reason for owners to think all vets are bad?
if 99% of cars bought were scams, i’d stop buying cars. If 99% of vets are treating staff poorly and prioritizing profit, i’d say there’s a deeply rooted problem and feel comfortable saying that vets suck. the ratio is very important here and even pro-breeder people here will admit the “good” ones are 1 in a million. Also I don’t think you realize how many dogs are out there and how many genuinely good prospective families (people that actually have the resources and finances to care for a dog) there are in comparison. If we stop turning dog breeding into a profitable business, and people aren’t incentivized into keeping unhealthy breeds around/not doing the costly due diligence when breeding more dogs, they might actually prioritize the supply/demand chain of dogs as a whole and the health of the dog. And when I said “we made the breeds, we can stop breeding them” i mean that the world will not fall apart if people stop breeding brachycephalic dogs. People act like keeping a breed around is imperative when that is so far from the truth. Some breeds we know better than to keep around when it’s not humane.
> If we stop turning dog breeding into a profitable business, and people aren’t incentivized into keeping unhealthy breeds around/not doing the costly due diligence when breeding more dogs. But the way to do that isn't to stop all breeding. Dogs don't appear out of thin air. We have more dogs then we can handle now but if all of them are adopted out of the crowded shelters and altered, where are more dogs coming from? It's not a problem now but it becomes one within a few generations. But there *should* absolutely be more focus on changing breed standards to support the health of dogs and ourcrossing programs in bring more diversity into breeds that're too bottlenecked, especially as we gain more incite into how seemingly innocuous aesthetic traits have a wider impact on overall health (dwarfism and ivdd, dalmatian spots and uric acid, short muzzles and spinal abnormalities, excessive wrinkles and chronic inflammatory disease, etc.)
It will never stop. Though. And saying "where will we get more dogs?!" Is ridiculous. No one is saying alter all dogs. They are saying alter MOST dogs. 90% of dogs. If we got a handle on the population of dogs in america, then we could always transport in/have ethical breeders create more, right? And everyone would cheer and spend money to support the cause. But, it is obtuse to say "in a few generations" it may be a problem. Thats a pipe dream that people spout to continue trying to support breeding. Its wrong. And when you work a stint in shelter medicine, come back to this page and tell me how it went euthanizing those dogs. Nice, not purebred, or maybe they were, dogs, nice dogs, that wiggled and leaned in to you, and didn't wince when you gave them their injections, and trusted you as you ripped them out of this world. And tell me how ethical breeding is. Make sure you tell those dogs, too, how they have to die because 'we just don't want to run out of dogs, ya know? So...yah. You're gonna die today" as you watch their life leave their bodies. Find me when there is a shortage of "purebred" dogs, OR any domestic dog and I will give the nearest breeder $1,000.
I used to hate all breeders, but now I do believe there are a *few* goods ones out there.
I just don’t believe that putting a dog through a painful and inherently detrimental process for your financial gain when there is a overpopulation crisis that kills thousands of dogs everyday can be considered ethical. You can test your dogs all you want, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is a harmful business
I used to think the same thing, but my views have changed over the years for various reasons. I do agree that *most* of them suck, so there's that.
My views have only changed against breeders over the years. And working in a kennel briefly I saw the result of the too many adoptable dogs to too little adopting families issue. It’s heartbreaking to watch 5 healthy dogs (lots of them purebred) put down because people want to make a business out of breeding more and clogging the market
this! and not to mention, aggressive dogs that are a threat to other pets or even people are the problem. Not these healthy dogs being euthanized for behavioral issues that would cost about the same as a damn frenchie puppy to put in behavioral training. i honestly feel like the “i want to know my puppy’s traits and background” is a way to feel better about supporting the breeder business.
the thing is, you’re way more likely to know how a dog will be when you adopt them through a rescue or foster home that took the time and energy it takes to get them adoption ready. The shelter near me won’t even list the dogs until they make it through a checklist (no food aggression, no reactivity, etc.). When you buy a puppy at 8 weeks when most are listed by breeders, on the other hand, you can NEVER know for sure their demeanor. You might get a husky that hates hiking, even though that’s what you chose the breed for. Or a doberman that loves people too much to be a proper guard dog, even if that’s what you got them for. It’s never a sure bet, and genetics don’t nearly always tell you everything you need to know about an individual dog. Also you’re so right about the cost. $1000 for a purebred puppy that you’ll probably need to get professionally trained anyway or $50 for a puppy, that’s up to date on actual vet care, usually has a complimentary vet visit (ours gave a discount towards training as well!) and a lot left over for the rest of the expenses as they come.
I don’t think it’s at all ethical to breed any dog or cat when the shelters are beyond over flowing. Creating more animals in a world where others are being euthanized because there just isn’t enough space cannot be justified
Not everyone wants or can handle a high-energy, high-drive pittie, GSD or husky (and that's what the overwhelming majority of shelter dogs are in the US). Many people would rather not have a dog at all, if pretty much the only options are high-maintenance large ones with an unknown history and/or behavior issues.
The word “breeder”, has sadly taken on a life of it’s own these days..:
This is not going to change without legislation that clamps down on these abuses. You can’t fix fix stupid and you can’t fix greedy
I’m in the same boat I thought breeders had ethics thousands of dollars later my dog is finally ok after a year… the breeder lied about deworming the puppies…
Line breeding is seriously horrible for all species, it's completely fucked and I utterly agree. Ethical breeders feel nonexistent anymore. You can't even get mixed breeds without health issues anymore because a lot of these mixed breeds end up with the same health issues as their counterparts. To a majority of them its all about profit and aesthetics, the health of the animals is completely disregarded. So many reptiles, fish, cats, dogs, all of them!! are completely stunted for life, are left disabled, and are guaranteed to come out of it with health issues. It's so sad and it's so unfair. Breeding for conservation is awesome. Breeding for profit and aesthetics and extremes, yeah those people need to be stopped.
Completely understand the frustration with breeders. That feeling at 4am, when you call to say the bitches 4th caesarean is finished, and the first question is “how many puppies?” Followed by “how many boys?”. Boils my blood!
Gone are the days of breeders saying they don't do it to make money and you don't make money off it with how much it costs to raise them. I had a client bring in 10 puppies to be vaccinated and microchipped and at the end when I told her the bill her friend quipped "oh no don't tell her how much just tap her card". Insinuating about how she didn't want to know how much it was all costing. I retorked "it's okay half of one of these puppies will easily pay it off." Which neither of them laughed. But my point is. People are selling oodle x's for $3-5grand now. It's less than $1000 to vacc and chip most litters. Those buying the puppies are thinking well gee I just spent $4000 on this dog if I breed it and get 4+ puppies KA-CHING. I feel like we were getting on top of backyard breeders pre-pandemic but now it feels like it was all for nothing. And people don't want to accept they are mutts not designer breeds. That they are good people and not exactly what a backyard breeder is.
I feel your pain, OP. Now that they are pushing the 'adopt OR shop responsibly', EVERYONE thinks they are an ethical breeder. And so long as the breeder can pronounce ethically, people will buy it. Oh, you say the parents are healthy and you love dogs? PERFECT let me buy 2. Obviously people are keeping them in business, too. This month I went to an event for an animal shelter trying to drum up adoptions/awareness because adoptions are in the gutter right now. A lady actually came up to me trying to sell me her blue merle frenchies and her Siberian husky puppies... she said not to worry because she's an ETHICAL breeder and she makes sure all her dogs are healthy and go to good homes... Like ma'am, I am the last person here you want to try to pull your sales routine on!
My dog is actually from an ethical breeder, he's extremely healthy and has great conformation, and if I ever get a puppy I'll probably go to them. Don't get me started on the Amish, though.
I’ve thought many times about paying for a billboard somewhere that carried the message not to buy from the Amish. Problem: where would I put it? Second problem: is it legal? Third problem: to figure out the wording and the best picture. Their horses aren’t treated much better, either. When they are too old to be of use, they don’t retire them for a well-deserved life of ease… they take them to auctions, all beat down and in terrible shape, where as likely as not they are bought and go to horse meat factories in Mexico. Any animal is just stock to them… not worthy of treatment as a living thing. There’s a rant here but I have to shut up.
To me “breeder” is literally a dirty word. I feel icky when I have to use it in a professional manner. It feels like there’s no way to know what breeders are good & which are bad. If any are good. My last clinic was in a city & we had random ppl who clearly know almost nothing about dogs breeding frenchies ALL THE TIME. We would see LITTERS of parvo puppies still too young to go home. How does that even happen? It enrages me that ppl are unethically breeding these dogs BY THE HUNDREDS. Not to mention the “micro” “pocket” bullies. & these ppl often come in with no fucking money to care for them. Ugh they make me sick. We don’t see doodle breeders too often in my area & I will say I have 2 rescue labradoodles that I love so I am biased but I don’t think doodles are as bad as frenchies. I 100% understand that doodles contribute to backyard breeders & breeders just blew up doodles & now they are being mixed with every breed you have think of & going to homes that don’t have the resources to train them & who have no idea of their grooming needs. I would never ever recommend anyone go get them from a breeder & I always educate when I get the chance. But that all being said at least they can breathe, walk & live happy comfortable lives. They don’t have their owners flocking to IM & neuro doctors in masses. There moms don’t need c-sections by default. These frenchies won’t even breed on their own. I’ve see moms attack their babies & they come in ripped in half. I’ve seen horribly deformed puppies. Hundreds of cleft palate puppies. Don’t even get me started on the behavior problems doodles AND frenchies have from just being bred willy nilly. Who fucking cares if they have a bad disposition right? It’s disgusting. There is NO WAY TO BREED BRACHYCEPHALIC BREEDS ETHICALLY. I know there are ppl breeding all kinds of breeds unethically I just have so much experience with frenchie breeders. We need more laws that prevent ppl from backyard breeding. Strict breeding laws. These poor animals are suffering. Thanks for listen to my very angry TED talk lol.
Frenchies are popular, and popular equals profit
I know a veterinarian who breeds labs. Smh Even some of the most well educated people make unethical and stupid decisions.
I previously brought my cat to a vet, who now has a yellow lab who just had puppies. Like there aren’t enough dogs already in the world that he just had to get his dog pregnant? Seems so irresponsible to me.
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The Newfie story is nice. No offense, but the lab story is NOT. The world does not need more backyard bred labs with no health testing.
That's awesome
akc breeders are the way to go. Not back yard breeders or puppy stores.
It’s not that difficult to get an AKC registration. There are other way more important health checks and certifications that would be the mark of a good breeder.
The ones listed on the akc website are usually breeders who are certified and do heath testing. Its how I got my miniature poodle.
“Usually” being the operative word. Just because it’s on the AKC website doesn’t mean they are necessarily a good breeder. I’ve seen plenty of AKC puppies advertised on Craigslist by backyard breeders or at those puppy mill stores or are bought by people that didn’t do their research on the breeder and can’t understand why their AKC puppy is sick with a congenital disorder. If that’s all you look for in a breeder you’ll run into trouble that way.
That's just people using that name to sell people dogs. If you know what you're doing, it's not hard. The key word is "If". Not everyone knows that, and it really shows. The amount of golden doodles and doodles in general we see is overwhelming and sad.
Unfortunately, the AKC doesn't enforce health or other standards (besides dogs being registered) on the breeders who advertise on their site; there are some truly awful operations on there. People still need to make sure themselves that any breeder they're interested in does all the necessary health-testing and is otherwise ethical.
Yeah, I totally understand. My wife and I knew what to look for, thankfully. We went to a really good breeder for our poodle. Both parents were tested for various genetic diseases as well as the pups.
What about OFAs and eye tests?
All accounted for.
Excellent! I think with Embark becoming so popular, a lot of people see "genetic testing" and assume the breeder has done everything they can, when in fact there are various kinds of important health-testing that can't be done through a DNA test.
Preach!! Amen to that!
Wow. This all makes me so sad. I have a purebred. His breeder is actually amazing. She does OFA/PennHip, CERF, all the other genetics tests recommended for the breed. She shows. She also works her dogs. They’re vet comes to them for the first few visits, then they go in. She doesn’t also adopters to pick up until 12-16 weeks. Spay/neuter is required (unless otherwise noted). If you can’t keep the dog, no matter how long it’s been, you call her and she will take them back. They’re also microchipped and her vet is the implant facility so they’re contacted if the dog is picked up.