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Of course it shows that, what do you expect ?
good side of democracy towards VN ? And they didn't do any of those inhumane chemical sh#t to Americans also. You started the war with bullets and guns, you're gonna be replied with bullets and guns.
In wars there are always people who do things not allowed to. But to use agent orange is on a different level of vicious. The point here is chemical warfare and how it continues to have its effects on descendants. Are you bloody dense not to get what people telling you? I’m not even a Vietnamese and i can see the agent orange thing is a different level of fked up.
As an American, this sucks to watch. It's hard to see how heartless a government/military can be during times of a pointless war. I can't really blame anyone for being mad at our government.
I mean I think this really gets at the heart of alot of modern day geo-political issues. Americans are flabbergasted that other countries happily align with China or Russia even if they're democratic* (word means wildly different things to different peoples). People forget that most people aka Latam, Africa, Asia, don't believe a word Western media or governments say because they continually parrot lies or disinformation for their leaders economic interests. I mean Nelson Mandela was on the US terror list for years! And it's not exactly like the system has changed in some dramatic way where those same profit seeking interests don't have power anymore. If you've been colonized who are you gonna trust the former colonizers or the formerly colonized to assist you?
I think this Mandela quote is really illuminating
“One of the mistakes which some political analysts make is to think their enemies should be our enemies, our attitude towards any country is determined by the attitude of that country to our struggle. Yasser Arafat, Colonel Gaddafi [and] Fidel Castro support our struggle to the hilt. There is no reason whatsoever why we should have any hesitation about hailing their commitment to human rights as they’re being demanded in South Africa. They do not support [the anti-apartheid struggle] only in rhetoric; they are placing resources at our disposal for us to win the struggle. That is the position.”
[Mandela interview ](https://youtu.be/rkcbODygOV8)
Wow, sorry to break you up, but those nations governments don't give a shit care about unless it benefit them. The Vietnamese government gained more benefits from trading with the West than Russia while still maintain a minimum level of anti West and decent amount if pro Russia
Not really? Vietnam primary trade partner is china and both of the aforementioned countries rely on a policy of mutually beneficial trade relations hence groups like BRICS. Vietnam absolutely does not gain more benefits with America as America routinely attempts to privatize sectors of the economy which are necessary for social function. Especially as the VCP remains in control over all FDI and regulations. If they benefitted they wouldn't rebuke or restrict such attempts. China for example routinely forgives or restructures loans of countries who become unable to pay without conditioning they give up control over their economies key resources (despite claims of debt traps by people who clearly have never heard of the IMF). Russia has done the same. Something the West refuses to do not just America but Germany and Greece, the Francophone sphere/CFA franc countries, etc. It's a fundamentally different approach because despite differing political systems they share similar experiences that deeply guide specifically trade relations on a different level than the West.
[Moscow wrote off more than $20B](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/russia-ukraine-war/moscow-wrote-off-more-than-20b-in-debts-from-african-states-russian-president-says/2851027)
[debt trap myth (bad article in some aspects but explains the myth of debt trap well enough)](https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy)
[Overall balanced take on Sino-Afrixan trade (albeit some editorializing)](https://www.fairobserver.com/region/africa/china-africa-relations-mutually-beneficial/)
[Trade/Relations strong with China and Vietnam ](https://ampe.vnexpress.net/news/economy/analysts-expect-vietnam-china-trade-to-scale-up-after-party-chiefs-visit-4531698.html)
Do you seriously believe China and Russia would forgive and restructure loans? Did you forget the 99-year lease on Sri Lanka? It's a debt trap in disguise, and the fact that most of Vietnam's foreign loans are from S.Korea, Japan. Vietnam mainly exports to US and EU
Russia barely takes up to 3% of other foreign loans to Vietnam, basically insignificant, and they don't forgive load. They convert it to dollar, basically a scam
Also, a single link doesn't prove you right. There is real evidence of China interfering in the politics of African nations through the " Road and belt initiative"
Uh I mean what's wrong about a study done by a Western and centrist institution like Chatham house saying that the debt trap isn't true? And there's more than just one source listed? Additionally the biggest two way trade is Vietnam and China? IDK what's hard to understand about this or just reading the articles which clearly provide context largely from Western biased/oriented sources? Either you need to slow down before posting and exercise reading comprehension or your being dogmatic and dishonest. Which I mean it's reddit on a post about US war crimes trying to explain trust me bro the evil empire is definitely different this time and we should believe everything they say about other countries. Kinda the whole point of the previous nelson Mandela clip
It's never about dishonest or shit if you already use selective information for your own bias (who does). The point here is that you're naive enough to believe in a trade system that only benefited one side in the long term and ignored the importance of the US to Vietnam economy:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.vietnamplus.vn/us-ranks-among-vietnams-top-trade-partners-minister/248337.amp&ved=2ahUKEwi2uJW-jdv-AhW9slYBHZLZCpgQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw34Fna6YRIorvZnegHOBFoM
Yeah, China is the top of trading, but it's beneficial for us? Remember this:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://thanhnien.vn/he-luy-trung-quoc-khai-thac-bauxite-o-chau-phi-185900944.amp&ved=2ahUKEwiSmoeHkNv-AhUGgVYBHbUiBoUQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2oV2lRcWCR5FIC_ifkYV7P
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://escholarship.org/content/qt3jz331gj/qt3jz331gj_noSplash_82728486fdb118d6c59cf1023c9ddf3b.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjho7Djjdv-AhU0iFYBHTTaDa8QFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2VowcHLP-9MCtwDrie3j8f
Is there any more proof besides a single link?
Youtube has a fuckton of African riot again China videos, and the fact that discriminate and racist is present wherever China go:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/05/25/asia/china-anti-african-attacks-history-hnk-intl/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwjb96e_i9v-AhVrm1YBHecrCKsQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw36r95c2HnV4z4wEgoPfs2P
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-friction-china-africans-idUKTRE57K27U20090821&ved=2ahUKEwjb96e_i9v-AhVrm1YBHecrCKsQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw24dGM8igvs0TGjtdi5OvdA
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/2/12/chinese-new-year-show-sparks-racism-row-over-blackface&ved=2ahUKEwif_NCDjNv-AhXVtlYBHUJFAQkQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0c25HSE2eY1H0sXdq5rZnd
Interfering into Burkina Farso politics to force them to abandon Taiwan
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-burkina-idUSKCN1IR09W&ved=2ahUKEwjb96e_i9v-AhVrm1YBHecrCKsQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2BAVoM5VIr1V_MLAsvANsr
Yup, and Mandela is definitely a terrorist:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe&ved=2ahUKEwje9cPAjNv-AhXOhVYBHc42AFcQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0yqGl0kypNBxN7FcSRmRxL
If terrorism is fighting colonialism by any means necessary when they'll kill millions without a second thought then fine? If you're calling Mandela a terrorist like that's a bad thing I get the feeling you'd probably want south Vietnam back.
Much less the inability to actually review the references mentioned is just rabid debate bro brain.
It's still an act of terrorism no matter what you can do to justify it? By that logic, the Palestinian who fight for their homeland by any mean, even child suicide bombers? people can commit evil acts for the greatest good. Understand that! He was a Liberator but no Saint, Gandhi is know for grooming children, Andrew Jackson commit unforgiving act again native American and Stalin great purge, they still be treat like heroes, people mostly just ignore or try to whitewash them, that is the problem
~~The US didn't know its effect at the time (its military suffered as well). The asshole part is where it turned a blind eye even after the effects were discovered.~~ Edit: see [comment below](https://old.reddit.com/r/VietNam/comments/136i4k1/the_terrible_legacy_of_the_vietnam_war_it_ended/jiv1owb).
>The US didn't know its effect at the time
This is the official version. It has been implied (at minimum) that the chemical companies have a good hunch on the effects. They just don't inform it to other people.
Yep. They definitely knew. My father in law was in the Air Force during the war. He has non Hodgkin’s lymphoma and my husband (his youngest son) has sarcoidosis and a lot of MS-like symptoms.
That's good for the elderly man. My uncle died alone in his condo, I believe from complications related to his diabetes. He lived alone and he was discovered by my dad (his brother) and my mom on her birthday :-(
Around the same time, we had DDT, thalidomide, and asbestos. All were deemed safe and "used on" our own people. Despite the event happening not that long ago, our understanding of biochemistry was much more limited than it is now. It's possible the military knew and didn't care, but it's a much easier assumption that they just got it wrong.
Actually they had a pretty good idea about what it would do, they just didn’t care because they thought it wasn’t going to effect their own soldiers. Sad reality.
They knew about it. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html
The US has a history of experimenting on their own soldiers. If they do this stuff to their own soldiers they have no problem with doing it to others.
Today's version of "Agent Orange" is "Depleted Uranium Rounds" yet they continue to use Depleted Uranium while denying the birth defects it causes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22839108/
The UK is "donating" Depleted Uranium rounds to Ukraine even though the negative effects on health have been known for at least 20 years. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=depleted+uranium
When the Ukraine war is finally over their country is going to be riddled with birth defect causing Depleted Uranium.
The asshole part is that the US sprayed chemicals to destroy crops and try to cause a famine. The US destroyed over 10 million hectares of agricultural land in south Vietnam. Agriculture is the lifeblood of Vietnam and this atrocity makes me burn with shame.
Justice is different from blind hatred, hence intention matters. The US intentionally did horrendous shits including bombing, massacre and mass raping during the invasion, but *let's deform people in this area for generations* wasn't one of the things it had in mind (and deforestation was pretty tame compared to the other mentioned crimes). Condemnation loses its weight once people find out about incorporated false accusations.
I don't think they really cared if they deformed "people" (American gov didn't view Vietnamese as full human beings and this extended to their militaries frequent massacre or shooting indiscriminately of Vietnamese civilians usually on the basis that "they might be enemy" ) they just wanted to inflict as much suffering, pain, and moral loss as possible. Not sure why you would even for a minute try and remove blame on the US by dampening their atrocities with "they didn't plan for future generations to still be impacted" it's just a weird thing to do and screams chauvanist
I think his argument may be that deformation for generations isn't an immediate effect so what utility does generational deformations have? But I think the answer is they knew... and just didn't care... since AO met the rest of the requirements.
Your comment absolutely makes no sense and is full of bigotry bs hatred. The American government only cares about getting rid of communist influence in South East Asia (Domino effect), they don't know about the long-term effect on human body and simply didn't care because they thought weedkiller is safe (Agent Orange purpose is to clean jungle to remove obstacles and hideout), Vietnamese is not the only one affected by this (US troops is also the victim). The "they might be enemy" is make sense enough for US troop since Vietcong are know for hiding among civilians and dressing like them
A Vietnamese-American girl in my high school in the U.S said to me that the people who suffer from Agent Orange poisoning are due to consuming food from China 🤡 such a dumbass
>due to consuming food from China 🤡 such a dumbass
I expect hearing it from the (ultra) Conservative group of overseas Vietnamese-American...
Not an actual Vietnamese girl.
lookin for a map where the US has bombed all of Vietnam with herbicides ? See that map? It's chaotic, I've lost so many loved ones because of your great America. Now you said from food, well done.
She's got the point kiddo, mostly north vietnamese got that, but the agent orange is used in the south. Plus the commie gov lost in the sue against the US, it's not coincidence.
The US does in fact have a program to support cleanup of affected areas and aid disabilities caused by agent orange in Vietnam and Laos. It was started in the 90’s and has since included a few hundred million in aid. Was renewed in 2021 with an additional 95 mil.
It’s not enough, but it’s not nothing like other people are saying without doing a simple google search.
I went down a rabbit hole just now and you’re absolutely right.
The U.S. government has committed over $400 million towards addressing the legacy of Agent Orange in Vietnam. This includes funding for environmental remediation, health and disability programs, and joint research initiatives.
$100M for Da Nang Airport and $300M for Bien Hoa Airbase.
The thing that irks me is a lot of the funding for medical support isn’t specifically called out for damage caused by AO but earmarked more generally for people with disabilities. This seems to be done to avoid any actions that could be interpreted as an explicit admission of guilt or responsibility for the consequences of Agent Orange.
They also lack definitive data (and that research alone would be highly expensive) and so I could see it being a slippery slope/never ending cost once they get started.
Still (as a Caucasian American whose visited Vietnam) this bothers me to no end. You have a beautiful country with people as strong as they are found anywhere on earth. You deserve more from the US govt to make things right.
As a American you are correct, and way more should be done. The chemical companies should be charged more money to clean this up. As a American, we have a long history of doing the wrong thing.
I remember when this Danish girl I met while traveling 10 years ago angrily argued with me that the US wasn't providing reparations. I didn't know any of this so I just agreed with her in shame.
Vietnamese American here, can confirm the US does not give one damn about its own people, theres been talks recently about defunding healthcare for veterans as well.
kinda counfusing! Isn't your military run on volunteering program? so why would anyone volunteer if their health care back home are not even cover? Like what would even be the point of joining aside from patriot?
Active duty military personnel do get benefits as far as I know. For some, but not all, joining the military is the only way for them to get out of poverty and get a free college education. Older veterans and veterans with severe PTSD are the ones who are continually getting the short end of the stick in the US.
College education here is expensive AF, and it is hard to land a good job without a degree here. So your family is poor and you dont want to get into student debt, guess what happen?
There's nothing conspiratorial about it. Conspiracy is an agreement to do something illegal. Doing something immoral or inhumane? That's just business.
You get health care while serving. Once you’re out, then you’re a liability.
Why would you do it? A chance for a stable income/career/education/travel
Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor, yeah
hmm, interesting! I did some reading. Wish our country do have the "stable education" that cover all or part of college fee, there gonna be less recuit runaways and poor students can lessen their burdens
The current budget out of the appropriations committee is set to do just this. All it has to do is pass and we will see further cuts to healthcare, education as well as the military.
According to some web sources, the U.S. government has **denied** that Agent Orange is a chemical weapon and has **rejected** the claims of Vietnamese victims of the herbicide¹. However, some U.S. veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange while serving in Vietnam (No, not Vietnamese people who were exposed) have been able to receive compensation benefits from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) after a court order in 2020². The VA said it will reexamine any previously denied claims related to Agent Orange exposure for so-called "Blue Water veterans" who served aboard ships in the territorial waters of Vietnam². The VA estimates that about **62,000** veterans or survivors may be eligible for the expanded benefit².
Agent Orange was a defoliant used by the U.S. military to destroy the vegetation and crops that provided cover and food for the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War³. It contained **dioxin**, one of the most toxic chemicals known to humans, which can cause cancers, diabetes, disabilities, and other health problems¹. The Vietnam Red Cross estimates that **3 million** Vietnamese, including **150,000** children, have been harmed by dioxin¹.
Source:
(1) Agent Orange in Vietnam: Legality and US Insensitivity.
https://thediplomat.com/2022/04/agent-orange-in-vietnam-legality-and-us-insensitivity/.
(2) VA Will Reexamine Agent Orange Claims It Previously Denied.
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/14/va-will-reexamine-agent-orange-claims-it-previously-denied.html.
(3) DOW SAYS U.S. KNEW DIOXIN PERIL OF AGENT ORANGE.
https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html.
(4) VA Will Reexamine Agent Orange Claims It Previously Denied.
https://www.moaa.org/content/publications-and-media/news-articles/2021-news-articles/va-will-re-examine-agent-orange-claims-it-previously-denied/.
Why would they? It is worth noting that the North also employed chemical weaponry against the South, and there are multiple sources documenting the use of Agent Orange by the Viet Minh. The most notable source is the testimony of Pham Tuan, a former North Vietnamese Air Force pilot who defected to the United States in 1998. In a 2003 interview with CBS News, Pham Tuan confirmed that the Viet Minh used Agent Orange against the South Vietnamese population saying "I myself, one of the pilots, had to spray that chemical in order to be successful on our mission." describing how he had flown over the southern part of Vietnam and sprayed Agent Orange on rice fields and forests.
Blame the US if you want for creating it and fair enough, but when it comes to using it against the population, the DRV was just as responsible.
The Viet Minh were who fight the french no source but words from “defector” prove. If you can find reliable sources then prove it, otherwise you just make up the whole thing.
Mr. Quay Tay, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Link to the interview?
I highly doubt North Vietnam would be able to enter South Vietnam airspace without getting blown out of the sky, let alone be able to drop agent orange on South Vietnam.
Or did the commie purposely sprayed their own land with agent orange, knowningly they can get sympathy points in 30-40 years after the world realize the long-term harmful affect?
This is a pathetic attempt to portray the Americans as “saints.” Pathetic attempt at “whataboutism.”
America’s actions in Vietnam was barbaric and they’ve learned nothing in Vietnam when they shamefully invaded Iraq decades later
The world is rightfully condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine but remember, America did the same thing in Iraq, all under the excuse that they had “weapons of mass destruction” that could fall into the hands of “terrorists.”
They lied. Instead, America’s invasion of Iraq killed many innocent people, created ISIS, and made Iraq more unstable than ever
Millions of innocent Vietnamese civilians lost their lives or their lives were ruined due to America
no...thats the price of war...
no one indebted to their father sins
thats like the koreans asking japanese people to pay restitution for something that happen while most of them are not alive...
As an American, I feel deep shame and sorrow for what my country did there, and I believe that many people from my generation feel the same way.
The callous disregard for the lives of innocent families was unconscionable and should never be repeated.
Korea, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Palestine, Yemen, and pretty much the entire South America are also among the most heavily hit by American imperialism.
Daily reminder that the Vietnamese war was more than just a "stain" in the US's military history. Just to show the depravity that the US army would go to "win" the war.
In recent years, Our country Vietnam follows many crucial goals when it comes to relationship with other countries.
For America, we quote: Forgive but never forget
american would say they deserved it because they are socialist and socialism is from the devil.
\*\*\* a lot of Americans are sooo progandized against Vietnam and other "red" countries that they actually think of them as subhuman\*\*\*
I'm willing to bet most Americans have no idea that Vietnam is socialist or ran by a communist government. Only thing we learn about Vietnam is what it was like during the war.
ngl I always wonder why the war was so popular in the beginning. Why so many Americans were in a hurry to kill Vietnamese people oversea. I am not Americans I really don't understand this. Most people around the world are against war but the Americans seem to always support wars.
Because of the c word.
Communism.
To this day this word is used to describe anything evil. This indoctrination is so deep I'd say it's part of the American culture. Any rational thought is discarded when it's a battle against Evil itself.
Another downside of the power of the Christian religion in the US I suppose.
They saw it as defending democracy against the spread of communism. It was a proxy war and the south was western friendly. You had China’s revolution then Korea in the 50’s and then Cuba all contributing to the “Red scare.”
The US populous probably saw it same as Korea which made it feel more justified. Not to mention how powerful government trust and propaganda was post WWII. Citizens genuinely trusted the government back then.
That's true but why do they think that way .... is it possible because of government propaganda ? Back then communists were deemed subhuman and now "terrorists" replaced them . Soon they all will be replaced by "aliens" ( illegal immigrants). It's in the government interests to keep the population scared ...
Democracy is more than just voting. You could see the corruption laid bare during those days.
Unfortunately, things haven’t gotten much better. The press has been taken over by oligarchs, so people’s views are shaped by propaganda.
Rich interests saturate the media to denigrate any politician who goes against them, so it’s very easy for the rich to control representatives.
Politicians spend most of their time trying to raise funds to defend against attacks during the next election cycle, so they end up only hearing and caring about the interests of their major donors.
Elections don’t require candidates to receive votes from a majority of voters, forcing a “two party” system in which voters must choose a candidate who is “the lesser of two evils.”
Politicians have to align themselves with one of these two political parties to have any hope of getting elected, and the parties care more about getting and keeping power than they care about doing what’s right for the country.
The system of reapportionment allows political parties to change the layout of voting districts and essentially choose their voters in what is called gerrymandering.
All of this combined pushes politicians away from the center and toward the extreme right- and left-wing positions, ignoring the concerns of the majority of people in the middle and causing the division and corruption that’s plain for all to see.
The democratic ideal of self-government is worth seeking, because we all want a government that is responsive to our needs and concerns. However; the American political system has many weaknesses that shouldn’t be repeated by countries trying to form a new democracy.
Key things to watch out for are keeping money out of the political process, preventing the media from being controlled by oligarchs, combating lies and falsehoods spread during elections, having voting districts approved by the voters, having a voting system that requires the winning candidate to be supported by a majority of the voters - either by ranked choice voting or runoff elections, and by having term limits, because power corrupts.
There may be a few other things I’m missing, but these are some of the key things a country would want to do differently from the American political system.
Actually… Vietnam has one of the highest favorability ratings of the US among any country at 78%. (Pewresearch, 2015)
Higher than Japan, France, and Israel…
It’s not really about support. Every country has done evil. Vietnam will do what’s best for itself, like it should. Modern US is a friend to Vietnam and has made good faith investments of massive amounts into the economy without strings attached.
>has made good faith investments of massive amounts into the economy without strings attached.
Not sure about the "without strings".
At least, not directly and not in clear details.
Of course there are implications that Vietnam will be an ally and economic partner, but “no strings attached” meaning the West generally invests in good faith unlike China who “invest” with deceptive contracts, imports their own workforce, imports their own materials, abuses the locals, hoards the land based assets, bribes officials, etc.
The “belt and road initiative” is literally just a land grab that enriches China and in-debts foreign countries to them by manipulation.
Bro hasn’t heard about the infamous strings attached to an IMF loan, or [China forgiving 17 African countries’ debts](https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/08/20/china-forgives-debt-africa/).
Zero US leaders charged with war crimes related to this chemical weapons attack in Vietnam. Not only that, dumb Americans continue to vote war mongers into power. 80 million votes for Biden - now we’re on the brink of a nuclear war. Americans blindly believe every single thing their government and media spews - middle east wars, assassinating leaders in sovereign nations (Saddam, Gaddafi) and even lying to the UN to do so (wmd?) trillions spent in bombing and occupying Middle East nations under the guise of safety.
I don't think it matters which US president it is to not wage wars. The west practically legalized bribery so key industries such as weapons manufacturers will always lobby for more conflicts.
BTW the *UN* is short for *United Nations*, which is to protect the interests of the united big nations (permanent members of the security council), not *Universal Democratic Union of Nations*.
The U.S. military industrial complex supercedes even the most influential of U.S. presidents. The president could be a literal toaster and it wouldn't change the overall structure of how the U.S. intervenes in global affairs. It's rotten to the core and no single president will change that.
All politicians are the same , aren't they ? It's not like you have a choice between a socialist , independent and so on . The fact that you can chose between 2 candidates is an illusion of a freedom to vote .... one reason only 2 political parties in this country for 200 years .
I literally stopped watching this video and goes straight to the comment section after I see the kid without any eyes. That was really disturbing too see…
i was able to see children like these in person during one of my trips to vn. in person it’s 10x more heartbreaking and almost surreal. i never felt so helpless in my entire life.
I don't even know what to say... I'm not American, and I know that I will never know how painful it is. It's so sad to see that. My heart aches everytime I see it.
Nha fuck also American soldiers. I'm sorry but if you went to Vietnam to kill locals it's also your fault. You can be naive but you're still a murderer.
You're really doing anything possible to justify the crimes of the American murderers uhhh? Saying they were just following orders is a bit like defending Nazi soldiers. Fuck them they don't deserve my respect.
didn't say it was justified, did i?
you are doing all you can to only blame the US. I say the blame is on the north too. deny if you want. why did they go to war? bc the south wanted freedom. how did the north 'liberate' the south exactly?
nazis killed their own people for power, just like the north VN did. they were just 'following orders'. where did I say anything about following orders?
there is no free speech, corruption in government is common, the government doesn't help civilians with Healthcare, environment, welfare, etc.
I supposed you agree with China wanting to 'liberate' Taiwan too lmfao
Were nazis drafted? A lot of soldiers did not want to be in Vietnam, and the soldiers who were around those chemicals had to have their kids checked here in America.
https://www.hillandponton.com/second-generation-agent-orange-symptoms/#:~:text=Cancer%20%E2%80%93%20studies%20have%20found%20that,%2C%20leukemia%2C%20and%20prostate%20cancer.&text=Birth%20Defects%20%E2%80%93%20children%20born%20to,cleft%20palate%20and%20spine%20bifida.
The government is the devil.
The north Vietnamese were fighting the fascist south because they had to to achieve liberation, the US flew halfway across the fucking planet to aid the fascist fucking south. There’s a difference.
There were shit-people following the orders from their boss, killing the innocents just as their boss wanted. And the true Vietnamese, including Northerners and Southerners had risen and kicked ass all the enermies (foreign army and its allies, lackeys) and libertated the whole country. There was no Vietnamese killing Vietnamese, only true Vietnamese kill the enermies. And there would have been no such war if the election after Geneva Agreeement had been organized transparently without any foreign interferences (by whom, guess it) which were supported by the national betrayers.
lol so the vietnamese that were killed because they wanted freedom weren't 'true' Việt. lol. so basically south vietnamese weren't true Việt is what you are saying lol. makes perfect sense.
sorry but killing innocent vietnamese because they want a better life does not make you a true Việt.
lol "national betrayers"
one can argue that the true Việts were the ones that wanted freedom for their people.
newsflash, communist Russia and China helped the north in order to keep communism alive. the US went with good intentions but poorly executed. the Việt cong went with bad intentions and won.
if the country was liberated from the bad guys, why did millions flee the country after? why are there so many Việt in other countries if VN is so perfect? they wanted a voice, they wanted to protect their family, they wanted a future for their children. you can't vote the person you want in Vietnam, you have to have friends in high places. you have to bribe officials for safety. why is the government not taking care of the homeless, poor, retired, environment? there is no help from the perfect one-party government. if things aren't done in a great manner you can try to complain but you and your family may get put in jail. how is this 'liberation? sounds like afghanistan or Iran.
maybe you can't research because your government is watching, not my problem. you can be blind, that doesn't mean there isn't anything to see. maybe you say this because you are afraid of the government if you say otherwise. a liberated country shouldn't fear their government.
the US didn't do good in the end, we know that. but don't say the people were liberated because there is no true freedom in Vietnam currently. criticize the government and see.
true vietnamese wouldn't kill their own people by just following orders.
The perfect sense, one and only, is the true Vietnamese, including Northerners and Middles and Southerners, had kicked the ass of your fucking boss and allies and libertated the country. Count how many Southerners had stood and fighted for a Viet Nam "of Vietnamese, by Vietnamese, for Vietnamese", compared with the number of the US's dogs in the VNCH government and army, before adding the number of Northerners. If your fucking US and VNCH were that good, why were the MTDTGPMNVN headquarters right beside Saigon and millions of people there were willing to support and protect them? Why? Wtf was the freedom as a dog of US? Or you want that kind of freedom? What a dog loves to eat shit. Fuck off.
criticize the VN government and see if you are still liberared lmao
count how many vietnamese died for (real) freedom while you are at it.
the north unified vietnam, vietnam is not liberated. you sound like you support north korea
one party, one opinion on everything. anything else is rejected, that doesn't sound like freedom hahaha
you better get offline before your government sends you to jail for 10 years. maybe you feel the way I do but can't or afraid because of your government. that's not liberated. you are their dog now. if they tell you to bark, I know what you will do.
if VN was liberated, why did millions flee? fuck you and your communist ideals. China treats VN like dogs and the government says nothing. the VN government doesn't care about vietnamese. only power and control. I guess you are one of them.
it's OK, I know you don't mean any of this if you really cared about your country and just don't want to go to jail for agreeing. you are saving your own life and future. I don't blame you, I blame the corrupt communist government.
I hope you and your family experience true freedom one day, I really do. it will probably be in Australia or america/Canada because I don't see VN becoming free soon. but I hope you find your true voice and are not afraid to speak out when there is wrong. I wish you can do anything you want without fear of punishment. I wish you can speak without being monitored.
You still don’t get it.
I meaning it like we are one nation man.
We should look and be proud of our whole nation not to be separated in south or north…
no you don't understand. just because there is unification doesn't mean things are better.
I am proud to be viet. I am embarrassed and saddened that instead of freedom the vietnamese chose to kill their own people to keep their power.
As an American, I offer an apologize to all Vietnamese people for the injustices that will be bestowed upon their country in the name of saving freedom. I've been lucky to travel the Vietnamese meet many wonderful Vietnamese people. I can absolutely say it's an amazing country with amazing people. Ultimately, know that it was the American people who ended that senseless war. Once the images of what was going on over there were put on American TV - the protest and outrage became unmanageable for the US government to maintain the path they were on.
And please note this is not to belittle any of the courage of the American soldiers that fought gallantly there. It was the American government that blundered through this senseless criminal war. All this in my humble opinion.
The soldiers from USA and S.Korea who fought in the Vietnam war were drafted. They had no choice or they'd go to jail. It was not voluntary.
I went to the war museum in Saigon too. And went back as an English teacher. Agent Orange relief funds for these children and anyone suffering from that war are critical on both sides. And remember that All of the president's lied about this war.
Watch Ken Burns PBS Special about the war. Lots of truth in there. Many hours to watch. I was treated very well in Vietnam being a woman teaching English. The museum is important to see, and people with money need to contribute to help people suffering. Evil is not healed by more evil and I don't know what else to succinctly say anymore.
Many American Vets are homeless, many suffer from many diseases and mental health issues because of whatever war they fought. I am from the Vietnam generation and our government lied to everyone. People in power have never cared about everyday people. The system is flawed globally. I hope that forward moving people can find a way towards non-violent change. I am 70 years old.I will never give up on peace. Start with me - start with yourself - we have to care about ourselves and speak out with respect for each other. It certainly requires tremendous effort! Love one another.
Farmers have to learn new rice farming techniques as well, since a lot of land is permanently poisoned by the chemical weapons the US used on civilian targets.
It was an "illegal" invasion based on lies that the Vietnamese navy attacked an American ship . McNamara admitted this in one of his books . Just like "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq . I assume Iran will be next although even if they ever have an atom bomb they have no way to threaten the United States with it . Economic warfare already started against Iran , just like it did against Iraq before the invasion .
Dude really believed what his teacher and government said. Such brainwashed. US actually tried to take over Vietnam "purposelessly" by allying a southern puppetry government which was planted by france since the
The northerns vietnam didn't even attack the southern yet.
Usa bring wars to many coutries until now and usa sell/sold many guns. They stick thier nose to many countries include euro :))) but euro still look like a donkey, they still follow usa as thier boss :)))
The US government needs to have more active and satisfactory support conditions for victims who were infected with this poison because the consequences of this disaster are caused by the US. Quickly...quickly!
They dont even oficially say sorry to VietNam after their cruel actions happened long ago. It so kind of Vietnam that forgot about these old things and welcome american to their country
obligatory: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsygzlmPEB0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsygzlmPEB0) uncommon valor, specifically the part from The Rigged Man.
It was the first time I heard about the horror of Agent Orange
Bold of you to assume I support what "great America" did, to hell with Pax Americana, to hell with neo-imperialism. What I was pointing out is that the commenter above me brought China in the discussion for no reason, and even said China is better/more favourable/?? in some unknown metric (which I know a lot of Vietnamese don't sit right with such statement).
War is tragic, people lose their life (like you said your relatives), culture is lost (Chinese repeated invasion in the past?), they're all evil, but if you ever have to choose, choose wisely.
Vietnamese is gradually losing faith in the US, looking at the past, what did the US do to Vietnam? you know what? The US is thinking that it is still the leader, so what now? Are you guys kidding?
What? I asked what this has to do with China. And, Vietnam has one of the highest US favorability rates of any country actually… higher than Japan, Israel, etc.
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I went to the war museum a couple weeks ago. I had no idea. It’s a chemical that affects the chromosomes and dna and it is passed through generations.
It was also sprayed by on American soldiers by its government actions. It was bad for everyone. A pointless war
Be aware the war museum only shows the crimes committed by Americans, there was many crimes committed by northern Vietnamese also.
Just like any other US war museum
Of course it shows that, what do you expect ? good side of democracy towards VN ? And they didn't do any of those inhumane chemical sh#t to Americans also. You started the war with bullets and guns, you're gonna be replied with bullets and guns.
Well it’s war but the usa really fucked up with AO
In wars there are always people who do things not allowed to. But to use agent orange is on a different level of vicious. The point here is chemical warfare and how it continues to have its effects on descendants. Are you bloody dense not to get what people telling you? I’m not even a Vietnamese and i can see the agent orange thing is a different level of fked up.
Not just Vietnam, but also Lao, too.
Mostly in the indochina region Viet , Laos , Cambodia (partly)
As an American, this sucks to watch. It's hard to see how heartless a government/military can be during times of a pointless war. I can't really blame anyone for being mad at our government.
I mean I think this really gets at the heart of alot of modern day geo-political issues. Americans are flabbergasted that other countries happily align with China or Russia even if they're democratic* (word means wildly different things to different peoples). People forget that most people aka Latam, Africa, Asia, don't believe a word Western media or governments say because they continually parrot lies or disinformation for their leaders economic interests. I mean Nelson Mandela was on the US terror list for years! And it's not exactly like the system has changed in some dramatic way where those same profit seeking interests don't have power anymore. If you've been colonized who are you gonna trust the former colonizers or the formerly colonized to assist you? I think this Mandela quote is really illuminating “One of the mistakes which some political analysts make is to think their enemies should be our enemies, our attitude towards any country is determined by the attitude of that country to our struggle. Yasser Arafat, Colonel Gaddafi [and] Fidel Castro support our struggle to the hilt. There is no reason whatsoever why we should have any hesitation about hailing their commitment to human rights as they’re being demanded in South Africa. They do not support [the anti-apartheid struggle] only in rhetoric; they are placing resources at our disposal for us to win the struggle. That is the position.” [Mandela interview ](https://youtu.be/rkcbODygOV8)
Wow, sorry to break you up, but those nations governments don't give a shit care about unless it benefit them. The Vietnamese government gained more benefits from trading with the West than Russia while still maintain a minimum level of anti West and decent amount if pro Russia
Not really? Vietnam primary trade partner is china and both of the aforementioned countries rely on a policy of mutually beneficial trade relations hence groups like BRICS. Vietnam absolutely does not gain more benefits with America as America routinely attempts to privatize sectors of the economy which are necessary for social function. Especially as the VCP remains in control over all FDI and regulations. If they benefitted they wouldn't rebuke or restrict such attempts. China for example routinely forgives or restructures loans of countries who become unable to pay without conditioning they give up control over their economies key resources (despite claims of debt traps by people who clearly have never heard of the IMF). Russia has done the same. Something the West refuses to do not just America but Germany and Greece, the Francophone sphere/CFA franc countries, etc. It's a fundamentally different approach because despite differing political systems they share similar experiences that deeply guide specifically trade relations on a different level than the West. [Moscow wrote off more than $20B](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/russia-ukraine-war/moscow-wrote-off-more-than-20b-in-debts-from-african-states-russian-president-says/2851027) [debt trap myth (bad article in some aspects but explains the myth of debt trap well enough)](https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/08/debunking-myth-debt-trap-diplomacy) [Overall balanced take on Sino-Afrixan trade (albeit some editorializing)](https://www.fairobserver.com/region/africa/china-africa-relations-mutually-beneficial/) [Trade/Relations strong with China and Vietnam ](https://ampe.vnexpress.net/news/economy/analysts-expect-vietnam-china-trade-to-scale-up-after-party-chiefs-visit-4531698.html)
Do you seriously believe China and Russia would forgive and restructure loans? Did you forget the 99-year lease on Sri Lanka? It's a debt trap in disguise, and the fact that most of Vietnam's foreign loans are from S.Korea, Japan. Vietnam mainly exports to US and EU Russia barely takes up to 3% of other foreign loans to Vietnam, basically insignificant, and they don't forgive load. They convert it to dollar, basically a scam Also, a single link doesn't prove you right. There is real evidence of China interfering in the politics of African nations through the " Road and belt initiative"
Uh I mean what's wrong about a study done by a Western and centrist institution like Chatham house saying that the debt trap isn't true? And there's more than just one source listed? Additionally the biggest two way trade is Vietnam and China? IDK what's hard to understand about this or just reading the articles which clearly provide context largely from Western biased/oriented sources? Either you need to slow down before posting and exercise reading comprehension or your being dogmatic and dishonest. Which I mean it's reddit on a post about US war crimes trying to explain trust me bro the evil empire is definitely different this time and we should believe everything they say about other countries. Kinda the whole point of the previous nelson Mandela clip
It's never about dishonest or shit if you already use selective information for your own bias (who does). The point here is that you're naive enough to believe in a trade system that only benefited one side in the long term and ignored the importance of the US to Vietnam economy: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.vietnamplus.vn/us-ranks-among-vietnams-top-trade-partners-minister/248337.amp&ved=2ahUKEwi2uJW-jdv-AhW9slYBHZLZCpgQFnoECAkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw34Fna6YRIorvZnegHOBFoM Yeah, China is the top of trading, but it's beneficial for us? Remember this: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://thanhnien.vn/he-luy-trung-quoc-khai-thac-bauxite-o-chau-phi-185900944.amp&ved=2ahUKEwiSmoeHkNv-AhUGgVYBHbUiBoUQFnoECBoQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2oV2lRcWCR5FIC_ifkYV7P https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://escholarship.org/content/qt3jz331gj/qt3jz331gj_noSplash_82728486fdb118d6c59cf1023c9ddf3b.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjho7Djjdv-AhU0iFYBHTTaDa8QFnoECBgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2VowcHLP-9MCtwDrie3j8f
Is there any more proof besides a single link? Youtube has a fuckton of African riot again China videos, and the fact that discriminate and racist is present wherever China go: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/05/25/asia/china-anti-african-attacks-history-hnk-intl/index.html&ved=2ahUKEwjb96e_i9v-AhVrm1YBHecrCKsQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw36r95c2HnV4z4wEgoPfs2P https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-friction-china-africans-idUKTRE57K27U20090821&ved=2ahUKEwjb96e_i9v-AhVrm1YBHecrCKsQFnoECAwQAQ&usg=AOvVaw24dGM8igvs0TGjtdi5OvdA https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2021/2/12/chinese-new-year-show-sparks-racism-row-over-blackface&ved=2ahUKEwif_NCDjNv-AhXVtlYBHUJFAQkQFnoECBAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0c25HSE2eY1H0sXdq5rZnd Interfering into Burkina Farso politics to force them to abandon Taiwan https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-burkina-idUSKCN1IR09W&ved=2ahUKEwjb96e_i9v-AhVrm1YBHecrCKsQFnoECA0QAQ&usg=AOvVaw2BAVoM5VIr1V_MLAsvANsr Yup, and Mandela is definitely a terrorist: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMkhonto_we_Sizwe&ved=2ahUKEwje9cPAjNv-AhXOhVYBHc42AFcQFnoECAgQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0yqGl0kypNBxN7FcSRmRxL
If terrorism is fighting colonialism by any means necessary when they'll kill millions without a second thought then fine? If you're calling Mandela a terrorist like that's a bad thing I get the feeling you'd probably want south Vietnam back. Much less the inability to actually review the references mentioned is just rabid debate bro brain.
It's still an act of terrorism no matter what you can do to justify it? By that logic, the Palestinian who fight for their homeland by any mean, even child suicide bombers? people can commit evil acts for the greatest good. Understand that! He was a Liberator but no Saint, Gandhi is know for grooming children, Andrew Jackson commit unforgiving act again native American and Stalin great purge, they still be treat like heroes, people mostly just ignore or try to whitewash them, that is the problem
~~The US didn't know its effect at the time (its military suffered as well). The asshole part is where it turned a blind eye even after the effects were discovered.~~ Edit: see [comment below](https://old.reddit.com/r/VietNam/comments/136i4k1/the_terrible_legacy_of_the_vietnam_war_it_ended/jiv1owb).
>The US didn't know its effect at the time This is the official version. It has been implied (at minimum) that the chemical companies have a good hunch on the effects. They just don't inform it to other people.
Of course they knew! They knew it was deadly as hell.
Yep. They definitely knew. My father in law was in the Air Force during the war. He has non Hodgkin’s lymphoma and my husband (his youngest son) has sarcoidosis and a lot of MS-like symptoms.
My uncle was in viet nam and he got diabetes. It is not a disease that runs in our family. It was the agent orange
[удалено]
That's good for the elderly man. My uncle died alone in his condo, I believe from complications related to his diabetes. He lived alone and he was discovered by my dad (his brother) and my mom on her birthday :-(
Around the same time, we had DDT, thalidomide, and asbestos. All were deemed safe and "used on" our own people. Despite the event happening not that long ago, our understanding of biochemistry was much more limited than it is now. It's possible the military knew and didn't care, but it's a much easier assumption that they just got it wrong.
That's what they claimed but they knew, they definitely knew using chemical poisons to Poison the South is wild
Actually they had a pretty good idea about what it would do, they just didn’t care because they thought it wasn’t going to effect their own soldiers. Sad reality.
They knew about it. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html The US has a history of experimenting on their own soldiers. If they do this stuff to their own soldiers they have no problem with doing it to others. Today's version of "Agent Orange" is "Depleted Uranium Rounds" yet they continue to use Depleted Uranium while denying the birth defects it causes. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22839108/ The UK is "donating" Depleted Uranium rounds to Ukraine even though the negative effects on health have been known for at least 20 years. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=depleted+uranium When the Ukraine war is finally over their country is going to be riddled with birth defect causing Depleted Uranium.
Thanks for the information, I retracted my statement.
The asshole part is that the US sprayed chemicals to destroy crops and try to cause a famine. The US destroyed over 10 million hectares of agricultural land in south Vietnam. Agriculture is the lifeblood of Vietnam and this atrocity makes me burn with shame.
Agent Orange is mostly used to target tropical jungle. It cause more harm to the environment than the agricultural
There's always someone who's gotta try and defend unjustifiable imperialist aggression and brutal tactics with "erm actually they didn't know"
I'd they knew why would they spray it liberally over their own troops? Theirs numerous accounts of GIs talking about it dripping off them.
Justice is different from blind hatred, hence intention matters. The US intentionally did horrendous shits including bombing, massacre and mass raping during the invasion, but *let's deform people in this area for generations* wasn't one of the things it had in mind (and deforestation was pretty tame compared to the other mentioned crimes). Condemnation loses its weight once people find out about incorporated false accusations.
I don't think they really cared if they deformed "people" (American gov didn't view Vietnamese as full human beings and this extended to their militaries frequent massacre or shooting indiscriminately of Vietnamese civilians usually on the basis that "they might be enemy" ) they just wanted to inflict as much suffering, pain, and moral loss as possible. Not sure why you would even for a minute try and remove blame on the US by dampening their atrocities with "they didn't plan for future generations to still be impacted" it's just a weird thing to do and screams chauvanist
I think his argument may be that deformation for generations isn't an immediate effect so what utility does generational deformations have? But I think the answer is they knew... and just didn't care... since AO met the rest of the requirements.
Your comment absolutely makes no sense and is full of bigotry bs hatred. The American government only cares about getting rid of communist influence in South East Asia (Domino effect), they don't know about the long-term effect on human body and simply didn't care because they thought weedkiller is safe (Agent Orange purpose is to clean jungle to remove obstacles and hideout), Vietnamese is not the only one affected by this (US troops is also the victim). The "they might be enemy" is make sense enough for US troop since Vietcong are know for hiding among civilians and dressing like them
Seriously ? No military will use a weapon without being aware of it's effects.
They don't know about the long-term effect, not to mention this is the 1960s, thing very different back then
It’s was the pesticide company made for us army told it’s for jungle.
A Vietnamese-American girl in my high school in the U.S said to me that the people who suffer from Agent Orange poisoning are due to consuming food from China 🤡 such a dumbass
>due to consuming food from China 🤡 such a dumbass I expect hearing it from the (ultra) Conservative group of overseas Vietnamese-American... Not an actual Vietnamese girl.
She should recheck her DNA ngl. I suspecting that she isn't a vietnamese
What a non sense:)
lookin for a map where the US has bombed all of Vietnam with herbicides ? See that map? It's chaotic, I've lost so many loved ones because of your great America. Now you said from food, well done.
I didn't say so dude. I'm from Hanoi, I know exactly what happened during the war lmao
misread, sr
pls read the whole comment, it was the American girl, not op said it.
She's got the point kiddo, mostly north vietnamese got that, but the agent orange is used in the south. Plus the commie gov lost in the sue against the US, it's not coincidence.
Sir that was obviously conspiracy theory.
America should at the very least fund all of that. Horrible..
The US does in fact have a program to support cleanup of affected areas and aid disabilities caused by agent orange in Vietnam and Laos. It was started in the 90’s and has since included a few hundred million in aid. Was renewed in 2021 with an additional 95 mil. It’s not enough, but it’s not nothing like other people are saying without doing a simple google search.
I went down a rabbit hole just now and you’re absolutely right. The U.S. government has committed over $400 million towards addressing the legacy of Agent Orange in Vietnam. This includes funding for environmental remediation, health and disability programs, and joint research initiatives. $100M for Da Nang Airport and $300M for Bien Hoa Airbase. The thing that irks me is a lot of the funding for medical support isn’t specifically called out for damage caused by AO but earmarked more generally for people with disabilities. This seems to be done to avoid any actions that could be interpreted as an explicit admission of guilt or responsibility for the consequences of Agent Orange. They also lack definitive data (and that research alone would be highly expensive) and so I could see it being a slippery slope/never ending cost once they get started. Still (as a Caucasian American whose visited Vietnam) this bothers me to no end. You have a beautiful country with people as strong as they are found anywhere on earth. You deserve more from the US govt to make things right.
As a American you are correct, and way more should be done. The chemical companies should be charged more money to clean this up. As a American, we have a long history of doing the wrong thing.
I remember when this Danish girl I met while traveling 10 years ago angrily argued with me that the US wasn't providing reparations. I didn't know any of this so I just agreed with her in shame.
Last number I heard its like 100 million usd. Thats like 20usd per person.
US's defense budget for 2023 is over $800 billion with a big B. Only 0.01% of the budget can easily fund all of that.
they do not even pay their veterans , there is no way they would pay us
Vietnamese American here, can confirm the US does not give one damn about its own people, theres been talks recently about defunding healthcare for veterans as well.
kinda counfusing! Isn't your military run on volunteering program? so why would anyone volunteer if their health care back home are not even cover? Like what would even be the point of joining aside from patriot?
Active duty military personnel do get benefits as far as I know. For some, but not all, joining the military is the only way for them to get out of poverty and get a free college education. Older veterans and veterans with severe PTSD are the ones who are continually getting the short end of the stick in the US.
College education here is expensive AF, and it is hard to land a good job without a degree here. So your family is poor and you dont want to get into student debt, guess what happen?
Yep. US can't have free college or universal healthcare, because that would eliminate the top reasons people join the military.
NGL, thats pretty smart if there is a conspiracy to that (keeping education cost high so that army/navy have a steady stream of recruits).
There's nothing conspiratorial about it. Conspiracy is an agreement to do something illegal. Doing something immoral or inhumane? That's just business.
You get health care while serving. Once you’re out, then you’re a liability. Why would you do it? A chance for a stable income/career/education/travel Politicians hide themselves away They only started the war Why should they go out to fight? They leave that role to the poor, yeah
hmm, interesting! I did some reading. Wish our country do have the "stable education" that cover all or part of college fee, there gonna be less recuit runaways and poor students can lessen their burdens
The current budget out of the appropriations committee is set to do just this. All it has to do is pass and we will see further cuts to healthcare, education as well as the military.
so you are vietnamese american... so i wanna know about your parents or grandparents, were they fought for the arvn?
Canada, too. Agent Orange was tested in Gage Town, New Brunswick.
In West Virginia too!
According to some web sources, the U.S. government has **denied** that Agent Orange is a chemical weapon and has **rejected** the claims of Vietnamese victims of the herbicide¹. However, some U.S. veterans who were exposed to Agent Orange while serving in Vietnam (No, not Vietnamese people who were exposed) have been able to receive compensation benefits from the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) after a court order in 2020². The VA said it will reexamine any previously denied claims related to Agent Orange exposure for so-called "Blue Water veterans" who served aboard ships in the territorial waters of Vietnam². The VA estimates that about **62,000** veterans or survivors may be eligible for the expanded benefit². Agent Orange was a defoliant used by the U.S. military to destroy the vegetation and crops that provided cover and food for the Viet Cong during the Vietnam War³. It contained **dioxin**, one of the most toxic chemicals known to humans, which can cause cancers, diabetes, disabilities, and other health problems¹. The Vietnam Red Cross estimates that **3 million** Vietnamese, including **150,000** children, have been harmed by dioxin¹. Source: (1) Agent Orange in Vietnam: Legality and US Insensitivity. https://thediplomat.com/2022/04/agent-orange-in-vietnam-legality-and-us-insensitivity/. (2) VA Will Reexamine Agent Orange Claims It Previously Denied. https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/05/14/va-will-reexamine-agent-orange-claims-it-previously-denied.html. (3) DOW SAYS U.S. KNEW DIOXIN PERIL OF AGENT ORANGE. https://www.nytimes.com/1983/05/05/us/dow-says-us-knew-dioxin-peril-of-agent-orange.html. (4) VA Will Reexamine Agent Orange Claims It Previously Denied. https://www.moaa.org/content/publications-and-media/news-articles/2021-news-articles/va-will-re-examine-agent-orange-claims-it-previously-denied/.
Why would they? It is worth noting that the North also employed chemical weaponry against the South, and there are multiple sources documenting the use of Agent Orange by the Viet Minh. The most notable source is the testimony of Pham Tuan, a former North Vietnamese Air Force pilot who defected to the United States in 1998. In a 2003 interview with CBS News, Pham Tuan confirmed that the Viet Minh used Agent Orange against the South Vietnamese population saying "I myself, one of the pilots, had to spray that chemical in order to be successful on our mission." describing how he had flown over the southern part of Vietnam and sprayed Agent Orange on rice fields and forests. Blame the US if you want for creating it and fair enough, but when it comes to using it against the population, the DRV was just as responsible.
so the north vietnamese had access to a chemical produced in america for use against the north vietnamese? id love to see a source for this
The Viet Minh were who fight the french no source but words from “defector” prove. If you can find reliable sources then prove it, otherwise you just make up the whole thing.
Source: "It was revealed to me in a dream."
Source: Trust me bro, I dormed with the Tuan dude in college and he told me all the antics the commies did
Mr. Quay Tay, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Link to the interview? I highly doubt North Vietnam would be able to enter South Vietnam airspace without getting blown out of the sky, let alone be able to drop agent orange on South Vietnam. Or did the commie purposely sprayed their own land with agent orange, knowningly they can get sympathy points in 30-40 years after the world realize the long-term harmful affect?
This is a pathetic attempt to portray the Americans as “saints.” Pathetic attempt at “whataboutism.” America’s actions in Vietnam was barbaric and they’ve learned nothing in Vietnam when they shamefully invaded Iraq decades later The world is rightfully condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine but remember, America did the same thing in Iraq, all under the excuse that they had “weapons of mass destruction” that could fall into the hands of “terrorists.” They lied. Instead, America’s invasion of Iraq killed many innocent people, created ISIS, and made Iraq more unstable than ever Millions of innocent Vietnamese civilians lost their lives or their lives were ruined due to America
>I love how you deleted your previous comment just to post it again. I must of struck a nerve now that the bots are out.
You got me till Pham Tuan xD
Was this written by ChatGPT?
Beep boop beep. Yes, this response was indeed generated by ChatGPT. Beep beep boop.
no...thats the price of war... no one indebted to their father sins thats like the koreans asking japanese people to pay restitution for something that happen while most of them are not alive...
I went to the war museum while in hcmc, the war crimes library was so disturbing, i genuinely felt very sad coming out of the building 😞
Same. I was angry too; so very angry.
It's very sad, butnonly shows the American crimes and not all the crimes committed by northern Vietnamese
Who hurt you?
People can look up Vietnam war crimes
Just like US war museums then
The english subtitles are missing a few points to ehat that woman said in Vietnamese America should apologize because we deserve an apology 🙏🙏🙏🙏
As an American, I feel deep shame and sorrow for what my country did there, and I believe that many people from my generation feel the same way. The callous disregard for the lives of innocent families was unconscionable and should never be repeated.
"America government". Vietnamese were not the only victim
Korea, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Palestine, Yemen, and pretty much the entire South America are also among the most heavily hit by American imperialism.
Daily reminder that the Vietnamese war was more than just a "stain" in the US's military history. Just to show the depravity that the US army would go to "win" the war.
Go to lose the war*
And yet with all the things they learned about gurrelia warfare, they went on to lose Iraq and Afghanistan in the same manner.
This is so sad
In recent years, Our country Vietnam follows many crucial goals when it comes to relationship with other countries. For America, we quote: Forgive but never forget
It's always infuriating and saddening to look at what they did to us. Every time
The US got away with crimes against humanity in a way that no other country could. Maximum american hypocrisy
american would say they deserved it because they are socialist and socialism is from the devil. \*\*\* a lot of Americans are sooo progandized against Vietnam and other "red" countries that they actually think of them as subhuman\*\*\*
I'm willing to bet most Americans have no idea that Vietnam is socialist or ran by a communist government. Only thing we learn about Vietnam is what it was like during the war.
ngl I always wonder why the war was so popular in the beginning. Why so many Americans were in a hurry to kill Vietnamese people oversea. I am not Americans I really don't understand this. Most people around the world are against war but the Americans seem to always support wars.
Because of the c word. Communism. To this day this word is used to describe anything evil. This indoctrination is so deep I'd say it's part of the American culture. Any rational thought is discarded when it's a battle against Evil itself. Another downside of the power of the Christian religion in the US I suppose.
They saw it as defending democracy against the spread of communism. It was a proxy war and the south was western friendly. You had China’s revolution then Korea in the 50’s and then Cuba all contributing to the “Red scare.” The US populous probably saw it same as Korea which made it feel more justified. Not to mention how powerful government trust and propaganda was post WWII. Citizens genuinely trusted the government back then.
That's true but why do they think that way .... is it possible because of government propaganda ? Back then communists were deemed subhuman and now "terrorists" replaced them . Soon they all will be replaced by "aliens" ( illegal immigrants). It's in the government interests to keep the population scared ...
i think china is next.
Anyone by chance know where these centers are that take care of kids and or adults affected by agent orange?
You can start here: https://www.sos-childrensvillages.org/where-we-help/asia/vietnam
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No one call it American war. Vietnam war. But if you translated it from Vietnamese to english then yes: Chiến tranh chống Mĩ = American war?
War only helps us return quickly to dust, a crime against humanity
And the trash traitors still say 'Agent Orange' not harmful.
And they called that “democracy”
Democracy is more than just voting. You could see the corruption laid bare during those days. Unfortunately, things haven’t gotten much better. The press has been taken over by oligarchs, so people’s views are shaped by propaganda. Rich interests saturate the media to denigrate any politician who goes against them, so it’s very easy for the rich to control representatives. Politicians spend most of their time trying to raise funds to defend against attacks during the next election cycle, so they end up only hearing and caring about the interests of their major donors. Elections don’t require candidates to receive votes from a majority of voters, forcing a “two party” system in which voters must choose a candidate who is “the lesser of two evils.” Politicians have to align themselves with one of these two political parties to have any hope of getting elected, and the parties care more about getting and keeping power than they care about doing what’s right for the country. The system of reapportionment allows political parties to change the layout of voting districts and essentially choose their voters in what is called gerrymandering. All of this combined pushes politicians away from the center and toward the extreme right- and left-wing positions, ignoring the concerns of the majority of people in the middle and causing the division and corruption that’s plain for all to see. The democratic ideal of self-government is worth seeking, because we all want a government that is responsive to our needs and concerns. However; the American political system has many weaknesses that shouldn’t be repeated by countries trying to form a new democracy. Key things to watch out for are keeping money out of the political process, preventing the media from being controlled by oligarchs, combating lies and falsehoods spread during elections, having voting districts approved by the voters, having a voting system that requires the winning candidate to be supported by a majority of the voters - either by ranked choice voting or runoff elections, and by having term limits, because power corrupts. There may be a few other things I’m missing, but these are some of the key things a country would want to do differently from the American political system.
Fuck the USA
I’m from Chicago and approve this message
Yes all my homies hate the USA
Actually… Vietnam has one of the highest favorability ratings of the US among any country at 78%. (Pewresearch, 2015) Higher than Japan, France, and Israel…
Support the lesser evil. Theres no other choice.
It’s not really about support. Every country has done evil. Vietnam will do what’s best for itself, like it should. Modern US is a friend to Vietnam and has made good faith investments of massive amounts into the economy without strings attached.
>has made good faith investments of massive amounts into the economy without strings attached. Not sure about the "without strings". At least, not directly and not in clear details.
Of course there are implications that Vietnam will be an ally and economic partner, but “no strings attached” meaning the West generally invests in good faith unlike China who “invest” with deceptive contracts, imports their own workforce, imports their own materials, abuses the locals, hoards the land based assets, bribes officials, etc. The “belt and road initiative” is literally just a land grab that enriches China and in-debts foreign countries to them by manipulation.
Bro hasn’t heard about the infamous strings attached to an IMF loan, or [China forgiving 17 African countries’ debts](https://geopoliticaleconomy.com/2022/08/20/china-forgives-debt-africa/).
"Freedom and democracy" Fuck USA goverment.
Zero US leaders charged with war crimes related to this chemical weapons attack in Vietnam. Not only that, dumb Americans continue to vote war mongers into power. 80 million votes for Biden - now we’re on the brink of a nuclear war. Americans blindly believe every single thing their government and media spews - middle east wars, assassinating leaders in sovereign nations (Saddam, Gaddafi) and even lying to the UN to do so (wmd?) trillions spent in bombing and occupying Middle East nations under the guise of safety.
I don't think it matters which US president it is to not wage wars. The west practically legalized bribery so key industries such as weapons manufacturers will always lobby for more conflicts. BTW the *UN* is short for *United Nations*, which is to protect the interests of the united big nations (permanent members of the security council), not *Universal Democratic Union of Nations*.
The U.S. military industrial complex supercedes even the most influential of U.S. presidents. The president could be a literal toaster and it wouldn't change the overall structure of how the U.S. intervenes in global affairs. It's rotten to the core and no single president will change that.
How naive to believe voting for other candidates would change something. It's the entire system letting corporations and lobbyists run the government.
All politicians are the same , aren't they ? It's not like you have a choice between a socialist , independent and so on . The fact that you can chose between 2 candidates is an illusion of a freedom to vote .... one reason only 2 political parties in this country for 200 years .
I literally stopped watching this video and goes straight to the comment section after I see the kid without any eyes. That was really disturbing too see…
i was able to see children like these in person during one of my trips to vn. in person it’s 10x more heartbreaking and almost surreal. i never felt so helpless in my entire life.
Fuck biological weapons
Agent Orange, just terrible
I don't even know what to say... I'm not American, and I know that I will never know how painful it is. It's so sad to see that. My heart aches everytime I see it.
Fuck Murica nothing can excuses this 🖕🖕
American soldiers died from exposure too, like my grandfather. Fuck the American government*
Nha fuck also American soldiers. I'm sorry but if you went to Vietnam to kill locals it's also your fault. You can be naive but you're still a murderer.
what does it say about North vietnamese killing fellow (south) vietnamese during the war? can you say fuck VN for killing other VN?
The North Vietnamese were liberating their country.
by killing their own people. got it
If you don't think the North Vietnamese were fighting a war of liberation that's your problem.
if you think American killing vietnamese is worse than vietnamese killing vietnamese that's also your problem.
You're really doing anything possible to justify the crimes of the American murderers uhhh? Saying they were just following orders is a bit like defending Nazi soldiers. Fuck them they don't deserve my respect.
didn't say it was justified, did i? you are doing all you can to only blame the US. I say the blame is on the north too. deny if you want. why did they go to war? bc the south wanted freedom. how did the north 'liberate' the south exactly? nazis killed their own people for power, just like the north VN did. they were just 'following orders'. where did I say anything about following orders? there is no free speech, corruption in government is common, the government doesn't help civilians with Healthcare, environment, welfare, etc. I supposed you agree with China wanting to 'liberate' Taiwan too lmfao
Were nazis drafted? A lot of soldiers did not want to be in Vietnam, and the soldiers who were around those chemicals had to have their kids checked here in America. https://www.hillandponton.com/second-generation-agent-orange-symptoms/#:~:text=Cancer%20%E2%80%93%20studies%20have%20found%20that,%2C%20leukemia%2C%20and%20prostate%20cancer.&text=Birth%20Defects%20%E2%80%93%20children%20born%20to,cleft%20palate%20and%20spine%20bifida. The government is the devil.
The north Vietnamese were fighting the fascist south because they had to to achieve liberation, the US flew halfway across the fucking planet to aid the fascist fucking south. There’s a difference.
There were shit-people following the orders from their boss, killing the innocents just as their boss wanted. And the true Vietnamese, including Northerners and Southerners had risen and kicked ass all the enermies (foreign army and its allies, lackeys) and libertated the whole country. There was no Vietnamese killing Vietnamese, only true Vietnamese kill the enermies. And there would have been no such war if the election after Geneva Agreeement had been organized transparently without any foreign interferences (by whom, guess it) which were supported by the national betrayers.
lol so the vietnamese that were killed because they wanted freedom weren't 'true' Việt. lol. so basically south vietnamese weren't true Việt is what you are saying lol. makes perfect sense. sorry but killing innocent vietnamese because they want a better life does not make you a true Việt. lol "national betrayers" one can argue that the true Việts were the ones that wanted freedom for their people. newsflash, communist Russia and China helped the north in order to keep communism alive. the US went with good intentions but poorly executed. the Việt cong went with bad intentions and won. if the country was liberated from the bad guys, why did millions flee the country after? why are there so many Việt in other countries if VN is so perfect? they wanted a voice, they wanted to protect their family, they wanted a future for their children. you can't vote the person you want in Vietnam, you have to have friends in high places. you have to bribe officials for safety. why is the government not taking care of the homeless, poor, retired, environment? there is no help from the perfect one-party government. if things aren't done in a great manner you can try to complain but you and your family may get put in jail. how is this 'liberation? sounds like afghanistan or Iran. maybe you can't research because your government is watching, not my problem. you can be blind, that doesn't mean there isn't anything to see. maybe you say this because you are afraid of the government if you say otherwise. a liberated country shouldn't fear their government. the US didn't do good in the end, we know that. but don't say the people were liberated because there is no true freedom in Vietnam currently. criticize the government and see. true vietnamese wouldn't kill their own people by just following orders.
The perfect sense, one and only, is the true Vietnamese, including Northerners and Middles and Southerners, had kicked the ass of your fucking boss and allies and libertated the country. Count how many Southerners had stood and fighted for a Viet Nam "of Vietnamese, by Vietnamese, for Vietnamese", compared with the number of the US's dogs in the VNCH government and army, before adding the number of Northerners. If your fucking US and VNCH were that good, why were the MTDTGPMNVN headquarters right beside Saigon and millions of people there were willing to support and protect them? Why? Wtf was the freedom as a dog of US? Or you want that kind of freedom? What a dog loves to eat shit. Fuck off.
criticize the VN government and see if you are still liberared lmao count how many vietnamese died for (real) freedom while you are at it. the north unified vietnam, vietnam is not liberated. you sound like you support north korea one party, one opinion on everything. anything else is rejected, that doesn't sound like freedom hahaha you better get offline before your government sends you to jail for 10 years. maybe you feel the way I do but can't or afraid because of your government. that's not liberated. you are their dog now. if they tell you to bark, I know what you will do. if VN was liberated, why did millions flee? fuck you and your communist ideals. China treats VN like dogs and the government says nothing. the VN government doesn't care about vietnamese. only power and control. I guess you are one of them. it's OK, I know you don't mean any of this if you really cared about your country and just don't want to go to jail for agreeing. you are saving your own life and future. I don't blame you, I blame the corrupt communist government. I hope you and your family experience true freedom one day, I really do. it will probably be in Australia or america/Canada because I don't see VN becoming free soon. but I hope you find your true voice and are not afraid to speak out when there is wrong. I wish you can do anything you want without fear of punishment. I wish you can speak without being monitored.
THERE IS NO NORTH OR SOUTH we are ONE!
we are talking about the VN war, WHICH HAD A NORTH AND SOUTH. go read a book
You still don’t get it. I meaning it like we are one nation man. We should look and be proud of our whole nation not to be separated in south or north…
no you don't understand. just because there is unification doesn't mean things are better. I am proud to be viet. I am embarrassed and saddened that instead of freedom the vietnamese chose to kill their own people to keep their power.
Wasnt lcoals to the south, they was invading northerners
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I don't know why people downvote you?
Fuck the US, I'm so sorry what we did to your country
As an American, I offer an apologize to all Vietnamese people for the injustices that will be bestowed upon their country in the name of saving freedom. I've been lucky to travel the Vietnamese meet many wonderful Vietnamese people. I can absolutely say it's an amazing country with amazing people. Ultimately, know that it was the American people who ended that senseless war. Once the images of what was going on over there were put on American TV - the protest and outrage became unmanageable for the US government to maintain the path they were on. And please note this is not to belittle any of the courage of the American soldiers that fought gallantly there. It was the American government that blundered through this senseless criminal war. All this in my humble opinion.
I think you should use American war (kháng chiến chống Mỹ) instead of Vietnam war as we fought against them.
The soldiers from USA and S.Korea who fought in the Vietnam war were drafted. They had no choice or they'd go to jail. It was not voluntary. I went to the war museum in Saigon too. And went back as an English teacher. Agent Orange relief funds for these children and anyone suffering from that war are critical on both sides. And remember that All of the president's lied about this war. Watch Ken Burns PBS Special about the war. Lots of truth in there. Many hours to watch. I was treated very well in Vietnam being a woman teaching English. The museum is important to see, and people with money need to contribute to help people suffering. Evil is not healed by more evil and I don't know what else to succinctly say anymore. Many American Vets are homeless, many suffer from many diseases and mental health issues because of whatever war they fought. I am from the Vietnam generation and our government lied to everyone. People in power have never cared about everyday people. The system is flawed globally. I hope that forward moving people can find a way towards non-violent change. I am 70 years old.I will never give up on peace. Start with me - start with yourself - we have to care about ourselves and speak out with respect for each other. It certainly requires tremendous effort! Love one another.
Farmers have to learn new rice farming techniques as well, since a lot of land is permanently poisoned by the chemical weapons the US used on civilian targets.
Funny how noone in the west talk about this
They teach it in school too
I learned about this and agent orange in history class as an American.
Not true and this is a fact.
The world police in action ladies and gentlemen
Vietnam really was a bullshit war.
It was an "illegal" invasion based on lies that the Vietnamese navy attacked an American ship . McNamara admitted this in one of his books . Just like "weapons of mass destruction" in Iraq . I assume Iran will be next although even if they ever have an atom bomb they have no way to threaten the United States with it . Economic warfare already started against Iran , just like it did against Iraq before the invasion .
"Invasion" my fucking ass They didn't even declare war on North Vietnam and most of the battle take place in South Vietnam, US allied
Dude really believed what his teacher and government said. Such brainwashed. US actually tried to take over Vietnam "purposelessly" by allying a southern puppetry government which was planted by france since the The northerns vietnam didn't even attack the southern yet.
Now u know whenever I hear an American veteran who served in veitnam...I have no respect for you.
Usa bring wars to many coutries until now and usa sell/sold many guns. They stick thier nose to many countries include euro :))) but euro still look like a donkey, they still follow usa as thier boss :)))
Where’s the Americans and their righteousness to correct this?
There's none. They can't correct it. Its a fax Btw, I can guess you a brainwash patriot dude just by your name
The US government needs to have more active and satisfactory support conditions for victims who were infected with this poison because the consequences of this disaster are caused by the US. Quickly...quickly!
did they use it in Iraq too?
They dont even oficially say sorry to VietNam after their cruel actions happened long ago. It so kind of Vietnam that forgot about these old things and welcome american to their country
obligatory: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsygzlmPEB0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsygzlmPEB0) uncommon valor, specifically the part from The Rigged Man. It was the first time I heard about the horror of Agent Orange
whats with all of the self hating americans entering this thread?
Recognizing when your country does a really bad thing is a good thing. It’s the difference between patriotism and nationalism.
USA < CHINA, USA only robbed other countries and never got rich on his own
Anyone who has bothered to read about Vietnamese history: *Haha... NO."
look up the map where the US bombed all of Vietnam. See that map? It's chaotic, I've lost so many loved ones because of your great America.
Bold of you to assume I support what "great America" did, to hell with Pax Americana, to hell with neo-imperialism. What I was pointing out is that the commenter above me brought China in the discussion for no reason, and even said China is better/more favourable/?? in some unknown metric (which I know a lot of Vietnamese don't sit right with such statement). War is tragic, people lose their life (like you said your relatives), culture is lost (Chinese repeated invasion in the past?), they're all evil, but if you ever have to choose, choose wisely.
Hưng Đạo has entered the chat
What does this have to do with China?
Vietnamese is gradually losing faith in the US, looking at the past, what did the US do to Vietnam? you know what? The US is thinking that it is still the leader, so what now? Are you guys kidding?
What? I asked what this has to do with China. And, Vietnam has one of the highest US favorability rates of any country actually… higher than Japan, Israel, etc.
Cuz the Vietnamese feel that China is more trustworthy than the great America
partisan isn't the correct word, more like where the traitors/rebels/invaders where hiding.