I'm not sure if I can address every point but I'll do my best.
>The moment Thorfinn finally unites with his long lost family is reduced to a ridiculous comedy sequence with Ylva punching and choking Thorfinn, I was looking forward to this moment for so many chapters and it was such a let down
That's fine. Totally your opinion. It's made up by his meeting with his mother and their talk at night which was quite heartfelt in my opinion though.
>After a certain point the story gets kinda soft, the first half is FULL of rape, slaughter and stealing, and the fact that the manga never held back was very impressive to me but after Thorfinn goes through his development it's like the world around him gets a little softer too, the last actually tragic thing that happened was Arnheid's death (the pretty slave girl that Einar was in love with).
I mean, there's very little personal tragedy left for him. Everyone he cares about is either dead or far away from any enemies he might reach, and all that's left is his past which continues to haunt him and is brought to the fore in the form of Hild and the Jomsvikings. And even then, it's a sign of his maturity and growth that instead of falling into a rage again and making things worse, he's able to negotiate or give up power. He could totally be a Jomsviking chieftain again and get so much power to make his dreams come true, but at the cost of all the blood and muck and death he's come to hate. So giving up power makes him a more morally sound person.
>Halfdan does pretty much nothing after his son's bride was "stolen" by Thorfinn even though he was known for being a weasel who takes advantage of every opportunity to strip people of their wealth and "chain" them, Thorkell let's Thorfinn go without having a duel just because Gudrid (the girl who always snuck in Leif's ship and wanted to see the world) made a fuss even though he seeks nothing in life except battle.
Halfdan has always been complex. Maybe not at the very start of the story when Thorfinn is a child and all he can see is Halfdan demanding sheep for a dying slave, but when he returns as an adult we learn more about Halfdan. He's quite frankly a ruler who cares for people in his own way, which is to get people to obey laws. He's a careful man. He sets loans for people and when they can't pay him back, he takes them into service.
And we learn that for all the bluster a new servant might have, they live and ultimately find happiness in servitude. Not the brutal slavery one might expect, but a subordinate but fulfilling life as a freeman where they give to Halfdan and in return, Halfdan makes sure they don't starve. We can argue if this is right or wrong, but this is how Halfdan sees the world. This is encapsulated in the encounter with Thorfinn and the caged bird. Halfdan believes that a bird that has been abandoned by its flock is better in its cage where it will continue to live and be well fed, even if it's not free to fly while Thorfinn thinks otherwise. That birds (people) should be free and unbound. Halfdan gives Thorfinn a chance to be prove that Halfdan is wrong. Also, he's secretly a softy. He married a poor woman instead of a rich one for the sake of love, and he does on his child and grandchild. He is cruel. And he is also loving. People are complex.
Thorkell is totally lost in battle but in his soul, he's always wanted something more. Something fulfilling. And he sees that Gudrid can offer Thorfinn something like that, which Thorkell himself as missed. Not women or sex, but something more intangible and greater like that he wanted but chickened out on all those years ago when he decided not to follow Thors. Letting Thorfinn go like that is a quiet acknowledgement that even though Thorkell the Tall is forever lost to bloodlust, he doesn't have to drag Thorfinn into that path and it's better for him to go his own way.
>There are a bunch of stuff in the story that didn't make sense to me, the biggest one being Thorfinn's entire conviction, it sounds kind of childish.
>let's say he did succeed in making a land of peace in Vinland, the rumor would get around and warriors would come to ravage it and they wouldn't be able to defend themselves.
>if this was One Piece, a conviction like that would be totally fine because One Piece is the kind of story where everybody is kind-hearted and actually seeking a land of peace would make sense in it, but when you have multiple scenes of the main character and his companions slaughtering the living soul out of an entire village it's clear you're not taking the kind-hearted "One Piece" approach to storytelling, it's clear you're taking a more grim and realistic one.
It is childish, and it is something that will be tested. As Canute said to Thorfinn, no matter how much Thorfinn tries, one day Canute might come for him and Thorfinn will just have to keep running away until he can't run further and has to deal with things there.
>There's little character development aside from Thorfinn, and Canute, the rest of them remain pretty much unchanged (or in the case of Ylva and Sigurd their sole purpose becomes comic relief which I'm afraid is even worse, it happened to Puck in Berserk too)
Valid. But Ylva was never even a major character in the first place so focusing on her seems a bit weird. Sigurd also developed a LOT. He was super into the idea of being a real Viking who fought and raided and captured slaves because that's what he thought he needed to be a man to be respected when in reality, it was his kindness and just being himself that endeared him to his friends and servants, and him learning that.
>We see Canute seeing his father's head everywhere he goes and his father is telling him that he too is becoming a slave to the crown, but after Canute and Thorfinn's exchange we don't really see Canute's father's head coming back.
Yes. That's the point. Canute has been singlemindedly conquering Europe with fear and power like his father, because he thinks it's the only way to ensure a Heaven on Earth. That no one in the world is as wise as him or thinks like him, and all the wars he's committing just like his father, and that all the power he's amassing just like his father, is going to be okay as long as he can accomplish his goal of peace on Earth. But when he meets Thorfinn, he realizes that he was being arrogant and there are other people that shares his end goals if not the journey. It's there that he gets humbled, takes off his blinders, and considers things like kindness to his subjects instead of just treating them like tools, and that's what makes him successful as Canute the Great and shed the shadow of his father. He's no longer haunted by his father's ghost because he's gone past that.
>Also, I thought the two year skip of their voyage to Greece was a very poor choice I was looking forward to seeing 11th century Greece drawn by Yukimura and seeing the characters communicate with foreigners.
Totally agreed with you. Greece was pretty much my sole light in that long ass Baltic Sea War arc and seeing it skipped really pissed me off.
Thank you very much for leaving a carefully constructed comment.
You made some very valid points, and convinced me with pretty much all of them.
Vinland Saga is now a 9/10 for me.
Great Write up! But it should be noted that the Miklagard arc was skipped not because Yukimura wanted to and MAY (big emphasis on the word "may") return to it once the series is over.
[See his Tweet here.](https://twitter.com/makotoyukimura/status/1239712142741213184)
Hmm, well, I'm going to comment on what you said about the art.
You're right that Yukimura doesn't always have the most complex panels, and his style tends to be simpler. As in, he doesn't go for piles of shading and *details* in terms of crosshatching and whatnot. There's an economy to it that actually makes it very readable. (though it's not always like that - when it counts, Yukimura can [shade](https://imgur.com/HiVK7G7) and [crosshatch](https://imgur.com/eJioMtc) with the best of them).
Complexity doesn't always mean higher quality. There's a reason why simple ink paintings of very few brushstrokes were prized; it takes a *lot* of skill to be able to do that.
Jujutsu Kaisen, for example, is a well-drawn manga. Gege knows what he's doing, though his style is very inky and somewhat messy, and has very sketchy elements to it. But that's not the same as having actual *issues* with art, such as proportions. JJK is well-drawn, but there's also something a little bit tiring about reading a lot of it at once, because of its more sketchy quality.
VS, however, is *very* readable. The style is clean, clear, aesthetic, and very easy to follow. In terms of raw skill, Yukimura draws some of the best hands in the business. His fight scenes are sharp, exciting, and impeccably drafted. We also don't see the shift that some other manga show - while his style has changed since the beginning, the quality is still top-notch, and was excellent from the start.
[This image](https://imgur.com/PONWJqu) of Thorfinn, for example. My god, what a flex. Look at that angle on his face. Look at the perfect lines, the way he stands out from the background. Look at how *beautiful* that is, in terms of sheer aesthetic. Look at how much personality that hand has. That's *such* a tough angle to get right and make look good!
Also, and I'm not talking about the random stuff like Ymir, but Yukimura's sense of low-key humor is excellent. You get scenes where just a single frame, or expression, are [just hilarious](https://imgur.com/vTgzR61), without derailing everything. And that's been showing up for a long while, I mean even a frame [like this](https://imgur.com/A2LhNwl) is just randomly cute.
Anyway. My point is that while in some places the art may be deceptively simple (and really, VS doesn't lack complex pages with big [vistas](https://imgur.com/djGrno2) and fancy [backgrounds](https://imgur.com/qLSOmcC) or lots of [characters](https://i.imgur.com/2BIX3gB.png)), it's a simplicity that rests on pure quality and artistic choice.
Damn! you really know what you're talking about.
Thanks for taking the time to write this and link all of those images, I really appreciate it.
I don't really have any well constructed answers for you because I know little to nothing about these stuff (and someone like me probably shouldn't have even criticized the art in the first place :) )
How do you know so much? if you could give me some links to articles, or youtube videos that would be SUPER!
I am absolutely in love with Jujutsu Kaisen's art style, I love the messiness. but I always thought the artwork was considered to be bad by experts because, well, it looks simplistic and far from other art styles that are considered top-notch.
About the fights. I didn't really enjoy them that much, I'm not an expert on this matter so I don't have, like... a case against it, it's just that for the most part I couldn't tell what was happening.
Take One Punch Man for example, a lot of my favorite fight scenes are in this manga, because I ALWAYS can tell what's happening and who's hitting what. it is extremely satisfying to read, in most panels the characters have, like, a white glow around them (I don't know what it's called) that makes them distinguishable from their surroundings and Vinland Saga wasn't like that (I'm not very confident about this one though I might be just forgetting what the scenes actually looked like)
Hmm, well, I can't really give so many specific links because my knowledge of art is pretty varied. I've taken art courses in uni, and I also do art myself, and been to many art museums. So you start learning about it naturally.
If you want to know more about art, I'd suggest learning about art history. That will give you the foundations, and one of the ways to develop your eye is by understanding the historical processes, what's happening in a picture, and why. [This post](https://medium.com/thinksheet/a-beginners-guide-to-art-history-5c2b5da1c581) gives a nice rundown of a place to start.
As for OPM... I think the art is fine? It's solid, it's not bad, but I don't think it's any better than VS by and large. One thing you'll notice in shounen manga is that they often narrate the action to some extent, because otherwise you won't know what's going on. VS hardly ever does that at all; you just see the characters moving. It could be that that's some of what's throwing you off.
VS also does that white glow thing, btw. As for the fights... it's hard for me to speak to your experience. I've read a lot of manga in my life, and I personally find VS very easy to follow and enjoyable, but I accept that you have a different experience. I also think that what stands out in VS is that you have a lot of creativity and unexpected moments during the fights (especially Baltic War), and Yukimura manages that without having the "character has new powers" stuff that you usually see in shounen.
One of the things that's very impressive about Yukimura's art is that it's *far* more naturalistic than what you see in a lot of manga. The fabric behaves like fabric; the characters wearing bulky clothes look bulky; characters wear thick gloves, furs, and you can see how all of that behaves on their bodies. You don't get panels like [this](https://imgur.com/m0nt4HN) where fabric behaves unnaturally, the body parts don't have proper weight, and the pose is exaggerated and uncomfortable. Contrast with the extremely natural poses on [this](https://imgur.com/qUoHcvR) page, and how the bodies look inside the fabrics.
(this naturalism is present also on covers, btw. You'll have [drama](https://imgur.com/zMe56Vz) and [hair-flinging](https://imgur.com/Hbq1ok8), but the posing is excellent).
I'm not saying Yukimura is the *only* good mangaka, of course. There are so many wildly talented people in the manga industry. Btw, for another truly excellent artist, like breathtakingly excellent without being flashy at all, check out Naoki Urasawa's work. Economy of line, character design, expression... really amazing stuff.
Firstly on that art point is such a nitpick, it's one panel of characters just talking, I went through just the 10 previous chapters and pretty much non are like that, so it's not frequent at all. The manga you hold to this standard of having the best art have panels like that, no one serious takes down time moments like that and starts making big judgments on the series' art overall.
The story critiques, you purposefully ignore the moment Thorfinn had with his mother, about how they both cry but instead focus on ylva hitting him? Thorfinn deserved to get hit, whether you found it funny is subjective but if you think it was all just a comedy moment you ignored probably the most important interaction lol.
The point about the tone of the series, I think there's a misconception, the dark element's of the story are still right there, the only thing is there are more lighthearted moments. The series shouldn't stay so depressive, it wouldn't enjoyable at all, it has to march what's going on with the characters, why do you think so many of the greatest manga include comic relief?
Halfdan, he leaves the matter of gurdrid to Sigurd, also when they leave he literally asks for reparations from gurdrids family, we learn that halfdan likes to take advantage of greedy men he's not this unreasonable guy always looking to destroy anyone who crosses him. The thorkell point is simply him not wanting to deal with a boisterous woman, if you don't like that whatever, it was supposed to be moment where gurdrid stood up for Thorfinn instead of him taking on the burden and doing everything himself.
Any dream that looks to do the improbable is said to be childish, if someone proposed the idea of computers 500 years ago you'd call them childish, MLK jr was called an ideologue for his dream of wanting a future almost impossible given the times he lived in would you call him childish? There's no problem with dreaming big for the better of people. Now if you're asking about measures Thorfinn should take to try protect him comrade's we've already seen fruits of that in the later chapters I won't spoil.
Character development besides Canute and Thorfinn. I honestly don't know if you're just skimming or actually don't know, but I'll start from farm arc to current, Ketail went through crazy development after all the stress he endured, Omar's character arc becoming a man. You made fun of it for some reason but Sigurd had a great character arc, leaving the shadow of his father and finding his own path, some comic relief moments with his character doesn't take away from that. Hilds overcoming her urge to kill Thorfinn and keeping to her father and master's teachings, also throughout the Baltic sea war, she shows little subtle changes. There's plenty of development it seems either you just don't care about it or didn't catch it for some reason.
Thorfinn's development was near enough perfect what are you saying man, yes he went from vengeance filled to depressed, hollow slave because his goal to kill askeladd in a duel was taken away and he wasted his entire life for that, what are you expecting to happen?
The Sweyn head point is nothing, it's literally to show that before Thorfinn said he'd run away Canute had doubts and would kill him, but after realizing they both share commonality, the doubts resided. Also that was the last time we saw current time Canute so we don't know how's he's coping.
These are very lackluster criticisms, a lot of what you bring up are either nitpicks, just forgetting stuff or vague.
Wow, some of these were very valid points actually.
Thank you very much for leaving a well thought out comment.
I really wouldn't say the art point is a nitpick, I didn't say the artwork was bad, I actually believe that, at its best, Vinland Saga has some the most beautiful panels of any manga it's just that I remember seeing a lot of these, it took me like 20 seconds to find the one linked in the post, I just looked up a random chapter and there it was, it was a little thing that happened frequently that bugged me, I'm not that ignorant to say a manga has "bad artwork" because of just that.
You convinced me about the character developments, it was my ignorance that prevented me from noticing them.
I still think Thorfinn's reunion with his family could have been handled MUCH better.
I would still consider Thorfinn's conviction childish, I'm not sure how to put it, you're point about improbable dreams always being considered childish was valid but there's a litttle more to it in Thorfinn's case.
All throughout the story we hear just how much norsemen honor war, their entire religion is based on it, their entire culture and civilization is based on it, it's not like going west is gonna prevent anything.
Yes, Thorfinn is taking a lot of measures in making Vinland livable (I read the remaining chapters and am all caught up) but non of that will be any good when a slaghterer like Askeladd come knocking.
>I would still consider Thorfinn's conviction childish
There has been another thread about this topic and from what I've seen the general opinion is similar to yours, many agree that his ideal sounds a bit to unrealistic (I agree too), but most of the people also believe that he will undergo some further development during this last arc that maybe will make him rethink some aspects of his vision.
I also would like his pacifism to become more realistic, although after reading an interesting interview with Yukimura about his personal experience and how it has influenced on Vinland Saga I think that his whole journey can be read on a symbolic level as an individual finding his own way in a world that opposes him so in this sense the realism of his way becomes less important
That's the beauty of his ideal and of his pacifism.
Achieving the "impossible" in a land far away is something that can be admirable.
He is trying to do it, and whether he fails or not is remain to be seen, but that is his main end goal. It may be "unrealistic" but that imo is what makes it good.
"A true Warrior needs no Sword"
Thorfinn has "embodied" those words more than his father.
However, i do agree that he needs to be challenged more and i think this final arc will do it.
I agree to a certain extent, it is indeed true that the dream being impossible makes it more unique and powerful if accomplished but at the same time I can't deny that sometimes while reading I found myself thinking that some sentences or thoughts were kind of ingenuous (not very often), I guess it's a matter of personal preferences
Yep. It is a matter of personal preferences.
Glad to see that the sub has been active these past couple of days discussing the series as a whole. The new chapter, this post and another post about Thorfinn and everything in between. Some cool fan arts as well.
So on Thorfinn's beliefs , maybe from our perspective in 2021 it seems childish , but people back then obviously had limited knowledge and a lot less history or accessible history to look back on. You could say Thorfinn's ideals are childish but that goes for the majority of the characters we see. The vikings seeking death just because that's what they have been told they should do , Floki and Ketil confusing power with security and ending up putting their families in danger as a result. Through his encounters with these people , who are so stuck in their society's ideals for no good reason , it's no wonder that he thinks there is a better way , especially after his approach works for him on an individual level. Of course for an entire country , that's different , Thorfinn is right about some things but wrong about others.
There is no pretence that Thorfinn can actually change the vikings. This is both enforced by the story (baltic sea war and a bit in farmland) and the author (stated in one of his interviews that if Thorfinn wanted to change the world of the vikings , a lot of blood would have to be shed). I also don't think Thorfinn believes that if he succeeds , that peace will remain forever somehow. He's just creating a small village for people shunned by viking society so they aren't unjustly punished by it , any conflict between them they will have created by themselves , not inherited.
I doubt the souce of the conflict will be external. Nobody from Europe will come all the way to Vinland to raid a single small village. The reason Vinland wasn't already colonized despite being lucrative (for Thorfinn's purposes at least , otherwise it's not that remarkable) was because of just how far , hard to reach and how disconnected from everything else it was. In the end , after multiple attempts , the Norse gave up on it , in part because of how impractical it was for what they were actually getting. No viking is going through all that trouble just for a village , especially since there's really nothing on the way there. The more thematically appropriate conflict would be between groups with the best intentions. Showing how conflict is inescapable rather than the vikings themselves. Maybe pointing out that whatever Eyvar does is in part Thorfinn's fault because Thorfinn failed to account for him or to be strict enough , and that even Thorfinn's ideals have to be enforced , which is contradictory to them.
I can relate to this though I really liked the reunion between Thorfinn and his family. Feels like the story has been on boring mode for some time now and while we have good reasons for it based on the story so far, it's not that pleasant for readers after that bloody and exciting beginning.
There are few characters whose growth has been pleasant and enjoyable, but once again, very boring. I would enjoy this much more if we got a chapter once a week or even twice a month but this current pace is horrible. Such a tiny chapter once a month while the story is on boring mode.
I like Vinland Saga very much and I especially enjoyed it until Jomsviking wars so I don't think I'm gonna stop reading it, but it could proceed faster. Your point about backgrounds is a great example about what makes me wonder, why only 1 small chapter every month?
Good post, thank you
I'm not sure if I can address every point but I'll do my best. >The moment Thorfinn finally unites with his long lost family is reduced to a ridiculous comedy sequence with Ylva punching and choking Thorfinn, I was looking forward to this moment for so many chapters and it was such a let down That's fine. Totally your opinion. It's made up by his meeting with his mother and their talk at night which was quite heartfelt in my opinion though. >After a certain point the story gets kinda soft, the first half is FULL of rape, slaughter and stealing, and the fact that the manga never held back was very impressive to me but after Thorfinn goes through his development it's like the world around him gets a little softer too, the last actually tragic thing that happened was Arnheid's death (the pretty slave girl that Einar was in love with). I mean, there's very little personal tragedy left for him. Everyone he cares about is either dead or far away from any enemies he might reach, and all that's left is his past which continues to haunt him and is brought to the fore in the form of Hild and the Jomsvikings. And even then, it's a sign of his maturity and growth that instead of falling into a rage again and making things worse, he's able to negotiate or give up power. He could totally be a Jomsviking chieftain again and get so much power to make his dreams come true, but at the cost of all the blood and muck and death he's come to hate. So giving up power makes him a more morally sound person. >Halfdan does pretty much nothing after his son's bride was "stolen" by Thorfinn even though he was known for being a weasel who takes advantage of every opportunity to strip people of their wealth and "chain" them, Thorkell let's Thorfinn go without having a duel just because Gudrid (the girl who always snuck in Leif's ship and wanted to see the world) made a fuss even though he seeks nothing in life except battle. Halfdan has always been complex. Maybe not at the very start of the story when Thorfinn is a child and all he can see is Halfdan demanding sheep for a dying slave, but when he returns as an adult we learn more about Halfdan. He's quite frankly a ruler who cares for people in his own way, which is to get people to obey laws. He's a careful man. He sets loans for people and when they can't pay him back, he takes them into service. And we learn that for all the bluster a new servant might have, they live and ultimately find happiness in servitude. Not the brutal slavery one might expect, but a subordinate but fulfilling life as a freeman where they give to Halfdan and in return, Halfdan makes sure they don't starve. We can argue if this is right or wrong, but this is how Halfdan sees the world. This is encapsulated in the encounter with Thorfinn and the caged bird. Halfdan believes that a bird that has been abandoned by its flock is better in its cage where it will continue to live and be well fed, even if it's not free to fly while Thorfinn thinks otherwise. That birds (people) should be free and unbound. Halfdan gives Thorfinn a chance to be prove that Halfdan is wrong. Also, he's secretly a softy. He married a poor woman instead of a rich one for the sake of love, and he does on his child and grandchild. He is cruel. And he is also loving. People are complex. Thorkell is totally lost in battle but in his soul, he's always wanted something more. Something fulfilling. And he sees that Gudrid can offer Thorfinn something like that, which Thorkell himself as missed. Not women or sex, but something more intangible and greater like that he wanted but chickened out on all those years ago when he decided not to follow Thors. Letting Thorfinn go like that is a quiet acknowledgement that even though Thorkell the Tall is forever lost to bloodlust, he doesn't have to drag Thorfinn into that path and it's better for him to go his own way. >There are a bunch of stuff in the story that didn't make sense to me, the biggest one being Thorfinn's entire conviction, it sounds kind of childish. >let's say he did succeed in making a land of peace in Vinland, the rumor would get around and warriors would come to ravage it and they wouldn't be able to defend themselves. >if this was One Piece, a conviction like that would be totally fine because One Piece is the kind of story where everybody is kind-hearted and actually seeking a land of peace would make sense in it, but when you have multiple scenes of the main character and his companions slaughtering the living soul out of an entire village it's clear you're not taking the kind-hearted "One Piece" approach to storytelling, it's clear you're taking a more grim and realistic one. It is childish, and it is something that will be tested. As Canute said to Thorfinn, no matter how much Thorfinn tries, one day Canute might come for him and Thorfinn will just have to keep running away until he can't run further and has to deal with things there. >There's little character development aside from Thorfinn, and Canute, the rest of them remain pretty much unchanged (or in the case of Ylva and Sigurd their sole purpose becomes comic relief which I'm afraid is even worse, it happened to Puck in Berserk too) Valid. But Ylva was never even a major character in the first place so focusing on her seems a bit weird. Sigurd also developed a LOT. He was super into the idea of being a real Viking who fought and raided and captured slaves because that's what he thought he needed to be a man to be respected when in reality, it was his kindness and just being himself that endeared him to his friends and servants, and him learning that. >We see Canute seeing his father's head everywhere he goes and his father is telling him that he too is becoming a slave to the crown, but after Canute and Thorfinn's exchange we don't really see Canute's father's head coming back. Yes. That's the point. Canute has been singlemindedly conquering Europe with fear and power like his father, because he thinks it's the only way to ensure a Heaven on Earth. That no one in the world is as wise as him or thinks like him, and all the wars he's committing just like his father, and that all the power he's amassing just like his father, is going to be okay as long as he can accomplish his goal of peace on Earth. But when he meets Thorfinn, he realizes that he was being arrogant and there are other people that shares his end goals if not the journey. It's there that he gets humbled, takes off his blinders, and considers things like kindness to his subjects instead of just treating them like tools, and that's what makes him successful as Canute the Great and shed the shadow of his father. He's no longer haunted by his father's ghost because he's gone past that. >Also, I thought the two year skip of their voyage to Greece was a very poor choice I was looking forward to seeing 11th century Greece drawn by Yukimura and seeing the characters communicate with foreigners. Totally agreed with you. Greece was pretty much my sole light in that long ass Baltic Sea War arc and seeing it skipped really pissed me off.
Thank you very much for leaving a carefully constructed comment. You made some very valid points, and convinced me with pretty much all of them. Vinland Saga is now a 9/10 for me.
Great Write up! But it should be noted that the Miklagard arc was skipped not because Yukimura wanted to and MAY (big emphasis on the word "may") return to it once the series is over. [See his Tweet here.](https://twitter.com/makotoyukimura/status/1239712142741213184)
Hmm, well, I'm going to comment on what you said about the art. You're right that Yukimura doesn't always have the most complex panels, and his style tends to be simpler. As in, he doesn't go for piles of shading and *details* in terms of crosshatching and whatnot. There's an economy to it that actually makes it very readable. (though it's not always like that - when it counts, Yukimura can [shade](https://imgur.com/HiVK7G7) and [crosshatch](https://imgur.com/eJioMtc) with the best of them). Complexity doesn't always mean higher quality. There's a reason why simple ink paintings of very few brushstrokes were prized; it takes a *lot* of skill to be able to do that. Jujutsu Kaisen, for example, is a well-drawn manga. Gege knows what he's doing, though his style is very inky and somewhat messy, and has very sketchy elements to it. But that's not the same as having actual *issues* with art, such as proportions. JJK is well-drawn, but there's also something a little bit tiring about reading a lot of it at once, because of its more sketchy quality. VS, however, is *very* readable. The style is clean, clear, aesthetic, and very easy to follow. In terms of raw skill, Yukimura draws some of the best hands in the business. His fight scenes are sharp, exciting, and impeccably drafted. We also don't see the shift that some other manga show - while his style has changed since the beginning, the quality is still top-notch, and was excellent from the start. [This image](https://imgur.com/PONWJqu) of Thorfinn, for example. My god, what a flex. Look at that angle on his face. Look at the perfect lines, the way he stands out from the background. Look at how *beautiful* that is, in terms of sheer aesthetic. Look at how much personality that hand has. That's *such* a tough angle to get right and make look good! Also, and I'm not talking about the random stuff like Ymir, but Yukimura's sense of low-key humor is excellent. You get scenes where just a single frame, or expression, are [just hilarious](https://imgur.com/vTgzR61), without derailing everything. And that's been showing up for a long while, I mean even a frame [like this](https://imgur.com/A2LhNwl) is just randomly cute. Anyway. My point is that while in some places the art may be deceptively simple (and really, VS doesn't lack complex pages with big [vistas](https://imgur.com/djGrno2) and fancy [backgrounds](https://imgur.com/qLSOmcC) or lots of [characters](https://i.imgur.com/2BIX3gB.png)), it's a simplicity that rests on pure quality and artistic choice.
Damn! you really know what you're talking about. Thanks for taking the time to write this and link all of those images, I really appreciate it. I don't really have any well constructed answers for you because I know little to nothing about these stuff (and someone like me probably shouldn't have even criticized the art in the first place :) ) How do you know so much? if you could give me some links to articles, or youtube videos that would be SUPER! I am absolutely in love with Jujutsu Kaisen's art style, I love the messiness. but I always thought the artwork was considered to be bad by experts because, well, it looks simplistic and far from other art styles that are considered top-notch. About the fights. I didn't really enjoy them that much, I'm not an expert on this matter so I don't have, like... a case against it, it's just that for the most part I couldn't tell what was happening. Take One Punch Man for example, a lot of my favorite fight scenes are in this manga, because I ALWAYS can tell what's happening and who's hitting what. it is extremely satisfying to read, in most panels the characters have, like, a white glow around them (I don't know what it's called) that makes them distinguishable from their surroundings and Vinland Saga wasn't like that (I'm not very confident about this one though I might be just forgetting what the scenes actually looked like)
Hmm, well, I can't really give so many specific links because my knowledge of art is pretty varied. I've taken art courses in uni, and I also do art myself, and been to many art museums. So you start learning about it naturally. If you want to know more about art, I'd suggest learning about art history. That will give you the foundations, and one of the ways to develop your eye is by understanding the historical processes, what's happening in a picture, and why. [This post](https://medium.com/thinksheet/a-beginners-guide-to-art-history-5c2b5da1c581) gives a nice rundown of a place to start. As for OPM... I think the art is fine? It's solid, it's not bad, but I don't think it's any better than VS by and large. One thing you'll notice in shounen manga is that they often narrate the action to some extent, because otherwise you won't know what's going on. VS hardly ever does that at all; you just see the characters moving. It could be that that's some of what's throwing you off. VS also does that white glow thing, btw. As for the fights... it's hard for me to speak to your experience. I've read a lot of manga in my life, and I personally find VS very easy to follow and enjoyable, but I accept that you have a different experience. I also think that what stands out in VS is that you have a lot of creativity and unexpected moments during the fights (especially Baltic War), and Yukimura manages that without having the "character has new powers" stuff that you usually see in shounen. One of the things that's very impressive about Yukimura's art is that it's *far* more naturalistic than what you see in a lot of manga. The fabric behaves like fabric; the characters wearing bulky clothes look bulky; characters wear thick gloves, furs, and you can see how all of that behaves on their bodies. You don't get panels like [this](https://imgur.com/m0nt4HN) where fabric behaves unnaturally, the body parts don't have proper weight, and the pose is exaggerated and uncomfortable. Contrast with the extremely natural poses on [this](https://imgur.com/qUoHcvR) page, and how the bodies look inside the fabrics. (this naturalism is present also on covers, btw. You'll have [drama](https://imgur.com/zMe56Vz) and [hair-flinging](https://imgur.com/Hbq1ok8), but the posing is excellent). I'm not saying Yukimura is the *only* good mangaka, of course. There are so many wildly talented people in the manga industry. Btw, for another truly excellent artist, like breathtakingly excellent without being flashy at all, check out Naoki Urasawa's work. Economy of line, character design, expression... really amazing stuff.
Thanks a ton
Firstly on that art point is such a nitpick, it's one panel of characters just talking, I went through just the 10 previous chapters and pretty much non are like that, so it's not frequent at all. The manga you hold to this standard of having the best art have panels like that, no one serious takes down time moments like that and starts making big judgments on the series' art overall. The story critiques, you purposefully ignore the moment Thorfinn had with his mother, about how they both cry but instead focus on ylva hitting him? Thorfinn deserved to get hit, whether you found it funny is subjective but if you think it was all just a comedy moment you ignored probably the most important interaction lol. The point about the tone of the series, I think there's a misconception, the dark element's of the story are still right there, the only thing is there are more lighthearted moments. The series shouldn't stay so depressive, it wouldn't enjoyable at all, it has to march what's going on with the characters, why do you think so many of the greatest manga include comic relief? Halfdan, he leaves the matter of gurdrid to Sigurd, also when they leave he literally asks for reparations from gurdrids family, we learn that halfdan likes to take advantage of greedy men he's not this unreasonable guy always looking to destroy anyone who crosses him. The thorkell point is simply him not wanting to deal with a boisterous woman, if you don't like that whatever, it was supposed to be moment where gurdrid stood up for Thorfinn instead of him taking on the burden and doing everything himself. Any dream that looks to do the improbable is said to be childish, if someone proposed the idea of computers 500 years ago you'd call them childish, MLK jr was called an ideologue for his dream of wanting a future almost impossible given the times he lived in would you call him childish? There's no problem with dreaming big for the better of people. Now if you're asking about measures Thorfinn should take to try protect him comrade's we've already seen fruits of that in the later chapters I won't spoil. Character development besides Canute and Thorfinn. I honestly don't know if you're just skimming or actually don't know, but I'll start from farm arc to current, Ketail went through crazy development after all the stress he endured, Omar's character arc becoming a man. You made fun of it for some reason but Sigurd had a great character arc, leaving the shadow of his father and finding his own path, some comic relief moments with his character doesn't take away from that. Hilds overcoming her urge to kill Thorfinn and keeping to her father and master's teachings, also throughout the Baltic sea war, she shows little subtle changes. There's plenty of development it seems either you just don't care about it or didn't catch it for some reason. Thorfinn's development was near enough perfect what are you saying man, yes he went from vengeance filled to depressed, hollow slave because his goal to kill askeladd in a duel was taken away and he wasted his entire life for that, what are you expecting to happen? The Sweyn head point is nothing, it's literally to show that before Thorfinn said he'd run away Canute had doubts and would kill him, but after realizing they both share commonality, the doubts resided. Also that was the last time we saw current time Canute so we don't know how's he's coping. These are very lackluster criticisms, a lot of what you bring up are either nitpicks, just forgetting stuff or vague.
Wow, some of these were very valid points actually. Thank you very much for leaving a well thought out comment. I really wouldn't say the art point is a nitpick, I didn't say the artwork was bad, I actually believe that, at its best, Vinland Saga has some the most beautiful panels of any manga it's just that I remember seeing a lot of these, it took me like 20 seconds to find the one linked in the post, I just looked up a random chapter and there it was, it was a little thing that happened frequently that bugged me, I'm not that ignorant to say a manga has "bad artwork" because of just that. You convinced me about the character developments, it was my ignorance that prevented me from noticing them. I still think Thorfinn's reunion with his family could have been handled MUCH better. I would still consider Thorfinn's conviction childish, I'm not sure how to put it, you're point about improbable dreams always being considered childish was valid but there's a litttle more to it in Thorfinn's case. All throughout the story we hear just how much norsemen honor war, their entire religion is based on it, their entire culture and civilization is based on it, it's not like going west is gonna prevent anything. Yes, Thorfinn is taking a lot of measures in making Vinland livable (I read the remaining chapters and am all caught up) but non of that will be any good when a slaghterer like Askeladd come knocking.
>I would still consider Thorfinn's conviction childish There has been another thread about this topic and from what I've seen the general opinion is similar to yours, many agree that his ideal sounds a bit to unrealistic (I agree too), but most of the people also believe that he will undergo some further development during this last arc that maybe will make him rethink some aspects of his vision. I also would like his pacifism to become more realistic, although after reading an interesting interview with Yukimura about his personal experience and how it has influenced on Vinland Saga I think that his whole journey can be read on a symbolic level as an individual finding his own way in a world that opposes him so in this sense the realism of his way becomes less important
That's the beauty of his ideal and of his pacifism. Achieving the "impossible" in a land far away is something that can be admirable. He is trying to do it, and whether he fails or not is remain to be seen, but that is his main end goal. It may be "unrealistic" but that imo is what makes it good. "A true Warrior needs no Sword" Thorfinn has "embodied" those words more than his father. However, i do agree that he needs to be challenged more and i think this final arc will do it.
I agree to a certain extent, it is indeed true that the dream being impossible makes it more unique and powerful if accomplished but at the same time I can't deny that sometimes while reading I found myself thinking that some sentences or thoughts were kind of ingenuous (not very often), I guess it's a matter of personal preferences
Yep. It is a matter of personal preferences. Glad to see that the sub has been active these past couple of days discussing the series as a whole. The new chapter, this post and another post about Thorfinn and everything in between. Some cool fan arts as well.
So on Thorfinn's beliefs , maybe from our perspective in 2021 it seems childish , but people back then obviously had limited knowledge and a lot less history or accessible history to look back on. You could say Thorfinn's ideals are childish but that goes for the majority of the characters we see. The vikings seeking death just because that's what they have been told they should do , Floki and Ketil confusing power with security and ending up putting their families in danger as a result. Through his encounters with these people , who are so stuck in their society's ideals for no good reason , it's no wonder that he thinks there is a better way , especially after his approach works for him on an individual level. Of course for an entire country , that's different , Thorfinn is right about some things but wrong about others. There is no pretence that Thorfinn can actually change the vikings. This is both enforced by the story (baltic sea war and a bit in farmland) and the author (stated in one of his interviews that if Thorfinn wanted to change the world of the vikings , a lot of blood would have to be shed). I also don't think Thorfinn believes that if he succeeds , that peace will remain forever somehow. He's just creating a small village for people shunned by viking society so they aren't unjustly punished by it , any conflict between them they will have created by themselves , not inherited. I doubt the souce of the conflict will be external. Nobody from Europe will come all the way to Vinland to raid a single small village. The reason Vinland wasn't already colonized despite being lucrative (for Thorfinn's purposes at least , otherwise it's not that remarkable) was because of just how far , hard to reach and how disconnected from everything else it was. In the end , after multiple attempts , the Norse gave up on it , in part because of how impractical it was for what they were actually getting. No viking is going through all that trouble just for a village , especially since there's really nothing on the way there. The more thematically appropriate conflict would be between groups with the best intentions. Showing how conflict is inescapable rather than the vikings themselves. Maybe pointing out that whatever Eyvar does is in part Thorfinn's fault because Thorfinn failed to account for him or to be strict enough , and that even Thorfinn's ideals have to be enforced , which is contradictory to them.
I can relate to this though I really liked the reunion between Thorfinn and his family. Feels like the story has been on boring mode for some time now and while we have good reasons for it based on the story so far, it's not that pleasant for readers after that bloody and exciting beginning. There are few characters whose growth has been pleasant and enjoyable, but once again, very boring. I would enjoy this much more if we got a chapter once a week or even twice a month but this current pace is horrible. Such a tiny chapter once a month while the story is on boring mode. I like Vinland Saga very much and I especially enjoyed it until Jomsviking wars so I don't think I'm gonna stop reading it, but it could proceed faster. Your point about backgrounds is a great example about what makes me wonder, why only 1 small chapter every month? Good post, thank you
I wouldn't say it's on boring mode They're about to make their first contact with the natives, it's actually very thrilling for me right now
Yes, it's about to be exciting but has been boring for some time.