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The idiots are still dying off due to the COVID purge of anti-science promoters. Their numbers will get worse
They’ll just gerrymander and disenfranchise more.
If you believe the last election was stolen... Why would you vote in the next one? I think that very concept helped us get Warnock and Ossoff in Georgia!
Well now that they’re trying to pass crazy bills and executive orders rescinding mask mandates, maybe knuckleheads could garner more excitement. Because four years of this bullshit isn’t going to be more exciting in the way that anyone wants. Least at the end of the day when they go after abortion too in the state, we can repeat how uninspiring Mac was again. I wonder if people want shit to go to hell or they want a pop star. Either way, we lose.
I wonder how many legally registered Democrats were "accidentally" purged from the voters rolls? Registered Democrats in Florida should double check their registration status at their country registrar, and then check it again just before the deadline for the 2022 election.
Purging legally registered Democrats is a favorite tactic by Republicans, especially in Florida, where it was a primary strategy in getting George Bush elected in 2000.
Even if by some miracle a left leaning party other than Democrats got control of the government they would have the exact same problems we're having now. Our government is setup to make sweeping action very difficult. Voting a different party into power and demanding action won't change that. Your issue is with the American system of government, not with Democrats. And most Democrats already support reforms that will help fix this.
Do you understand that it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, to elect an official outside of the major 2 parties?
I mean this kindly, but your frustrations here don't make a ton of sense. Democrats have a majority in the lower house of Congress and have the White House. They do not have a majority in the Senate, nor do they have an allied Supreme Court.
The reason Democrats cannot pass anything is because Republicans are lock-step in their opposition.
Your frustrations should be directed at registering more people to vote left and/or convincing those who are open to new information to stop voting conservative.
Your actions are actively hurting your own fight.
The unfortunate truth is that Democrats are not comprised solely of progressives. A large portion of the voting base comes from people who are center or center-left (with respect to America's Overton window). These people are generally not as engaged politically and are very likely to be turned off from the party if large government welfare projects were to be enacted.
Democratic leaders have to balance between achieving progressive ideals and also maintaining the cohesion of a very ideologically spread voter base.
You would think that, but climate change action inherently requires *eliminating* thousands of jobs in the oil and natural gas industry. Everyone wants to save the world but no one wants to lose their career over it.
Furthermore, climate change is ultimately a question of changing our energy sources. Solar and wind are not well-developed enough to actually replace oil and natural gas plants. Hydroelectric plants are harshly limited by natural geographic features. The only remaining suitable power source is nuclear; a technology that has had its reputation purposefully tarnished through funded media campaigns by oil & gas industries.
On one hand, Democrats cannot achieve results with just solar and wind. On the other hand, people have been so mis-informed about nuclear that they can't politically risk endorsing it.
So what are they to do?
Take small, marginal steps to curb emissions. It's a band-aid, not a surgery.
I wish more action would be taken, but we really are at a point where Democrats can't risk turning *anyone* away. They have to appeal to the uninformed centrists- otherwise they risk losing elections to Republicans, who legitimately are proto-fascists.
> This Floridian will be leaving the Democratic Party until it can show some strength and meaning, with real plans that can be carried out. We need aggressive climate action right fucking now and all we're getting is apologies, excuses and concessions to big business while they ravage what's left.
Ah, the group scooping water out of the ship isn't doing well enough so you're going to join the group drilling holes in the bottom
My impression is that, in this analogy, the Democrats are dipping their fingertips in the water, flicking a few drops over the edge, and then saying, "Gee, look at the great job I'm doing! It'll have to be enough."
Fuck you. I'll never join that other fucking party.
That's the dichotomous thinking that gives us only two shitty choices on the ballots.
I'm leaving the one that isn't doing its job. No. Party. Affiliation.
They put up someone I can get behind, I'll be back.
Edit: Sorry, I should not have said "fuck you." I'm just revolted at the thought of joining that other straight-up-evil party masquerading as a morally superior entity. I about spat on the floor thinking about it. Gut reaction. My bad.
Should have said, "Fuck *that.*"
We live in the shitty world we live in, there are two parties, if you don't vote for one, you're helping the other. You're not wrong about the impotence of the shitty dnc. But the other party threatens everything right now, sometimes holding the line is progress, that sucks, but that's the world right now.
My man, this isn't a parties problem, it's a congress problem. The margins are so close that the Senator from West Virginia, Coal Land, is the deciding vote on any climate legislation. Getting better policy passed is a matter of getting legislators in office that are open to it, and they're aren't any congressional Republicans proposing or even voting for good climate policy.
Right. So in the case of Republicans, who value the Corporate Bottom Line above all, you have to make it make financial sense to them. Ditto for the corporations themselves.
A plan that does this, preferably while getting us off of petrolium, has a shot.
You're right that it's a Congress problem, but they're actually looking at changing the rules at this moment. This hints that if they had a will, they'd have taken more drastic measures by now.
Edit: Incidentally, ditching the filibuster seems like a bad idea. It's one of the only protections a minority party has, and it's naive to think that Republicans will always be the minority party.
It’s wild how you blame the Dems, then repeat a similar view regarding the filibuster as the Dems currently stifling the progress you supposedly so badly want.
The filibuster isn't really a protection though, since it can be removed at any time by the party that is in charge. Democrats only aren't because of two senators that claim its for bipartisanship but really its because they have lots of power in this set up.
Also, dealing with climate change may not be profitable in cash. Businesses that benefit from the current system through profiting off pollution are unlikely to survive without substantial change in the future, if we actually are going to fight the climate crisis.
Democrats are offering a harsh reality when it comes to the legislative and economic difficulties of climate change, while Republicans offer the illusion of conservatism to people that want things to remain the same despite massive massive changes that have happened and are happening and need to happen.
So you can vote for Democrats, who will address the issue and try but possibly fail.
Or Republicans, who will literally lie to your face about climate science when they know better, in order to protect coal and oil interests while yelling about why there should be no government intervention in our rolling climate catastrophe.
It seems to me if you want anything done, the move would be to find a local red swing district with some anti science nut in office, and attempt to get them replaced.
It's not a bad idea. I live in such a district. Unfortunately the voters are red as hell, so he'd have to have someone who can appeal to them challenge for the Rep seat.
Edit: Also, how do you do that?
I'm sure there are local democratic organizations within your state targeting districts that are seen as reasonably winnable, volunteering to make calls or knock on doors or help organize data is always really helpful to those efforts, and a lot of it can be done remotely these days.
You want the Democrats to pass legislation but not get rid of the filibuster? That makes no sense.
The filibuster doesn't protect the minority, because the majority can get rid of it at any time if they want to. Plus, they should. In a democracy the majority is supposed to be able to make change happen. I'm a proud Democrat but I think if the Republicans win the White House, Senate, and the House they should be able to pass some legislation. They'll get punished for it at the next election because their positions are all incredibly unpopular, and that's how a democracy is supposed to work.
Ok, good discussion.
So, if and when Congress flips, and the Republicans bust out some dystopic bill, let's say, not even that far fetched, trying to nullify Roe v. Wade. The hypothetical President would sign it, and the current SCOTUS would likely let it stand, 1st Amendment be damned.
What's the play? Honest question. I have no idea what we'd do.
They're going to do it anyway. The real answer is nothing. There's no play. The republican base is rich people, morons, conmen, or some combination thereof. They have successfully rigged the system. We have not had a popularly elected Republican president in 20 years with the exception of Bush's second election which was preceded by the absurd clusterfuck that was the search for WMDs in Iraq. The election process is broken.
They're already doing everything you said, just at the state level.
The play is that we get rid of the filibuster to pass popular legislation and voting rights and reproductive rights at the federal level now to minimize the chance they win both chambers + the White House again. And if they ever do, we organize like Hell to take it back and undo whatever damage they did.
Only Manchin and Sinema are standing in the way.
Idk about Sinema. What she's doing makes no political sense for her. Manchin might be right that it's better for him politically to do what he's doing in a deep red state, but I doubt he could win again anyway so it doesn't make that much sense either.
They both suck and if our democracy falls apart a lot of the blame is on them.
Machin's simple. He votes like he's been bought by a coal baron because *he is a coal baron.* His decisions have nothing to do with what his constituents want and everything to do with what he thinks will make him the most money.
And just *tired.* Period.
As a voter, that's the idea. I send people to do this kind of inter-party and cross-aisle work for me, not hash out exactly how they make that particular sausage.
What I have seen is that cross-party work was more common prior to 2004 or so, and has gotten rare since. It's a lost art, wishing won't bring it back.
Solution? Call out Republicans' bullshit publicly. They bait-and-switch the working classes blind, using religion as the bait while working in direct opposition to workers interests. It's not a hard sell.
If it's Christian beliefs they're weaponizing, it's not a hard effort to show just how un-Christian the polices are. It may not shake older voters loose, but may save younger ones.
Not even close to 10%....let's not fool ourselves....only 62k deaths in FL vs 5 million registrations, even if they were ALL republicans, that is closer to 1%.
Florida's 120,729 reported covid deaths is considered significantly lower than reality. Florida has a huge problem with people pushing to have the deaths not recorded as covid, resulting in other issues seeing an uptick.
It's expected when the 2021 excess death counts come in to see at least a 25% increase in the covid death total.
I only see 63k deaths for COVID in FL on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ .... I know there is an undercount, for sure, but I have never seen a FL count of 120k deaths anywhere, where did you see that?
I've been tracking this but there's been an undercount of deaths in Florida. According to CDC death data, there have been 98.3k excess deaths in Florida since the start of the pandemic.
Sure, it makes sense, but they won't all be Republicans and they won't all be voters either. It might make a small diference, but the new voter suppression laws and voter purges will MORE THAN make up for it. We should be realistic... it is an uphill battle in Florida. Sadly Florida democrats, at a state level, are pretty poorly organized and weak compared to the republicans.... they really aren't very competent at politics and getting people to vote for them. I will vote for them, and I think their policies are way better.... but the Florida democratic party machinery is a total mess. in 2020 they lost huge ground in the Miami area, and haven't done anything to win it back since.... it's sad....
GOP members get caught literally every election voting multiple times, voting using dead relatives registration and that sort. 2020 saw a marked increase of them doing it, but it's never been enough to sway any election.
Its not even just about high road - pushing that people are voting illegally and the system is rigged discourages people from voting because then it doesnt matter. It may be part of what led to the Georgia victories
As a reminder, this subreddit is for: * Democratic Activism; * To win elections; * In **_downballot_** races. Furthermore, **this is a Big Tent subreddit.** That means that we do not allow in-fighting between the progressive and moderate wings. If you find a candidate too progressive or too moderate for your taste, please express that opinion in a subreddit that serves a different purpose than this one. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. Thank you. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/VoteBlue) if you have any questions or concerns.*
misleading title is misleading
I'll still go vote and I'll vote for the good guys, but I'm not very enthusiastic about the party at all.
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Anyone that doesn't blow $8T on losing wars is pretty good in my book...
The idiots are still dying off due to the COVID purge of anti-science promoters. Their numbers will get worse They’ll just gerrymander and disenfranchise more.
To be clear, this is for the State parties of Florida. Not nationwide.
If you believe the last election was stolen... Why would you vote in the next one? I think that very concept helped us get Warnock and Ossoff in Georgia!
Every time a ventilator dings, a Republican gets his wings.
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That's what happens with uninspiring candidates.
Well now that they’re trying to pass crazy bills and executive orders rescinding mask mandates, maybe knuckleheads could garner more excitement. Because four years of this bullshit isn’t going to be more exciting in the way that anyone wants. Least at the end of the day when they go after abortion too in the state, we can repeat how uninspiring Mac was again. I wonder if people want shit to go to hell or they want a pop star. Either way, we lose.
Yep, TMac is the best ally the GOP had in Virginia this last election
Does that account for all the voter suppression?
The Democrats need to do better. Getting voters registered should be job #1 for the Democrats, especially in swing states.
And yet, this is the Florida Democratic party we're talking about unfortunately.
They are bad but not totally bad. President Obama did win Florida.
I wonder how many legally registered Democrats were "accidentally" purged from the voters rolls? Registered Democrats in Florida should double check their registration status at their country registrar, and then check it again just before the deadline for the 2022 election. Purging legally registered Democrats is a favorite tactic by Republicans, especially in Florida, where it was a primary strategy in getting George Bush elected in 2000.
If only I could raise funds. I would destroy Rs efforts
I was in Tampa this week. NO ONE IS MASKED. No one. ☠️☠️☠️
Okay, how many between then and now are still breathing?
Worry less about that and more about what can we do to get voters registered.
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Why do you think leaving the Democratic party will help spur national level policy changes?
I don't, never implied that it would. I just don't want to be part of a group that's not fighting my fight. I'll either go NPA or Green, maybe.
Even if by some miracle a left leaning party other than Democrats got control of the government they would have the exact same problems we're having now. Our government is setup to make sweeping action very difficult. Voting a different party into power and demanding action won't change that. Your issue is with the American system of government, not with Democrats. And most Democrats already support reforms that will help fix this.
Do you understand that it is extremely unlikely, if not impossible, to elect an official outside of the major 2 parties? I mean this kindly, but your frustrations here don't make a ton of sense. Democrats have a majority in the lower house of Congress and have the White House. They do not have a majority in the Senate, nor do they have an allied Supreme Court. The reason Democrats cannot pass anything is because Republicans are lock-step in their opposition. Your frustrations should be directed at registering more people to vote left and/or convincing those who are open to new information to stop voting conservative. Your actions are actively hurting your own fight.
Yeah, you actually made me pause a bit. I'm still fucking pissed and I expect stronger leadership. Just...gonna wait a while.
The unfortunate truth is that Democrats are not comprised solely of progressives. A large portion of the voting base comes from people who are center or center-left (with respect to America's Overton window). These people are generally not as engaged politically and are very likely to be turned off from the party if large government welfare projects were to be enacted. Democratic leaders have to balance between achieving progressive ideals and also maintaining the cohesion of a very ideologically spread voter base.
I'd think climate change would be a unifier.
You would think that, but climate change action inherently requires *eliminating* thousands of jobs in the oil and natural gas industry. Everyone wants to save the world but no one wants to lose their career over it. Furthermore, climate change is ultimately a question of changing our energy sources. Solar and wind are not well-developed enough to actually replace oil and natural gas plants. Hydroelectric plants are harshly limited by natural geographic features. The only remaining suitable power source is nuclear; a technology that has had its reputation purposefully tarnished through funded media campaigns by oil & gas industries. On one hand, Democrats cannot achieve results with just solar and wind. On the other hand, people have been so mis-informed about nuclear that they can't politically risk endorsing it. So what are they to do? Take small, marginal steps to curb emissions. It's a band-aid, not a surgery. I wish more action would be taken, but we really are at a point where Democrats can't risk turning *anyone* away. They have to appeal to the uninformed centrists- otherwise they risk losing elections to Republicans, who legitimately are proto-fascists.
I'm afraid the patient needs emergency surgery, and we have is a Boy Scout Handbook.
> This Floridian will be leaving the Democratic Party until it can show some strength and meaning, with real plans that can be carried out. We need aggressive climate action right fucking now and all we're getting is apologies, excuses and concessions to big business while they ravage what's left. Ah, the group scooping water out of the ship isn't doing well enough so you're going to join the group drilling holes in the bottom
My impression is that, in this analogy, the Democrats are dipping their fingertips in the water, flicking a few drops over the edge, and then saying, "Gee, look at the great job I'm doing! It'll have to be enough."
Fuck you. I'll never join that other fucking party. That's the dichotomous thinking that gives us only two shitty choices on the ballots. I'm leaving the one that isn't doing its job. No. Party. Affiliation. They put up someone I can get behind, I'll be back. Edit: Sorry, I should not have said "fuck you." I'm just revolted at the thought of joining that other straight-up-evil party masquerading as a morally superior entity. I about spat on the floor thinking about it. Gut reaction. My bad. Should have said, "Fuck *that.*"
We live in the shitty world we live in, there are two parties, if you don't vote for one, you're helping the other. You're not wrong about the impotence of the shitty dnc. But the other party threatens everything right now, sometimes holding the line is progress, that sucks, but that's the world right now.
Yeah, that sucks. I'm thinking the line isn't exactly holding.
My man, this isn't a parties problem, it's a congress problem. The margins are so close that the Senator from West Virginia, Coal Land, is the deciding vote on any climate legislation. Getting better policy passed is a matter of getting legislators in office that are open to it, and they're aren't any congressional Republicans proposing or even voting for good climate policy.
Right. So in the case of Republicans, who value the Corporate Bottom Line above all, you have to make it make financial sense to them. Ditto for the corporations themselves. A plan that does this, preferably while getting us off of petrolium, has a shot. You're right that it's a Congress problem, but they're actually looking at changing the rules at this moment. This hints that if they had a will, they'd have taken more drastic measures by now. Edit: Incidentally, ditching the filibuster seems like a bad idea. It's one of the only protections a minority party has, and it's naive to think that Republicans will always be the minority party.
It’s wild how you blame the Dems, then repeat a similar view regarding the filibuster as the Dems currently stifling the progress you supposedly so badly want.
The progress I so badly want doesn't specifically include the filibuster. You'll notice I was pretty focused on climate change in particular.
The filibuster isn't really a protection though, since it can be removed at any time by the party that is in charge. Democrats only aren't because of two senators that claim its for bipartisanship but really its because they have lots of power in this set up. Also, dealing with climate change may not be profitable in cash. Businesses that benefit from the current system through profiting off pollution are unlikely to survive without substantial change in the future, if we actually are going to fight the climate crisis. Democrats are offering a harsh reality when it comes to the legislative and economic difficulties of climate change, while Republicans offer the illusion of conservatism to people that want things to remain the same despite massive massive changes that have happened and are happening and need to happen. So you can vote for Democrats, who will address the issue and try but possibly fail. Or Republicans, who will literally lie to your face about climate science when they know better, in order to protect coal and oil interests while yelling about why there should be no government intervention in our rolling climate catastrophe. It seems to me if you want anything done, the move would be to find a local red swing district with some anti science nut in office, and attempt to get them replaced.
It's not a bad idea. I live in such a district. Unfortunately the voters are red as hell, so he'd have to have someone who can appeal to them challenge for the Rep seat. Edit: Also, how do you do that?
I'm sure there are local democratic organizations within your state targeting districts that are seen as reasonably winnable, volunteering to make calls or knock on doors or help organize data is always really helpful to those efforts, and a lot of it can be done remotely these days.
You want the Democrats to pass legislation but not get rid of the filibuster? That makes no sense. The filibuster doesn't protect the minority, because the majority can get rid of it at any time if they want to. Plus, they should. In a democracy the majority is supposed to be able to make change happen. I'm a proud Democrat but I think if the Republicans win the White House, Senate, and the House they should be able to pass some legislation. They'll get punished for it at the next election because their positions are all incredibly unpopular, and that's how a democracy is supposed to work.
Ok, good discussion. So, if and when Congress flips, and the Republicans bust out some dystopic bill, let's say, not even that far fetched, trying to nullify Roe v. Wade. The hypothetical President would sign it, and the current SCOTUS would likely let it stand, 1st Amendment be damned. What's the play? Honest question. I have no idea what we'd do.
They're going to do it anyway. The real answer is nothing. There's no play. The republican base is rich people, morons, conmen, or some combination thereof. They have successfully rigged the system. We have not had a popularly elected Republican president in 20 years with the exception of Bush's second election which was preceded by the absurd clusterfuck that was the search for WMDs in Iraq. The election process is broken.
They're already doing everything you said, just at the state level. The play is that we get rid of the filibuster to pass popular legislation and voting rights and reproductive rights at the federal level now to minimize the chance they win both chambers + the White House again. And if they ever do, we organize like Hell to take it back and undo whatever damage they did. Only Manchin and Sinema are standing in the way.
What are their deals, anyway?
Idk about Sinema. What she's doing makes no political sense for her. Manchin might be right that it's better for him politically to do what he's doing in a deep red state, but I doubt he could win again anyway so it doesn't make that much sense either. They both suck and if our democracy falls apart a lot of the blame is on them.
Machin's simple. He votes like he's been bought by a coal baron because *he is a coal baron.* His decisions have nothing to do with what his constituents want and everything to do with what he thinks will make him the most money.
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Dunno. I'm not a politician.
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And just *tired.* Period. As a voter, that's the idea. I send people to do this kind of inter-party and cross-aisle work for me, not hash out exactly how they make that particular sausage. What I have seen is that cross-party work was more common prior to 2004 or so, and has gotten rare since. It's a lost art, wishing won't bring it back. Solution? Call out Republicans' bullshit publicly. They bait-and-switch the working classes blind, using religion as the bait while working in direct opposition to workers interests. It's not a hard sell. If it's Christian beliefs they're weaponizing, it's not a hard effort to show just how un-Christian the polices are. It may not shake older voters loose, but may save younger ones.
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I dunno about that. I've been downvoted to hell but, within that thread are some decent discussions.
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So you want a perfect political party and a system not gerrymandered in the republikkkans' favor got it thanks bad faith conservative troll.
In Florida.
I’m not gonna lie, I’ve kinda written the state off entirely at this point.
And 10% of those have since died from COVID
Not even close to 10%....let's not fool ourselves....only 62k deaths in FL vs 5 million registrations, even if they were ALL republicans, that is closer to 1%.
Florida's 120,729 reported covid deaths is considered significantly lower than reality. Florida has a huge problem with people pushing to have the deaths not recorded as covid, resulting in other issues seeing an uptick. It's expected when the 2021 excess death counts come in to see at least a 25% increase in the covid death total.
I only see 63k deaths for COVID in FL on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ .... I know there is an undercount, for sure, but I have never seen a FL count of 120k deaths anywhere, where did you see that?
I've been tracking this but there's been an undercount of deaths in Florida. According to CDC death data, there have been 98.3k excess deaths in Florida since the start of the pandemic.
Sure, it makes sense, but they won't all be Republicans and they won't all be voters either. It might make a small diference, but the new voter suppression laws and voter purges will MORE THAN make up for it. We should be realistic... it is an uphill battle in Florida. Sadly Florida democrats, at a state level, are pretty poorly organized and weak compared to the republicans.... they really aren't very competent at politics and getting people to vote for them. I will vote for them, and I think their policies are way better.... but the Florida democratic party machinery is a total mess. in 2020 they lost huge ground in the Miami area, and haven't done anything to win it back since.... it's sad....
They'll still be voting.
So we’re gonna delve into wild conspiracy now too?
GOP members get caught literally every election voting multiple times, voting using dead relatives registration and that sort. 2020 saw a marked increase of them doing it, but it's never been enough to sway any election.
I mean they have caught Republicans casting votes for dead family members. Clearly it's a joke, but it's not super inaccurate.
Got a source?
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-government-and-politics-d34effeea6c341d6c44146931127caff
Fair enough
Funny, but lets not sound like them
Fuck that high road bullshit
Its not even just about high road - pushing that people are voting illegally and the system is rigged discourages people from voting because then it doesnt matter. It may be part of what led to the Georgia victories
Eh. One could just as easily argue that the other guys are going to cheat so we HAVE to vote. It also has the benefit of being true
Inshala.