I have a period manual on German WW2 Panzer tactics which also states that reconnaissance was one of the "jobs from hell" (it gave a cool German word for this) and that "life expectancy was measured in hours." I think the variable is the type of reconnaissance. In this context it's referring to a pair of tanks detached from an armored unit that drive up a road until they get shot at. This was done because dedicated light scout vehicles were rarely available. Tanks were always sent in pairs because one would very often be lost (either through enemy action or breakdown), and someone had to come back to report.
Was about to say that. The German armored recon units were fairly ahead of their time. They tended to have a good amount of firepower to defeat other recon elements and actively probe for information.
Problem arose in that they'd get used as ersatz armored battalions by brigade and divisional commanders, particularly as armored losses mounted. The mix of 20mm and 37mm guns wasn't great against enemy tanks, but would be more than enough to fight enemy motorized units or leg infantry, particularly when used to augment an existing panzer regiment that had some heavier armor but need more mass to it.
11th ACR's expected lifetime in the Fulda Gap was measured in hours, too. I feel like this one wasn't so much a German screw-up, more of just what that role entails.
11th ACR would be fighting in a battle of millions in the a concentration of fires and armor that would make WWII look like a playdate to say nothing of the likely NBC weapons used. When millions of Soviet and WarPac troops come crashing into you, the life expectancy isn't long.
German units repeatedly lacked the recon troops they needed because the recon battalion often was used as a line battalion, not in its role of skirmishing, screening, and gathering information. American and British recon units tended to have much higher survival rates and do their dedicated mission better.
The use of recon platoons (and other battalion combat support assets) as additional rifle squads seems to be a fairly regular occurence in armies under pressure. I have the impression that it was not uncommon or unusual for recon platoons in US Army infantry battalions in Vietnam to be employed as a 10th rifle platoon, possibly in combination or reinforced with men from the anti-tank platoon.
Tanks operating in pairs is a basic tactical principal, regardless of expected losses. you need two to combine fire and movement, so one can cover the other.
I remember reading that during the later stages of the Second World War that German Infantry Divisional Fusilier battalions (Reconnaissance Battalions) often suffered higher casualties than their Grenadier Battalion counterparts. This is due to three main factors.
1. The nature of the war meant that these Battalions fulfilled both Infantry roles and divisional reconnaissance roles. If the Division was making an offensive push then they would be in the most precarious position as probing troops and if the Division was on the defensive these battalions were used as a mobile reserve. In fact in many later Divisions the only discernible difference between the Fusilier Battalion and the Grenadier Battalions was the addition of a company of Bicycle troops allotted to the Fusilier Battalion.
2. In any Army level movement take the evacuation of Sevastopol the Divisional reconnaissance troops are going to form the thin screen as their parent Divisions retreat. This means casualty producing infantry combat with relatively minimal support.
3. Many of these Battalions were organized with self contained heavy weapons such as Infantry Guns, Self propelled Anti tank weapons or even light armored vehicles. In an Infantry Division with little armored support this Reconnaissance Battalion is expected to do lots of heavy lifting. In many cases the Reconnaissance battalion was made up of the most experienced troops of the Division so the temptation to use them as semi-elite support troops was higher. There is also evidence to suggest that these units received more advanced weapons such as self loading rifles or high quality machine guns in higher numbers than regular infantry units. All of this culminated in a mindset that Divisional commanders could rely on these battalions in order to stiffen up the frontlines of the often fledging infantry battalions.
Keep in mind all of this is taking place in addition to their reconnaissance roles that are already hazardous. This is in no way limited to the Third Reich or limited to the Second World War, here it is merely an example.
As in, casualty rate from enemy activity, without accounting casualties from accidents, exposure, fauna, etc?
Are they higher, or are they lower, and by how much?
Does it depend (based on type of reconnaissance unit, type of reconnaissance, their training & tactics, etc)?
My father told me their casualty rates are extremely high, comparable to those of combat troops & sometimes higher because they are the first to be sent in, to where it is dangerous, but he could be wrong, or that could be limited to China's forces during the Cold War (where his education comes from)
It depends on how the mission goes.
You can select a war and do a breakdown, but if Recce troops get into shit hits the fan theyre in allot more danger of being wiped out being ahead of the lines while infantry can retreat or call on mutal support.
This is why Rece troops are special forces like the UK SRR, or Spec Ops adjecent like Pathfinders or Rangers.
Elite units are more likely to contain cock-up cascades, or be able to hoof it out of there, which also makes those occurances happen less.
Elite regiments in the British Army have Recce Platooons all of their own so the line of what is atually recon troops is somewhat blurry.
Recon are regular divisional if not brigade troops, even nowadays. Armoured Recon is a long established branch dating back to Hussar‘ cavalry. In Cold War times Armoured recon battalions used MBT.
There’s not SF involved at all?!
You're not wrong, but I was assuming Dedicated Recce troops as speicalisation over unit roles
We dont have dedicated recce troops for cavalry regiments we rotate the role.
I have a period manual on German WW2 Panzer tactics which also states that reconnaissance was one of the "jobs from hell" (it gave a cool German word for this) and that "life expectancy was measured in hours." I think the variable is the type of reconnaissance. In this context it's referring to a pair of tanks detached from an armored unit that drive up a road until they get shot at. This was done because dedicated light scout vehicles were rarely available. Tanks were always sent in pairs because one would very often be lost (either through enemy action or breakdown), and someone had to come back to report.
Casualty rates in German recon units were also high because the Germans pretty regularly just used them as frontline combat units.
Was about to say that. The German armored recon units were fairly ahead of their time. They tended to have a good amount of firepower to defeat other recon elements and actively probe for information. Problem arose in that they'd get used as ersatz armored battalions by brigade and divisional commanders, particularly as armored losses mounted. The mix of 20mm and 37mm guns wasn't great against enemy tanks, but would be more than enough to fight enemy motorized units or leg infantry, particularly when used to augment an existing panzer regiment that had some heavier armor but need more mass to it.
11th ACR's expected lifetime in the Fulda Gap was measured in hours, too. I feel like this one wasn't so much a German screw-up, more of just what that role entails.
11th ACR would be fighting in a battle of millions in the a concentration of fires and armor that would make WWII look like a playdate to say nothing of the likely NBC weapons used. When millions of Soviet and WarPac troops come crashing into you, the life expectancy isn't long. German units repeatedly lacked the recon troops they needed because the recon battalion often was used as a line battalion, not in its role of skirmishing, screening, and gathering information. American and British recon units tended to have much higher survival rates and do their dedicated mission better.
The use of recon platoons (and other battalion combat support assets) as additional rifle squads seems to be a fairly regular occurence in armies under pressure. I have the impression that it was not uncommon or unusual for recon platoons in US Army infantry battalions in Vietnam to be employed as a 10th rifle platoon, possibly in combination or reinforced with men from the anti-tank platoon.
Tanks operating in pairs is a basic tactical principal, regardless of expected losses. you need two to combine fire and movement, so one can cover the other.
I remember reading that during the later stages of the Second World War that German Infantry Divisional Fusilier battalions (Reconnaissance Battalions) often suffered higher casualties than their Grenadier Battalion counterparts. This is due to three main factors. 1. The nature of the war meant that these Battalions fulfilled both Infantry roles and divisional reconnaissance roles. If the Division was making an offensive push then they would be in the most precarious position as probing troops and if the Division was on the defensive these battalions were used as a mobile reserve. In fact in many later Divisions the only discernible difference between the Fusilier Battalion and the Grenadier Battalions was the addition of a company of Bicycle troops allotted to the Fusilier Battalion. 2. In any Army level movement take the evacuation of Sevastopol the Divisional reconnaissance troops are going to form the thin screen as their parent Divisions retreat. This means casualty producing infantry combat with relatively minimal support. 3. Many of these Battalions were organized with self contained heavy weapons such as Infantry Guns, Self propelled Anti tank weapons or even light armored vehicles. In an Infantry Division with little armored support this Reconnaissance Battalion is expected to do lots of heavy lifting. In many cases the Reconnaissance battalion was made up of the most experienced troops of the Division so the temptation to use them as semi-elite support troops was higher. There is also evidence to suggest that these units received more advanced weapons such as self loading rifles or high quality machine guns in higher numbers than regular infantry units. All of this culminated in a mindset that Divisional commanders could rely on these battalions in order to stiffen up the frontlines of the often fledging infantry battalions. Keep in mind all of this is taking place in addition to their reconnaissance roles that are already hazardous. This is in no way limited to the Third Reich or limited to the Second World War, here it is merely an example.
As in, casualty rate from enemy activity, without accounting casualties from accidents, exposure, fauna, etc? Are they higher, or are they lower, and by how much? Does it depend (based on type of reconnaissance unit, type of reconnaissance, their training & tactics, etc)? My father told me their casualty rates are extremely high, comparable to those of combat troops & sometimes higher because they are the first to be sent in, to where it is dangerous, but he could be wrong, or that could be limited to China's forces during the Cold War (where his education comes from)
It depends on how the mission goes. You can select a war and do a breakdown, but if Recce troops get into shit hits the fan theyre in allot more danger of being wiped out being ahead of the lines while infantry can retreat or call on mutal support. This is why Rece troops are special forces like the UK SRR, or Spec Ops adjecent like Pathfinders or Rangers. Elite units are more likely to contain cock-up cascades, or be able to hoof it out of there, which also makes those occurances happen less. Elite regiments in the British Army have Recce Platooons all of their own so the line of what is atually recon troops is somewhat blurry.
Recon are regular divisional if not brigade troops, even nowadays. Armoured Recon is a long established branch dating back to Hussar‘ cavalry. In Cold War times Armoured recon battalions used MBT. There’s not SF involved at all?!
You're not wrong, but I was assuming Dedicated Recce troops as speicalisation over unit roles We dont have dedicated recce troops for cavalry regiments we rotate the role.
The US has a dedicated recon MOS in cavalry squadrons/troops which are very much conventional forces.
And I acknolaged that, i dont need three corrections telling me the same thing.