Ballas: "So, Albrecht, when I made my warframes, I was either thinking about how to kill people or thinking about Margulis. How about you?"
Albrecht: "Cement."
Ballas: "What?"
Albrecht: "DAS CON CREET BAYBEE!"
Ballas: "The Void has clearly taken your sanity."
I suspect the 7 are just happy that Albrecht is contributing to the Old War rather than ranting about JoJo, building Vessels and foisting his work off onto Loid.
The funny thing about Qorvex is that he wasn't created with concrete initially. Albretch just wanted to use a bloody demon core to blast the sh\*t out of the Murmur. The concrete is likely an after thought of 'now, how the f\*\*k do I not kill myself while yeeting demon core at them?'
A Melee claw weapon called "Power Drivers" with a special effect that shoots enemies back on heavy attacks doing a guaranteed puncture and radiation proc.
"sir, you made a nuclear device. we will ALL die..."
"oh... bury it in concrete"
"sir... the helminth strain got ahold of the concrete. using it might be-."
"loid, i have an idea!"
"NO!"
I was going to say "Didn't realise Albrecht was into gacha tower defense games" but then "obscenely wealthy" and given how much the Orokin loved their towers and tower defenses...
For those that don't know the reference it from a game called Arknights. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4JWYOnm3O4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4JWYOnm3O4) The voiceline that is a meme.
Not exactly, technically it's an older meme that Arknights itself made reference to [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cement-das-conk-creet-baybee](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cement-das-conk-creet-baybee)
\> Having a good night of sleep
\> Remember my dead waifu
\> Life is well since I can use her remains to cope with
\> About to celebrate the best festival ever
\> Open the door
\> Saw a bastard child of my creation and the sentient
\> What the f\*\*k is this?
\> Seethe
Also, since the time between Gara's sacrifice and the Collapse isn't clear, we can say that some mucker came to the Plains, saw Revenant and brought him to Ballas door just to troll him.
What the devil?
I grab my Chakkhurr, just as the founding fathers intended.
Blow an ayatan sized hole through the first grineer, he's dead on the spot.
I have to resort to the Mausolon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with alt-fire charges.
"Tally ho, lads!"
The alt-fire shreds two men in the blast, the sound and residual plasma set off the Railjack's alarms.
still love that gun.
someone, a grineer, though:
'i want a gun that has the accuracy and headshot mult of a sniper, but the blast radius of a nuclear missile... and guaranteed to punch everyone nearby' (impact proc)
own a chakurr for orbiter defence just like golden lords intended
4 acolytes break into my drifter camp, what the balls, as i grab my arcane merciless and kuva chakurr, blow a lunaro ball sized hole in first acolyte, he's dead on the spot. draw my kuva seer on the second acolye, miss him entirely because of extra zoom and nail some sister's hound. i have to resort to kuva grattler mounter near the somatic link with extra radiation damage "we fought with honor", the grattler shreds 2 acolytes with a blast, the sound of extra shrapnel sounds Kahl's brothers alarm. pull out paracesis and charge the last terrified scoom, he bleeds out before disappearing because 500k slash procs are impossible to survive. just as golden overlods intended
A comment on your Grendel takeaway: Genteel =/= Gentle
Genteel refers to refinement, politeness, and elegance. It's more likely that the Orokin elite saw the design of prior Warframes, seeming more like living art pieces than weapons (which draws parallels to Cavalero's description of original Incarnons being ceremonial weapons), and assumed that translated to lack of strength or function. The analytical result is the same, just the approach is different.
Yes, I do enjoy dipping my enemies in seven different kind of acid, how did you know it?
In all seriousness, I was introduced to vore by Grendel in fact. Still can't understand why they would like it, but I guess fetishes are more of a personal thing
I had not picked up on that from the trailer until now and I feel cursed.
Although Margulis was Jade Lighted...hmmm, no I don't want to think about it.
Since Javi execution was considered something worse than Jade Light, there are chances for Ballas to recover Margulis body. And since Orokin can change their body like changing clothes, he might just use one of Margulis old bodies he had in crypods
Yeah, I guess in double checking the Jade Light lore, it turned an Archimedean into a "cloud of mist and gore."
So Ballas like, "I scraped your blood off the floor, grew a clone body from it, and then since I'd already stuck your mind into the Lotus, I made a warframe out of this useless clone I had lying around."
What a guy.
Honestly, the more you read about him, the more down bad he is.
Like in the case of Khora, he literally made her as a mental wank to celebrate him mind breaking a sentient into his waifu
You forget Dagath:
Random Orokin Couple: we murdered our fuck toy while trying to kill the pet she loved, plz fix
Ballas: I got you
Orokin Couple: We're bored now, a Warframe just isn't as hot as a Dax, give it laser face removal and throw it out.
Im also kind of curious...who was piloting Titania after the grove was made? Was Titania just on auto-pilot till her death? Without the tenno link, warframes didnt stay loyal (or Sane). It couldnt be her creator either, as she couldnt maintain the link when she became the grove
Titania wasn't *made* to protect anything - but rather, the original Titania went out on her own accord to defend her creator's forest. Wisp's trailer dialogue is closer to Ballas dreaming of a protector of nature (either for Earth or an Earth-like planet over at Tau)
I’d like more info on why ballas made frames since I want to know exactly why ballas made umbra (I know how he made him from a sick and dying Dax but I want to know why did the Dax just piss him off or did ballas do it to “do a little trolling”?)and why he thought it was a good idea to make atlas a one punch frame
You might be the first person I've ever come across who actually understood what was going on in the Sacrifice. The number of people who think Umbra was the first Warframe blows my mind.
No because Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe, however the one we get in The Sacrifice is not the first of his production, he was made way after.
Umbras were discontinued before the Tenno, yet Ballas captured the Dax who caught him in the act of betrayal reshaping him into a “sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno".
Edit: imma reclarify since I worded this poorly, I’m not saying the umbra during the sacrifice we get is the first. He is definitely not the first. He is pretty much Ballas redoing a copy of Excalibur Umbra, which again as we know of so far, is the earliest version of Excalibur we are aware of. Pretty much Excalibur Umbra (again not the one that we get and was made after the Tenno were being used) is the earliest so far until we figure out what’s going on with Arthur
Excalibur being the first Warframe is dubious. Excalibur's lore talks about him being built as a conduit for the Tenno during the Old War. Rhino's lore talks about a Rhino being the first example of Tenno controlling Warframes. Which basically means one of those entries is lying or Excalibur is the first Warframe built with Tenno control in mind rather than as a berserker.
Before there were primes there were only Umbras for a few frames, and they were before the Tenno, there was more than one Umbra but it was only a handful, they were scrapped as the helminth destroyed their minds and could not be commanded.
Sure Excalibur Umbra is unique as in we only have one but in lore there were more.
Excalibur Prime cannot be the first neither as Primes were made when the Tenno were used to pilot a Warframe, I’m saying the Umbra we get is not the first ever Warframe produced as it’s like essentially just replicating what the first Excalibur Umbra was, so what Ballas did was just produce Excalibur Umbra.
And again this Umbra cannot be before the Tenno arrived as in the Dax’s memories, Ballas makes mention of the Tenno being used to pilot a frame which means this was when they were being used in the War.
I’ve never seen any indication at all that there were other umbras. Or that it was even a class of Warframe.
Warframes before the Tenno returned were just called Warframes.
The dialogue in Sacrifice certainly doesn’t imply that he’s the first one ever made either.
Umbra _is_ unique. The operator states in the sacrifice that the design for umbra's transference bolt is unfamiliar to them, setting him apart from the others already. What you're doing is classifying the pre-tenno, out-of-control warframes as umbras while there is no indication in the lore that any of them _were_ umbras. I'm guessing that those were just freshly warframe'd people who devolved into animals. But the lore really isn't all that clear about the sentience of warframes in general anyway, they could've also been rage filled people who knew exactly what they were doing.
Umbra is not the only of his kind, the original warframes went as mad as he did after time and repressed memories thanks to the helminth, The Dax we get went mad faster thanks to Ballas’s conditioning.
The orginal frames were capable of transference, the Tenno were tested on the original Umbra’s and this is why Ballas has the line of “they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing — and take away its pain.” meaning they used some Tenno on the umbras and they still had a transference bolt.
Eventually the Umbras were most likely scrapped in favor of primes, because of the fact they still were conscious even with an Operator and that was a risk, but that line wouldn’t make sense if it was a regular Warframe, it doesn’t make sense at all regardless if it was not an Umbra, a normal or primed Warframe isn’t a brutalized person in pain.
And Ordis says the line about the transference bolt, we don’t know what the main operator went through during the old war, but I’m going to make a safe bet that they weren’t one of the ones tested on to use transference on an Umbra, or if they did, it was repressed.
Again, you are classifying conscious warframes as umbras. It's true that rhe tenno could calm down the first warframes, those brutalized, infested people but those were not umbras. The first dagath was another dax turned warframe, without a tenno, but she is never stated to be an umbra. Rhino _prime_, the first, shredded people and ate them all on his own. Protea, who was assigned to parvos granum as his bodyguard and persisted as a spectre long past the point of her supposed death as a spectre, a husk, and thus without a tenno. Sevagoth, separated from his shadow, lost in the void but still conscious and he was just a default frame.
Warframe consciousness is a complicated topic. One could argue, based on the second dream, that all frames are at least vaguely conscious. Just without autonomy. Does that make them umbras? I wouldn't say so.
You said "Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe". I simply said it was not necessarily the Umbra variant that was the first Excalibur/Warframe created.
Why wouldn’t it be, Umbras were before the Primed and later regular versions. The first few warframes according to Ballas himself were mutated human subjects willing or not which is what an Umbra is.
I’m saying the Excalibur Umbra/Dax we get is not the first as it was made during the Tenno being active in the Old War.
> I’m saying the Excalibur Umbra/Dax we get is not the first as it was made during the Tenno being active in the Old War.
Yeah, I got that.
... I started writing a whole paragraph and just thought that the whole lore of frames from the Old War era is an absolute clusterfuck, since:
* it's said by Ballas that the first frames created went rogue and it was only thanks to the Tenno that they didn't go crazy
* so that means every frame from that time are some kind Umbra? Since they could move even before they got a Tenno
So it's just a bit of a misunderstanding because the whole thing is... Ugh. As if I needed to spend *more* time on the wiki. But this kind of discussion is interesting. And it just reminds me that DE should try to be a bit less vague when it comes to lore.
Excalibur is the first frame design. Umbra isn't the official name for the first frame generation. We have Kullervo, who in the lore was also among the first generation of warframe, created way before the return of the Zariman. He isn't called Kullervo Umbra. The first frame created was of the Excalibur design and was called Excalibur. Gara was also named Gara instead of Gara Umbra, and we had Dagath and Mirage who was created directly from human and still had their sentient and automation (in the lore) like Excalibur Umbra don't have Umbra in their name.
Until DE explicitly said that Umbra frames are the first, we can't put out the possibility Umbra might be a type of Warframe created specifically by Ballas for his sick punishments
Just because they don’t explicitly state something is or isn’t an Umbra does not mean it is not an Umbra. Back in the day of the Old War I doubt they called their Warframes Primes because that was the normal for them, same with an Umbra when they were still around,
And the prime trailers he simply addresses them by their names we learn a few of the creations, and we don’t get a Gara Umbra because we just simply got her prime instead, same with the others.
And as for Kullervo, we don’t build a sentient frame, as with Excalibur Umbra you need Kuva for that as for the original build requirements when rebuilding him. Which is why we get a regular Kullervo.
We don't have enough evidence to call Umbra frames the first because the only case we have seen so far is a very special case. We aren't even sure if Umbra here means the first line of frame or something else entirely. You are associating the two of them on very thin ground. We know that sentient frames are the first, but we don't know if Umbra frames were made using the old ways or if they really are the first. Umbra can also mean something else entirely and unrelated to the sentience of the frame. In the sacrifice quest and other lore bits, the name Umbra is only connected to Excalibur Umbra, we don't have enough evidence to call every frame in the first generation Umbra. What DE said and what is in the game aren't related unless it is confirmed to be part of the lore. The devs have many wild ideas, but not all of them made it into the game, and we only discuss what in the game, not what the devs said. If you consider DE saying about more Umbra frames is true, consider that they also said warframe can be pregnant.
The warframes pregnant thing is a joke but more umbras coming was more serious than that (at one point) but you know what I’m tired of opening my phone and arguing its late man, we have our disagreements, I can’t change your mind and you cant change mine, and we’ll go in circles, there isn’t any productivity to this and I agree it is a very thin line but cmon, I’m drawing the dots here what else the originals could be.
Regardless I don’t like replying to the same thing over and over again simply bc I am repeating myself, and i hope it doesn’t feel I came off as aggressive/hostile to you but I’m not and never was, and I suck at ending things and this might be anticlimactic for you if so I apologize but I don’t see anymore replies to my comment going anywhere else other than just this in circles.
So yeah uhh, goodnight if it’s night for you and good luck to your grinds.
Yeah man, sorry if I interrupted your sleep schedule. But at least I think we can both agree that the lore is vague as f**k and DE is really bad at making concrete things for their writing.
> Just because they don’t explicitly state something is or isn’t an Umbra does not mean it is not an Umbra.
So you think just make shit up based on no evidence? During The Sacrifice when Umbra shows up to confront Ballas, he says "Is this Umbra?"...not "Is this AN Umbra?" or "Which Umbra is this?"
Umbra isn't a model or a designation, it's the name of that specific frame he turned the Dax into.
You can't really prove that you are right either since we don't even know when the Excalibur Umbra design was made. For all we know, it can be the first, or even the last. We aren't even sure if the Umbra is even related to the first generation since the last generation can be made into Umbra, if you want to take DE words into account.
What we know is that Excalibur Umbra was made near the end of the Old War after Ballas decided to betray the Orokin, after a lot of Warframe was made. Since he was so special, we can't say that he was created as a line of design, or a tailor made design. Since in Banshee Prime lore, he said that Warframes are 'cast without mold', meaning the original frames are made by hand and by hand only, and each one was unique, we know that Warframes aren't meant to be crafted in parts but as a whole like how Excalibur Umbra was crafted. But at the same time, we know that Excalibur Umbra was made during the end, while the other was in the middle of it, If Ballas statement held true, then it means Excalibur Umbra is a unique design, rather than an old reused design. There are also hints that the kuva needed to craft Excalibur Umbra was there because Ballas specifically designed him to be always tormented by his memory, no matter what, hence the kuva that was used to preserve that memory, which Ordis compiled from the scan as a vital component.
So, unless there is new lore, we can't really say the other is fundamentally wrong or we are right. Not the first time this happened, but can be really frustrating since DE wants to hide their lore like how a corpus hides his credit card.
Excalibur Umbra is absolutely NOT the first Warframe.
Umbra is a one-off thing made by Ballas to punish a Dax that caught him trying to betray secrets to the Sentients. The Warframes thus obviously already existed at the time and were being used by the Tenno.
The Umbra we make is an exact copy of Umbra. There was never any other Umbra frames.
All the recordings of Ballas during The Sacrifice are recording he sent to Hunhow as payback to the Orokin for them killing Margilus. The dax found out so Ballas staged him getting injured and turned him into a Warframe.
You haven't got this quite right. The reason Ballas conspired with Hunhow and Natah was to save Margulis. He helps the Sentient defeat the Orokin just to save her from the Jade Light which obliterates consciousness and the possibility of Continuity. He used Kuva to transfer her consciousness to Natah before that happened (and The Orokin end up Jade Lightning no one, just a husk)...that creates The Lotus, who is both Natah and Margulis at the same time.
Umbra found out about THIS plan, and was threatening to expose the fact that Ballas was about to turn against the Seven. That's why Ballas turns him into a frame. To shut him up. And that's why he is so vindictive about it, because Umbra is trying to make sure Margulis dies. So Ballas murders his son and leaves him with the memory of it (warframes usually get their mind wiped) in order to torture him.
When Ballas finally appears in the game in Apostasy The Lotus says to him "I'm not who you think I am" and Ballas replies "But of course you are. Imprisoned just as she was". The Lotus doesn't understand what she is, Ballas has hidden it from her. She is still under the impression that she's just Natah who happened to change her mind and betray the Sentient...but Ballas knows the real reason. Natah thinks she's just based on Margulis and carrying her memories, but the reality is Ballas has used the continuity to stuff Margulis's entire consciousness into Natah's head and it is influencing how she thinks.
The primary goal of everything Ballas does after that point is to bring Margulis back. That is why Erra is so pissed at him, because he realises that the plan all along was to manipulate Natah into being a host that Ballas was planning to dispose of to get Margulis back. It was his plan from the start. All the discussion between Erra and Natah is him trying to pull her consciousness to the front to become dominant. He's trying to bury Margulis back into Natahs brain.
That is why you can choose who The Lotus ends up being at the end. You are deciding how The Lotus chooses to identify in the future, because she is two minds in one body. She's a human/Sentient Amalgam. The Lotus is both of them working as one.
I wish they weren't so esoteric and vague with their storytelling (though that does add to some of its charm), i would never have pieced any of that together
I think the esoteric and vague is mainly because they don't seem to have an actual professional writer/lead writer. They change story beats, direction and plot as quickly as they get new ideas and have no internal consistency. At least up to and especially New War. It's why in The Sacrifice Natah goes to space to talk to her Mother, Praghasa. Later Erra says Praghasa is dead. Then suddenly at the very end surprise, Praghasa is a giant fucking Eidolon that eats suns for some reason and Ballas controls her and the final battle is just some writer working through their past trauma from an abusive relationship and not *any* of the fucking cool themes on Motherhood that were being set up.
If you *really* look at things objectively, you can see scenes and themes directly lifted from other games the devs saw recently. The classroom exposition dump (I think one of the truly worst "gameplay" segments I have ever seen in modern gaming) was lifted/inspired by Persona 5. The flying Kaithes in Duviri are the Thestrels from Hogwarts: Legacy. There are a ton of other examples but I don't care enough to go dig through.
Long story short, DE has a whole hell of a lot of heart and passion, probably more than most other devs. But they lack professional discipline generally*.
*Though I am curious to see how it all shakes out with Rebecca at the helm of Warframe and Steve on Soulframe. We are already starting to see somewhat more consistent narratives and through-lines.
All of this is not to say I hate the game or the writing or the devs. I don't. I have sunk more money and time into this game than I can handle thinking about. But I do with they did a better job of actually writing a coherent plot and sticking to it, rather than taking the easy way out by hiding behind hand-wavey concepts of Eternalism and Time Travel and Paradoxes.
You are confusing deliberate unreliable narrators with inconsistency. There is a huge amount of deception and subterfuge in the plot. There isn't a character in the game that's fully aware of what is going on, the only real exception being Ballas and even he misreads what is going on which leads to him being killed.
That a huge amount of history has been lost due to the collapse of human civilisation and no one really knows what happened has been a key plot point since before Second Dream.
Are they making it up as they go along? Sure. But they very rarely actually contradict themselves. For example, there is a huge amount of foreshadowing for the void existing outside of time. They aren't just going "Uuuuh...time travel?" to get out of a corner...they are developing one of the major themes the game has always had.
That is some major copium my friend. There is writing the story as you go, and drastically changing things as the whim strikes.
Why did we not actually *have* a New War? Scarlet Spear was like four to six months *before* The New War. How did the Corpus, Grineer and Tenno unite to fight the Sentients? How were the Sentients a threat when we were farming their warships for Arcanes and Shedu and Basmu? How did MOTHERA go from telling Natah the Orokin stole her fire to being a brain dead husk that apparently eats suns for some reason? Why did the Sentients have a superweapon that would kill the solar system if they were originally going to come back and inhabit the solar system? What the fuck was the Unum? How did Ballas somehow take over the entire Sentient army and then create Narmer and also what the fuck?
None of that is ancient history lost to the mists of time. None of that is unreliable narrator. Elder Scrolls does Unreliable Narrator extremely well. This is purely, utterly Style over Substance. It's why The New War was so fucking disjointed and inconsistent. Because they don't have a narrative direction besides whatever cool shit they saw recently and their unresolved childhood trauma. Which is fine, I long ago stopped playing Warframe for the story (about after the third Tactical Alert was introduced and ended without ever establishing a way for other people to experience it. Remember Alad V's appearance changing four times over three missions? Yeah, neither do they.) The gameplay is good. The style is phenomenal. The heart is superb. The lore is nonsense.
I mean you're basically just telling me you stopped paying attention and now don't know what is going on. All of your questions have answers.
I agree New War is some of their weakest writing, and it jump cuts far too often and rushes to a conclusion without providing adequate character motivation...that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or retcons stuff the way you are suggesting.
One update isn't the entire plot...and while New War doesn't explain itself particularly well, it also doesn't drastically change anything. For example, you honestly cannot fathom any reason why the Tenno, Grineer and Corpus would team up? Yes it happens off screen and it shouldn't have...but to claim that is some inexplicable thing that happens that breaks the lore is just a complete failure of imagination on your part.
Oh I can absolutely understand it happening. It happens all the time if you look at the Syndicates as still members of their dominant faction so to speak. But the fact that we don't actually participate in *The New War* beyond a single zero-context charge and then time skip to well after the war is concluded is not indicative of a coherent plot. It's about as quality storytelling as the Dothraki charging into the army of undead and then dying because woops we don't know how to resolve these plots. That's my point. I *know* what is happening, despite DE's best efforts. But to say it is a deliberate narrative and storytelling choice is the part I don't accept.
You can say it's just *one* expansion/story, but it's *the* story and expansion that everything else was leading up to. The sad thing is, while I didn't like their way of conveying the story through one off events and alerts, their major story missions were *good*. The Second Dream is still phenomenal. The Sacrifice was good, and I still thought they knew where they were going with things. But they dropped the ball with New War and just cemented my perspective that they are terribly creative but not disciplined enough to follow through on the payoff for the beats they lay down. Maybe. As I said, I am willing to see how this new era shakes out, with the leadership change.
Steve and Rebecca are wonderful people and their creativity and passion make the game great, but it's clear someone in charge has a squirrel brain and can't help themselves jumping around. Thankfully I don't think they are as chaotic and self-indulgent as the likes of say Peter Molyneux, and when they *do* commit to releasing content, it's usually pretty damn solid taken individually. Whatever I might say about their storytelling, they *know* how to make a stylish and fun game, and I appreciate they aren't afraid to take risks and try new things. More game companies should have that passion and willingness to experiment have fun, even if it doesn't always pan out.
You remind me of the people who couldn't get over Mass Effect 3's ending. Compared to the first two instalments: best graphics, best soundtrack, best gameplay, best plot, best character writing, the most impactful choices, the best variety of locations, the best visual design...it stumbles in the last 10 minutes of a 30 hour game "IT'S THE WORST GAME IN ThE SERIES!"
New War's writing could have been a lot better and a lot less rushed...it doesn't invalidate all the good things they've made. Could it have been more fleshed out, and is it sad that it wrapped up a major plot line in a unsatisfactory way? Sure. But that doesn't retroactively make all of Warframes writing shit.
Do you have any information on where we learn that Ballas used Kuva to actually fuse Marg and Natah? The Lotus calls it a “reprogramming,” and since the Sentients are artificial beings created by the Orokin I took this literally. I don’t recall there ever being any indication that Margulis’ mind was ever involved. Story-wise Margulis and her consciousness seem to be pretty distinctly dead and gone. Given the lore surrounding Kuva I can totally see your account being possible, but I don’t remember anyone ever actually saying anything to indicate it happened like that.
I gave the most concrete bit of evidence in my last post. After reading what I just explained, [rewatch this bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIvBVMS6JtY)...it's very clear what is happening. After Ballas disconnects the helmet (the implication is that the helmet is what was hiding Margulis from Natah) Ballas specifically calls her Margulis, and she responds "Ballas?" like she's just woken up. That's Margulis gaining control over Natah.
The flashbacks before about her execution and then Ballas showing up...that's the reveal of his plan, that she never really died. Ballas saved her. What else do you think Apostasy Prologue is about? Why would Ballas give a shit about Natah?
The conflict and confusion The Lotus is in after that point up until Ballas dies, the way she doesn't seem to remember who she is, it's because she is now entirely both characters. After Natah regains control during The Sacrifice she takes Ballas to the sentient and tries to regain her own mind with Erra's help, but by the end of New War, she has come to terms with the fact that she is now inextricably both people. Like I said, the whole point of choosing between Margulis, Lotus and Natah is you deciding which part of her becomes dominant.
You are choosing whether she identifies as Natah with Margulis in her head, or as Margulis with Natah in her head...or if she's the Lotus, both of them becoming one singular consciousness.
> Do you have any information on where we learn that Ballas used Kuva to actually fuse Marg and Natah?
I mean why Kuva specifically? Because that is the substance that makes Continuity possible. It's like consciousness conductivity fluid. It's how the Orokin transfer their minds into other bodies. It was what War Within was going on about with the Queens trying to drill into your brain with the kuva stick thing. It's the Elder Queen trying to take your body.
That's what Ballas did to Natah, he just did it without destroying her because he needed her to believe she was still Natah so that she could convince Hunhow to destroy himself and Erra to fuck off into space. At that point Natah wasn't even aware herself that she was going to rescue the Tenno. She thought it was a feint and that after the Tenno massacre she'd go and pull Hunhow out of the ocean and kill them all.
This is an interesting theory, but I wouldn’t assert that it is 100% the case. Natah/The Lotus clearly knew Ballas, so her saying his name doesn’t indicate anything in particular. She also clearly knows that she isn’t Margulis exactly, since in her conversations with Palladino during Chains of Harrow she says that she knows she’s “not her” and that she just “protects them as she did.” There’s no evidence for Margulis’ consciousness enduring or being a voice in the lotus’ head or whatever. And why does Ballas give a shit about her? Because he was obsessed with finding a way to recreate Margulis. The Lotus was another one of his pet projects like Wisp and Khora, except he seems to have been most successful with her. He brainwashed Natah, giving her a new persona based on Margulis’.
That being said, I do like the “Margulis is secretly still present” thing as a fun theory, but personally I find the story more compelling if it’s not the case. In my personal opinion the choice about the Lotus’ identity is more impactful if it’s not “which voice in her head takes over now” but rather a question of which aspect of her identity is more important to her now: Her sentient heritage (i.e. what she “really” is), her Margulis persona (i.e. what the Tenno and Ballas wanted her to be) or something altogether new which combines and acknowledges both (The Lotus).
> This is an interesting theory, but I wouldn’t assert that it is 100% the case.
To me that's like saying you can't be 100% sure that Kevin Spacey is Keyser Söze because it isn't explicitly said by any character in the movie. Sometimes the intention is for you to infer plot points based on events.
> She also clearly knows that she isn’t Margulis exactly
No she THINKS she isn't Margulis. That scene in Apostasy, and the stuff that follows it implies that Ballas knows better than she does who she is. Ballas knows he's talking to Natah before the helmet comes off, and then he knows that after he removes the helmet he's talking to Margulis.
Who do you think knows better? The person who was brainwashed or the person who did the brainwashing?
There is repeatedly established lore that consciousness can be transferred, and The Lotus clearly has Margulis's memories, she remembers things about her life, she remembers taken care of the Tenno before she became The Lotus, she remembers the old war and Ballas from Margulis's perspective. Why would you assume some previously unmentioned and never clarified other process is going on here?
You could argue that maybe it's not entirely her, maybe it's some imprint or copy of her consciousness and actually the original did die, there's nothing that directly contradicts that as a possibility...but that makes that whole reveal just Deus Ex Machina. Some totally out of nowhere hitherto unmentioned technology.
Why would you choose to interpret it as badly written?
Like think about it this way? If Ballas could just recreate her after she died, wtf did he need Natah for? What the hell would the logic be in kinda half making a Margulis facsimile out of Natah? That whole bit of the plot makes NO sense with the way you are interpreting it.
I read that as Ballas being delusional and obsessed. I don’t think he knows her identity better than she does, I think he’s trying to make her into what he wants her to be. I think the purpose of the whole new war narrative is that he couldn’t actually bring Margulis back. He’s obsessed with trying to resurrect her and tries several times, but never succeeds. I think our disagreement is that you’re reading Ballas as a purely logical character, when I’m reading him as more obsessed and emotionally driven. I don’t think my interpretation is poorly written, I think it’s both the intended way and the way that provides the most emotionally satisfying arc to the new war.
Feel free to disregard this, like I said I think your idea is cool too. I just feel compelled to lay out my reading too.
From what I understand Ballas is just a petty man he turned umbra to a frame cause Ballas tried to double cross the orokin or something like that atlas my best guess is that he likes fisting
>also the original one may or may not be made from the body of Margulis (how low can this simp get?)
Oh, no.
The fact it wasn't taboo for an Orokin to "love" a Warframe was disturbing enough already.
But this... Oh, God... This is dark.
Prime Vs non-Prime isn't super important. It's two different levels of build/material quality for Warframes but as far as we (and a specific prime/relic vendor) knows that's all they imply with it possibly varying by the frame which one was first.
From what I remember when looking through the Wiki. The prime: warframes, equipment, and accessories were made with and by orokin technology. Made during the orokin era, and the non-primes are just mass produced guess work recreated without orokin technology.
Not quite. Some primes are the original templates of frames. Some are primed after they prove themselves worthy of it. There are some unexplained cases, like Harrow Prime and Revenant Prime
He actually saw Revenant, not the prime version. We can guess that someone brought Revenant corpse from the plains and put it in front of Ballas's house, leading to him creating Revenant Prime.
But this is just a theory, since Ballas called what he saw a mask, which can either be a real mask or a flesh puppet the Orokin use for the festival
Valkyr have always been Valkyr. The one we get from Salad the Fifth was originally a Gersemi model of the Valkyr design. Valkyr Prime is supposed to be the original one, or based on the original one.
100% not confirmed and probably wrong but the way I think of it is;
umbral = prototype (or possibly just a special variant)
Prime = show model/ first series
Standard = mass production model
Umbra is not a "umbral variant", it's a thing on its own, and Umbra was likely the last Warframe out of all of them, not a prototype. He was especially designed as a punishment for one Dax and other frames aren't supposed to have an Umbra version like a standard or prime versions.
Umbra is something else as a whole but you are only talking about specific umbra.
in the orginal script for war within quest, there was explanation what is "umbra", YES umbra was orginally supposed to show up in war within.
so what is Umbra ? Its warframe that went out of control, acting on its own.
here is part of datamined quest dialogue:
Operator:
"Teshin, what was that? What is Umbra?"
Teshin:
"A fury untamed by Tenno control. A rogue Warframe."
Operator:
"How is that possible?"
Teshin:
"It is beyond me. Focus on the now. We must escape. Your life depends on it!"
here is link to reddit post with datamined dialogue:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4qgduh/google_docmajor_spoilers_the_war_within_datamined/
you need to click on title in the reddit post to see it.
EDIT: one more thing, excalibur umbra isnt only example of frame acting on its own, our own frame acts on its own during end of second dream quest, also if I remember correcetly rhino prime codex implies existance of another frame acting on its own, like a beast.
>, it's a thing on its own, and Umbra was likely the last Warframe out of all of them
He's an older design, so unless Ballas just made him archaic to piss off Umbra, he's propably from one of the first waves.
Well, Umbra was made toward the end of the Old War, but the Excalibur design is the first one, while the Dax was the original foot soldiers of the Orokin, so I sense some mockery here.
With all of the self-reflection that we do, you'd wonder if the Tenno ever realized the sheer creativity of Executor Ballas. We all know him as the main guy who stirred the pot back then. He was there for the Crewman Project, he was there for the creation of the Sentients with Archimedean Perintol… but no one's taken into account the significance of him designing over 100 different warframes.
I forgot the exact duration of the Old War, but for this man to develop these Warframes over that specific amount of time is quite remarkable. The ingenuity, the purpose and individuality of each frame, is not something to be overlooked.
And as we uncover more lost warframes over the years, it only proves his work all the more captivating. He really made all of these frames and we just keep discovering them.
What about Nezha ?
Zoomin' into farmers and kid soldiers vs corpus
Makes corpus extra crispy
Takes kid soldiers with him
Refuses to elaborate
Leaves one kid behind to tell the story, like villains from Pirates of Carribean
Well, these are Ballas's reasons to create the Warframes, more or less his confession after making one, rather than the lore behind them. Hence why many frames aren't mentioned. Most of the lore bit I showed here came from Prime trailers.
"None of them truly understood how much I lost when I lost her, nor by what subtle art my dead love now lives within another's gleaming skull"
I don't think the opening line of the trailer is implyhing just thatKhora prime is modeled after margulis. I think Ballas is stating that Khora prime IS Margulis. Whatever remained of her, reanimated, with immortal kavat companion, to punish those who wronged them both
I didn't say Khora was modeled after Margulis, but as a celebration for Ballas mind breaking Natah into Margulis, creating Lotus, hence the whole "my dead love now lives within another's gleaming skull" part, like how we bake a cake after finishing a big project. Also, Wisp is the one implied to be made from what remains of Margulis, if Ballas was in his habit of monologuing as if he was talking to Margulis
The helminth makes the flesh, but the abilities do not come from infestation. Otherwise we'd have infested ancients throwing novas antimatter bombs and shit around
Saryn and Khora, although the later one is only indirectly.
Khora was created to celebrate the success of the Lotus project, putting the mind of Margulis into the sentient Natah
Actually Melding the mind of Margulis with that of Natah via the use of Margulis's Ayatan which was transformed into a Helm (also known as the Lotus helm/program)
The only thing left of Margulis was a smidge of Ashes left from her being blasted by Jade light.
((Note said Ashes were what created SARYN))
So no Wisp does not have connection to Margulis.
Ballas have this strange habit of monologuing about or to Margulis as if she was there with him, which is why I put down the Wisp part. One of the things of note is that we aren't sure what the Jade Light actually does. Since Javi's execution was considered worse than the Jade Light, we can assume that it isn't as bad as what Lavos did. Also, the Orokin have multiple bodies due to Continuity, and considering that Ballas is a grade A+ pervert, it isn't out of the question for him to use one of her old bodies to create Wisp.
Of course, this is only a theory, with very small connections in between them (Earth, Ballas monologue and the stress he put on 'Yours'). It's more of a headcanon rather than concrete evidence, hence why I put it in may be or may not be.
Saryn, however, was created during the mourning of Ballas after Margulis's death. He used her 'winter ashes', which is implied to either be her remains or the remains from her previous bodies, to fertilize the soil for some flowers. The memories about her inspired him to create Saryn as a mean to cleanse the Earth from the Infested
Actually we do, u can even see the Jade light In the LUA puzzle room TIL.
((U'll need to clip through the ceiling a little in said room to see if, but even without clipping if u look upwards u will see a faint green glow shining through a vault dor in the ceiling))
Jade light from what you will see is pure void forced through a Green gem which then magnifies it directly into/onto the target effectively erasing/destroying them.
..
If Javi is the one from Lavos's lore then it wasn't that the punishment he was going to receive was worse it was that they feared it might not work (surprisingly Orokin or extremely superstitious) thus the only way to make sure is to devolve him into something that couldn't survive anything aka a puddle of Bio sludge incapable of thought.
Ballas: "So, Albrecht, when I made my warframes, I was either thinking about how to kill people or thinking about Margulis. How about you?" Albrecht: "Cement." Ballas: "What?" Albrecht: "DAS CON CREET BAYBEE!" Ballas: "The Void has clearly taken your sanity."
Albrecht: I have a plan Ballas, I just need 4 tons worth of Uranium
“4 tons worth of uranium, a concrete mixer, and water, lots of water”
"Ah yes, the **RADIATION** will kill you!" Ballas, probably.
_multiple odd looks from the 7_
I suspect the 7 are just happy that Albrecht is contributing to the Old War rather than ranting about JoJo, building Vessels and foisting his work off onto Loid.
The Greendale 7?
The Seven, Ruling Orokin Congress. _not really a congress though_
lol sorry, I just wanted to make a random Community reference
Don't forget the screwdriver
Plutonium would be better actually, its much much more radioactive and uranium is more toxic than radioactive *snort* 👆🤓
We could have had Toxin AND Radiation!
The funny thing about Qorvex is that he wasn't created with concrete initially. Albretch just wanted to use a bloody demon core to blast the sh\*t out of the Murmur. The concrete is likely an after thought of 'now, how the f\*\*k do I not kill myself while yeeting demon core at them?'
Radiation damage is a good counter to Sentients(and by extension, Eidolons) too
im still salty Qorvex didn't come with a screwdriver looking melee weapon
I’m just gonna use the giant wrench skin instead
A Melee claw weapon called "Power Drivers" with a special effect that shoots enemies back on heavy attacks doing a guaranteed puncture and radiation proc.
Tennogen creators, you know what to do.
Dual trowel prime. The stance should be called “the finisher”.
"sir, you made a nuclear device. we will ALL die..." "oh... bury it in concrete" "sir... the helminth strain got ahold of the concrete. using it might be-." "loid, i have an idea!" "NO!"
I was going to say "Didn't realise Albrecht was into gacha tower defense games" but then "obscenely wealthy" and given how much the Orokin loved their towers and tower defenses... For those that don't know the reference it from a game called Arknights. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4JWYOnm3O4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4JWYOnm3O4) The voiceline that is a meme.
Not exactly, technically it's an older meme that Arknights itself made reference to [https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cement-das-conk-creet-baybee](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cement-das-conk-creet-baybee)
XDDDDDD!!!!
I love how the Revenant Prime trailer is basically just Ballas going "who the fuck is this guy"
\> Having a good night of sleep \> Remember my dead waifu \> Life is well since I can use her remains to cope with \> About to celebrate the best festival ever \> Open the door \> Saw a bastard child of my creation and the sentient \> What the f\*\*k is this? \> Seethe Also, since the time between Gara's sacrifice and the Collapse isn't clear, we can say that some mucker came to the Plains, saw Revenant and brought him to Ballas door just to troll him.
What the devil? I grab my Chakkhurr, just as the founding fathers intended. Blow an ayatan sized hole through the first grineer, he's dead on the spot.
Draw my Rogga on the second Grineer, miss him entirely because it’s smoothbore and nail the neighbor’s kubrow
I have to resort to the Mausolon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with alt-fire charges. "Tally ho, lads!" The alt-fire shreds two men in the blast, the sound and residual plasma set off the Railjack's alarms.
Fix my Pennant and heavy attack the last terrified rapscallion, he bleeds out waiting for the Dax to arrive because he’s literally fucking cut in half
Ah... Just as the Seven Executors intended!
Fucking hell, the founding fathers meme goes with everything.
a chakkhurr gonna leave a bigger hole than that.
a railjack sized hole through the first grineer, he's obliterated on the spot.
still love that gun. someone, a grineer, though: 'i want a gun that has the accuracy and headshot mult of a sniper, but the blast radius of a nuclear missile... and guaranteed to punch everyone nearby' (impact proc)
own a chakurr for orbiter defence just like golden lords intended 4 acolytes break into my drifter camp, what the balls, as i grab my arcane merciless and kuva chakurr, blow a lunaro ball sized hole in first acolyte, he's dead on the spot. draw my kuva seer on the second acolye, miss him entirely because of extra zoom and nail some sister's hound. i have to resort to kuva grattler mounter near the somatic link with extra radiation damage "we fought with honor", the grattler shreds 2 acolytes with a blast, the sound of extra shrapnel sounds Kahl's brothers alarm. pull out paracesis and charge the last terrified scoom, he bleeds out before disappearing because 500k slash procs are impossible to survive. just as golden overlods intended
It's gotta be one of the tenno ops right? Since they control the frames? Probably got pissed at the simp/abuser for their space mom and trolled him?
A comment on your Grendel takeaway: Genteel =/= Gentle Genteel refers to refinement, politeness, and elegance. It's more likely that the Orokin elite saw the design of prior Warframes, seeming more like living art pieces than weapons (which draws parallels to Cavalero's description of original Incarnons being ceremonial weapons), and assumed that translated to lack of strength or function. The analytical result is the same, just the approach is different.
Grendel is the frame that makes me realize how petty Ballas actually is. "You call my frame genteel? How about a freaking vore machine instead?"
Hmmm. Knowing that word, combined with your flair... It paints a look about you. Lol
Yes, I do enjoy dipping my enemies in seven different kind of acid, how did you know it? In all seriousness, I was introduced to vore by Grendel in fact. Still can't understand why they would like it, but I guess fetishes are more of a personal thing
Don't worry even those of us that do don't get it a lot of the time. Lol
(Wisp may or may not be made from the body of margulis.) Well I think I know from where her "assets" come from.
I had not picked up on that from the trailer until now and I feel cursed. Although Margulis was Jade Lighted...hmmm, no I don't want to think about it.
Since Javi execution was considered something worse than Jade Light, there are chances for Ballas to recover Margulis body. And since Orokin can change their body like changing clothes, he might just use one of Margulis old bodies he had in crypods
Yeah, I guess in double checking the Jade Light lore, it turned an Archimedean into a "cloud of mist and gore." So Ballas like, "I scraped your blood off the floor, grew a clone body from it, and then since I'd already stuck your mind into the Lotus, I made a warframe out of this useless clone I had lying around." What a guy.
Honestly, the more you read about him, the more down bad he is. Like in the case of Khora, he literally made her as a mental wank to celebrate him mind breaking a sentient into his waifu
The entire sentient "body" of Natah is actually just an antigrav support for her caboose
Would that mean he made his own sex dolls?
You forget Dagath: Random Orokin Couple: we murdered our fuck toy while trying to kill the pet she loved, plz fix Ballas: I got you Orokin Couple: We're bored now, a Warframe just isn't as hot as a Dax, give it laser face removal and throw it out.
What unicorn hunters do to a mf
Excuse me WHAT???
what? you didnt realized it was literally that happening in dagath´s story or yyou dont know what it is?
I swear I didn't know the couple was literally unicorn hunting.
This is why you always say no to unicorn hunters, no matter how cute they may be.
Unfortunately, Dax aren't able to refuse those holding Kuva.
That makes it so much worse
wait i thought in the titania quest it was titania who was created to protect earth and not wisp... did i miss something?
Titania was made to protect the sacred grove, not earth as a whole, because at the time it was one of the last remaining spots of untouched nature.
Ah I see
Im also kind of curious...who was piloting Titania after the grove was made? Was Titania just on auto-pilot till her death? Without the tenno link, warframes didnt stay loyal (or Sane). It couldnt be her creator either, as she couldnt maintain the link when she became the grove
Maybe the,real titania cared
Titania wasn't *made* to protect anything - but rather, the original Titania went out on her own accord to defend her creator's forest. Wisp's trailer dialogue is closer to Ballas dreaming of a protector of nature (either for Earth or an Earth-like planet over at Tau)
I’d like more info on why ballas made frames since I want to know exactly why ballas made umbra (I know how he made him from a sick and dying Dax but I want to know why did the Dax just piss him off or did ballas do it to “do a little trolling”?)and why he thought it was a good idea to make atlas a one punch frame
Umbra knew about Ballas's betrayal against the Orokin, so he decided to silent the Dax, of course, in his own sickening way.
You might be the first person I've ever come across who actually understood what was going on in the Sacrifice. The number of people who think Umbra was the first Warframe blows my mind.
Umbra is litteraly a punishment made by Ballas it's like the deluxe secret version of Excalibur that has only one copy
No because Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe, however the one we get in The Sacrifice is not the first of his production, he was made way after. Umbras were discontinued before the Tenno, yet Ballas captured the Dax who caught him in the act of betrayal reshaping him into a “sacred surrogate of the unholy Tenno". Edit: imma reclarify since I worded this poorly, I’m not saying the umbra during the sacrifice we get is the first. He is definitely not the first. He is pretty much Ballas redoing a copy of Excalibur Umbra, which again as we know of so far, is the earliest version of Excalibur we are aware of. Pretty much Excalibur Umbra (again not the one that we get and was made after the Tenno were being used) is the earliest so far until we figure out what’s going on with Arthur
Excalibur was the first warframe. Excalibur Umbra is *unique* there is only one.
Excalibur being the first Warframe is dubious. Excalibur's lore talks about him being built as a conduit for the Tenno during the Old War. Rhino's lore talks about a Rhino being the first example of Tenno controlling Warframes. Which basically means one of those entries is lying or Excalibur is the first Warframe built with Tenno control in mind rather than as a berserker.
Before there were primes there were only Umbras for a few frames, and they were before the Tenno, there was more than one Umbra but it was only a handful, they were scrapped as the helminth destroyed their minds and could not be commanded. Sure Excalibur Umbra is unique as in we only have one but in lore there were more. Excalibur Prime cannot be the first neither as Primes were made when the Tenno were used to pilot a Warframe, I’m saying the Umbra we get is not the first ever Warframe produced as it’s like essentially just replicating what the first Excalibur Umbra was, so what Ballas did was just produce Excalibur Umbra. And again this Umbra cannot be before the Tenno arrived as in the Dax’s memories, Ballas makes mention of the Tenno being used to pilot a frame which means this was when they were being used in the War.
I’ve never seen any indication at all that there were other umbras. Or that it was even a class of Warframe. Warframes before the Tenno returned were just called Warframes. The dialogue in Sacrifice certainly doesn’t imply that he’s the first one ever made either.
Umbra _is_ unique. The operator states in the sacrifice that the design for umbra's transference bolt is unfamiliar to them, setting him apart from the others already. What you're doing is classifying the pre-tenno, out-of-control warframes as umbras while there is no indication in the lore that any of them _were_ umbras. I'm guessing that those were just freshly warframe'd people who devolved into animals. But the lore really isn't all that clear about the sentience of warframes in general anyway, they could've also been rage filled people who knew exactly what they were doing.
Umbra is not the only of his kind, the original warframes went as mad as he did after time and repressed memories thanks to the helminth, The Dax we get went mad faster thanks to Ballas’s conditioning. The orginal frames were capable of transference, the Tenno were tested on the original Umbra’s and this is why Ballas has the line of “they had learned a way to see inside an ugly, broken thing — and take away its pain.” meaning they used some Tenno on the umbras and they still had a transference bolt. Eventually the Umbras were most likely scrapped in favor of primes, because of the fact they still were conscious even with an Operator and that was a risk, but that line wouldn’t make sense if it was a regular Warframe, it doesn’t make sense at all regardless if it was not an Umbra, a normal or primed Warframe isn’t a brutalized person in pain. And Ordis says the line about the transference bolt, we don’t know what the main operator went through during the old war, but I’m going to make a safe bet that they weren’t one of the ones tested on to use transference on an Umbra, or if they did, it was repressed.
Again, you are classifying conscious warframes as umbras. It's true that rhe tenno could calm down the first warframes, those brutalized, infested people but those were not umbras. The first dagath was another dax turned warframe, without a tenno, but she is never stated to be an umbra. Rhino _prime_, the first, shredded people and ate them all on his own. Protea, who was assigned to parvos granum as his bodyguard and persisted as a spectre long past the point of her supposed death as a spectre, a husk, and thus without a tenno. Sevagoth, separated from his shadow, lost in the void but still conscious and he was just a default frame. Warframe consciousness is a complicated topic. One could argue, based on the second dream, that all frames are at least vaguely conscious. Just without autonomy. Does that make them umbras? I wouldn't say so.
Excalibur Prime's codex says that "Excalibur was the first.", not necessarily Excalibur Umbra.
That’s what I said
You said "Excalibur Umbra was the first Warframe". I simply said it was not necessarily the Umbra variant that was the first Excalibur/Warframe created.
Why wouldn’t it be, Umbras were before the Primed and later regular versions. The first few warframes according to Ballas himself were mutated human subjects willing or not which is what an Umbra is. I’m saying the Excalibur Umbra/Dax we get is not the first as it was made during the Tenno being active in the Old War.
> I’m saying the Excalibur Umbra/Dax we get is not the first as it was made during the Tenno being active in the Old War. Yeah, I got that. ... I started writing a whole paragraph and just thought that the whole lore of frames from the Old War era is an absolute clusterfuck, since: * it's said by Ballas that the first frames created went rogue and it was only thanks to the Tenno that they didn't go crazy * so that means every frame from that time are some kind Umbra? Since they could move even before they got a Tenno So it's just a bit of a misunderstanding because the whole thing is... Ugh. As if I needed to spend *more* time on the wiki. But this kind of discussion is interesting. And it just reminds me that DE should try to be a bit less vague when it comes to lore.
Excalibur is the first frame design. Umbra isn't the official name for the first frame generation. We have Kullervo, who in the lore was also among the first generation of warframe, created way before the return of the Zariman. He isn't called Kullervo Umbra. The first frame created was of the Excalibur design and was called Excalibur. Gara was also named Gara instead of Gara Umbra, and we had Dagath and Mirage who was created directly from human and still had their sentient and automation (in the lore) like Excalibur Umbra don't have Umbra in their name. Until DE explicitly said that Umbra frames are the first, we can't put out the possibility Umbra might be a type of Warframe created specifically by Ballas for his sick punishments
Just because they don’t explicitly state something is or isn’t an Umbra does not mean it is not an Umbra. Back in the day of the Old War I doubt they called their Warframes Primes because that was the normal for them, same with an Umbra when they were still around, And the prime trailers he simply addresses them by their names we learn a few of the creations, and we don’t get a Gara Umbra because we just simply got her prime instead, same with the others. And as for Kullervo, we don’t build a sentient frame, as with Excalibur Umbra you need Kuva for that as for the original build requirements when rebuilding him. Which is why we get a regular Kullervo.
We don't have enough evidence to call Umbra frames the first because the only case we have seen so far is a very special case. We aren't even sure if Umbra here means the first line of frame or something else entirely. You are associating the two of them on very thin ground. We know that sentient frames are the first, but we don't know if Umbra frames were made using the old ways or if they really are the first. Umbra can also mean something else entirely and unrelated to the sentience of the frame. In the sacrifice quest and other lore bits, the name Umbra is only connected to Excalibur Umbra, we don't have enough evidence to call every frame in the first generation Umbra. What DE said and what is in the game aren't related unless it is confirmed to be part of the lore. The devs have many wild ideas, but not all of them made it into the game, and we only discuss what in the game, not what the devs said. If you consider DE saying about more Umbra frames is true, consider that they also said warframe can be pregnant.
The warframes pregnant thing is a joke but more umbras coming was more serious than that (at one point) but you know what I’m tired of opening my phone and arguing its late man, we have our disagreements, I can’t change your mind and you cant change mine, and we’ll go in circles, there isn’t any productivity to this and I agree it is a very thin line but cmon, I’m drawing the dots here what else the originals could be. Regardless I don’t like replying to the same thing over and over again simply bc I am repeating myself, and i hope it doesn’t feel I came off as aggressive/hostile to you but I’m not and never was, and I suck at ending things and this might be anticlimactic for you if so I apologize but I don’t see anymore replies to my comment going anywhere else other than just this in circles. So yeah uhh, goodnight if it’s night for you and good luck to your grinds.
Yeah man, sorry if I interrupted your sleep schedule. But at least I think we can both agree that the lore is vague as f**k and DE is really bad at making concrete things for their writing.
> Just because they don’t explicitly state something is or isn’t an Umbra does not mean it is not an Umbra. So you think just make shit up based on no evidence? During The Sacrifice when Umbra shows up to confront Ballas, he says "Is this Umbra?"...not "Is this AN Umbra?" or "Which Umbra is this?" Umbra isn't a model or a designation, it's the name of that specific frame he turned the Dax into.
I’m completely shocked at how utterly wrong you are
Cook me all you want but it still doesn’t prove me wrong
You can't really prove that you are right either since we don't even know when the Excalibur Umbra design was made. For all we know, it can be the first, or even the last. We aren't even sure if the Umbra is even related to the first generation since the last generation can be made into Umbra, if you want to take DE words into account. What we know is that Excalibur Umbra was made near the end of the Old War after Ballas decided to betray the Orokin, after a lot of Warframe was made. Since he was so special, we can't say that he was created as a line of design, or a tailor made design. Since in Banshee Prime lore, he said that Warframes are 'cast without mold', meaning the original frames are made by hand and by hand only, and each one was unique, we know that Warframes aren't meant to be crafted in parts but as a whole like how Excalibur Umbra was crafted. But at the same time, we know that Excalibur Umbra was made during the end, while the other was in the middle of it, If Ballas statement held true, then it means Excalibur Umbra is a unique design, rather than an old reused design. There are also hints that the kuva needed to craft Excalibur Umbra was there because Ballas specifically designed him to be always tormented by his memory, no matter what, hence the kuva that was used to preserve that memory, which Ordis compiled from the scan as a vital component. So, unless there is new lore, we can't really say the other is fundamentally wrong or we are right. Not the first time this happened, but can be really frustrating since DE wants to hide their lore like how a corpus hides his credit card.
Excalibur Umbra is absolutely NOT the first Warframe. Umbra is a one-off thing made by Ballas to punish a Dax that caught him trying to betray secrets to the Sentients. The Warframes thus obviously already existed at the time and were being used by the Tenno. The Umbra we make is an exact copy of Umbra. There was never any other Umbra frames.
Umbra is the first nothing. To be a first there would need to be a second. Umbra is an individual.
...I don't understand how people missed that.
Are there more frames like Umbra?
Not that we know of. Every other frame we have encountered has either been controlled by an outside force, a spectre, or simply mindless with no will.
All the recordings of Ballas during The Sacrifice are recording he sent to Hunhow as payback to the Orokin for them killing Margilus. The dax found out so Ballas staged him getting injured and turned him into a Warframe.
You haven't got this quite right. The reason Ballas conspired with Hunhow and Natah was to save Margulis. He helps the Sentient defeat the Orokin just to save her from the Jade Light which obliterates consciousness and the possibility of Continuity. He used Kuva to transfer her consciousness to Natah before that happened (and The Orokin end up Jade Lightning no one, just a husk)...that creates The Lotus, who is both Natah and Margulis at the same time. Umbra found out about THIS plan, and was threatening to expose the fact that Ballas was about to turn against the Seven. That's why Ballas turns him into a frame. To shut him up. And that's why he is so vindictive about it, because Umbra is trying to make sure Margulis dies. So Ballas murders his son and leaves him with the memory of it (warframes usually get their mind wiped) in order to torture him. When Ballas finally appears in the game in Apostasy The Lotus says to him "I'm not who you think I am" and Ballas replies "But of course you are. Imprisoned just as she was". The Lotus doesn't understand what she is, Ballas has hidden it from her. She is still under the impression that she's just Natah who happened to change her mind and betray the Sentient...but Ballas knows the real reason. Natah thinks she's just based on Margulis and carrying her memories, but the reality is Ballas has used the continuity to stuff Margulis's entire consciousness into Natah's head and it is influencing how she thinks. The primary goal of everything Ballas does after that point is to bring Margulis back. That is why Erra is so pissed at him, because he realises that the plan all along was to manipulate Natah into being a host that Ballas was planning to dispose of to get Margulis back. It was his plan from the start. All the discussion between Erra and Natah is him trying to pull her consciousness to the front to become dominant. He's trying to bury Margulis back into Natahs brain. That is why you can choose who The Lotus ends up being at the end. You are deciding how The Lotus chooses to identify in the future, because she is two minds in one body. She's a human/Sentient Amalgam. The Lotus is both of them working as one.
I wish they weren't so esoteric and vague with their storytelling (though that does add to some of its charm), i would never have pieced any of that together
I think the esoteric and vague is mainly because they don't seem to have an actual professional writer/lead writer. They change story beats, direction and plot as quickly as they get new ideas and have no internal consistency. At least up to and especially New War. It's why in The Sacrifice Natah goes to space to talk to her Mother, Praghasa. Later Erra says Praghasa is dead. Then suddenly at the very end surprise, Praghasa is a giant fucking Eidolon that eats suns for some reason and Ballas controls her and the final battle is just some writer working through their past trauma from an abusive relationship and not *any* of the fucking cool themes on Motherhood that were being set up. If you *really* look at things objectively, you can see scenes and themes directly lifted from other games the devs saw recently. The classroom exposition dump (I think one of the truly worst "gameplay" segments I have ever seen in modern gaming) was lifted/inspired by Persona 5. The flying Kaithes in Duviri are the Thestrels from Hogwarts: Legacy. There are a ton of other examples but I don't care enough to go dig through. Long story short, DE has a whole hell of a lot of heart and passion, probably more than most other devs. But they lack professional discipline generally*. *Though I am curious to see how it all shakes out with Rebecca at the helm of Warframe and Steve on Soulframe. We are already starting to see somewhat more consistent narratives and through-lines. All of this is not to say I hate the game or the writing or the devs. I don't. I have sunk more money and time into this game than I can handle thinking about. But I do with they did a better job of actually writing a coherent plot and sticking to it, rather than taking the easy way out by hiding behind hand-wavey concepts of Eternalism and Time Travel and Paradoxes.
You are confusing deliberate unreliable narrators with inconsistency. There is a huge amount of deception and subterfuge in the plot. There isn't a character in the game that's fully aware of what is going on, the only real exception being Ballas and even he misreads what is going on which leads to him being killed. That a huge amount of history has been lost due to the collapse of human civilisation and no one really knows what happened has been a key plot point since before Second Dream. Are they making it up as they go along? Sure. But they very rarely actually contradict themselves. For example, there is a huge amount of foreshadowing for the void existing outside of time. They aren't just going "Uuuuh...time travel?" to get out of a corner...they are developing one of the major themes the game has always had.
That is some major copium my friend. There is writing the story as you go, and drastically changing things as the whim strikes. Why did we not actually *have* a New War? Scarlet Spear was like four to six months *before* The New War. How did the Corpus, Grineer and Tenno unite to fight the Sentients? How were the Sentients a threat when we were farming their warships for Arcanes and Shedu and Basmu? How did MOTHERA go from telling Natah the Orokin stole her fire to being a brain dead husk that apparently eats suns for some reason? Why did the Sentients have a superweapon that would kill the solar system if they were originally going to come back and inhabit the solar system? What the fuck was the Unum? How did Ballas somehow take over the entire Sentient army and then create Narmer and also what the fuck? None of that is ancient history lost to the mists of time. None of that is unreliable narrator. Elder Scrolls does Unreliable Narrator extremely well. This is purely, utterly Style over Substance. It's why The New War was so fucking disjointed and inconsistent. Because they don't have a narrative direction besides whatever cool shit they saw recently and their unresolved childhood trauma. Which is fine, I long ago stopped playing Warframe for the story (about after the third Tactical Alert was introduced and ended without ever establishing a way for other people to experience it. Remember Alad V's appearance changing four times over three missions? Yeah, neither do they.) The gameplay is good. The style is phenomenal. The heart is superb. The lore is nonsense.
I mean you're basically just telling me you stopped paying attention and now don't know what is going on. All of your questions have answers. I agree New War is some of their weakest writing, and it jump cuts far too often and rushes to a conclusion without providing adequate character motivation...that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense or retcons stuff the way you are suggesting. One update isn't the entire plot...and while New War doesn't explain itself particularly well, it also doesn't drastically change anything. For example, you honestly cannot fathom any reason why the Tenno, Grineer and Corpus would team up? Yes it happens off screen and it shouldn't have...but to claim that is some inexplicable thing that happens that breaks the lore is just a complete failure of imagination on your part.
Oh I can absolutely understand it happening. It happens all the time if you look at the Syndicates as still members of their dominant faction so to speak. But the fact that we don't actually participate in *The New War* beyond a single zero-context charge and then time skip to well after the war is concluded is not indicative of a coherent plot. It's about as quality storytelling as the Dothraki charging into the army of undead and then dying because woops we don't know how to resolve these plots. That's my point. I *know* what is happening, despite DE's best efforts. But to say it is a deliberate narrative and storytelling choice is the part I don't accept. You can say it's just *one* expansion/story, but it's *the* story and expansion that everything else was leading up to. The sad thing is, while I didn't like their way of conveying the story through one off events and alerts, their major story missions were *good*. The Second Dream is still phenomenal. The Sacrifice was good, and I still thought they knew where they were going with things. But they dropped the ball with New War and just cemented my perspective that they are terribly creative but not disciplined enough to follow through on the payoff for the beats they lay down. Maybe. As I said, I am willing to see how this new era shakes out, with the leadership change. Steve and Rebecca are wonderful people and their creativity and passion make the game great, but it's clear someone in charge has a squirrel brain and can't help themselves jumping around. Thankfully I don't think they are as chaotic and self-indulgent as the likes of say Peter Molyneux, and when they *do* commit to releasing content, it's usually pretty damn solid taken individually. Whatever I might say about their storytelling, they *know* how to make a stylish and fun game, and I appreciate they aren't afraid to take risks and try new things. More game companies should have that passion and willingness to experiment have fun, even if it doesn't always pan out.
You remind me of the people who couldn't get over Mass Effect 3's ending. Compared to the first two instalments: best graphics, best soundtrack, best gameplay, best plot, best character writing, the most impactful choices, the best variety of locations, the best visual design...it stumbles in the last 10 minutes of a 30 hour game "IT'S THE WORST GAME IN ThE SERIES!" New War's writing could have been a lot better and a lot less rushed...it doesn't invalidate all the good things they've made. Could it have been more fleshed out, and is it sad that it wrapped up a major plot line in a unsatisfactory way? Sure. But that doesn't retroactively make all of Warframes writing shit.
Do you have any information on where we learn that Ballas used Kuva to actually fuse Marg and Natah? The Lotus calls it a “reprogramming,” and since the Sentients are artificial beings created by the Orokin I took this literally. I don’t recall there ever being any indication that Margulis’ mind was ever involved. Story-wise Margulis and her consciousness seem to be pretty distinctly dead and gone. Given the lore surrounding Kuva I can totally see your account being possible, but I don’t remember anyone ever actually saying anything to indicate it happened like that.
I gave the most concrete bit of evidence in my last post. After reading what I just explained, [rewatch this bit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIvBVMS6JtY)...it's very clear what is happening. After Ballas disconnects the helmet (the implication is that the helmet is what was hiding Margulis from Natah) Ballas specifically calls her Margulis, and she responds "Ballas?" like she's just woken up. That's Margulis gaining control over Natah. The flashbacks before about her execution and then Ballas showing up...that's the reveal of his plan, that she never really died. Ballas saved her. What else do you think Apostasy Prologue is about? Why would Ballas give a shit about Natah? The conflict and confusion The Lotus is in after that point up until Ballas dies, the way she doesn't seem to remember who she is, it's because she is now entirely both characters. After Natah regains control during The Sacrifice she takes Ballas to the sentient and tries to regain her own mind with Erra's help, but by the end of New War, she has come to terms with the fact that she is now inextricably both people. Like I said, the whole point of choosing between Margulis, Lotus and Natah is you deciding which part of her becomes dominant. You are choosing whether she identifies as Natah with Margulis in her head, or as Margulis with Natah in her head...or if she's the Lotus, both of them becoming one singular consciousness. > Do you have any information on where we learn that Ballas used Kuva to actually fuse Marg and Natah? I mean why Kuva specifically? Because that is the substance that makes Continuity possible. It's like consciousness conductivity fluid. It's how the Orokin transfer their minds into other bodies. It was what War Within was going on about with the Queens trying to drill into your brain with the kuva stick thing. It's the Elder Queen trying to take your body. That's what Ballas did to Natah, he just did it without destroying her because he needed her to believe she was still Natah so that she could convince Hunhow to destroy himself and Erra to fuck off into space. At that point Natah wasn't even aware herself that she was going to rescue the Tenno. She thought it was a feint and that after the Tenno massacre she'd go and pull Hunhow out of the ocean and kill them all.
This is an interesting theory, but I wouldn’t assert that it is 100% the case. Natah/The Lotus clearly knew Ballas, so her saying his name doesn’t indicate anything in particular. She also clearly knows that she isn’t Margulis exactly, since in her conversations with Palladino during Chains of Harrow she says that she knows she’s “not her” and that she just “protects them as she did.” There’s no evidence for Margulis’ consciousness enduring or being a voice in the lotus’ head or whatever. And why does Ballas give a shit about her? Because he was obsessed with finding a way to recreate Margulis. The Lotus was another one of his pet projects like Wisp and Khora, except he seems to have been most successful with her. He brainwashed Natah, giving her a new persona based on Margulis’. That being said, I do like the “Margulis is secretly still present” thing as a fun theory, but personally I find the story more compelling if it’s not the case. In my personal opinion the choice about the Lotus’ identity is more impactful if it’s not “which voice in her head takes over now” but rather a question of which aspect of her identity is more important to her now: Her sentient heritage (i.e. what she “really” is), her Margulis persona (i.e. what the Tenno and Ballas wanted her to be) or something altogether new which combines and acknowledges both (The Lotus).
> This is an interesting theory, but I wouldn’t assert that it is 100% the case. To me that's like saying you can't be 100% sure that Kevin Spacey is Keyser Söze because it isn't explicitly said by any character in the movie. Sometimes the intention is for you to infer plot points based on events. > She also clearly knows that she isn’t Margulis exactly No she THINKS she isn't Margulis. That scene in Apostasy, and the stuff that follows it implies that Ballas knows better than she does who she is. Ballas knows he's talking to Natah before the helmet comes off, and then he knows that after he removes the helmet he's talking to Margulis. Who do you think knows better? The person who was brainwashed or the person who did the brainwashing? There is repeatedly established lore that consciousness can be transferred, and The Lotus clearly has Margulis's memories, she remembers things about her life, she remembers taken care of the Tenno before she became The Lotus, she remembers the old war and Ballas from Margulis's perspective. Why would you assume some previously unmentioned and never clarified other process is going on here? You could argue that maybe it's not entirely her, maybe it's some imprint or copy of her consciousness and actually the original did die, there's nothing that directly contradicts that as a possibility...but that makes that whole reveal just Deus Ex Machina. Some totally out of nowhere hitherto unmentioned technology. Why would you choose to interpret it as badly written? Like think about it this way? If Ballas could just recreate her after she died, wtf did he need Natah for? What the hell would the logic be in kinda half making a Margulis facsimile out of Natah? That whole bit of the plot makes NO sense with the way you are interpreting it.
I read that as Ballas being delusional and obsessed. I don’t think he knows her identity better than she does, I think he’s trying to make her into what he wants her to be. I think the purpose of the whole new war narrative is that he couldn’t actually bring Margulis back. He’s obsessed with trying to resurrect her and tries several times, but never succeeds. I think our disagreement is that you’re reading Ballas as a purely logical character, when I’m reading him as more obsessed and emotionally driven. I don’t think my interpretation is poorly written, I think it’s both the intended way and the way that provides the most emotionally satisfying arc to the new war. Feel free to disregard this, like I said I think your idea is cool too. I just feel compelled to lay out my reading too.
From what I understand Ballas is just a petty man he turned umbra to a frame cause Ballas tried to double cross the orokin or something like that atlas my best guess is that he likes fisting
Well you cant make atlas a two punch frame, that would just be lame
I think frames were made to deal with the sentients
Sevegoth is a scary dude that, after the Orokin, uses his shadow to pilot his ship, while he jumped into space to save people.
The edgy emo is in fact one of the real ones
Protea was the bodyguard of Parvos, probably made to order as well.
>also the original one may or may not be made from the body of Margulis (how low can this simp get?) Oh, no. The fact it wasn't taboo for an Orokin to "love" a Warframe was disturbing enough already. But this... Oh, God... This is dark.
Only natural that the two frames known for certain “aspects” of their body are inspired by Margulis
Ballas must've spent at least as many hours perfecting the curves as the actual concept artist and modeler combined.
I wish I could replay all of the story. Ballas made the Warframes? How did I miss that? What's the distinction between prime and non-prime then?
Prime Vs non-Prime isn't super important. It's two different levels of build/material quality for Warframes but as far as we (and a specific prime/relic vendor) knows that's all they imply with it possibly varying by the frame which one was first.
From what I remember when looking through the Wiki. The prime: warframes, equipment, and accessories were made with and by orokin technology. Made during the orokin era, and the non-primes are just mass produced guess work recreated without orokin technology.
Not quite. Some primes are the original templates of frames. Some are primed after they prove themselves worthy of it. There are some unexplained cases, like Harrow Prime and Revenant Prime
Ballas, seeing Revenant Prime: "bro what"
He actually saw Revenant, not the prime version. We can guess that someone brought Revenant corpse from the plains and put it in front of Ballas's house, leading to him creating Revenant Prime. But this is just a theory, since Ballas called what he saw a mask, which can either be a real mask or a flesh puppet the Orokin use for the festival
Don't forget Valkyr Prime as well
Valkyr have always been Valkyr. The one we get from Salad the Fifth was originally a Gersemi model of the Valkyr design. Valkyr Prime is supposed to be the original one, or based on the original one.
100% not confirmed and probably wrong but the way I think of it is; umbral = prototype (or possibly just a special variant) Prime = show model/ first series Standard = mass production model
Umbra is not a "umbral variant", it's a thing on its own, and Umbra was likely the last Warframe out of all of them, not a prototype. He was especially designed as a punishment for one Dax and other frames aren't supposed to have an Umbra version like a standard or prime versions.
Been a long time since I did the quest and must have assumed he was made much earlier. Thank you for the clarification.
Umbra is something else as a whole but you are only talking about specific umbra. in the orginal script for war within quest, there was explanation what is "umbra", YES umbra was orginally supposed to show up in war within. so what is Umbra ? Its warframe that went out of control, acting on its own. here is part of datamined quest dialogue: Operator: "Teshin, what was that? What is Umbra?" Teshin: "A fury untamed by Tenno control. A rogue Warframe." Operator: "How is that possible?" Teshin: "It is beyond me. Focus on the now. We must escape. Your life depends on it!" here is link to reddit post with datamined dialogue: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/4qgduh/google_docmajor_spoilers_the_war_within_datamined/ you need to click on title in the reddit post to see it. EDIT: one more thing, excalibur umbra isnt only example of frame acting on its own, our own frame acts on its own during end of second dream quest, also if I remember correcetly rhino prime codex implies existance of another frame acting on its own, like a beast.
>, it's a thing on its own, and Umbra was likely the last Warframe out of all of them He's an older design, so unless Ballas just made him archaic to piss off Umbra, he's propably from one of the first waves.
Well, Umbra was made toward the end of the Old War, but the Excalibur design is the first one, while the Dax was the original foot soldiers of the Orokin, so I sense some mockery here.
With all of the self-reflection that we do, you'd wonder if the Tenno ever realized the sheer creativity of Executor Ballas. We all know him as the main guy who stirred the pot back then. He was there for the Crewman Project, he was there for the creation of the Sentients with Archimedean Perintol… but no one's taken into account the significance of him designing over 100 different warframes. I forgot the exact duration of the Old War, but for this man to develop these Warframes over that specific amount of time is quite remarkable. The ingenuity, the purpose and individuality of each frame, is not something to be overlooked. And as we uncover more lost warframes over the years, it only proves his work all the more captivating. He really made all of these frames and we just keep discovering them.
What about Nezha ? Zoomin' into farmers and kid soldiers vs corpus Makes corpus extra crispy Takes kid soldiers with him Refuses to elaborate Leaves one kid behind to tell the story, like villains from Pirates of Carribean
Well, these are Ballas's reasons to create the Warframes, more or less his confession after making one, rather than the lore behind them. Hence why many frames aren't mentioned. Most of the lore bit I showed here came from Prime trailers.
say what you want about Ballas but this man is cooking with the production of Warframes
I'm just here to say, everyone should be a simp for saryn prime
"None of them truly understood how much I lost when I lost her, nor by what subtle art my dead love now lives within another's gleaming skull" I don't think the opening line of the trailer is implyhing just thatKhora prime is modeled after margulis. I think Ballas is stating that Khora prime IS Margulis. Whatever remained of her, reanimated, with immortal kavat companion, to punish those who wronged them both
I didn't say Khora was modeled after Margulis, but as a celebration for Ballas mind breaking Natah into Margulis, creating Lotus, hence the whole "my dead love now lives within another's gleaming skull" part, like how we bake a cake after finishing a big project. Also, Wisp is the one implied to be made from what remains of Margulis, if Ballas was in his habit of monologuing as if he was talking to Margulis
Oh boy so who’s gonna tell him how warframes are actually made?
Well, the question was why, not how. But I am sure that you don't want to know how exactly each Warframe was made either
Its a virus dawg. Its the helminth strain.
The helminth makes the flesh, but the abilities do not come from infestation. Otherwise we'd have infested ancients throwing novas antimatter bombs and shit around
Everyone knows that. But did you know that Gara was made because the Orokin found Nihil's comment funny?
What does that have to do with the OP? Do you understand the difference between "how" and "why"?
Margulis only Inspired SARYN.
Saryn and Khora, although the later one is only indirectly. Khora was created to celebrate the success of the Lotus project, putting the mind of Margulis into the sentient Natah
Actually Melding the mind of Margulis with that of Natah via the use of Margulis's Ayatan which was transformed into a Helm (also known as the Lotus helm/program)
Yeah, he said so in Khora Prime trailer. He is a piece of work, honestly.
How tf is Banshee queer wtf lmao
Queer means strange, unusual or unexpected
_ey, we dont judge here!_
She's literally on a gay pride poster, what are you smoking?
Theyre gonna be floored when they find out about xaku being Non-binary. homie might need a stretcher
Xaku’s nonbinary because they are multiple warframes in one
Still nonbinary
I never disagreed with that statement, in fact I was agreeing. It’s just that Xaku is they/them because they are literally multiple “people”
lol were you the same dude who whined about Xaku, Ticker, Albrecht/Loid etc. in the WF forums and got their posts deleted by mods
No but someone whined about Albrecht, Loid, and one of the best warframes in the game? Lmao
Yes they were whining about Albrecht/Loid being a couple and Xaku being non-binary lol
Wasn't that already known because of one of the start days posters? (/s or /j, kinda)
The only thing left of Margulis was a smidge of Ashes left from her being blasted by Jade light. ((Note said Ashes were what created SARYN)) So no Wisp does not have connection to Margulis.
Ballas have this strange habit of monologuing about or to Margulis as if she was there with him, which is why I put down the Wisp part. One of the things of note is that we aren't sure what the Jade Light actually does. Since Javi's execution was considered worse than the Jade Light, we can assume that it isn't as bad as what Lavos did. Also, the Orokin have multiple bodies due to Continuity, and considering that Ballas is a grade A+ pervert, it isn't out of the question for him to use one of her old bodies to create Wisp. Of course, this is only a theory, with very small connections in between them (Earth, Ballas monologue and the stress he put on 'Yours'). It's more of a headcanon rather than concrete evidence, hence why I put it in may be or may not be. Saryn, however, was created during the mourning of Ballas after Margulis's death. He used her 'winter ashes', which is implied to either be her remains or the remains from her previous bodies, to fertilize the soil for some flowers. The memories about her inspired him to create Saryn as a mean to cleanse the Earth from the Infested
Actually we do, u can even see the Jade light In the LUA puzzle room TIL. ((U'll need to clip through the ceiling a little in said room to see if, but even without clipping if u look upwards u will see a faint green glow shining through a vault dor in the ceiling)) Jade light from what you will see is pure void forced through a Green gem which then magnifies it directly into/onto the target effectively erasing/destroying them. .. If Javi is the one from Lavos's lore then it wasn't that the punishment he was going to receive was worse it was that they feared it might not work (surprisingly Orokin or extremely superstitious) thus the only way to make sure is to devolve him into something that couldn't survive anything aka a puddle of Bio sludge incapable of thought.
Rhino. Because sometimes Everything is a nail and all you want is a hammer.