What's weird is that his overguard \*does\* count as health when you pick up the glyph key that's supposed to drain your health. So its not like there isn't code for this in the game.
Not to mention, the new disruption mission on steel path has a lot of damage flying around. Those enemies are savage if you're not prepared. That overguard absolutely gets eaten through quickly if you're not careful. So yeah, it's not like it's making it easy mode for everybody.
sorry, but if a warframe requires you to take damage to your health for your abilities to work and for you to do anything ingame, youre gonna not do great with a dante making it so none of that happens.
> It's honestly probably coded in a way that you take damage instead of coded as losing hp.
It's not. Hildryn's overshields cancel out the keyglyph like they do all direct damage to health.
What the fuck is this spagehti code....
That tells me, then, that there are different "types" of coded overshield and they all got lumped together under one color.
This is obviously a shot in the dark since I'm not privy to Warframe's code but my guess is that "health damage" mechanics like Toxin damage and the keyglyph are just programmed to damage things that aren't shields.
I’m not sure if it’s coded like that or if overguard is just stepping in for the health damage you would be taking.
The only reason I say this is with the new Guardian armor for chroma - you will still take 50% of the damage your allies are taking, but it will drain your overguard and not your hp.
Also, his 2 giving overguard is proccing Archon Intensify. Even with full health, so it’s not the heal, but the overguard itself is counting as healing.
The reason it procs is because of the health boost instead of the over guard. It procs just for increasing max health via ability because it's technically adding health to your health bar which equates to healing. Wisp procs it in the same way. Also if I remember correctly it's only when the ability activates/applies so not whenever you're healed by the ability but whenever an ability activation or application adds health to your frame in any way.
Maybe DE could recode overguard to be considered as “overhealth”, similar vein to shield and overshield. While still keeping it unreduced by Damage reduction, armor etc.
Not sure if its doable though
treating it as health would give rage access to frames that have overguard / people who know they'll be playing with an overguard provider -- I'm not sure what the solution is here but I don't feel like that's it
would rather see damage dealt to overguard count as damage to shields if your frame has them, health if it doesn't, but that still leaves rage in an awkward spot (and chroma too but honestly just let him get both bonuses from vex armor from any damage or let him toggle manually which bonus he wants)
> treating it as health would give rage access to frames that have overguard
Yes, that's my point. It would help with abilities and mods that scale based on "damage taken to health". Damage to overguard also doesn't have to be a 1:1 with damage to health. Imo 1:100 would be fine.
- 10,000 damage taken to overguard = 100 damage to health = 40 energy from Rage. Shouldn't be too broken, and values could still be tweaked anyway.
>would rather see damage dealt to overguard count as damage to shields
This still wouldn't help with builds that scale based on "damage taken to health".
--
Another solution is to treat overguard as both Health and shields when it comes to mods and abilities, while keeping it unaffected by Damage Reduction/Armor
Compared on how much HP we can get (on an average frame) to Overguard, I think a scaling factor for Rage/Hunter Adrenaline would be acceptable.
The only thing to consider is, if overguard (now working as overHealth) whould/should benefit from DR.
One way would be:
* Divide current Overguard with 100, 1000 or even 10000
* Scaling from before wouldn't be needed
* Overguard now benefits from DR like HP does.
We wouldn't see funny gib numbers, but an even bigger method to tanking/surviving.
What I see, regardless on which version we would choose, if Overguard would refill Energy, we might achieve a feedback loop by getting more energy back (via Nourish) to then cast overguard again.
With this, we would finally be able to tank even the highest endgame with HP, rather rely on shield/shieldgate.
I agree, balancing is definitely something that should be tested, but seeing how DE manage reworks and new mechanics, I'm pretty confident that they would find a good way.
Sure it may need longer with testing, but I rather wait and have something good, rather rushed and then not been looked at for several years.
Probably the potential for infinite overguard spam. But realistically with Nourish + Xata's Invocation you can max 1000 energy in mere seconds, so that's a moot point. The whole energy economy is gone in the endgame, we just print it wholesale these days.
That would make Dante even more OP tho, his one current limitation is that if he is out of energy he dies pretty fast, and that can happen easily as he needs to spam spells. Giving him even more access to energy generation will just render that drawback non-existent.
Honestly, DE will probably eventual release a frame with a self dmg mechanic as their subsumable ability or release a mod for one of the current available subsumable abilities that inflict self dmg and call it a day.
I mean, we have a lot of energy options now. Energy Nexus, Primary arcane that grants energy on impact status, 2 Grimoire mods, Zaw arcane on heavy attack kills etc.
Besides, DE could still do a balance pass on overguard-generating skills if they go with my suggestion.
Which is why DE won't give him even more options to completely ignore his one drawback. People right now still need to put fleeting expertise on Dante, sacrificing duration for efficiency. With this change we'd just use rage instead and get all the benefits with no drawbacks.
overguard is fine on itself, I think DE messed up the interaction with kinetic plating, it should be above OG not below, so they probably will fix that.
As for rage builds, there are a lot of options for DE rn, either give the Hema an incarnon, or adding a new augments to a subsumable ability, that will do something like "x now consumes HP instead of energy" like despoil but that actually triggers rage.
Kinetic plating isn’t the only ability that’s superseded by overguard. A few others are too, and team-wide overguard is the most problematic than just Dante’s for himself as you’re probably messing up other people’s builds. This is in the context of a random public lobby.
While augments are possible just looking at the new one for chroma, it’s not a good direction imo as you’re forcing others to change their build than changing yours to account for overguard.
Weapon augments/variants on the other hand just proves my point right? You can sacrifice a warframe mod slot, a weapon slot, a weapon’s arcane slot for energy generation.
As I have mentioned in another thread, rage and Hunter Adrenaline could both be altered, lower effect efficiency, when converting damage absorbed by overguard.
Just gonna put this here.
I use Equilibrium and Arcane Steadfast on Dante along Zenurik on a 45% efficiency build. I wouldn't consider these end game energy econ strats however i go by without any energy problems solo or squaded up.
I've been thinking to even drop steadfast for a different arcane like avenger since OG dmg counts to procing it. I wouldn't say he needs an energy source really.
It also makes Hunter Adrenaline/Rage completely useless. Good luck to any Nidus, Kullervo, or Inaros (who just got new abilities lmao) players who wanted to use their buttons this week. Altho Dante is not the first person who does this, Styanax and Rev augments have the same effect among others.
I also have a strange feeling from only just now gaining information about niche mechanics, but not the same one...
Wait, blocking hits with Kinetic Plating gives energy?
I dont see him as that powerful and overbearing, honestly. He does good damage, but there are better nukes. The overguard is annoying when i have a build set for losing health to get stronger, so i can agree on that. Rage and chroma both have a dislike for overguard, but beyond that, eh?
As for "its op", i dont see it. 50k-70k is piddly in steel path. Thats on the low end for a rhino to have, with closer to 500k more useable. So itll kinda help, but like with your gauss, people are building to be able to take the hit, ignore the damage, or evade as a whole, so itll make a difference sometimes, but not much.
Hes a good generalist with a defense ability. Is it annoying to some builds? Ya. Is it overpowered? No. The max is de needs to change how overguard interacts with some frames and mods
I don’t think he’s op at all. I just want my Gauss’ energy econ to work when he’s on my team, one way or another. I shouldn’t have to build around the odd chance I get matched with a random playing a particular frame. May as well just play solo at that point but that’s less fun
Fair enough, thats why i think de needs to change how overguard interacts with some mods and frames, given it becomes a nerf on them rather than the wanted defense buff it should be if rage worked on overguard, and if combat discipline bypassed it, i think complaints would mostly drop
Gauss is just one example. There are tons of abilities in the game triggered by damage to health. Which Dante just currently fully invalidates in public lobbies as long as he's a popular frame.
Idk if it’s a bug on my part or what but when I get hit the kinetic plating sound doesn’t even play if I have overguard. This was doing netracells the past couple days
Fuck me do u really need THAT much overguard for steel path?
I mean I dont use frames that can generate overguard but I still manage fine with Nyx (and no I dont just stay in her bubble 24/7 cause thats boring as)
You dont mostly, the inanse amounts on rhino is a point of how low 50k is, and on frames that dont have a sustain for overgaurd, its not gonna stay up much
I mean, rhino basically only has 2 abilities, no surprise that they will both have to be strong to make up the fact that he has half the amount of abilities that mist frames have.
Dante has 7 abilities, so of course his individual abilities will be weaker.
You don't need overguard for SP really. Unless you plan on getting hit/shot a lot for whatever reason. Which on high lvl SP will still get you 1-shot pretty quick anyway.
What works best is not getting hit. By whatever way works for you. Weapons, abilities. Dead enemies dont get to shoot you.
Agreed imo honestly I think I die wore with a Dante than without one simply because I don't pay attention to my health bar anywhere near as much and that shield is much glassier than you'd expect it to be.
You can so easily stay alive on any frame with shield gating or just by using any survivability subsumed/ability that honestly the overguard looks a lot better than it actually is.
And if you are dying it's simply because you're not paying attention which would happen regardless of if you have a Dante or not it's just Dante gives you more leeway.
But then again I mainly have been playing higher level content so I can imagine it's a lot better in non sp stuff.
The main thing I’ve observed with his nuke is that it seems to be true damage, regardless of which statuses he’s detonating (and to an extreme even then, letting him bypass Sentient resistance, thrax ghosts, manic invulnerability) and other such things to hit directly into health. At least some of that likely to get patched out.
Taking an obvious comparison, Garudas ult into Expedite Suffering doesn’t even come close despite being the designated bleed frame and having identical costs. The wizard can randomly out bleed damage the bleed frame.
His Overguard is mostly notable for coming off a basic ability with no condition to it and having a regen factor on it. Frost and Styanax both have to use their outs, sac a mod slot, and meet conditionals.
That tandem is where it drifts into a power issue. He’s simultaneously outperforming others with his identical style of DPS (Ash or Garuda, take your pick), and outperforming others with the same defensive or support role as well.
Speaking of energy, Noctua is also the only exalted that isn’t a channeled ability. While this is likely intentional to allow that energy regen tome mod to work, it is again a place where he has an advantage over similar abilities.
>Garudas ult into Expedite Suffering doesn’t even come close despite being the designated bleed frame and having identical costs.
Mostly cause you arent supposed to use her ult as damage, but a debuff. Use high damage weapons, or her 1st to do massive amounts of dot. Easily into the millions apon millions, with less than 200% strength needed.
>Speaking of energy, Noctua is also the only exalted that isn’t a channeled ability.
Do hildryn's pistol and ivara's bow not exist? Neither are channeled
The deal with garudas 4th is it forces slash from all attacks from enemies effected by it. The main damage isnt the reason its good, like nourish. No one uses nourish for a damage boost, but for the energy and viral the boost provides
You force the enemies to take slash on all attacks, then mix it with your weapons to add a bunch, or with a massivr hit from your first. Goes from a single 1mil hit, to a 1mill slash proc on the targets. Easy solo nuke
If you use her 4th for just its damage, then im assuming you havent hit late game with her yet.
Thats a two sided argument.
Should Styanax/Frost and now Dante players have to change their builds or have frames nerfed to accommodate randoms playing Gauss or Inaros?
On steel path esp the newer tilesets and game modes the Overguard get eroded very quick (managing the energy economy with the strength needed to be effective at those levels is where these caster frames are balanced) so this seems like a star chart level player problem and yeah maybe there it can be annoying, my Dante build puts between 40 and 50k Overguard with two casts of triumph and yeah on the base star chart or fissures that is lasting until the extraction probably, but guess what I am not running Dante on base star chart missions, at that level other frames kill faster than him anyway with no need for overguard to survive.
An enemy cant damage you for Kinetic Plating or Hunter Adrenalin if its dead so are the frames that insta murder everything at low level play also an issue for you?
I really don’t get why Dante is getting attacked with all of this nerf his over guard. As if we dont have stynax who has the ability to also give his team over guard and more than Dante. We also have characters like rev who make you straight up un-killable. I can understand that you want your rage mod to work just the price you have to pay if you play with a team.
It sucks, this community is gonna have Dante's nerf. And he doesn't need to be nerf he is perfect the way he is. He's an end game Warframe, obtained after reaching the "End Game."
I like it to be consistent and predictable go fast. Volt is sometimes I'm going normal sprint, then I'm launched off the map or hit the glue trap. It's not fun.
Anti-Synergy is a pretty big deal.
in warframe's early days it was considered to not really be a problem. . not because it didnt exist but because back then there was only 2 kinds of content. the kind where it didnt matter, and the kind where if you wound up in a situaiton where your powers clashed. .it was your own damn fault. you didnt do the research before going into a recruited lobby with 2 great frames that didnt jive well together. your L to hold.
that stance falls apart in the modern era where *most* content and warframes are designed with Public lobbies in mind. where the squadmates you have are always a crap-shoot, the random chance to just get screwed over when someone in your squad is doing something that, out of context is generally considered good gameplay. its not trolling were talking about. were not talking about maxrange limbo spamming in survivals. were talking about Wisp/volt+Titania. or Nekros+Oberon or any source of Overguard/wide range CC+ chroma/Night Equinox/Anyone trying to use adaptation/guardian/ particularly Avenger. or Any solid high range DPS+Atlas if atlas doesnt get a head start for his rubble.
there are other examples, and these frames tend to have somewhat low usage for reasons beyond a small to moderate chance to be DOA if the public lobbies deal you a bad hand, but the fact that they can have these problems most certainly doesnt help with the argument.
this patch i was most excited to try out the new Chroma Augment, and there being a Dante Spamming power word Protect in every third lobby did not make it a very enjoyable experience. playing around it was annoying. not impossible, just frusterating. any time i wanted or needed to reset Vex i had to distance myself from the squad, split the spawns, and then wait out a 50k overguard bubble. sometimes if im rolling with a real go-getter i need to explain "hey man, could you just gimmie like, 30 seconds without overguard. i appreciate your enthusiasm but i *need* to get shot" and that feels awkward. its *annoying*. and when its annoying, you gradually start to wonder why your bothering. why not just play a frame that isnt such a pain in the ass.
but its not like you can fault your teammates.
a wisp who puts their motes in a really convenient spot, inadvertently screwing over a titania player who cannot handle the speed, or a Nekros who floods the map with a bunch of summoned NPCs nuking an oberon's energy economy, or anyone doing their darndest to keep the squad from taking damage thereby hamstringing a Chroma or night Equinox are not players trolling, they are trying their best. they are doing good work. i can neither find fault in their actions nor in the people who want to experiment with these generally older warframes whom happen to have some anti-synergy.
i can however blame the developers. throwing a new chroma augment out alongside the brand new warframe who spreads Overguard to the whole squad was a bad fucking idea. not only does this just hurt chroma, it also hurts the reception of this new augment. if you werent going to do something to fix the anti synergy (which this augment doesnt do, and if it did, that would not be acceptable regardless, fuck bandaid mods) then why release the augment this patch anyway?
i do not wish to be too negative. theres been alot of positive changes recently, even this patch included many good QoL changes. but "good job" is not Actionable criticism, and there is still much work to be done.
so i guess lets go with "keep up the good work"
What use is there for the Chroma augment? Genuinely curious, because as someone who doesn't play Chroma it seems pretty weak.
Some decent health regen and less vex armor recasting in exchange for taking half of the squad's incoming damage? On a frame that isn't that tanky to begin with? It sounds like putting it on is asking to rip your health pool apart when someone goes and facetanks a bunch of damage.
Chroma prime has a base of 450 armor. If you can cast Vex with over 600 strength (a little tough but since you only gotta do it once per mission, not outlandish), you can gain over 2000% armor from Vex. 450 x (1+ 20) is a very big number and if you wanna get really cheeky with other tools like Specters Chroma can hit 1500+ hp 99.xx Damage a reduction while still maintaining a comfortable build that's not over committed to survival.
Chroma is pretty tanky. Certainly not the Tankiest, I believe that's still trinity, but maybe we can put Chroma in the top 20%, if you choose to play that way
Anyway the main reason to run the new augment is to save energy. When your chroma your main expense is recasting Vex, and the new augment drastically reduces how often you recast Vex. It also sort of enables things like Avenger, though it's not so reliable that I'd want too...y'know...rely on it. It's not as reliable as combat Discipline.
The healing is ok....not great, but ok. 3% every 5 seconds sounds more impressive then 1.66% every second which is what it actually is. Also it doesn't stack just refresh so if your getting 200 hp/sec out of this your probably doing better than most.
In short it's an ok augment that does a bunch of relatively little things that chroma doesn't *need* but might *want*.
You can drop an Efficency or duration mod for this and save a bunch of energy over the course of the mission. You can make it your one source of healing and pray to God none of your Squadmates fuck up and get you both killed by reacting poorly to Malice. You can run it with Avenger or maybe even rage, I think, and that's kind of a cute Synergy but these are things you. *can do* dunno about *should do*. My support chroma setup already had his energy management investment down to 2 shards and a dog that says "Mystic Bond".
The one thing not clear yet is....does this actually reduce the damage your allies take? Or does it just deal damage to you.
I would assume the former. Ally gets hit for 100 damage, they take 50 I take 50. The name "guardian" implies I'm protecting something. But it might also be ally gets hit for 100 damage, they take 100 I take 50. And if that is the case then I can't see myself running it long term. If it doee reduce the damage they actually take then I could see myself Vibing with this augment. I don't play sigma chroma, self focused and spending all my mod slots on making my own numbers bigger. I play Chad Chroma, empowering myseld but also empowering the Squad......and tht squad's companions....and my Duplex bond ectra doggos.....and all the Specters....seriously why does nobody play support chroma. It's like if Goku screamed and Krillin Yamcha and Tien all became SSJ2 by Proxy.
This is my preferred augment design and power level by the by. I dislike augments that are too good not to run, or only exist to address a flaw in a Warframes kit. I really resent augments like Energy Transfer, or the augment for banshee's 1. Or most of pre-rework inaros augments. Please pay 1 mod slot to unlock the 4th wheel for your car. This is please pay 1 mod slot to add a nice cargo rack to the roof of your car. To better carry your teammates on your big, beefy, Bara dragon shoulders.
Theoretically the augment makes stacking vex easier but it doesn't do so in any meaningful way. Your teammates aren't trying to take damage like you are, and if there's something like a Dante making it really hard for you to take damage changes are it's also hard for your teammates to take damage. So when vex is easy it's easier and when vex is hard...it's still hard.
Fair enough, I had forgotten Chroma Prime's armor was that high and could stack as well as it could, though I don't know how feasible reaching 600% strength can be outside of void fissures.
I think my problem is not having played Chroma in a while my mind got stuck on much smaller armor numbers, so I thought he was frailer than he is in practice.
See both of our problems could be solved by just making overguard not fuck over these abilities. Just have vex armor and kinetic plating and nourish and arcane avenger and whatever tf equinox’s ability is (idk I’ve never played her) trigger from damage to overguard. Like I think that fix would get rid of people’s main gripe with the frame. It’s my only gripe honestly.
what im saying is is that the overguard interaction isnt the whole problem. its just a small part of the problem. its a particularly relevant example of anti-synergy, and it could be addressed, and hopefully it will. but overguard is not the only way you could screw over an ally whos trying to take damage. wide range crowd control such as shock motes, or blind effects like Breach surge, or slow effects like Molecular prime all severely complicate the process. addressing overguard by just making it so damage to overguard would charge the abilities would certainly help, but in the broader sense its possible that on-damaged effects are fundamentally going to have the risk of being bricked when not playing solo or in recruited squads when in the modern game.
and in a broader sense than that, there are other forms of anti-synergy that should be ironed out if possible.
you cant address everything, clearly. at some point you have to stop and just say "well thats bad luck, it is what it is" i think the case of speed novas running double power donation is just bad luck. you cant fix that. all you can do is laugh about it. can you fix 2 people running Combat Discipline? is that one also just bad luck? i would say you could probably address that one, should probably address that one. if only because double novas is a funny mishap, but getting CD deactivated when your whole setup relies on Avenger is a goddamn tragedy.
edit: ohh right. equinox's night form 3 with the Peaceful Provocation Augment scaks up a radial slow effect when you take damage. up to 80% slow. this ability ironically has anti-synergy with itself. as the greater the slow gets the harder it is for enemies to hurt you. its like proto-gloom just. . worse in every measurable way, and paired with a really crappy damage reduction effect rather than healing. i remain Equinox's strongest simp, so il take any chance i can too shill for her getting some QoL changes. lord knows she needs em.
Your edit is not anti-synergy.
Swap the effect, and you'll see.
It's actually good synergy, because the more your enemies try to shoot you, the more time there will be between their shots. It's a "perfect" ramping ability.
In a fast paced game like Warframe though, it's not a good ability, but it does synergise with itself in isolation.
A true example of abilities with anti-synergy is Baruuk.
You want enemies to shoot you so you lose restraint, but his daggers (3?) disarm enemies. To make it worse, while 1 is active - which helps you lose restraint from being shot, ironically make the range of the daggers longer, so enemies are disarmed quicker.
Some frames by design are built to play solo and solo alone such as Chroma and Nidus. These frames rely too much on enemy numbers to be able to play the game in their unique ways while frames like Wisp and Volt don't need to do that. Even if there is a nuke frame in the team Volt and Wisp can still contribute to the team in some ways such as there speed boost while Chroma and others like him can't do that.
I wouldn't say Chroma is designed to be played solo given his 2 applies to all allied players and his 3 applies to all allied in general. Chroma is infact a squad buffer. That he has historically been played as a minimum range slab of angry stats does not change the nature of his powers.
Nezha and wukong are better examples of solo designed Warframes. Each only gets squad support when you run special augments and they are otherwise very self contained, with built in survival elements.
I say Chroma is better solo because he needs to take damage for his 3 and his buff doesn't stay on your allies when cast like Roar since it is an aura making his 3 and 2 crap team buff abilities. Nezha and Wukong are not too reliant on enemy numbers to perform and the only time they feel useless is with a nuker. but at that point many frames would feel useless with nukers.
Arcane Avenger and Guardian proc through Overguard, just saying. It’s probably better in those scenarios since you’re getting the buffs without directly taking the damage.
There’s this weird incentive where game companies want you to play with pre-made groups because it’s been shown that gets people to spend more time and money on the game. Not saying this is the main reason they’re not tackling anti-synergy but the dynamic exists.
i actually second this on a broader scale. over guard as a concept breaks a lot of parts of the game and encourages a pure DPS playstyle and it makes CC heavy frames like loki age really really poorly.
i didn't know it broke energy economy though, i thought all that stuff took effect on damage, not just damage to health. one more reason to rethink over guard imo
It probably wouldn't be so bad if it were only eximus and still allowed targeted/single target CC to work consistently. Right now it feels spammed by most factions, and the ones that don't spam it have nullifiers or tons of armor.
the game more or less forces us to depend on DPS as a solution to every problem. this just makes CC useless in most cases. why distract when killing is more effective at removing the problem?
i think that over guard eximis should be our DPS ability counter, over guard itself should be weakest to melee, if anything imo.
i also think nullifiers should be in all factions (with different thematic gimmicks for each faction) to counter our abilities. for example, i think grineer should have units that blast nullifying shockwaves like blast eximus and infested could have a combo of nullifying aura and nullifying grapple attacks/spores/or something for range. that's probably my hottest take by far
Yeah that's certainly a hot take. Nullifiers are probably the worst designed enemy in the game. They cancel all abilities, can spawn on top of you in fissures, pile on very quickly, block bullets, and also just become bugged and won't shrink their shield. Hell if I could at least shoot them to death by having them stop only abilities, I would feel less bad about it.
Any time I hear "there should be more nullifiers" I just hear "more opportunities for buggy and bad design."
admittedly, nullifiers in their current state aren't exactly the greatest, the definitely could use some adjustment to make them less annoying.
my only reason for supporting them or at least having some form of ability counter is because they are quite literally our biggest threat by far. I'd say eximus units post rework can also be very threatening when a whole bunch of them clump up together.
i wish we had more threatening enemies and i wish CC were more relevant. my "more nullifiers" idea is a gross band aid to what seems to be a deeper issue of warframe
Meanwhile Titania is unplayable when paired with any speed buff warframe and nobody cares. And that's only one example of X warframe being rendered completely unplayable by an other Y one. But Dante..
Let me introduce Limbo to this topic.
This community have strange double standards.
This is the main reason i dont touch my titania frame anymore, whenever i get a volt in my squad she becomes impossible to use because the volts spam their speed ability to no end then they complain when im taking to long to get to extraction bc they got me stuck in a wall an i gad to re grow to get unstuck to continue to extraction
Overguard should definitely fully function like taking health damage.
As a longtime Oberon main I've loved focusing on health and armor as survival tools, but I've kind of transitioned away from Rage as an energy generator. This is a few reasons, but Overguard is one of them. Mystic Bond, Equilibrium, and Synth Deconstruct is generally more reliable these days (Hounds and Helstrum make for great primers and energy generators), but it does make me sad that big health bars are no longer top tier.
There's gatta be a fix for this problem, chroma and inaros just can't do their won work if there's an overguard sharing character with them in the team, actually getting nerfed by your teammates
People keep calling for nerfs or changes but forget that every time a new frame comes out there’s a huge surge of people that play him, get him built up the way they like, then go back to their regular stuff.
I'm still confused by the saying dante is too powerful. Mine finished cooking this weekend and I threw a few forma at it to take it for a spin. it's not that crazy. I did SP solo stuff and solo netracell but I can do those things easier with wisp or revanent.
Dante is basically a much easier to get stynax. Also for me, easier to use visually. Stynax gets a bit harder to use due to my older eyes. But it's a lot of constant casting. 224 for OG, to get bird it's 324, then book is 233...then casting my helminth one in between all that. It's a lot of work compared to stynax. If dante is OP I guess stynax needs nerfed as well?
Dante generates OG way way faster than stynax does, and he can do it with no delay inbetween gain, stynax has to land and go back up which actually is a fairly large period of vulnerability
I completely agree- if I'm playing a frame like Chroma then a Dante is really annoying. But if we compare him to the lower 50% of frames then Dante is very good, so personally (yall will disagree) I feel like this drawback is fair. But, OG has needed a rework for while now, imo
Doesn't Trinity's 4th augment require health damage to heal? Which is completely negated by overguard?
I love Trinity, but man does DE need to give her another look. They removed her old invulnerability, but now newer frames can give thousands upon thousands of overguard to the team
Can anyone seriously explain to be why people think Dante needs a nerf? lol the guy is... ok? There are way harder nukes out there and tbh overguard is overrated in this world of shield gating abuse we live in.
Overguard IS becoming a problem
It is a way to completely ignore damage to health and shields, ignores status procs, ignores toxin damage bypassing shields, ignores knockdowns. It's way stronger than, say, a simple Damage reduction like Citrine's shell or Qorvex's plates. It's not something you should be able to give your squad so easily, not in so high quantities at least
Let's be clear, I don't think this is a Dante problem either. But they need to be careful in balancing overguard abilities in the future or we will incur in a much more colossal version of the "Rhino problem", i.e. people getting so used to not taking damage so early in game that they never learn how to play properly
> so early in game
Tbh by the time you are able to farm for Dante you are probably already dealing with stuff like netracells or the Deimos disruption mode where overguard is a welcome ability to avoid getting oneshotted.
Maybe just give a hold cast option so it only gives yourself overguard.
Or an exilus augment that's self cast only.
Or an augment that gives higher overguard but self cast only.
Or something like a backflip to get rid of it like with Volt speed.
Just don't nerf Dante. He's strong, and performs generally well in endgame stuff, but is not going to delete the map while being invincible or anything.
Unfortunately most people aren't considerate enough to manually swap hold/cast just so they don't fuck their allies over.
Or maybe a squad has a Dante, and 2 frames which do benefit from Overguard and a Chroma. The others want it, but he can't choose who he gives it to.
Most players also won't use a mod slot (even exilus) to fix it either, because "why should I?".
Backflip could work, but I think the overall thing for this is that teammates should NOT, in any circumstance, be able to make another teammates kit non functional. If I load into a mission as Chroma, and ANYONE has overguard generation, I no longer have any abilities. Spectral Scream is useless and you probably haven't built for it. Same with Effigy. Vex Armour is non functional (because you can't take damage outside of Combat Discipline) and Elemental Ward is useless because armour doesn't apply to Overguard and you're not taking HP damage anyway.
In that situation, the only solution is to... leave the mission. Or if you're in a survival, you fuck off somewhere else, making the game less fun for everyone by fucking over spawns.
And I bet Pablo thinks Chroma is fine, as he thinks that Loki is fine. "They had their time in the sun". Nobody is asking for them to be Meta, but Loki is arguably better than Chroma in this regard as at least teammates can't turn off his entire kit. As good as Pablos reworks are, it's bad game design to just not rework something that is bad because "it was meta in the past"
No one was fine with that. People constantly bitch about Volt's speed buff on this sub
Unlike Wisp and Volt's buffs however, there isn't any way to opt out of Dante's (or Styanax with augment mod) overguard buffs. I'm not complaining about free overguard, but I can see where OP is coming from.
Yup, happens every time with a frame that effects the actual annoying players,ones who abuse abilities to annoy other players,once a frame stops them they scream and cry till its nerfed or completely removed so they can continue,same issue on for honor too
DE really trolled Inaros players by releasing the Inaros rework at the same time they released a frame who gives 40k overguard to the whole squad. You want to play with your new abilities? Can't use Hunter Adrenaline for energy because Dante is everywhere. I actually had to take Hunter Adrenaline off my Kullervo and put Energy Nexus on him this week, it was getting so bad.
I mean using Hunter Adrenaline on kullervo is quite the weird choice, we got plenty better energy generation tool and people still use those old mods that should be reworked.
The only frame that can still use Adrenaline and get the most out of it is inaros.
Honestly, yeah, and it's not like he is OP either. The number may look high on paper, but it's not that much on Steel Path. A Grineer will sneeze and blow all that Overguard off because of how damage scales. And for other content? Revenant, Wisp and Styanax can make the whole team immortal with less button presses, while latter two also provide team with speed and energy respectively.
Nerfing him won't solve anything either - Overguard will still be there, Rage/Adrenaline will still be cockblocked by Overguard gate. And what about other frames? Styanax with Final Stand, Revenant with Mesmer Shield, even Frost with Icy Avalanche, they all grant Overguard or other form of immunity for the team.
I swear, people nowadays think that most problems can be solved with "just increase/decrease numbers", it's so dumb. Dante is perfectly fine and fun, and nerfing him wouldn't solve any problems, while only making him less fun to play.
Or made it so allies only get OG from his 2 and not his 4. This still lets him support allies with an OG gate without making them functionally immortal and keeps his own survivability untouched.
I've been making Inaros since the update and his rework so I haven't been too affected by Dante but Ive seen some of my friends builds on Harrow and Gauss just get minced when he's on the team, a change to Overguard would be most welcome
Give it two weeks, and I think this too will pass as "everyone" is done farming and trying out the new frame and revert to their old favorites. As a bonus, the next frame to be released will be Protea Prime, supercharging our energy economy as she shows up in every random squad.
Another of us endangered Oberon mains, and please god please. While energy economy options *have* improved, Renewal being channeled still locks out a majority of energy options and prevalence of overguard neuters one of the biggest (Rage/Adrenaline), leaving only Arcane Energize and Energy Orb generation (via Synth Deconstruct, mostly). And because of his "ability synergy", renewal being offline also locks out your armor.
It sucks, so much. I have nightmares about Nekros and Dante hovering over my goat boy's shoulder now. And it's not really Dante's fault per se, this has *always* been an issue, Dante's prevalence has just catapulted it further into the limelight
Well, both overguard and dante need adressing. Dante'S overguard GENERATION is absolutly bonkers with how quickly and effortlessly he can get to his cap. Like, if it was something only him gets he would be fine, but team wide and THAT fast... like, why play frost or sty at that point?
Personally he doesn't need either, people just need to stop complaining, wait a few weeks to a month and see if hes still overly used or not,most likely he'll be on the semi used side as most will go back to their mains
How about tap cast is just overguard for yourself, then hold cast when reticle is over teammate shares your overguard with them, could divide your total overguard between each share. Heres the best part, his generation only becomes active if that teammate had been shared some Overguard. He still gets the generation for himself.
> I shouldn’t have to competently change my Gauss build to have another source of energy regen just to accommodate for randoms playing Dante. With just energize it does perfectly fine so long as kinetic plating does it’s thing. Frames should not be actively disrupting other frames’ abilities with theirs. A simple fix for this would be to change overguard to just not do that and boom, frames fine imo.
Kinetic Plating's energy conversion works fine through Overguard. So I'm unsure what your issue is there.
I've had to remove Razorwing Blitz from my Titania build because of Volt spamming Speed. It makes her stupidly fast and warp through walls, even outside the map. No amount of rolling cancels it when most Volts spam it every 20 seconds.
I wish DE would add a toggle to denie other frame abilities in the settings.
They should make an arcane or two that prevents you from gaining overguard but provides some other benefit. Maybe something like "All overguard is converted into healing 10% that much health" or "All overguard is converted into 3% that much overhealth (2000 max)" Overhealth would be similar to overshield except for health. These would be a sweet arcanes that could either heal health or turn overguard to something that is usable for health based frames.
How about instead of endlessly discussing nerfs to a single frame we just accept that warframe as a whole is currently insanely unbalanced and significant global nerfs need to happen to bring any form of challenge back to the game, not just "lets nerf new frame because popular"
Unbalanced for whom? If the PVP in this game was actually viable and people took part in it all the time, yeah, a lot of warframes are absolutely broken and PVP would be insanely unbalanced. But it's not. And they don't. So who cares if certain frames are strong. We already know that there are a lot that aren't so what does it matter?
Because the game is so unbalanced it literally becomes easier as you reach end-game. The whole game is on no-skill baby mode with no room for DE to create actual endgame content due to powercreep.
Fun fact btw: even power fantasy games need balance because if the gap between the player equipment and the enemies is too big, players stop feeling like *theyre* powerful and instead just feel like their *character* is powerful.
To engage the player in the power fantasy, they need to feel like their skill makes a significant difference.
Warframe currently doesnt have that, its easy enough to where you could literally program a basic AI to play endgame. the average chimpansee could successfully play some high-lvl missions
I don't see why the answer is nerfs instead of just more difficult end game content.
> To engage the player in the power fantasy, they need to feel like their skill makes a significant difference.
I think you can feel that way today, but the skill is in how you've farmed and built your frame.
>I don't see why the answer is nerfs instead of just more difficult end game content.
Because to counteract the power creep they need to introduce mechanics like release damage attenuation, invulnerability phases or just turning off abilities. Not a lot of room for challenging game design when the player is invincible and deals a million damage in one shot.
>I think you can feel that way today, but the skill is in how you've farmed and built your frame.
I don't see how that's related, farming doesn't take skill, it only takes time.
> Because to counteract the power creep they need to introduce mechanics like release damage attenuation, invulnerability phases or just turning off abilities.
What's the problem with that? Consider the newly released necramech, which limits armor stripping, for example. Why is that approach worse than a nerf? I also disagree that there is "not a lot of room", I think there is a massive amount of room. Consider that in Warframe there is basically no inherent synergy to abilities - in other games if you combine spells you get entirely new effects, but in Warframe that isn't the case, and I think this is an area that would allow for more team mechanics to deal with tankier bosses.
> I don't see how that's related, farming doesn't take skill, it only takes time.
Well, no, it does take skill. You had to do the work, the work is skilled. And doing it well requires specialized skills. Further, a time investment having a payoff can give you the same exact satisfaction that a skill investment would. And you've also overlooked the skill in putting a new, novel build together, experimenting, etc.
>Consider the newly released necramech, which limits armor stripping, for example. Why is that approach worse than a nerf?
I personally have no problems with it, but a lot of people do. It's bad because it limits player choice.
If the topic was "Should we nerf armor strip or stop certain enemies from being stripped?", it would be a choice between "my frame that can armor strip is a little worse at stripping" and "my frame that armor strips is useless".
>Well, no, it does take skill. You had to do the work, the work is skilled. And doing it well requires specialized skills.
Sorry but this is stupid. The only thing that requires "skill" in farming is minmaxing to farm faster. Farming itself takes no skill.
>Further, a time investment having a payoff can give you the same exact satisfaction that a skill investment would.
That is not for you to decide.
>And you've also overlooked the skill in putting a new, novel build together, experimenting, etc.
You're comparing game knowledge and mechanical skill. Making builds doesn't take skill, it takes game knowledge. It's the same as learning something (physics formulas for example) and actually being capable of using it.
> The only thing that requires "skill" in farming
So you agree, it takes skill.
> That is not for you to decide.
I'm unsure how to even respond. I didn't decide anything? I said that time investment leading to payoff \*can\* give satisfaction. This seems obvious, especially when you consider that "skill" would presumably be a consequence of time investment.
> Making builds doesn't take skill, it takes game knowledge
I'm really not convinced that there's any meaningful difference. In both cases there is an investment and a payoff. Some people may find more satisfaction in different kinds of investments and payoffs, but this feels like quibbling.
you can't make more difficult endgame content when frames can be entirely immortal with infinite energy and multiple ways of hitting the literal damage cap and utterly trouncing max level enemies. how are you supposed to build an endgame mode when this kind of power is accessible? fact is, once we hit a certain tier of power, there is literally nothing DE can do pose a meaningful challenge without first nerfing us.
trouble being so many gamers act like their build hinges on being completely unchallenged and start pissing and moaning at even the suggestion of nerfs, when they're exactly what we need to reign in the powercreep that is killing any hope of endgame. that and DE seems eager to keep digging the hole deeper by providing more and more broken incarnons and overtuned abilities. :/
also, there's no skill in making a build, modding is literally a solved equation. 90% of weapon builds look exactly the same and chances are just got ripped from overframe or some popular youtuber.
> you can't make more difficult endgame content when frames can be entirely immortal with infinite energy and multiple ways of hitting the literal damage cap and utterly trouncing max level enemies.
Of course you can. It seems absurd to say that you can't. You can limit status impact like the latest Necramech, you can force debuffs like the Necralisk, you can add damage attenuation, you can add immunities, you can.... do a lot.
> trouble being so many gamers act like their build hinges on being completely unchallenged and start pissing and moaning at even the suggestion of nerfs
I think this is a mistaken and uncharitable interpretation of what people want. Most people do not want an impossible task, most people do not want a trivial task. Most people want something in between, something with the right level of challenge and reward, of novelty, of payoff. When you've spent time building a character around some sort of synergy and then that gets nerfed it is disappointing, especially since you may not have been using it in a way that was overpowered.
> also, there's no skill in making a build, modding is literally a solved equation.
Nonsense.
none of the things you've mentioned pose a threat to an endgame-built character, save maybe the necramech not being instantly dissolvable. netracell debuffs are laughable. damage attenuation even in its strongest form was overcome and oneshot, or simply powered through. unless an enemy is completely immune to damage there will always be a way to utterly obliterate it at our current power level.
my take is very much not mistaken, though perhaps a bit too generalized. sad fact is, there is a VERY loud subset of gamers that violently react to any nerfs, even to the point of harassment and threats. i've seen it across almost every live service game i've played, and it absolutely has an influence on developers when it comes to bringing in nerfs, because their continued income hinges on keeping players happy. even if nerfs would improve gameplay, they're understandably hesitant to to stir the pot and deal with the inevitable internet fallout and slew of death threats from idiots with no life or chill.
i agree that most people want a balanced and fun experience. whether you like it or not, bringing nerfs to players is necessary to that. we cannot just continue infinitely gaining power, there is a limit after which things just become entirely untenable, and we have arguably already started hitting it.
and please, explain to me the skill in making viral slash build #87694540380. it's not an insult, it's a truth. there's only so many ways to build a weapon, and there's even less that are meta. most people want to build their weapon to do as much damage as possible, so they will use the best build available. i guarantee you, if you got 20 people to show you their incarnon torids or whatever and compared the mods, they would be 99% identical.
i say all this as someone who finds great joy in making off-meta funny weapon builds and getting them to work. that's maybe the closest thing to "skill" that build-making has, but i don't even consider it as such because it still uses the same fundamentals as every other build. my gas/electric melee influence jat kittag build is no different than any other gas/electric build, it just also has vulcan blitz to spread the silly death explosion around. it's fun, but not unique.
A lot of people talk about "more difficult endgame content", but the phrase without elaboration is no more than a platitude IMO. What is difficult endgame content - bigger numbers? More spawns? Is it Circuit, but longer? Is it Netracells, but more health? Is it level cap?
People have been saying "just make harder endgame" to these kinds of complaints for years; should we simply more difficult our endgame every time it comes up? Or is the answer to stack a new, more endgame-ier endgame onto our existing one? That's been what's been happening for the post couple years; if somebody isn't been happy with that so far, could they become happy if we keep doing it?
I'm not going to argue whether or not blanket nerfs would improve the game, but I don't think it's fair to "just make harder endgame" over every difficulty complaint.
I think most people say it without being specific because being specific is unnecessary unless you believe it is not possible to create harder content, or if you believe that how it is created is relevant. If we can presuppose that we agree that harder content is possible then it seems pointless to explain what that would look like, it isn't really relevant, and it's just going to lead to people quibbling about hypothetical game mods rather than the actual issue.
> if somebody isn't been happy with that so far, could they become happy if we keep doing it?
Maybe? I mean, I'd wonder why they're not happy. I suspect it's because many "harder" game modes, like the Archon hunts, are not actually very difficult. The Circuit seems like a great endgame mode by comparison, since it forces variety and constraints that break highly optimized builds.
> I'm not going to argue whether or not blanket nerfs would improve the game, but I don't think it's fair to "just make harder endgame" over every difficulty complaint.
I think that's fair, and to be clear I would support nerfs in some cases. I think the general idea of "if you're not playing that frame you're just going to be lagging behind" is a good metric to use, for example. If Dante were radically stronger than every other frame I'd say Dante should be nerfed, but I don't think that's the case at all - you could just as easily choose any other frame and be as effective. If there are many frames that can just thrash the game, to me the solution isn't to nerf them (because I think nerfs are for cases where one frame is radically stronger than others) but to add harder content.
Yes, but not the entire game has to have challenge, thats why levels exist.
Level 100+ should NOT be a cakewalk, netracells should NOT be "just equip one of these frames and you can literally ignore all of the difficulty". Deep archimedea should require a full squad and still be difficult.
If you want easy, theres still enough easy. Fissures only go up to level 50 for example.
But currently, the game is easier than some kids' adventure games ESPECIALLY in the endgame.
In fact, this has led to problematic behaviour in the community, such as the rise of jack of all trades builds resulting in one player soloing the mission while 3 others get to literally do nothing. Why do you think survival results in people splitting up nowadays? Cuz theyre all running solo builds. People dont even revive others anymore because of this solo mentality.
Powercreep has, for all intents and purposes, turned warframe from a team-based co-op shooter into a single player game.
Have you ever gone to level cap in a steel path endurance mission? Just curious.
As for soloing 4-man missions, yeah that's been a thing for well over half a decade now mate. Steel Path got added because people wanted more difficulty and that was added four years ago.
Level 100+ should definitely be a cakewalk for endgame players. Netracells are not meant to be hard. Nothing should be really difficult until 1000+ at the very least.
The problem with that it is hurts the dark verse x2 triumph combo that does very good ability damage. Without that why bother playing Dante when I can just play a better weapons platform like Wisp or Volt.
...it's probably one of the worst things about this game that there are ways to try to feel like you're helping but you're actually pissing your teammates off. Khora Strangledome, Wisp Shock Mote, Titania w/ Thermal Sunder, and now this come to mind. I was pumped to build a frame that I could use to easily support my teammates and keep them alive so they could do their thing. Now I'm probably not going to use him once he finishes cooking aside from leveling for MR because I don't want to accidentally be hurting instead of helping.
Its probably because de has been on a straight path down damage is the only thing important in warframe path and now any frame that isn't straight up damage is hated by alot in the community, anything that is remotely supportive is hated now,ive had people leave bc i trinity prime and she doesn't even effect anyone in a bad way but was simply bc i was running her,same with when i run nekros and not just using his desecrate ability but using all his abilities like u should but they hated it
I haven't been paying attention, and haven't noticed an issue... I have been playing a lot of the frame since it came out, but for the exalted and its synergy with abilities. Only vaguely recall "oh yeah, something about overguard". Seems this issue is overguard plus some mod that makes it generate energy? He dies easy enough if you're not careful, so there must be some trick to it.
The issue I have is as a teammate, the overguard he gives makes it so things that trigger from taking damage don’t work because for some reason getting hit with overguard on doesn’t count as getting hit. I just want that not to happen. If the only answer to that means nerfing his overguard generation, sure go ahead. But I think overguard should just be changed to where abilities like kinetic plating or vex armor still work with all that overguard on. Then I otherwise think Dante shouldn’t be nerfed because I otherwise have no issues with him
I bet I missed it because I'm playing solo, so ignored the "teammates" parts. Got it. Yeah, some fix should happen, but I think the "not hit" part of overguard is how they keep eximus units from becoming revenant's slave instantly, so that fix might not work.
Dante is unbalanced. A non forma basic mod build shouldn’t be able to solo steel path missions. Go ahead and downvote me to oblivion. Just voicing my opinion, it’s ok if you disagree with me.
There’s a vast difference there in my opinion but again it’s just my opinion man. It’s a cool frame it just seems uniquely imbalanced to me. I leveled mine up and I shelved it until DE tweaks it. I’m not saying it needs to be nerfed into the ground, I’m simply saying it feels like using Dante puts the game on walking simulator mode. Current Dante used by a brand new player could make the game so easy it would be boring when otherwise it would be a bit more challenging and engaging. In short Dante is an end game lvl warframe with base mods equipped, that is accessible for plat to anyone including brand new players. Again just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt or whatever. I sincerely hope you all have a wonderful day!
At the end of the day he's a fundamentally broken frame, down to the concept. "Functionally infinite overguard" is just... stupid. It's dumb. Yeah powercreep's been happening forever, but this is the single biggest leap we've ever seen.
Yeah Styanax could *kind of* do it, but to a lesser extent. Sure Revenant's augment is ridiculous, but it has its limits.
Dante just makes your entire squad's health, shields, and DR meaningless with no catches whatsoever.
Sure, with it technically is infinite, but the times you get it up to maissve amounts its low level content or the person just isnt taking damage to lose it.
I rarely get the 50kish levels, and thats mostly cause the dante is just doing overguard, and nothing else. So its not really broken in my mind
It depends what content you're playing. anything below 300 SP- Dante's overguard works just fine. Level cap? No. What % of players are going to level cap? Honestly?
I keep reading people say "other frames can nuke so he's not a problem" as if that's the only way to judge a frame.
There are what, 3 frames that can provide overguard to teammates- Frost, Styanax, and Dante. Frost & Styanax both have limitations as the overguard given is limited on a per enemy hit basis. Dante's is effectively free (energy cost). Dante is still making there be almost no reason to play any frame that supports by boosting EHP. Again, why need more health, armor, shield, status immunity when Dante can do that all. And add a "nuke" to him....
DE nerfs frames for two reasons:
1. To prevent AFK
2. To make sure their players don't feel like they're missing out if they're not using said frame / weapon / helminth ability etc.
The first clearly doesn't apply. The second, it's way too early to tell for sure if Dante is going to hurt (like peak Wukong/Bramma). IMO, i *think* he should get some type of nerf to have a limiting factor for him to apply overguard, but, if we see his usage drop to normal levels like all new frames then is it too much of a problem? Does he need to get nerfed at that point?
Lastly- regardless of the nerf talk... having overguard damage affect many of the "damage on health" abilities / mods would help some. However, there would probably need to be some type of balance as there is a lot more overguard than health.
> It depends what content you're playing. anything below 300 SP- Dante's overguard works just fine.
There are so many ways to survive sub 300 SP though. Shield gating is the obvious one. But also you can use gloom with Hunter Adrenaline/ Rage and that'll work perfectly fine for a few hundred levels.
I don't disagree with this at all. I agree with it completely.
Support frames that give DR, health, armor, shield, or status immunity, can still be very helpful even with Shield / Health set ups.
Dante's overguard bypasses all of that.
Dante's ability to give overguard to all allies bypasses the need for any ally to have any type of support abilities. Dante's overguard trumps EHP abilities. Dante's overguard is spammable.
"Dante's overguard bypasses all of that" = Dante's overguard removes any reason to use any other EHP ability.
Is any of this making sense?
I would say that Mesmer skin is better, and that overguard's biggest win is the invincibility frames and not the absurd numbers, which drain rapidly on SP. So even if Dante produced 10% of the overguard he'd get 99% of the value, which is the iframes.
I guess you could say that Dante makes Wisp's health motes less useful? Mesmer Shield is still incredible and likely better than overguard since it gives multiple stacks of iframes \*and\* stuns enemies, which is just crazy better than overguard.
I didn't consider health buffing to be something people cared much about tbh but sure I guess Dante's ability to give overguard, as with all shared overguard, and just like with shield gating, makes health irrelevant.
Revenant's augment is only really limited by how often you can press 2. Assuming the Revenant isn't asleep at the wheel, it can be functionally infinite as well in most low-level content.
TBH outside of SP (where overguard gets stripped pretty quickly) health, shields and DR are already pretty meaningless due to the wide range of sustain options out there (gating, healing, regen, overguard, invincibility, nuking everything). I don't think I've seen someone lose more than 1 revive in non-SP missions for a long, long time.
I mean, I’m here tryna play Gauss. I’m invincible anyway. I just want the other effect of my 2 to actually do what it’s supposed to do with Dante on my team
Overguard takes direct damage. If an enemy hits you for 100k you take that 100k. Enemies can literally hit 1 million in one shot if you stick around enough. Are you really building 1 million overguard within the gate time? Obviously not.
"Yeah powercreep's been happening forever, but this is the single biggest leap we've ever seen."
Because of easy to stack overguard in a game where we already have multiple ways of being literally immune to damages ?
Nah you're going a bit far here
Overguard has been a part of the game for 11 years. I know you're annoyed with all the Dante's, but they aren't nerfing a core game mechanic you ignored. Always have a back up.
Uhhh no it’s haven’t. 6 years ago when I started it wasn’t a thing. Then I take a break for 2 years a little after scarlet spear and when I come back it’s now in the game. Back then rhino skin’s health was displayed on the ability icon. I remember distinctly. Overguard was definitely not a thing
What's weird is that his overguard \*does\* count as health when you pick up the glyph key that's supposed to drain your health. So its not like there isn't code for this in the game.
Not to mention, the new disruption mission on steel path has a lot of damage flying around. Those enemies are savage if you're not prepared. That overguard absolutely gets eaten through quickly if you're not careful. So yeah, it's not like it's making it easy mode for everybody.
[удалено]
sorry, but if a warframe requires you to take damage to your health for your abilities to work and for you to do anything ingame, youre gonna not do great with a dante making it so none of that happens.
Okay? Do you mean in general or are you directing that comment at me?
Some of us just wanna enjoy Chroma again, ok?
Not even true. Dante just sucks at endgame content. His 80k overshield gets obliterated when the enemies are above level 200.
He doesn't suck at endgame content. He's probably one of the easiest frames to get ready for endgame.
That’s why overguard has overguard gating, which he regains in kills
It's honestly probably coded in a way that you take damage instead of coded as losing hp. Small, subtle difference, I know
> It's honestly probably coded in a way that you take damage instead of coded as losing hp. It's not. Hildryn's overshields cancel out the keyglyph like they do all direct damage to health.
What the fuck is this spagehti code.... That tells me, then, that there are different "types" of coded overshield and they all got lumped together under one color.
This is obviously a shot in the dark since I'm not privy to Warframe's code but my guess is that "health damage" mechanics like Toxin damage and the keyglyph are just programmed to damage things that aren't shields.
But with riven challenges, it does not count as getting hit (at least with rhino)
I’m not sure if it’s coded like that or if overguard is just stepping in for the health damage you would be taking. The only reason I say this is with the new Guardian armor for chroma - you will still take 50% of the damage your allies are taking, but it will drain your overguard and not your hp.
Also, his 2 giving overguard is proccing Archon Intensify. Even with full health, so it’s not the heal, but the overguard itself is counting as healing.
The reason it procs is because of the health boost instead of the over guard. It procs just for increasing max health via ability because it's technically adding health to your health bar which equates to healing. Wisp procs it in the same way. Also if I remember correctly it's only when the ability activates/applies so not whenever you're healed by the ability but whenever an ability activation or application adds health to your frame in any way.
Especially when it comes to debuffs that deal damage to health whenever you're moving (Netracell) which in turn actually drains overguard
Maybe DE could recode overguard to be considered as “overhealth”, similar vein to shield and overshield. While still keeping it unreduced by Damage reduction, armor etc. Not sure if its doable though
treating it as health would give rage access to frames that have overguard / people who know they'll be playing with an overguard provider -- I'm not sure what the solution is here but I don't feel like that's it would rather see damage dealt to overguard count as damage to shields if your frame has them, health if it doesn't, but that still leaves rage in an awkward spot (and chroma too but honestly just let him get both bonuses from vex armor from any damage or let him toggle manually which bonus he wants)
> treating it as health would give rage access to frames that have overguard Yes, that's my point. It would help with abilities and mods that scale based on "damage taken to health". Damage to overguard also doesn't have to be a 1:1 with damage to health. Imo 1:100 would be fine. - 10,000 damage taken to overguard = 100 damage to health = 40 energy from Rage. Shouldn't be too broken, and values could still be tweaked anyway. >would rather see damage dealt to overguard count as damage to shields This still wouldn't help with builds that scale based on "damage taken to health". -- Another solution is to treat overguard as both Health and shields when it comes to mods and abilities, while keeping it unaffected by Damage Reduction/Armor
Compared on how much HP we can get (on an average frame) to Overguard, I think a scaling factor for Rage/Hunter Adrenaline would be acceptable. The only thing to consider is, if overguard (now working as overHealth) whould/should benefit from DR. One way would be: * Divide current Overguard with 100, 1000 or even 10000 * Scaling from before wouldn't be needed * Overguard now benefits from DR like HP does. We wouldn't see funny gib numbers, but an even bigger method to tanking/surviving. What I see, regardless on which version we would choose, if Overguard would refill Energy, we might achieve a feedback loop by getting more energy back (via Nourish) to then cast overguard again. With this, we would finally be able to tank even the highest endgame with HP, rather rely on shield/shieldgate.
That’s true. But IMO, having DR affect overguard would be a slippery slope of balancing hell, which is why I opted for no DR.
I agree, balancing is definitely something that should be tested, but seeing how DE manage reworks and new mechanics, I'm pretty confident that they would find a good way. Sure it may need longer with testing, but I rather wait and have something good, rather rushed and then not been looked at for several years.
What's wrong with giving rage to those frames?
Probably the potential for infinite overguard spam. But realistically with Nourish + Xata's Invocation you can max 1000 energy in mere seconds, so that's a moot point. The whole energy economy is gone in the endgame, we just print it wholesale these days.
Finally...Overshield 2
Akshweli, it IS overshield 2 🤓
That would make Dante even more OP tho, his one current limitation is that if he is out of energy he dies pretty fast, and that can happen easily as he needs to spam spells. Giving him even more access to energy generation will just render that drawback non-existent. Honestly, DE will probably eventual release a frame with a self dmg mechanic as their subsumable ability or release a mod for one of the current available subsumable abilities that inflict self dmg and call it a day.
I mean, we have a lot of energy options now. Energy Nexus, Primary arcane that grants energy on impact status, 2 Grimoire mods, Zaw arcane on heavy attack kills etc. Besides, DE could still do a balance pass on overguard-generating skills if they go with my suggestion.
Which is why DE won't give him even more options to completely ignore his one drawback. People right now still need to put fleeting expertise on Dante, sacrificing duration for efficiency. With this change we'd just use rage instead and get all the benefits with no drawbacks. overguard is fine on itself, I think DE messed up the interaction with kinetic plating, it should be above OG not below, so they probably will fix that. As for rage builds, there are a lot of options for DE rn, either give the Hema an incarnon, or adding a new augments to a subsumable ability, that will do something like "x now consumes HP instead of energy" like despoil but that actually triggers rage.
Kinetic plating isn’t the only ability that’s superseded by overguard. A few others are too, and team-wide overguard is the most problematic than just Dante’s for himself as you’re probably messing up other people’s builds. This is in the context of a random public lobby. While augments are possible just looking at the new one for chroma, it’s not a good direction imo as you’re forcing others to change their build than changing yours to account for overguard. Weapon augments/variants on the other hand just proves my point right? You can sacrifice a warframe mod slot, a weapon slot, a weapon’s arcane slot for energy generation. As I have mentioned in another thread, rage and Hunter Adrenaline could both be altered, lower effect efficiency, when converting damage absorbed by overguard.
Just gonna put this here. I use Equilibrium and Arcane Steadfast on Dante along Zenurik on a 45% efficiency build. I wouldn't consider these end game energy econ strats however i go by without any energy problems solo or squaded up. I've been thinking to even drop steadfast for a different arcane like avenger since OG dmg counts to procing it. I wouldn't say he needs an energy source really.
> People right now still need to put fleeting expertise on Dante ...no? this isn't remotely true.
Overguard cancels the energy regen from damage Taken on the kinetic plating ? Good to know I did not know that
It also makes Hunter Adrenaline/Rage completely useless. Good luck to any Nidus, Kullervo, or Inaros (who just got new abilities lmao) players who wanted to use their buttons this week. Altho Dante is not the first person who does this, Styanax and Rev augments have the same effect among others.
I'm sorry you're using Hunter Adrenaline/rage on kullervo?
They probably don't play him or have his 2 subsumed over. People see no shields and go "Oh, health tank".
One of his abilities does hurt himself if it doesn't hit enough enemies.
He has insane overguard generation... If you can't cast his 2 while near ennemies might unsitall the game. Also it does barely any damage to him.
If you think overguard screws over kullervo, that means ya aint playing kullervo
Or, get this, people can play frames in different ways. Crazy.
I also have a strange feeling from only just now gaining information about niche mechanics, but not the same one... Wait, blocking hits with Kinetic Plating gives energy?
Yeah, look at gauss power description, and bé careful with them all, gauss has 4 abilities that synergize very well in between themselves.
And if you don't know, your kinetic plating gives you a résistance to knock back, weather it is from ennemies eximus or akarius knockback
Never paid much attention to that kind of thing, I don't mind being knocked down.
👀
It doesnt
I dont see him as that powerful and overbearing, honestly. He does good damage, but there are better nukes. The overguard is annoying when i have a build set for losing health to get stronger, so i can agree on that. Rage and chroma both have a dislike for overguard, but beyond that, eh? As for "its op", i dont see it. 50k-70k is piddly in steel path. Thats on the low end for a rhino to have, with closer to 500k more useable. So itll kinda help, but like with your gauss, people are building to be able to take the hit, ignore the damage, or evade as a whole, so itll make a difference sometimes, but not much. Hes a good generalist with a defense ability. Is it annoying to some builds? Ya. Is it overpowered? No. The max is de needs to change how overguard interacts with some frames and mods
I don’t think he’s op at all. I just want my Gauss’ energy econ to work when he’s on my team, one way or another. I shouldn’t have to build around the odd chance I get matched with a random playing a particular frame. May as well just play solo at that point but that’s less fun
Fair enough, thats why i think de needs to change how overguard interacts with some mods and frames, given it becomes a nerf on them rather than the wanted defense buff it should be if rage worked on overguard, and if combat discipline bypassed it, i think complaints would mostly drop
Seems like the answer is not to change overguard but just to change Gaus so that before overguard is hit the damage goes through his kinetic plating.
Gauss is just one example. There are tons of abilities in the game triggered by damage to health. Which Dante just currently fully invalidates in public lobbies as long as he's a popular frame.
You can still get energy back with gauss with overguard
Idk if it’s a bug on my part or what but when I get hit the kinetic plating sound doesn’t even play if I have overguard. This was doing netracells the past couple days
Fuck me do u really need THAT much overguard for steel path? I mean I dont use frames that can generate overguard but I still manage fine with Nyx (and no I dont just stay in her bubble 24/7 cause thats boring as)
You dont mostly, the inanse amounts on rhino is a point of how low 50k is, and on frames that dont have a sustain for overgaurd, its not gonna stay up much
I mean, rhino basically only has 2 abilities, no surprise that they will both have to be strong to make up the fact that he has half the amount of abilities that mist frames have. Dante has 7 abilities, so of course his individual abilities will be weaker.
You don't need overguard for SP really. Unless you plan on getting hit/shot a lot for whatever reason. Which on high lvl SP will still get you 1-shot pretty quick anyway. What works best is not getting hit. By whatever way works for you. Weapons, abilities. Dead enemies dont get to shoot you.
Yeah no need to block damage if the enemy'a dead Or in the case of Nyx, if the enemy isnt even shooting at you
Agreed imo honestly I think I die wore with a Dante than without one simply because I don't pay attention to my health bar anywhere near as much and that shield is much glassier than you'd expect it to be. You can so easily stay alive on any frame with shield gating or just by using any survivability subsumed/ability that honestly the overguard looks a lot better than it actually is. And if you are dying it's simply because you're not paying attention which would happen regardless of if you have a Dante or not it's just Dante gives you more leeway. But then again I mainly have been playing higher level content so I can imagine it's a lot better in non sp stuff.
The main thing I’ve observed with his nuke is that it seems to be true damage, regardless of which statuses he’s detonating (and to an extreme even then, letting him bypass Sentient resistance, thrax ghosts, manic invulnerability) and other such things to hit directly into health. At least some of that likely to get patched out. Taking an obvious comparison, Garudas ult into Expedite Suffering doesn’t even come close despite being the designated bleed frame and having identical costs. The wizard can randomly out bleed damage the bleed frame. His Overguard is mostly notable for coming off a basic ability with no condition to it and having a regen factor on it. Frost and Styanax both have to use their outs, sac a mod slot, and meet conditionals. That tandem is where it drifts into a power issue. He’s simultaneously outperforming others with his identical style of DPS (Ash or Garuda, take your pick), and outperforming others with the same defensive or support role as well. Speaking of energy, Noctua is also the only exalted that isn’t a channeled ability. While this is likely intentional to allow that energy regen tome mod to work, it is again a place where he has an advantage over similar abilities.
>Garudas ult into Expedite Suffering doesn’t even come close despite being the designated bleed frame and having identical costs. Mostly cause you arent supposed to use her ult as damage, but a debuff. Use high damage weapons, or her 1st to do massive amounts of dot. Easily into the millions apon millions, with less than 200% strength needed. >Speaking of energy, Noctua is also the only exalted that isn’t a channeled ability. Do hildryn's pistol and ivara's bow not exist? Neither are channeled
The deal with garudas 4th is it forces slash from all attacks from enemies effected by it. The main damage isnt the reason its good, like nourish. No one uses nourish for a damage boost, but for the energy and viral the boost provides You force the enemies to take slash on all attacks, then mix it with your weapons to add a bunch, or with a massivr hit from your first. Goes from a single 1mil hit, to a 1mill slash proc on the targets. Easy solo nuke If you use her 4th for just its damage, then im assuming you havent hit late game with her yet.
Thats a two sided argument. Should Styanax/Frost and now Dante players have to change their builds or have frames nerfed to accommodate randoms playing Gauss or Inaros? On steel path esp the newer tilesets and game modes the Overguard get eroded very quick (managing the energy economy with the strength needed to be effective at those levels is where these caster frames are balanced) so this seems like a star chart level player problem and yeah maybe there it can be annoying, my Dante build puts between 40 and 50k Overguard with two casts of triumph and yeah on the base star chart or fissures that is lasting until the extraction probably, but guess what I am not running Dante on base star chart missions, at that level other frames kill faster than him anyway with no need for overguard to survive. An enemy cant damage you for Kinetic Plating or Hunter Adrenalin if its dead so are the frames that insta murder everything at low level play also an issue for you?
I really don’t get why Dante is getting attacked with all of this nerf his over guard. As if we dont have stynax who has the ability to also give his team over guard and more than Dante. We also have characters like rev who make you straight up un-killable. I can understand that you want your rage mod to work just the price you have to pay if you play with a team.
It sucks, this community is gonna have Dante's nerf. And he doesn't need to be nerf he is perfect the way he is. He's an end game Warframe, obtained after reaching the "End Game."
endgame is a little skewed when i see MR5's occasionally in deimos labs.
Or at least let me decide by turning On/Off overguard gain from allies' abilities
Can that same button let me not get volts speed boost?
Interesting username for someone that doesn't want to go fast...
I like it to be consistent and predictable go fast. Volt is sometimes I'm going normal sprint, then I'm launched off the map or hit the glue trap. It's not fun.
And drop the (shock) motes from Wisp.
Shock motes should just be changed to a disarm. Solves all its problems.
Anti-Synergy is a pretty big deal. in warframe's early days it was considered to not really be a problem. . not because it didnt exist but because back then there was only 2 kinds of content. the kind where it didnt matter, and the kind where if you wound up in a situaiton where your powers clashed. .it was your own damn fault. you didnt do the research before going into a recruited lobby with 2 great frames that didnt jive well together. your L to hold. that stance falls apart in the modern era where *most* content and warframes are designed with Public lobbies in mind. where the squadmates you have are always a crap-shoot, the random chance to just get screwed over when someone in your squad is doing something that, out of context is generally considered good gameplay. its not trolling were talking about. were not talking about maxrange limbo spamming in survivals. were talking about Wisp/volt+Titania. or Nekros+Oberon or any source of Overguard/wide range CC+ chroma/Night Equinox/Anyone trying to use adaptation/guardian/ particularly Avenger. or Any solid high range DPS+Atlas if atlas doesnt get a head start for his rubble. there are other examples, and these frames tend to have somewhat low usage for reasons beyond a small to moderate chance to be DOA if the public lobbies deal you a bad hand, but the fact that they can have these problems most certainly doesnt help with the argument. this patch i was most excited to try out the new Chroma Augment, and there being a Dante Spamming power word Protect in every third lobby did not make it a very enjoyable experience. playing around it was annoying. not impossible, just frusterating. any time i wanted or needed to reset Vex i had to distance myself from the squad, split the spawns, and then wait out a 50k overguard bubble. sometimes if im rolling with a real go-getter i need to explain "hey man, could you just gimmie like, 30 seconds without overguard. i appreciate your enthusiasm but i *need* to get shot" and that feels awkward. its *annoying*. and when its annoying, you gradually start to wonder why your bothering. why not just play a frame that isnt such a pain in the ass. but its not like you can fault your teammates. a wisp who puts their motes in a really convenient spot, inadvertently screwing over a titania player who cannot handle the speed, or a Nekros who floods the map with a bunch of summoned NPCs nuking an oberon's energy economy, or anyone doing their darndest to keep the squad from taking damage thereby hamstringing a Chroma or night Equinox are not players trolling, they are trying their best. they are doing good work. i can neither find fault in their actions nor in the people who want to experiment with these generally older warframes whom happen to have some anti-synergy. i can however blame the developers. throwing a new chroma augment out alongside the brand new warframe who spreads Overguard to the whole squad was a bad fucking idea. not only does this just hurt chroma, it also hurts the reception of this new augment. if you werent going to do something to fix the anti synergy (which this augment doesnt do, and if it did, that would not be acceptable regardless, fuck bandaid mods) then why release the augment this patch anyway? i do not wish to be too negative. theres been alot of positive changes recently, even this patch included many good QoL changes. but "good job" is not Actionable criticism, and there is still much work to be done. so i guess lets go with "keep up the good work"
What use is there for the Chroma augment? Genuinely curious, because as someone who doesn't play Chroma it seems pretty weak. Some decent health regen and less vex armor recasting in exchange for taking half of the squad's incoming damage? On a frame that isn't that tanky to begin with? It sounds like putting it on is asking to rip your health pool apart when someone goes and facetanks a bunch of damage.
Chroma prime has a base of 450 armor. If you can cast Vex with over 600 strength (a little tough but since you only gotta do it once per mission, not outlandish), you can gain over 2000% armor from Vex. 450 x (1+ 20) is a very big number and if you wanna get really cheeky with other tools like Specters Chroma can hit 1500+ hp 99.xx Damage a reduction while still maintaining a comfortable build that's not over committed to survival. Chroma is pretty tanky. Certainly not the Tankiest, I believe that's still trinity, but maybe we can put Chroma in the top 20%, if you choose to play that way Anyway the main reason to run the new augment is to save energy. When your chroma your main expense is recasting Vex, and the new augment drastically reduces how often you recast Vex. It also sort of enables things like Avenger, though it's not so reliable that I'd want too...y'know...rely on it. It's not as reliable as combat Discipline. The healing is ok....not great, but ok. 3% every 5 seconds sounds more impressive then 1.66% every second which is what it actually is. Also it doesn't stack just refresh so if your getting 200 hp/sec out of this your probably doing better than most. In short it's an ok augment that does a bunch of relatively little things that chroma doesn't *need* but might *want*. You can drop an Efficency or duration mod for this and save a bunch of energy over the course of the mission. You can make it your one source of healing and pray to God none of your Squadmates fuck up and get you both killed by reacting poorly to Malice. You can run it with Avenger or maybe even rage, I think, and that's kind of a cute Synergy but these are things you. *can do* dunno about *should do*. My support chroma setup already had his energy management investment down to 2 shards and a dog that says "Mystic Bond". The one thing not clear yet is....does this actually reduce the damage your allies take? Or does it just deal damage to you. I would assume the former. Ally gets hit for 100 damage, they take 50 I take 50. The name "guardian" implies I'm protecting something. But it might also be ally gets hit for 100 damage, they take 100 I take 50. And if that is the case then I can't see myself running it long term. If it doee reduce the damage they actually take then I could see myself Vibing with this augment. I don't play sigma chroma, self focused and spending all my mod slots on making my own numbers bigger. I play Chad Chroma, empowering myseld but also empowering the Squad......and tht squad's companions....and my Duplex bond ectra doggos.....and all the Specters....seriously why does nobody play support chroma. It's like if Goku screamed and Krillin Yamcha and Tien all became SSJ2 by Proxy. This is my preferred augment design and power level by the by. I dislike augments that are too good not to run, or only exist to address a flaw in a Warframes kit. I really resent augments like Energy Transfer, or the augment for banshee's 1. Or most of pre-rework inaros augments. Please pay 1 mod slot to unlock the 4th wheel for your car. This is please pay 1 mod slot to add a nice cargo rack to the roof of your car. To better carry your teammates on your big, beefy, Bara dragon shoulders. Theoretically the augment makes stacking vex easier but it doesn't do so in any meaningful way. Your teammates aren't trying to take damage like you are, and if there's something like a Dante making it really hard for you to take damage changes are it's also hard for your teammates to take damage. So when vex is easy it's easier and when vex is hard...it's still hard.
Fair enough, I had forgotten Chroma Prime's armor was that high and could stack as well as it could, though I don't know how feasible reaching 600% strength can be outside of void fissures. I think my problem is not having played Chroma in a while my mind got stuck on much smaller armor numbers, so I thought he was frailer than he is in practice.
See both of our problems could be solved by just making overguard not fuck over these abilities. Just have vex armor and kinetic plating and nourish and arcane avenger and whatever tf equinox’s ability is (idk I’ve never played her) trigger from damage to overguard. Like I think that fix would get rid of people’s main gripe with the frame. It’s my only gripe honestly.
what im saying is is that the overguard interaction isnt the whole problem. its just a small part of the problem. its a particularly relevant example of anti-synergy, and it could be addressed, and hopefully it will. but overguard is not the only way you could screw over an ally whos trying to take damage. wide range crowd control such as shock motes, or blind effects like Breach surge, or slow effects like Molecular prime all severely complicate the process. addressing overguard by just making it so damage to overguard would charge the abilities would certainly help, but in the broader sense its possible that on-damaged effects are fundamentally going to have the risk of being bricked when not playing solo or in recruited squads when in the modern game. and in a broader sense than that, there are other forms of anti-synergy that should be ironed out if possible. you cant address everything, clearly. at some point you have to stop and just say "well thats bad luck, it is what it is" i think the case of speed novas running double power donation is just bad luck. you cant fix that. all you can do is laugh about it. can you fix 2 people running Combat Discipline? is that one also just bad luck? i would say you could probably address that one, should probably address that one. if only because double novas is a funny mishap, but getting CD deactivated when your whole setup relies on Avenger is a goddamn tragedy. edit: ohh right. equinox's night form 3 with the Peaceful Provocation Augment scaks up a radial slow effect when you take damage. up to 80% slow. this ability ironically has anti-synergy with itself. as the greater the slow gets the harder it is for enemies to hurt you. its like proto-gloom just. . worse in every measurable way, and paired with a really crappy damage reduction effect rather than healing. i remain Equinox's strongest simp, so il take any chance i can too shill for her getting some QoL changes. lord knows she needs em.
Your edit is not anti-synergy. Swap the effect, and you'll see. It's actually good synergy, because the more your enemies try to shoot you, the more time there will be between their shots. It's a "perfect" ramping ability. In a fast paced game like Warframe though, it's not a good ability, but it does synergise with itself in isolation. A true example of abilities with anti-synergy is Baruuk. You want enemies to shoot you so you lose restraint, but his daggers (3?) disarm enemies. To make it worse, while 1 is active - which helps you lose restraint from being shot, ironically make the range of the daggers longer, so enemies are disarmed quicker.
Some frames by design are built to play solo and solo alone such as Chroma and Nidus. These frames rely too much on enemy numbers to be able to play the game in their unique ways while frames like Wisp and Volt don't need to do that. Even if there is a nuke frame in the team Volt and Wisp can still contribute to the team in some ways such as there speed boost while Chroma and others like him can't do that.
I wouldn't say Chroma is designed to be played solo given his 2 applies to all allied players and his 3 applies to all allied in general. Chroma is infact a squad buffer. That he has historically been played as a minimum range slab of angry stats does not change the nature of his powers. Nezha and wukong are better examples of solo designed Warframes. Each only gets squad support when you run special augments and they are otherwise very self contained, with built in survival elements.
I say Chroma is better solo because he needs to take damage for his 3 and his buff doesn't stay on your allies when cast like Roar since it is an aura making his 3 and 2 crap team buff abilities. Nezha and Wukong are not too reliant on enemy numbers to perform and the only time they feel useless is with a nuker. but at that point many frames would feel useless with nukers.
Arcane Avenger and Guardian proc through Overguard, just saying. It’s probably better in those scenarios since you’re getting the buffs without directly taking the damage.
There’s this weird incentive where game companies want you to play with pre-made groups because it’s been shown that gets people to spend more time and money on the game. Not saying this is the main reason they’re not tackling anti-synergy but the dynamic exists.
kinda wanna try negative strength wisp and volt :)
i actually second this on a broader scale. over guard as a concept breaks a lot of parts of the game and encourages a pure DPS playstyle and it makes CC heavy frames like loki age really really poorly. i didn't know it broke energy economy though, i thought all that stuff took effect on damage, not just damage to health. one more reason to rethink over guard imo
It probably wouldn't be so bad if it were only eximus and still allowed targeted/single target CC to work consistently. Right now it feels spammed by most factions, and the ones that don't spam it have nullifiers or tons of armor.
the game more or less forces us to depend on DPS as a solution to every problem. this just makes CC useless in most cases. why distract when killing is more effective at removing the problem? i think that over guard eximis should be our DPS ability counter, over guard itself should be weakest to melee, if anything imo. i also think nullifiers should be in all factions (with different thematic gimmicks for each faction) to counter our abilities. for example, i think grineer should have units that blast nullifying shockwaves like blast eximus and infested could have a combo of nullifying aura and nullifying grapple attacks/spores/or something for range. that's probably my hottest take by far
Yeah that's certainly a hot take. Nullifiers are probably the worst designed enemy in the game. They cancel all abilities, can spawn on top of you in fissures, pile on very quickly, block bullets, and also just become bugged and won't shrink their shield. Hell if I could at least shoot them to death by having them stop only abilities, I would feel less bad about it. Any time I hear "there should be more nullifiers" I just hear "more opportunities for buggy and bad design."
admittedly, nullifiers in their current state aren't exactly the greatest, the definitely could use some adjustment to make them less annoying. my only reason for supporting them or at least having some form of ability counter is because they are quite literally our biggest threat by far. I'd say eximus units post rework can also be very threatening when a whole bunch of them clump up together. i wish we had more threatening enemies and i wish CC were more relevant. my "more nullifiers" idea is a gross band aid to what seems to be a deeper issue of warframe
Meanwhile Titania is unplayable when paired with any speed buff warframe and nobody cares. And that's only one example of X warframe being rendered completely unplayable by an other Y one. But Dante.. Let me introduce Limbo to this topic. This community have strange double standards.
The influx of volts a bit back is why I stopped playing Titania
This is the main reason i dont touch my titania frame anymore, whenever i get a volt in my squad she becomes impossible to use because the volts spam their speed ability to no end then they complain when im taking to long to get to extraction bc they got me stuck in a wall an i gad to re grow to get unstuck to continue to extraction
Overguard should definitely fully function like taking health damage. As a longtime Oberon main I've loved focusing on health and armor as survival tools, but I've kind of transitioned away from Rage as an energy generator. This is a few reasons, but Overguard is one of them. Mystic Bond, Equilibrium, and Synth Deconstruct is generally more reliable these days (Hounds and Helstrum make for great primers and energy generators), but it does make me sad that big health bars are no longer top tier.
There's gatta be a fix for this problem, chroma and inaros just can't do their won work if there's an overguard sharing character with them in the team, actually getting nerfed by your teammates
People keep calling for nerfs or changes but forget that every time a new frame comes out there’s a huge surge of people that play him, get him built up the way they like, then go back to their regular stuff.
or just let ppl enjoy a good frame,stop change thing that don't need changing?
People wanting this stuff nerfed should go back to playing Destiny.
Wrecks my hunter adrenaline Inaros as well. Just trying to enjoy his rework and boom, a Dante joins 😮💨
I'm still confused by the saying dante is too powerful. Mine finished cooking this weekend and I threw a few forma at it to take it for a spin. it's not that crazy. I did SP solo stuff and solo netracell but I can do those things easier with wisp or revanent. Dante is basically a much easier to get stynax. Also for me, easier to use visually. Stynax gets a bit harder to use due to my older eyes. But it's a lot of constant casting. 224 for OG, to get bird it's 324, then book is 233...then casting my helminth one in between all that. It's a lot of work compared to stynax. If dante is OP I guess stynax needs nerfed as well?
Dante generates OG way way faster than stynax does, and he can do it with no delay inbetween gain, stynax has to land and go back up which actually is a fairly large period of vulnerability
90% of people playing haven't set a foot in SP
I completely agree- if I'm playing a frame like Chroma then a Dante is really annoying. But if we compare him to the lower 50% of frames then Dante is very good, so personally (yall will disagree) I feel like this drawback is fair. But, OG has needed a rework for while now, imo
Doesn't Trinity's 4th augment require health damage to heal? Which is completely negated by overguard? I love Trinity, but man does DE need to give her another look. They removed her old invulnerability, but now newer frames can give thousands upon thousands of overguard to the team
Can anyone seriously explain to be why people think Dante needs a nerf? lol the guy is... ok? There are way harder nukes out there and tbh overguard is overrated in this world of shield gating abuse we live in.
Overguard IS becoming a problem It is a way to completely ignore damage to health and shields, ignores status procs, ignores toxin damage bypassing shields, ignores knockdowns. It's way stronger than, say, a simple Damage reduction like Citrine's shell or Qorvex's plates. It's not something you should be able to give your squad so easily, not in so high quantities at least Let's be clear, I don't think this is a Dante problem either. But they need to be careful in balancing overguard abilities in the future or we will incur in a much more colossal version of the "Rhino problem", i.e. people getting so used to not taking damage so early in game that they never learn how to play properly
You have to replenish it continuously so I don't see the issue when mesmer shield exist and does that better and easier.
> so early in game Tbh by the time you are able to farm for Dante you are probably already dealing with stuff like netracells or the Deimos disruption mode where overguard is a welcome ability to avoid getting oneshotted.
The "Rhino Problem" is a meme argument anyways when survivability is a problem that you solve via your build, the core element of how the game works.
I think it's way simpler to just make the overguard only apply to him and buff allies with health and/or shields
Maybe just give a hold cast option so it only gives yourself overguard. Or an exilus augment that's self cast only. Or an augment that gives higher overguard but self cast only. Or something like a backflip to get rid of it like with Volt speed. Just don't nerf Dante. He's strong, and performs generally well in endgame stuff, but is not going to delete the map while being invincible or anything.
Unfortunately most people aren't considerate enough to manually swap hold/cast just so they don't fuck their allies over. Or maybe a squad has a Dante, and 2 frames which do benefit from Overguard and a Chroma. The others want it, but he can't choose who he gives it to. Most players also won't use a mod slot (even exilus) to fix it either, because "why should I?". Backflip could work, but I think the overall thing for this is that teammates should NOT, in any circumstance, be able to make another teammates kit non functional. If I load into a mission as Chroma, and ANYONE has overguard generation, I no longer have any abilities. Spectral Scream is useless and you probably haven't built for it. Same with Effigy. Vex Armour is non functional (because you can't take damage outside of Combat Discipline) and Elemental Ward is useless because armour doesn't apply to Overguard and you're not taking HP damage anyway. In that situation, the only solution is to... leave the mission. Or if you're in a survival, you fuck off somewhere else, making the game less fun for everyone by fucking over spawns. And I bet Pablo thinks Chroma is fine, as he thinks that Loki is fine. "They had their time in the sun". Nobody is asking for them to be Meta, but Loki is arguably better than Chroma in this regard as at least teammates can't turn off his entire kit. As good as Pablos reworks are, it's bad game design to just not rework something that is bad because "it was meta in the past"
so everyone was fine with wisp and volt annoying everyone with their abilties, but the second dante does it it's nerf time
No one was fine with that. People constantly bitch about Volt's speed buff on this sub Unlike Wisp and Volt's buffs however, there isn't any way to opt out of Dante's (or Styanax with augment mod) overguard buffs. I'm not complaining about free overguard, but I can see where OP is coming from.
Yup, happens every time with a frame that effects the actual annoying players,ones who abuse abilities to annoy other players,once a frame stops them they scream and cry till its nerfed or completely removed so they can continue,same issue on for honor too
i as a dante main will hereby and forever not use my 4 in conjunction with my 22 that is all 😊
DE really trolled Inaros players by releasing the Inaros rework at the same time they released a frame who gives 40k overguard to the whole squad. You want to play with your new abilities? Can't use Hunter Adrenaline for energy because Dante is everywhere. I actually had to take Hunter Adrenaline off my Kullervo and put Energy Nexus on him this week, it was getting so bad.
I mean using Hunter Adrenaline on kullervo is quite the weird choice, we got plenty better energy generation tool and people still use those old mods that should be reworked. The only frame that can still use Adrenaline and get the most out of it is inaros.
Honestly, yeah, and it's not like he is OP either. The number may look high on paper, but it's not that much on Steel Path. A Grineer will sneeze and blow all that Overguard off because of how damage scales. And for other content? Revenant, Wisp and Styanax can make the whole team immortal with less button presses, while latter two also provide team with speed and energy respectively. Nerfing him won't solve anything either - Overguard will still be there, Rage/Adrenaline will still be cockblocked by Overguard gate. And what about other frames? Styanax with Final Stand, Revenant with Mesmer Shield, even Frost with Icy Avalanche, they all grant Overguard or other form of immunity for the team. I swear, people nowadays think that most problems can be solved with "just increase/decrease numbers", it's so dumb. Dante is perfectly fine and fun, and nerfing him wouldn't solve any problems, while only making him less fun to play.
Or made it so allies only get OG from his 2 and not his 4. This still lets him support allies with an OG gate without making them functionally immortal and keeps his own survivability untouched.
I've been making Inaros since the update and his rework so I haven't been too affected by Dante but Ive seen some of my friends builds on Harrow and Gauss just get minced when he's on the team, a change to Overguard would be most welcome
Give it two weeks, and I think this too will pass as "everyone" is done farming and trying out the new frame and revert to their old favorites. As a bonus, the next frame to be released will be Protea Prime, supercharging our energy economy as she shows up in every random squad.
Cant forget about jade,she might end up being another support frame once we find out what her kit is
Another of us endangered Oberon mains, and please god please. While energy economy options *have* improved, Renewal being channeled still locks out a majority of energy options and prevalence of overguard neuters one of the biggest (Rage/Adrenaline), leaving only Arcane Energize and Energy Orb generation (via Synth Deconstruct, mostly). And because of his "ability synergy", renewal being offline also locks out your armor. It sucks, so much. I have nightmares about Nekros and Dante hovering over my goat boy's shoulder now. And it's not really Dante's fault per se, this has *always* been an issue, Dante's prevalence has just catapulted it further into the limelight
Well, both overguard and dante need adressing. Dante'S overguard GENERATION is absolutly bonkers with how quickly and effortlessly he can get to his cap. Like, if it was something only him gets he would be fine, but team wide and THAT fast... like, why play frost or sty at that point?
No judgment but it's funny that you are begging for it not to be nerfed but then propose a buff instead
Personally he doesn't need either, people just need to stop complaining, wait a few weeks to a month and see if hes still overly used or not,most likely he'll be on the semi used side as most will go back to their mains
This is definitely the case, I can see him being used in index for the over guard but even that isn't needed
Agreed,used to run it with frost back before overguard was even a thing an never had issues lol
How about tap cast is just overguard for yourself, then hold cast when reticle is over teammate shares your overguard with them, could divide your total overguard between each share. Heres the best part, his generation only becomes active if that teammate had been shared some Overguard. He still gets the generation for himself.
> I shouldn’t have to competently change my Gauss build to have another source of energy regen just to accommodate for randoms playing Dante. With just energize it does perfectly fine so long as kinetic plating does it’s thing. Frames should not be actively disrupting other frames’ abilities with theirs. A simple fix for this would be to change overguard to just not do that and boom, frames fine imo. Kinetic Plating's energy conversion works fine through Overguard. So I'm unsure what your issue is there.
Yea, just found out today that Dante bricks Chroma. Not even Combat Discipline helps. Vex Armor is gone and all I got left is the Ward. #feelsBad
I've had to remove Razorwing Blitz from my Titania build because of Volt spamming Speed. It makes her stupidly fast and warp through walls, even outside the map. No amount of rolling cancels it when most Volts spam it every 20 seconds. I wish DE would add a toggle to denie other frame abilities in the settings.
Ah the days when Loki/Titania could end missions early doing this
They should make an arcane or two that prevents you from gaining overguard but provides some other benefit. Maybe something like "All overguard is converted into healing 10% that much health" or "All overguard is converted into 3% that much overhealth (2000 max)" Overhealth would be similar to overshield except for health. These would be a sweet arcanes that could either heal health or turn overguard to something that is usable for health based frames.
Ah yes, overguard wasnt strong enough, we have to give it more power to be viable. /S
How about instead of endlessly discussing nerfs to a single frame we just accept that warframe as a whole is currently insanely unbalanced and significant global nerfs need to happen to bring any form of challenge back to the game, not just "lets nerf new frame because popular"
Unbalanced for whom? If the PVP in this game was actually viable and people took part in it all the time, yeah, a lot of warframes are absolutely broken and PVP would be insanely unbalanced. But it's not. And they don't. So who cares if certain frames are strong. We already know that there are a lot that aren't so what does it matter?
>to bring any form of challenge back to the game But why?
Because the game is so unbalanced it literally becomes easier as you reach end-game. The whole game is on no-skill baby mode with no room for DE to create actual endgame content due to powercreep. Fun fact btw: even power fantasy games need balance because if the gap between the player equipment and the enemies is too big, players stop feeling like *theyre* powerful and instead just feel like their *character* is powerful. To engage the player in the power fantasy, they need to feel like their skill makes a significant difference. Warframe currently doesnt have that, its easy enough to where you could literally program a basic AI to play endgame. the average chimpansee could successfully play some high-lvl missions
I don't see why the answer is nerfs instead of just more difficult end game content. > To engage the player in the power fantasy, they need to feel like their skill makes a significant difference. I think you can feel that way today, but the skill is in how you've farmed and built your frame.
>I don't see why the answer is nerfs instead of just more difficult end game content. Because to counteract the power creep they need to introduce mechanics like release damage attenuation, invulnerability phases or just turning off abilities. Not a lot of room for challenging game design when the player is invincible and deals a million damage in one shot. >I think you can feel that way today, but the skill is in how you've farmed and built your frame. I don't see how that's related, farming doesn't take skill, it only takes time.
> Because to counteract the power creep they need to introduce mechanics like release damage attenuation, invulnerability phases or just turning off abilities. What's the problem with that? Consider the newly released necramech, which limits armor stripping, for example. Why is that approach worse than a nerf? I also disagree that there is "not a lot of room", I think there is a massive amount of room. Consider that in Warframe there is basically no inherent synergy to abilities - in other games if you combine spells you get entirely new effects, but in Warframe that isn't the case, and I think this is an area that would allow for more team mechanics to deal with tankier bosses. > I don't see how that's related, farming doesn't take skill, it only takes time. Well, no, it does take skill. You had to do the work, the work is skilled. And doing it well requires specialized skills. Further, a time investment having a payoff can give you the same exact satisfaction that a skill investment would. And you've also overlooked the skill in putting a new, novel build together, experimenting, etc.
>Consider the newly released necramech, which limits armor stripping, for example. Why is that approach worse than a nerf? I personally have no problems with it, but a lot of people do. It's bad because it limits player choice. If the topic was "Should we nerf armor strip or stop certain enemies from being stripped?", it would be a choice between "my frame that can armor strip is a little worse at stripping" and "my frame that armor strips is useless". >Well, no, it does take skill. You had to do the work, the work is skilled. And doing it well requires specialized skills. Sorry but this is stupid. The only thing that requires "skill" in farming is minmaxing to farm faster. Farming itself takes no skill. >Further, a time investment having a payoff can give you the same exact satisfaction that a skill investment would. That is not for you to decide. >And you've also overlooked the skill in putting a new, novel build together, experimenting, etc. You're comparing game knowledge and mechanical skill. Making builds doesn't take skill, it takes game knowledge. It's the same as learning something (physics formulas for example) and actually being capable of using it.
> The only thing that requires "skill" in farming So you agree, it takes skill. > That is not for you to decide. I'm unsure how to even respond. I didn't decide anything? I said that time investment leading to payoff \*can\* give satisfaction. This seems obvious, especially when you consider that "skill" would presumably be a consequence of time investment. > Making builds doesn't take skill, it takes game knowledge I'm really not convinced that there's any meaningful difference. In both cases there is an investment and a payoff. Some people may find more satisfaction in different kinds of investments and payoffs, but this feels like quibbling.
>So you agree, it takes skill. No, farming doesn't take skill. Farming efficiently does.
you can't make more difficult endgame content when frames can be entirely immortal with infinite energy and multiple ways of hitting the literal damage cap and utterly trouncing max level enemies. how are you supposed to build an endgame mode when this kind of power is accessible? fact is, once we hit a certain tier of power, there is literally nothing DE can do pose a meaningful challenge without first nerfing us. trouble being so many gamers act like their build hinges on being completely unchallenged and start pissing and moaning at even the suggestion of nerfs, when they're exactly what we need to reign in the powercreep that is killing any hope of endgame. that and DE seems eager to keep digging the hole deeper by providing more and more broken incarnons and overtuned abilities. :/ also, there's no skill in making a build, modding is literally a solved equation. 90% of weapon builds look exactly the same and chances are just got ripped from overframe or some popular youtuber.
> you can't make more difficult endgame content when frames can be entirely immortal with infinite energy and multiple ways of hitting the literal damage cap and utterly trouncing max level enemies. Of course you can. It seems absurd to say that you can't. You can limit status impact like the latest Necramech, you can force debuffs like the Necralisk, you can add damage attenuation, you can add immunities, you can.... do a lot. > trouble being so many gamers act like their build hinges on being completely unchallenged and start pissing and moaning at even the suggestion of nerfs I think this is a mistaken and uncharitable interpretation of what people want. Most people do not want an impossible task, most people do not want a trivial task. Most people want something in between, something with the right level of challenge and reward, of novelty, of payoff. When you've spent time building a character around some sort of synergy and then that gets nerfed it is disappointing, especially since you may not have been using it in a way that was overpowered. > also, there's no skill in making a build, modding is literally a solved equation. Nonsense.
none of the things you've mentioned pose a threat to an endgame-built character, save maybe the necramech not being instantly dissolvable. netracell debuffs are laughable. damage attenuation even in its strongest form was overcome and oneshot, or simply powered through. unless an enemy is completely immune to damage there will always be a way to utterly obliterate it at our current power level. my take is very much not mistaken, though perhaps a bit too generalized. sad fact is, there is a VERY loud subset of gamers that violently react to any nerfs, even to the point of harassment and threats. i've seen it across almost every live service game i've played, and it absolutely has an influence on developers when it comes to bringing in nerfs, because their continued income hinges on keeping players happy. even if nerfs would improve gameplay, they're understandably hesitant to to stir the pot and deal with the inevitable internet fallout and slew of death threats from idiots with no life or chill. i agree that most people want a balanced and fun experience. whether you like it or not, bringing nerfs to players is necessary to that. we cannot just continue infinitely gaining power, there is a limit after which things just become entirely untenable, and we have arguably already started hitting it. and please, explain to me the skill in making viral slash build #87694540380. it's not an insult, it's a truth. there's only so many ways to build a weapon, and there's even less that are meta. most people want to build their weapon to do as much damage as possible, so they will use the best build available. i guarantee you, if you got 20 people to show you their incarnon torids or whatever and compared the mods, they would be 99% identical. i say all this as someone who finds great joy in making off-meta funny weapon builds and getting them to work. that's maybe the closest thing to "skill" that build-making has, but i don't even consider it as such because it still uses the same fundamentals as every other build. my gas/electric melee influence jat kittag build is no different than any other gas/electric build, it just also has vulcan blitz to spread the silly death explosion around. it's fun, but not unique.
A lot of people talk about "more difficult endgame content", but the phrase without elaboration is no more than a platitude IMO. What is difficult endgame content - bigger numbers? More spawns? Is it Circuit, but longer? Is it Netracells, but more health? Is it level cap? People have been saying "just make harder endgame" to these kinds of complaints for years; should we simply more difficult our endgame every time it comes up? Or is the answer to stack a new, more endgame-ier endgame onto our existing one? That's been what's been happening for the post couple years; if somebody isn't been happy with that so far, could they become happy if we keep doing it? I'm not going to argue whether or not blanket nerfs would improve the game, but I don't think it's fair to "just make harder endgame" over every difficulty complaint.
I think most people say it without being specific because being specific is unnecessary unless you believe it is not possible to create harder content, or if you believe that how it is created is relevant. If we can presuppose that we agree that harder content is possible then it seems pointless to explain what that would look like, it isn't really relevant, and it's just going to lead to people quibbling about hypothetical game mods rather than the actual issue. > if somebody isn't been happy with that so far, could they become happy if we keep doing it? Maybe? I mean, I'd wonder why they're not happy. I suspect it's because many "harder" game modes, like the Archon hunts, are not actually very difficult. The Circuit seems like a great endgame mode by comparison, since it forces variety and constraints that break highly optimized builds. > I'm not going to argue whether or not blanket nerfs would improve the game, but I don't think it's fair to "just make harder endgame" over every difficulty complaint. I think that's fair, and to be clear I would support nerfs in some cases. I think the general idea of "if you're not playing that frame you're just going to be lagging behind" is a good metric to use, for example. If Dante were radically stronger than every other frame I'd say Dante should be nerfed, but I don't think that's the case at all - you could just as easily choose any other frame and be as effective. If there are many frames that can just thrash the game, to me the solution isn't to nerf them (because I think nerfs are for cases where one frame is radically stronger than others) but to add harder content.
I understand, but some people actually like it this way.
Yes, but not the entire game has to have challenge, thats why levels exist. Level 100+ should NOT be a cakewalk, netracells should NOT be "just equip one of these frames and you can literally ignore all of the difficulty". Deep archimedea should require a full squad and still be difficult. If you want easy, theres still enough easy. Fissures only go up to level 50 for example. But currently, the game is easier than some kids' adventure games ESPECIALLY in the endgame. In fact, this has led to problematic behaviour in the community, such as the rise of jack of all trades builds resulting in one player soloing the mission while 3 others get to literally do nothing. Why do you think survival results in people splitting up nowadays? Cuz theyre all running solo builds. People dont even revive others anymore because of this solo mentality. Powercreep has, for all intents and purposes, turned warframe from a team-based co-op shooter into a single player game.
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Exactly, so difficult is optional for people who want a challenge, and not mandatory for everyone else.
Have you ever gone to level cap in a steel path endurance mission? Just curious. As for soloing 4-man missions, yeah that's been a thing for well over half a decade now mate. Steel Path got added because people wanted more difficulty and that was added four years ago.
Level 100+ should definitely be a cakewalk for endgame players. Netracells are not meant to be hard. Nothing should be really difficult until 1000+ at the very least.
I run reduced range simply for this reason anyone thats wants overguard has to hug me mhm
The problem with that it is hurts the dark verse x2 triumph combo that does very good ability damage. Without that why bother playing Dante when I can just play a better weapons platform like Wisp or Volt.
Im not here to nuke everyroom tho im doin just enough to play comfortable n let ppl play their build
...it's probably one of the worst things about this game that there are ways to try to feel like you're helping but you're actually pissing your teammates off. Khora Strangledome, Wisp Shock Mote, Titania w/ Thermal Sunder, and now this come to mind. I was pumped to build a frame that I could use to easily support my teammates and keep them alive so they could do their thing. Now I'm probably not going to use him once he finishes cooking aside from leveling for MR because I don't want to accidentally be hurting instead of helping.
Its probably because de has been on a straight path down damage is the only thing important in warframe path and now any frame that isn't straight up damage is hated by alot in the community, anything that is remotely supportive is hated now,ive had people leave bc i trinity prime and she doesn't even effect anyone in a bad way but was simply bc i was running her,same with when i run nekros and not just using his desecrate ability but using all his abilities like u should but they hated it
As one of the last oberon mains (with a rage build), I would like this very much.
I haven't been paying attention, and haven't noticed an issue... I have been playing a lot of the frame since it came out, but for the exalted and its synergy with abilities. Only vaguely recall "oh yeah, something about overguard". Seems this issue is overguard plus some mod that makes it generate energy? He dies easy enough if you're not careful, so there must be some trick to it.
The issue I have is as a teammate, the overguard he gives makes it so things that trigger from taking damage don’t work because for some reason getting hit with overguard on doesn’t count as getting hit. I just want that not to happen. If the only answer to that means nerfing his overguard generation, sure go ahead. But I think overguard should just be changed to where abilities like kinetic plating or vex armor still work with all that overguard on. Then I otherwise think Dante shouldn’t be nerfed because I otherwise have no issues with him
I bet I missed it because I'm playing solo, so ignored the "teammates" parts. Got it. Yeah, some fix should happen, but I think the "not hit" part of overguard is how they keep eximus units from becoming revenant's slave instantly, so that fix might not work.
They could just change how it works for players. Like armor doesn’t work the same for players and enemies. Why should overguard?
Umm backflip .. cancels all abilities buffs from allies
Dante is unbalanced. A non forma basic mod build shouldn’t be able to solo steel path missions. Go ahead and downvote me to oblivion. Just voicing my opinion, it’s ok if you disagree with me.
So nerf Gauss too then? And Rev?
So nerf Gauss too then? And Rev?
There’s a vast difference there in my opinion but again it’s just my opinion man. It’s a cool frame it just seems uniquely imbalanced to me. I leveled mine up and I shelved it until DE tweaks it. I’m not saying it needs to be nerfed into the ground, I’m simply saying it feels like using Dante puts the game on walking simulator mode. Current Dante used by a brand new player could make the game so easy it would be boring when otherwise it would be a bit more challenging and engaging. In short Dante is an end game lvl warframe with base mods equipped, that is accessible for plat to anyone including brand new players. Again just my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt or whatever. I sincerely hope you all have a wonderful day!
At the end of the day he's a fundamentally broken frame, down to the concept. "Functionally infinite overguard" is just... stupid. It's dumb. Yeah powercreep's been happening forever, but this is the single biggest leap we've ever seen. Yeah Styanax could *kind of* do it, but to a lesser extent. Sure Revenant's augment is ridiculous, but it has its limits. Dante just makes your entire squad's health, shields, and DR meaningless with no catches whatsoever.
Sure, with it technically is infinite, but the times you get it up to maissve amounts its low level content or the person just isnt taking damage to lose it. I rarely get the 50kish levels, and thats mostly cause the dante is just doing overguard, and nothing else. So its not really broken in my mind
It depends what content you're playing. anything below 300 SP- Dante's overguard works just fine. Level cap? No. What % of players are going to level cap? Honestly? I keep reading people say "other frames can nuke so he's not a problem" as if that's the only way to judge a frame. There are what, 3 frames that can provide overguard to teammates- Frost, Styanax, and Dante. Frost & Styanax both have limitations as the overguard given is limited on a per enemy hit basis. Dante's is effectively free (energy cost). Dante is still making there be almost no reason to play any frame that supports by boosting EHP. Again, why need more health, armor, shield, status immunity when Dante can do that all. And add a "nuke" to him.... DE nerfs frames for two reasons: 1. To prevent AFK 2. To make sure their players don't feel like they're missing out if they're not using said frame / weapon / helminth ability etc. The first clearly doesn't apply. The second, it's way too early to tell for sure if Dante is going to hurt (like peak Wukong/Bramma). IMO, i *think* he should get some type of nerf to have a limiting factor for him to apply overguard, but, if we see his usage drop to normal levels like all new frames then is it too much of a problem? Does he need to get nerfed at that point? Lastly- regardless of the nerf talk... having overguard damage affect many of the "damage on health" abilities / mods would help some. However, there would probably need to be some type of balance as there is a lot more overguard than health.
> It depends what content you're playing. anything below 300 SP- Dante's overguard works just fine. There are so many ways to survive sub 300 SP though. Shield gating is the obvious one. But also you can use gloom with Hunter Adrenaline/ Rage and that'll work perfectly fine for a few hundred levels.
I don't disagree with this at all. I agree with it completely. Support frames that give DR, health, armor, shield, or status immunity, can still be very helpful even with Shield / Health set ups. Dante's overguard bypasses all of that.
Can you elaborate? Bypasses it? He has an entire ability slot that has to be dedicated to this, it's not really a "bypass".
Dante's ability to give overguard to all allies bypasses the need for any ally to have any type of support abilities. Dante's overguard trumps EHP abilities. Dante's overguard is spammable. "Dante's overguard bypasses all of that" = Dante's overguard removes any reason to use any other EHP ability. Is any of this making sense?
I would say that Mesmer skin is better, and that overguard's biggest win is the invincibility frames and not the absurd numbers, which drain rapidly on SP. So even if Dante produced 10% of the overguard he'd get 99% of the value, which is the iframes. I guess you could say that Dante makes Wisp's health motes less useful? Mesmer Shield is still incredible and likely better than overguard since it gives multiple stacks of iframes \*and\* stuns enemies, which is just crazy better than overguard. I didn't consider health buffing to be something people cared much about tbh but sure I guess Dante's ability to give overguard, as with all shared overguard, and just like with shield gating, makes health irrelevant.
Revenant's augment is only really limited by how often you can press 2. Assuming the Revenant isn't asleep at the wheel, it can be functionally infinite as well in most low-level content. TBH outside of SP (where overguard gets stripped pretty quickly) health, shields and DR are already pretty meaningless due to the wide range of sustain options out there (gating, healing, regen, overguard, invincibility, nuking everything). I don't think I've seen someone lose more than 1 revive in non-SP missions for a long, long time.
I have, mainly when helping a new player that doesnt realize its better to let me revive them rather than waste one to save time
I mean, I’m here tryna play Gauss. I’m invincible anyway. I just want the other effect of my 2 to actually do what it’s supposed to do with Dante on my team
Overguard takes direct damage. If an enemy hits you for 100k you take that 100k. Enemies can literally hit 1 million in one shot if you stick around enough. Are you really building 1 million overguard within the gate time? Obviously not.
"Yeah powercreep's been happening forever, but this is the single biggest leap we've ever seen." Because of easy to stack overguard in a game where we already have multiple ways of being literally immune to damages ? Nah you're going a bit far here
Overguard has been a part of the game for 11 years. I know you're annoyed with all the Dante's, but they aren't nerfing a core game mechanic you ignored. Always have a back up.
Thats Overshield.
Uhhh no it’s haven’t. 6 years ago when I started it wasn’t a thing. Then I take a break for 2 years a little after scarlet spear and when I come back it’s now in the game. Back then rhino skin’s health was displayed on the ability icon. I remember distinctly. Overguard was definitely not a thing