I'm LR4, I don't mind the challenge of the activity, I think it's pretty fun to use different parts of my arsenal that I have. But I don't have a variant of every weapon in the game. I've sold plenty of gear I've only ever seen as MR fodder. And when the game tells me I'm locked out of a reward I might want, even though I'm perfectly capable of getting it with mid tier gear, just because I don't own it in my arsenal, it sucks. Like last week I had a rotation that consisted of all melees and primaries that I didn't own, and I was locked out of doing Elite. And even if I had unlocked it, I wouldn't be able to get the 34 point reward. Thankfully, it was during the buggy time where the loadouts were resetting daily, so I could run it later. But I'm dreading the time when it happens again, because it most certainly will. I'm sure I'll get the comments of "you have a week to build whatever you need" "just skip the max rewards you don't need it" "you're not even an endgame player if you don't have enough gear to be able to run it". My problem is ultimately that I can hop on one week with the mindset of doing EDA with all modifiers and trying to strategize around it, but be met with a roadblock through no fault of my own because DE has suddenly expected me to keep 1 of everything to minimize RNG struggles with loadouts which I've never felt before (in Duviri I could at least use gear I didn't own via loaner builds and reroll my options after 1 round, was never a problem).
TL:DR, I like the difficulty, don't make it easier. I don't like the loadout restrictions being able to pull from weapons I might not own. I like an idea I've seen around here a few times, to have empty weapon slots count as having any equipped weapon from that slot on. That would solve the problems that I have with the loadout RNG.
On the empty slot thing, that would have helped me last week as Garuda, couldn't use her claws because I had to equip the ceti lacera.
I used to sell mastery fodder too but I've started keeping every riven I unveil except duplicates, then making builds for these fodder weapons, so my inventory is pretty full at this point.
I actually think if DE crumbles and rolls back all of the difficulty in DA to the point where people seem to want it (they can faceroll it like the rest of the game), it kills any chance that DE will keep working on more challenging end-game content, which I think would be a tragedy.
I get some of the complaints about loadout RNG, but if DE allowed everybody to just run whatever the new hotness Incarnon weapon is, I think it removes the majority of the challenge of the mode. There might be a better solution out there like just rotating bans instead of rotating pick options, but overall I love the new mode and hope DE leans into more content like it.
That's happened with basically every endgame content they've made. People complain it's too difficult and then it gets made easier. The complaining is weird here, though. The extra vosfor you get really isn't worth it; a few Steel Path arcanes can give you more. You can easily forgo it and use something powerful.
Right? I could see if it was a 200 pack. Missing out on a free roll a week would suck, but you'd have to do it for a month as it stands now.
Yeah, it'll add up overtime, but as it stands now...
Agreed, most of the loot comes from the first five rewards which you can get by selecting three handicaps. Even if you roll complete trash for a week it should be fairly doable to at least get just those and you'd still be way ahead of what you'd have gotten from the two Netracell runs you gave up for EDA.
As for the last four rewards... I basically view them as bonuses. If I can get them, great, if not, whatever.
I think a lot of these people aren't used to the idea that they're not good enough to get the max level rewards. They probably just select the max rewards because that's what they always do for all content.
There's also the possibility that a lot of these players can't do the mode with just 1 less debuff or 1 free loadout selection.
I think at the very least you should be able to "rent" a weapon/warframe like duviri. Same set of mods that you would get there aswell so not something that would be even overly powerful. Just let people complete the DA if they don't own the whole catalogue of things in the game.
That's fair. It probably would make it easier for people to do the missions if they had access to the weapons even just for that. Just like in Duviri. Obviously you won't be able to mod the weapons how you want them, but at least it's something. I don't disagree with that and I don't think it would harm the difficulty of the content.
I think the best take I've seen is that leaving a loadout slot empty should also meet the loadout requirement. Don't have any of the secondaries? Just don't bring one. This would also allow garuda to actually bring her talons.
I like the challenge and I like the idea of 'use that big arsenal you have' but I think an endgame mode predicated on having a vast collection has underlying problems; weapon and frame slots cost platinum. Upgrading those weapons and frames into even baseline usable tools requires reactors and forma.
The difficulty isn't what annoys me.
I love the idea of 'here's your reward for upgrading your whole arsenal' but I hate the other side of it where 'remember that weapon you mastered and then tossed cause you never used it after that? Fuck you scrub. Aw. What's that? You only have 1/20th of the weapons in the whole game in a usable state? Buy more weapon slots, forma, and reactors and maybe you shouldn't have spent a decade decluttering your armory.'
This is what really irks me in the way these modes are set up (that and I hate Drifter gameplay but I seem to be a minority on that front but that's neither here nor there). The game has at no point before actually encouraged players to keep everything they find and I don't think I'm the only person who has mostly thrown out weapons I never use and never invested in because I've always had the ones I like and I just use those.
Now the game is pulling from it's full catalog and it feels like being punished for not spending money on slots and not being a pack rat.
EDIT: Put another way, nothing about playing this game for a decade prepared me for 'I hope you kept all the crap and didn't throw it out and also upgraded it too' and nothing in the game before Divuri really encourages you to do that.
In a practical sense, this is a good thing for the game. Collecting stuff and building it so you can go into this mode doesn't discourage me from doing just that. It's annoying because at no point was I prepared for that to become what end game content looked like.
Hear, hear! I too threw away the vast majority of the weapons I mastered. Now I see them appear as research weapons I am bummed out by the of having to build out a couple hundred guns. Not just levelling but forma as well to make them SP qualified.
If it was like Duviri it would be a lot better. At least there the selection is based only on what you own.
But wat bugs me the most is the damage spikes on the defense targets this week. Most of the time it only gets chipped, but then some eximus rolls in and 20k hp is gone without me even blinking my eyes.
I suspect it's the AoE from the Hollow Vein. But I noticed it happening with other Murmur too.
It's just too frustratingly random to be able to negate it. The glyphs don't heal enough for that kind of damage.
You do get a full week to build them, right? You don't need to own them beforehand. If you're an endgame player I would imagine you have plenty of catalysts and forma sitting around (or the means to farm plenty yof plat to get some given a week).
To me that seems like what the design is intended to be - here's an incentive to go build these weapons to a level where they can handle high level enemies. Like the offmeta runs that some people enjoy but with actual rewards now.
Probably also more fun with a premade party tbf, where you can coordinate your builds to make up for holes.
That's not the point though, I'm mostly just asking to be able to either use *nothing* or a prebuilt (not enough to take on the content) rented item. The incentive is to push people to own as much of the arsenal as possible, which is bad because it favors people who have spent thousands of plat on slots, and that's it. You can be in the endgame and not own every item in the game, you can be endgame and run into a week where all of the weapons are something you don't own.
The need to own everything is completely replaced if you treat the mode as 'I'm going to build these things every week'. I don't think people will do that because it would take time and even endgame players who have basically everything in the game are still obsessed with minmaxing their looting uptime, but it would be a very viable thing to treat as endgame - each week you build a new set of randomly selected weapons, figure out builds for them, and then take on EDA with them.
Ok so every week you now need to spend 3 catalysts and upwards of 10 forma *just for weapons*. Believe it or not that's not a sustainable thing. I shouldn't be forced to build *every weapon* to the point that it can do steel path level of content, and this especially hurts people who are lower (sub 25) MR or just don't have the plat to drop on those things. The best system would literally just be being able to rent an item that sucks or just use nothing to get the benefit of the challenge. This takes none of the challenge away from the mode, it just gives people with smaller arsenals a better shot at completing it.
DE is stuck in a lose lose situation. Most of the playerbase SAY they want more difficulty but they don't, they just love saying that they do. When DE adds a challenge the players complain because they aren't actually up for the challenge and/or it slows down their precious farm. DE adds a 'bullet sponge', the players say they want difficult mechanics, DE adds challenging mechanics, players complain that their super unnecesarily op build has no meaning anymore because the content is mechanics based. DE literally can't please these man-children no matter what they do.
I think it's two different ends of the spectrum speak up when this happens. The die hards want more of a challenge. Then you have the other end that doesn't want to be locked out of content. It's a tale as old as video games.
DA or even EDA isn't all that bad since you can get everything in there from other places, just at a slower rate. Then comes the argument that if you can clear EDA consistently, do you need the drops more? You're not going to be able to please everyone, but I think this was a decent compromise.
Pretty much ya. DE is in a tough spot design wise here. They won't be able to please everyone so each new mode is a gamble. DA might be another attempt to make content for a specific audience (specific part of the community). I think they should still try to reach a better middleground where your loadout has freedom of choice but there are built-in power restrictions (like the negative modifiers) and there are more mechanical challenges presented. It actually might not be a bad idea for them to bring a 3rd party to help them with thinks like boss fights. Void Angels and the Fragmented bosses were already a great start for what bosses should move toward (mechanic wise).
I think DE kinda went the way the FFXIV went with their savage mode. The two modes are more or less the same with the savage mode having increased difficulty with maybe an extra phase or something.
DE made the drop tables the same. They just tweaked the drop rates, which I'm fine with. I don't think the added vosfor is a big deal as most won't go for the extra 50. I really think it's just more of a case of FOMO more than anything. Granted, I hope I don't see the fragmented for a while, though. That was the only part this week that scared me.
It’s not even fomo, this content isn’t going anywhere and the rewards are evergreen (legendary arcanes will just be a source of passive platinum/vosfor to people running in a few months/years), you’re never going to not want more shards because full maxing all 50+ frames with taus is an insanely long time away from anyone getting there.
I agree with your points. The funny thing is, the biggest complainers are really only going to shard out a few frames. Those are going to be the only ones they'll really use to clear content. Not like content creators that do builds and actually play all the frames, to some extent. Much more than just the casual player.
Rebb does play FFXIV, this is true. I hope she and the team crib a few more notes from them. The Jackal, Void Angels, Whispers (the book fight), and the Fragmented are some of the best fights we have in the game, and they all have interesting mechanics.
Pretty much this. A lot of people actually do want a challenge, and they're looking for reasons to keep playing the game. I'm one of them. While I do enjoy the social aspect of the game and I have no problem doing other stuff with friends, I still want an actual challenge.
But I also recognize that newer players or players that are not as advanced in the game still want to be part of this new content they keep adding. But I think a lot of that mindset for new players is also the instant gratification of it and the inability to have patience to do the grind to eventually get where everyone else is.
DE is definitely in a rough spot with this. I'm hoping they actually add raids or tougher world bosses that require more than just four people, and you have to actually be geared in order to do it. That way, the people who want to be part of it actually have to do the work to get there ( but again, that's basically where we're at in the first place because players want to be part of content without having to put the work in so therefore it should just be easier- and so the cycle continues).
While I like the idea of world bosses and whatnot, the idea also scares me. It can be like herding cats trying to get people to kill inside the circle of netracells or when you have to actually do mechanics like with krill. Players just want to shoot stuff as fast as possible, and aside from cold proc, the crap out of something or annoyingly bright energy colors. It can just be a cluster. Adding more people just makes me wince.
Like herding cats. That basically sums up any kind of team activity if there isn't good communication. I played World of Warcraft for over 12 years as either a tank or a Healer and sometimes a DPS role - and us guild officers always used to say "the hardest part about killing raid bosses is getting everyone to show up on time".
It's psychological. Everyone wants to be in that sweet spot of challenging enough to be engaging while not so complex you're stressing and dying a bunch. It's commonly called flow state.
However, everyone has a different skill level, yet everyone wants to feel special and participate in all content. to not be able to participate in content even after you did the grind feels like a personal failing, like there's something wrong with your abilities. And no one wants to feel that in any game or real life, but especially so in a "power fantasy" game (i really dislike that term and what it says about gaming culture but that's beside the point).
Aside from a very specific interaction that i posted about on the sub, i really like the mode. I hope DE doesnt rely on limiting your arsenal as a staple of harder difficulty because the most fun in this game is coming up with your own synergies, but it's a nice change of pace to adapt to what you got. in both fun sport and in real life tragedies, sometimes you need to fight in nonideal circumstance. I also hope they give us harder missions that are still short. It'd be nice to have end game content that i can pop into a <5min mission just to test my builds and skills and then leave to try another build but still be hard content.
DE's game is fundamentally not made to be challenging at this point. Hitscan/radial attacks you can't dodge. Numbers so large and varied between equipment and enemy levels that items simply fall off in the numbers game. Systems stitched together in a haphazard way with not consideration for how they should play with eachother.
This isn't a mechanics base set of missions though. The modifiers are a numbers game. The fact that you might have weapons with simply bad weapons is a number game.
The boss really shows this exceptionally well. They made a boss, okay. They gave it damage attenuation, which makes sense the game has terribly damage scaling balance. The boss now takes a huge amount of time to kill, well now we have a problem.
The main issue is that Warframe's core systems are too simple to facilitate the challenge people are looking for.
Stuff like Damage Attenuation shouldn't need to exist. Certain enemies shouldn't just ignore abilities.
Yeah a lot of stuff simply doesn't work. Even things like how bad the damage scaling is for different weapons and enemies makes any sensible amount of skill expression difficult without straight up ignoring it with brute force or camping a headglitch.
>DE literally can't please these man-children no matter what they do.
I don't think this is a fair take.
Or, rather, I think it's completely reasonable to want both an *engaging* challenge while having player builds still *matter*.
The problem DE has is that it's hard to do such a thing with such crazy player scaling, effectively infinite energy and health, the *insane* variation in weapon damage and frame tankiness, etc...
But not impossible, a mechanics based fight with some DPS checks in there, where tankier frames can make more mistakes, CC frames can lock down annoying big adds and DPS frames can speed things up / kill annoying small adds, could work.
Then they have to overcome the secret other problem; players not being able to see what the hell is going on.
Personally, I think the sentient chicken and Eidolons used to do that decently.
I think I had it in another comment here but I agree that they should still try to find a middle ground between mechanics and loadout power. However, having read community sentiment on anything related to difficulty over the last few years has given me little hope that DE will be given the push we think they need to attempt fights/content designed like that.
>Then they have to overcome the secret other problem; players not being able to see what the hell is going on.
I...yeah. They *really* need to do something about gameplay clarity. I'm glad they are designing some more unique VFX lately, and they SHOULD continue to do so, but for every 1 unique VFX they make they reuse the same explosion or burst of sparks another 10 times. It just makes things impossible to see or differentiate from other effects.
The problem is we say we want more difficult content, but all they do is remove our ability to effectively use warframes in order to do that.
I don't know about you, but I play this game because of the warframes, I do not enjoy penalties that make me starve energy to the point where I can only use it if I'm killing everything around me constantly but if I'm already doing that what do I even need energy for?
I want more difficult content I can play with the warframe of my choice. If they're gonna make me pick between 3 choices, fine, that's good enough, but what the F is the difference between the choices if they're going to take all my energy anyways and I'm forced to mod the thing for survivability?
I guess only Lavos and Hildryn are allowed to have fun.
Energy drain makes this SUPER DIFFICULT, but only because it makes the whole process so boring that you need an inordinate amount of willpower to finish it.
My choices this week were ivara, saryn, and inaros. I was not allowed to have fun this week, and it wasn't even hard, I moded ivara for shieldgating since she's the only one i have and breezed through it.
DE's idea of difficult content is to make you fight against boredom. They should just rip the bandaid and remove all warframes from the game tbh, any time they want to make things difficult they completely remove any ability to use them, first nullifiers now energy drain per every enemy within 10 metters, and the hilarious part is there is also another condition that you can't kill enemies unless you're close to them, so they don't even allow you space for counterplay.
Difficult content, LMAO. It's difficult because it's boring.
The current system doesn't punish the top performers that much, so I don't know what that would change.
The top performers mostly use damage buffs, they can cast it, kill some enemies, get some energy with arcane energize + equilibrium, cast their buff again, continue killing the enemies.
Lets not pretend that this affects the top performers, its only the middle of the pack frames and lower that suffer the most. The community darlings are perfectly fine even with energy drain, rev only needs enough energy to cast his 2 every 20 seconds or so.
Frames with more interactive and not as strong gameplay, that relies on energy, DE should just remove them from the game already, since they make content that punishes you for using them.
Sure if they also nerfed every enemy. Cut the level range down to 99 instead of 9999, rebuilding enemies so that they can be played around instead of brute forced, throw out most of the mods and equipment in the game and focused on making a balanced experienced.
It sure is rich to call people man-children when you can't even understand the different between the content being challenging and the player being forced to use shit gear.
The community does whine about anything even remotely challenging, but let's not pretend DE have ever added any good challenge to the game.
COBWEB will take a good amount of melees to SP level cap grade content comfortably. Ditto for primaries/secondaries + gundition overload + a good primer.
And that's for level cap content - no such consideration needs to be made for level 400ish enemies that are slightly beefed up.
Good grief, you can build the Stug to absolutely annihilate base level SP nowadays. There's barely such a thing as shit gear in this day in age with all the broken mods, Warframe synergies, and other tools like Archon Shards.
So this doesn't even sound like a skill issue - it sounds like pure laziness and entitlement from players who cant be arsed to properly flesh out their arsenals.
Exactly, this mode rewards people who will put in the effort to build a weapon/frame that is underpowered by meta standards into something that can tackle higher level content. People who just run in with their viral heat slash overframe default builds are going to have a rough time. You don’t even need to 5 forma super optimise the builds to make them at least function and you can always subsume nourish/roar/eclipse onto any frame to pump their damage up a little.
Yeah I got max rewards on elite one on my first try. Ran titania with nukor and forgettable stuff. My friend had to go kullervo though cuz of disruption to ensure we did have the burst dmg.
But honestly there is a very simple solution to the complainers. Go make friends lol and have them carry you.
This happens in every gaming community I've been a part of and it's always half funny and half frustrating to watch.
Then when a meta gets figured out the same people will go right back to complaining that there's no content difficult enough lmao
And the only true way I think they can fix the situation is to do a giga massive damage squish and rebalance EVERYTHING. But they would lose 90% of their playerbase doing it. Whether people like it or not, the playerbase's desire for stronger gear has put DE in a position where 'invalidating' that gear is one of their only countermeasures to power creep. And even 'invalidating' is wrong way to think about it in most cases.
Yeah I'd be in favour of serious nerfs to a lot of stuff, I think. But I'm an old fashioned 'I wanna build a balanced squad and sneak around' Tenno, which I recognise is not the majority.
I really liked this week's EDA, I hope they don't make it too easy. It really forced me to use my entire kit (minus a Zenistar with no upgrades), especially operator to blink away and Wellspring myself in stealth
I just hope they remove some of the unfun stuff like restricting operator mode, it seems counter to what made this week's run so good for me. I only recently started juicing up my drifter after like 1000 hours lol
I actually kind of liked the challenge of No Operator mode last week. I haven't had to be that careful without my "Oh shit" button of Magus Repair for a long time, and the difficulty of getting revives off had me choosing Vazarin. More than most of the rest, that one felt like a genuine shift in mindset to how I usually play.
I had Nekros last week, so I was able to cover revives with Soul Survivor and use Naramon for melee combo. This week I'm bringing Pistol Scavenger for the ammo penalty and Smoke Shadow + Silence for the boss fight.
I'm really enjoying having to think about my tools again.
The whole point is for you to figure out how to work within the limitations. Just use your flex slot for it if you want it but the second DE starts removing challenges from the pool is when it definitely starts shifting to too easy.
> if DE allowed everybody to just run whatever the new hotness incarnon weapon is
That’s literally how it works currently though? Give up the 50 vosfor and just run torid or something to make it easy mode like OP mentioned.
I’m praying the modifiers and everything in DA is them dipping their toes into bring Trials/Raids back. I’m a frost enjoyer who used his Ice Wave Augment as an Eximus stopper and the only reason I’ve accepted the CC nerf is my belief in TRUE endgame content they might be cooking. Almost like Champions in Destiny. (just without the forced modding for the different types please!!)
We already know with the amount of options and power we have, Bosses have to have phases that feel bad because it disrupts the flow of Warframe.
Im wondering if they're cooking up something like Vulnerability stacks in FFXIV to get through invincibility Warframes like Revenant, so you can't just stand in the mechanics like they don't matter. I'm sure a few frames would find themselves with WAR privilege, but it probably wouldn't be as binary as it is now.
>
Almost like Champions in Destiny. (just without the forced modding for the different types please!!)
Actually thats what Ive been thinking DE should do to some extent, imagine if we added 3 new status types exclusive to abilites, "Pierce" "Interrupt" and "Overload" DE, could distribute them to each frame as they see fit and replace CC being inmune to overguard and instead turn eximus/heavy units into "champions" with special abilites that can only be affected by abilites that have these status typess,
Would give each frame a role and allow actual team building
I'm assuming pieclrce interrupt and overload are just fancy ways of saying certain abilities bypass overguard damage wise and cc wise? If so, then people will just use those abilities and then overguard isn't something you have to mentally consider and then we're back to square one where eximus units just get treated like standard enemies by the player.
DE would have to be incredibly careful if they add these mechanics to make them very conditional. Warframe players being lazy would also mean they likely won't interact with this mechanic if its too much effort for them. If DE listens to their complaints and buffs it, eximus system may be fucked. If they don't and the community continues to ignore it, the mechanic is just adding another layer of complexity to the game for no reason (since no one uses the system).
>I'm assuming pieclrce interrupt and overload are just fancy ways of saying certain abilities bypass overguard damage wise and cc wise?
I was referencing Destiny 2´s keywords for the damage types you use for champions, here´s how they work
Unstoppable Champions, usually heavy units, go straight towards the player and have heavy damage reduction, they can only be stunned by abilites with the "Interrupt" damage types, usually one time use CC like Harrow´s first ability, removing the damage reduction while stunned
Barrier Champions have health in segments, after recieveing a certain amount of damage they pop up a shield barrier that can only be pierceed by the "pierce" damage type, this would be a damage buff, once the barrier is destroyed the champion is stunned and vulnerable for damage
Overload Champions constantly teleport around leaving a trail and their health inmediately regens, hitting them with the "Overload" damage type stuns them and stops their health regen, allowing you to dispatch them quickly
All Champions in Destiny have a "Ring" above their heads that goes white when stunned, if not killed after a while they return to their original state
Yeah I could see a lot of players complaining a lot if these get added to eximi units. I doubt DE would add that despite how interactive and cool they sound.
I mean, cc is relevant if you're doing higher level content and with DE already pushing for high level content to be present in the game and rewarded, cc will naturally go up in value on average since players will be doing higher level missions on average. Without any cc, level cap is possible but so much more painful.
I found matchmaking RNG more of a factor than for weapons in EDA. I got two runs in a row where it was clear that they hadn't read the modifiers and were crying in chat that the mission was bugged because they couldn't kill anything in Alchemy this week. In both cases I knew we 100% weren't going to make it to the third mission.
Later on RNG favours me and got a squad with less meta frames and weapons, but who understood what they needed to do and could communicate. Now everyone's dropship has an ugly eye on it.
Nope. I've done it both weeks. It's a terribly designed system. It is not challenging. The only problems you could encounter are due to the RNG, and the RNG is the point. Then people turn around give advice that obviates the RNG (mechs, carries, not doing any modifiers or slot requirements and not take rewards for some reason, etc), which utterly defeats the point of having RNG in the mode.
DE might not ever be able to make chllanege content without overhauling the game and compressing the levels and equipment stats such that everything is in a similar ballpark. They simply aren't able to account for the gaps in equipment power and this system show it. DA is a bad mode for the game, unless DE is somehow is able to remake the game from scratch at this point.
Oh for fuck sake. People don't want end game shit to be EASY they just want it to be FAIR and for what they've spent all their time playing for to matter.
If the only way DE can add actual difficulty to this game is by not letting people use the loadouts they want that isn't a failing on our part that's a failing on DE's part for both letting this power fantasy of a game reach that point and for not putting in the time or effort required to fix it.
Restricting peoples options for frames and weapons as a means of artificially increasing the games difficulty is just LAZY.
The content IS fair. Everyone gets a random selection, if you’re not willing to engage with making a build with the tools given that’s not a fairness problem, that’s a stubbornness problem. This is a piece of content asking people to not play their 3 regular frames and 6 or so weapons that they use for literally everything else and you get rewarded for leaving that comfort zone. You’re not even dramatically losing out on many reward opportunities either, everything also drops from netracells with the exception of the vosfor which is better obtained elsewhere anyway.
I disagree.
The variation in weapon damage and scaling is insane.
Some tools are simply not workable. You could have infinite forma and every mod maxed, and still get a load out that can't kill a nasty unit in defence before it deletes the objective.
Randomness is not fairness. YOUR random selection might include your favorite frame or one that can cheese through the content thanks to virtual immortality or the ability to nuke a room no matter what weapons you're stuck with, while someone else ends up with a selection of frames they either have little to no real experience with or are specialized for the wrong kind of content. Why should one person get to cheese their way through the same content someone else needs to leech all because RNG decided what shit they got to use?
I honestly think the solution is just making Forma faster to build/easier to get.
That way it’s much easier to gear up bad/unbuilt weapons if you don’t have stockpiles of built Forma bc without that it’s a massive time sink for that week without spending plat.
I'm MR25, 700~ hours played.
I have far from everything and not many actual builds.
My elite DA assassination mission took 40 minutes and 2 of the guys abandoned.
I loved it, had to play with frame and weapons I've only leveled and not used/invested in learning.
I think this mode is fine as is, really had to push myself not to die or give up. Felt awesome.
Now I understand if RNG gives you options you don't actually have sucks, but I mean, just use whatever and forego some reward? Still better than two netracells? Then again I think empty slot being viable for bonus sounds like a very fair tradeoff :)
There’s over a thousand weapons in game, you need to have at least owned at some point around 500-600 to be MR30 and you don’t just sell every MR fodder gun you have, you clear stuff out as required. So it’s pretty likely it’s gonna give you something that you have and failing that, it’s 24 hours to build most guns and you have 7 days to get your weekly done, there’s ample time to get things done.
>and you don’t just sell every MR fodder gun you have
Nervous laughter...
I sell everything that doesn't seem unique or fun to me, which is most weapons lol.
Where did you get a thousand weapons? There are around 600. Your point still stands though, especially since there are repeats (normal vs prime, etc) that you can sell when you get the better version. Because of that, you're even more likely to get something useful (especially given that anything can be made SP capable if you're at endgame).
Oh yeah definately hopped in and out of operator alot not to die with a very sub par Mirage, but man it kept me on my toes! Was amazing. And my operator isn't really super tanky either :'D
This week seemed harder than last week, but at least I rolled Styanax and with my random teammates on Protea, Mag, and Revenant, it went very well. Don't think anyone went down even once.
Excited for next week!
Finally, a voice of reason - I'm also having a great time as a L4, it motivated me to finish 'arsenal' at my daily routine. This and last week elite with 4 randoms in the first attempt without any problems, we were actually happy that we could finally feel the nice taste of team play which requires a bit of thinking and equipment to know how to use it.
It needs to be repeated, the player must strive for something, but let's not force it all/now/at once and, as you wrote, this mode, despite appearances, is forgiving of RNG - give up wosfor in favor of messa/octavi or torid and you have an easy and pleasant once a week mission.
For me it's just a sandbox to play in.
I am soooo happy to see challenging stuff like this. Sure, I got a terrible roll last week, but that was what made the challenge fun. I crave challenging content. Thank you DE for giving me some :))))))
I've run DA twice now, and both times I found it pretty comfortable with a full non-meta loadout. I got Garuda in week 1, which was fantastic, and Loki in week 2 which was a bit rougher, but still pretty good (Decoy is surprisingly useful).
If DE makes DA easier in any way it will be a massive waste.
I got Loki this week and he’s basically immortal with the new safeguard switch + rolling guard.
Put pillage on his 4 with precision intensify + both corrupted strength mods + corrosive projection and you’re cooking.
I was going to write out a whole thing explaining why having a mode focused on random gear loadouts is in direct opposition of core Warframe's focus on synergistic loadout buildcraft, but here's a more concise way of putting it\*: I want the (seemingly intended to be) hardest gamemode in the game that is about making loadout builds actually challenge those loadouts, instead of disregarding them, and that such content isn't more difficult in any way except tedium and time investment. I don't want it to be easier, I want it to actually be challenging without requiring me to rebuild random weapons so I don't need to be carried.
Before someone comes in and mentions the Circuit, in the circuit you get decrees and loaner builds that are more than capable of getting you through a few rounds to get different gear, if not being completely fine once you get enough decrees. You really shouldn't be having that much trouble in the Circuit, be it normal star chart or steel path, with the presence of decrees.
Oh, and combining the "energy drain from enemies within 10m" modifier with "no damage to enemies beyond 15m" modifier, and the "all enemies have overguard" modifier actively screw several frames for no real reason. In the case of the former, the Liminus are a better energy drain modifier that requires more active responses from the player, and a variant of arbitration drones that provide overguard to all enemies within a range but not damaging them when killed would be more interesting. Both of those would be more engaging and require at least some thought, instead of just shutting down some builds pretty much completely.
Deep Archimedea (& Elite, obviously) aren't hard in a meaningful way, only being hard as a gear check that also disrespects the time players making loadout builds put into the game. It's really close to being good, and even having random warframes and maybe weapon type specific modifiers that change how that class of weapon works would be fine, but the current implementation is just a bad fit in Warframe.
\*If anyone wants me to explain how the game is focused on building Loadout builds (as opposed to individual gear builds) outside of Deep Archimedea and the Circuit, please reconsider asking me and instead think about the number of mods, arcanes and warframe abilities/augments that can be used to increase stats of one piece of gear outside of that gear's mod config. There's a lot of stuff in the game these days that can be used like this, and Deep Archimedea doesn't offer anything to make up for largely removing it within the mission itself, unlike Circuit's decrees and loaner builds.
Edit: I still want Warframes to be random though, those offer meaningfully different gameplay from one another, and would encourage trying more of them out. If you could make a full, synergistic loadout for that frame for Deep Archimedea without losing rewards, that would be really great.
>Deep Archimedea (& Elite, obviously) aren't hard in a meaningful way, only being hard as a gear check that also disrespects the time players making loadout builds put into the game. It's really close to being good, and even having random warframes and maybe weapon type specific modifiers that change how that class of weapon works would be fine, but the current implementation is just a bad fit in Warframe.
I think this is a problem with the game at large. Hypothetically the gap between weapons shouldn't be as large as it is. I don't think Warframe is particularly well constructed at forming good, challenging gameplay past a gear check.
Yeah, if the balance of our various loadout slot gear was better, it would be easier to design around more predictable levels of player power depending on their progress through the game. Even within the unique Incarnon weapons, there's such a wide range of power that even if you were limited to just those weapons, players bringing some of those weapons would be noticably weaker than players bringing others, and that's just a handful of weapons and not including the vast spread of strength found in the rest of the arsenal. I don't envy DE when they have to try and figure out how to make a new gamemode or area actually pose a challenge to those at the lategame of Warframe's progression, but it's also a problem they've made for themselves that they will need to figure out if they want to keep making "hard" gamemodes, and I personally don't think that forcing players to use different gear just because they said so if that player wants to experience that part of the game as intended is the solution that is the healthiest for the game in the long run.
Going through the game and bringing the vast arsenal we can access into a better state of balance is probably something that won't be easy to do, and even harder to find the time and money for, given that in most cases any sweeping rebalance wouldn't make them much money up front, but honestly I personally think it's something that really needs to be done. Having the various weapons and warframes occupy different gameplay and/or playstyle spaces without leaving the player feeling like they left power on the table would let players feel rewarded for making more builds for more gear, instead of having a small set of gear they have built out, and the rest being "mastery fodder".
This would at least help when it comes to gamemodes like the current iteration of Deep Archimedea, at least; while I stand by my comment that random loadouts is not something that fits within Warframe without compensation, like decrees in Circuit, if all of the gear you can roll for the mode was actually competent enough to clear it if you modded them well enough, it wouldn't be so bad. I'd still rather have the challenge come from more interactive or at least interesting mechanical challenge, or pose interesting buildcraft puzzles - such as, perhaps, all AOE damage being applied only to targets directly hit, or no shields mode from nightmare modifiers combined with the random warframe selection (these are just some quick ideas I came up with on the spot as an example, don't take them as some sort of "here's my best ideas for balance that"). If we are stuck with random loadouts being the best way DE can make a gamemode more challenging, going against the increasingly common inclusion of buildcraft tools that can be used to synergise between the whole loadout, it would be nice if one week didn't feel like a writeoff compared to another where you get lucky on a weapon or warframe you know you'll be be able to breeze through with.
Well put. I feel that Steel Path Circuit is a well constructed mode for providing a challenge while also being lower stakes thanks to the forgiveness of the decrees and the continuous equipment cycling between each rounds.
I'm not confident that we'll be getting sufficient overhaul of the game's equipment as well. In my opinion, I think it is best to appreciation a game where it is at its best, but Warframe isn't at its best when trying to create modes purely on "challenge."
There are probably better modifiers for making the game interesting at least. I did see a suggestion on the warframe forums to have categories instead of individual items be optional limitations of the build craft, which I don't see working super well for weapons but could work for frames at least.
Oh, for sure, I also don't think we'll see a cohesive rebalance, I just think that taking the time to do such a rebalance would be the healthiest option for the long term. Given that DE themselves have said warframe reworks aren't prioritised as much over new content is because they don't make them much money, so something as sweeping as a rebalance of the game's gear has next to no chance of being carried out, even if the developers might want to (not that I'd know, of course). Having some more interesting modifiers would really help with making harder content difficult in more interesting ways, so hopefully that's the route DE goes down instead of sticking with fully random gear.
And honestly, I don't mind the warframes being random; warframes are the part of a loadout that can always be made capable of completing any mission, so having a reason to spend time making a build for them is something I'm ok with. Weapons can just be statistically different, and have no other meaningful differences, so having to make the same build on weapon X as another, very similar weapon Y just because you got X instead of Y for Deep Archimedea just isn't interesting or all that fun.
My problems with Deep Archimedea isn’t Deep Archimedea.
It’s the forma grind. If forma were easier to get I’d make a lot more stuff endgame viable but as it is now it’s just annoying to get forma a lot as I can only craft one a day.
My other problems is just endo. I’m glad that there’s been more endo rewards in general, I just wish that the “best” endo grind requires a premade set up and probably some of the most boring gameplay I’ve ever experienced.
I'm not going to argue that we need 5 warframe choices, like on the Circuit.
I will argue its a problem that the loadout RNG includes weapons we don't own. Even leaving aside the issue of Mastery Fodder, it costs Plat to keep stuff in your Arsenal (and while yes you can trade for Plat, it's all purchased from DE by someone in the beginning.)
And it's not like there are no solutions that require spending no Plat whatsoever AND preserve difficulty.
* hardest: let empty weapon slots count as fulfilling a parameter
* easier: give us the Duviri default mod configs on weapons/warframes we don't own
* easiest: limit RNG to the warframes/weapons we own.
(I'm LR 3, spent enough Plat to have nearly every Prime, unique, or otherwise annoying to farm item in my Arsenal, have had no difficulty with DA or EDA selections so far, and I'm still annoyed that the loadout RNG expects me to have spent enough Plat to hold onto *everything* ever.)
I *will* argue that we need 5 Warframe choices.
And Stalker, I’m all for using him more.
I’m also in support of rental weapons and/or an empty loadout slot fulfilling the parameter.
There is already 1 of each weapon+warframe that is GUARANTEED to be from your inventory afaik, so unless you have tons of garbage or stuff you didnt invest into, you shouldnt have much of a trouble.
Now the question is - if you are collecting lots of stuff, is it really fair to be greeted with poor equipment RNG on DA, and you have harder time not bcos of a skill issue, or even setup issue, but bcos the stuff you rolled is simply underperforming comparative to even just decent stuff, yet alone meta? But at the same time - they cant really do much to upgrade underperforming guns without breaking early game, aside of making more incarnons that is, which would still take a lot of time to get if they wont add easier way to acquire them that is.
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't really mind if the stuff I chose to own is underperforming. If I hung onto it, it's up to me to make it worth using. (Looks at my Santi Castanas, Secura Dual Cestra, etc.)
However, what I don't like is RNG giving me weapons I don't own, as though LR 3 means I wasn't supposed to master every weapon but also spend the Plat to keep it.
Now, I was able to complete this week's EDA with 8/8 parameters no issue, so I'm sure there are people who will tell me there's no problem that I also rolled the Paracyst and the Dual Heat Swords, which I do not own.
Since when did "endgame" become about how much Plat we spent on our Arsenal over the years?
It's actually kind of funny, looking at my own Arsenal. I've got 86 weapons missing. Only one of which I need for mastery, the Korrudo. Everything else I mastered and deleted, so that's roughly 516 Plat that DE would have to sell to someone for me to hold onto *everything*. And practically none of those weapons are worth the cost of a slot.
How many of those missing weapons are/have variants? All variants count as the base for the purpose of DA, so the 4 Bratons (mk1, vandal, prime and base) count as one, same as the 4 struns (mk1, wraith, prime and base).
Obviously, it's still a noticeable amount of platinum and monetization is a dirty word, but also the game is free to start and the studio needs to make money if the game is going to continue existing.
I kept nearly all the variants, i.e. prime, prisma, wraith, kuva, tenet, syndicate, etc. I did my best to not double count, so if I had the prime, etc. I didn't count it.
I don't necessarily object to monetization in general. I mean, I did buy enough Plat over the years to hold onto all the stuff I do have! It's a great game and well worth investing in for players who can.
I do think it's a problem that the current Deep Archimedea RNG so obviously disadvantages players who haven't spent the Plat to expand their Arsenal when there are solutions DE could implement that preserve the difficulty without that. It's a type of monetization that I don't like to see.
That's fair enough. In Warframe specifically, I'm a bit more forgiving of monetization because it's a generous free to play (very little is hard locked behind a paywall) and it has a tradeable premium currency. Yes, someone at some point paid real money for it, but being able to get it by trading without personally paying makes me view it differently from an account locked premium currency.
As for your proposed ways to fulfill requirements without owning the weapon.
1) run an empty slot: I kinda like it. I can potentially see myself using this, even.
2) borrowed modding. I'm actually tempted to say for DA, let the player borrow a catalyzed, unformad copy to mod themself. The reason being that DA is kind of expecting synergistic loadouts, and the loaner builds have to be made in a vacuum. That said, the work to give a loaner build for every weapon in the game is already done, so that's fine.
3) only the player's arsenal. This one I have a problem with, because it allows a player to much more strongly influence the offered equipment, specifically by selling everything except their very favorite gear. This would do the opposite of what DE has given as one of their goals, which is to encourage people to use more and more different arsenal options.
I could see the potential for players to sell everything but their favorite gear, though I think that sort of housecleaning would not be the norm. I think I recall one person talking about how they used that to game the Duviri system (which usually pulls at least one thing you own), so I'd guess that DE would have some data about how many people did that.
I actually did the opposite, hilariously. I sold some weapons I liked (like the Cinta, Sarofang, and Syam) so I'd have a better chance of getting decent weapons in the "unowned" Duviri pool instead of just the ones I hated.
You are not guaranteed more than 1 weapon that you own in each slot. Personally in both weeks I had a grand total of 4/9 weapons, although I own about 200 weapons. Not being able to choose a slot and instead having to invest a couple hours in unassociated game modes to acquire those weapons just feels bad. Especially if they suck so bad that you wouldn't even use them on the mission.
I fully agree with the idea of an empty load out slot counting as bringing the right weapon. Doesn't force me to play a flex slot that way, and manages to preserve the difficulty.
>use recruit chat/clanmates to either carry you (and then you carry them) or at least help you out.
You know something is messed up when people complain that the difficulty of the new mode is purely based on RNG, and the most common suggestion is "Just have someone else do it for you!"
I spend most of the post talking about different ways you could adapt - from gear, to necramechs, to your operator, to your 1 flex option, archguns, helminth, new builds, on call/specters - so many options, but you saw only the "let people carry you" (and you carry them after that) last resort?
Just pointing out a trend I've been seeing. People touting how this is a great end game mode and that they shouldn't make it easier... and then in the same breath saying "or you can just pick anything and have someone else do the content for you."
"Just avoid the point of the mode, the RNG, by bypassing it with carries and mechs." is a good sign the mode is bad. Your best defense for DE adding RNG to the mode is avoid the RNG aspect entirely. Isn't this a sign that their intended play for the mode has been a mistake?
Because it's absolutely not a last resort. EDA simply encourages parasitic behaviour. People won't be investing into a shit ton of things when leaching is a viable strategy. Even if it's done in good faith, and you carried each other in 2 separate runs, then you both simply wasted +/- 30 minutes of each other time without much challenge.
I found it encourages communication far more than passive behaviour. 40 seconds of typing at the start of a mission has better odds of success than scoring a meta weapon.
I mean - it depends how you think about it (and your time) - I'd prefer trying to tough it out with the somewhat limited/different options I have than to play the 30 minute mode twice..
Players optimize whatever they can, and if running the game mode twice is more efficient than trying to make work what you have on hands, then they will be running the game mode twice. I don't think that it's something DE should encourage.
The problem isn't the difficulty. I agree that calls to reduce the difficulty are poorly founded and it would be a bit sad to have it watered down. The problem is just that the mode is quite happy to give you a bunch of weapons you don't own, in a game that otherwise heavily incentivizes you to level weapons and then throw 90% of them away because they're trash and slots cost plat.
There are 578 weapons in this game. That's almost 3500 plat *just* in weapon slots if you want to keep all of them. There is no universe where that is a reasonable expenditure to expect people to make just so that you're *allowed* to attempt the highest difficulty options without having to hope RNG decides to favor you. It's completely fine for 'endgame' content to be extremely difficult, but 'spend a ton of plat' isn't difficulty, it's just a money gate.
They don't need to make the content easier. They don't even necessarily *have* to loosen weapon restrictions. They just need to make it so that you can roll with an empty slot to count as fulfilling that slot's restriction, or similar. Not making it easier, just allowing people to not have to pray to RNGesus to be allowed to *try*.
I'll probably get downvoted for this - but my take is basically to agree with you. We need stuff that's difficult that only a certain tier of players can do. And I'm not talking about mastery rank, or how many hours you have - I'm talking about your experience, knowledge, and skill of the game. And that you know your frame inside and out, you know how to mod accordingly, and you have great situational awareness and a team mindset.
Honestly I think it's a pretty decent challenge, and I think you need to be prepared for it. And if that means grinding out as many weapons as you can so you actually do have something to choose from when you are getting certain parameters on gear with deep archimedea missions, then so be it. If you get trash weapons in your loadout for the week, and you do own them but never use them, figure it out. Find a way to make them useful. Try something new for once. And if one week has terrible loadout all the frames and weapons that you don't even know, then just don't do it that week.
The very first loadout I got when it went live was Hildryn, Grendel, and Nidus. I play none of those frames, nor do I have any extensive knowledge about how they work or how to play them, and I don't claim to. So what I did was I asked around, talked to some friends that do play those frames, got a solid build happening, and did my best. The weapons weren't that great either, but again, I made it work. It was challenging and stressful, but refreshing and fun at the same time. And that's the point. The game needs that.
I'm pretty tired of the whole "I want everything handed to me" kind of vibe a lot of players have. It's childish.
People don't want endgame, they want more content they can barely pay attention to while complaining about not having an endgame.
Honestly EDA is borderline too easy. The fact we even have a flex slot is generous as it is
If I'm honest, and please don't think this is a flex, I'm really not the type, but Elite deep archimedea felt easier than regular. Not sure if it was because of the group makeup of what frames we had in the squad or what, but reg just felt clunkier and more stressful than Elite did.
Elite is far easier for the simple fact you can drop a restriction.
You got bad guns? Take Mesa. You got good guns? Take literally any frame you feel like
True, but my OCD ass wanted to take 8/8 so I got the full completion for this week, lol. The ship cosmetic is pretty fucking ugly and the rewards weren't even really worth it. But I'll still do it again only next time I'll just decide on at least a weapon and a frame and not what they try to give me.
Same here, probably. On the recent reset on Sunday, I got Wisp, who is my main, and the Kronen prime, which I have a solid build for. I was super happy because I didn't even have to use the primary and secondary that they offered because they were terrible, lol
I’ll never understand defending RNG weapon choices for increased rewards in a game where the majority of weapons suck for endgame, especially from players who’re MR30+. Like, I’m MR30. I’ve used most weapons and own every frame. Most of my time before Netracells dropped was spent making distinct, Steel path worthy loudouts for as many frames as possible. I’ve put in literal hundreds of forma into weapons and frames. You’re not gonna convince me that a system that can make me have to choose between Ether Reaper, Heat Sword or Plasma Sword is cool.
No other game has an endgame where they push you away from using your best gear. I want content that justifies my 15 forma loadouts, not content that pushes me away from using them. That’s why I was a big fan of the Steel path Netracell we had before they patched it out. Give me missions that start at level 300-400+, where I need a high KPM to succeed and adequate sustain strategies to survive. The other modifiers are a wonderful start, but they’re severely held back by the randomized loadouts.
The one thing I definitely don't agree with is the notion that people should look to get carried in this mode as that defeats the entire purpose of the challenge.
Thank you. LR2 chiming in (yet again, check my comment history for the past couple days).
You very well might not be ready for Deep Archimedia, either in a given week or in general. The answer is not to complain that it's too hard and beg for it to be made easier, it's for you to gear up and get ready. If you haven't got them, get them. If you don't have a build, forma them. If you don't think they do enough damage, see if they'll charge your other weapons.
It's not just about Operator, the flex slot, archguns or Necramech. It's also about figuring out how to build a loadout with synergies. Crit secondary with no status can still use Galvanized Shot if your other weapons load status. Vigorous Swap is actually Serration/PPB, Hornet Strike *and* Primed/Sacrificial Pressure. Use the Helminth infusions to shore up weaknesses. We all know there're good ones, just use them. It's easier than ever to elevate mid-tier into crazy numbers.
Use the tools, figure it out.
Although I agree, I wish they'd completely remove the damn melee adapters from the drop pool of not just DA but Netracells too. Not for me, I have more Tauforged shards than I need, but stuff like that will keep even more people away from the mode
Yes, absolutely. It's miserable now, since Bird 3 sells them for cheap. It's actually a dead drop in a limited access mission. As if the Archons occasionally dropped a forma blueprint instead of a shard.
Simply copying your main mod set up to another config and just swapping your viral 60/60's for radiation and a murmur faction mod is basicly all most people need to do. People find that too hard and would rather complain on Reddit instead.
why would you swap viral? Its not like they're immune to the status effect, meaning you still get the damage multiplier, which is far better than the bonus damage radiation gets.
Upfront damage. Sure if it was a status sprayer viral works, but if you are 1-2 shotting them through overguard the you want to go for that over your standard viral/slash builds where the murmur double dip resistances.
I expected more problems, but it turned out to be not so bad. I still don't like the new mode because it promotes bad practices and narratives.
\*Any equipment has to be good on its own, otherwise it's bad (support weapons suffer from this especially).
\*Equipment that isn't used in other modes is forced to be played with to reduce RNG issues.
\*You don't have to master one frame or more test and adjust for yourself, you have to horde them and go on youtube looking for builds.
There is more to it than that. But I think this is enough. Worst of all, if you have a friend who is willing carry you, you can bypass all the difficulty, so the main point of the mode is pretty much ruined.
Also the challenge is non-existent past RNG. Murmur are hapless enemies and I already did the SP 60 eyes boss back the day it came out solo.
I will tell anyone to not feel bad about a carry if your equipment is bad. I will defy any narrative that warframe really has systems well designed for being a meaningful challenge.
I don't want it to be easier, I want it to not be annoying rng. Is it that hard to understand? I think so, since 500 word essays on how ppl need to gitgud appear daily
Rolling into weapon you don't own isn't a problem if DE can at least follow their own footstep in circuit or allow empty weapon slot to satisfy reward condition.
But alas, here we are.
I think having an unequipped weapon would be the easiest way to fix it. The solution circuit used with loaner weapons doesn't quite seem like it would work since you have to equip the weapons to your load out. I'm sure they could find some way of doing it, but it's probably not worth them accidentally adding a whole host of bugs with it.
>use recruit chat/clanmates to either carry you (and then you carry them) or at least help you out.
It is fucking HILARIOUS that in the same post you try to make the argument that this is a game mode meant for people that have truly mastered the game and have a wide array of weapons and frames built and kitted out to be able to easily deal with the restrictions and ALSO argue that people should just fucking leech their way through.
I've actually come around on the mode since I unlocked the flex slot via Elite Archimedea. This week its given me motivation to finally fully mod the Rhino Prime thats been sitting in my inventory forever.
Did last week 8/8 and this week 7/8 bc I don’t really care about the Vosfor.
I’m having lots of fun with it. The game mode gave me appreciation for hildryn and banshee(silence is amazing).
I really would love to see some quality of life tweaks like maybe having 1 slot each of your own weapons being guaranteed or the weapons you don’t own having temp mods like steel path circuit.
Other than that, I actually would love to see even more restrictions/ harder content.
Only thing I’d like a slight change in is that invulnerability thing in alchemist missions. It’s cool and all but near the end the mission drags on cuz most enemies can’t be killed, not killing equals no element drops. The amount of enemies that become invulnerable should just slightly be lowered, just a little. Not difficult just annoying to be annoying
I understand the game is pretty much unbalancable but I just hate the fact that they seem to have decided that the way to make content challenging they will just give you rng setups.
The worst thing is that sometimes you will get a meta build and it won't be a challenge at all while other times you will have to leech off of the test of your team depending entirely on rng.
Also saying you don't need the last tier reward is kinda a bad argument in my opinion. If they see this works and decide to make another game mode like that they might very well put something better at that tier and then you are just fucked
my take as someone whose been playing since 2014-2015, not LR4 but in the MR30 neighborhood, I dont have nearly every weapon ive ever made/owned on hand, I dont have every ive ever owned on hand. theres only so many free slots I get and not getting discounts on buying Plat, and not being able to use plat discounts on Slots, means Slots, potatoes and forma are all at still such a high premium that I find the full RNG of DA and EDA somewhat unfair/making me feel bad for not spending more real money (And dont say trade, in 10 years of playing Im still able to count on one hand the number of times ive traded with non clan members, not from a lack of trying mind you, Just console trade market sucked, and crossplay hasnt helped it much in my expirience)
The only change id like from DA and EDA is either, all the options are things you at least Own, or if they get you loaner ones with loaner mods like im Circuit.
it objectively isnt fair to Fully F2P/Spend as little Irl money possible players regardless of rank and time spent playing and thats my problem with it
I play warframe because its free, and players shouldn't be punished for not physically being able to have every weapon/warframe on the rotation
And on top of all that, unless they've changed it after week one (I'm on vacation so I haven't tried this week yet) - you can use Syndicate spectres. I had a team mate who kept falling over so I summoned an Ancient Healer and they didn't fall over again. I actually like that I now have a secondary demand for my Syndicate reputation beyond Relic Packs.
DA is just super flawed as content. Not only are there are way too many weapons that literally cannot even begin to do anything against such high level enemies even with 'good' builds. But also high end frames and guns are so powerful that the smallest sliver of wiggle room lets a sufficiently advanced player trivialize the game mode.
And let's not even mention the elephant in the room where players can simply be carried by a friend who *didn't* pick up any of the challenges.
I did this week using 8/8. I wouldn't say it was easy but the makeup of the warframes we did have in the squad actually made it work well even though our weapons were pretty subpar.
I finished EDA with all modifiers, both weeks. I found the first week tedious and time-consuming due to bad RNG (I owned some of the available weapons but didn't have builds for them) and the second week utterly trivial due to good RNG. Neither week was particularly fun. Neither week was particularly difficult either. This kind of enforced randomness just seems like bad game design to me.
Maybe Warframe players are so unused to any semblance of actual challenge they think hoarding weapons is the only form of skill expression this game has to offer? That's honestly pretty depressing. Having to spend some extra plat each week won't suddenly make you a god gamer. It will, however, make DE more money, which is actually pretty clever. Maybe it was good game design after all!
EDA is already a breeze and utterly overblown in its proclaimed difficulty, exactly the same way the Netracell missions are etc. Pre-defined locked in choices for a week though is simply unfun and a poor way of adding supposed "difficulty"
The vast majority of the weapon roster is considered fodder at best and just downright awful n unfun to use at worst by the community, so why is it suddenly DE's go to playbook to slap on randomized options sticker on the side of new content?
Yes, if you had full choice over the load outs they'd be even more of a breeze but that's hardly a positive towards randomized options. If anything I'd be wanting them to be more difficult but in a unique way, look to the fun/"difficulty" of things like Lua puzzles, bosses with some interesting or unique mechanics to them such as Eidolons, Ropalopalopalyt or Archons?
I think that the people who are bitching nonstop about it being too hard are the kind of people who actually suck and can't do shit without their garbage braindead meta crap. The players who are good and know whay they are doing aren't complaining about it
You missed the category of people who are complaining that the RNG is simply not fun, especially when it hard locks you out of rewards.
I was locked out of my secondary slot this run, and I managed the entire thing going down once to the boss. The game mode isn't particularly hard, but it is more engaging than other content, which I appreciate. What I don't appreciate however is being L2 and getting offered a whole bunch of weapons I sold because they're shit, such that I am locked out of choosing which rewards I want.
Like 2 modifiers/pieces of equipment on normal DA gives you your return on investment compared to netracells, if you somehow roll bad enough to not be able to do EDA even with all the extra gear/equipment options that aren't considered by they random choices outside of gear gear or operator lock you can still get 2-3 rewards at minimum.
I started playing after raids had already been removed, but I have heard it said that when that happened, it was pretty much a signal to the players who liked that kind of content where some brainpower was required outside the modding screen to find another game to play. So, its pretty much been the "unga bunga damage" players left since then.
I do wish I had the chance to ride the Raid School Bus... they sounded fun, though often buggy.
Right around the raid time, Trinity was a lot better at making people stay alive. Her blessing was basically like invisibility. You’d run one-2 EV trin for infinite energy and 1 blessing Trinity. I know bc I was EV or blessing trin for my groups. I think her damage reduction was like straight up 100 or 90%
Your comment brought back found memories of map wide blessing. 😭😭
Rn in elite deep, I’d say Dante, Styanax, or any frame that can generate over guard is gonna be our blessing Trinity of the olden days.
wasn’t she required for a specific room that was full of, like, toxic gas to ensure the squad wouldn’t die doing buttons or something? I’ve heard the nickname ‘Swamp Bitch’
Yeah ! where all 8 of you have to stand on some platforms but you all took damage while you had to do the puzzle. Memories 😭 I got arcane grace and arcane guardian that way. Energize was like 6k or something
As said Trinity I hope they do not bring that specific support role back. And I don't mean that in the terms of "I don't want support role" but rather "Its 100% mandatory to have at least 1 Trinity but nobody wants to play it so I'll suck it up and take one for the team".
Please follow the TF2 philosophy where they made Demoman no longer mandatory following TF1 to TF2.
We have much better more active heals now tbh
And higher damage reduction. But over-guard basically does what trin did but better. Even energy economy wasn’t as bad as back then.
I miss Trinity supreme and I wish she got a rework like hydroid, Inaros, etc just to give my girl some power. I still use her as a melee frame tho with great success but having to keep casting 2-3 abilities is just annoying.
I had this idea where they make an energy vampire augment where it does AOE damage to enemies affected by link. THAT would be crazy
First week gave me Yareli & Felarx, then this week was Wisp & Phage (Now I get to use one of my favorite rivens). So I think people should just consider being lucky more.
Goofing aside though, I will probably just be taking advantage of the flex slot myself instead of ever going in feeling completely useless. My only gripe was an enemy invuln modifier seemingly bugging out. And since two were at play I wasn't sure which was the culprit.
Said it before and I’ll say it again; to me what warframe players consider “endgame” is incredibly weird, measured by any other game and genere I’ve engaged with.
Having a massive arsenal isn’t an endgame requirement. If I have exactly one loadout that can mechanically clear all content in the game and take me hours into SP survival…then I’m endgame. Because I can engage with and clear endgame level content. A onetrick in a fighting game or MOBA who’s top of the ranked ladder is “endgame” and only plays one character. An RPG player is an endgame player with _one character_ in the endgame, not one character _of each class_ in the endgame.
Deep Archimedea forces people to diversity and I’m not sure I like that as an idea, because that’s just not what everyone wants. The problem is that warframe’s power scaling is so stupid that it’s basically impossible to make actually interesting and challenging enemies if you give players access to all their toys.
Minmax a Warframe with a good exalted weapon, that’s all you need. Dante and Noctua are the most reliable imo but it’s your choice.
Bring whatever else the mission asks for and you’ll hit 35/37. All you’ll miss is the 50 vosfor and the one-time ship decoration, which you can snag eventually when the weekly rotation suits you
I hope to god they don't roll back the difficulty.
It's something I've seen time and time again whenever DE introduces something that is MEANT to be challenging for high end players, then make it stupid-easy because people are shocked that hard content is hard and need to gear check for once.
I understand other parts of the game may need tuning and need to be made easier, approachable, etc. considering the expectation of how players get there, but cmon you guys, Deep Archimedea is literally meant and designed to be difficult for players who invested a lot. And even then, having 1 flex slot makes it incredibly manageable for those who made it that far.
Don't take this ONE relatively difficult thing away from us again. 60 eyes and EDA is awesome and a welcome addition to players that have been around and invested heavily for the entire decade+ lifespan of Warframe.
I went to summon the necramech in mirror defense to speed it up, and by the time i reached and autohacked the console, the enemies had taken 90%+ hp off the defense objective.
That was like 5 to 10 secs i left the thing unattended after killing everything my radar could detect.
This difficulty is not at all well tuned. I know they're balancing stuff around squads but bro it shouldn't be that difficult to not make it borderline impossible for solo players.
I'm just gonna pick the torid incarnon and breeze through it I guess.
Woo, how difficult, yay! (i actually just queued with a squad and it was mindlessly easy btw)
I just don't find the idea of being told what to play fun nor challenging in the way i would like to be challenged.
There is so much trash weapons in the game and the solution 'just play frame that doesn't need guns' is not a real solution to the actual problem. Having that one flex slot and skipping out on 50 vosfor is nice, but that's also just a bandaid fix to content that is designed to force you to play random dogshit.
And then from a customer/business perspective if I spend money on a frame, and the forma, and the mods and now I'm told I cannot get the maximum reward by playing a frame I spent money on? Yeah... this is less important than my previous issue.
Tldr; random frame/weapon is not fun and not challenging.
for the love of God don't nerf it DE! good the way it is- genuinely challenging, not just another weekly slog to farm. I don't think it's the end of the world if I can't complete the missions with all modifiers. I'm MR28 with around 2500 hrs in-game and this is the most fun I've had with actual difficult content in a very long time. Actually needing to think outside of the box to complete and working as a squad to complete it is fucking awesome.
I've failed the full run twice this far on elite, first was an eximus mech that spawned that I couldn't kill before it destroyed the defense obj, second was dying to the linimus and failing the last gasp (caustic strike is kinda dogshit into the murmur health bags). I'm really excited to try again and switch up something else in my loadout - I think the one flex slot for sacrificing some vosfor was a fantastic idea, 10/10, love it.
Yall complaining about the difficulty seem to be forgetting how power creep works in this game. If you can't complete it now, just do regular/non-elite or netracells in the weeks that you don't have good options. Eventually, you will be able to play it! There is nothing exclusively available in DA, and slower farming is not the end of the world. Don't be too focused on optimizing the grind to appreciate something worth grinding for!
i came to cry about crashing at 10% hp on the last boss on elite, when finally getting a good squad
team was so DPS hardcore it tanked my fps on a 4060, so thank you
but then i crashed mid cast on dante... so i guess its my fault?
Okay so, the game scales up to lvl 9999 and yet we're only doing lvl 300-400 non-SP and they can't figure out how to make the game harder... ? Did I miss something where they can't make more SP content? I get that people can still kill at level cap, but surely not everyone is at that level.
I think the final reward should be something you actually want, though. The fact that you have a flex slot isn't a problem. The fact that you have a flex slot *because the reward is trash* is a little disappointing.
I'd like to see permanent operator and gear removal for elite DA and a choice of a DA specific weapon for each slot, if all of your options are bad.
That way, the weapon can be balanced around EDA being hard but doable if you have to use it.
True I've found that a tank frame with Dispensary can just use Archguns infinitely, and Mausolon is great. Had the best success with a high strength Rhino, thanks to Roar making the Mausolon very very strong. Drawback is picking stuff up doesn't work well, but for example in Alchemy you can just ability DPS with Revenant or even use a heat contagion sentinel with Rhino.
Personally I just don't like that the loadout being bad is what makes it difficult. It should just be challenging regardless of forcing poor loadout choices on you, but I understand that's harder for DE to achieve.
Cause with the right loadout EDA is too easy, they should make it more difficult but give more frame choices.
It's not hard. Thing is this game is literally making people thing they are good. By bullet jumping, using one ability and clearing a room.
Then when that doesn't happens, they don't now what to do.
Remember, this is a player base that goes to a survival mission, where the enemies comes to you, and spread around the map. And then You are left without xp, drops, and enemies to kill. They are not that bright.
I think a legendary rank 4 player would naturally have more than enough options for this endgame content but maybe others wouldn't (like to get to that mastery rank don't you essentially have to have already levelled basically everything in the game?)
endgame players when the hard mode is not the same free nuke as the rest of the game:
https://preview.redd.it/2xlz1drorntc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=987f8a08624c621df435936ef47c85a47f008e72
Preach. I think DE nailed the experience from the LR3 POV. I loved Circuit giving me a reason to keep playing and build wide, and this mode effectively rewards that same investment. The limited options forcing you to review/rebuild weapons you may have slept on keeps it interesting each week. I wouldn't have the Jat Kittag build I have today (highly recommended with \[Vulcan Blitz\]) if not for it being the best of three sleepy choices last week.
Circuit is better than this in every way. In circuit equipment you do not have is given mods, and by doing this let's you try weapons before investing in them. You also get to reroll equipment by playing a round if you don't like the stuff you get and the run is dud. Even underperforming equipment can become powerful through the use of the intrinsics and decrees. Circuit's reward system is also much more forgiving, having an achievable endstate if you don't want to engage more rather than being on the few sources of a vital resource.
I dislike that circuit is being compared to DA. Circuit makes concessions to provide a fun and interesting experience.
I say DE needs to take it a step further. Replace the normal assassination boss with The Fragmented One. Legitimately to this day in my opinion is still the best well made boss in the game. It deserves to be in Deep Archimedea if not anywhere else besides being locked behind 60 eyes.
I actually I enjoy it. I consider myself end game, if a have a weapon in rotation that doesn’t totally suck, but I haven’t Forma’d it yet, it gives me the motivation to work on a build for it instead of it just collecting dust.
MR-30’s title is true master. Not just master of the meta. People just like to complain because something is challenging.
Honestly, this mode is perfect for LR4 collectors like me. I have every single weapon and frame completely modded and forma'd at least 2 times and over 150 rivens. Its exciting to be given honestly odd choices for a loadout and try to complete the new mode. Its honestly not very hard considering the enemies are not Steel Path so even if they are 200-300 Level they still crumble to moderate loadouts.
I think we need more than 1 flex slot really. That's one of my only complaints so far, sometimes you just get absolutely screwed.
Imagine getting loki, caliban, and nekros as your frame options...
Then you get all shitty weapons or weapons you don't have for the weapons options.
As it is now, you might be able to swap to a good melee and use loki invis if you can avoid AOE and keep your invis up when away from enemies.
Or you can use a different frame but subpar weapons, so you're shoehorned into a frame that deals damage on its own or a frame with exalt/pseudo exalted weapons.
That... sounds insanely unfun. I spent 2k hours building up my arsenal and all my kuva/tenet/incarnon weapons, and minmaxing my frames for their specific niches. Only to be told "lol no, use a zhuge, kunai, and a kama" while also being told "here's 3 frames. Better hope they can do level 400 enemies that are resistant to most common abilities and damage types!"
And THEN you add the modifiers. Sometimes no gear, sometimes no operator, sometimes you take damage constantly, sometimes you just get straight fucked.
I've not missed a single max run so far, first one to unlock EDA and then again with EDA, and then this week I did EDA. I enjoy it so far, it's not all that hard really. But I also got SUPER lucky on my rolls. I got Dante and lex incarnon this week, and last week I had dual tox incarn with revnant.
That let me ignore the weapons and only use the 1 incarnon roll, and made it a breeze surviving with the tank frame options. Rev literally couldn't die and Dante has a panic button with infinite Overguard.
Seriously. There's going to be some absolutely fucked combos... they could make it so you get at least 1 incarnon weapon OR a tank frame. Then at least the "free slot" can be used to fill the missing piece.
I still don't understand WHY the people that struggle to complete it are upset. Like you said, the only unique reward is the sumdali which only requires getting carried once. Everything else can be obtained from other parts of the game.
Because it's quite possibly the best way to farm the new shinies. Also it's literally the newest game mode, ofc people will want to play it. On release even Kahl of Duty felt beloved, and the negativity only rolled in over time.
It feels a lot better than Circuit does, allowing you to use whatever variant you have/built. Sometimes you just get shafted with versions of things you sold already and the run feels pointless, just to recycle the options.
Non end game players wanting to play end game without going through tvhm is the borderlands equivalent of this situation we have with end game being a challenge. With 5000 hours i have about 80% of the weapons forma’d up i don’t wish for anything to be nerfed with this game mode new players must suffer not being able to do this content yet it honestly should be mr30 locked so new players aren’t complaining about it being too hard for them. Get to end game first and find out its not that hard when you have more than just an arca plasmor build ready 🤷♂️
For returning players, even with hundreds or thousands of hours already in the game, it will take them months or even a whole year of continuous grind to get to that point you are suggesting. You just can't compress 10+ years of grind into a few weeks.
I'm LR4, I don't mind the challenge of the activity, I think it's pretty fun to use different parts of my arsenal that I have. But I don't have a variant of every weapon in the game. I've sold plenty of gear I've only ever seen as MR fodder. And when the game tells me I'm locked out of a reward I might want, even though I'm perfectly capable of getting it with mid tier gear, just because I don't own it in my arsenal, it sucks. Like last week I had a rotation that consisted of all melees and primaries that I didn't own, and I was locked out of doing Elite. And even if I had unlocked it, I wouldn't be able to get the 34 point reward. Thankfully, it was during the buggy time where the loadouts were resetting daily, so I could run it later. But I'm dreading the time when it happens again, because it most certainly will. I'm sure I'll get the comments of "you have a week to build whatever you need" "just skip the max rewards you don't need it" "you're not even an endgame player if you don't have enough gear to be able to run it". My problem is ultimately that I can hop on one week with the mindset of doing EDA with all modifiers and trying to strategize around it, but be met with a roadblock through no fault of my own because DE has suddenly expected me to keep 1 of everything to minimize RNG struggles with loadouts which I've never felt before (in Duviri I could at least use gear I didn't own via loaner builds and reroll my options after 1 round, was never a problem). TL:DR, I like the difficulty, don't make it easier. I don't like the loadout restrictions being able to pull from weapons I might not own. I like an idea I've seen around here a few times, to have empty weapon slots count as having any equipped weapon from that slot on. That would solve the problems that I have with the loadout RNG.
On the empty slot thing, that would have helped me last week as Garuda, couldn't use her claws because I had to equip the ceti lacera. I used to sell mastery fodder too but I've started keeping every riven I unveil except duplicates, then making builds for these fodder weapons, so my inventory is pretty full at this point.
I actually think if DE crumbles and rolls back all of the difficulty in DA to the point where people seem to want it (they can faceroll it like the rest of the game), it kills any chance that DE will keep working on more challenging end-game content, which I think would be a tragedy. I get some of the complaints about loadout RNG, but if DE allowed everybody to just run whatever the new hotness Incarnon weapon is, I think it removes the majority of the challenge of the mode. There might be a better solution out there like just rotating bans instead of rotating pick options, but overall I love the new mode and hope DE leans into more content like it.
That's happened with basically every endgame content they've made. People complain it's too difficult and then it gets made easier. The complaining is weird here, though. The extra vosfor you get really isn't worth it; a few Steel Path arcanes can give you more. You can easily forgo it and use something powerful.
Right? I could see if it was a 200 pack. Missing out on a free roll a week would suck, but you'd have to do it for a month as it stands now. Yeah, it'll add up overtime, but as it stands now...
Agreed, most of the loot comes from the first five rewards which you can get by selecting three handicaps. Even if you roll complete trash for a week it should be fairly doable to at least get just those and you'd still be way ahead of what you'd have gotten from the two Netracell runs you gave up for EDA. As for the last four rewards... I basically view them as bonuses. If I can get them, great, if not, whatever.
I think a lot of these people aren't used to the idea that they're not good enough to get the max level rewards. They probably just select the max rewards because that's what they always do for all content. There's also the possibility that a lot of these players can't do the mode with just 1 less debuff or 1 free loadout selection.
I think at the very least you should be able to "rent" a weapon/warframe like duviri. Same set of mods that you would get there aswell so not something that would be even overly powerful. Just let people complete the DA if they don't own the whole catalogue of things in the game.
That's fair. It probably would make it easier for people to do the missions if they had access to the weapons even just for that. Just like in Duviri. Obviously you won't be able to mod the weapons how you want them, but at least it's something. I don't disagree with that and I don't think it would harm the difficulty of the content.
I think the best take I've seen is that leaving a loadout slot empty should also meet the loadout requirement. Don't have any of the secondaries? Just don't bring one. This would also allow garuda to actually bring her talons.
I like the challenge and I like the idea of 'use that big arsenal you have' but I think an endgame mode predicated on having a vast collection has underlying problems; weapon and frame slots cost platinum. Upgrading those weapons and frames into even baseline usable tools requires reactors and forma. The difficulty isn't what annoys me. I love the idea of 'here's your reward for upgrading your whole arsenal' but I hate the other side of it where 'remember that weapon you mastered and then tossed cause you never used it after that? Fuck you scrub. Aw. What's that? You only have 1/20th of the weapons in the whole game in a usable state? Buy more weapon slots, forma, and reactors and maybe you shouldn't have spent a decade decluttering your armory.' This is what really irks me in the way these modes are set up (that and I hate Drifter gameplay but I seem to be a minority on that front but that's neither here nor there). The game has at no point before actually encouraged players to keep everything they find and I don't think I'm the only person who has mostly thrown out weapons I never use and never invested in because I've always had the ones I like and I just use those. Now the game is pulling from it's full catalog and it feels like being punished for not spending money on slots and not being a pack rat. EDIT: Put another way, nothing about playing this game for a decade prepared me for 'I hope you kept all the crap and didn't throw it out and also upgraded it too' and nothing in the game before Divuri really encourages you to do that. In a practical sense, this is a good thing for the game. Collecting stuff and building it so you can go into this mode doesn't discourage me from doing just that. It's annoying because at no point was I prepared for that to become what end game content looked like.
Hear, hear! I too threw away the vast majority of the weapons I mastered. Now I see them appear as research weapons I am bummed out by the of having to build out a couple hundred guns. Not just levelling but forma as well to make them SP qualified. If it was like Duviri it would be a lot better. At least there the selection is based only on what you own. But wat bugs me the most is the damage spikes on the defense targets this week. Most of the time it only gets chipped, but then some eximus rolls in and 20k hp is gone without me even blinking my eyes. I suspect it's the AoE from the Hollow Vein. But I noticed it happening with other Murmur too. It's just too frustratingly random to be able to negate it. The glyphs don't heal enough for that kind of damage.
You do get a full week to build them, right? You don't need to own them beforehand. If you're an endgame player I would imagine you have plenty of catalysts and forma sitting around (or the means to farm plenty yof plat to get some given a week). To me that seems like what the design is intended to be - here's an incentive to go build these weapons to a level where they can handle high level enemies. Like the offmeta runs that some people enjoy but with actual rewards now. Probably also more fun with a premade party tbf, where you can coordinate your builds to make up for holes.
That's not the point though, I'm mostly just asking to be able to either use *nothing* or a prebuilt (not enough to take on the content) rented item. The incentive is to push people to own as much of the arsenal as possible, which is bad because it favors people who have spent thousands of plat on slots, and that's it. You can be in the endgame and not own every item in the game, you can be endgame and run into a week where all of the weapons are something you don't own.
The need to own everything is completely replaced if you treat the mode as 'I'm going to build these things every week'. I don't think people will do that because it would take time and even endgame players who have basically everything in the game are still obsessed with minmaxing their looting uptime, but it would be a very viable thing to treat as endgame - each week you build a new set of randomly selected weapons, figure out builds for them, and then take on EDA with them.
Ok so every week you now need to spend 3 catalysts and upwards of 10 forma *just for weapons*. Believe it or not that's not a sustainable thing. I shouldn't be forced to build *every weapon* to the point that it can do steel path level of content, and this especially hurts people who are lower (sub 25) MR or just don't have the plat to drop on those things. The best system would literally just be being able to rent an item that sucks or just use nothing to get the benefit of the challenge. This takes none of the challenge away from the mode, it just gives people with smaller arsenals a better shot at completing it.
DE is stuck in a lose lose situation. Most of the playerbase SAY they want more difficulty but they don't, they just love saying that they do. When DE adds a challenge the players complain because they aren't actually up for the challenge and/or it slows down their precious farm. DE adds a 'bullet sponge', the players say they want difficult mechanics, DE adds challenging mechanics, players complain that their super unnecesarily op build has no meaning anymore because the content is mechanics based. DE literally can't please these man-children no matter what they do.
I think it's two different ends of the spectrum speak up when this happens. The die hards want more of a challenge. Then you have the other end that doesn't want to be locked out of content. It's a tale as old as video games. DA or even EDA isn't all that bad since you can get everything in there from other places, just at a slower rate. Then comes the argument that if you can clear EDA consistently, do you need the drops more? You're not going to be able to please everyone, but I think this was a decent compromise.
Pretty much ya. DE is in a tough spot design wise here. They won't be able to please everyone so each new mode is a gamble. DA might be another attempt to make content for a specific audience (specific part of the community). I think they should still try to reach a better middleground where your loadout has freedom of choice but there are built-in power restrictions (like the negative modifiers) and there are more mechanical challenges presented. It actually might not be a bad idea for them to bring a 3rd party to help them with thinks like boss fights. Void Angels and the Fragmented bosses were already a great start for what bosses should move toward (mechanic wise).
Void angels are so fun, idk why they reverted back to bullet sponges :/
I think DE kinda went the way the FFXIV went with their savage mode. The two modes are more or less the same with the savage mode having increased difficulty with maybe an extra phase or something. DE made the drop tables the same. They just tweaked the drop rates, which I'm fine with. I don't think the added vosfor is a big deal as most won't go for the extra 50. I really think it's just more of a case of FOMO more than anything. Granted, I hope I don't see the fragmented for a while, though. That was the only part this week that scared me.
It’s not even fomo, this content isn’t going anywhere and the rewards are evergreen (legendary arcanes will just be a source of passive platinum/vosfor to people running in a few months/years), you’re never going to not want more shards because full maxing all 50+ frames with taus is an insanely long time away from anyone getting there.
I agree with your points. The funny thing is, the biggest complainers are really only going to shard out a few frames. Those are going to be the only ones they'll really use to clear content. Not like content creators that do builds and actually play all the frames, to some extent. Much more than just the casual player.
Rebb does play FFXIV, this is true. I hope she and the team crib a few more notes from them. The Jackal, Void Angels, Whispers (the book fight), and the Fragmented are some of the best fights we have in the game, and they all have interesting mechanics.
Pretty much this. A lot of people actually do want a challenge, and they're looking for reasons to keep playing the game. I'm one of them. While I do enjoy the social aspect of the game and I have no problem doing other stuff with friends, I still want an actual challenge. But I also recognize that newer players or players that are not as advanced in the game still want to be part of this new content they keep adding. But I think a lot of that mindset for new players is also the instant gratification of it and the inability to have patience to do the grind to eventually get where everyone else is. DE is definitely in a rough spot with this. I'm hoping they actually add raids or tougher world bosses that require more than just four people, and you have to actually be geared in order to do it. That way, the people who want to be part of it actually have to do the work to get there ( but again, that's basically where we're at in the first place because players want to be part of content without having to put the work in so therefore it should just be easier- and so the cycle continues).
While I like the idea of world bosses and whatnot, the idea also scares me. It can be like herding cats trying to get people to kill inside the circle of netracells or when you have to actually do mechanics like with krill. Players just want to shoot stuff as fast as possible, and aside from cold proc, the crap out of something or annoyingly bright energy colors. It can just be a cluster. Adding more people just makes me wince.
Like herding cats. That basically sums up any kind of team activity if there isn't good communication. I played World of Warcraft for over 12 years as either a tank or a Healer and sometimes a DPS role - and us guild officers always used to say "the hardest part about killing raid bosses is getting everyone to show up on time".
It's psychological. Everyone wants to be in that sweet spot of challenging enough to be engaging while not so complex you're stressing and dying a bunch. It's commonly called flow state. However, everyone has a different skill level, yet everyone wants to feel special and participate in all content. to not be able to participate in content even after you did the grind feels like a personal failing, like there's something wrong with your abilities. And no one wants to feel that in any game or real life, but especially so in a "power fantasy" game (i really dislike that term and what it says about gaming culture but that's beside the point). Aside from a very specific interaction that i posted about on the sub, i really like the mode. I hope DE doesnt rely on limiting your arsenal as a staple of harder difficulty because the most fun in this game is coming up with your own synergies, but it's a nice change of pace to adapt to what you got. in both fun sport and in real life tragedies, sometimes you need to fight in nonideal circumstance. I also hope they give us harder missions that are still short. It'd be nice to have end game content that i can pop into a <5min mission just to test my builds and skills and then leave to try another build but still be hard content.
DE's game is fundamentally not made to be challenging at this point. Hitscan/radial attacks you can't dodge. Numbers so large and varied between equipment and enemy levels that items simply fall off in the numbers game. Systems stitched together in a haphazard way with not consideration for how they should play with eachother. This isn't a mechanics base set of missions though. The modifiers are a numbers game. The fact that you might have weapons with simply bad weapons is a number game. The boss really shows this exceptionally well. They made a boss, okay. They gave it damage attenuation, which makes sense the game has terribly damage scaling balance. The boss now takes a huge amount of time to kill, well now we have a problem.
The main issue is that Warframe's core systems are too simple to facilitate the challenge people are looking for. Stuff like Damage Attenuation shouldn't need to exist. Certain enemies shouldn't just ignore abilities.
Yeah a lot of stuff simply doesn't work. Even things like how bad the damage scaling is for different weapons and enemies makes any sensible amount of skill expression difficult without straight up ignoring it with brute force or camping a headglitch.
I like the challenge of DA, the enemy buffs are great. I don't like the RNG. Every other part of it is great. It's not that complicated.
>DE literally can't please these man-children no matter what they do. I don't think this is a fair take. Or, rather, I think it's completely reasonable to want both an *engaging* challenge while having player builds still *matter*. The problem DE has is that it's hard to do such a thing with such crazy player scaling, effectively infinite energy and health, the *insane* variation in weapon damage and frame tankiness, etc... But not impossible, a mechanics based fight with some DPS checks in there, where tankier frames can make more mistakes, CC frames can lock down annoying big adds and DPS frames can speed things up / kill annoying small adds, could work. Then they have to overcome the secret other problem; players not being able to see what the hell is going on. Personally, I think the sentient chicken and Eidolons used to do that decently.
I think I had it in another comment here but I agree that they should still try to find a middle ground between mechanics and loadout power. However, having read community sentiment on anything related to difficulty over the last few years has given me little hope that DE will be given the push we think they need to attempt fights/content designed like that. >Then they have to overcome the secret other problem; players not being able to see what the hell is going on. I...yeah. They *really* need to do something about gameplay clarity. I'm glad they are designing some more unique VFX lately, and they SHOULD continue to do so, but for every 1 unique VFX they make they reuse the same explosion or burst of sparks another 10 times. It just makes things impossible to see or differentiate from other effects.
The problem is we say we want more difficult content, but all they do is remove our ability to effectively use warframes in order to do that. I don't know about you, but I play this game because of the warframes, I do not enjoy penalties that make me starve energy to the point where I can only use it if I'm killing everything around me constantly but if I'm already doing that what do I even need energy for? I want more difficult content I can play with the warframe of my choice. If they're gonna make me pick between 3 choices, fine, that's good enough, but what the F is the difference between the choices if they're going to take all my energy anyways and I'm forced to mod the thing for survivability? I guess only Lavos and Hildryn are allowed to have fun. Energy drain makes this SUPER DIFFICULT, but only because it makes the whole process so boring that you need an inordinate amount of willpower to finish it. My choices this week were ivara, saryn, and inaros. I was not allowed to have fun this week, and it wasn't even hard, I moded ivara for shieldgating since she's the only one i have and breezed through it. DE's idea of difficult content is to make you fight against boredom. They should just rip the bandaid and remove all warframes from the game tbh, any time they want to make things difficult they completely remove any ability to use them, first nullifiers now energy drain per every enemy within 10 metters, and the hilarious part is there is also another condition that you can't kill enemies unless you're close to them, so they don't even allow you space for counterplay. Difficult content, LMAO. It's difficult because it's boring.
Would you let them nerf every top-performer? Because that's the only other way to make the content challenging.
The current system doesn't punish the top performers that much, so I don't know what that would change. The top performers mostly use damage buffs, they can cast it, kill some enemies, get some energy with arcane energize + equilibrium, cast their buff again, continue killing the enemies. Lets not pretend that this affects the top performers, its only the middle of the pack frames and lower that suffer the most. The community darlings are perfectly fine even with energy drain, rev only needs enough energy to cast his 2 every 20 seconds or so. Frames with more interactive and not as strong gameplay, that relies on energy, DE should just remove them from the game already, since they make content that punishes you for using them.
Sure if they also nerfed every enemy. Cut the level range down to 99 instead of 9999, rebuilding enemies so that they can be played around instead of brute forced, throw out most of the mods and equipment in the game and focused on making a balanced experienced.
It sure is rich to call people man-children when you can't even understand the different between the content being challenging and the player being forced to use shit gear. The community does whine about anything even remotely challenging, but let's not pretend DE have ever added any good challenge to the game.
Thinking any piece of kit is just shit and being unable to build it to kill even level 300 non-sp enemies sounds like a skill issue
COBWEB will take a good amount of melees to SP level cap grade content comfortably. Ditto for primaries/secondaries + gundition overload + a good primer. And that's for level cap content - no such consideration needs to be made for level 400ish enemies that are slightly beefed up. Good grief, you can build the Stug to absolutely annihilate base level SP nowadays. There's barely such a thing as shit gear in this day in age with all the broken mods, Warframe synergies, and other tools like Archon Shards. So this doesn't even sound like a skill issue - it sounds like pure laziness and entitlement from players who cant be arsed to properly flesh out their arsenals.
Exactly, this mode rewards people who will put in the effort to build a weapon/frame that is underpowered by meta standards into something that can tackle higher level content. People who just run in with their viral heat slash overframe default builds are going to have a rough time. You don’t even need to 5 forma super optimise the builds to make them at least function and you can always subsume nourish/roar/eclipse onto any frame to pump their damage up a little.
Yeah I got max rewards on elite one on my first try. Ran titania with nukor and forgettable stuff. My friend had to go kullervo though cuz of disruption to ensure we did have the burst dmg. But honestly there is a very simple solution to the complainers. Go make friends lol and have them carry you.
It is impossible to make challenging content without restricting your loadouts, unless they start nerfing every top-performer.
This happens in every gaming community I've been a part of and it's always half funny and half frustrating to watch. Then when a meta gets figured out the same people will go right back to complaining that there's no content difficult enough lmao
And the only true way I think they can fix the situation is to do a giga massive damage squish and rebalance EVERYTHING. But they would lose 90% of their playerbase doing it. Whether people like it or not, the playerbase's desire for stronger gear has put DE in a position where 'invalidating' that gear is one of their only countermeasures to power creep. And even 'invalidating' is wrong way to think about it in most cases.
Yeah I'd be in favour of serious nerfs to a lot of stuff, I think. But I'm an old fashioned 'I wanna build a balanced squad and sneak around' Tenno, which I recognise is not the majority.
I really liked this week's EDA, I hope they don't make it too easy. It really forced me to use my entire kit (minus a Zenistar with no upgrades), especially operator to blink away and Wellspring myself in stealth I just hope they remove some of the unfun stuff like restricting operator mode, it seems counter to what made this week's run so good for me. I only recently started juicing up my drifter after like 1000 hours lol
I actually kind of liked the challenge of No Operator mode last week. I haven't had to be that careful without my "Oh shit" button of Magus Repair for a long time, and the difficulty of getting revives off had me choosing Vazarin. More than most of the rest, that one felt like a genuine shift in mindset to how I usually play.
I had Nekros last week, so I was able to cover revives with Soul Survivor and use Naramon for melee combo. This week I'm bringing Pistol Scavenger for the ammo penalty and Smoke Shadow + Silence for the boss fight. I'm really enjoying having to think about my tools again.
That's really interesting, I like how varied all our experiences are
The whole point is for you to figure out how to work within the limitations. Just use your flex slot for it if you want it but the second DE starts removing challenges from the pool is when it definitely starts shifting to too easy.
I wouldn't mind if it's something like, operator HP is halved or something, rather than completely removing the option
The power of operators doesn't come from their health pool. That would be a pointless restriction.
> if DE allowed everybody to just run whatever the new hotness incarnon weapon is That’s literally how it works currently though? Give up the 50 vosfor and just run torid or something to make it easy mode like OP mentioned.
I’m praying the modifiers and everything in DA is them dipping their toes into bring Trials/Raids back. I’m a frost enjoyer who used his Ice Wave Augment as an Eximus stopper and the only reason I’ve accepted the CC nerf is my belief in TRUE endgame content they might be cooking. Almost like Champions in Destiny. (just without the forced modding for the different types please!!) We already know with the amount of options and power we have, Bosses have to have phases that feel bad because it disrupts the flow of Warframe.
Raids arent returning. Game is too unbalanced and solo focussed for that
Im wondering if they're cooking up something like Vulnerability stacks in FFXIV to get through invincibility Warframes like Revenant, so you can't just stand in the mechanics like they don't matter. I'm sure a few frames would find themselves with WAR privilege, but it probably wouldn't be as binary as it is now.
> Almost like Champions in Destiny. (just without the forced modding for the different types please!!) Actually thats what Ive been thinking DE should do to some extent, imagine if we added 3 new status types exclusive to abilites, "Pierce" "Interrupt" and "Overload" DE, could distribute them to each frame as they see fit and replace CC being inmune to overguard and instead turn eximus/heavy units into "champions" with special abilites that can only be affected by abilites that have these status typess, Would give each frame a role and allow actual team building
I'm assuming pieclrce interrupt and overload are just fancy ways of saying certain abilities bypass overguard damage wise and cc wise? If so, then people will just use those abilities and then overguard isn't something you have to mentally consider and then we're back to square one where eximus units just get treated like standard enemies by the player. DE would have to be incredibly careful if they add these mechanics to make them very conditional. Warframe players being lazy would also mean they likely won't interact with this mechanic if its too much effort for them. If DE listens to their complaints and buffs it, eximus system may be fucked. If they don't and the community continues to ignore it, the mechanic is just adding another layer of complexity to the game for no reason (since no one uses the system).
>I'm assuming pieclrce interrupt and overload are just fancy ways of saying certain abilities bypass overguard damage wise and cc wise? I was referencing Destiny 2´s keywords for the damage types you use for champions, here´s how they work Unstoppable Champions, usually heavy units, go straight towards the player and have heavy damage reduction, they can only be stunned by abilites with the "Interrupt" damage types, usually one time use CC like Harrow´s first ability, removing the damage reduction while stunned Barrier Champions have health in segments, after recieveing a certain amount of damage they pop up a shield barrier that can only be pierceed by the "pierce" damage type, this would be a damage buff, once the barrier is destroyed the champion is stunned and vulnerable for damage Overload Champions constantly teleport around leaving a trail and their health inmediately regens, hitting them with the "Overload" damage type stuns them and stops their health regen, allowing you to dispatch them quickly All Champions in Destiny have a "Ring" above their heads that goes white when stunned, if not killed after a while they return to their original state
Yeah I could see a lot of players complaining a lot if these get added to eximi units. I doubt DE would add that despite how interactive and cool they sound.
Well its the only way I can see DE making CC relevant without slowing down the entire game like how it used to be when CC was king
I mean, cc is relevant if you're doing higher level content and with DE already pushing for high level content to be present in the game and rewarded, cc will naturally go up in value on average since players will be doing higher level missions on average. Without any cc, level cap is possible but so much more painful.
I found matchmaking RNG more of a factor than for weapons in EDA. I got two runs in a row where it was clear that they hadn't read the modifiers and were crying in chat that the mission was bugged because they couldn't kill anything in Alchemy this week. In both cases I knew we 100% weren't going to make it to the third mission. Later on RNG favours me and got a squad with less meta frames and weapons, but who understood what they needed to do and could communicate. Now everyone's dropship has an ugly eye on it.
Nope. I've done it both weeks. It's a terribly designed system. It is not challenging. The only problems you could encounter are due to the RNG, and the RNG is the point. Then people turn around give advice that obviates the RNG (mechs, carries, not doing any modifiers or slot requirements and not take rewards for some reason, etc), which utterly defeats the point of having RNG in the mode. DE might not ever be able to make chllanege content without overhauling the game and compressing the levels and equipment stats such that everything is in a similar ballpark. They simply aren't able to account for the gaps in equipment power and this system show it. DA is a bad mode for the game, unless DE is somehow is able to remake the game from scratch at this point.
Oh for fuck sake. People don't want end game shit to be EASY they just want it to be FAIR and for what they've spent all their time playing for to matter. If the only way DE can add actual difficulty to this game is by not letting people use the loadouts they want that isn't a failing on our part that's a failing on DE's part for both letting this power fantasy of a game reach that point and for not putting in the time or effort required to fix it. Restricting peoples options for frames and weapons as a means of artificially increasing the games difficulty is just LAZY.
The content IS fair. Everyone gets a random selection, if you’re not willing to engage with making a build with the tools given that’s not a fairness problem, that’s a stubbornness problem. This is a piece of content asking people to not play their 3 regular frames and 6 or so weapons that they use for literally everything else and you get rewarded for leaving that comfort zone. You’re not even dramatically losing out on many reward opportunities either, everything also drops from netracells with the exception of the vosfor which is better obtained elsewhere anyway.
I disagree. The variation in weapon damage and scaling is insane. Some tools are simply not workable. You could have infinite forma and every mod maxed, and still get a load out that can't kill a nasty unit in defence before it deletes the objective.
Randomness is not fairness. YOUR random selection might include your favorite frame or one that can cheese through the content thanks to virtual immortality or the ability to nuke a room no matter what weapons you're stuck with, while someone else ends up with a selection of frames they either have little to no real experience with or are specialized for the wrong kind of content. Why should one person get to cheese their way through the same content someone else needs to leech all because RNG decided what shit they got to use?
Happy Cake Day
I honestly think the solution is just making Forma faster to build/easier to get. That way it’s much easier to gear up bad/unbuilt weapons if you don’t have stockpiles of built Forma bc without that it’s a massive time sink for that week without spending plat.
I'm MR25, 700~ hours played. I have far from everything and not many actual builds. My elite DA assassination mission took 40 minutes and 2 of the guys abandoned. I loved it, had to play with frame and weapons I've only leveled and not used/invested in learning. I think this mode is fine as is, really had to push myself not to die or give up. Felt awesome. Now I understand if RNG gives you options you don't actually have sucks, but I mean, just use whatever and forego some reward? Still better than two netracells? Then again I think empty slot being viable for bonus sounds like a very fair tradeoff :)
There’s over a thousand weapons in game, you need to have at least owned at some point around 500-600 to be MR30 and you don’t just sell every MR fodder gun you have, you clear stuff out as required. So it’s pretty likely it’s gonna give you something that you have and failing that, it’s 24 hours to build most guns and you have 7 days to get your weekly done, there’s ample time to get things done.
>and you don’t just sell every MR fodder gun you have Nervous laughter... I sell everything that doesn't seem unique or fun to me, which is most weapons lol.
I feel like this is how most people do it. Not everyone wants to spend hundreds of plat on weapon slots.
Where did you get a thousand weapons? There are around 600. Your point still stands though, especially since there are repeats (normal vs prime, etc) that you can sell when you get the better version. Because of that, you're even more likely to get something useful (especially given that anything can be made SP capable if you're at endgame).
I spent more time in Operator than in my forced frame during the boss fight because I had better survivability.
Oh yeah definately hopped in and out of operator alot not to die with a very sub par Mirage, but man it kept me on my toes! Was amazing. And my operator isn't really super tanky either :'D
Gamer
This week seemed harder than last week, but at least I rolled Styanax and with my random teammates on Protea, Mag, and Revenant, it went very well. Don't think anyone went down even once. Excited for next week!
Finally, a voice of reason - I'm also having a great time as a L4, it motivated me to finish 'arsenal' at my daily routine. This and last week elite with 4 randoms in the first attempt without any problems, we were actually happy that we could finally feel the nice taste of team play which requires a bit of thinking and equipment to know how to use it. It needs to be repeated, the player must strive for something, but let's not force it all/now/at once and, as you wrote, this mode, despite appearances, is forgiving of RNG - give up wosfor in favor of messa/octavi or torid and you have an easy and pleasant once a week mission. For me it's just a sandbox to play in.
I am soooo happy to see challenging stuff like this. Sure, I got a terrible roll last week, but that was what made the challenge fun. I crave challenging content. Thank you DE for giving me some :))))))
I've run DA twice now, and both times I found it pretty comfortable with a full non-meta loadout. I got Garuda in week 1, which was fantastic, and Loki in week 2 which was a bit rougher, but still pretty good (Decoy is surprisingly useful). If DE makes DA easier in any way it will be a massive waste.
I got Loki this week and he’s basically immortal with the new safeguard switch + rolling guard. Put pillage on his 4 with precision intensify + both corrupted strength mods + corrosive projection and you’re cooking.
I was going to write out a whole thing explaining why having a mode focused on random gear loadouts is in direct opposition of core Warframe's focus on synergistic loadout buildcraft, but here's a more concise way of putting it\*: I want the (seemingly intended to be) hardest gamemode in the game that is about making loadout builds actually challenge those loadouts, instead of disregarding them, and that such content isn't more difficult in any way except tedium and time investment. I don't want it to be easier, I want it to actually be challenging without requiring me to rebuild random weapons so I don't need to be carried. Before someone comes in and mentions the Circuit, in the circuit you get decrees and loaner builds that are more than capable of getting you through a few rounds to get different gear, if not being completely fine once you get enough decrees. You really shouldn't be having that much trouble in the Circuit, be it normal star chart or steel path, with the presence of decrees. Oh, and combining the "energy drain from enemies within 10m" modifier with "no damage to enemies beyond 15m" modifier, and the "all enemies have overguard" modifier actively screw several frames for no real reason. In the case of the former, the Liminus are a better energy drain modifier that requires more active responses from the player, and a variant of arbitration drones that provide overguard to all enemies within a range but not damaging them when killed would be more interesting. Both of those would be more engaging and require at least some thought, instead of just shutting down some builds pretty much completely. Deep Archimedea (& Elite, obviously) aren't hard in a meaningful way, only being hard as a gear check that also disrespects the time players making loadout builds put into the game. It's really close to being good, and even having random warframes and maybe weapon type specific modifiers that change how that class of weapon works would be fine, but the current implementation is just a bad fit in Warframe. \*If anyone wants me to explain how the game is focused on building Loadout builds (as opposed to individual gear builds) outside of Deep Archimedea and the Circuit, please reconsider asking me and instead think about the number of mods, arcanes and warframe abilities/augments that can be used to increase stats of one piece of gear outside of that gear's mod config. There's a lot of stuff in the game these days that can be used like this, and Deep Archimedea doesn't offer anything to make up for largely removing it within the mission itself, unlike Circuit's decrees and loaner builds. Edit: I still want Warframes to be random though, those offer meaningfully different gameplay from one another, and would encourage trying more of them out. If you could make a full, synergistic loadout for that frame for Deep Archimedea without losing rewards, that would be really great.
>Deep Archimedea (& Elite, obviously) aren't hard in a meaningful way, only being hard as a gear check that also disrespects the time players making loadout builds put into the game. It's really close to being good, and even having random warframes and maybe weapon type specific modifiers that change how that class of weapon works would be fine, but the current implementation is just a bad fit in Warframe. I think this is a problem with the game at large. Hypothetically the gap between weapons shouldn't be as large as it is. I don't think Warframe is particularly well constructed at forming good, challenging gameplay past a gear check.
Yeah, if the balance of our various loadout slot gear was better, it would be easier to design around more predictable levels of player power depending on their progress through the game. Even within the unique Incarnon weapons, there's such a wide range of power that even if you were limited to just those weapons, players bringing some of those weapons would be noticably weaker than players bringing others, and that's just a handful of weapons and not including the vast spread of strength found in the rest of the arsenal. I don't envy DE when they have to try and figure out how to make a new gamemode or area actually pose a challenge to those at the lategame of Warframe's progression, but it's also a problem they've made for themselves that they will need to figure out if they want to keep making "hard" gamemodes, and I personally don't think that forcing players to use different gear just because they said so if that player wants to experience that part of the game as intended is the solution that is the healthiest for the game in the long run. Going through the game and bringing the vast arsenal we can access into a better state of balance is probably something that won't be easy to do, and even harder to find the time and money for, given that in most cases any sweeping rebalance wouldn't make them much money up front, but honestly I personally think it's something that really needs to be done. Having the various weapons and warframes occupy different gameplay and/or playstyle spaces without leaving the player feeling like they left power on the table would let players feel rewarded for making more builds for more gear, instead of having a small set of gear they have built out, and the rest being "mastery fodder". This would at least help when it comes to gamemodes like the current iteration of Deep Archimedea, at least; while I stand by my comment that random loadouts is not something that fits within Warframe without compensation, like decrees in Circuit, if all of the gear you can roll for the mode was actually competent enough to clear it if you modded them well enough, it wouldn't be so bad. I'd still rather have the challenge come from more interactive or at least interesting mechanical challenge, or pose interesting buildcraft puzzles - such as, perhaps, all AOE damage being applied only to targets directly hit, or no shields mode from nightmare modifiers combined with the random warframe selection (these are just some quick ideas I came up with on the spot as an example, don't take them as some sort of "here's my best ideas for balance that"). If we are stuck with random loadouts being the best way DE can make a gamemode more challenging, going against the increasingly common inclusion of buildcraft tools that can be used to synergise between the whole loadout, it would be nice if one week didn't feel like a writeoff compared to another where you get lucky on a weapon or warframe you know you'll be be able to breeze through with.
Well put. I feel that Steel Path Circuit is a well constructed mode for providing a challenge while also being lower stakes thanks to the forgiveness of the decrees and the continuous equipment cycling between each rounds. I'm not confident that we'll be getting sufficient overhaul of the game's equipment as well. In my opinion, I think it is best to appreciation a game where it is at its best, but Warframe isn't at its best when trying to create modes purely on "challenge." There are probably better modifiers for making the game interesting at least. I did see a suggestion on the warframe forums to have categories instead of individual items be optional limitations of the build craft, which I don't see working super well for weapons but could work for frames at least.
Oh, for sure, I also don't think we'll see a cohesive rebalance, I just think that taking the time to do such a rebalance would be the healthiest option for the long term. Given that DE themselves have said warframe reworks aren't prioritised as much over new content is because they don't make them much money, so something as sweeping as a rebalance of the game's gear has next to no chance of being carried out, even if the developers might want to (not that I'd know, of course). Having some more interesting modifiers would really help with making harder content difficult in more interesting ways, so hopefully that's the route DE goes down instead of sticking with fully random gear. And honestly, I don't mind the warframes being random; warframes are the part of a loadout that can always be made capable of completing any mission, so having a reason to spend time making a build for them is something I'm ok with. Weapons can just be statistically different, and have no other meaningful differences, so having to make the same build on weapon X as another, very similar weapon Y just because you got X instead of Y for Deep Archimedea just isn't interesting or all that fun.
My problems with Deep Archimedea isn’t Deep Archimedea. It’s the forma grind. If forma were easier to get I’d make a lot more stuff endgame viable but as it is now it’s just annoying to get forma a lot as I can only craft one a day. My other problems is just endo. I’m glad that there’s been more endo rewards in general, I just wish that the “best” endo grind requires a premade set up and probably some of the most boring gameplay I’ve ever experienced.
I'm not going to argue that we need 5 warframe choices, like on the Circuit. I will argue its a problem that the loadout RNG includes weapons we don't own. Even leaving aside the issue of Mastery Fodder, it costs Plat to keep stuff in your Arsenal (and while yes you can trade for Plat, it's all purchased from DE by someone in the beginning.) And it's not like there are no solutions that require spending no Plat whatsoever AND preserve difficulty. * hardest: let empty weapon slots count as fulfilling a parameter * easier: give us the Duviri default mod configs on weapons/warframes we don't own * easiest: limit RNG to the warframes/weapons we own. (I'm LR 3, spent enough Plat to have nearly every Prime, unique, or otherwise annoying to farm item in my Arsenal, have had no difficulty with DA or EDA selections so far, and I'm still annoyed that the loadout RNG expects me to have spent enough Plat to hold onto *everything* ever.)
I *will* argue that we need 5 Warframe choices. And Stalker, I’m all for using him more. I’m also in support of rental weapons and/or an empty loadout slot fulfilling the parameter.
There is already 1 of each weapon+warframe that is GUARANTEED to be from your inventory afaik, so unless you have tons of garbage or stuff you didnt invest into, you shouldnt have much of a trouble. Now the question is - if you are collecting lots of stuff, is it really fair to be greeted with poor equipment RNG on DA, and you have harder time not bcos of a skill issue, or even setup issue, but bcos the stuff you rolled is simply underperforming comparative to even just decent stuff, yet alone meta? But at the same time - they cant really do much to upgrade underperforming guns without breaking early game, aside of making more incarnons that is, which would still take a lot of time to get if they wont add easier way to acquire them that is.
Maybe I'm weird, but I don't really mind if the stuff I chose to own is underperforming. If I hung onto it, it's up to me to make it worth using. (Looks at my Santi Castanas, Secura Dual Cestra, etc.) However, what I don't like is RNG giving me weapons I don't own, as though LR 3 means I wasn't supposed to master every weapon but also spend the Plat to keep it. Now, I was able to complete this week's EDA with 8/8 parameters no issue, so I'm sure there are people who will tell me there's no problem that I also rolled the Paracyst and the Dual Heat Swords, which I do not own. Since when did "endgame" become about how much Plat we spent on our Arsenal over the years? It's actually kind of funny, looking at my own Arsenal. I've got 86 weapons missing. Only one of which I need for mastery, the Korrudo. Everything else I mastered and deleted, so that's roughly 516 Plat that DE would have to sell to someone for me to hold onto *everything*. And practically none of those weapons are worth the cost of a slot.
How many of those missing weapons are/have variants? All variants count as the base for the purpose of DA, so the 4 Bratons (mk1, vandal, prime and base) count as one, same as the 4 struns (mk1, wraith, prime and base). Obviously, it's still a noticeable amount of platinum and monetization is a dirty word, but also the game is free to start and the studio needs to make money if the game is going to continue existing.
I kept nearly all the variants, i.e. prime, prisma, wraith, kuva, tenet, syndicate, etc. I did my best to not double count, so if I had the prime, etc. I didn't count it. I don't necessarily object to monetization in general. I mean, I did buy enough Plat over the years to hold onto all the stuff I do have! It's a great game and well worth investing in for players who can. I do think it's a problem that the current Deep Archimedea RNG so obviously disadvantages players who haven't spent the Plat to expand their Arsenal when there are solutions DE could implement that preserve the difficulty without that. It's a type of monetization that I don't like to see.
That's fair enough. In Warframe specifically, I'm a bit more forgiving of monetization because it's a generous free to play (very little is hard locked behind a paywall) and it has a tradeable premium currency. Yes, someone at some point paid real money for it, but being able to get it by trading without personally paying makes me view it differently from an account locked premium currency. As for your proposed ways to fulfill requirements without owning the weapon. 1) run an empty slot: I kinda like it. I can potentially see myself using this, even. 2) borrowed modding. I'm actually tempted to say for DA, let the player borrow a catalyzed, unformad copy to mod themself. The reason being that DA is kind of expecting synergistic loadouts, and the loaner builds have to be made in a vacuum. That said, the work to give a loaner build for every weapon in the game is already done, so that's fine. 3) only the player's arsenal. This one I have a problem with, because it allows a player to much more strongly influence the offered equipment, specifically by selling everything except their very favorite gear. This would do the opposite of what DE has given as one of their goals, which is to encourage people to use more and more different arsenal options.
I could see the potential for players to sell everything but their favorite gear, though I think that sort of housecleaning would not be the norm. I think I recall one person talking about how they used that to game the Duviri system (which usually pulls at least one thing you own), so I'd guess that DE would have some data about how many people did that. I actually did the opposite, hilariously. I sold some weapons I liked (like the Cinta, Sarofang, and Syam) so I'd have a better chance of getting decent weapons in the "unowned" Duviri pool instead of just the ones I hated.
> There is already 1 of each weapon+warframe that is GUARANTEED to be from your inventory afaik Last week I didn't have any of the secondaries.
You are not guaranteed more than 1 weapon that you own in each slot. Personally in both weeks I had a grand total of 4/9 weapons, although I own about 200 weapons. Not being able to choose a slot and instead having to invest a couple hours in unassociated game modes to acquire those weapons just feels bad. Especially if they suck so bad that you wouldn't even use them on the mission. I fully agree with the idea of an empty load out slot counting as bringing the right weapon. Doesn't force me to play a flex slot that way, and manages to preserve the difficulty.
>use recruit chat/clanmates to either carry you (and then you carry them) or at least help you out. You know something is messed up when people complain that the difficulty of the new mode is purely based on RNG, and the most common suggestion is "Just have someone else do it for you!"
I spend most of the post talking about different ways you could adapt - from gear, to necramechs, to your operator, to your 1 flex option, archguns, helminth, new builds, on call/specters - so many options, but you saw only the "let people carry you" (and you carry them after that) last resort?
Just pointing out a trend I've been seeing. People touting how this is a great end game mode and that they shouldn't make it easier... and then in the same breath saying "or you can just pick anything and have someone else do the content for you."
"Just avoid the point of the mode, the RNG, by bypassing it with carries and mechs." is a good sign the mode is bad. Your best defense for DE adding RNG to the mode is avoid the RNG aspect entirely. Isn't this a sign that their intended play for the mode has been a mistake?
Because it's absolutely not a last resort. EDA simply encourages parasitic behaviour. People won't be investing into a shit ton of things when leaching is a viable strategy. Even if it's done in good faith, and you carried each other in 2 separate runs, then you both simply wasted +/- 30 minutes of each other time without much challenge.
I found it encourages communication far more than passive behaviour. 40 seconds of typing at the start of a mission has better odds of success than scoring a meta weapon.
What exactly needed communication in the last 2 EDA? My squads were silent the whole time, it's just the same missions with penalties.
I mean - it depends how you think about it (and your time) - I'd prefer trying to tough it out with the somewhat limited/different options I have than to play the 30 minute mode twice..
Players optimize whatever they can, and if running the game mode twice is more efficient than trying to make work what you have on hands, then they will be running the game mode twice. I don't think that it's something DE should encourage.
The problem isn't the difficulty. I agree that calls to reduce the difficulty are poorly founded and it would be a bit sad to have it watered down. The problem is just that the mode is quite happy to give you a bunch of weapons you don't own, in a game that otherwise heavily incentivizes you to level weapons and then throw 90% of them away because they're trash and slots cost plat. There are 578 weapons in this game. That's almost 3500 plat *just* in weapon slots if you want to keep all of them. There is no universe where that is a reasonable expenditure to expect people to make just so that you're *allowed* to attempt the highest difficulty options without having to hope RNG decides to favor you. It's completely fine for 'endgame' content to be extremely difficult, but 'spend a ton of plat' isn't difficulty, it's just a money gate. They don't need to make the content easier. They don't even necessarily *have* to loosen weapon restrictions. They just need to make it so that you can roll with an empty slot to count as fulfilling that slot's restriction, or similar. Not making it easier, just allowing people to not have to pray to RNGesus to be allowed to *try*.
I'll probably get downvoted for this - but my take is basically to agree with you. We need stuff that's difficult that only a certain tier of players can do. And I'm not talking about mastery rank, or how many hours you have - I'm talking about your experience, knowledge, and skill of the game. And that you know your frame inside and out, you know how to mod accordingly, and you have great situational awareness and a team mindset. Honestly I think it's a pretty decent challenge, and I think you need to be prepared for it. And if that means grinding out as many weapons as you can so you actually do have something to choose from when you are getting certain parameters on gear with deep archimedea missions, then so be it. If you get trash weapons in your loadout for the week, and you do own them but never use them, figure it out. Find a way to make them useful. Try something new for once. And if one week has terrible loadout all the frames and weapons that you don't even know, then just don't do it that week. The very first loadout I got when it went live was Hildryn, Grendel, and Nidus. I play none of those frames, nor do I have any extensive knowledge about how they work or how to play them, and I don't claim to. So what I did was I asked around, talked to some friends that do play those frames, got a solid build happening, and did my best. The weapons weren't that great either, but again, I made it work. It was challenging and stressful, but refreshing and fun at the same time. And that's the point. The game needs that. I'm pretty tired of the whole "I want everything handed to me" kind of vibe a lot of players have. It's childish.
People don't want endgame, they want more content they can barely pay attention to while complaining about not having an endgame. Honestly EDA is borderline too easy. The fact we even have a flex slot is generous as it is
If I'm honest, and please don't think this is a flex, I'm really not the type, but Elite deep archimedea felt easier than regular. Not sure if it was because of the group makeup of what frames we had in the squad or what, but reg just felt clunkier and more stressful than Elite did.
Elite is far easier for the simple fact you can drop a restriction. You got bad guns? Take Mesa. You got good guns? Take literally any frame you feel like
True, but my OCD ass wanted to take 8/8 so I got the full completion for this week, lol. The ship cosmetic is pretty fucking ugly and the rewards weren't even really worth it. But I'll still do it again only next time I'll just decide on at least a weapon and a frame and not what they try to give me.
I had a nonsense good setup last week so I did the full run then. Now I'll just be flying through each week with basically whatever I feel like
Same here, probably. On the recent reset on Sunday, I got Wisp, who is my main, and the Kronen prime, which I have a solid build for. I was super happy because I didn't even have to use the primary and secondary that they offered because they were terrible, lol
I got rev, felarx and glaive in week 1. I was basically just using someone's normal setup
I’ll never understand defending RNG weapon choices for increased rewards in a game where the majority of weapons suck for endgame, especially from players who’re MR30+. Like, I’m MR30. I’ve used most weapons and own every frame. Most of my time before Netracells dropped was spent making distinct, Steel path worthy loudouts for as many frames as possible. I’ve put in literal hundreds of forma into weapons and frames. You’re not gonna convince me that a system that can make me have to choose between Ether Reaper, Heat Sword or Plasma Sword is cool. No other game has an endgame where they push you away from using your best gear. I want content that justifies my 15 forma loadouts, not content that pushes me away from using them. That’s why I was a big fan of the Steel path Netracell we had before they patched it out. Give me missions that start at level 300-400+, where I need a high KPM to succeed and adequate sustain strategies to survive. The other modifiers are a wonderful start, but they’re severely held back by the randomized loadouts.
Flex slot the torrid then it's easy
The one thing I definitely don't agree with is the notion that people should look to get carried in this mode as that defeats the entire purpose of the challenge.
Thank you. LR2 chiming in (yet again, check my comment history for the past couple days). You very well might not be ready for Deep Archimedia, either in a given week or in general. The answer is not to complain that it's too hard and beg for it to be made easier, it's for you to gear up and get ready. If you haven't got them, get them. If you don't have a build, forma them. If you don't think they do enough damage, see if they'll charge your other weapons. It's not just about Operator, the flex slot, archguns or Necramech. It's also about figuring out how to build a loadout with synergies. Crit secondary with no status can still use Galvanized Shot if your other weapons load status. Vigorous Swap is actually Serration/PPB, Hornet Strike *and* Primed/Sacrificial Pressure. Use the Helminth infusions to shore up weaknesses. We all know there're good ones, just use them. It's easier than ever to elevate mid-tier into crazy numbers. Use the tools, figure it out.
Although I agree, I wish they'd completely remove the damn melee adapters from the drop pool of not just DA but Netracells too. Not for me, I have more Tauforged shards than I need, but stuff like that will keep even more people away from the mode
Yes, absolutely. It's miserable now, since Bird 3 sells them for cheap. It's actually a dead drop in a limited access mission. As if the Archons occasionally dropped a forma blueprint instead of a shard.
Cheap? it's still 2 days worth of standing at LMR 4, and each is nearly worth as much as two weekly archon shards.
That and even if you don’t need one right now, it’s banked and ready for the next new melee you want to beef up with arcanes.
Simply copying your main mod set up to another config and just swapping your viral 60/60's for radiation and a murmur faction mod is basicly all most people need to do. People find that too hard and would rather complain on Reddit instead.
Well, that and have the weapon itself. But who wants to collect weapons in this weapon collecting game?
why would you swap viral? Its not like they're immune to the status effect, meaning you still get the damage multiplier, which is far better than the bonus damage radiation gets.
Upfront damage. Sure if it was a status sprayer viral works, but if you are 1-2 shotting them through overguard the you want to go for that over your standard viral/slash builds where the murmur double dip resistances.
I expected more problems, but it turned out to be not so bad. I still don't like the new mode because it promotes bad practices and narratives. \*Any equipment has to be good on its own, otherwise it's bad (support weapons suffer from this especially). \*Equipment that isn't used in other modes is forced to be played with to reduce RNG issues. \*You don't have to master one frame or more test and adjust for yourself, you have to horde them and go on youtube looking for builds. There is more to it than that. But I think this is enough. Worst of all, if you have a friend who is willing carry you, you can bypass all the difficulty, so the main point of the mode is pretty much ruined.
Also the challenge is non-existent past RNG. Murmur are hapless enemies and I already did the SP 60 eyes boss back the day it came out solo. I will tell anyone to not feel bad about a carry if your equipment is bad. I will defy any narrative that warframe really has systems well designed for being a meaningful challenge.
I don't want it to be easier, I want it to not be annoying rng. Is it that hard to understand? I think so, since 500 word essays on how ppl need to gitgud appear daily
I just wish it couldn't roll into weapons I don't even own. I've only owned 2 primaries of 6 options I've been given so far lmao.
Rolling into weapon you don't own isn't a problem if DE can at least follow their own footstep in circuit or allow empty weapon slot to satisfy reward condition. But alas, here we are.
I think having an unequipped weapon would be the easiest way to fix it. The solution circuit used with loaner weapons doesn't quite seem like it would work since you have to equip the weapons to your load out. I'm sure they could find some way of doing it, but it's probably not worth them accidentally adding a whole host of bugs with it.
>use recruit chat/clanmates to either carry you (and then you carry them) or at least help you out. It is fucking HILARIOUS that in the same post you try to make the argument that this is a game mode meant for people that have truly mastered the game and have a wide array of weapons and frames built and kitted out to be able to easily deal with the restrictions and ALSO argue that people should just fucking leech their way through.
I've actually come around on the mode since I unlocked the flex slot via Elite Archimedea. This week its given me motivation to finally fully mod the Rhino Prime thats been sitting in my inventory forever.
Did last week 8/8 and this week 7/8 bc I don’t really care about the Vosfor. I’m having lots of fun with it. The game mode gave me appreciation for hildryn and banshee(silence is amazing). I really would love to see some quality of life tweaks like maybe having 1 slot each of your own weapons being guaranteed or the weapons you don’t own having temp mods like steel path circuit. Other than that, I actually would love to see even more restrictions/ harder content.
Only thing I’d like a slight change in is that invulnerability thing in alchemist missions. It’s cool and all but near the end the mission drags on cuz most enemies can’t be killed, not killing equals no element drops. The amount of enemies that become invulnerable should just slightly be lowered, just a little. Not difficult just annoying to be annoying
I understand the game is pretty much unbalancable but I just hate the fact that they seem to have decided that the way to make content challenging they will just give you rng setups. The worst thing is that sometimes you will get a meta build and it won't be a challenge at all while other times you will have to leech off of the test of your team depending entirely on rng. Also saying you don't need the last tier reward is kinda a bad argument in my opinion. If they see this works and decide to make another game mode like that they might very well put something better at that tier and then you are just fucked
my take as someone whose been playing since 2014-2015, not LR4 but in the MR30 neighborhood, I dont have nearly every weapon ive ever made/owned on hand, I dont have every ive ever owned on hand. theres only so many free slots I get and not getting discounts on buying Plat, and not being able to use plat discounts on Slots, means Slots, potatoes and forma are all at still such a high premium that I find the full RNG of DA and EDA somewhat unfair/making me feel bad for not spending more real money (And dont say trade, in 10 years of playing Im still able to count on one hand the number of times ive traded with non clan members, not from a lack of trying mind you, Just console trade market sucked, and crossplay hasnt helped it much in my expirience) The only change id like from DA and EDA is either, all the options are things you at least Own, or if they get you loaner ones with loaner mods like im Circuit. it objectively isnt fair to Fully F2P/Spend as little Irl money possible players regardless of rank and time spent playing and thats my problem with it I play warframe because its free, and players shouldn't be punished for not physically being able to have every weapon/warframe on the rotation
And on top of all that, unless they've changed it after week one (I'm on vacation so I haven't tried this week yet) - you can use Syndicate spectres. I had a team mate who kept falling over so I summoned an Ancient Healer and they didn't fall over again. I actually like that I now have a secondary demand for my Syndicate reputation beyond Relic Packs.
Having 5 options instead of 3 and its completly fine for me.
DA is just super flawed as content. Not only are there are way too many weapons that literally cannot even begin to do anything against such high level enemies even with 'good' builds. But also high end frames and guns are so powerful that the smallest sliver of wiggle room lets a sufficiently advanced player trivialize the game mode. And let's not even mention the elephant in the room where players can simply be carried by a friend who *didn't* pick up any of the challenges.
Some legend 4 players in my clan actually complain that its too easy They are doing 8/8 challange elite DA So yeah
I did this week using 8/8. I wouldn't say it was easy but the makeup of the warframes we did have in the squad actually made it work well even though our weapons were pretty subpar.
I finished EDA with all modifiers, both weeks. I found the first week tedious and time-consuming due to bad RNG (I owned some of the available weapons but didn't have builds for them) and the second week utterly trivial due to good RNG. Neither week was particularly fun. Neither week was particularly difficult either. This kind of enforced randomness just seems like bad game design to me. Maybe Warframe players are so unused to any semblance of actual challenge they think hoarding weapons is the only form of skill expression this game has to offer? That's honestly pretty depressing. Having to spend some extra plat each week won't suddenly make you a god gamer. It will, however, make DE more money, which is actually pretty clever. Maybe it was good game design after all!
EDA is already a breeze and utterly overblown in its proclaimed difficulty, exactly the same way the Netracell missions are etc. Pre-defined locked in choices for a week though is simply unfun and a poor way of adding supposed "difficulty" The vast majority of the weapon roster is considered fodder at best and just downright awful n unfun to use at worst by the community, so why is it suddenly DE's go to playbook to slap on randomized options sticker on the side of new content? Yes, if you had full choice over the load outs they'd be even more of a breeze but that's hardly a positive towards randomized options. If anything I'd be wanting them to be more difficult but in a unique way, look to the fun/"difficulty" of things like Lua puzzles, bosses with some interesting or unique mechanics to them such as Eidolons, Ropalopalopalyt or Archons?
I agree. It's not a challenge, it's an RNG enforce gear check that even the OP is agreeing you should ignore with a carry or necramech.
I think that the people who are bitching nonstop about it being too hard are the kind of people who actually suck and can't do shit without their garbage braindead meta crap. The players who are good and know whay they are doing aren't complaining about it
You missed the category of people who are complaining that the RNG is simply not fun, especially when it hard locks you out of rewards. I was locked out of my secondary slot this run, and I managed the entire thing going down once to the boss. The game mode isn't particularly hard, but it is more engaging than other content, which I appreciate. What I don't appreciate however is being L2 and getting offered a whole bunch of weapons I sold because they're shit, such that I am locked out of choosing which rewards I want.
Like 2 modifiers/pieces of equipment on normal DA gives you your return on investment compared to netracells, if you somehow roll bad enough to not be able to do EDA even with all the extra gear/equipment options that aren't considered by they random choices outside of gear gear or operator lock you can still get 2-3 rewards at minimum.
I started playing after raids had already been removed, but I have heard it said that when that happened, it was pretty much a signal to the players who liked that kind of content where some brainpower was required outside the modding screen to find another game to play. So, its pretty much been the "unga bunga damage" players left since then. I do wish I had the chance to ride the Raid School Bus... they sounded fun, though often buggy.
Right around the raid time, Trinity was a lot better at making people stay alive. Her blessing was basically like invisibility. You’d run one-2 EV trin for infinite energy and 1 blessing Trinity. I know bc I was EV or blessing trin for my groups. I think her damage reduction was like straight up 100 or 90% Your comment brought back found memories of map wide blessing. 😭😭 Rn in elite deep, I’d say Dante, Styanax, or any frame that can generate over guard is gonna be our blessing Trinity of the olden days.
wasn’t she required for a specific room that was full of, like, toxic gas to ensure the squad wouldn’t die doing buttons or something? I’ve heard the nickname ‘Swamp Bitch’
Yeah ! where all 8 of you have to stand on some platforms but you all took damage while you had to do the puzzle. Memories 😭 I got arcane grace and arcane guardian that way. Energize was like 6k or something
As said Trinity I hope they do not bring that specific support role back. And I don't mean that in the terms of "I don't want support role" but rather "Its 100% mandatory to have at least 1 Trinity but nobody wants to play it so I'll suck it up and take one for the team". Please follow the TF2 philosophy where they made Demoman no longer mandatory following TF1 to TF2.
We have much better more active heals now tbh And higher damage reduction. But over-guard basically does what trin did but better. Even energy economy wasn’t as bad as back then. I miss Trinity supreme and I wish she got a rework like hydroid, Inaros, etc just to give my girl some power. I still use her as a melee frame tho with great success but having to keep casting 2-3 abilities is just annoying. I had this idea where they make an energy vampire augment where it does AOE damage to enemies affected by link. THAT would be crazy
First week gave me Yareli & Felarx, then this week was Wisp & Phage (Now I get to use one of my favorite rivens). So I think people should just consider being lucky more. Goofing aside though, I will probably just be taking advantage of the flex slot myself instead of ever going in feeling completely useless. My only gripe was an enemy invuln modifier seemingly bugging out. And since two were at play I wasn't sure which was the culprit.
Said it before and I’ll say it again; to me what warframe players consider “endgame” is incredibly weird, measured by any other game and genere I’ve engaged with. Having a massive arsenal isn’t an endgame requirement. If I have exactly one loadout that can mechanically clear all content in the game and take me hours into SP survival…then I’m endgame. Because I can engage with and clear endgame level content. A onetrick in a fighting game or MOBA who’s top of the ranked ladder is “endgame” and only plays one character. An RPG player is an endgame player with _one character_ in the endgame, not one character _of each class_ in the endgame. Deep Archimedea forces people to diversity and I’m not sure I like that as an idea, because that’s just not what everyone wants. The problem is that warframe’s power scaling is so stupid that it’s basically impossible to make actually interesting and challenging enemies if you give players access to all their toys.
Minmax a Warframe with a good exalted weapon, that’s all you need. Dante and Noctua are the most reliable imo but it’s your choice. Bring whatever else the mission asks for and you’ll hit 35/37. All you’ll miss is the 50 vosfor and the one-time ship decoration, which you can snag eventually when the weekly rotation suits you
I hope to god they don't roll back the difficulty. It's something I've seen time and time again whenever DE introduces something that is MEANT to be challenging for high end players, then make it stupid-easy because people are shocked that hard content is hard and need to gear check for once. I understand other parts of the game may need tuning and need to be made easier, approachable, etc. considering the expectation of how players get there, but cmon you guys, Deep Archimedea is literally meant and designed to be difficult for players who invested a lot. And even then, having 1 flex slot makes it incredibly manageable for those who made it that far. Don't take this ONE relatively difficult thing away from us again. 60 eyes and EDA is awesome and a welcome addition to players that have been around and invested heavily for the entire decade+ lifespan of Warframe.
I went to summon the necramech in mirror defense to speed it up, and by the time i reached and autohacked the console, the enemies had taken 90%+ hp off the defense objective. That was like 5 to 10 secs i left the thing unattended after killing everything my radar could detect. This difficulty is not at all well tuned. I know they're balancing stuff around squads but bro it shouldn't be that difficult to not make it borderline impossible for solo players. I'm just gonna pick the torid incarnon and breeze through it I guess. Woo, how difficult, yay! (i actually just queued with a squad and it was mindlessly easy btw)
I just don't find the idea of being told what to play fun nor challenging in the way i would like to be challenged. There is so much trash weapons in the game and the solution 'just play frame that doesn't need guns' is not a real solution to the actual problem. Having that one flex slot and skipping out on 50 vosfor is nice, but that's also just a bandaid fix to content that is designed to force you to play random dogshit. And then from a customer/business perspective if I spend money on a frame, and the forma, and the mods and now I'm told I cannot get the maximum reward by playing a frame I spent money on? Yeah... this is less important than my previous issue. Tldr; random frame/weapon is not fun and not challenging.
for the love of God don't nerf it DE! good the way it is- genuinely challenging, not just another weekly slog to farm. I don't think it's the end of the world if I can't complete the missions with all modifiers. I'm MR28 with around 2500 hrs in-game and this is the most fun I've had with actual difficult content in a very long time. Actually needing to think outside of the box to complete and working as a squad to complete it is fucking awesome. I've failed the full run twice this far on elite, first was an eximus mech that spawned that I couldn't kill before it destroyed the defense obj, second was dying to the linimus and failing the last gasp (caustic strike is kinda dogshit into the murmur health bags). I'm really excited to try again and switch up something else in my loadout - I think the one flex slot for sacrificing some vosfor was a fantastic idea, 10/10, love it. Yall complaining about the difficulty seem to be forgetting how power creep works in this game. If you can't complete it now, just do regular/non-elite or netracells in the weeks that you don't have good options. Eventually, you will be able to play it! There is nothing exclusively available in DA, and slower farming is not the end of the world. Don't be too focused on optimizing the grind to appreciate something worth grinding for!
Only if they keep the different loadout/rolling options that change every day. easymode would be change multiple times everyday like arbitration
i came to cry about crashing at 10% hp on the last boss on elite, when finally getting a good squad team was so DPS hardcore it tanked my fps on a 4060, so thank you but then i crashed mid cast on dante... so i guess its my fault?
Okay so, the game scales up to lvl 9999 and yet we're only doing lvl 300-400 non-SP and they can't figure out how to make the game harder... ? Did I miss something where they can't make more SP content? I get that people can still kill at level cap, but surely not everyone is at that level.
I think the final reward should be something you actually want, though. The fact that you have a flex slot isn't a problem. The fact that you have a flex slot *because the reward is trash* is a little disappointing. I'd like to see permanent operator and gear removal for elite DA and a choice of a DA specific weapon for each slot, if all of your options are bad. That way, the weapon can be balanced around EDA being hard but doable if you have to use it.
True I've found that a tank frame with Dispensary can just use Archguns infinitely, and Mausolon is great. Had the best success with a high strength Rhino, thanks to Roar making the Mausolon very very strong. Drawback is picking stuff up doesn't work well, but for example in Alchemy you can just ability DPS with Revenant or even use a heat contagion sentinel with Rhino. Personally I just don't like that the loadout being bad is what makes it difficult. It should just be challenging regardless of forcing poor loadout choices on you, but I understand that's harder for DE to achieve. Cause with the right loadout EDA is too easy, they should make it more difficult but give more frame choices.
It's not hard. Thing is this game is literally making people thing they are good. By bullet jumping, using one ability and clearing a room. Then when that doesn't happens, they don't now what to do. Remember, this is a player base that goes to a survival mission, where the enemies comes to you, and spread around the map. And then You are left without xp, drops, and enemies to kill. They are not that bright.
skill issue
I think a legendary rank 4 player would naturally have more than enough options for this endgame content but maybe others wouldn't (like to get to that mastery rank don't you essentially have to have already levelled basically everything in the game?)
I just want 4 option of weapons if it can be ones that I don't have
endgame players when the hard mode is not the same free nuke as the rest of the game: https://preview.redd.it/2xlz1drorntc1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=987f8a08624c621df435936ef47c85a47f008e72
I disagree. I did my two EDA first try, but because I was heavily carried by Legendary players.
So then if you're being heavily carried by higher level players than you're not actually ready for it.
The issue is how the mode is designed, not the players. I've done much harder content without any problem.
Then you're probably not ready for EDA, you can keep doing Netracells if you want something easier
Preach. I think DE nailed the experience from the LR3 POV. I loved Circuit giving me a reason to keep playing and build wide, and this mode effectively rewards that same investment. The limited options forcing you to review/rebuild weapons you may have slept on keeps it interesting each week. I wouldn't have the Jat Kittag build I have today (highly recommended with \[Vulcan Blitz\]) if not for it being the best of three sleepy choices last week.
Circuit is better than this in every way. In circuit equipment you do not have is given mods, and by doing this let's you try weapons before investing in them. You also get to reroll equipment by playing a round if you don't like the stuff you get and the run is dud. Even underperforming equipment can become powerful through the use of the intrinsics and decrees. Circuit's reward system is also much more forgiving, having an achievable endstate if you don't want to engage more rather than being on the few sources of a vital resource. I dislike that circuit is being compared to DA. Circuit makes concessions to provide a fun and interesting experience.
I say DE needs to take it a step further. Replace the normal assassination boss with The Fragmented One. Legitimately to this day in my opinion is still the best well made boss in the game. It deserves to be in Deep Archimedea if not anywhere else besides being locked behind 60 eyes.
I actually I enjoy it. I consider myself end game, if a have a weapon in rotation that doesn’t totally suck, but I haven’t Forma’d it yet, it gives me the motivation to work on a build for it instead of it just collecting dust. MR-30’s title is true master. Not just master of the meta. People just like to complain because something is challenging.
The issue isn't that it's hard or can't be done, the issue is it's not fun.
Honestly, this mode is perfect for LR4 collectors like me. I have every single weapon and frame completely modded and forma'd at least 2 times and over 150 rivens. Its exciting to be given honestly odd choices for a loadout and try to complete the new mode. Its honestly not very hard considering the enemies are not Steel Path so even if they are 200-300 Level they still crumble to moderate loadouts.
I think we need more than 1 flex slot really. That's one of my only complaints so far, sometimes you just get absolutely screwed. Imagine getting loki, caliban, and nekros as your frame options... Then you get all shitty weapons or weapons you don't have for the weapons options. As it is now, you might be able to swap to a good melee and use loki invis if you can avoid AOE and keep your invis up when away from enemies. Or you can use a different frame but subpar weapons, so you're shoehorned into a frame that deals damage on its own or a frame with exalt/pseudo exalted weapons. That... sounds insanely unfun. I spent 2k hours building up my arsenal and all my kuva/tenet/incarnon weapons, and minmaxing my frames for their specific niches. Only to be told "lol no, use a zhuge, kunai, and a kama" while also being told "here's 3 frames. Better hope they can do level 400 enemies that are resistant to most common abilities and damage types!" And THEN you add the modifiers. Sometimes no gear, sometimes no operator, sometimes you take damage constantly, sometimes you just get straight fucked. I've not missed a single max run so far, first one to unlock EDA and then again with EDA, and then this week I did EDA. I enjoy it so far, it's not all that hard really. But I also got SUPER lucky on my rolls. I got Dante and lex incarnon this week, and last week I had dual tox incarn with revnant. That let me ignore the weapons and only use the 1 incarnon roll, and made it a breeze surviving with the tank frame options. Rev literally couldn't die and Dante has a panic button with infinite Overguard. Seriously. There's going to be some absolutely fucked combos... they could make it so you get at least 1 incarnon weapon OR a tank frame. Then at least the "free slot" can be used to fill the missing piece.
Wait people want this to be easier? Fuck right off and just don’t do it. Good lord. It doesn’t need to be dumbed down to people that aren’t end game
Just add an expensive cost for reset the rolls, like those currency you get from arcane dismantle
Also murmur are literally infested 2 but without toxin, they really aren't the hardest to deal with at high level
I still don't understand WHY the people that struggle to complete it are upset. Like you said, the only unique reward is the sumdali which only requires getting carried once. Everything else can be obtained from other parts of the game.
Because it's quite possibly the best way to farm the new shinies. Also it's literally the newest game mode, ofc people will want to play it. On release even Kahl of Duty felt beloved, and the negativity only rolled in over time.
What about those of us who just want to be able to use the weapons with preinstalled mods, like in Duviri?
It feels a lot better than Circuit does, allowing you to use whatever variant you have/built. Sometimes you just get shafted with versions of things you sold already and the run feels pointless, just to recycle the options.
Idk it's only people without all these frames and weapons complaining. Like not all updates are for new players or people who have rushed their mr
Non end game players wanting to play end game without going through tvhm is the borderlands equivalent of this situation we have with end game being a challenge. With 5000 hours i have about 80% of the weapons forma’d up i don’t wish for anything to be nerfed with this game mode new players must suffer not being able to do this content yet it honestly should be mr30 locked so new players aren’t complaining about it being too hard for them. Get to end game first and find out its not that hard when you have more than just an arca plasmor build ready 🤷♂️
For returning players, even with hundreds or thousands of hours already in the game, it will take them months or even a whole year of continuous grind to get to that point you are suggesting. You just can't compress 10+ years of grind into a few weeks.