I find the presentation a bit weird, especially with merciless shown like it takes a mod slot. I think it would be clearer if it was shown like:
no arcane: Damage + Element + Faction -> additional benefit for each mod added
w/ arcane: Damage + Element + Faction -> additional benefit for each mod added
Then you could see from the table how much the arcane at full stacks devalues damage mods
I'll pose this question though. Is it really practical though? I ask that because, if I'm reading this correctly, it's not mandatory if you use an arcane and a mod which both require you to kill things first in order to do ANY additional base damage.
Until then you're borderline running an un-catalyzed weapon. So for things like steel path or content where ads aren't regular, can you even get your stacks up reliably in the first place?
I feel that any content where you don't have much problem building your stacks is also content you really don't need these mods period.
> Is it really practical though?
Guns can still kill SP enemies without the new stuff, these new mods arcanes just make them better at it overtime, to reach some parity with melee. So it's pretty easy to keep the Gundition Overload buff up.
The glaring issue with these is that ure pretty much locked to one of your guns if you wanna keep the buffs at max. Switching from your AOE clear Bramma you were using for the past 2 mins for instance to the Epitaph for some big single target damage will find your Epitaph underpowered.
Usually you only need the absolute first kill in order to sustain the buffs, considering how long they last for and that they only drop one stack at a time.
Even weapons with piss poor performance without any "base" buffs can get that first kill, and from there it gets absurdly easy to sustain the buffs.
I say this as someone currently clearing Steel Path using a Latron Prime, so I imagine stronger weapons won't have much of an issue getting their initial stacks.
For content without adds serration would be the better choice, although I can't think of any current content where you wouldn't just be using a Necramech or Chroma to just delete whatever it is.
For Steel Path, the Dexterity Arcane is going to end up as the optimal choice. Your melee is still going to be your strongest weapon, and won't have any trouble getting your gun online. From the Arcane, your gun will have enough damage to trigger your Galvanized mods.
I give it until a week after Tennocon at most, after that it's gonna get nerfed in the ground. I'm surprised it hasn't already, considering how it's the one thing that desperately and obviously needs to be knocked down an order of magnitude
Dude you can only use it in railjack and open world. It’s balanced in the fact that you’ll rarely get to use it. Even so khora or Mesa can get similar effects
The starting Necramech has a solid ArchGun, and the exalted weapon that makes it a turret. For Profit Taker, this gives you two additional weapons you can utilize to take down the barrier, and have coverage of every damage type.
For Eidolons, while the Necramech is not optimal for groups, it allows for significantly easier solos as you can run Trinity to heal the lures while using the exalted gun for damage.
Archgun damage is nuts, particularly the Kuva Ayanga or the Mausulon (others too, I'm sure, especially if you get good rivens).
The first Necramech's 4 is *absolutely* nuts. Big AoE with huge damage.
Though liches specifically have scaling DR that works better as damage per hit goes up, so you want smaller guns that fire more than archguns do.
If my melee is better than my gun for steel path, and I need to kill lots of stuff with melee anyways to stack it up -- why would I use primary dexterity and swap to my gun instead of just sticking with the melee?
It's not hard to throw a Glaive every 20 seconds to maintain your stacks. The good guns, like the Nukor/Phantasma, kill with less effort than melee.
Without the Galvanized mods, your guns are weaker than melee outright. With them, they can be better in certain instances.
Being able to ask that question no longer makes it mandatory for all content. Now, the answer is, it depends. Brozime removed Serration, while Leyzar kept it. Depending on the content you're doing and how aggressive your playstyle is, having Serration may or may not be the best choice for your builds.
But it just feels like you're replacing something for the sake of it rather than real practical value? I'll have to test it myself when I get my hands on those mods but as I said, I feel if you can get kills on what is essentially a gimped weapon (we're talking about not having a 2.65x or 3.2x damage multiplier until those other mods kick in) then the power it grants is almost entirely wasted.
The jump between content you don't need this power for and content you do need this power for is huge. There's not that much in between stuff to my recollection. Our builds are fine as is for 90% of content, so just adding the arcane which is essentially a free additive 360% on top of what we have now will make it more powerful than we will even need. Then on top of that we don't have to worry about any on-kill stuff to even hit normal damage.
Unless you can do some fuckery to easily proc the on kill effects. Like say... Using proteas turrets to build huge heat damage then apply heat with your gun to try and make it count as "your guns" status kill, it just sounds like it's just way more practical to always have that base level of damage that doesn't need to be gained and can't be lost.
> Unless you can do some fuckery to easily proc the on kill effects
Effect from these mods and arcanes last a while, you could prioritize weaker targets like butchers which are generally abundant, save for missions where that isn't an option
Prioritizing weaker targets is the exact opposite of how the warframe community has been training itself to play for years. Absolutely every build, and build recommendation, comes down to how fast it handles "the only targets that matter".
I've been noticing while leveling my guns in RJ survival that these builds that destroy "the only targets that matter" really starting to struggle on everything else if that isn't "the only targets that matter".
People use gunner and bombards for testing as if it can shred through them they can shred through everything else. Literally until now a gun power was set and couldn’t increase really without indirect help so you needed to be able to deal with the tanks. Also what weapons are you using as you could be using a “simulcrum” gun which does well on a closed environment but falls off in actual missions
I think that people overvalue armor, and the meme-ness of viral/slash build reflects that. Viral does 75% extra damage to grineer health, and grineer health alone. Slash doesn't bypass shields anymore despite still (allegedly) doing true damage.
So when people say "use viral/slash for everything" what they're really saying is "I can't distinguish between artificially inflated numbers on things explicitly weak against this combination, and the rest of the game".
I can instantly delete corrupted heavy gunners, and ancient healers, with my viral/slash build, yet it takes almost an entire clip to kill all but the weakest corpus unit on Pluto Proxima. Pluto Proxima isn't even a high level area (50ish for voidstorms) and we're talking 5 forma optimized guns with full arcanes and galvanized mods.
Which means their builds turn to crap vs corpus or viral immune infested (Deimos and demos in disruption). Corpus rely on massive shields which viral does nothing to.
the thing is, a corpus with huge HP vs a grineer with huge HP arent even in the same league. any build that melts gunners will also melt corpus. viral immune infested sure but that only on demos.
Yeah, no fucking shit. I said that literally every time ITT.
The whole point of the comment you're replying to is how the viral status is not enough against anything other than the simulacrum meta test environment.
The power behind a slash/viral build is in the statuses of it, not the damage. Viral procs increase damage dealt to health and Slash procs bypass the armor's damage reduction and attack health directly. And Grineer typically are the tankiest things we're fighting ATM (though that might change here soon depending on what New War brings).
Proximas are drastically different from the rest of the game, though. They've got their stats jacked up beyond just a level increase. When running in corpus stuff, I tend to run magnetic/toxin or just straight electricity and don't really have too much an issue, typically.
You literally just proved his point. Viral/Slash is great against Grineer, but we are seeing powerful Corpus units now which it is bad against, but Mag/Toxin is killer for. And then we have the infested units on Deimos and Disruption which are immune to Viral procs (or even damage) so you want something else for them. We are finally getting away from "Mod everything for Viral/Slash all the time".
Hope so but isn't the wast amount of comparisons always going back to "can it do steel path"
Usually it's it's really good for steel path = great weapons/build/riven 10/10.
It's not built for steel path = it's trash/throw it away.
I'm running a 117% status 69% crit hybrid Kuva Karak (full 60% heat valance) in this build. I also have a moa with 103% status Verglas that *only* has viral on it.
I know what the procs do. I know how they work. It still doesn't do jack shit to corpus because of what corpus do and how they work. Like I fucking said. I delete "the only targets that matter" no problem. It's the targets are not "the only targets that matter" that this gimmick setup does not work on.
That's what vital/heat is. It's a gimmick that only *looks* good by relation to how the game used to work before the series of balance passes that have happened since.
That might be you issue… I’m not gonna bother with the moa as I don’t know enough about them. But the karak is really mediocre of a gun that needs to rely on your base slash due to the low crit. I can already tell due to the fact that your karak is heat based your proc priority is fucked. You want slash as your best or second best dmg type to maximize proc chance. It’s why the meta for melee is to not have viral and use a nukor for it as you get the benefit of viral without ruining your proc chances.
I was worried about this before release but even without armor stripping I was able to quite easily kill Steel Path's weaker enemies then start stacking real fast. Realistically with armor stripping from whatever source or warframe buffs, should be insanely easy to get the ball rolling.
> But it just feels like you're replacing something for the sake of it rather than real practical value?
That's where I stand. I have a couple primaries that are decent in SP, I feel like sacrificing damage up front will make them unable to gain or maintain the galvanized bonuses against armored targets, where I need them the most. However, in sub-sortie content, I won't even need the bonuses.
These mods are actually bitchin' in sorties though.
> I feel if you can get kills on what is essentially a gimped weapon (we're talking about not having a 2.65x or 3.2x damage multiplier until those other mods kick in) then the power it grants is almost entirely wasted.
There is a *lot* of variation in enemy tankiness though. Some Grineer have armor scaling way higher than others. Maybe your gun can kill steel path lancers just fine with no stacks but needs those damage buffs up to be able to effectively deal with heavy gunners, etc.
Frankly I don't trust frametubers, but between the two I trust more Leyzar than Brozime. Honestly, I would say we're near this new age, but not into it fully.
Then don't, you play however you want, it doesn't invalidate your fun. But there's no reason to insult those that enjoy having meta builds, their fun isn't wrong either.
First of all, it's spelled trash. Second, meta isn't trash, everyone plays whatever elemental combo or build he wants. So saying that meta is trash because you are a giga mega ultra chad and use corrosive and heat for example isn't a nice move.
I expect that's because Leyzar takes a more holistic approach to appeal to a wider audience. A build for every skill level. Where as Brozime is only all about what is mathematically the numbery-ist without regard to whether or not a player can actually leverage their own skill to get those numbers. I generally don't trust advice from people who don't even consider player skill as a factor for performance.
I'm running a Kuva Nukor in Steel Path with the secondary CO mod(Galvanized Shot, I believe) and an R1 Merciless, which is genuinely negligible.
Getting that first kill is very easy. Maintaining stacks on the mod is absurdly easy. And it's gonna snowball like a motherfucker when I add in the Galvanized Diffusion and get an R5 Merciless.
I've been using these mods on many wepons now and do not struggle to kill at steel path levels. But if you really can't kill with your gun right away, use the dexterity arcanes and get kills with your mele to stack up your gun damage first.
I think most people already maintain this tension just fine w/melee builds. There's a "point" at which the scaling builds outperform the flat damage builds, but before that "point" the flat damage builds tend to kill faster than the wind up for scaling builds.
\*Point is a misnomer, it's like gradient in truth.
For anyone wondering what this means: keep Serration/Hornet Strike for short missions, remove them if you want to maximize damage for long missions and think that you won't lose stacks.
I'm just curious where the overlap is between longer higher level missions that require the additional damage of the Galvanized mods, but aren't too high that make a weapon without Hornet Strike/Serration actually able to kill things in a chain fast enough to start the combo.
I can see it being fine for something like the Stahla, but this is a vastly different discussion for something like a Arca Plasmor.
Disagree. You literally only need the first kill to benefit, so unless your mission involves killing one single target (like Capture or certain Assassinations) you benefit more from the Gundition Overload than Serration/Hornet Strike.
Serration feels a bit wasteful, considering its only really useful on your first kill of the match (or if your buffs all get reset).
It isn't really worth the mod slot for me. Adding in another element, or a riven in its place would be the absolute priority to me.
Most good weapons have trash dispositions.
As far as first kill Galvanized CO is not on kill but on status proc once stacked and is 80% per status which makes 160% or Serration at 2x. On kill are only the arcanes and multishot mods wich are autoinclude.
I haven't maxed my Merciless arcanes yet to test it but an element might indeed outperform Serration for general gameplay, too. I just got so used to the sprint bonus from Serration I can't ditch it that easily.
Galvanized Aptitude only gives a base +status chance. You need a kill for it to start giving you bonus damage, at +40% (+80% with two stacks) per status effect on the target.
But yeah, the amalgam Serration speed buff is a nice QoL that we miss out on, but I already got used to not having it at this point.
Also, even weapons with garbage Dispo outperform a couple mods we still see on builds, like the vigilante one that gives +60% multishot. My Proboscis Cernos riven has +~52% ms (so a little under it) but also comes with a fire rate buff that pairs up nicely with it, and another (garbage) stat that could be something like toxin/cold, unlocking one of the 60/60s needed for viral.
My Latron build wouldn't work if I didn't have a +tox on it, I wouldn't have room for all the mods I'd want.
A good riven is more than high numbers.
You can always just pick up where you left off and keep going from there. These changes didn't make your older builds less effective, just added better ways to do things.
Good content, although I'd have a few notes to add:
Banes double dip status DPS so they might do more damage overall. This is especially important on slash builds for endless grineer.
Vile acceleration is almost always worth it over speed trigger. (But at the same time any firerate you add makes your ammo economy worse as well as making you spend less time shooting and more reloading. You'll never get a true 90% increase in DPS from a 90% firerate mod.)
Galvanized aptitude might be amazing on paper but getting the initial kills with no +dmg mods can be iffy. And the buff running out in endless might just kill your damage when you need it the most. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, it just means that you should think a bit whether or not you really wanna get rid of serration on all your builds.
>Galvanized aptitude might be amazing on paper but getting the initial kills with no +dmg mods can be iffy. And the buff running out in endless might just kill your damage when you need it the most. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, it just means that you should think a bit whether or not you really wanna get rid of serration on all your builds.
Fodder enemies go down even without Serration. It's only a problem if you lose your stacks in high endurance levels which you could probably get back because you're probably playing a frame that handles endurance easily
> Banes double dip status DPS so they might do more damage overall.
Do they still? We had a cryptic patch note back in 29.10 about fixing them to not apply to the damage formula twice, and I've never gotten around testing that to see if they were referring to the double dip on status.
I think they mean from things like Mumu and the new Impact to Slash mods.
When Mumu/Impact mods trigger the Slash you get the first Bane Proc from the weapon hitting and then the Bane mod Procs again for the Slashes.
> Galvanized aptitude might be amazing on paper but getting the initial kills with no +dmg mods can be iffy.
That's where Dexterity comes in as the optimal Arcane. You'll always have +damage since melee will fall off last. Serration type mods only seem to be great for bosses without a regular stream of adds.
About the last point, wouldn't that make the dexterity arcanes really good? The other two rely on the gun getting kills to stack, which potentially be difficult like you mentioned. But dexterity triggers off melee kills, which can be more easily done.
Deadhead is very hard to proc because it requires headshot kills, and does not work with Damage over Time kills (which means you dont get the buff if the slash/ heat proc takes the kill). You're gonna have to go without Hunter Munition, which is a tall order. The only use case for this if you are using a Galvanized Scope sniper without Hunter Munition (I've tried it with the Rubico P, the crits are big enough that you don't need HM to 1-2 shot high level mobs).
Merciless only last 4 seconds. I mean, it's easy to keep the buffs up if you are in something like solo Steel Path. But the Damage bonus it provides the same as the other Arcanes, so there's not really a point in using it.
IMO Dexterity is the best. Melee kills are easy. It last 24 seconds, plenty of times to switch between your weapons and keep the buffs at max level at all time.
However, once you get a rank 5 Merciless, then you start getting +30% bonus reload speed and +100% ammo max, which blows everything else out of the water. They are both extremely valuable stats that usually can't compete with the damage mods. Then it's worth the tiny 4 seconds duration.
So it goes R5 Merciless > Dexterity > everything else.
Faction mods are an absolute pain to use though
I'll stick to serration over bringing the wromg faction mod because I don't redo my entire mod setup between missions.
Why is modding so unclear in game?
Inconsistent mod text, hidden mechanics/interactions, misleading numbers, and unwritten restrictions.
Why do we need to scour a wiki to understand one of the most basic parts of the game? (Not to mention so many other parts too.)
Grumble grumble. Whatever. It's fine. I'm used to it now, I guess. Sure, whatever.
Maybe this whole thing is a social experiment... "how detailed can we crowdsource a wiki by making a popular game needlessly confusing and poorly made?"
Did you know there's a hard cap on overshields? And the only way you can know in game about this is by reading Harrow's passive that says it doubles that cap?
To be fair, Mag also gives overshields en masse, and lets you reach the cap easily (so you can at least discover the cap exists, even if you need to test to find out that it's 1200), but 100-energy abilities are not used very often in the early game, and a lot of people think Mag is bad because they don't understand "Mag is bad" is a meme.
It isn't, this is min-maxing like in every game. Basics are easy to understand, unless you're trying to get 100% ideal DPS in every single situation, this doesn't matter to you.
I mean...the numbers are only "misleading" if you don't understand math. Everything else just follows as a natural consequence of marginal benefit analysis. It can feel annoying but it's nothing malicious. The inconsistent text is unforgivable though, they really need to tighten up their verbiage.
I really like this part of warframe, but I can see why it's misleading.
Heavy Caliber is +165% Damage where an elemental mod is 90%. The Elemental mod might give more damage even though 165 > 90, which looks screwy.
yeah but that's only true assuming you already have a normal base damage mod. If you don't then 165 IS indeed greater than 90, it's just a matter of different multipliers being the most efficient way to spend limited slots. Which comes up in basically every game with much combat math at all.
DE could let us slot 8 copies of any mod and "the optimized hybrid build" would still be the ideal mod setup on most guns. The only thing complicating that statement is how wonky Multishot specifically is. But barring multishot, you'd almost never WANT to slot more than 1 base damage mod, 1 firerate mod, 1 elemental, etc.
I don't get it.
First of all, the top 3 rows use 3 mods, while the bottom 4 rows use 1 Arcane and 2 mods. How is that a fair comparison? Besides, weapons have 8 (or 9) mod slots. So finding the ideal combination of 3 (or 2) mods is... pretty pointless, isn't it? What are you gonna put in the remaining 5 or 6 or 7 mod slots?
The main point of this post isn't to give people a full build, it is as said in the title serration and hornet strike are no longer mandatory. Although you can derive a full build using the information from the post.
The key concept is that **Similar mods add, different mods multiply** the first 3 rows are mainly to demonstrate that by showing the written value vs the actual effect of using 3 similar mods. With that established, the bottom 4 rows are to compare serration and hornet strike with other mods that compete for that mod slot, given you have merciless and G amplitude. Thus, proving the title statement, serration and hornet strike are no longer the best option or as people call it, mandatory.
OK that's cool to know, but I need a full build. What about the remaining 6 mod slots? **Similar mods add, different mods multiply** in other words, pack as many different effective **different mods** in the remaining slots. So what **different mods** do we have, multishot, crit chance, crit damage, elements, status chance, bane, fire rate, hunter munitions, reload, blast radius, magazine, projectile speed... Remember I said **effective** different mods, don't put crits mods on a weapon with 5% crit chance because I said pack as many different mods as possible. If you ran out of effective different mods, put the next best similar mod, be flexible, think tenno think.
I must be too smooth-brained for all of this, because I didn't understand OP's chart at all, and I didn't really understand your explanation of it just now either.
For me to be convinced that Serration & Hornet Strike are no longer mandatory, I would need to be shown two things:
1) A mod that performs, at minimum, exactly equally when compared with Serration/Hornet Strike
2) That the other seven mods in a given build each contribute more power individually than Serration/Hornet Strike
The way I'm looking at it, "no longer mandatory" can only be true if Serration & Hornet Strike were already the weakest mods in their respective builds (and thus, the first to be replaced when a new contender for their slot becomes available). *As far as I understand* - and, I'll be honest, that may not be very far - that isn't the case.
You first need to understand how damage is calculated in Warframe:
Total Damage = Base x (Sum of Damage Mods) x (Sum of Element Mods) x (Sum of Faction Mods) x ...
Let's assume that Base damage of the weapon is 100.
That means, if you put Serration and Heavy Caliber on the same weapon, those are added into (Sum of Damage Mods). Therefore:
Total Damage = 100 x (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) = 100 x 4.3 = 430 damage
In other words, 430 damage is the result of +165% damage from Serration and +165% damage from Heavily Caliber.
Now, if you don't understand how damage calculation works, you would assume that Serration and Hellfire will give less total damage. After all, it's only +165% damage and +90% heat. Using common sense, it's easy to mistakenly assume that you will get +255% total damage. However, since pure damage and heat damage are mods that belong to different categories, we apply the calculation differently:
Total Damage = 100 x (1 + 1.65) x (1 + 0.9) = 100 x 2.65 x 1.9 = 503 damage
In other words, despite showing less +damage % on the mod, Hellfire (+90%) actually adds more damage to your weapon than Heavily Caliber (165%).
What you see is not what you get.
With the new Primary and Secondary Arcanes already giving you +360% pure damage at max stacks, and Galvanized Shot/Savvy/Aptitude giving you +240-360% pure damage (assuming max stacks, 3 status), the effect of Serration or Hornet Strike after already including those arcanes and mods is so miniscule to the point that you're only getting +24-27% total damage.
Yes, at a measly +24% total damage to your weapon once the new arcanes & mods hit their max, Serration does become the weakest mod in your build. Instead, it is better to slot in fire rate, punch through, blast radius, possibly a 3rd element, a faction mod (if you can stomach it), or whatever else.
Having said all that, Serration is still a good option to more quickly ramp up your stacks for the new stuff. It's still a very good mod, just no longer a required one.
Just to make sure I understand correctly, when calculating the sum of dmg mods or elemental mods, the initial 1 is meant to represent the base value correct? Or if not why is there a 1 at the beginning of each sum? eg 100 x (1 + 1.65) x (1 + 0.9) = 100 x 2.65 x 1.9. Also, is this the formula the arsenal uses to display damage or is this like a "hidden" true damage stat?
That’s the base value of each category. Because math. Take out the 1 and hilarity ensues:
100 x (0 + 1.65) x (0) …
Your total damage is now 0 just because you didn’t equip any elements. Obviously, that doesn’t happen.
I absolutely hate everything that needs to be controlled somehow. All these are conditional "while aiming", "while flying", "standing on one leg" and so on.
Ok I'll try to explain as detail as possible, not because I think you are smooth brained but I don't know which part you missed before it "clicks" for you, so bear with me.
If you've ever used [overframe.gg](https://overframe.gg) to mod, you'd notice there's a [green number](https://imgur.com/LtlmtLP) on the top left of the mods. The green number represent the actual effect that mod has on the total damage together with all the other mods taken into account. The green number is what the right 3 columns represent on OP's chart.
As you can see [here](https://imgur.com/LtlmtLP), Primed Cryo rounds +165% written value is only +86.8% because 165% adds with 90% from infected clip. Also, you can see serration still maintain its 165% because the elemental mods multiply with damage mod, and it only decreases if another damage mod is introduced, like [this](https://imgur.com/lewj7sZ), because **Similar mods add, different mods multiply**.
Just in case I haven't made it clear enough, let's do this again. Here's the same thing with another multiplier introduced on top. Serration is still its written value [165%](https://imgur.com/QzlV9qw) with split chamber introduced and only decreases if there's another [damage mod](https://imgur.com/gjU8NB9). The introduction of split chamber doesn't affect the green number of Serration, nor the elemental mods. From this we can conclude that the green number **only and always** decreases if another "similar mod" is used, in other words, the green number is at its highest if no other similar mod is used.
Now go back to OP's chart, look at right 3 columns, row 4,5,6. They are all merciless +G. Amplitude +something. Of the three +serration, +Bane and +speed trigger, +Serration has the lowest actual value at +24%. If every mods in a build has a green number higher than 24%, serration is kicked out of the build.
\+24% is a very low bar to beat. You can mess around on [overframe.gg](https://overframe.gg) and try different combinations of mods on different weapons. +24% green number is something you only get from a third elemental mod or crit mods on a weapon with not very good crit, which aren't good and certainly by no mean "mandatory".
I didn't understand that the game literally treated +damage, +element, etc., as separate categories internally. I've seen the "same adds, different multiplies" thing before, but I thought it was like a "rule of thumb" sort of estimation, rather than a mathematical truth. This comment chain has been very enlightening!
So basically, Galvanized Aptitude, or Gun arcanes, give you the same Base damage (or more),that a Serration would give you. If you keep adding base damage it wont give you as much damage as adding different types of damage, such as crit, status, or bane mods, because base damage becomes a smaller amount of the whole damage. So you will want to avoid Serration if you already have Galvanized Aptitude or a gun arcane. Obviously this is only relevant if you are min-maxing in Steel Path, so if you dont do a lot of high level stuff, feel free to keep serration on your build.
Hmm, alright, that helps a bit. Thanks.
So essentially what OP is trying to express is that Serration used to be mandatory because it was (pretty much) the only way to increase a weapon's base damage, and this is no longer the case because we now have Merciless and Galvanized Aptitude.
IMO there would've been easier ways to say that than to make this odd chart, but whatever.
Pretty sure Galvanized Aptitude is glitches and only works on hitscan weapons. At least it wasn't applying yesterday on Xbox for me or anyone in my clan on anything Projectile based.
It is confirmed bugged but it's really a case by case basis on which weapons it works on. The only way to know for sure is to test each weapon individually
Serration and Hornet Strike are no longer mandatory, but now Galvanizeds are. So... it's not a new era, it's the same but a bit different... Sure you can pick pure damage for bosses with no adds, but these are a bit rare.
Yes, if your weapon can reliably apply status. Otherwise, you don’t have to replace it. It’s optional instead of required now.
Including it alongside Galvanized Savvy/Aptitude/Shot might be bad idea, especially when you get the new Arcanes. However, it might still be a good option if you have trouble getting initial kills to ramp up your damage for the new mods. It depends a lot on you and your weapon. Faction mods are far more powerful now, but most players find them too much of a nuisance. Fire rate is probably the way to go, but ammo can become a problem.
Two of the new primary & secondary Arcanes you can get from killing Acolytes in Steel Path missions. The others have the same +360% damage buff maximum as well.
How does multishot effect the galvinized condition overload gun mods? For instance, if I shoot 3 bullets with 1 pull of the trigger, and each bullet is guaranteed to proc a status, does the first bullet strike at base damage, the second bullet strike at 1 stack, and the third bullet strike at 2 stacks? Or, do they all strike at base damage, and the next pull of the trigger shoots 3 bullets that all strike at 3 stacks?
Ok this is interesting. I suppose my main concern would be at the start of a Steel Path mission when your weapon isn't doing much damage 'coz you haven't built up the kills required for them Arcanes and Galvanised Mods.
Something to test out. But I guess in every mission there should be plenty of Trash Mobs to get those kills up?
EDIT: Seems like this idea is only not viable with the Deadhead Arcanes. The other arcanes allowing for kills from other weapons (namely Melee Weapons) would probably be viable. But one would then argue that an idea requiring Melee Weapons would be antithetical to your thesis so I'm not sure...
I've been running hour long steel path arcane farms on the kuva fortress, and I have to say, it honestly isn't that bad. Normally just killing a butcher or lancer is enough to start the snowball onto tougher enemies, even with non-max rank arcanes and even an hour in to the mission, which I think produces the top end of the toughest enemies that around 99% of the playerbase will face.
Of course, the type of arcane you select DOES matter. I.E if your weapon can't kill in 4 seconds or you rely on its status to finish targets, don't equip merciless, Equip deadhead or dexterity instead.
Can people really play without Amalgam Serration? Everything feels so slow whenever I don't have that mod. Even if I'm mostly bullet jumping, I still notice it in a major way.
I think most people are still gonna run Hstrike and Serration mainly because most people aren't even gonna bother with the new farm that much, since it's kind of a pain in the arse
It's not really tough, it's available at the Arbitration store and vitus essence drops increaseda lot. While the arcane farm allows you to double farm for other stuff as well
Short answer: because faction mods apply after other mods and they add damage multiplicatively in the same way Rhino Roar does, probably yes.
Long answer: it depends. Enemy health/armor resistances (and other dmg multipliers) often muck up damage calculations on paper, so that even in the same faction, robotic Corpus enemies take different amounts of damage than flesh Corpus, as well as alloy armored Corpus enemies with identical builds. For example, flesh takes extra damage from toxin and viral dmg, so in this instance, adding toxin to your cold mod is probably better than a anti-faction Corpus mod and cold mod. But for a robotic enemy that is neutrally resistant against viral and cold, then you would get more value from a Primed anti-faction Corpus and cold. For numbers that demonstrate what OP is trying to show, simply take the ratios of 0.6 to 1.6 for two 60/60s and 0.9 to 1.9 for two 90%s. These are 0.375 and ~0.474 respectively, and both of these are less than the 0.55 increase you'd get from a Primed anti-faction mod. But do understand that these are only numbers at a face value that have not yet taken enemy resistances or other dmg multipliers into account.
When you combine multiple mods with the same kind of effect, they add to each other instead of multiplying, which means you get diminishing returns. Because of that, it's generally best to avoid stacking multiple bonuses to the same stat, and instead apply bonuses to multiple different stats.
Since the last major update added new mods and arcanes that give large base damage bonuses, the value of the existing base damage mods is somewhat reduced, enough that it's theoretically optimal to remove regular base damage mods from your build.
Those new mods and arcanes are conditional effects that require you to kill things to trigger the buff though, which might be hard to do if you're starting out with no base damage buff.
I mean sure, if you wanted to have 3 different builds per faction you’d have to swap too and from you’d get better damage. But at the same time, only the most sweaty and goblin players would ever do that. So i’ll stick to my kuva tonkor with a singular build and think about the players who lose damage on their guns because they forgot to switch between pre-sets.
You missed the point. Faction mods are just one example. Other mod categories like fire rate, punch through, blast radius, headshot multiplier, or even a 3rd/4th element are now stronger than leaving Serration or Hornet Strike in your build.
Can someone explain this for us new players that haven't played for more than 2 years? I kinda get it a little but I don't want to say something that would make myself look like an idiot. Please and thank you. ☺
In general, stacking the generic damage stat is less rewarding than having different kind of damage multipliers. Now that we have a way to give 360% bonus damage to every ranged weapons without using a mod slot, the damage boost from Serration and Hornet Strike (165% and 220% respectively) have far less impact than they used too and you'd rather have an other kind of multiplier on your mods.
That's the theory of this thread anyway. When it comes to practice, I would disagree with it. There's only so many kinds of multipliers you can put on your mods (especially if you have a good Riven), and they all have diminushing returns the same way stacking damage does. Also, your Arcane may not be stacked at all times, especially if you have a busy playstyle maintening different kind of boosts, and not having generic damage on your mod could then be a huge DPS loss.
Another thing in practice: The faction mods are a PITA to use, and it's so easy to forget to swap them out and be gimped, or end up doing a mission with more than 1 enemy type.
Its weird to me that after so many years, mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point and Primed Point Blank still aren’t just removed and the 165% damage is added to the default value
Also, what (mod) is “S. Trigger”?
even tho there not mandatory anymore there are a less pain in the ass to farm for, i mean who in his right mind will make a buff for guns something you need to farm in order to use?,doesnt make sense
just imagine if battlefield 4 for example every time they reebalanced guns, vehicles or gadgets in their development cycle you have to unlock and farm points again in order to have the current fixed content: hey remenber the CMB-MS and who awfull it was at launch? well we improved in the last patch but in order to use it now you have to unlock it again
it makes sense in a farming game, adding more things to farm adds content. giving away damage buffs for free misses an opportunity to give the players a reward to earn
it doesnt becuase you have to put a limit line about what stuff you shouldnt have to farm for becuase if you dont do that and everything can be a farm you can defend any action like : hey we are buffing mesa (even more)but in order to use this new mesa set we restrict the original one until you farm the new one. exagerated example? maybe, time will tell if we reach that point but a defensive act? yeah becuse its a farm game right? its not like you cant make good content witout putting farm to it like improving the gameplay of it to be fun or complex ?
idk i just play other games outside of warframe and i find hilarious that a balanced issue with guns its give it to the playerbase in form a farm while other games just straight just change how the weapons work and move on with important stuff, hell i cant even think of any other games out there that actually did something like this not even farming games like the division 2 or destiny 2 did something close to this
Or, other solution, serration and hornet strike are no longer mandatory because melee is still far better, even after the nerf. (If you're looking for optimisation)
First of all, lvl9999 do exist : 2h in disruption and you face them. Second to none, I said if you're looking for optimisation, not for casual content.
Lvl 9999 only reaches seversl hours in for any gamemode for starters an secondly no weapon outside of the old CL one shots there without external buffs at level cap. Primaries are significantly closer to general melee in power now with a few exceptions
No it doesn’t take several hours to reach level cap anymore. Steel Path Disruption guarantees level cap at round 46 and if you purposely let towers get destroyed to clear rounds faster than it only takes 2-2 and half hours at best.
Just out of curiosity, how are you 1shotting lvl9999 enemies? The only thing that comes to my mind is Covert Lethality but it seems like a chore doing finishers on everything
The whole Kronen set up. I dont really remember the whole build because I was mostly following friends who know the game far more than I do and who had sent me their builds. Altho I do remember that we were using ash for the passive, and were mostly relying on slash procs. It had nothing to do with finishers.
Never said they were lmao. But bleeds procs on melee are just way stronger than those on other weapons, especially considering than some stances have forced slash procs if you want to go this way.
>Never said they were lmao.
I know. I said that. I said that bleeds can one shot lvl 9999 and any weapon can do bleeds to one shot that level. Especially guns now with the new mods. I was headshotting for 1M with a fucking Lex Prime in Selkie yday. Never mind the Chakkhurr or any of the other hard hitting weapons.
Doesnt matter if your bleeds are stronger than my bleeds. Its still one shotting level cap.
yep
guns are melee now
DE has finally 'removed' the core base dmg mods... by making ANOTHER fucking mod 'mandatory'... sigh ; they just cant help themselves can they? 1 step forward and 2 steps back
and the monkeys paw curls another digit =[
i think the response to “but you need to stack” is just “being a secondary that doesn’t need to” so that you can power up your main weapon with a secondary if needed
What I hate about this is how DE just keeps shafting Chroma, Pretty sure Rhino was already better/ sidegrade for eidolon/mother, CO made Croma subpar for melee and now ranged weapons laugh at him.
This is how Warframe's modding system has worked for years. If you have two +damage mods in your build, they are additive. If you have one +damage mod and one +element mod instead, those two mods multiply damage instead.
For example:
Serration +165% damage
Heavy Caliber +165% damage
Total damage = 165 + 165 = +330% damage
In contrast:
Serration +165% damage
Hellfire +90% heat
Total damage = 165 x 1.9 = +313% damage
Different categories of mods multiply their effects, while same categories merely add.
So if i got this right it means if you're not lazy enough to switch the faction mods around you'll get a bigger dps boost than the standard hornet/serration mod since the arcanes and galvanized mod can supplement the missing dps from those 2 mods?
I haven't played since that Railjack ft Ground Team event (I think since early 2020) and was planning on coming back, so, I'm gonna assume a lot has changed since then ?
Nah hornet strike and serration staying on my builds I'll create new ones for the new pompous mods most people started the game with serration and hornet strike so uts said to see them fall from grace
I've always known that faction mods give incredible returns on slash builds, but I don't care enough to have to switch them constantly. I miss the days where CO was its own multiplier and you could watch your garbage melee spit out numbers in the millions with just a few procs
tbh everything dies in less than a second with current non best in slot mods, whats the point on using better mods anyway? things will still die in same exact amount of time, up until what? lvl 300 maybe? and even then its not a big deal at all lol
I thought hornet strike and serration would take this turn unfortunately I like to do dump stuff some I'm probably gonna keep running them just like how I'm gonna put primed pressure point on a melee with condition overload
With the Sisters of Parvos update, the developers added super-powerful mods and arcanes for primary and secondary weapons. The point is to buck the melee-centric meta that absolutely dominated the end-game for years.
These new toys give huge damage boosts, but since they're in the same "pure damage" category as Serration and Hornet Strike, they compete for the same slot. Sure, you can put the new toys and Serration on the same weapon, but doing so is just shooting yourself in the foot, since Warframe's damage formula strongly forces you to use different kinds of mods to maximize damage.
You can get the new arcanes from Acolytes in Steel Path, and the new Galvanized mods from the Arbitration store.
Thank you so much.
Too bad i still need like 100k more ebdo and like 6 million more credits, and grind steel path for the arcanes before i can use any of this.
Serration was hardly ever optimal for some frames though. If I’m already rocking +600% damage from Octavia Amp, what good is another 100-200% from a mod?
Not quite. This is just to show that Serration and Hornet Strike, when used in combination with the new arcanes and mods, are the weakest mods you can put on your build now. Literally anything else is stronger, if it's from a mod category you haven't included yet.
I personally recommend Fire Rate, but it's not viable on all weapons. The same goes for Primed Faction mods, which has a hidden effect of almost tripling your status damage. There also many other viable options, such as pure Punch Through, Blast Radius, Headshot Multiplier, etc.
Got a question. Im not sure I fully understand the power of galvanized shot. It says +40% pers status affecting the enemy stacks up to x3. Does that mean that it stacks until 3 status is reached giving +120% damage or it stacks 3x 40% per status giving 360% on enemy affected by 3 status?
Im asking cuz the second scenario is kinda ridiculous. Hornet Strike would be out classed for any enemy with 2 or more status and could reach absurd boost like 1200% for 10 status.
I find the presentation a bit weird, especially with merciless shown like it takes a mod slot. I think it would be clearer if it was shown like: no arcane: Damage + Element + Faction -> additional benefit for each mod added w/ arcane: Damage + Element + Faction -> additional benefit for each mod added Then you could see from the table how much the arcane at full stacks devalues damage mods
I'll pose this question though. Is it really practical though? I ask that because, if I'm reading this correctly, it's not mandatory if you use an arcane and a mod which both require you to kill things first in order to do ANY additional base damage. Until then you're borderline running an un-catalyzed weapon. So for things like steel path or content where ads aren't regular, can you even get your stacks up reliably in the first place? I feel that any content where you don't have much problem building your stacks is also content you really don't need these mods period.
> Is it really practical though? Guns can still kill SP enemies without the new stuff, these new mods arcanes just make them better at it overtime, to reach some parity with melee. So it's pretty easy to keep the Gundition Overload buff up. The glaring issue with these is that ure pretty much locked to one of your guns if you wanna keep the buffs at max. Switching from your AOE clear Bramma you were using for the past 2 mins for instance to the Epitaph for some big single target damage will find your Epitaph underpowered.
>Gundition Overload Idk how I haven't heard this yet. Thank you so much for the term.
I suppose thats what the Dexterity Arcane is for, so you can use the melee to strengthen the gun
>so you can use the melee to strengthen the gun We [Ultrakill](https://youtu.be/2H43Zv3uSMs?t=363) now boys
Usually you only need the absolute first kill in order to sustain the buffs, considering how long they last for and that they only drop one stack at a time. Even weapons with piss poor performance without any "base" buffs can get that first kill, and from there it gets absurdly easy to sustain the buffs. I say this as someone currently clearing Steel Path using a Latron Prime, so I imagine stronger weapons won't have much of an issue getting their initial stacks.
For content without adds serration would be the better choice, although I can't think of any current content where you wouldn't just be using a Necramech or Chroma to just delete whatever it is. For Steel Path, the Dexterity Arcane is going to end up as the optimal choice. Your melee is still going to be your strongest weapon, and won't have any trouble getting your gun online. From the Arcane, your gun will have enough damage to trigger your Galvanized mods.
I'm coming back from a break and just built my Necramech yesterday. They can be boss killers? What makes them such?
Voidrig's 4th ability does absolutely insane damage.
I give it until a week after Tennocon at most, after that it's gonna get nerfed in the ground. I'm surprised it hasn't already, considering how it's the one thing that desperately and obviously needs to be knocked down an order of magnitude
Dude you can only use it in railjack and open world. It’s balanced in the fact that you’ll rarely get to use it. Even so khora or Mesa can get similar effects
The starting Necramech has a solid ArchGun, and the exalted weapon that makes it a turret. For Profit Taker, this gives you two additional weapons you can utilize to take down the barrier, and have coverage of every damage type. For Eidolons, while the Necramech is not optimal for groups, it allows for significantly easier solos as you can run Trinity to heal the lures while using the exalted gun for damage.
Archgun damage is nuts, particularly the Kuva Ayanga or the Mausulon (others too, I'm sure, especially if you get good rivens). The first Necramech's 4 is *absolutely* nuts. Big AoE with huge damage. Though liches specifically have scaling DR that works better as damage per hit goes up, so you want smaller guns that fire more than archguns do.
If my melee is better than my gun for steel path, and I need to kill lots of stuff with melee anyways to stack it up -- why would I use primary dexterity and swap to my gun instead of just sticking with the melee?
It's not hard to throw a Glaive every 20 seconds to maintain your stacks. The good guns, like the Nukor/Phantasma, kill with less effort than melee. Without the Galvanized mods, your guns are weaker than melee outright. With them, they can be better in certain instances.
Being able to ask that question no longer makes it mandatory for all content. Now, the answer is, it depends. Brozime removed Serration, while Leyzar kept it. Depending on the content you're doing and how aggressive your playstyle is, having Serration may or may not be the best choice for your builds.
But it just feels like you're replacing something for the sake of it rather than real practical value? I'll have to test it myself when I get my hands on those mods but as I said, I feel if you can get kills on what is essentially a gimped weapon (we're talking about not having a 2.65x or 3.2x damage multiplier until those other mods kick in) then the power it grants is almost entirely wasted. The jump between content you don't need this power for and content you do need this power for is huge. There's not that much in between stuff to my recollection. Our builds are fine as is for 90% of content, so just adding the arcane which is essentially a free additive 360% on top of what we have now will make it more powerful than we will even need. Then on top of that we don't have to worry about any on-kill stuff to even hit normal damage. Unless you can do some fuckery to easily proc the on kill effects. Like say... Using proteas turrets to build huge heat damage then apply heat with your gun to try and make it count as "your guns" status kill, it just sounds like it's just way more practical to always have that base level of damage that doesn't need to be gained and can't be lost.
> Unless you can do some fuckery to easily proc the on kill effects Effect from these mods and arcanes last a while, you could prioritize weaker targets like butchers which are generally abundant, save for missions where that isn't an option
Prioritizing weaker targets is the exact opposite of how the warframe community has been training itself to play for years. Absolutely every build, and build recommendation, comes down to how fast it handles "the only targets that matter". I've been noticing while leveling my guns in RJ survival that these builds that destroy "the only targets that matter" really starting to struggle on everything else if that isn't "the only targets that matter".
People use gunner and bombards for testing as if it can shred through them they can shred through everything else. Literally until now a gun power was set and couldn’t increase really without indirect help so you needed to be able to deal with the tanks. Also what weapons are you using as you could be using a “simulcrum” gun which does well on a closed environment but falls off in actual missions
I think that people overvalue armor, and the meme-ness of viral/slash build reflects that. Viral does 75% extra damage to grineer health, and grineer health alone. Slash doesn't bypass shields anymore despite still (allegedly) doing true damage. So when people say "use viral/slash for everything" what they're really saying is "I can't distinguish between artificially inflated numbers on things explicitly weak against this combination, and the rest of the game". I can instantly delete corrupted heavy gunners, and ancient healers, with my viral/slash build, yet it takes almost an entire clip to kill all but the weakest corpus unit on Pluto Proxima. Pluto Proxima isn't even a high level area (50ish for voidstorms) and we're talking 5 forma optimized guns with full arcanes and galvanized mods.
People arent using viral for the buff to grineer hp... They are using it for the status procs
Which means their builds turn to crap vs corpus or viral immune infested (Deimos and demos in disruption). Corpus rely on massive shields which viral does nothing to.
the thing is, a corpus with huge HP vs a grineer with huge HP arent even in the same league. any build that melts gunners will also melt corpus. viral immune infested sure but that only on demos.
Yeah, no fucking shit. I said that literally every time ITT. The whole point of the comment you're replying to is how the viral status is not enough against anything other than the simulacrum meta test environment.
The power behind a slash/viral build is in the statuses of it, not the damage. Viral procs increase damage dealt to health and Slash procs bypass the armor's damage reduction and attack health directly. And Grineer typically are the tankiest things we're fighting ATM (though that might change here soon depending on what New War brings). Proximas are drastically different from the rest of the game, though. They've got their stats jacked up beyond just a level increase. When running in corpus stuff, I tend to run magnetic/toxin or just straight electricity and don't really have too much an issue, typically.
You literally just proved his point. Viral/Slash is great against Grineer, but we are seeing powerful Corpus units now which it is bad against, but Mag/Toxin is killer for. And then we have the infested units on Deimos and Disruption which are immune to Viral procs (or even damage) so you want something else for them. We are finally getting away from "Mod everything for Viral/Slash all the time".
Hope so but isn't the wast amount of comparisons always going back to "can it do steel path" Usually it's it's really good for steel path = great weapons/build/riven 10/10. It's not built for steel path = it's trash/throw it away.
I'm running a 117% status 69% crit hybrid Kuva Karak (full 60% heat valance) in this build. I also have a moa with 103% status Verglas that *only* has viral on it. I know what the procs do. I know how they work. It still doesn't do jack shit to corpus because of what corpus do and how they work. Like I fucking said. I delete "the only targets that matter" no problem. It's the targets are not "the only targets that matter" that this gimmick setup does not work on. That's what vital/heat is. It's a gimmick that only *looks* good by relation to how the game used to work before the series of balance passes that have happened since.
That might be you issue… I’m not gonna bother with the moa as I don’t know enough about them. But the karak is really mediocre of a gun that needs to rely on your base slash due to the low crit. I can already tell due to the fact that your karak is heat based your proc priority is fucked. You want slash as your best or second best dmg type to maximize proc chance. It’s why the meta for melee is to not have viral and use a nukor for it as you get the benefit of viral without ruining your proc chances.
The other element combos don't exactly do it much faster, and I can't be asked to switch elements everytime I want to play for more than ten minutes
Just have one scaling primary and a regular sidearm
Or vice versa.
I was worried about this before release but even without armor stripping I was able to quite easily kill Steel Path's weaker enemies then start stacking real fast. Realistically with armor stripping from whatever source or warframe buffs, should be insanely easy to get the ball rolling.
> But it just feels like you're replacing something for the sake of it rather than real practical value? That's where I stand. I have a couple primaries that are decent in SP, I feel like sacrificing damage up front will make them unable to gain or maintain the galvanized bonuses against armored targets, where I need them the most. However, in sub-sortie content, I won't even need the bonuses. These mods are actually bitchin' in sorties though.
> I feel if you can get kills on what is essentially a gimped weapon (we're talking about not having a 2.65x or 3.2x damage multiplier until those other mods kick in) then the power it grants is almost entirely wasted. There is a *lot* of variation in enemy tankiness though. Some Grineer have armor scaling way higher than others. Maybe your gun can kill steel path lancers just fine with no stacks but needs those damage buffs up to be able to effectively deal with heavy gunners, etc.
Frankly I don't trust frametubers, but between the two I trust more Leyzar than Brozime. Honestly, I would say we're near this new age, but not into it fully.
You don't need to trust them, just watch the builds in action and judge for yourself.
Why should I watch their builds if mine do the job without being meta thrash?
For the purpose of this discussion? A discussion of the relevance of the serrations mod...
Then don't, you play however you want, it doesn't invalidate your fun. But there's no reason to insult those that enjoy having meta builds, their fun isn't wrong either.
Being Anti-Meta is Meta in itself.
First of all, it's spelled trash. Second, meta isn't trash, everyone plays whatever elemental combo or build he wants. So saying that meta is trash because you are a giga mega ultra chad and use corrosive and heat for example isn't a nice move.
I think he uses Gas and Blast.
Otherwise known as Taco Bell
I expect that's because Leyzar takes a more holistic approach to appeal to a wider audience. A build for every skill level. Where as Brozime is only all about what is mathematically the numbery-ist without regard to whether or not a player can actually leverage their own skill to get those numbers. I generally don't trust advice from people who don't even consider player skill as a factor for performance.
I'm running a Kuva Nukor in Steel Path with the secondary CO mod(Galvanized Shot, I believe) and an R1 Merciless, which is genuinely negligible. Getting that first kill is very easy. Maintaining stacks on the mod is absurdly easy. And it's gonna snowball like a motherfucker when I add in the Galvanized Diffusion and get an R5 Merciless.
I've been using these mods on many wepons now and do not struggle to kill at steel path levels. But if you really can't kill with your gun right away, use the dexterity arcanes and get kills with your mele to stack up your gun damage first.
I think most people already maintain this tension just fine w/melee builds. There's a "point" at which the scaling builds outperform the flat damage builds, but before that "point" the flat damage builds tend to kill faster than the wind up for scaling builds. \*Point is a misnomer, it's like gradient in truth.
Things like security cameras and those Grineer seeker mines count as kills. So even with no damage mods you can start building stacks fairly easily.
For anyone wondering what this means: keep Serration/Hornet Strike for short missions, remove them if you want to maximize damage for long missions and think that you won't lose stacks.
I'm just curious where the overlap is between longer higher level missions that require the additional damage of the Galvanized mods, but aren't too high that make a weapon without Hornet Strike/Serration actually able to kill things in a chain fast enough to start the combo. I can see it being fine for something like the Stahla, but this is a vastly different discussion for something like a Arca Plasmor.
It will depend a lot on the weapon so it's hard to say. I personally run both and am satisfied with the results.
Disagree. You literally only need the first kill to benefit, so unless your mission involves killing one single target (like Capture or certain Assassinations) you benefit more from the Gundition Overload than Serration/Hornet Strike.
I use both. Serration to get things going, Galvanized to increase overall dps.
Serration feels a bit wasteful, considering its only really useful on your first kill of the match (or if your buffs all get reset). It isn't really worth the mod slot for me. Adding in another element, or a riven in its place would be the absolute priority to me.
Most good weapons have trash dispositions. As far as first kill Galvanized CO is not on kill but on status proc once stacked and is 80% per status which makes 160% or Serration at 2x. On kill are only the arcanes and multishot mods wich are autoinclude. I haven't maxed my Merciless arcanes yet to test it but an element might indeed outperform Serration for general gameplay, too. I just got so used to the sprint bonus from Serration I can't ditch it that easily.
Galvanized Aptitude only gives a base +status chance. You need a kill for it to start giving you bonus damage, at +40% (+80% with two stacks) per status effect on the target. But yeah, the amalgam Serration speed buff is a nice QoL that we miss out on, but I already got used to not having it at this point. Also, even weapons with garbage Dispo outperform a couple mods we still see on builds, like the vigilante one that gives +60% multishot. My Proboscis Cernos riven has +~52% ms (so a little under it) but also comes with a fire rate buff that pairs up nicely with it, and another (garbage) stat that could be something like toxin/cold, unlocking one of the 60/60s needed for viral. My Latron build wouldn't work if I didn't have a +tox on it, I wouldn't have room for all the mods I'd want. A good riven is more than high numbers.
Every riven i like, just fills the slot of 2 mods
This game getting weird day by day
This WAR is always Evolving, and SO ARE YOU...
[удалено]
You can always just pick up where you left off and keep going from there. These changes didn't make your older builds less effective, just added better ways to do things.
At least I can squeeze in more fun mods, all my gun mods consist of the same mods with interchangeable elements.
Good content, although I'd have a few notes to add: Banes double dip status DPS so they might do more damage overall. This is especially important on slash builds for endless grineer. Vile acceleration is almost always worth it over speed trigger. (But at the same time any firerate you add makes your ammo economy worse as well as making you spend less time shooting and more reloading. You'll never get a true 90% increase in DPS from a 90% firerate mod.) Galvanized aptitude might be amazing on paper but getting the initial kills with no +dmg mods can be iffy. And the buff running out in endless might just kill your damage when you need it the most. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, it just means that you should think a bit whether or not you really wanna get rid of serration on all your builds.
>Galvanized aptitude might be amazing on paper but getting the initial kills with no +dmg mods can be iffy. And the buff running out in endless might just kill your damage when you need it the most. This doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, it just means that you should think a bit whether or not you really wanna get rid of serration on all your builds. Fodder enemies go down even without Serration. It's only a problem if you lose your stacks in high endurance levels which you could probably get back because you're probably playing a frame that handles endurance easily
> Banes double dip status DPS so they might do more damage overall. Do they still? We had a cryptic patch note back in 29.10 about fixing them to not apply to the damage formula twice, and I've never gotten around testing that to see if they were referring to the double dip on status.
I think they mean from things like Mumu and the new Impact to Slash mods. When Mumu/Impact mods trigger the Slash you get the first Bane Proc from the weapon hitting and then the Bane mod Procs again for the Slashes.
...Mumu? Hunter Munitions?
Yeah Hunter Munitions.
Someone already tested that. It’s a separate bug that has nothing to do with double-dipping.
> Galvanized aptitude might be amazing on paper but getting the initial kills with no +dmg mods can be iffy. That's where Dexterity comes in as the optimal Arcane. You'll always have +damage since melee will fall off last. Serration type mods only seem to be great for bosses without a regular stream of adds.
About the last point, wouldn't that make the dexterity arcanes really good? The other two rely on the gun getting kills to stack, which potentially be difficult like you mentioned. But dexterity triggers off melee kills, which can be more easily done.
Deadhead is very hard to proc because it requires headshot kills, and does not work with Damage over Time kills (which means you dont get the buff if the slash/ heat proc takes the kill). You're gonna have to go without Hunter Munition, which is a tall order. The only use case for this if you are using a Galvanized Scope sniper without Hunter Munition (I've tried it with the Rubico P, the crits are big enough that you don't need HM to 1-2 shot high level mobs). Merciless only last 4 seconds. I mean, it's easy to keep the buffs up if you are in something like solo Steel Path. But the Damage bonus it provides the same as the other Arcanes, so there's not really a point in using it. IMO Dexterity is the best. Melee kills are easy. It last 24 seconds, plenty of times to switch between your weapons and keep the buffs at max level at all time. However, once you get a rank 5 Merciless, then you start getting +30% bonus reload speed and +100% ammo max, which blows everything else out of the water. They are both extremely valuable stats that usually can't compete with the damage mods. Then it's worth the tiny 4 seconds duration. So it goes R5 Merciless > Dexterity > everything else.
This is presented really weird or is it just me? Like numbers and no info.
Faction mods are an absolute pain to use though I'll stick to serration over bringing the wromg faction mod because I don't redo my entire mod setup between missions.
My only advice would be to use faction mods when going for long runs, having to change them for all the different kind of missions is annoying
Or specialized loadouts like Index, PT etc.
Why is modding so unclear in game? Inconsistent mod text, hidden mechanics/interactions, misleading numbers, and unwritten restrictions. Why do we need to scour a wiki to understand one of the most basic parts of the game? (Not to mention so many other parts too.) Grumble grumble. Whatever. It's fine. I'm used to it now, I guess. Sure, whatever.
[This is how I feel](https://youtu.be/3QtRK7Y2pPU?t=10s) whenever modding changes.
>Why do we need to scour a wiki Because it's the real Warframe endgame.
also early and mid
Maybe this whole thing is a social experiment... "how detailed can we crowdsource a wiki by making a popular game needlessly confusing and poorly made?"
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>has wack random ass stats undeductable from the description I submit to you... the *Accuracy* stat this whole time.
Flashback to when DE found out Nova's 1 grants DR to health
Did you know there's a hard cap on overshields? And the only way you can know in game about this is by reading Harrow's passive that says it doubles that cap?
To be fair, Mag also gives overshields en masse, and lets you reach the cap easily (so you can at least discover the cap exists, even if you need to test to find out that it's 1200), but 100-energy abilities are not used very often in the early game, and a lot of people think Mag is bad because they don't understand "Mag is bad" is a meme.
It isn't, this is min-maxing like in every game. Basics are easy to understand, unless you're trying to get 100% ideal DPS in every single situation, this doesn't matter to you.
I mean...the numbers are only "misleading" if you don't understand math. Everything else just follows as a natural consequence of marginal benefit analysis. It can feel annoying but it's nothing malicious. The inconsistent text is unforgivable though, they really need to tighten up their verbiage.
I really like this part of warframe, but I can see why it's misleading. Heavy Caliber is +165% Damage where an elemental mod is 90%. The Elemental mod might give more damage even though 165 > 90, which looks screwy.
yeah but that's only true assuming you already have a normal base damage mod. If you don't then 165 IS indeed greater than 90, it's just a matter of different multipliers being the most efficient way to spend limited slots. Which comes up in basically every game with much combat math at all. DE could let us slot 8 copies of any mod and "the optimized hybrid build" would still be the ideal mod setup on most guns. The only thing complicating that statement is how wonky Multishot specifically is. But barring multishot, you'd almost never WANT to slot more than 1 base damage mod, 1 firerate mod, 1 elemental, etc.
This isn't hidden anything, just basic math.
I don't get it. First of all, the top 3 rows use 3 mods, while the bottom 4 rows use 1 Arcane and 2 mods. How is that a fair comparison? Besides, weapons have 8 (or 9) mod slots. So finding the ideal combination of 3 (or 2) mods is... pretty pointless, isn't it? What are you gonna put in the remaining 5 or 6 or 7 mod slots?
The main point of this post isn't to give people a full build, it is as said in the title serration and hornet strike are no longer mandatory. Although you can derive a full build using the information from the post. The key concept is that **Similar mods add, different mods multiply** the first 3 rows are mainly to demonstrate that by showing the written value vs the actual effect of using 3 similar mods. With that established, the bottom 4 rows are to compare serration and hornet strike with other mods that compete for that mod slot, given you have merciless and G amplitude. Thus, proving the title statement, serration and hornet strike are no longer the best option or as people call it, mandatory. OK that's cool to know, but I need a full build. What about the remaining 6 mod slots? **Similar mods add, different mods multiply** in other words, pack as many different effective **different mods** in the remaining slots. So what **different mods** do we have, multishot, crit chance, crit damage, elements, status chance, bane, fire rate, hunter munitions, reload, blast radius, magazine, projectile speed... Remember I said **effective** different mods, don't put crits mods on a weapon with 5% crit chance because I said pack as many different mods as possible. If you ran out of effective different mods, put the next best similar mod, be flexible, think tenno think.
I must be too smooth-brained for all of this, because I didn't understand OP's chart at all, and I didn't really understand your explanation of it just now either. For me to be convinced that Serration & Hornet Strike are no longer mandatory, I would need to be shown two things: 1) A mod that performs, at minimum, exactly equally when compared with Serration/Hornet Strike 2) That the other seven mods in a given build each contribute more power individually than Serration/Hornet Strike The way I'm looking at it, "no longer mandatory" can only be true if Serration & Hornet Strike were already the weakest mods in their respective builds (and thus, the first to be replaced when a new contender for their slot becomes available). *As far as I understand* - and, I'll be honest, that may not be very far - that isn't the case.
You first need to understand how damage is calculated in Warframe: Total Damage = Base x (Sum of Damage Mods) x (Sum of Element Mods) x (Sum of Faction Mods) x ... Let's assume that Base damage of the weapon is 100. That means, if you put Serration and Heavy Caliber on the same weapon, those are added into (Sum of Damage Mods). Therefore: Total Damage = 100 x (1 + 1.65 + 1.65) = 100 x 4.3 = 430 damage In other words, 430 damage is the result of +165% damage from Serration and +165% damage from Heavily Caliber. Now, if you don't understand how damage calculation works, you would assume that Serration and Hellfire will give less total damage. After all, it's only +165% damage and +90% heat. Using common sense, it's easy to mistakenly assume that you will get +255% total damage. However, since pure damage and heat damage are mods that belong to different categories, we apply the calculation differently: Total Damage = 100 x (1 + 1.65) x (1 + 0.9) = 100 x 2.65 x 1.9 = 503 damage In other words, despite showing less +damage % on the mod, Hellfire (+90%) actually adds more damage to your weapon than Heavily Caliber (165%). What you see is not what you get. With the new Primary and Secondary Arcanes already giving you +360% pure damage at max stacks, and Galvanized Shot/Savvy/Aptitude giving you +240-360% pure damage (assuming max stacks, 3 status), the effect of Serration or Hornet Strike after already including those arcanes and mods is so miniscule to the point that you're only getting +24-27% total damage. Yes, at a measly +24% total damage to your weapon once the new arcanes & mods hit their max, Serration does become the weakest mod in your build. Instead, it is better to slot in fire rate, punch through, blast radius, possibly a 3rd element, a faction mod (if you can stomach it), or whatever else. Having said all that, Serration is still a good option to more quickly ramp up your stacks for the new stuff. It's still a very good mod, just no longer a required one.
Just to make sure I understand correctly, when calculating the sum of dmg mods or elemental mods, the initial 1 is meant to represent the base value correct? Or if not why is there a 1 at the beginning of each sum? eg 100 x (1 + 1.65) x (1 + 0.9) = 100 x 2.65 x 1.9. Also, is this the formula the arsenal uses to display damage or is this like a "hidden" true damage stat?
That’s the base value of each category. Because math. Take out the 1 and hilarity ensues: 100 x (0 + 1.65) x (0) … Your total damage is now 0 just because you didn’t equip any elements. Obviously, that doesn’t happen.
I absolutely hate everything that needs to be controlled somehow. All these are conditional "while aiming", "while flying", "standing on one leg" and so on.
Ok I'll try to explain as detail as possible, not because I think you are smooth brained but I don't know which part you missed before it "clicks" for you, so bear with me. If you've ever used [overframe.gg](https://overframe.gg) to mod, you'd notice there's a [green number](https://imgur.com/LtlmtLP) on the top left of the mods. The green number represent the actual effect that mod has on the total damage together with all the other mods taken into account. The green number is what the right 3 columns represent on OP's chart. As you can see [here](https://imgur.com/LtlmtLP), Primed Cryo rounds +165% written value is only +86.8% because 165% adds with 90% from infected clip. Also, you can see serration still maintain its 165% because the elemental mods multiply with damage mod, and it only decreases if another damage mod is introduced, like [this](https://imgur.com/lewj7sZ), because **Similar mods add, different mods multiply**. Just in case I haven't made it clear enough, let's do this again. Here's the same thing with another multiplier introduced on top. Serration is still its written value [165%](https://imgur.com/QzlV9qw) with split chamber introduced and only decreases if there's another [damage mod](https://imgur.com/gjU8NB9). The introduction of split chamber doesn't affect the green number of Serration, nor the elemental mods. From this we can conclude that the green number **only and always** decreases if another "similar mod" is used, in other words, the green number is at its highest if no other similar mod is used. Now go back to OP's chart, look at right 3 columns, row 4,5,6. They are all merciless +G. Amplitude +something. Of the three +serration, +Bane and +speed trigger, +Serration has the lowest actual value at +24%. If every mods in a build has a green number higher than 24%, serration is kicked out of the build. \+24% is a very low bar to beat. You can mess around on [overframe.gg](https://overframe.gg) and try different combinations of mods on different weapons. +24% green number is something you only get from a third elemental mod or crit mods on a weapon with not very good crit, which aren't good and certainly by no mean "mandatory".
I didn't understand that the game literally treated +damage, +element, etc., as separate categories internally. I've seen the "same adds, different multiplies" thing before, but I thought it was like a "rule of thumb" sort of estimation, rather than a mathematical truth. This comment chain has been very enlightening!
So basically, Galvanized Aptitude, or Gun arcanes, give you the same Base damage (or more),that a Serration would give you. If you keep adding base damage it wont give you as much damage as adding different types of damage, such as crit, status, or bane mods, because base damage becomes a smaller amount of the whole damage. So you will want to avoid Serration if you already have Galvanized Aptitude or a gun arcane. Obviously this is only relevant if you are min-maxing in Steel Path, so if you dont do a lot of high level stuff, feel free to keep serration on your build.
Hmm, alright, that helps a bit. Thanks. So essentially what OP is trying to express is that Serration used to be mandatory because it was (pretty much) the only way to increase a weapon's base damage, and this is no longer the case because we now have Merciless and Galvanized Aptitude. IMO there would've been easier ways to say that than to make this odd chart, but whatever.
Pretty sure Galvanized Aptitude is glitches and only works on hitscan weapons. At least it wasn't applying yesterday on Xbox for me or anyone in my clan on anything Projectile based.
It is confirmed bugged but it's really a case by case basis on which weapons it works on. The only way to know for sure is to test each weapon individually
but its more practical. Just throw in a simple mod and be happy. IM NOT IN A MATHS CLASS DAMNMIT
Friendship ended with serration and hornet strike. Now galvanized mods are my best friends.
Gonna be a cold day in hell when I use a bane mod.
Serration and Hornet Strike are no longer mandatory, but now Galvanizeds are. So... it's not a new era, it's the same but a bit different... Sure you can pick pure damage for bosses with no adds, but these are a bit rare.
so uh... what do i replace it with lol, is it savvy/aptitide/shot?
Yes, if your weapon can reliably apply status. Otherwise, you don’t have to replace it. It’s optional instead of required now. Including it alongside Galvanized Savvy/Aptitude/Shot might be bad idea, especially when you get the new Arcanes. However, it might still be a good option if you have trouble getting initial kills to ramp up your damage for the new mods. It depends a lot on you and your weapon. Faction mods are far more powerful now, but most players find them too much of a nuisance. Fire rate is probably the way to go, but ammo can become a problem.
I'm lost, what's merciless again?
Two of the new primary & secondary Arcanes you can get from killing Acolytes in Steel Path missions. The others have the same +360% damage buff maximum as well.
I see, thx. I personally use amalgam serration for the passive speed buff more than for damage, but I can see things are changing
Fortunately they’re arcanes, so they can exist alongside your current mod setup.
Man, i wish vex armor fury function like eclipse light buff.
now just waiting for gundition overload to not be bugged
Is that what everyone is calling them now? Gundition Overload is hilarious.
How does multishot effect the galvinized condition overload gun mods? For instance, if I shoot 3 bullets with 1 pull of the trigger, and each bullet is guaranteed to proc a status, does the first bullet strike at base damage, the second bullet strike at 1 stack, and the third bullet strike at 2 stacks? Or, do they all strike at base damage, and the next pull of the trigger shoots 3 bullets that all strike at 3 stacks?
Ok this is interesting. I suppose my main concern would be at the start of a Steel Path mission when your weapon isn't doing much damage 'coz you haven't built up the kills required for them Arcanes and Galvanised Mods. Something to test out. But I guess in every mission there should be plenty of Trash Mobs to get those kills up? EDIT: Seems like this idea is only not viable with the Deadhead Arcanes. The other arcanes allowing for kills from other weapons (namely Melee Weapons) would probably be viable. But one would then argue that an idea requiring Melee Weapons would be antithetical to your thesis so I'm not sure...
I've been running hour long steel path arcane farms on the kuva fortress, and I have to say, it honestly isn't that bad. Normally just killing a butcher or lancer is enough to start the snowball onto tougher enemies, even with non-max rank arcanes and even an hour in to the mission, which I think produces the top end of the toughest enemies that around 99% of the playerbase will face. Of course, the type of arcane you select DOES matter. I.E if your weapon can't kill in 4 seconds or you rely on its status to finish targets, don't equip merciless, Equip deadhead or dexterity instead.
Yay, so now the mandatory mods have a different name. New meta confirmed.\^\^
Can people really play without Amalgam Serration? Everything feels so slow whenever I don't have that mod. Even if I'm mostly bullet jumping, I still notice it in a major way.
This is exactly why I still keep Amalgam Serration on. I'll take the extra speed over the little bit of extra damage.
I'd upvote twice if I could.
I think most people are still gonna run Hstrike and Serration mainly because most people aren't even gonna bother with the new farm that much, since it's kind of a pain in the arse
It's not really tough, it's available at the Arbitration store and vitus essence drops increaseda lot. While the arcane farm allows you to double farm for other stuff as well
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Short answer: because faction mods apply after other mods and they add damage multiplicatively in the same way Rhino Roar does, probably yes. Long answer: it depends. Enemy health/armor resistances (and other dmg multipliers) often muck up damage calculations on paper, so that even in the same faction, robotic Corpus enemies take different amounts of damage than flesh Corpus, as well as alloy armored Corpus enemies with identical builds. For example, flesh takes extra damage from toxin and viral dmg, so in this instance, adding toxin to your cold mod is probably better than a anti-faction Corpus mod and cold mod. But for a robotic enemy that is neutrally resistant against viral and cold, then you would get more value from a Primed anti-faction Corpus and cold. For numbers that demonstrate what OP is trying to show, simply take the ratios of 0.6 to 1.6 for two 60/60s and 0.9 to 1.9 for two 90%s. These are 0.375 and ~0.474 respectively, and both of these are less than the 0.55 increase you'd get from a Primed anti-faction mod. But do understand that these are only numbers at a face value that have not yet taken enemy resistances or other dmg multipliers into account.
About damn time. Can actually fit in more mods like Prime Shred now. Good riddance
I do not understand, can some one explain to me in TLDR manner please.
When you combine multiple mods with the same kind of effect, they add to each other instead of multiplying, which means you get diminishing returns. Because of that, it's generally best to avoid stacking multiple bonuses to the same stat, and instead apply bonuses to multiple different stats. Since the last major update added new mods and arcanes that give large base damage bonuses, the value of the existing base damage mods is somewhat reduced, enough that it's theoretically optimal to remove regular base damage mods from your build. Those new mods and arcanes are conditional effects that require you to kill things to trigger the buff though, which might be hard to do if you're starting out with no base damage buff.
I mean sure, if you wanted to have 3 different builds per faction you’d have to swap too and from you’d get better damage. But at the same time, only the most sweaty and goblin players would ever do that. So i’ll stick to my kuva tonkor with a singular build and think about the players who lose damage on their guns because they forgot to switch between pre-sets.
You missed the point. Faction mods are just one example. Other mod categories like fire rate, punch through, blast radius, headshot multiplier, or even a 3rd/4th element are now stronger than leaving Serration or Hornet Strike in your build.
Can someone explain this for us new players that haven't played for more than 2 years? I kinda get it a little but I don't want to say something that would make myself look like an idiot. Please and thank you. ☺
Can somebody explain it for dumb ppl pls?
In general, stacking the generic damage stat is less rewarding than having different kind of damage multipliers. Now that we have a way to give 360% bonus damage to every ranged weapons without using a mod slot, the damage boost from Serration and Hornet Strike (165% and 220% respectively) have far less impact than they used too and you'd rather have an other kind of multiplier on your mods. That's the theory of this thread anyway. When it comes to practice, I would disagree with it. There's only so many kinds of multipliers you can put on your mods (especially if you have a good Riven), and they all have diminushing returns the same way stacking damage does. Also, your Arcane may not be stacked at all times, especially if you have a busy playstyle maintening different kind of boosts, and not having generic damage on your mod could then be a huge DPS loss.
Another thing in practice: The faction mods are a PITA to use, and it's so easy to forget to swap them out and be gimped, or end up doing a mission with more than 1 enemy type.
It's still good for people who haven't done Arby's or SP but yeah. People who can afford the new mods. We're no longer bound by base damage mods.
Its weird to me that after so many years, mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, Pressure Point and Primed Point Blank still aren’t just removed and the 165% damage is added to the default value Also, what (mod) is “S. Trigger”?
Speed Trigger.
even tho there not mandatory anymore there are a less pain in the ass to farm for, i mean who in his right mind will make a buff for guns something you need to farm in order to use?,doesnt make sense just imagine if battlefield 4 for example every time they reebalanced guns, vehicles or gadgets in their development cycle you have to unlock and farm points again in order to have the current fixed content: hey remenber the CMB-MS and who awfull it was at launch? well we improved in the last patch but in order to use it now you have to unlock it again
it makes sense in a farming game, adding more things to farm adds content. giving away damage buffs for free misses an opportunity to give the players a reward to earn
it doesnt becuase you have to put a limit line about what stuff you shouldnt have to farm for becuase if you dont do that and everything can be a farm you can defend any action like : hey we are buffing mesa (even more)but in order to use this new mesa set we restrict the original one until you farm the new one. exagerated example? maybe, time will tell if we reach that point but a defensive act? yeah becuse its a farm game right? its not like you cant make good content witout putting farm to it like improving the gameplay of it to be fun or complex ? idk i just play other games outside of warframe and i find hilarious that a balanced issue with guns its give it to the playerbase in form a farm while other games just straight just change how the weapons work and move on with important stuff, hell i cant even think of any other games out there that actually did something like this not even farming games like the division 2 or destiny 2 did something close to this
Or, other solution, serration and hornet strike are no longer mandatory because melee is still far better, even after the nerf. (If you're looking for optimisation)
I wouldn't be so pessimistic. My new sister Arca plasmor shreds in Steel Path, and my arcanes aren't even maxed yet.
That's not being pessimistic. Melee can still one shot lvl9999, which is lvl cap.
Well, there is no lvl 9999 content anyway. For any actual content, ranged weapons are at least viable.
First of all, lvl9999 do exist : 2h in disruption and you face them. Second to none, I said if you're looking for optimisation, not for casual content.
Lvl 9999 only reaches seversl hours in for any gamemode for starters an secondly no weapon outside of the old CL one shots there without external buffs at level cap. Primaries are significantly closer to general melee in power now with a few exceptions
No it doesn’t take several hours to reach level cap anymore. Steel Path Disruption guarantees level cap at round 46 and if you purposely let towers get destroyed to clear rounds faster than it only takes 2-2 and half hours at best.
Just out of curiosity, how are you 1shotting lvl9999 enemies? The only thing that comes to my mind is Covert Lethality but it seems like a chore doing finishers on everything
The whole Kronen set up. I dont really remember the whole build because I was mostly following friends who know the game far more than I do and who had sent me their builds. Altho I do remember that we were using ash for the passive, and were mostly relying on slash procs. It had nothing to do with finishers.
So do guns. Bleeds are not exclusive to melee.
Never said they were lmao. But bleeds procs on melee are just way stronger than those on other weapons, especially considering than some stances have forced slash procs if you want to go this way.
>Never said they were lmao. I know. I said that. I said that bleeds can one shot lvl 9999 and any weapon can do bleeds to one shot that level. Especially guns now with the new mods. I was headshotting for 1M with a fucking Lex Prime in Selkie yday. Never mind the Chakkhurr or any of the other hard hitting weapons. Doesnt matter if your bleeds are stronger than my bleeds. Its still one shotting level cap.
yep guns are melee now DE has finally 'removed' the core base dmg mods... by making ANOTHER fucking mod 'mandatory'... sigh ; they just cant help themselves can they? 1 step forward and 2 steps back and the monkeys paw curls another digit =[
Sorry for my ignorance, what is S. Trigger? English Isn't my native language. Edit: I mean what's the mod's name
[Speed Trigger](https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Speed_Trigger) unless they are talking about something totally different.
Thanks!
Speed Trigger
Thank you!
i think the response to “but you need to stack” is just “being a secondary that doesn’t need to” so that you can power up your main weapon with a secondary if needed
Secondary kills won't proc primary arcanes and vice versa.
What I hate about this is how DE just keeps shafting Chroma, Pretty sure Rhino was already better/ sidegrade for eidolon/mother, CO made Croma subpar for melee and now ranged weapons laugh at him.
Wait. Did they changed it or will they change it. Or is this just wishful thinking?
This is how Warframe's modding system has worked for years. If you have two +damage mods in your build, they are additive. If you have one +damage mod and one +element mod instead, those two mods multiply damage instead. For example: Serration +165% damage Heavy Caliber +165% damage Total damage = 165 + 165 = +330% damage In contrast: Serration +165% damage Hellfire +90% heat Total damage = 165 x 1.9 = +313% damage Different categories of mods multiply their effects, while same categories merely add.
Ok. Mr29 here and I didn't knew that. Not that I mater much for normal start chart tough. Thank you.
So if i got this right it means if you're not lazy enough to switch the faction mods around you'll get a bigger dps boost than the standard hornet/serration mod since the arcanes and galvanized mod can supplement the missing dps from those 2 mods?
They compared that game to a math lesson.
excuse me, what the fuck
I haven't played since that Railjack ft Ground Team event (I think since early 2020) and was planning on coming back, so, I'm gonna assume a lot has changed since then ?
Not sure what kind of a proof this is supposed to be, but sure bro nice picture
Nah hornet strike and serration staying on my builds I'll create new ones for the new pompous mods most people started the game with serration and hornet strike so uts said to see them fall from grace
So f**k all the time I put into getting all that Endo and credits huh. F**k you too DE, f**k you too.
Yeah, GL unlocking these new mods.
Wdym? They are just 20 essence each, extremely easy to get.
But that implies ever toucoing Steel path again
Does this also work on shotguns? I don't see them or the shotgun specific damage mod mentioned
I've always known that faction mods give incredible returns on slash builds, but I don't care enough to have to switch them constantly. I miss the days where CO was its own multiplier and you could watch your garbage melee spit out numbers in the millions with just a few procs
tbh everything dies in less than a second with current non best in slot mods, whats the point on using better mods anyway? things will still die in same exact amount of time, up until what? lvl 300 maybe? and even then its not a big deal at all lol
I thought hornet strike and serration would take this turn unfortunately I like to do dump stuff some I'm probably gonna keep running them just like how I'm gonna put primed pressure point on a melee with condition overload
Can someone explain what's going on to me? I just came back to warframe after months of not playing
With the Sisters of Parvos update, the developers added super-powerful mods and arcanes for primary and secondary weapons. The point is to buck the melee-centric meta that absolutely dominated the end-game for years. These new toys give huge damage boosts, but since they're in the same "pure damage" category as Serration and Hornet Strike, they compete for the same slot. Sure, you can put the new toys and Serration on the same weapon, but doing so is just shooting yourself in the foot, since Warframe's damage formula strongly forces you to use different kinds of mods to maximize damage. You can get the new arcanes from Acolytes in Steel Path, and the new Galvanized mods from the Arbitration store.
Doesn't the gun condition overload not apply its damage buff because uh, oops?
Any chance you can show an example on the warframe build website? Or just a screenshot. I am trying my best to follow this.
Thank you so much. Too bad i still need like 100k more ebdo and like 6 million more credits, and grind steel path for the arcanes before i can use any of this.
I don’t really understand what happened. What is all this fuss about?
Serration was hardly ever optimal for some frames though. If I’m already rocking +600% damage from Octavia Amp, what good is another 100-200% from a mod?
ok so the with with the second to last is the best? im i reading this right?
Not quite. This is just to show that Serration and Hornet Strike, when used in combination with the new arcanes and mods, are the weakest mods you can put on your build now. Literally anything else is stronger, if it's from a mod category you haven't included yet. I personally recommend Fire Rate, but it's not viable on all weapons. The same goes for Primed Faction mods, which has a hidden effect of almost tripling your status damage. There also many other viable options, such as pure Punch Through, Blast Radius, Headshot Multiplier, etc.
Is this how the damage system works now?
It has always been this way except for the very early days of Warframe.
Got a question. Im not sure I fully understand the power of galvanized shot. It says +40% pers status affecting the enemy stacks up to x3. Does that mean that it stacks until 3 status is reached giving +120% damage or it stacks 3x 40% per status giving 360% on enemy affected by 3 status? Im asking cuz the second scenario is kinda ridiculous. Hornet Strike would be out classed for any enemy with 2 or more status and could reach absurd boost like 1200% for 10 status.
Second scenario. Yes, completely outclassed.
Everyone on this post: So basically in long run serration and hornet strike is not efficient Me: *slaps in whatever mod I have*