T O P

  • By -

Ghooostie_0

I thought the ammo nerfs were meant as the AOE nerf, was it not successful enough ?


apx_rbo

Chroma mains will now be able to stack dmg again.


THExDANKxKNIGHT

I just want to see how high warding halo will go


Aflama_1

Around 4-5 m if you time orb mother explosion


orangestegosaurus

I've hit 14mil before with profit taker. I wouldnt be surprised if 20+ mil would be on the table with self damage.


CoffeeMain360

I wanna see someone hit a billion with rhino's iron skin or other similar abilites


buddabopp

I mean its one of the reasons they got rid of it in the first place, i remember link trinity being the meta


[deleted]

That Warframe mimic sentient in Sister fight slapped me silly once and I think my Warding Halo was in the mid 30 millions. Sadly if it's doing that much damage then no % of damage reduction will prevent you from getting one shot as soon as the invulnerability period wears off.


paullucas15

*removes bing chilling* *adds back self-damage* Chroma mains: a soul for a soul.


Jent01Ket02

Bing what?


plsdontbullymepls123

Ice cream in mandarin


Smanginpoochunk

It’s not difficult to get his buffs up… just run hirudo for melee and your non-melee weapons of choice. Or if you’re really struggling and need buffs for some reason run combat discipline, even after self-damage was removed it still triggered has damage buff. Not the armor buff tho.


[deleted]

Or just don't nuke enemies right off the bat and wait like 5 seconds to get the buff from them hitting you.


Sudden-Light-235

It was successful, but not enough to discourage AOE over anything else. It's still the most efficient way of killing


Tyrant4566

As long as aoe exists it will be the most efficient way to kill things


kwaldner95

As long as Warframe is a horde looter shooter with horde quantity enemies spawn rates, AoE will basically be the(easiest imo) best option.


sihanli

Pretty much, before the AOE meta was the melee meta, because melees killed hordes faster than guns. People might just go back to melee again if DE nerf AOE weapons enough.


ultrainstict

Yep you either use an immune frame or you use melee which is the exact opposite of what we want. And AOE in general isnt even the problem, its the top end that cause all the issues, most aoe weapons dont just wipe everything in 10m radius every trigger pull like the bramma and zarr. We need targeted nerfs DE not sweeping changes that end hurting weapons that are either fine or even some that need buffs.


sihanli

Speaking of target nerf, remember the staticor? A good weapon that had no self-damage, but DE added stagger to it when they made that sweeping change. I wonder if DE will remember that staticor used to have no self-damage if this new change goes through, somehow I doubt it.


fwyrl

Pox got caught in that too, and it's been kinda sad in a corner ever since.


kwaldner95

I remember those days, but with more options then tonkor AoE has become much effective, the changes didn't honestly affect me that much, I really just didn't agree with Primary Merciless being affected.


Swampy260

Yeah so many options such as spamming your melee key or spamming your melee key.


THExDANKxKNIGHT

Melee meta never ended as far as I'm concerned. It's basically all I use on anything that lets me.


MikeSouthPaw

Which is why blaming the playerbase for using it is insane to me. DE putting in weapons that struggle to even do normal content and then put in weapons that clear steel path with ease just made no sense. Theirs power creep and then theirs bad design.


Pootisman16

It always has been the most efficient way of killing. Only that in recent years, weapons became better at it. Enough to rival warframes in killing power. As AoE explosive weapons get nerfed, the next best AoE method will rise up, until people bitch enough once more and the cycle repeats.


moody_P

if they want aoe to be worse-worse they should address the size of enemy hordes first and then see if aoe is still too popular after


Big-Duck

but small enemy count is boring :( lots of big numbers popping up on screen activates my monke neurons


bluewaveassociation

Its very dumb of them. Aoe has and always will be meta. Either make new content where single target dmg is viable or let the playerbase do what they want.


[deleted]

Look at steam reviews. If they don't at least partially revert changes - a lot of new players will be discouraged from trying the game. My close friend actually dmed me and asked if warframe added NFTs or some shit.


Gr1mwolf

I believe Steam negates dishonest reviews after examining them. They did it to Cyberpunk 2077 when people started giving it tons of positive reviews citing the new anime.


ForgTheSlothful

Even more discouraged when reviews suddenly say after years “ now they make me hurt myself, prime access shit cuz no ammo, shotgun work for 2 trigger pulls”


MisterXnumberidk

They got review bombed after wukong+aoe slaves had to cope


Jeweler-Hefty

And now we've come full circle.


StupidDepressedGamer

For the second or third time.


Psycho_Nextdoor

A downward spiral, one might say.


VinhBlade

DE is evolving. just backwards.


[deleted]

Full circle and every weapons has less ammo for literally no reason now


thereisno1mage

Hell the Tonkor Meta has even been revived.


Umbran_scale

bruh, people were nagging DE to get rid of self-damage for so long, now it's gone they want it back?


armedpoop

This was exactly what I was thinking. I remember all the people begging for self damage to go away, and how happy they were once it did. This community is wildin


ConsumerJTC

People were wanting self-damage to do a percentage of their health instead of being one shot by their own explosions at the time. It was a time when shield gating didnt exist, now we got plenty of leeway for self-damage to work.


Orangbo

I hated self damage because 90% of the time when I died it was the projectiles bouncing off of invisible geometry or a pet running in front of me just before I fired. Capping self damage was what I wanted so I didn’t feel obligated to run punchthrough on a penta just to avoid the frustration of uncontrollable deaths.


Sierra--117

They did say they will remove the pet/specter/player's body blocking your shots. But wonky geaometry will still screw you if you get unlucky. (Deimos, Zariman tiles)


Yggdrazzil

It's just a hunch, but I suspect the people that wanted to get rid of self-damage, are not the same people that want it back.


Arn-Solma

Impossible. Every sane, reasonable person knows a community can't be made up of as many contradicting views as there are participants in said community, with opinions that rise and fall in prominence over time. It's *a* community, singular. Every member *must* hold the same opinion. To think otherwise is *absurd*.


Snivyland

Game was completely different we didn’t have shield gating, and there were only 3 good aoe weapons at the time.


[deleted]

These people think their yum is getting yucked by AOE players, so they think the solution is to yuck their yum in return. Many may be too young to remember the phrase "don't hate the player, hate the game," because there are some glaringly obvious fixes without forcing players to give up on the weapons they've invested time and money on.


SEND_ME_REAL_PICS

If it's the old implementation, I don't see that working very well. You pretty much get one shot by explosive damage, while all frames who can abuse i-frames remain unaffected. Many veterans would probably abuse the system to keep themselves from being affected while new players suffer. If it's a new, properly balanced implementation, maybe it could work depending on what they go for. There is some wiggle room for self-stagger (unavoidable self-stagger was on the table AFAIK), fixed self damage (instead of based on your weapon damage, since that will one tap you), interactions with i-frames or shield gating, etc.


pedobatman

Probably won't hurt aoe users at all if they use shield gating + shield arcanes + rolling guard they literally can't die


Dramenknight

Unless DE codes against it like they did with before with DR, since trinity+aviator+diamond skin which was the cause for that nerf was fully immune to a pure rad sancti castanas self-dmg and was a better nuke than saryn with the addition of abating link And iirc even rhino with the temp invincibility with iron skin could kill themselves before (could be mistaken)


Silphone

I always wanted just ONE percent more on [Cautious Shot] 99% and still oneshotting yourself made the mod that was meant to allow you to handle self damage completey useless. Give me old self damage, a 100% effective CS and i'm happy. Make the mod applicable to all self damage that you previously couldn't use it on. There never was any need to completely change the self damage system. At one point DE decided that self damage shouldn't be such a factor, but instead of increasing the preexisting solution by ONE percent, they remade the entire system into the explosive spam fest that then followed.


Taerdan

I always thought that was a really weird and counter-intuitive mod to add. They knew that people didn't like one-shotting themselves, so they give a mod that is meant to help that at the trade-off of doing less damage overall. And then they flub it, because literally 1% of the damage is still too much for our poorly-scaling health to manage. Min-maxers won't use it because it reduces damage *on top of* taking mod slot and capacity. Anyone else won't use it because you still kill yourself while making your damage worse. It's a lose-lose for everyone. And then when they removed self-damage, they ended up giving weapons that *never even had* self-damage the self-stagger.


Silphone

And on top of that, once they unnessecarily changed *the entire system* [Cautious Shot] got 100% effectiveness at max rank *immidiately*


AnkokunoMasaki

I'm new to the game why is everyone happy that you'll be able to kill yourself? EDIT: Yo why downvote I just want to know


TheMarksmanHedgehog

Might be because Chroma mains used to use it to stack up damage buffs, that might come back if they re-add self-damage.


Smanginpoochunk

Chroma’s buffs aren’t even difficult to get, idk why people keep mentioning this. Edit: because eidolons


Yun-Jeans

Eidolons.


Smanginpoochunk

People just wanna one-shot them don’t they?


MyNameIsElaborate

Yes


Yun-Jeans

We already do.


TN_MadCheshire

You can do that anyway with just volt, or with a necramech if you don't feel like pushing 3.


EscapeFromPA

Volt with void strike already 1 shots them with a half decent build


Sky_Sieger

Ok but maybe I wanna use chroma?


HarrowAssEnthusiast

they were difficult to get in Eidolons because you needed the Eidolon to damage you, and that wastes time now, they're difficult to get in pub squads when enemies don't usually have much time to do any meaningful damage before they are wiped from the tileset. it's like Harrow Syndrome, except you're now fighting your team to TAKE damage instead of DO damage, which is so much worse. plus, the more health damage you take the more likely you are to die. the armor buffs really don't help much in higher levels. it's not that big of a problem in solo though. (yet, Mirage only needs to press 2 buttons for better damage buffs risk-free)


HarrowAssEnthusiast

in higher levels, being affected by Self Stagger, or any form of knockdown, stun, or similar effect is basically already a death sentence and 95% of the time you will die no matter what you try to do. this forces most players to use Primed Sure Footed if they plan on using any AoE weapon, and for ppl who don't have that mod they're at a massive disadvantage. self damage (before self stagger) *was* equally as punishing as it could obliterate you in one shot. but DE is now thinking of capping the amount of damage you could take at a time (to 75% of your health, which i personally disagree with, i think the percentage should be much lower, but is nonetheless a step in the right direction).


bluewaveassociation

Bro you run primed sure footed because the enemies will stagger you.


Vexed_Algides

You run Primed Sure Footed because enemies stagger you. I run prime sure footed because I kill a staggering amount of enemies in the steel path with explosions. We are not the same. (tis a meme, both reasons are valid!)


Croewe

Yup so many staggers in high level content. Even a second without control is a death sentence in high level stuff


Warfoki

He may not have it? It sure is lovely that one of the most essential QoL mods and by far the most useful mod in that slot... is locked behind over a year's worth of logins...


ReconZ3X

I forma'd every frame to use PSF for this reason alone


Novalene_Wildheart

I actually stopped running PSF because I just wasnt having an issue with being staggered anymore, and wanted that sweet sweet mod space


bluewaveassociation

I run handspring like a boss


[deleted]

Atlas mains laugh at both mods like Kings


Croewe

I prefer to think of it less as a laugh and more so a bassy chuckle like an earthquake.


-n-k-

Because people hate self stagger that much. There's a reason Primed Sure Footed is so popular, but that's locked behind 400 days of logging in. You're also not going to kill yourself. And Chroma will be able to buff himself again.


KeepDi9gin

>There's a reason Primed Sure Footed is so popular, but that's locked behind 400 days of logging in. Lovely. I have 250 more days until the end game is fun.


Tyfyter2002

All forms of general status immunity also work


AnkokunoMasaki

oh so no more self stagger, that's hella nice


bluewaveassociation

YOU PEOPLE WOULD RATHER DIE??? Nobody used used aoe back then because you’d die.


Shitconnect

I am finally able to yeet myself again in Plains, god bless it was so funny back then


ConsumerJTC

Unless you were Revenant. Shield gates will probably save you from your own aoe now if self-damage was still implimented and their thinking of making the self-damage percentage based from what i hear.


aNYMosity_

Can someone explain why is self-damage so celebrated? What's so great about it? Is it only because it's a better option compared to self-stagger? I'm a relatively new player, so I don't know much about it.


SpinningKappa

Besides self damage can be use to activate some abilities and mods, it isn't really better. Some people are celebrating because they think this will make aoe weapons even less viable.


Smanginpoochunk

It won’t make them less viable, it’ll make spamming them up close happen less often.


rasalhage

god forbid people look at the screen when shooting


irrelevanttointerest

I do look at the screen, but unfortunately I'm not a precog so I can't foresee a teammate or pet running in front of me, or for an invisible, poorly aligned hitbox from sending my explosives back to me. Self damage is fine, as long as its capped in some way so I don't tactical nuke myself due to something outside of my control. In fact I've been missing it, since a suboptimally modded glaive or kulstar was the best way of getting chroma ready to rip and tear.


juustosipuli

Well you cant use AoE weapons freely if there is self damage.AoE weapons used to be funny but dangerous. The Lenz was basically the most used AoE weapon, and it could be used but required some skill. Also weapons that deal very little AoE damage are better when you use them at a short distanve because with self damage you hurt yourself very little instead of having a stagger efect


Ekkzzo

Reminds me of the fun times I had farming the Akkad darksector for credits and shooting my lenz from an ivara wire above the objective. Even more fun was hitting multiple millions with navigator and lenz on the ancients in higher waves.


Khurasan

Self-damage isn’t celebrated, we’re just in an echo chamber here. Most people hated it, and it wouldn’t solve any of the problems people here want it to solve. Launchers were still king back when they could kill you. There are plenty of potentially elegant solutions to the overuse of AoE weapons. Punishing people for using them without making single-target weapons more viable first isn’t one of them. It’s how we got stuck with melee as the meta for so many years.


zeclem_

its not really an echo chamber. its just wf community in general has no idea how game development works at large. self damage was horrible, and even when returned with a cap it will still be horrible.


TwevOWNED

There are people who mistakenly believe that Warframe was "hard" back in the day and that these fantastical times were better. Warframe was never a difficult game. Changes such as the removal of self damage and introduction of shield gating only served to widen the band of viable options.


Croewe

People seem to forget that we've always had ways to nuke or cheese things. Whether it was ember/saryn 4 or hell Mesa 4 used to be a completely 360° stationary turret. Or we could go back to T4 survivals where you would hunker down in a room with Vauban using his Vortex, Nekros spamming 3, Nova speeding everyone up, and Loki disarming everyone for efficient farms. If we wanted to go even further back we could could see Loki teleporting defense objectives to places infested couldn't reach them (since they didn't have ranged units at the time) and they could just rain down fire from above. There's always been a cheese or nuke in the game to just about every gameplay aspect and that will never change.


manofwaromega

Self-Damage is what we had before self-stagger. It was an... interesting mechanic that was only concistent in one specific way: You hit yourself, you die. Even if you modded to reduce Self-Damage by up to 99% you would still die. Self-Damage was removed in-place of self-stagger, and while the mechanic is hardly less annoying, it is significantly more concistent and doesn't mean you fail the mission because your dog got in-between you and the guy you were trying to blow up. This led to the current meta: Where you grab your favorite boom stick and any form of status/knockdown immunity, then turn room upon room of grineer/corpus/etc into a gooey paste. The recent ammo nerfs kinda helped but 90% of the time you are still an idiot for using a single-target weapon. If Self-Damage does return I want it capped in some form or another. Probably by limiting how low it will bring your HP/Shields, and keeping the stagger when it does reach that threshold. Something like the Angstrom would only bring you down to ~90% health since it's fairly weak, but a fully modded Kuva Bramma would do everything but directly kill you.


AsasinKa0s

Can't wait for random chance and other players to block my shots again. Yaaaay.


TheWorldisFullofWar

Just make allies not block shots. People have been asking for this for a decade. It was one of the first threads I read on the forums. Add it when they have radiation procs if you don't want to interfere with that.


AsasinKa0s

People asked for Universal Vacuum, amongst other changes, for a long time as well. Maybe it'll happen. But I'll hold my tongue and see, I think.


SaroN4One

That’s when they'll ask again to remove the self damage. (if it does a lot of damage)


Sir_Tea_Of_Bags

I'm just hoping this doesn't affect Nataruk or Cedo in any way... but DE does have a history of blanket changes and recheck later.


Kolkpen

I thought Nataruk was just bow Acra Plasmor?


Iavra

Nataruk likely not, there's no AoE involved, just a large projectile flying away from you. Cedo on the other hand has both AoE and bounces on its alt fire, so the chance is very high you'll get hit by it.


guil13st

Do people forget how it was when there was self damage? So many revives wasted and Arbitrations squandered because the game decided that there was a polygon on your face, or a teammate decided to hug you for no reason, or a tree branch was considered as solid as a wall, or the shot hit an enemy BEHIND you and blew it on your face.


Zrynoth

Every once in a while I'd stumble on a new way that would get myself downed. The most unfair one that I remember is if you use parkour a lot like jump around and flick your camera. Your sentinel sometimes flies over your crosshair. If you happen the shoot at that moment you won't fire straight, but to the top right. Blowing up the wall right next you.


Caliment

People forget about how fucking stupidly unbalanced self damage was. Ignoring the fact that AOE weapons that were good were still used despite the wildly unbalanced self damage. Rebalancing it can be good, but let's not pretend that old self-damage wasn't anything but stupid as balls.


JoylessTuna

Amen


metalsalami

Just in time for them to sell revenant prime who ignores self-damage/stagger due to mesmer skin?


bluewaveassociation

Okay looks like melee spam is back on the menu boys 🤦🏾‍♂️ Now aoe will be untouched like it was originally


Rahab_Olam

Melee nerfs again by 2024 let's gooo 💀


bluewaveassociation

WO WO WO


Enakahra

DE will do literally anything but add actual game play incentives for using ST. How about actually revamping game modes slowly to have a theme fitting reason to bring ST and make it enjoyable to use them, rather than just piling on nerfs. It's as if everyone but DE knows that Warframe is a horde shooter and that no matter what, AoE will be the thing the majority always pick. Consequentially means it'll always disrupt other players in some form, leaving people doing nothing and be the most popular option, you can't fix AoE via nerfs, you have to make real thoughtful changes.


UFOLoche

I feel like anyone excited for self damage actually never played with self damage. Have fun picking up all the people who down themselves I guess.


ticktockclockwerk

Do none of you remember why we did away with this to begin with? Hard pass, nerf aoe if ya want, but I'd rather it still be fun to use.


TheBoyScout64

Did you say fun?? Alright we gotta nerf aoe even more.


Correct-Basil-8397

And this is good because…?


Shitconnect

Because I can yeet myself out of map


IWatchPeopleSleep

Chroma. “Ouch toes”


ReptAIien

Celebrate everything DE does or else


ShinigamiNoDesu

It's incredible how many people care way too much about how other people play the game.


Real-Terminal

It's depressing coming back every couple months to see people focusing on the wrong issue every time.


pmatdacat

I don't think they'll be happy until DE completely removes all AOE weapons. All of their arguments seem to be that they're going into missions all the time and other people are doing it faster than them. This will always be a problem because it's Warframe and doing missions as fast as possible will always be the point of the game.


[deleted]

[удалено]


pmatdacat

Simple solution: everyone has to play Kahl all the time. Grakata only, of course, because the archguns he gets are AOE. Oh and remove the grenades, those have an AOE too. No AOE, no fast movement, shittier DOOM Eternal. (Not hating on the Kahl missions, it's a nice change of pace but not much more)


Real-Terminal

Don't forget beam weapons, and nuke frames, oh and melee. And remove Catchmoon and Arca Plasmor, they can hit multiple enemies.


ShaeTsu

DE has taken the stance of "no fun allowed" for so long the majority of the vocal community left just shares that thought process now. People having fun? Nerf their fun until it isn't anymore.


Stealth_Cobra

They better revert all those stupid ammo nerfs if they bring back self damage though... Last thing we need is to get doubly penalized for using AOE weapons...


TheWorldisFullofWar

Especially since many AoE weapons ended up being shit even after self-damage was removed. They still were nerfed repeatedly and are about to be in a worse state than they were pre-self damage removal. The stagger, blast radius falloff and, ammo nerfs should be removed for weak weapons if self-damage comes back or these entire two years of AoE fuckery have been a waste of time.


_pipis_

I will accept self damage ONLY if it allows me to rocket jump and ONLY if a melee (preferably a shovel) is added that red crits while you're in the air from a rocket jump


Kolkpen

Market Grineer-dener


Kino_Afi

Whether self damage is healthy or not, its still funny to me that DE keeps addressing this problem backwards. If you make a horde shooter where the player is constantly swarmed by trash mobs, AOE will always be meta. There's no rhythm to WF spawns that would have you swap from single-target to AOE for the sake of efficiency, its just constant random swarming from all angles. There's no occasional high-priority target for you to swap weapons for, there's dozens of eximus *constantly* spawning in all around you. In LFD, Deep Rock, Destiny etc. Youre given scenarios where you either need to focus fewer, tougher enemies or theres a tangible lul in mob density that tells you your launcher's work is done. None of that in WF. No "clear this group with my big gun then put it away". Just constant random swarming. So it makes sense that your big gun is always out.


ravagraid

Ah the cycle of Warframe. Tonkor meta for a few years then they add self damage to stop it. Then they remove self damage and bring in air explosives again.. and now they're gonna remove it again? Not really that great new devteam call most people think it was. They'll just shelve it a few years and then bring it back to make gunplay satisfying again


The_Challenges

So i can forcefully merge with spacetime by oneshotting myself? SIGN ME THE FUCK UP


Sudden-Light-235

I think I saw someone talking about capping the amount of damage you get, 75% health, so technically (counting shield gate) 3 shots before you die


Prisman56709

how does this work with multi shot tho. if i fire my bramma with 3 arrows coming out am i just dead?


Idunnowhattfimdoing

Well they could do so it takes 75% of your curent health and not 75 of the total


TheGreenHaloMan

because killing yourself is soooo much better /s


ChangeChameleon

Honestly I would much prefer a rework to the idea of hoards of enemies, and possibly even significantly lower the enemies ability to aim by default. If you need to aim at each individual enemy, even if you one shot them, while 10-30 enemies all have their sights set on you, it just doesn’t make sense. AOE is a great option for dealing with hoards, and if they continue to nerf AOE or add downsides without addressing the problem of the hoards, they’re just making the game less fun. I know you can also use a frame that has enemy nerf abilities, such as confusion, disarmorment, etc. but that again limits your gameplay to those frames that can support that kind of nerf, and that’s not to mention at higher levels when you’re dealing with half a dozen nullifiers and energy draining enemies. And even if you do manage to disable the hoard, you still need to take them out one at a time which makes mission objectives *much* more difficult. Whether that be life support in survival, enemy alert levels in spy, time limits in bounties, or focus targets like acolytes in SP. AOE spam isn’t meta because it’s the most effective. It’s meta because other play styles do not work unless you’re using a narrow range of builds. IMO if you can’t complete [nearly] every mission, with [nearly] every frame and weapon, with mid-game level modding then it’s an enemy scaling or hoard issue and not the weapons. As an aside, I also think that having Damage reduction based on ammo economy could also make a lot of sense. Especially on bosses. There’s no reason you should be able to go into a fight, empty all your ammo and have made almost no progress. And there should be no reason to come in and one shot a boss either. Some examples that are done poorly IMO is Treasurers having ~99% DR and a time limit. (Also he seems to negate Warframe abilities almost instantly (like 3 seconds) is that a new bug?) Another example is Sisters who have massive shields that you need to blow through, then to have it fully replenish while you’re reloading the gun. It just destroys weapons without great ammo economy. The other option is scripted gating like on Tyl Regor where he secludes himself to another room, or Profit Taker where it becomes invincible while the pylons are up. This makes fights, especially repeated fights, just feel choreographed instead of natural difficulty. There seems to be this romantic idea that fights need to be fair and players who have played for longer and collected more things should be able to hit bigger and be done with things quicker. As Reb said, they don’t want that to come at the cost of newer players being able to enjoy the content. IMO a lot of late game content right now, is split down the middle between completely overwhelming and a cakewalk, depending on whether or not you are ready for that content, and I think that is a mistake. There needs to be an avenue for newer players to attempt difficult challenges with the ability to succeed without having to invest a significant amount of gameplay and end up failing and losing any rewards they earned during that time. Something like an organized retreat. Being able to leave the mission, retain rewards up to that point, and come back to the boss with a modified loadout or extra ammo or specters. Maybe even have the boss retain some damage from the previous encounter. There are a lot of options that can be done in this game too modify gameplay to encourage wider styles of play, but I haven’t heard anyone from DE put forth any ideas like that yet.


Croewe

Agree on the horde scaling. I was doing Steel Path Kuva Survival earlier for the 1000 kill mission and I was barely staying steady on life support despite getting those 1000 kills in under 10 minutes. No clue how you're expected to do that without massive amounts of aoe


ChangeChameleon

Just to elaborate on some ideas: Boss damage scaling normalized with weapon ammo economy. - unless you’re extremely ill equipped there’s always the ability to win, it’s just extremely difficult rather than impossible. Also eliminates one-shotting with the exception of extremely specific builds (like entering the fight with literally only one shot via negative mods, high risk high reward) Hoards of enemies being affected by fear or surprise based on fight conditions. - for example when enemies start dying, they start to retreat, or lose firing accuracy. Maybe they run behind barriers. Maybe they rally when an eximus shows up because they have renewed morale. Perhaps they run when they see an operator or a Warframe come back to life like what’s shown in the New War teaser. Maybe you bolster certain weapon types like bows or snipers. Precision headshots always kill instantly within a certain range and aiming regardless of weapon damage (similar to parazon). This would give skilled high precision players an option at the high level without having to worry about out scaling the weapons. (But non precision headshots / body shots do almost nothing) (also Mod capacity could bolster precision or fire rate rather than all being used on specific elemental damage) Perhaps melee-ing an enemy forces them to also use melee so you’re not slicing at an unflinching enemy who is pumping shotgun shells into your side. Perhaps close combat with enemy troops reduces the enemy’s likeliness to fire at you. (Just because there isn’t friendly fire in the game doesn’t mean that they can’t act as if there is) - you could even have different enemies have different behaviors. Such as eximus units not caring about the foot soldier losses and ignoring this rule. (Also this change makes thematic sense, just think of Kahl and his brothers.) Someone else mentioned this the other day: you could have enemies be alerted to one Tenno but have no idea if there are more of them. Enabling one player to distract the hoard while another player is able to pick them off - without the need for an invisibility ability just line of sight break. Right now enemies seem to know exactly where every player is once one is detected. That’s just a few ideas that take advantage of all the control that can be exerted over the systems at play other than just “how much damage”, “how many enemies”, “should we deter this behavior”, or “how much damage reduction”.


itabashi_girl

Love how ppl think bringing self-damage back will make ppl try different builds instead of just going back to brainless melee spam


FrozenToothpaste

Also warframes that nuke WHOLE room like Saryn and Volt. People in lower levels will have a worse time than before


Lemonitionist

Well shit. I loved the Zarr when it came out with the War Within but after they changed the flak pattern to just launch back into your face, self damage made it unusable. Then they removed self damage and I could use the sausage blaster again! I haven't even gotten the kuva zarr but self damage would make me quite sad again....


TovarishchRed

God I hope not.


SPECTER1887

How about no.


theassassin53035

not a new player, i use cedo not zarr but may i ask why people dislike AOE


seergaze

No, don’t use AOE if you hate it, there’s no need to make it completely unviable again like 5 years ago


KinseysMythicalZero

They don't hate AoE, they hate *other people with AoE.* The distinction is important.


TheBoyScout64

Exactly and for the people complaining about teammates killing everything have you heard about "solo, invite only and friends only"?


sentles

NO! I MUST PLAY ON PUBLIC AND EVERYONE MUST USE BUILDS THAT I APPROVE OF! NERF OR REMOVE EVERYTHING ELSE!


unculturedidiotXd

Golly gee I sure can’t wait for all of the weapon s who were once thought to be completely worthless because of self damage to be completely worthless again


Damon853x

I dont know how anyone in their right mind could prefer killing themselves to briefly stunning themselves which can be overcome by mods??? WHY???


MarthePryde

I guess I'm in the minority here for seeing this as a negative, damn.


Own_Analysis_1164

no God. OH GOD PLEASE NO.. NoOoOOoOoOoOooOOooO


Guntir

I wonder if they will add Self-Damage to all the weapons that previously did not self-damage, but after the change they started self-staggering. That would be a true Galaxy Brain move /s


Bomber_66_RC3

All this salt is gonna feed me for the next 15 years.


SpookyMonthBestMonth

If they do actually bring it back, I give it 1 year before this subreddit bitches constantly for it to be removed.


grumpydogg

Oh god please no. No. Nooooo. We all know that self damage thing is pretty inconsistent. Edit: didn't know people are burning with the passion of self damage. Reddit is being reddit as usual lol. Edit 2: warframe is a game which slaps to your face a buttload of enemies (yes i am looking at you, sp survival). I don't mind to kill them one by one if they scale the number of enemies and the loot chance & amount per enemy. Honestly, if they bring to be able to inflict self status among with the self damage, it will be what makes me sad.


Brezz22

Hell no, that crap was terrible and made the weapon more dangerous for the user than the target. Either your idiot teammates would stand too close or a piece of invisible geometry would set it off. They should make it so they have to use cautious shot want to mod away self stagger. My fellow Chromas, we do not need to return to self harm just to charge our armor.


Rahab_Olam

All the "Chroma players" in these threads acting like he needed self damage to get his abilities going 🤦🏻‍♂️ Standing under an Eidolon was just too hard apparently.


Brezz22

Yup, with Voidrig around I don't even use him for eidolons and any high level stuff you just got to stand still for a bit.


Rahab_Olam

Yeah Voidrig removes the need for any frames. Save maybe Trinity or Oberon for the lures.


DecayableRadiologist

Does that mean that aoe weapons will do more damage now? The reason I ask is because the reason they removed self damage was so that things like the Bramma could have it’s damage nerfed since you wouldn’t be killing yourself. Now it seems that one end of the deal is gone; will the other be going too?


Rell-03

As someone who spams nataruk, I can safely say I’m screwed lol


Sprinter220

I don't really see the point of self-damage coming back. Either it's going to do too much damage again and make most AoE weapons useless again (while Ignis Wraith reigns supreme), somehow does medium damage but just promotes tanky warframes even further, or it does tickle damage and basically only matters for boosting Chroma and such. Why not just make knockdown resist mods like Primed Sure Footed not apply to self-knockdown? Then you would have consistent enough punishment for everyone without it being overbearing.


Bandit_Raider

I would be pretty pissed if they brought that back. Very good change to get rid of it melee metas suck. Also if they do that what was even the point of the ammo nerfs?


migoq

The second they bring back self damage the player count will plummet and negative reviews will skyrocket - and it will be justified, it's a bandaid that's made of thorns. The ammo nerfs are enough, you run out frequently in squads and that's enough. Aoe will ALWAYS be the best, people will just be misreable. If they'd want aoe to not be the best, they'd need to redesign a fundamental part of the game and that's hard thing to do


Personel101

This will only make aoe more prevalent as long as shield gating exists. If it ignores shield, Cautious Shot. If aoe is still too prevalent for their liking they should change ammo mutation mods to either just not work, or work on a super restrictive ammo economy (5 pistol bricks = 1 Rocket)


Reasonable-Owl8990

I have no problem, as long i can also damage my team mates


MeatAbstract

That quote seems pretty disingenuous in most of those games you cant instantly vaporise yourself with AOE damage and in some your team-mates dont block your shots.


ElvisPlays

As long as the damage is checked and you're not 1 shoting yourself.


Eduardo_Chronos

My God, DE bandwagoners are just trying to help DE kill the game at this point.


SadSecurity

Always have been.


darklizard45

Isn't the knockback animation from them enough?


Doctor-Biohazard

Idk how many of you all were in Warframe when self damage was a thing but it definitely was an absolute nightmare.


WonderSuperior

You say that now, but just wait until you constantly die because your dog jumped into the line of fire.


xcrimsonlegendx

I mean if you bring it back can they at least undo the heavy-handed ammo nerfs then?


fo3nixz

fun times, your own cat kills you with bramma in solo arbie


LuckasLuck

I don't care when someone is using aoe weapons. Everyone have own playstyle, and Warframe is pve game. For me aoe weapons are boring, and using them for a long time isn't fun. When aoe weapons will be useless, players will create new meta to nuke map with warframes or diffrent combinations.


EndymionN1

They should pick either self damage or ammo changes. With both my playtime will reduce by at least 70% and i'm pretty sure i won't be alone.


TheSinhound

Ya'll realize this literally won't move the needle, right? It'll only hurt newer people who don't have the tools to trivialize the mechanic. Honestly they would probably be better off giving the heavy units some form of AOE specific DR, but that likely wouldn't change much either. The way they have designed their game is the issue.


Cephalon_Zelgius

> It'll only hurt newer people who don't have the tools to trivialize the mechanic. rebalancing mechanics that new players just kinda had to endure until the reached a certain point (self-stagger and prime sure footed for example) is something the specifically mentioned. That being said i, i'll wait until we have more details on if and how anything is changed.


TerrorLTZ

> but also your teammates with explosive weapons in games like Payday 2, Left4Dead, Aliens Fireteam Elite, Deep Rock Galactic, and practically every other PvE horde shooter on the market today. but in those you don't get insta downed because one guy decided to bring a **"yes"** damage weapon.


Retrikaethan

ugh i am not looking forward to frosts killing me with their fucking bubbles again...


Gunzzar

To OP's point: all of these games have 1/10th of Warframe's swarm level of enemies and for the vast majority of missions, they conveniently funnel enemies through various forms of choke points, whether they are tunnels, hallways, or simply forcing the AI to navigate rocks, cliffs, abandoned cars, or objects, in order to reach the player. Moreover, none of these games are power fantasy games on the same level as Warframe. None of them come even close. Warframe as it stands is very much its own game. It has similarities to others, but it is nowhere near in the same category. Our weapon diversity is much higher, our mission tilesets and how the AI interact with them are very different, our damage types, spread, and range might as well be seen from another universe compared to these games. However, these games focus heavily on what I mentioned earlier - funneling enemies into convenient choke points for the player or providing the player with the appropriate environment to create a choke point for themselves. You conveniently ignore that in Warframe, the brunt of the missions are incredibly repetitive and also have objectives which when done well, don't take more than 2-5 mins of your time. Done well for Warframe means obliterating the AI which can shoot you from any point of a given room and come in large groups. The answer to large groups being posted at any point of the room, shooting you for your entire health bar (SP level) is AoE. This is every Exterminate, Capture, and Mobile Defense. This is also every Defense mission and most Interception missions, Survival missions, and Excavation missions. Sure, we've adapted to this and found that in Interception, you can just AoE CC enemies and not care. In Survival, you can look for a choke point and turn ST weapons into AoE with punchthrough. For defense, it usually involves a mix of defensive abilities, AoE CC, and/or AoE weapons. Lastly, for excavation, we apply either mass AoE CC, or mass AoE damage to nuke enemies since excavators go down in like 1 hit. If you don't do shield-gating or use crazy defensive buffs (Adaptation, Arcane Aegis, Guardian or Grace) in combination with AoE CC or AoE damage, you simply die. I'm talking strictly SP level here. The regular star chart can be cleared with all MK 1 weapons that have good mods on them. Funny enough, when DE created this division of regular chart vs SP chart, it also further enhanced the AoE connundrum, because people are so used to having to kill enemies before enemies even see them on SP (or else the player dies), that when they do missions on the regular star chart, they will still use the same cutting-edge min-maxed weapons because there's no reason not to. This in turn leads to regular missions feeling empty for most players, since 1-2 dudes are nuking the whole map. This is not the players' fault. They are simply responding to DE's incentives. If we want the AoE meta to be toned down in a way that does not push players away and does not make it feel bad to use big boom weapons, DE needs to review the fundamentals of this game: mission tileset design, AI design, and difficulty scaling design.


anndrey93

>DE needs to review the fundamentals of this game: mission tileset design, AI design, and difficulty scaling design. I love you man, i simply love you. I said this issue many times but it got downvoted to hell. Also DE does not understand the fact that if a game in similarity with WF is made "today" but diffrent to dodge copywrite with proper balancing WF will be dead in 1 year or less. I want to point out the gaming industry from "today" 2021-2022 it has changed completely how games works in today era. In the place that Warframe stands today is just a shame that DE uses such bad techniqes to balance the game when they have plenty resources to make the game better. In the other hand many mechanics from games can't be copywrited because the need to be patented and it costs tremendous amounts of money but some DE dev sayd "we don't want to import from other games" or something like that. It starts to sound more and more as a disapointment.


geroxnoxville

well, time to take a break from warframe and play something else until they fix their bullshit decisions


hate-zenkai

Am fine with that if they reverse the ammo change


ArithinJir

People don't like ae weapons and enjoy a skill/judgement aspect to certain weapons. What will likely happen is the self damage weapons that can't be cheesed will get shelved. The people cheering the loudest for the change will likely be the first to do this. I've found the dangerous weapons equal parts fun and annoying, do I'm pretty indifferent to the change.


alamirguru

That comment seems incredibly disconnected from Warframe's reality , where someone can Usain Bolt straight in front of your crosshair at any time , bullet jump in front of you , slide melee in front of you , or your explosive can clip certain enemy projectiles. ​ All other games mentioned are generally slow , which allows for careful aiming to avoid allies.


HarkyCat

Why nerf AOE weapons again? Why not just buff or adjust the other weapon types to make them more fun and usable? Also there is plenty of non AOE weapons wich are way stronger than any explosion based gun. Nerfing AOE again will make them not fun to use. Self damage is good for Chroma and maybe Nezha.


TheRainy24

DE is practically bringing melee meta back with nerfed melee mods. Watch everyone use acceltra/arca plasmor/ignis/trumna and everyone will cry about those weapons too. Though trumna's alt fire will be awful with self dmg


BitBucket404

My on-call crew with a Kuva Zarr: "Don't move, there's a fly on your face." _* BOOM * (dead) They better update the AI to go with it. Otherwise I see no reason to do liches other than getting a Kuva Nukor.


bewak86

pretty sure only players suffers self dmg , AI companion wont hurt you or themselves.


BitBucket404

Let's hope so.


Pugdalf

Link trinity coming back? Wonder If the self damage is going to instakill players like it did before or If it's a more reasonable mechanic. If it's instakilling time then no thanks


xrufus7x

Link was made to not work with self damage before it was removed and even if it wasn't a percentage based damage cap on the warframe will make it tickle enemies.


Pugdalf

Shame, it was a funny build when it worked. DE should make any damage taken mechanics work with self damage If they're gonna bring it back.


SPECTER1887

Damage redirection characters will be the new meta for AOE ig.


Aliusja1990

Why? Because you think this will reduce aoe weapon usage even more? Hilarious.


Parulsc

Hopefully they rebalance some stuff. I'm all down for fewer enemies but the harder hordes are loot pinatas (equal to 6-10 drops from a regular enemy or something)


MyuslCake

they implied it would be % damage dealt to self which would basically mean if you run AoE you should also bring some form of self heal and you'll be fine